Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Staryu, Starmie
Staryu can be found in Lilycove City. It requires a super rod, so it can't be caught until the player has been to Mossdeep City, which is pretty late. It also comes a bit underleveled, so it will need some experience and time before becoming useful. If it's availability wasn't already late enough, the water stone required to evolve it comes even later, making it not very useful in major battles until the player can use dive.
Starmie's stats are definitely pretty good. However, the only good move it learns without TMs is surf, and spamming surf against all the water types is literally not very effective. As always, the TMs for ice beam and thunderbolt are badly coveted. Additionally, saving those TMs for Staryu comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to use them on several routes and against the Fortree Gym. The fact that it comes late makes the battles at Ever Grande City especially critical to its usefulness, but Starmie just happens to have a type disadvantage against Phoebe and Drake.
Because of its late availability, late evolution, and TM dependence, I nominate Staryu for C tier.
 

Merritt

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Starmie just happens to have a type disadvantage against Phoebe and Drake.
what

While Staryu certainly does have a reliance on Thunderbolt and Ice Beam TMs, it's also the best user bar pretty much none (maybe Kyogre/Swampert for Ice Beam), and even then it's rare that I haven't been able to quickly get the 80,000 necessary to buy a copy at the game corner by then - usually only if I don't make the quick detour to pick up the Amulet Coin after Norman or have been using particularly bad item hogs. The only Pokemon who can really use the Thunderbolt TM better than Staryu is a STAB user, and even then Staryu has more overall consistency since it actually has coverage unlike all the electric types.

While the Water Stone is only after defeating Tate and Liza (basically immediately after obtaining Staryu so there's not exactly this long wait you seem to be implying by saying the water stone is "even later"), Staryu can still contribute quite well against them due to the overall type advantage it has. While slightly frail as Staryu its high speed means that it should outspeed even while somewhat underleveled and get off at least one Surf to do good damage, particularly in RS. Grinding Staryu is also certainly no chore due to Thunderbolt allowing Staryu (and then Starmie) to tear through the remaining routes of the game. After giving Staryu the needed TMs it can generally snowball over the entirety of the rest of the game with the exception of a very few trainers and Phoebe. Even against Phoebe, Starmie can still contribute due to its rather high Special Attack and respectable defenses.

Staryu is in B rank because of its lateness and reliance on TMs, but it's an absolutely excellent Pokemon who offers drastically more to a run than any of the C rank Pokemon.
 

Karxrida

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Staryu shouldn't drop.

Outside of what Merritt already said, Staryu's endgame matchups are actually pretty strong thanks to its typing and movepool. Only Phoebe is a strict loss (Starmie can take on a couple of Sidney's Pokémon because of stuff like STABless Shifty lol) since it has no way to hurt her Ghosts and doesn't like Shadow Ball.
 
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Sharpedo is almost as useful as Starmie is for sweeping the Elite Four (worse against Glacia but better against Phoebe) and evolves much earlier, so it doesn't seem fair to put both of them in the same tier.
 

Coconut

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Sharpedo is almost as useful as Starmie is for sweeping the Elite Four (worse against Glacia but better against Phoebe) and evolves much earlier, so it doesn't seem fair to put both of them in the same tier.
While I agree with this that Carvanha is extremely good and a better option than Staryu, you should not be using this as your basis for a pokemon and if they should move up or not. But if I compared Sharpedo to many, if not all of the things in A, the line is absolutely outclassed.

Carv might be a better mon than Staryu, but not enough for either to move up or down.
 
I find a better baseline for suggesting a move based on mon comparison is for move down to be based on "this is not better than anything in C-tier" rather than "these things in B-tier are better". Even the least effective in A-Tier is still a noticeable step above most of B-Tier, for example, so it's better to explain it as fitting better with the new tier than "not" fitting with the old one.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Shroomish A -->B
Electrike B-->A
Aron D-->B or C

Won't go super in depth rn but

Don't know why shroomish is so high, shroomish is utter trash, you don't get spore until 54 and breloom is both slow, frail, and with a garbage move pool. 130 attack only carries you so far when you only benefit off of fighting stab, just ask Machamp

Electrike is easily accessible, quick to evolve, fast, and strong enough to carry it's own weight. Not a world beater but never a liability

Aron has some issues with speed and type weaknesses but it's bulky, it's strong, and it has a good move pool on it's own or augmented with tms. Aggron wrecks a lot of stuff. I imagine the complaint is the late evolution: that's overstated, Aron is good enough to carry it's own weight*

*Having done a no evolution run (fuck Liza and Tate) Aron/duskull/lileep are serious beasts of you set them up properly
 

Merritt

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Don't know why shroomish is so high, shroomish is utter trash, you don't get spore until 54 and breloom is both slow, frail, and with a garbage move pool. 130 attack only carries you so far when you only benefit off of fighting stab, just ask Machamp

Electrike is easily accessible, quick to evolve, fast, and strong enough to carry it's own weight. Not a world beater but never a liability
I’ll offer my point of view, but the irony of this did make me laugh a little.

