Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Ninjask or Shedinja are both relatively underrepresented, Skarmory too. Slugma I don't think gas any tests, Barboach is fairly set but wouldn't hurt. Volbeat/Illumise underrepresented, any of Bellossom/Plusle/Minun could use one more. A modern view on Flygon might be beneficial. Wailmer very underrepresented too.
I could help here. I have bearly start my run so i can swap electrike for plus/minun and maybe seap seviper for whatever you feel like!
 
that's gonna be really fun
check back through the thread for posts by Its_A_Random, he actually found it quite decent

I want to ask for Nincada, is it optimal to hold off evolving it till level 25 so both Ninjask and Shedinja have SD? Or is it better to just evolve straight-away?
Up to you. iirc the last time I used Ninjask I evolved right away, I believe others have waited for Swords Dance
 
For sake of reference, I've marked down everything on the tier list as "settled", "consensus", or "questionable"; where settled means that there's been enough agreement that this would be very difficult to change, consensus means that most trend to this ranking but its possible for innaccuracies, and questionable means that this needs testing to confirm.

I'll note here that this is my personal evaluation as someone heavily involved in this project and does not reflect the opinions of the thread head in Merritt

S
Abra - settled
Mudkip - settled
Ralts - settled

A
Abra (no trade) - consensus
Groudon - n/a
Kyogre - n/a
Rayquaza - n/a
Shroomish - settled
Torchic - settled
Zangoose - consensus (only because of relatively small pool of Ruby testers, effectively settled)

B
Absol - settled
Barboach - consensus
Carvanha - settled
Chinchou - consensus
Electrike - consensus

Heracross - questionable (strong argument for A tier)
Machop (trade) - questionable (limited runs)
Magikarp - consensus
Magnemite - settled
Makuhita - settled
Marill - settled
Oddish (Vileplume) - settled
Slakoth - settled
Staryu - consensus
Taillow - questionable (strong argument for C)
Tentacool - consensus
Treecko - consensus
Wingull - consensus

Zigzagoon (RS) - settled

C
Doduo - settled
Geodude (Trade) - settled
Machop (No Trade) - questionable
Meditite - highly questionable
(hardly any runs)
Numel - consensus
Oddish (Bellossom) - consensus

Pikachu - questionable (arguments for any of B, C, D)
Psyduck - questionable (limited runs, closer to consensus)
Skarmory - questionable (limited runs)
Spoink - consensus
Trapinch - consensus

Tropius - questionable (placed mainly for HM utility)
Voltorb - consensus
Zigzagoon (E) - settled
Zubat - consensus

D
Aron - settled
Baltoy - consensus
Corphish - questionable (limited runs)
Geodude (No Trade) - consensus
Girafarig - consensus
(mild argument for C)
Grimer - settled
Gulpin - settled
Kecleon - questionable (strong argument for E)
Koffing - settled
Lotad - consensus (strong argument for E in my personal opinion, Lombre fucking sucks)
Lunatone - questionable (limited tests)
Poochyena - settled
Pinsir - questionable (limited runs, Ryota makes a good case for higher placement)
Roselia - consensus (limited runs, clear comparables in the Oddish line)
Shuppet - consensus
Solrock - questionable (moderate argument for E)
Spheal - consensus
Swablu - settled
Torkoal - settled
Wailmer - questionable (limited tests)

E
Cacnea - settled
Castform - consensus
Duskull - settled
Lileep - questionable (possibly F)
Mawile (R) - questionable (minimal runs, lack of Ruby testers)
Minun - consensus (argument for higher placement)
Natu - consensus (argument for D)
Nincada (Ninjask) - consensus
Nincada (Shedinja) - consensu
s (limited runs)
Phanpy - questionable (no Ground attacks until Earthquake is *really* bad)
Plusle - consensus (argument for higher placement)
Regice - consensus
Sableye - consensus

Sandshrew - settled
Seedot - settled
Seviper - consensus
Skitty - settled
Snorunt - consensus
Vulpix - settled
Whismur - settled
Wurmple (Beautifly) - settled
Wurmple (Dustox) - settled

F
Anorith - settled
Bagon - settled
Chimecho - consensus
Clamperl (No Trade) - settled
Clamperl (Gorebyss) - settled
Clamperl (Huntail) - settled
Corsola - settled
Feebas - settled
Goldeen - settled
Horsea (Trade) - consensus (limited runs)
Horsea (No Trade) - consensus (limited runs)
Illumise - consensus (limited runs)
Jigglypuff - settled
Luvdisc - settled
Mawile (E) - settled
Nosepass - questionable (strong argument for E)
Regirock - settled
Registeel - settled
Relicanth - questionable (minimal runs, test needed for E vs F)
Rhyhorn - settled
Slugma - consensus (limited runs)
Spinda - settled
Surskit - settled
Volbeat - consensus (limited runs)
Wynaut - settled
 
Looks like I made a bit of slip with testing Gardevoir. Hopefully I can provide some more insight on Graveler (not Golem) and Pikachu. If a Pokemon is listed as N/A, does that mean no one has tested it or is it not up for discussion?

Team: Grovyle Lv28/Kirlia Lv28/Graveler Lv31

Grovyle: Absolutely no way it can deal with her.

Kirlia: Not good. It can 2HKO Numel and Slugma, but Overheat and Magnitude will likely 2HKO it. It is a lost cause against Camerupt and Torkoal.

Graveler: No trouble at all. The only possible threat is Magnitude on Numel, but it will likely be too weak against Graveler's defence. Magnitude will 1-2HKO everything depend on what you roll with the move.


Team: Grovyle Lv28/Gardevoir Lv30/Graveler Lv33

Grovyle: Far too frail to deal with anything. Even Facade from Spinda will 2HKO it. While it can 2HKO Spinda with Strength, the other Pokemon in his team will survive most of its attacks and 1-2HKO it with Facade.

Gardevoir: Has to be Gardevoir on this fight. Kirlia is too weak and frail. As long as you set-up a couple of Calm Minds (which is easy to do if Ralts has Trace as it can copy Spinda's Own Tempo, preventing it from getting hit by Teeter Dance), then it should be able to OHKO everything except Slaking which will be 2HKO. By then, Gardevoir will be able to stomach at least one Facade.

