Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Fireburn

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Being a decent route sweeper I think is something that is just expected of most Pokemon in the higher ranks in terms of general efficiency - you don't really gain points for doing it, but you do lose points if you're bad at it. The lone exception for me is the ocean routes because that's such a large piece of the game (plus its topped off with a same type gym to make all that investment worth it) doing well cleaning those up is valuable. The reason major battle performances are their own criterion is because they tend to be more difficult and are also gateways to progress, so doing well in those major fights in general is efficient (and if you do well in major fights you can be expected to do well against standard issue mooks because they are less difficult).

Put into this perspective I don't think there is any reason to give Grimer a raise beyond D-rank. It's an okay route sweeper but that's where its positives end. Its terrible speed, bland mono Poison typing, and late evolution makes it not good in the majority of major battles (its realistically not evolving until getting to the Psychic Gym where it has a terrible matchup). Muk's only real saving grace is that it does fairly okay against Wallace/Juan because of having high Attack and Special Defense (though Champion Wallace is harder because of his Earthquake users), but it's not exceptional against either. It's the definition of an average Pokemon and D-rank is where average mons go.
 

Fireburn

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Excuse the double post, I recently completed another run using Sceptile, Lanturn, Slaking, Sableye, Weezing, and Armaldo. I think most of these are placed appropriately, but I do want to discuss Koffing and Anorith.

Koffing:
I think Koffing is way better than Grimer and could potentially go up to C-tier. Unlike Gulpin and Grimer, Koffing doesn't get Sludge until Level 21, so it can be a bit weak at first, though giving it the Shock Wave TM makes this bearable. Once it got up to speed Koffing was a solid contributor throughout the entire run, boasting solid mixed offenses (90/85 attacking stats as Weezing with STAB Sludge Bomb and Thunderbolt/Fire move as coverage is very very good for route clearing), good physical bulk, Levitate allowing it to beat Ground-types instead of vice versa and Selfdestruct/Explosion as a highly valuable utility option to contribute in the majority of major battles (its only outright bad matchup is against Tate and Liza). Going in order:

Magma/Aqua: Solid MU all around, Koffing can't be Poisoned and Sludge/Shock Wave defeats most of their mons pretty easily, and as a bonus it floats over Numels' Ground moves so it really only has to fear Mightyenas (which aren't so bad once you evolve)
Flannery: Not going to take an Overheat, but it can outspeed Torkoal and Selfdestruct on it for a meaty hit so something else can finish it off, which isn't bad since Torkoal is by far the biggest threat here.
Norman: Can take out one mon with Selfdestruct or at least blow a hole into Slaking. Should take any one hit thanks to its good Defense.
Winona: At this point you're Weezing (you can easily hit Level 35 by this pt) and have Sludge Bomb/Thunderbolt. Weezing solos this fight with no effort, Altaria is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb, Weezing floats over EQ and +1 Aerial Ace does jack diddly to Weezing's 120 Defense. Everything else dies to Thunderbolt.
Tate and Liza: Bad matchup, moving on.
Wallace/Juan: Good matchup, TBolt the small fry and Explode on their ace. Probably can't defeat Whiscash on its own though.
Sidney: Overall fairly good matchup, his Weezing can comfortably take out Cacturne and his choice of Water-type. It can also conceivably kill Shiftry but Extrasensory will hurt if Shiftry is faster, which it could be.
Phoebe: Weezing takes Shadow Balls well and can learn Shadow Ball itself, so it does pretty okay here. One of the Banettes has Psychic but as long as your Weezing is faster (which an average Weezing should be) you'll be fine.
Glacia: Okayish leaning below average. Weezing can hit her whole team fairly hard with Fire Blast/Thunderbolt but gets hit hard back by Ice Beams since its special bulk is admittedly pretty low. Explosion will probably kill something.
Drake: Pretty alright, beats Altaria/Shelgon and can take out one of his other things with Explosion, most likely his Flygon.
Wallace: Fairly good, beats Ludicolo and Gyarados (Levitate is clutch here), can take out Whiscash with Explosion.
Steven: Decentish, beats Skarmory and Claydol (with Shadow Ball), can maybe take out Cradily.