Spore should be a non-factor for Shroomish - getting up to level 54 is completely implausible considering that’s higher than a good number of people get for the Champion. While its movepool isn’t a diverse masterpiece of coverage, access to a fairly early Headbutt and Mach Punch carry Breloom far, and the later possible addition of Sludge Bomb is always welcome. While Mega/Giga Drain aren’t amazingly powerful, they do offer specific coverage against Rock types who would otherwise be problematic, and it hits them plenty hard. Meanwhile its speed, while not impressive, does outpace a majority of the game when you account for the Dynamo Badge x1.1 speed boost and Breloom’s EVs. There’s a few opponents who Breloom isn’t likely to outpace but Breloom does make up for it with a consistently strong Mach Punch.

Meanwhile I find it ironic that you condemn Breloom for being frail and with a garbage movepool before praising Manectric when it suffers the same issues only more so. Notably, Breloom actually has extremely comparable defenses (bulkier physically, frailer specially). On the subject of Manectric’s movepool though, you have to grind up a Pokémon who has only Tackle until level 17 where it gets upgraded into Quick Attack until 20 when it finally gets Spark and comes into its own. Note that Electrike is obtained between levels 12-13 and has 45 base attack (almost directly compareable to Shroomish’s 40). Once it does get Spark it’s quite nice having a good special attack that hits fairly hard as Manectric. Of course that’s also the only special attack it has by level up until level 39 and Bite. Thunderbolt after gym 5 does patch up the starting to flag Spark but Manectric is still running off almost pure mono-electric movepool other than weak normal type attacks unless you get lucky and win the hidden power lottery of getting a special type that’s not electric or dark with respectable power. Manectric is still a good mon in spite of these flaws, but you shouldn’t condemn Breloom for movepool and bulk issues when Manetric suffers from them as well.
 
Electrike is easily accessible, quick to evolve, fast, and strong enough to carry it's own weight. Not a world beater but never a liability
I should also probably point out that Electrike's growth rate is slow, so it is a bit of a liability.
Aron probably deserves to move up. Its availability and defensive typing are both decent.
 
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Punchshroom

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Dammit sniped by Merritt

Adding to what he said, Breloom comes at a time where its strength is leagues above everything else and remains unmatched for much of the game, and just when Headbutt and Mach Punch start to lag behind in power, it gets Sky Uppercut, one of the best Fighting moves in that Generation, as a massive upgrade at a mere lv 36, making it one of the most ludicrously strong in-game attackers, all without relying on a single TM. Most other Pokemon only come close to that level of power much later, if they do at all. Even as a Shroomish, it doesn't have a bad lagging period, being one of the best (non-overleveled) Pokemon to tackle Roxanne with while Leech Seed can help against Brawly's Makuhita.

Aron has some issues with speed and type weaknesses but it's bulky, it's strong, and it has a good move pool on it's own or augmented with tms. Aggron wrecks a lot of stuff. I imagine the complaint is the late evolution: that's overstated, Aron is good enough to carry it's own weight*
The low Speed, bad weaknesses, and especially late evolution levels (for both Aron & Lairon) are huge factors, but there's also the fact that there are not enough important matchups where it really shines. In terms of gyms, it gets wrecked by Brawly, Wattson and Flannery easily outdamage it, Winona's Altaria and (Emerald) Tate & Liza's Claydol have Earthquake, and lol Wallace/Juan. It only really gets props against Norman because RS Tate & Liza are a laughingstock, though that is hardly a résumé to be proud of. Aggron's performance improves considerably (in comparison) in the Elite 4, but you had to slog through the underwhelming Aron and Lairon phase to reach that point, and even then you're still not home-free as Ruby & Sapphire Glacia has threatening Water-types while Emerald Drake's Dragons are more potent. Steven is not going to be a breeze to fight and Champion Wallace is gonna swamp Aggron instantly.