Graveler: Not great. It can deal with everything that isn't Slaking provided that the player gets lucky with Magnitude. At this point, weaker Magnitudes will deal pitiful damage against Pokemon used by bosses, limiting Graveler's here. It has no chance against Slaking thanks to counter. It could theoretically set-up Rollout, but it is under risk of Spinda's Teeter Dance, which could ruin its sweep.


Team: Sceptile Lv36/Gardevoir Lv37/Graveler Lv36/Raichu Lv27

Sceptile: Bad. The most it can do is Strength to 2HKO Swablu and maybe a Leaf Blade 2HKO against Pelipper. It does very little damage against the other Pokemon whilst being susceptible to a 1-2HKO from Aerial Ace.

Gardevoir: Excellent. As long as you make a minor detour to get Thunderbolt from Wattson for turning off the New Mauville generator, then should be able to OHKO everything that isn't Tropius or Altaria. Even with those two though, Psychic should be able to 2HKO both of them. Altaria will likely be too busy setting up Dragon Dance to fight back against it.

Graveler: Surprisingly bad for a Pokemon that can deal super effective damage against Flying types. While it can potentially OHKO Swablu, the rest of the team is well-armed with moves that 1-2HKO Graveler. In Skarmory's case, Graveler can't even do anything to fight back against it.

Raichu: It can be used against her, but the player has to make a long detour to Lilycove in order to do so. If they're willing to do, then it is effective against most of her team as to be expected, but Altaria will likely OHKO it with Earthquake and it can't do much against Tropius. I'd maybe wait until after you beat her to go after a Pikachu seeing as it won't be terribly useful here.


Thoughts so far:

Treecko
I'd still say it deserves a B, but I wouldn't object to a C either. It can't really do much to any of the post-Roxanne bosses so far outside of spamming Strength on some of their weaker Pokemon. Against most opponents though, it can 1-2HKO most of them with Strength and Leaf Blade is handy against the growing amount of Water-types. One annoyance with Treecko compared to the other starters is its reliance on contact moves, which regularly leaves it open to the onslaught of Effect Spore and Static opponents in the game. Hopefully the end-game picks up for it.

Ralts
I can see why S is the settled rank for it. Things get much better for it once it gets Psychic, allowing it to OHKO most opponents as long as they don't resist or immune it. Once it evolves into Gardevoir, pretty much anything that isn't used by a boss will get an OHKO from Psychic or Thunderbolt if you're willing to go out of your way to get the latter. Even against bosses, it is capable of a 1-2HKO against a majority of their rosters.

Geodude
I am starting to agree with the consensus here. After Flannery, the matchups begin to become a lot more shaky. The low speed begins to catch up with it once the player gets Surf, with plenty of opponents packing Water or Grass moves against it. Despite it walling both Norman and Winona, both have plenty of methods of dealing with it. On top of that, the low power on its moves begins to show. Magnitude is just too random at this point to dish out reliable neutral damage.

Pikachu
With the Pokeblock trick, it is rather easy to catch. To the point where I was able to catch the first one I spotted. Despite this though, it still requires a bit of a detour to obtain, especially if you want to use it on the Electric weak Winona. Fortunately, it arrives at a level where Thunderbolt will just be a few battles away, allowing the player to evolve it once they have the move. I'd say C is still appropriate though. Right now, its current level is far too reliant on matchups to score OHKOs. I'm hoping that things look up for it once the increase of Water-types towards the end kicks in.
 
If a Pokemon is listed as N/A, does that mean no one has tested it or is it not up for discussion?
Just means that it's a legendary and discussing its placement doesn't really matter, they've been in A for the thread's history with no real desire to talk about it since they perform so strongly in the end-game, but are available only from the end game.

It seems to me like you weren't using Ralts/Kirlia optimally which may have explained your earlier post's comments regarding your view on its performance. Kirlia should be able to sweep Flannery without much trouble by virtue of Calm Mind boosted Psychics, Slugma can't really touch it for instance.
 
B
Absol - settled
Wait what's wrong with this?
Absol to A
Discount Zangoose turned out not that much worse than the real Zangoose, even though Absol is obtainable only during the second half of the game and spends most of that second half spamming its no-STAB return. Because Absol is caught at a high level and can immediately learn strength and swords dance, it requires less experience and babying time compared to some of the early game A tier things. Its amazing physical attack, passable speed, and a moveset of return, shadow ball, and swords dance is good not only for shredding regular trainers, but lets Absol solo Winona, Tate and Liza, Juan, Sidney, and Phoebe. Absol probably can do better against Glacia if the player feeds it vitamins in a more intelligent manner than I did.
Also can Hariyama be A tier? Even though it's outclassed by Breloom, I think its ability to solo gym battles and Elite 4 battles makes it significantly better than all other B tiers (except Absol and Heracross).
 
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Just means that it's a legendary and discussing its placement doesn't really matter, they've been in A for the thread's history with no real desire to talk about it since they perform so strongly in the end-game, but are available only from the end game.

It seems to me like you weren't using Ralts/Kirlia optimally which may have explained your earlier post's comments regarding your view on its performance. Kirlia should be able to sweep Flannery without much trouble by virtue of Calm Mind boosted Psychics, Slugma can't really touch it for instance.
Ah, thank you for the information. With hindsight, I should probably be more liberal with using Calm Mind. I didn't know what people on these boards thought about set-up sweeping and whether or not it is efficient.
 
Ah, thank you for the information. With hindsight, I should probably be more liberal with using Calm Mind. I didn't know what people on these boards thought about set-up sweeping and whether or not it is efficient.
Bulk up, calm mind, and swords dance are all good moves in RSE. Every gym leader (except Tate and Liza) and Elite 4 (except Drake) has a weak Pokemon that just sits there and lets you set up. The only Pokemon that are bad at using setup moves are Slaking (because truant) and obvious physical attackers that can learn calm mind for some reason (such as Relicanth).
 