On the whole Koffing's main weaknesses are that it takes some time to get Sludge and its special bulk isn't too great. That said, I think it does have a surprising amount to offer between its strong mixed offense, lack of defensive weaknesses barring Psychic, Levitate, and Explosion utility. It's an excellent route sweeper once it does get Sludge and can contribute fairly well in most major fights, and I think that Koffing could potentially rise to C-rank. At the very least I think it is clearly better than Grimer thanks to Levitate, boom utility, overall higher encounter rate (only has the bad encounter rate in Sapphire), and much higher SpA allowing it to get meaningful mileage out of its special coverage.

Anorith: Anorith is hot garbage and I think it can potentially be demoted to F-tier. Joins late, bad typing, bad moves (Rock Tomb is inaccurate and Secret Power isn't STAB, its best attacking move is literally Return), no good major battle MUs barring Team Magma sort of and cheesing Norman if you get it to Level 31 for Protect. Anorith is also in the Erratic EXP group so training it up to be level with the rest of your team is a huge pain, and getting it to Armaldo isn't worth it because of Armaldo's garbage speed and bad moves making it unable to even consistently hold its own as a route cleaner. It's also extremely terrible against the Elite Four - it can maybe take out 1-2 things on Sidney's team but its pretty awful against everyone else because it just can't keep up with the speed or power to do anything meaningful. Basically it joins after the period where Rock-types stop being useful (too weak to fight Norman and doesn't resist Flying for Winona) and has nothing to offer.

tl;dr Koffing up to C-tier, Anorith down to F-tier
 
Excuse the double post, I recently completed another run using Sceptile, Lanturn, Slaking, Sableye, Weezing, and Armaldo. I think most of these are placed appropriately, but I do want to discuss Koffing and Anorith.

Koffing: I think Koffing is way better than Grimer and could potentially go up to C-tier. Unlike Gulpin and Grimer, Koffing doesn't get Sludge until Level 21, so it can be a bit weak at first, though giving it the Shock Wave TM makes this bearable. Once it got up to speed Koffing was a solid contributor throughout the entire run, boasting solid mixed offenses (90/85 attacking stats as Weezing with STAB Sludge Bomb and Thunderbolt/Fire move as coverage is very very good for route clearing), good physical bulk, Levitate allowing it to beat Ground-types instead of vice versa and Selfdestruct/Explosion as a highly valuable utility option to contribute in the majority of major battles (its only outright bad matchup is against Tate and Liza). Going in order:

Magma/Aqua: Solid MU all around, Koffing can't be Poisoned and Sludge/Shock Wave defeats most of their mons pretty easily, and as a bonus it floats over Numels' Ground moves so it really only has to fear Mightyenas (which aren't so bad once you evolve)
Flannery: Not going to take an Overheat, but it can outspeed Torkoal and Selfdestruct on it for a meaty hit so something else can finish it off, which isn't bad since Torkoal is by far the biggest threat here.
Norman: Can take out one mon with Selfdestruct or at least blow a hole into Slaking. Should take any one hit thanks to its good Defense.
Winona: At this point you're Weezing (you can easily hit Level 35 by this pt) and have Sludge Bomb/Thunderbolt. Weezing solos this fight with no effort, Altaria is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb, Weezing floats over EQ and +1 Aerial Ace does jack diddly to Weezing's 120 Defense. Everything else dies to Thunderbolt.
Tate and Liza: Bad matchup, moving on.
Wallace/Juan: Good matchup, TBolt the small fry and Explode on their ace. Probably can't defeat Whiscash on its own though.
Sidney: Overall fairly good matchup, his Weezing can comfortably take out Cacturne and his choice of Water-type. It can also conceivably kill Shiftry but Extrasensory will hurt if Shiftry is faster, which it could be.
Phoebe: Weezing takes Shadow Balls well and can learn Shadow Ball itself, so it does pretty okay here. One of the Banettes has Psychic but as long as your Weezing is faster (which an average Weezing should be) you'll be fine.
Glacia: Okayish leaning below average. Weezing can hit her whole team fairly hard with Fire Blast/Thunderbolt but gets hit hard back by Ice Beams since its special bulk is admittedly pretty low. Explosion will probably kill something.
Drake: Pretty alright, beats Altaria/Shelgon and can take out one of his other things with Explosion, most likely his Flygon.
Wallace: Fairly good, beats Ludicolo and Gyarados (Levitate is clutch here), can take out Whiscash with Explosion.
Steven: Decentish, beats Skarmory and Claydol (with Shadow Ball), can maybe take out Cradily.