Aggron's level-up movepool pretty much consists of Metal Claw, then Iron Tail (probably both since Iron Tail is an unreliable main attack), plus a couple of mish-mash to go in there that doesn't really augment its STAB in any way. Even without taking into account Aron & Lairon's mediocre TM pool, Aggron's colorful TM pool is let down by the fact that it can't really make good use of most of them thanks to its poor Special Attack. On the physical side, all it really has are Rock Tomb, Dig, Aerial Ace, Brick Break, and Earthquake. These moves are either mediocre, come extremely late, and/or are highly contested by potentially better users, especially since, for the most part, they don't usually help Aggron overcome unfavorable matchups more so than simply securing favorable ones (with probably the lone exception being Steven's Earthquake Aggron).

*Having done a no evolution run (fuck Liza and Tate) Aron/duskull/lileep are serious beasts of you set them up properly
Erm...why is this relevant? The in-game tier list doesn't factor in conditions where you literally handicap yourself for the heck of it.
 

Geta92

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Has anyone ever tried catching a Lv. 45 Carvanha with the Super Rod on Route 119? If that info is truly correct (Bulbapedia and Serebii both list it, so I assume it is), imo Sharpedo should rise because you can get the super rod right before Tate & Liza, when having a dark type becomes really useful. You'll have crunch right off the bat with one heart scale and can teach surf and ice beam for a pretty damn good coverage. Thats like 10 levels beyond anything you can find at that stage of the game normally.
 
Has anyone ever tried catching a Lv. 45 Carvanha with the Super Rod on Route 119? If that info is truly correct (Bulbapedia and Serebii both list it, so I assume it is), imo Sharpedo should rise because you can get the super rod right before Tate & Liza, when having a dark type becomes really useful. You'll have crunch right off the bat with one heart scale and can teach surf and ice beam for a pretty damn good coverage. Thats like 10 levels beyond anything you can find at that stage of the game normally.
I have tried doing stuff like that. From my experience, overleveled Pokemon are usually pretty rare and may take a few hours to find even with pressure or vital spirit.
 

Merritt

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Has anyone ever tried catching a Lv. 45 Carvanha with the Super Rod on Route 119? If that info is truly correct (Bulbapedia and Serebii both list it, so I assume it is), imo Sharpedo should rise because you can get the super rod right before Tate & Liza, when having a dark type becomes really useful. You'll have crunch right off the bat with one heart scale and can teach surf and ice beam for a pretty damn good coverage. Thats like 10 levels beyond anything you can find at that stage of the game normally.
The route 119 Super Rod encounter table is thus:

L25-30 CARVANHA - 40%
L30-35 CARVANHA - 40%
L20-25 CARVANHA - 15%
L35-40 CARVANHA - 4%
L40-45 CARVANHA - 1%

So even beyond the fact that I'd still say getting the much earlier Good Rod Carvanha is more useful due to being around for a significantly longer time, less than 1% encounter rates (since it's 1% to be in the 40-45 pool) definitely offer enough of an opportunity cost to be ranked down on availability.

Definitely not rising due to the level 45 encounter.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I’ll offer my point of view, but the irony of this did make me laugh a little.

Spore should be a non-factor for Shroomish - getting up to level 54 is completely implausible considering that’s higher than a good number of people get for the Champion. While its movepool isn’t a diverse masterpiece of coverage, access to a fairly early Headbutt and Mach Punch carry Breloom far, and the later possible addition of Sludge Bomb is always welcome. While Mega/Giga Drain aren’t amazingly powerful, they do offer specific coverage against Rock types who would otherwise be problematic, and it hits them plenty hard. Meanwhile its speed, while not impressive, does outpace a majority of the game when you account for the Dynamo Badge x1.1 speed boost and Breloom’s EVs. There’s a few opponents who Breloom isn’t likely to outpace but Breloom does make up for it with a consistently strong Mach Punch.