Wait what's wrong with this? Also can Hariyama be A tier? Even though it's outclassed by Breloom, I think its ability to solo gym battles and Elite 4 battles makes it significantly better than all other B tiers (except Absol and Heracross).
Re: Absol; I believe yours is the only nomination for A tier at this point and it's certainly a plausible consideration but I leave it to Merritt to determine judgement, the other nominations of Absol to this point had been B (my personal opinion is B)

I similarly leave judgement on Hariyama to Merritt, but I personally found (and consistently find) that Hariyama is very underwhelming in the late game due mostly to its very low speed and would not support it rising.
 
Since the things that need to be tested are clarified I decided to alter my initial team to help us much as i can with the tiering.

The team I will be using for my run is:
Beautifly/Minun/Nosepass/corphish/ kecleon/chimeco

I am settled with this and I will update regularly!
 
I really wanna see the argument for Kecleon in D. Pokémon like Torkoal and Wailmer and Roselia aren't good but there's no way they're not miles ahead of this thing

Edit: I also feel like Heracross' late-game status should maybe keep it back from A. Everything else in that tier is either early, early-mid game, or a late-game legendary that can mostly solo the rest of the game. Heracross from what I've read is very good but not early enough nor overwhelmingly powerful enough to suit A.
 
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Re: Absol; I believe yours is the only nomination for A tier at this point and it's certainly a plausible consideration but I leave it to Merritt to determine judgement, the other nominations of Absol to this point had been B (my personal opinion is B)
Did you or any of those other people try using swords dance and return?
I similarly leave judgement on Hariyama to Merritt, but I personally found (and consistently find) that Hariyama is very underwhelming in the late game due mostly to its very low speed and would not support it rising.
This is more of a problem against regular trainers, not gym leaders or Elite 4 members, right?
Edit: I also feel like Heracross' late-game status should maybe keep it back from A. Everything else in that tier is either early, early-mid game, or a late-game legendary that can mostly solo the rest of the game. Heracross from what I've read is very good but not early enough nor overwhelmingly powerful enough to suit A.
Heracross can mostly solo the rest of the game. Its only bad matchups are Tate and Liza, the champion, and maybe Drake. Heracross also has 125 attack and a 75 BP STAB as soon as you catch it, unlike Shroomish.
 
Heracross can mostly solo the rest of the game. Its only bad matchups are Tate and Liza, the champion, and maybe Drake. Heracross also has 125 attack and a 75 BP STAB as soon as you catch it, unlike Shroomish.
Its only bad matchups, then, are the hardest and most important opponents in the game which the late-game legendaries can all deal with to some degree. I do understand the point you're making, but "can't deal with the most important things" does not sound A-rank material to me.
 
Did you or any of those other people try using swords dance and return?
I played mine purely mixed, every other one that I saw used Swords Dance.
This is more of a problem against regular trainers, not gym leaders or Elite 4 members, right?
Both
Its only bad matchups, then, are the hardest and most important opponents in the game which the late-game legendaries can all deal with to some degree. I do understand the point you're making, but "can't deal with the most important things" does not sound A-rank material to me.
Soloing everything else carries weight however. And it's not as though the matchups are dead. Heracross's Brick Break still helps it contribute against Lunatone/Solrock/Shelgon/Flygon (Hera will live a Flamethrower and KO with a boosted BB)/Ludicolo/Wailord/Whiscash; even if it's not sweeping it can still contribute a Pokemon or two.
 
Hello again some quick updates from my run.

I do finish the rest if the trainers near the tunnel where Peeko is (cut is needed), grab myself the Miracle seed and head to Dewford. I found Steven and head to the Gym with Beautifly at Lvl 19. She 1 shoots evrerything with Gust and I challenge Brawly at Level 20. She once again is able to sweep him by spamming Gust without breaking a sweat. This is probably due to the fact I am overleveled but she should be able to do just fine even without that much of a level difference.

I skip the trainers in the Slateport beach and head to Route 110 and get myself a Minun.
Screenshot_2020-06-10-22-04-28-896_com.android.chrome.png
I do fight the team Aqua as well as every trainer on Route 103 and head to the rival battle. Minun sweps his first to pokemons and Beautifly 1-shot Grovyle. After that I head to Mawile, fight every trainer on Routes 117/118 and hit the Gym afterwards. Beatifly (23) can't take a single hit from anything and can't do anything here apart from an occasional Stun Spore. Minun (27) has an interesting fight. It can win 1vs1 vs Voltrob/Electrike. It can even tank a Selfdustruct from Voltorb to much of my surprise! He can win Magneton after burning 1-2 super potions (depending how often it will be paralized or he crits). Manectric is a very interesting fight. I did tried to beat it at lower level when Minun was around level 25 and kept losing because it did set up with Howl and swept me with quick attacks. But while fighting the other three Pokemons Minun grew to 28 and learned Charm. This way I was able to actually beat Manectic by Charming it 3 times and then spam Sparks! Overal a pretty interesting feat for my little Minun! I did burn around 7 Super Potions and a few Paralyze Heals but it's certainly doable!
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Re: Heracross, I did already state my stance before, but I do think that A is hard for Hera because of how difficult it is to obtain, discounting the fact it's already late into the game. A rank would likely be guaranteed if it wasn't for the fact Pokeblock Glitch is not allowed (per OP), but if it were, A rank is more or less the more sensible rank.

Regardless, if you do put Heracross in A, don't forget about Pinsir too, which, by logic, would also go to A due to mirror performance with Heracross (per experience, at least. I haven't had anyone tell me if there's a difference between them so far).

Anyways, I started my run with Slugma / Skarm / Wailmer / Shedinja / Ninjask. I caught Nincada (IVs at bottom of post) and I couldn't get it past level 11 before facing Roxanne, which should be speaking about its performance. I think the Erratic exp group is not making it a good favor early-game, as erratic mons are known to level up incredibly slowly in the early levels (they level up fast in later levels though)

I then reach Brawly.... with a level 14 Nincada. Gotta love Erratic Exp group. Needless to say, Nincada didn't do well here too. I also "skip" May, as Nincada really only takes on Grovyle.

I reach Mauville and go west and east where Nincada finally becomes level 25.....