On the whole Koffing's main weaknesses are that it takes some time to get Sludge and its special bulk isn't too great. That said, I think it does have a surprising amount to offer between its strong mixed offense, lack of defensive weaknesses barring Psychic, Levitate, and Explosion utility. It's an excellent route sweeper once it does get Sludge and can contribute fairly well in most major fights, and I think that Koffing could potentially rise to C-rank. At the very least I think it is clearly better than Grimer thanks to Levitate, boom utility, overall higher encounter rate (only has the bad encounter rate in Sapphire), and much higher SpA allowing it to get meaningful mileage out of its special coverage.

Anorith: Anorith is hot garbage and I think it can potentially be demoted to F-tier. Joins late, bad typing, bad moves (Rock Tomb is inaccurate and Secret Power isn't STAB, its best attacking move is literally Return), no good major battle MUs barring Team Magma sort of and cheesing Norman if you get it to Level 31 for Protect. Anorith is also in the Erratic EXP group so training it up to be level with the rest of your team is a huge pain, and getting it to Armaldo isn't worth it because of Armaldo's garbage speed and bad moves making it unable to even consistently hold its own as a route cleaner. It's also extremely terrible against the Elite Four - it can maybe take out 1-2 things on Sidney's team but its pretty awful against everyone else because it just can't keep up with the speed or power to do anything meaningful. Basically it joins after the period where Rock-types stop being useful (too weak to fight Norman and doesn't resist Flying for Winona) and has nothing to offer.

tl;dr Koffing up to C-tier, Anorith down to F-tier
Which game were you playing? I’m guessing Emerald based on Koffing’s availability combined with the Sableye on your team, but the inclusion of both Wallace and Steven at the end of the Koffing nom makes me a little worried about theorymonning, even if they mostly seem like pretty reasonable assumptions.

Also, what moves did Weezing have at the Elite Four? Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Explosion, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast are all mentioned; I presume you’d pick one of the last two, maybe Tbolt in Emerald for Wallace and Fire Blast for Steven in RS?

Totally agree with Anorith dropping. Even using an Armaldo with a high BP Hidden Power Bug was a painful grindfest, and that’s a best case scenario that obviously shouldn’t be considered for ranking.

You end up investing an absurd amount of time into something that requires continual healing and doesn’t learn a STAB move with more than 60 BP, discounting Rock Blast, which Anorith (not even Armaldo but Anorith!) has to wait till level 55 to learn. Ancientpower has so few PP that even if you’re outspeeding and KOing things, you won’t be sweeping any routes with it.
 

Merritt

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Which game were you playing? I’m guessing Emerald based on Koffing’s availability combined with the Sableye on your team, but the inclusion of both Wallace and Steven at the end of the Koffing nom makes me a little worried about theorymonning, even if they mostly seem like pretty reasonable assumptions.

Also, what moves did Weezing have at the Elite Four? Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Explosion, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast are all mentioned; I presume you’d pick one of the last two, maybe Tbolt in Emerald for Wallace and Fire Blast for Steven in RS?
The Steven bit would be partially my fault, I shared my usual experiences using Weezing vs Steven in Ruby.

e: To expand a bit beyond what Fireburn put, Steven's mons break down into three main categories vs Weezing - good/not bad, not recommended, and no. Skarmory is good, although it's got a good chance to get up Spikes, especially if you're not using Fire Blast. Cradily is not bad, it's vaguely slow and Confuse Ray makes that worse but Weezing should be able to get through. Both Claydol and Armaldo I wouldn't really recommend, Armaldo because it'll take a long time and is likely to need item support if Weezing is fighting anybody else, and Claydol because it's going to get up screens so you need to time to KO lest you have to fight Metagross behind screens. Metagross is a no for obvious reasons, but Aggron is actually because it does way more damage than you'd expect Aggron to be doing with special moves.
 
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Fireburn

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Which game were you playing? I’m guessing Emerald based on Koffing’s availability combined with the Sableye on your team, but the inclusion of both Wallace and Steven at the end of the Koffing nom makes me a little worried about theorymonning, even if they mostly seem like pretty reasonable assumptions.