Meanwhile I find it ironic that you condemn Breloom for being frail and with a garbage movepool before praising Manectric when it suffers the same issues only more so. Notably, Breloom actually has extremely comparable defenses (bulkier physically, frailer specially). On the subject of Manectric’s movepool though, you have to grind up a Pokémon who has only Tackle until level 17 where it gets upgraded into Quick Attack until 20 when it finally gets Spark and comes into its own. Note that Electrike is obtained between levels 12-13 and has 45 base attack (almost directly compareable to Shroomish’s 40). Once it does get Spark it’s quite nice having a good special attack that hits fairly hard as Manectric. Of course that’s also the only special attack it has by level up until level 39 and Bite. Thunderbolt after gym 5 does patch up the starting to flag Spark but Manectric is still running off almost pure mono-electric movepool other than weak normal type attacks unless you get lucky and win the hidden power lottery of getting a special type that’s not electric or dark with respectable power. Manectric is still a good mon in spite of these flaws, but you shouldn’t condemn Breloom for movepool and bulk issues when Manetric suffers from them as well.
I understand where you're coming from but I disagree. Firstly, Breloom is frail and slow, losing out on Spore which should be one of it's biggest selling points matters when it can't mitigate the attacks it's taking. And this is where the key difference really matters, Breloom will usually be taking hits, will often be sucking up items, will often be sucking up time. Manectric won't because it's faster and it hits harder with it's stabs by virtue of base power (up until Sky Uppercut) so when it's hitting something that thing is usually dying. It is exceptionally meaningful that Manectric is hitting with Electric and Breloom with Grass/Fighting because Electric carries hard throughout the portion of game between Norman and Ever Grande City where Grass/Fighting are liabilities with the numerous Flying/Poison types running around. Manectric outperforms here hands down.

The low Speed, bad weaknesses, and especially late evolution levels (for both Aron & Lairon) are huge factors, but there's also the fact that there are not enough important matchups where it really shines. In terms of gyms, it gets wrecked by Brawly, Wattson and Flannery easily outdamage it, Winona's Altaria and (Emerald) Tate & Liza's Claydol have Earthquake, and lol Wallace/Juan. It only really gets props against Norman because RS Tate & Liza are a laughingstock, though that is hardly a résumé to be proud of. Aggron's performance improves considerably (in comparison) in the Elite 4, but you had to slog through the underwhelming Aron and Lairon phase to reach that point, and even then you're still not home-free as Ruby & Sapphire Glacia has threatening Water-types while Emerald Drake's Dragons are more potent. Steven is not going to be a breeze to fight and Champion Wallace is gonna swamp Aggron instantly.

Aggron's level-up movepool pretty much consists of Metal Claw, then Iron Tail (probably both since Iron Tail is an unreliable main attack), plus a couple of mish-mash to go in there that doesn't really augment its STAB in any way. Even without taking into account Aron & Lairon's mediocre TM pool, Aggron's colorful TM pool is let down by the fact that it can't really make good use of most of them thanks to its poor Special Attack. On the physical side, all it really has are Rock Tomb, Dig, Aerial Ace, Brick Break, and Earthquake. These moves are either mediocre, come extremely late, and/or are highly contested by potentially better users, especially since, for the most part, they don't usually help Aggron overcome unfavorable matchups more so than simply securing favorable ones (with probably the lone exception being Steven's Earthquake Aggron).

Erm...why is this relevant? The in-game tier list doesn't factor in conditions where you literally handicap yourself for the heck of it.
Firstly, I brought up the no-evolution run to give context to how much experience I have with Aron. I've used Aggron in multiple RSE runs and in addition also used Aron well past the point of evolution so I have a very clear idea of how it performs.

I don't dispute that Aron has issues against many of the major gym leaders but it definitely has areas where it can contribute. Yeah, it can't solo Winona because Altaria has Earthquake but do you really care when you've taken out the other four? It can fight Sidney, Phoebe, parts of Glacia (Glalie's in all versions, Sealeo's in Emerald don't carry Water moves), parts of Drake, Flannery by virtue of outspeeding slow AF Slugma and Torkoal, etc. You're severely underselling the sheer amount of Pokemon that simply can't touch a high defense Steel type, all the way throughout the game.

The physical movepool you've listed is plenty good enough for Aggron to get the job done between Iron Tail, Rock Tomb, and Aerial Ace plus whatever TMs you want to expend. And for an in-game run Aggron's 60 special attack is certainly usable if you want to give it some tech options (60 is the same as Gyarados).

I'm not suggesting Aron is a world beater because it's not. But D is severely underselling the fact that it is a very viable choice for an in-game run that is mostly self-sufficient and has attractive traits that mean it holds its own. Hence why I suggested it to rise to B rank or C at the least.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I should also probably point out that Electrike's growth rate is slow, so it is a bit of a liability.
Aron probably deserves to move up. Its availability and defensive typing are both decent.
Shroomish and Breloom are in the fluctuating growth category, literally the longest growth in the game.

1.64 million experience for a lv100 breloom vs. 1.25 million
 
Shroomish and Breloom are in the fluctuating growth category, literally the longest growth in the game.