Team: Ninjask(26), Shedinja(26)

Shedinja: Voltorb has Rollout and Magneton has Supersonic. You are only reliably beating Manectric and Electrike.
Ninjask: +2 Leech Life 2HKOs Voltorb and Electrike. It's unlikely you beat the rest.


vs Maxie

Team: Ninjask(27), Shedinja(27), Skarmory(26), Slugma(26)

Ninjask: +3 Leech Life is a 2HKO on Mightyena (be careful of Sand-Attack), while +2 Dig is an OHKO on Camerupt and +2 Fury Swipes deals with Zubat.
Shedinja: Everything has coverage for it, so you are not beating anything
Skarmory: -1 Steel Wing 4HKOs Mightyena, be careful of Sand-Attack, with unboosted Steel Wing being an OHKO on Zubat.
Slugma: Slugma only deals with Zubat. Mightyena is unreliable and Camerupt has Magnitude.

vs Flannery

Team: Ninjask(28), Shedinja(27), Skarmory(27), Slugma(28)

Ninjask: +2 Dig OHKOs everything bar Torkoal. Just be careful, as Numel may also go for Overheat instead of Sunny Day turn one.
Shedinja: Overheat, only can do something if Overheat misses or Numel goes for Sunny Day turn one (both unlikely)
Skarmory: Swift is at best 3HKO on everything and sun Overheat OHKOs it
Slugma: 3HKOs her Slugma with Rock Throw but nothing else


Team: Ninjask(30), Shedinja(27), Skarmory(30), Slugma(29)

Ninjask: +2 Secret Power will 2HKO everything bar Slaking, though Spinda's Teeter Dance is problematic. Use Leech Life occassionally to heal yourself up. Against Slaking, you can just use Dig and abuse Truant. You should take it down somewhere after 5 hits, but if you areh ealthy, you can also spam up some more SDs to increase damage output. Not a bad matchup, overall, but making it through Spinda decides pretty much everything, as it's the weakest Pokemon of his team and thus makes it the best set up fodder.
Shedinja: The only Pokemon that cannot damage it in any way is Linoone. Slaking and Vigoroth have Faint Attack, wheres Spinda has Teeter Dance.
Slugma: Flamethrower 2HKOs Spinda. Linoone is also 2HKOed, but Spinda is the only one that you can potentially beat, as it can go for Teeter Dance instead of attacking directly.
Skarmory: Steel Wing 2HKOs Spinda and muscles through Vigoroth, which can't touch it. Linoone is 3HKOed. Slaking's only source of damage is


current thoughts on members so far:

Ninjask
SD is nice, but training Nincada is something not even the biggest criminals deserve. My initial opinion is preliminary E-rank. It does have a somewhat ok matchup against both Flannery and Norman, but the latter is very RNG-based and the matchup against Spinda determines whenever you win or no.

Shedinja
Yeah so, performance-wise, "terrible" is a weak word to describe it. Shedinja is incredibly hard to grind against normal trainers, as I have lost against more of them than won, as literally anything possesses some coverage (even Marill...), which should be clearly reflected in how low leveled it was against Norman in comparison with the rest. The only thing where Shedinja really "functions" is spreading Toxics, as it can poison the mon that cannot hit (if it doesn't switch out turn one) and the mon that switches in, as the AI loves to switch around Shedinja. But yeah, Shedinja so far has not proven itself as reliable mon, only as one that spreads Toxics, and I cannot see it any higher than E. Similarly to Ninjask, you also have to train a Nincada.

Slugma
Also been terrible. It wasn't so difficult training it on the route, but at the same time, I cannot say it destroyed them. Its major battle performance is simply terrible and I haven't had it take out more than one Pokemon. Given with a late evolution, I'd say it's in the bottom tiers, with F being possible if it doesn't get its performance together.

Skarmory
Been useful so far. Steel / Flying is a very handy typing that allowed me to do well against Norman. Anticipating good matchups in the future, I can see D-tier at worst currently.

e: forgot IVs:

nincada.jpg

slugma.jpg

skarmory.jpg
 
Update on my run

I go back and get a Nosepass once done with Watson.
Screenshot_2020-06-11-11-38-51-595_com.android.chrome.png

VS Maxie
Team:
Nosepass(30),Minun(30),Beautifly(28)

-Beautifly: 3HKO Mightyena,2HKO Zubat can't touch Camerupt.
-Minun: 2HKO Mightyena, 1HKO Zubat, can win Camerupt at -6 but it must be using physical moves and low rolls for Magnitude, Overheat 2HKOs me.
-Nosepass: 3HKO Mightyena, 1HKO Zubat, beats Camerupt (unless he Magnitute 9-10 twice)

VS Flannery
Team:
Nosepass(30),Minun(30),Beautifly(28)

-Beautifly: 3HKO Numel but Overheat 1HKOs me. 3HKO Slugma and can't touch Camerupt and Torkoal
-Minun: 5HKO -6 Numel, Overheat does around 1/3. 2HKO Slugma. Can't touch Camerupt and Torkoal 2HKO me with Overheat
-Nosepass: 2HKO Numel and 1HKO Slugma with Rock Slide. 4HKO Camerupt depending on the damage range while taking 1/3 from Overheat. Can slowly take down Torkoal while burning potions.

VS Norman
Team: Nosepass(31),Minun(31),Beautifly(28)

-Beautifly: 4HKO Spinda. Can't do anything else. Lineone Bellydrums and KOs and Vigoroth 2HKO with Slash while taking minimal damage.
-Minun: 3HKOs Spinda, Lineone and Vigoroth with spark. Crit from Slash KOs me.
-Nosepass: 3HKOs Spinda and Lineone, 4HKOs Vigoroth. It can slowly take down Slaking, tanking his hits, with potion assistance. One thing to have in mind is PP issues.

Overall assessment of the team so far:
-Beautifly: Apart from Brawly that she was able to sweep she hasn't contribute anything of much importance to the team. She is extremely squishy and stuggles to do damage.
-Minun: He can win Watchon solo and can contribute with some KOs in important battles. It has a vast array of supportive moves like Thunder wave/Charm/Encore that can come in handy. So far doing better than I thought.
-Nosepass: He can tank his way to victory. He can solo Maxie, Flannery and Norman. A solid Pokemon so far!
 