Also, what moves did Weezing have at the Elite Four? Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Explosion, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast are all mentioned; I presume you’d pick one of the last two, maybe Tbolt in Emerald for Wallace and Fire Blast for Steven in RS?
This was in Emerald yes. I used Sludge Bomb/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Explosion (admittedly I gave Shadow Ball to Slaking because I was testing that too - I thought Sableye would be more effective here than it was. There normally isn't that much competition for the Shadow Ball TM so I think giving it to Weezing is reasonable). Shadow Ball can go over Thunderbolt in RS or Flamethrower in Emerald. With Shadow Ball an average Weezing can 2HKO the Banettes and should manage at least 3HKOes on the pair of Dusclops. The Psychic Banette is the only major threat here since Weezing takes Shadow Balls pretty well with its high Defense. It probably will not sweep but I'd say it does alright.
 
Shadow Ball can go over Thunderbolt in RS or Flamethrower in Emerald.
If Weezing had to choose between thunderbolt and flamethrower/fire blast, then I think thunderbolt is better in all 3 versions. RS still has a bunch of sea routes, a water gym, and Glacia. Even though Steven is supposed to be a steel specialist, only 2 of his Pokemon are weak to fire. One of them is just as weak to electric, and Weezing usually can't touch the other even if it knows fire blast.
 

Fireburn

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If Weezing had to choose between thunderbolt and flamethrower/fire blast, then I think thunderbolt is better in all 3 versions. RS still has a bunch of sea routes, a water gym, and Glacia. Even though Steven is supposed to be a steel specialist, only 2 of his Pokemon are weak to fire. One of them is just as weak to electric, and Weezing usually can't touch the other even if it knows fire blast.
You only need Shadow Ball for Phoebe so you can just use both until then, no need to choose.
 

Coconut

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Just finished a quick playthrough of Emerald with the following mons: Pelipper, Muk, Grumpig, Minun, Ninjask, Golduck. I don't have a ton of time to talk about how each mon performed really, but I want to talk about what I think about Muk and Ninjask in particular. The former because it's sparked some discussion, the latter because I think it's due for a rise for a specific reason.

Muk is an interesting Pokemon. It's tanky and has a pretty cool attack stat, it's Grimer stage kinda sucks but it's Muk stage isn't bad once you get to it. But I want to make it abundantly clear that there is nothing you can tell me to convince me that this is a B-Rank Pokemon. It's painfully slow, has a stab that requires a TM and it has absolutely no options for coverage for a long time. I happen to catch an Adamant one, which was nice, but it also limited me from it's already abysmal movepool. After spending some time finding it specifically, I quickly realized that this pokemon will be useless for quite a bit of time. While it does have an extremely good route to grind off of immediately after capture, containing the Lotad/Nuzleaf line and Swablu, it needs significant babying to get anywhere. In all boss fights, this pokemon will do next to nothing. This alone is already notable enough for me to say it is not worth C-Rank, but I will continue. After giving it plenty of free experience through routes, Muk also requires TMs to do significant damage. Sludge is an awful STAB that Grimer is forced to use until defeating the 5th gym. Not because Sludge is awful, but because Poison STAB is awful. Thankfully, Sludge Bomb isn't really that useful on other things, but it's still notable that this mon does not get a useful move until then. Throwing Grimer Dig or Rock Tomb is nice but Dig is worth more on so many other things, in my case Ninjask, so I opted to give my Rock Tomb. Rock Tomb in gen 3 has 50 BP and 80 Acc, and thank goodness it's not in the speedrun anymore. Grimer doesn't even get Strength until it evolves into a Muk. Grimer/Muk just needs a lot of help to get through it's painfully bad midgame.

To summarize my thoughts: decent route clearer, but you will be walled by something eventually and you can only take so much chip damage. Bad boss fights, does not pull it's weight at any point in the game in that respect. Needs TMs and healing items constantly to be worth running with. This mon would be an albatross in B, and would be hard to convince me to even move it to C. Maybe in Sapphire alone? Even that's a bit of a reach.