1.64 million experience for a lv100 breloom vs. 1.25 million
I don’t think sumwun was using experience groups to compare the relative usefulness of Electrike and Shroomish specifically, but merely as a minor point against the former, assessing it on its own.

However, it’s important to note that your response is pretty misleading when it comes to in-game analysis. At a stretch, it might be relevant to look at cumulative experience up to level 60, but most players won’t get their team even to that level pre-E4, especially not in an ‘efficient’ run. Using that as our point of reference, Pokémon in both the ‘Slow’ and ‘Fluctuating’ groups require about the same experience over the course of a typical run, and all the other groups require significantly less.

This is ignoring any questions about how desirable it is to level up faster in the early game compared with the late game. I can’t speak for everyone’s experiences, but I find that slow levelling in the early game is more of a drag because you’re spending more time grinding against Pokémon that give out fewer experience points. The ‘Slow’ and ‘Erratic’ groups are the worst offenders in this regard.

I said a lot about a fairly minor part of tiering haha, but the main thrust is ‘don’t quote misleading figures, remember what the scope of these lists is’
 
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Merritt

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Shroomish and Breloom are in the fluctuating growth category, literally the longest growth in the game.

1.64 million experience for a lv100 breloom vs. 1.25 million
Yes, you're correct that it requires the most exp in order to get to level 100, but until level 62 (far higher than what you'd actually hit ingame) Fluctuating takes less total exp than slow.

Here's the full chart, left hand side is total exp needed, right is exp to next level. e: I apparently don’t know what right and left are.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Experience#Experience_at_each_level

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree. Firstly, Breloom is frail and slow, losing out on Spore which should be one of it's biggest selling points matters when it can't mitigate the attacks it's taking. And this is where the key difference really matters, Breloom will usually be taking hits, will often be sucking up items, will often be sucking up time. Manectric won't because it's faster and it hits harder with it's stabs by virtue of base power (up until Sky Uppercut) so when it's hitting something that thing is usually dying. It is exceptionally meaningful that Manectric is hitting with Electric and Breloom with Grass/Fighting because Electric carries hard throughout the portion of game between Norman and Ever Grande City where Grass/Fighting are liabilities with the numerous Flying/Poison types running around. Manectric outperforms here hands down.
I mean, you seem pretty fixated on Breloom's 'slowness' and how that's why its relative lack of bulk is so bad compared to Manectric (believe me, Breloom's not really that frail for ingame), but Breloom's really not that slow compared to most trainers. While in competitive Breloom is slow, route trainers generally lack IVs at all (later on and certain types of trainers do have IVs but even the Victory Road cooltrainers have IVs under 15 across the board) and absolutely no trainers have EVs, allowing Breloom to overcome the disadvantage. In addition the Dynamo Badge obtained from Wattson provides a permanent 10% boost to speed, essentially always giving Breloom a +speed nature with no downside. Honestly, there's not all that many who actually outspeed Breloom and hit it particularly hard unless you're throwing it at the fast flying types that pop up from time to time, in which case you kind of deserve it for throwing Breloom at them. Seriously, if you could name a few major targets that Manectric outspeeds and Breloom reasonably doesn't that'd be an important thing to put out there.

I don't see why you're so dead set on Breloom's lack of Spore access either - going for Spore is a waste of time and while having it would make Breloom absolutely absurd it doesn't need it to be a good Pokemon. It's like saying that because Kyogre can't get up to Water Spout it's not good. Breloom's niche is hitting incredibly hard even with non-STAB attacks. Here's relative levels of power - all pokemon are at level 30, Breloom and Manectric have 15 IVs, Mew has 31. Breloom has +Atk to account for the Stone Badge's Atk boost (the SpA boost isn't until after Tate and Liza).

80+ Atk Breloom Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 24-29 (22 - 26.6%) -- 13.4% chance to 4HKO
80+ Atk Breloom Strength vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 27-32 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
80 SpA Manectric Spark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 26-31 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 91.3% chance to 4HKO

Obviously there's a brief period where Manectric gets Thunderbolt and outdoes Breloom in damage output until Sky Uppercut, but at that point (level 36 across the board, otherwise same as above):

80 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 43-51 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80+ Atk Breloom Sky Uppercut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ground-type Mew: 49-58 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(80+ SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 46-55 (35.6 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