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After a couple of days:

Team: Sceptile Lv38/Gardevoir Lv39/Graveler Lv39/Raichu Lv36

Sceptile: Can 2HKO everything that isn't Xatu. It may require some heavy support against Solrock though as Flamethrower can 2HKO it. Still Sceptile's best fight since Roxanne, which is a bit sad.

Gardevoir: Is fine once Claydol is out the way. Thunderbolt can potentially OHKO Xatu and it can set-up Calm Mind against Lunatone and Solrock.

Graveler: The only member it can deal with is Xatu, and Claydol's Earthquake stops it from doing so reliably. It can't do anything useful against Lunatone and Solrock.

Raichu: Similar Graveler. It can actually score a KO against Xatu, but it can't withstand Claydol's Earthquake and the two rocks are bulky enough to withstand a couple of Thunderbolts whilst taking advantage of its pitiful defences.


Team: Sceptile Lv41/Gardevoir Lv41/Graveler Lv39/Raichu Lv41/Rayquaza Lv70

Sceptile: Can OHKO anything that isn't Kingdra. Sadly, Kingdra can withstand a Leaf Blade and potentially KO it Ice Beam.

Gardevoir: Setting up two Calm Minds against Luvdisc can allow it to sweep the whole fight. The only thing that hinders this strategy is Luvdisc's Sweet Kiss, which can be dealt with using a Full Heal.

Graveler: Lost cause.

Raichu: Similar to Sceptile, but Whiscash also serves as a roadblock to it. Strength barely hits it, and Earthquake will easily KO Raichu.

Rayquaza: Outrage will OHKO everything.


Thoughts so far:

Sceptile
The amount of Water opponents in the end-game are probably the main thing keeping it in B. It struggles heavily on most of the gyms. Even the Water gym isn't a complete walk in the park for it. Still though, having the most reliable Grass move against Hoenn's infamous sea routes is good to have in the late game.

Gardevoir
Psychic/Thunderbolt OHKOs every matchup at this point, and the boss design of this game (having them lead with a weak Pokemon) allows ample time to set-up Calm Mind. This more than makes up for the rockier sections Gardevoir faces as Ralts/Kirlia. I see no reason not to keep it in S.

Graveler
This thing is a lost cause by the time you start the sea routes. Most of the opponents are Water-types and its moves are just far too weak at this point. I'm wondering if Golem's stats make it a little better at this point. I'd still keep it in D though thanks to its surprisingly large amount of good matchups in the midgame.

Raichu
Like Sceptile, the vast amount of Water Pokemon help it out late game. However, if you're playing Ruby or Emerald version, there is a surprisingly high amount of Numel that are bulky enough to withstand a couple of Strengths. I wouldn't say this is enough to put it down to D, but there are plenty of them to make me question a B rank for it. I'd say C is appropriate for now.

Rayquaza
I have no arguments against its current placement. The only thing stopping it from having an S rank is its availability.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
let's continue with run

Wailmer is level 32, rest is 33

Ninjask: +2 Dig OHKOs Slugma and +2 Slash OHKOs the rest
Shedinja: The only Pokemon on her team that cannot hit it at all are Lombre and Marshtomp, if you picked Combusken. The other mons have super effective coverage
Slugma: Flamethrower 2HKOs Lombre and OHKOs Grovyle, while Rock Throw 2HKOs her Slugma. You cannot sweep unless you heal, though
Skarmory: Air Cutter 2HKOs at worst everything
Wailmer: Surf OHKOs Slugma and Ice Beam 2HKOs Grovyle, though the latter is only beatable if it goes for Screech turn one. Lombre can be run through with Rollout if you heal before that.


Shedinja is level 33, rest is 34

Ninjask: Return is needed here, as Slash doesn't deal enough damage to make Ninjask good for this fight. If you manage to set up 3 SDs against Swablu (if it spams Safeguard and/or Mirror Move, good for you), then Return will 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO the rest. Not the most efficient thing but, hey, what else are you expecting from Ninjask. +6 Slash fails to OHKO anything but Swablu
Shedinja: nope
Skarmory: Really good matchup. Thanks to Steel / Flying, Skarmory can just shrug off hits from all Pokemon and muscle through them with Steel Wing or Air Cutter, only stalemating with her Skarmory. In my test run, Skarmory didn't even have to heal to beat 4/5 of her team.
Slugma: Flamethrower 2HKOs Swablu, Skarmory, and Tropius, though, without healing, you are taking out at best two threats.
Wailmer: Not a bad matchup. Ice Beam 2HKOs Swablu, Altaria, and Tropius (also outspeeds all but Altaria) and MW Surf 2HKOs Skarmory. You may not be able to take them down all at once without healing, but you can snipe in a few kills, particularly on Swablu and Tropius.


Team: Ninjask(39), Shedinja(33 - too many opponents hit it super effectively so there was barely anything to train it on), Skarmory(37), Magcargo(38), Wailmer(38)

Ninjask: If you heal with Full Heal after using SD, you are gonna have a high Attack boost with which you can OHKO everything with appropriate move.
Shedinja: Everything hits it in one way or another, so this matchup is not good
Magcargo: 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat with Flamethrower, be careful of confusion, though. Camerupt has EQ so you cannot beat it.
Skarmory: Muscles through Crobat and Camerupt, as both don't hit it really hard. The former has Confuse Ray, though, so be careful. Mightyena has Swagger and slows it down, making this 1v1 matchup unreliable.
Wailmer: MW Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (be careful of Swagger) and OHKOs Cameurpt. Ice Beam 3HKOs Crobat, be careful of Confuse Ray


Everything is level 42

Ninjask: +2 Shadow Ball OHKOs Xatu and Lunatone and 2HKOs the rest. In order to do well, it needs a teammate that will lure attacks so Ninjask can attack safely
Shedinja: Shadow Ball is a 2HKO on everything, but is more reliant than even Ninjask on a temmate that lures attacks, as only Lunatone doesn't threaten it with its movepool
Magcargo: bad. At most it can damage Xatu with Rock Throw, but has nothing for the rest. Even then, Claydol kills it with EQ
Skarmory: Other than Solrock, which has Flamethrower, their team doesn't hit Skarmory overall and thus they generally aim at your partner. Steel Wing is also a 2HKO on the rocks. Good matchup
Wailord: MW Surf is a 3HKO on all the Water-weak Pokemon, due to spread penalty.