Ninjask on the other hand is an enigma to me. While I originally expected this mon to be terrible, because Nincada does not level up, I was quite surprised with what exactly I could do with it. While early game this mon is pretty awful, I'm going to make a hot take and say that Ninjask's viability should be more notable because it comes with Shedinja, who is extremely good in boss fights. While I never put experience into Shedinja intentionally, being able to wall specific Pokemon in boss fights is extremely useful and should not be disregarded. For example, I was able to cheese the fight with Norman by rotating between my Protect Leppa Berry Pelipper and Shedinja on his Linoone and Slaking. This was the last major fight that I used Shedinja for, but by this time Ninjask had the one move that made it useable; Swords Dance. Once Ninjask had Swords Dance, it became an instantly more viable Pokemon. While throwing it Dig makes it quite useable vs Flannery, it becomes a significantly good route clearer because of it's insane speed, respectable coverage, and ability to run through fights like May 3, Ninjask should most likely be placed in D-Rank.

Ninjask has a notable attack and speed stat, mediocre options like Slash, Dig and Aerial Ace which can all be buffed by the wonderful Swords Dance, great route clear, but it's not completely useless in boss fights. It also comes with an extra pokemon, who can fill a specific niche in boss fights, upping it's usefulness drastically in the early game vs Wattson and Norman.
 

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I finally finished my 4 separate runs with the main Poison-types in the game, so I can evaluate them thoroughly.

First impressions: Gulpin's measly base Attack stat is frankly unnoticeable when you're outdamaging the majority of opponents with 65 BP Sludge when you first obtain it. Gulpins can also be found at level 13, meaning Sludge is merely one level away. It has a huuuuge stretch of easy training opportunities that the other later Poison-types simply do not have. Note: it's important to get a female Gulpin since pretty much all of the notable Attract Pokemon Swalot will be facing are female.
Moveset:
Gulpin's movepool is easily the most pivotal amongst the Poison-type brethren, containing moves such as Yawn, Amnesia, Encore, and Ice Beam that can allow it to contribute or even outright win matchups that it (and its brethren) otherwise has little hope of sweeping through. That said, Gulpin can make use of cute coverage such as Bullet Seed and Shock Wave to make certain matchups easier for it, while Swalot can expand its horizons a little with Earthquake, Shadow Ball, and Giga Drain if it really wants to. However, Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, and Amnesia are all mandatory, and Giga Drain can become pretty important for the Water-type boss fights solely for preventing Whiscash from interrupting a sweep.
General Route performance:
As mentioned earlier, Gulpin's earlier power issues are remedied for the most part with STAB Sludge, and when its power starts to wane it shouldn't be too far off from evolving to catch up again. Sludge Bomb will be enough to keep Swalot's neutral power relevant enough for the rest of the game.
Boss Matchups: Brawly provides a really nice stepping stone for Gulpin; the Confusion Meditites are annoying but Machops are easy pickings. though Gulpin isn't expected to take on Makuhita by itself, but it can easily sneak in a Yawn and/or Encore to leave Makuhita wide open for teammates. Gulpin has a field day against Rival2's whole team bar Marshtomp, though Growls are annoying and Amnesia is needed for Combusken. It can Yawn Wattson's Pokemon but that's about it. Gulpin could try to face off against Maxie/Archie's Golbat with Yawn + Shock Wave, but this is still a rather uphill battle unless it is already a Swalot. Swalot's Amnesia lets it take out Flannery by itself, and Encore seals this fight even further. Swalot is also expected to just Yawn vs Norman's Slakings, but bulky sleep users are a rare and appreciated commodity in this fight. It's unwise to solo Winona without the use of X Speed, but Swalot is still expected to take out Altaria one-on-one. Ice Beam is nice against the team leader's Crobat whenever you face it. Tate&Liza. Wallace/Juan would be the point in the game where Swalot starts relying on X-items if it wants to contribute well; it wants to be wary of Whiscash and Wallace's Horn Drill Seaking (though it can Giga Drain the former, and Swalot should survive an Earthquake if Giga Drain fails to OHKO), but .
E4 Matchups: Sidney is a decent enough matchup, with Swalot expected to do more damage in the neutral back-and-forth trading of blows. Even without Shadow Ball, Swalot doesn't actually have a hopeless matchup against Phoebe since Amnesia can greatly weaken Psychics, meaning it is still capable of beating her Sableye and Banettes with repeated Ice Beams (may need to heal burns against the Wisping Banette); meanwhile the Curse Dusclops and the Earthquake Dusclops may still prove too troublesome even with Shadow Ball, which is why I think Shadow Ball isn't a terrific asset here. Amnesia is another nice asset to have against Glacia since her only threatening attacks are Explosion Glalie (only in Emerald) and Sheer Cold Walrein, though you may want an X Attack or two to burn through less Sludge Bombs while sweeping her team as well as lessen the risk of her using/landing the attacks that might end your sweep. Ice Beam is obviously invaluable in the Drake matchup, especially if you have an X Speed to spare. If you don't, just avoid the Flygon in Emerald (Ruby/Sapphire Drake's Flygons don't even have Earthquake) and you should be fine, though be mindful of Swalot's remaining health when it faces Salamence, unless you've managed an Amnesia beforehand.