Breloom's Grass type moves are for very specific targets, otherwise Breloom makes use of Strength, Fighting-type moves, and if given, the Sludge Bomb TM - Strength hits the Poison and Flying types plenty hard.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Tell you what I'll start up a new run and specifically use Breloom to see if it lives up to the hype that apparently everyone else thinks it has

Manectric for A in any case tho :o
 

Its_A_Random

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A tier isn't a good place for slow-leveling Pokemon that come underleveled in any case though.
This isn't a good argument to discredit a Pokémon from being worthy of A-Rank or higher. The thing is, if a Pokémon despite being slow to level up and coming relatively underleveled is able to make up for it by doing a really good job at helping you get through a casual playthrough efficiently, then it can be worthy of being in the top two ranks. There are quite a few examples of this throughout the tier lists; Magikarp, Tauros and Miltank in GSC (and several other tier lists in Magikarp's case), B2W2 has Axew, Heracross (which is also highly ranked in XY), and Pinsir, and even this tier list has examples in Ralts (YMMV since it comes before the first badge) and Zangoose (whose growth rate is even slower than Electrike's until roughly the mid-lategame).

This isn't to say whether or not Electrike is worth moving up (and I have no opinion on that), but the idea that underlevelled + slow growth = not a top two rank is not necessarily true at all (not to mention, it is rather black/white thinking).
 
This isn't a good argument to discredit a Pokémon from being worthy of A-Rank or higher. The thing is, if a Pokémon despite being slow to level up and coming relatively underleveled is able to make up for it by doing a really good job at helping you get through a casual playthrough efficiently, then it can be worthy of being in the top two ranks. There are quite a few examples of this throughout the tier lists; Magikarp, Tauros and Miltank in GSC (and several other tier lists in Magikarp's case), B2W2 has Axew, Heracross (which is also highly ranked in XY), and Pinsir, and even this tier list has examples in Ralts (YMMV since it comes before the first badge) and Zangoose (whose growth rate is even slower than Electrike's until roughly the mid-lategame).

This isn't to say whether or not Electrike is worth moving up (and I have no opinion on that), but the idea that underlevelled + slow growth = not a top two rank is not necessarily true at all (not to mention, it is rather black/white thinking).
I didn't literally mean all cases. I guess I shouldn't have said that.
 

Punchshroom

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Manectric may be the best Electric-type in-game, but considering the competition that's not saying a whole lot.

Electrike has a number of flaws that hold it back from A imo. The first is that the early Electrike comes at a maximum of level 13, but doesn't learn Electric STAB until level 20. This is not an insignificant babying period, as it means Electrike would be missing out on breezing through the Team Aqua Grunts in Oceanic Museum and remain a low-damaging Pokemon throughout the entirety of Route 110 at the very least. Even when it gets Spark, it's not pulling much weight against Wattson who can easily Sonicboom you to death. It doesn't manage to clean sweep the trainers afterward, as for every Pokemon Electrike can easily OHKO, it encounters two more that easily beat it or do major damage to it. It may be able to beat Mount Chimney Team Aqua Grunts easily enough and boast a good matchup against Archie as a Manectric, but against Team Magma and especially Maxie (which are in Ruby and Emerald), Manectric is going to struggle. Manectric is unlikely to OHKO any of Flannery's Pokemon, and will either get slowed down by Light Screen or blasted by Overheat, with the matchup being even worse in Emerald due to Flannery using the camels. Manectric is also unlikely to put in great work against Norman either, and may even end up dying sooner if it ends up triggering Facade's boost with its multiple forms of paralysis (Spark, Static, & Thunder Wave, though you'd likely not end up actually using the latter).

Manectric only really starts picking up steam on the road to Winona, where it gets access to the Thunderbolt TM from the Sea Mauville sidequest and has many Birdkeepers and Bug trainers to fry. However, one can debate that it may be worth skipping the lv 13 Electrike phase and just grab a wild Electrike or even Manectric in Route 118 and immediately put in work against the nearby trainers, with the only drawback being that you miss out on Thunder Wave. This is similiar to the 'early Wooper vs post-Surf Quagsire' situation in GSC, except early Wooper still has a good amount of contribution in its early matchups, whereas early Electrike doesn't really measure up in comparison. Much like Carvanha, Electrike's performance only really starts taking off from mid-game, and while it is available earlier in the game, it doesn't really contribute quite enough during that period to warrant an increase in Rank; B Rank seems fitting for Electrike (which is way better than every other Electric-type, which reside in D Rank).
 