Current thoughts on members so far:

Ninjask
This one has been "fine" so far. Erratic exp. group + Nincada period still doesn't help it, but if it sets up some SDs successfully, it generally breaks the major fight, though it's reliant on everything going fine. Still E-tier, in my opinion.

Shedinja
This thing is weird. I am still concerned about E-tier and feel like it may be a bit too much. I think Shedinja is best used as a Toxic staller, given that it generally autowins anyways if an opponent cannot win and it can spread Toxics while they switch out their Pokemon. It's incredibly hard to grind Shedinja outside of water routes and even there some stuff has coverage or Supersonic to make its life harder than it already is. Juan looks like the last good matchup, as, afterwards, Shedinja is likely going to be a huge deadweight at the E4.

Magcargo
Yeah, this is pretty disappointing. It really doesn't do a lot in the matchups and its typing makes it hard to grind it on the water routes, which composes a significant part of the late-game route trainers, thus making it harder to train. The only thing going about it is Flamethrower (and Yawn if you count it?), but to be honest, I can only see F or E for Slugma, depending on if it manages to impress me in some way.

Skarmory
This has been the most useful mon on my team so far. Its typing helps it clutch through many major fights, including Norman, Winona, and T&L. Given it comes not very late into the game, being an alright route cleaner, offering Fly utility, along with the fact Spikes at level 42 will be very helpful for the next bosses (I mean, it has the bulk to set all 3 layers up), as dealing 25% of everything's HP upon switching in is just incredibly handy and only Drake has mostly airbone Pokemon. C-tier at worst, currently.

Wailmer
This.... actually turned out to be a lot more useful. It's got great bulk and hits relatively hard. It also has room to run at least one other water HM other than Surf. By the way, Wailord learns Water Spout at level 44, is that worth using? It has a lot of HP to afford it, but it's not the fastest thing. Anyways, I think D-tier looks appropriate, currently. It's really hindered by late arrival, though (unless there's one with Old Rod? Couldn't find such info anywhere).

e: forgot Wailmer IVs:
wailmer.jpg
 
Last edited:
so we back on the grind.

Caught Machop and Slugma in the Firey Path. IV's below
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Taught Bulk Up and Secret Power to Machop and Flamethrower to Slugma using all the money available until Maxie.

Maxie
Slugma(25): Terrible, Flamethrower 2HKO's but Sand Attack and Bite's 3HKO make Mightyena a very scary and luck based matchup. Golbat smashes you with WA, 2HKO comparing to Flamethrower's bare 2HKO and Camerupt just shreds you, don't.

Aron
(25): Bite 6HKO's and +0 Rock Tomb 3HKO's, possible with good luck. Golbat is a joke as Rock Tomb 2HKOs and Wing Attack/Confuse Ray are pitiful. Camerupt is impossible however, Magnitude wrecks it

Tentacool(26): Bite 4HKO's and Bubblebeam 3HKo's, possible with no crits. Golbat is impossible as WA 2HKO's and Bubblebeam only 4HKO's.

Machop(26): Beats Mightyena, can't beat Golbat or Camerupt because Magnitude 6-8 2HKo's, bad matchup

Evolved Machop into Machamp before Flannery and triggered Guts before the fight
Flannery

Machamp
(28): Guts Karate Chop OHKO's Numel and Slugma and Revenge OHKO's Camerup, it usually Tackles or Magnitudes, you live both. However, Guts Karate Chop/Secret Power only 4HKO's and it KO's with Overheat after all the chip, so Torkoal is impossible.

Tentacool(27): BubbleBeam OHKO's her first three mons, then you die against Torkoal since Body Slam 2HKO's while Beam 4HKO's

Slugma(28): Slugma with Rock Throw spam, but it dies to everything else. Awful matchup

Aron(27): kills Slugma with Rock Tomb and can live 1 Numel Overheat at full and KO with 2 Rock Tombs, but it dies to Camerupt and Torkoal's Overheat/Magnitude.

Needed all 4 members to take down Torkoal, and even then it came down to the wire with Slugma. Taught Overheat to Slugma over Smog. Got Tentacool to 29 so testing it and it's evolution seperatly.

Norman
Tentacool(29): Bubblebeam 5HKO's Spinda while it's Facade 2HKO's, and everything else can nearly OHKO with STAB attacks, while Slaking OHKO's, awful matchup.
Tentacruel(30): Now having actual Defense, Facade becomes a 6HKO while BubbleBeam 3HKO's. The same goes for Vigoroth, meaning Tentacruel can beat one, but not both without healing. If Linoone doesn't click Belly Drum or Tentacruel outspeeds, Tentacruel can 3HKO it with Bubblebeam, if not Tentacruel loses the matchup(assuming Tenty is at full, if not it needs to heal as Facade/Slash 5HKO's). Lastly, Bubblebeam 12-14HKO's Slaking and Facade 2HKO's, avoid. OK matchup, though the ranges might be off because of my ass IV in Special Attack.

Slugma(28): Facade 2HKO's from Spinda and Overheat can't even OHKO it, you die. The others OHKO you, so this is a lost cause.

Aron
(28): Strength's 4HKO compared to Psybeam's 7HKO makes this an easy matchup in terms of damage output. Teeter Dance throws a wrench in that however, as confusion cam make you lose this matchup. He then sends in Slaking next, which either goes for a 4HKO with Feint Attack or Yawn/Counter, which is a wasted slot. Strength comes to a 16-17HKO, which makes this impossible.

Machamp(29): Psybeam suprisingly 4HKO's, but you outspeed so 1 Bulk Up+Karate Chop takes it out. You live any hit from both Vigoroth and Linoone and both die to 1 Karate Chop, though they will knock you below 1/2(unless Linoone Belly Drums like me). Slaking usually Counters so you can Bulk Up again, and then Karate Chop 2HKO's/Revenge OHKO if it clicks Facade.

Machamp easily solo'd this fight, and Tentacool evolved after with the EXP Share.