Swalot isn't doing a whole lot against Steven. It does have Earthquake to smack Aggron and Metagross, but those are risky targets; the best that Swalot is expected to do is Ice Beam Cradily or maybe poke a bit at Claydol. Wallace is a pretty ok matchup provided it avoids Gyarados (Whiscash can be Giga Drained); Amnesia lets Swalot hard wall the rest of Wallace's team, and after the Earthquake users are gone Swalot can take its time with some X Attacks.
Verdict: Swalot serves as an early-game fat mon that can sit there trading blows against some early-game big bosses, which is a niche few other early-game mons can claim. What's more, Swalot can carry out that game plan even to the late-game, using either super effective (particularly 4x effective) Ice Beams or X-Attack boosted Sludge Bombs to help it sweep or at least hold its own. While its increasing reliance on X-items towards the endgame boss fights may seem inefficient, Swalot's access to a +2 boosting defensive move makes it a more reliable (or at least less Potion-hungry) X-item abuser than most other candidates, especially with Swalot's useful coverage, general bulk, and lack of exploitative weaknesses giving it an edge over nearly all the other +2 defense boosting Pokemon in the game. That said, Swalot's niche does weaken toward the endgame due to the advent of Calm Mind, but it can still keep going strong with what it can do much earlier than those endgame Calm Mind users. Personally I'd like to see it rise to C, but I am content with it staying D.

First impressions: Grimer already comes with Sludge which is really nice, as it can start outputting respectable damage immediately. However, the late evolution level does set it back substantially.
Moveset: Grimer will be reliant on spamming Sludge for a good while, since the other moves it learns (both level-up and TM) don't really give it a terrific offensive edge, though Screech is worth keeping around since Muk has the bulk to use it well, particularly against opponents such as Juan, Glacia, and Wallace. Thunderbolt and Flamethrower/Fire Blast give it some neat alternative firepower, though since Grimer/Muk should already have its powerful Sludge Bomb by that point, they don't end up shining quite as much.
General Route performance: Grimer is more than strong enough to hold its own in general encounters due to its powerful Sludge/Sludge Bomb, though its route-clearing efficiency is still somewhat held back by its mediocre speed (that said, this is an issue that plagues all of the pure Poison-types).
Gym Matchups: Here is where Grimer falters quite a bit. It's not really doing much more than picking off the bosses' small fry even up until Winona, or perhaps throwing off a suicidal Screech and letting a teammate handle it. When it does finally evolve, it can't even participate against Tate&Liza, meaning the earliest important matchup it has is likely against the Team Magma/Aqua Leader, where it can Thunderbolt the Crobat and blast Sharpedo apart. Its matchup against Wallace/Juan is plenty decent, particularly against their ace, where it can Screech them into Sludge Bomb OHKO range without having to deal with any Recover/Rest nonsense.
E4 Matchups: Sidney is not a hard fight to begin with, though Muk's raw power and Thunderbolt access does give it an edge over the other Poisons. Muk can't touch Phoebe though, outside of its old strategy of Screeching and running. Muk has an ok matchup against Glacia with Fire Blast and Thunderbolt, but Muk may burn through its fair share of Hyper Potions trying to sweep through her team, though Screech + Sludge Bomb does help with PP conservation. Against Drake it's pretty much just a tank as you'd expect, though it struggles to bring down Salamence without being forced to heal, much less smoothly sweep his team. Muk can pick off most of Steven's less threatening Pokemon, though it puts itself at risk if it tries to tackle Aggron/Metagross. Wallace is a good matchup since it beats all the non-Earthquake users, and is especially effective at bypassing Milotic with Screech.
Verdict: While Grimer can definitely handle itself against route fodder, and Muk itself certainly isn't a bad mon with passable to great endgame matchups, the period between when you obtain Grimer and when it finally evolves into Muk to actually start putting in work against bosses is too great to ignore. This shouldn't rise higher than D, but I can at least agree with a compromise of RE Grimer rising from F Tier to E Tier.