WaterBomb

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Alright y'all, I've just completed my emerald run and I'm going to address the six Pokemon I used along the way. Please bear with me as I'm writing this on my phone while trying to prevent my children from murdering each other.



Torchic
- Red Curry

Due to the other mons I was asked to test, Torchic was the best starter to accompany them. I had extremely high expectations for my little Red Curry, due to it being listed in the S Tier of these rankings. After a full run through, I must unfortunately disagree with this placement.

Make no mistake, Torchic and its evolutions are very strong. With the offensive stats to effectively utilize both of its STABs, the Torchic line is able to deal damage to a wide range of opponents. Reaching its first evolution, gaining dual typing, and learning Double Kick so early (all at level 16) make it extremely useful in the early game. It cleans up Roxanne without any trouble, can overpower Brawly, and breaks through Wattson's low defense electric types. Once I reached the mid game, however, its usefulness dropped off a fair bit. Combusken is not terribly fast, so I found myself being outsped more often than I wanted to be. This made life more difficult as I was taking damage frequently, which combusken is not built to do. Resisting the Fire moves from Flannery's mons was a plus, but it couldn't stay in to take ground attacks from her fire camels. Norman was also tougher than I expected, because by then he was still in his middle evolutionary stage and running a 50bp Fighting move. Failing to ohko faster mons like Vigoroth and Slaking when they already outsped me meant combusken was only able to pitch in a bit in a supposedly plus matchup.

The second half of the midgame was kinder to Red Curry, as I had purchased Flamethrower from the mauville game corner. The long route from Mauville to Fortree is littered with Bug maniacs, Picnickers, and Rangers who all tend to cakrry mons weak to Fire, so he was highly effective here. He was also surprisingly useful against Winona, as she carried both Skarmory and Tropius who were promptly roasted. He had to sit out the rest though, as Altaria and Swellow would have made short work of him.

After Winona was defeated and I obtained the 6th badge, Red Curry again faced a challenging slog down the route toward Lilycove. Permanent rain and numerous water types neutered his best stab, leaving him again with the now underpowered Double Kick for damage. Once in Lilycove and beginning the various Team Aqua and Magma arcs, Red Curry was decently useful again, being able to take on the frequent Dark types carried by grunts and resisting the Fire stabs of Magma. This, unfortunately, was the last time he'd be useful until the Elite 4.

As I entered the final third of the game, the late game, a newly evolved Blaziken found himself completely ineffective against the Psychic Twins in Mossdeep and the hordes of water type trainers floating around those massive ocean routes you have to navigate. He was able to contribute against Juan, as stab Brick Break scored ohkos on Sealeo and Crawdaunt, but took a seat again when the other water types came out. Things began to look up as I entered Victory Road, however, as his dual stabs found much success against the more diverse teams of the Cooltrainers.

The final phase, the Elite 4, saw a healthy contribution from Red Curry. Sidney could do very little as stab Brick Break mowed through his Dark types. He was also helpful against Phoebe, being immune to burns from Will o' Wisp and dealing very strong damage with stab Flamethrower. The final dusclops was a problem, though, easily tanking a Flamethrower and firing back with super effective Earthquake. Glacia was a plus matchup on paper, but the level differences proved more challenging than expected, specifically against mons like Glalie who outsped and carried Earthquake and Walrein who eats Brick Break for breakfast. As expected, Red Curry was not much involved versus Drake and Wallace due to horrendous matchups.

Which brings me to the important part of my analysis: the summary and final grade. Going back to the beginning of my post, I mentioned that I had very high expectations for Torchic based on its current rank. I expect an S rank mon to face very little opposition throughout the game and be able to even break through some minus matchups. Though Torchic and his evolutions are strong offensively, middling speed and horrible defenses caused more problems than is acceptable for an S rank. It is with this in mind that I officially recommend Torchic be dropped to A Tier, as its from-the-start availability, early and late game usefulness, and strong mixed offensive stats make it an excellent Pokemon for any team.

Phew, that was long. I'll keep the remaining Pokemon more concise...