Taught Surf, Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb to Tentacruel and evolved Aron before May 3, clearing out every trainer from Petalburg to Fortree. No rain on the route.

May 3
Lairon(34): Rock Tomb OHKO's Slugma, 2HKO's Lombre and Iron Tail OHKO's Grovyle: be careful as Leaf Blade 3HKO's you. Great matchup
Tentacruel(34): Surf and Sludge Bomb twice, an easy sweep
Slugma(35): Flamethrower 2HKO's Slugma and Lombre and OHKO's Grovyle, you can actually sweep this with good luck on Lombre not clicking Fury Swipes.
Machamp(34): Karate Chop and then Revenge twice, basically Fighting Tentacruel sweep.

May clearly can't handle any of my Pokemon, so I let Machamp get the experience. Got everyone to 35 before Winona.

Winona
Lairon(35): You outspeed and OHKO Swablu, then Altaria comes in. Earthquake 2HKO's, but Rock Tomb 2HKO's and you outspeed after one drop, making this possible. Pelipper beats you with Water Gun's 2HKO, but Tropius requiring a 2 turn charge move means you can beat it with Rock Tomb. Rock Tomb 7HKO's, with Steel Wing's 6HKO, possible defense buff and Sand Attack this is a lost cause.

Tentacruel(35): Ice Beam doesn't K.O Swablu(loving that SpA IV), but Mirror Move/Aerial Ace does next to nothing(15% most from Ace). Ice Beam 2HKO's Altaria(possible OHKO with better SpA IV) and you live one non-crit EQ, even if it Dragon Dances. Surf 2HKO's Skarm and Aerial Ace only 7HKO's. Aerial Ace 10HKO's you and Sludge Bomb 3HKO's(2HKO's after poison damage). Lastly, Tropius.

Slugma(35): Flamethrower 2HKO's Swablu, it usually Aerial Ace/Safeguard into Perish Song. You can't beat Pelipper which comes in next, nor Altaria due to Earthquake. You can't OHKO Skarmory or Tropius with Flamethrower, so you have to Overheat and choose which one you beat, as Aerial Ace 2HKO's from Skarm and 3HKO's from Tropius. bad matchup.

Machamp(35): Swablu oddly doesn't like to Aerial Ace you if you start clicking Bulk Up, instead going for Safeguard, Mirror Move spam and then clicking Perish Song. By getting to +3, you can OHKO Swablu with Facade, Skarm with boosted Revenge, and 2HKO the rest with Facade. Machamp suprisingly sweeps this as long as Supersonic doesn't cause it to hit itself too much.

Machamp gets the EXP for this match.

Team Rankings

Lairon
isn't much of an improvement over Aron, only really getting a slight speed and power upgrade. Honestly, this thing just sucks, it hasn't had good matchup in any gym barring Winona, and largely has been mitigated to cleaning out routes and having a slow EXP group. I don't see this getting better until Aggron at 42, and even then that's going to have to deal with Juan and Wallace soon, so I think D Tier suits it well, nice physicall wall but not much beyond that

Tentacruel got the glow up it deserved after Norman tbh. Before that, it struggled to deal with anything that wasn't a Water weak type and basically was limited to Bubblebeam. Now that it has Surf, Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam, it shreds pretty much everything that's not a Gym Leader. Its first true matchup in Winona went really well, and seeing the late game ahead, B/C Tier seems like a good place for it.

Machamp is pretty good once it evolves into Machamp. Wrecks Norman, sweeps Winona and cleans Route trainers well enough. Lack of STAB that isn't Revenge or Karate Chop is starting to prove annoying though, this thing needs Brick Break. Honestly if everything goes well in the E4 and Juan, this is an easy C Tier.

Slugma
bad lmao. This thing has been limited to route cleaning unevolved mons and cleaning up the weak links of Gym Leader's teams(and sometimes even that is impossible, i.e Norman). This thing is frail as shot, taking 25% from a Swellow's Quick Attack and taking even more damage from attacks like Spinda's Facade and Skarmory's Aerial Ace doing 70%. Unless this thing gets a super power upgrade in Magcargo, this is probably going in F Tier.
 
Hariyama is underwhelming against which late-game gym leader or Elite 4 member? (other than Tate and Liza, because most other A tiers can't solo them either)
Juan is sketchy, though Vital Throw can take down Kingdra's Double Team, Pheobe without Earthquake, Drake without Facade/Rock Tomb and Wallace are the one's it struggles against(considering you have Bulk Up and STAB).

edit: wait it's not Breloom

Heracross is IMO, better than Hariyama late game due to having a MUCH higher Speed stat and access to Brick Break immediatly, making it have a better matchup against Juan, Drake and Wallace.
 
Now to finish things off:

Team: Sceptile Lv42/Gardevoir Lv43/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv40/Rayquaza Lv70

Sceptile: It obviously doesn't stand a chance against Altaria, and it will likely get KO'd by Gardevoir before it can deal any significant damage. Delcatty and Roselia are easy 2HKOs. It needs TMs for Magneton such as Brick Break and Earthquake.

Gardevoir: Extremely easy time here. It just has to get in one Calm Mind to sweep his entire team. Who would've thought that Wally's signature mon would be his downfall?

Graveler: It can manage Altaria and Magneton is an easy OHKO. Everyone else has too many easy ways to kill it.

Raichu: The low stats (and the Careful nature mine managed to have -_-) begin to really show here. Delcatty and Altaria are 3HKOs, Magneton requires it to have the Brick Break TM for it to do any real damage, and Gardevoir is too bulky and too strong for Raichu.

Rayquaza: Even Magneton is an OHKO with Outrage.


Team: Sceptile Lv43/Gardevoir Lv43/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv42/Rayquaza Lv70

Sceptile: Surprisingly good here. It might need to switch out from Mightyena due to Sand Attack and Swagger, but the rest of his team is frail and any Leaf Blade resists can't do much to fight back against it.

Gardevoir: Not great. You can try to get a Calm Mind up against Mightyena, but it will no doubt spam Sand Attack and several of his Pokemon know strong physical attacks. Not to mention it can do little against the Grass/Dark types due to Thunderbolt being its only option.

Graveler: Suffers from the same Sand Attack and Intimidate problems which the other members have, whilst having too little Special Defence to withstand Dark moves.

Raichu: Even with Brick Break it can't do much against the opponents here. Crawdaunt is the only member it can dispatch quickly due to STAB Thunderbolt.

Rayquaza: Everything is an OHKO with Outrage.


Team: Sceptile Lv44/Gardevoir Lv43/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv42/Rayquaza Lv70

Sceptile: Nothing is a safe OHKO here. Everything here has ways of crippling its viability including Ice Beam, Double Team spam and Pressure stalling through Protect.

Gardevoir: Can't KO anything without Calm Mind, which is difficult to get up due to her Pokemon knowing STAB Ghost moves that the Special Defence boost can't do anything about. Bad matchup.

Graveler: Its attacks are far too weak at this point to do anything against her.

Raichu: Its attacks are too weak against Dusclops and Banette is far too strong for it.

Rayquaza: Can OHKO everything except her Lv51 Dusclops. While it knows Ice Beam, as it is coming from Dusclops, it will only chip off a third of Rayquaza's HP.


Team: Sceptile Lv44/Gardevoir Lv43/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv42/Rayquaza Lv71

Sceptile: Despite having a type advantage, Sceptile isn't that great here. Most of the opponents are bulky enough to survive a Leaf Blade, allowing them to set-up Hail which later team members can follow up on with Blizzard.

Gardevoir: This is more like it. Three Calm Minds will sweep everything, which isn't difficult to accomplish thanks to Glacia leading with a weak Sealeo.

Graveler: Doesn't stand a chance against Ice and Water types at this point.

Raichu: While Thunderbolt is effective against the Walrein line, everything in her team knows powerful moves that can take advantage of its low defences.

Rayquaza: Every except Walrein is a OHKO with Outrage. Keeping in against Walrein is unwise as Ice Beam can potentially OHKO it.


Team: Sceptile Lv44/Gardevoir Lv44/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv42/Rayquaza Lv71

Sceptile: Flygon is the only member it can beat. Leaf Blade can 2HKO it, while Flamethrower won't be enough to OHKO Sceptile. It can't do anything to the other members unless the player makes a detour through Meteor Falls to get Dragon Claw on it.

Gardevoir: Not great. Shelgon knows enough physical attacks to discourage it from setting up too many Calm Minds, while Salamence and Flygon know moves that can potentially KO it.

Graveler: Even Shelgon's Dragon Claw is enough to 2HKO it, and it is too weak to fight back against anything.

Raichu: It is too frail to survive more than two hits, and its main form of offence is the middling Strength. Not good.

Rayquaza: Another Outrage sweep.


Team: Sceptile Lv44/Gardevoir Lv44/Raichu Lv43/Graveler Lv42/Rayquaza Lv72

Sceptile: Alright. Easy OHKO against Whiscash. Can manage against Wailord and Milotic, though it may need to rely on Leaf Blade's crit chance for an OHKO. Everything is too bulky even for a 2HKO, and Tentacruel's Sludge Bomb could potentially KO it.

Gardevoir: A shaky sweep. It may need several Calm Minds and maybe a couple of Double Teams. Thankfully, Wailord is easy to set-up against.

Graveler: A total lost cause.

Raichu: It has an easy OHKO against Gyarados. Wailord is a 2HKO at worst and can survive an attack from it. Milotic and Tentacruel are too bulky to be KO'd by Thunderbolt, not to mention their attacks are strong enough for a potential OHKO against Raichu. There is no way Raichu can get past Whiscash and Ludicolo.

Rayquaza: Outrage is enough to get it past Gyarados and Wailord. It will need to rely on Fly for KOs against the other team members.


Final thoughts:

Sceptile
I definitely agree with the consensus that he should stay in B. I'd argue that he mainly becomes truly viable when he gets Leaf Blade, which allows him to 1-2HKO most opponents. Beforehand, his moves are too weak and his matchups against most of the bosses are pretty poor. Even the Grass weak Juan and Wallace have ways of getting an OHKO against it. On top of that, if Sceptile wants further usage against the late game bosses, it will need to rely on valuable TMs such as Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Despite this though, Leaf Blade is still the best Grass move in the game and that alone allows him to get through most of the second half by himself.

Gardevoir
I have no objections with its current placement. Once it gets Calm Mind, it can potentially steamroll most of the bosses whilst having enough firepower to KO most opponents. The Ralts and Kirlia phases have problems, but any team support it may need will be virtually non-existent by the time you get Gardevoir. The closest it needs in terms of team support is Thunderbolt, which is moderately easy to get as long as the player is willing to make a quick detour.

Graveler
It should definitely stay in D. It is fine up to Flannery where a majority of the opponents are Ground weak. But after that, its low stats begin to show and it doesn't know any strong moves until the late Earthquake to make up for it. Virtually none of its post-Flannery matchups are good either. Even Winona has ways of getting an OHKO against it. The amount of Water-types in the late game also don't help it, with a fair few having enough speed for a quick KO. I definitely wouldn't recommend this guy long term unless you evolve it.

Raichu
Quite a few of my problems with it come back to the Careful nature I got on it. Unlike Graveler, the amount of Water-types here work to its favour as they can allow it to get plenty of easy OHKOs on a fair few matchups. However, its boss matchups could've been much better. Several of their Pokemon have high defences at this point and know strong moves that can take advantage of how frail Raichu is. Out of the Pokemon in my team in this playthrough, Raichu seems to be the most divisive in terms of placement. From my experience here, I definitely wouldn't say it's a B. Its stats are arguably too low for a late-game Pokemon, which makes it a liability against bosses. I'd say that its current placement, C, is appropriate. It gets by on learning Thunderbolt without needing a TM and the sheer number of Electric weak Pokemon near the end. I'm willing to accept arguments for a D placement though.

Rayquaza
Not much to be said here. The only thing stopping it from an S placement is its availability. It is almost unstoppable on every boss from when you get it thanks to a combination of its level and the PP efficient Outrage, which makes it a reliable option on the Elite Four. Definitely A, as if that needed to be said already.
 

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