Ralts
- Weeb Bait

Ralts is available to catch before you've faced your first random trainer, though it is only a 4% encounter rate. This is not a huge deal though, as it's well worth the brief wait. It only took me about 15 minutes to find one, and it was female and positive natured. I nicknamed her Weeb Bait, which I felt was appropriate. Ralts learns Confusion at level 6, so it only requires a level of babying before it can fend for itself after being caught. Confusion is very strong for the early game and has great matchups against the second gym. Ralts and Kirlia have average stats, but stab Confusion and ability to learn tbolt as soon as you can afford it make them tolerable while you level up. Learning Psychic very early (lv26) is also a huge boon, and from there it's just a short few levels to reach your final evolution. Gardevoir was the star of my battle with Norman, able to withstand enough punishment from Slaking to successfully ko him. From there, Gardevoir runs basically unopposed through the rest of the game, facing no real bad matchups aside from the dark types of Team Aqua/Magma and the Psychic gym in Mossdeep. Psychic and Thunderbolt are all the coverage you really need, coming in handy on the water routes and against Juan. Sidney and Phoebe were rough on her of course, but that was the only time in the game she really struggled.
Final rank: A Tier


Electrike
- Raikou?

Hmm, tough one here. On one hand, his combination of high Special Attack and Speed allows him to hit hard and avoid most damage if he ohkos as he is almost always going to go first. He's also available pretty early (as soon as you arrive in Slateport) and is very easy to catch. He also evolves very early, reaching peak power before you're halfway through the game. Electric also has great matchups against Team Aqua, Gyms 6 and 8, the long water routes, and Wallace.

That, sadly, is where his advantages end. Electrike suffers from the same thing most early gen Electric types suffer from: horrible movepool, lack of coverage, and reliance on a game corner tm. Additionally, Electrike requires a tremendous amount of babying when you first get him. 7 levels to be exact, which is very slow and painful at that stage of the game. He's also a one trick pony, essentially spamming Thunderbolt against everything that isn't immune to it. Its attack is too low to really make use of physical coverage like Return, and its ONLY other special coverage move is Bite, learned very late and actually still weaker than a resisted Thunderbolt. It's also frail, making it vulnerable to heavy damage against mons it can't ohko. I think these numerous flaws are enough for me to disagree with its B ranking, and recommend lowering it to C Tier


Oddish
- Legalized

Not as much to say here. Useful for Sleep powder and resisting the electric moves of Wattson, but Grass is a terrible attacking type throughout the game, especially when your best move is Bullet Seed. Interestingly, your best offensive damage ends up being from the physical side with Sludge Bong. Despite Oddish's relatively low Attack, it has very high base power and gets stab, making it one of the more powerful moves your team has to offer at the time you obtain it. Getting Giga Drain in time for those notorious water routes is a plus, and grass is good against Juan. Unfortunately, by the time you reach the elite 4, your attacks aren't as relatively powerful and there aren't too many plus matchups to take advantage of. Most of Wallace's mons carry super effective coverage against grass so you're not doing much here.
Final rank: C Tier


Staryu
- B Tier lol

I must admit, when I first found out I was using Staryu and how late it showed up in the game, I was highly skeptical of its rank. 2 gyms, the water routes, victory road and the e4 just didn't sound like very much time for it to contribute. The difficulty in finding it was also uninspiring (15% encounter rate with the awful fishing mechanics of gen3). However, once I got it and began to use it, I began to see why others rated it so high. By the time you get Staryu, you should have plenty of money to buy at least one game corner tm, probably both if you obtained the amulet coin as soon as it was available and used it constantly. Couple that with the Ice beam tm you can get at the same time from the abandoned ship and you're able to give Staryu its endgame moveset the moment you catch it. This boosts its usefulness considerably as you can pretty much cruise to the end of the game without much trouble, based on your excellent stats and amazing versatility. The only real snag you'll face is against Sidney and Phoebe, but they are trouble for any psychic type. When it's all said and done, Staryu fits nicely in the B Tier, but could easily be A or S if it were available earlier in the game.
 
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Alright y'all, I've just completed my emerald run and I'm going to address the six Pokemon I used along the way.
I only saw five Pokemon. What's the sixth one?
Electrike suffers from the same thing most early gen Electric types suffer from: horrible movepool, lack of coverage, and reliance on a game corner tm.
Can't you wait until the New Mauville sidequest to get thunderbolt? Spark works just fine until then.
 
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Merritt

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I only saw five Pokemon. What's the sixth one?
Merritt-Last Thursday at 4:20 PM
who was your 6th hm slave btw?

WaterBomb-Last Thursday at 4:20 PM
Tropius

Merritt-Last Thursday at 4:20 PM
thoughts on trop?
it's ranked basically for being a good hm slave

WaterBomb-Last Thursday at 4:21 PM
Best slave in game
Hands down
Learns fly and all the useless hms like flash, cut, rock smush


Thanks again WaterBomb for being willing to try out some of the mons who've been brought up in the past.
 
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