First impressions: Unfortunately, Koffing does not come with Sludge, and has to level up a significant amount before it gets any usable STAB, putting it behind the curve already. Moreover, it also evolves fairly late, so it's stuck as Koffing for a pretty long period of time.
Moveset: Its offensive moveset, gameplan, and issues are largely similiar to Grimer/Muk's, with the added benefit of Selfdestruct/Explosion utility and a bit more Special Attack to give Thunderbolt and Flamethrower/Fire Blast a bit more bite. That said, blowing up isn't particularly ideal in terms of efficiency, and Weezing's special coverage isn't expected to kill much that Muk can't kill. However, unlike the other Poison-types, Koffing is TM-reliant immediately.
General Route performance: The early period is rather rough what with basically no STAB, though Shock Wave and Secret Power should hold it down for the time being, thanks to Koffing's offensive stats being just passable enough to make them work. These TMs also give Koffing more to do than just spamming Sludge all the time, though Koffing does suffer a worse babying period if those TMs are needed by its teammates.
Gym Matchups: Koffing suffers similarly to Grimer when it comes to boss fights, though going BOOM is usually more efficient (not to mention more accurate) than suicidal Screech when it comes to softening up bosses. Smokescreen can be hilarious against Norman though. Koffing's earlier evolution level compared to Grimer's matters here, as Winona is Weezing's best matchup in the entire game, as it can Thunderbolt all her lesser birds and easily tank Altaria 1v1. Tate&Liza. Weezing can also comfortably solo Maxie since his Pokemon can barely scratch it. Archie's Sharpedo can hurt with Crunch, but is also easily picked off with Thunderbolt. As for Wallace/Juan, the majority of his team can be Thunderbolted for a 2HKO, though Weezing may take substantial damage and struggles to efficiently bypass Whiscash. It can Explode on Milotic and Kingdra to immediately remove them, though be wary about missing against Kingdra's Double Team; otherwise they're an uphill battle for Weezing.
E4 Matchups: Again, Sidney is not a hard matchup, though the Water/Dark type can do some damage with their special STAB, as can Extrasensory Shiftry, in exchange for taking down Absol easier. Weezing does learn Shadow Ball, but it's vulnerable to Psychics from Sableye and Banette, though it fares well against Phoebe's ace Dusclops. Weezing's slightly stronger special coverage lets it do more raw damage to Glacia than Muk can, but it also takes more damage from her. Weezing is unable to handle Drake's more threatening Pokemon in Kingdra and Salamence, and Weezing's Ground immunity is made less useful as it is liable to get equally/outdamaged by his Flygons. Weezing is safer against Steven's Aggron and Claydol but otherwise doesn't hurt much. Gyarados is Weezing's most favorable matchup, but otherwise all of Wallace's other Pokemon hurt Weezing substantially.
Verdict: Koffing does manage to make major contributions earlier than Grimer thanks to kabooms and earlier evolution, but it has a rougher starting phase and notably worse endgame matchups due to its lackluster special bulk overshadowing its high physical bulk and Ground immunity. Still, S Koffing probably does at least deserve to rise to E Tier.

First impressions: Its stats are pretty good from when you first obtain it, though obviously it can't improve from there. Seviper is also only available in Sapphire and Emerald, meaning it doesn't have to endure its least favorite version in Ruby where it's just Team Magma and their camels.
Moveset: Poison Tail is no Sludge, but with Seviper's Attack stat it should suffice until it picks up Sludge Bomb, though level 15 Sevipers do not come with this move, only the level 17 ones. Seviper gets Screech, of which it's not as effective a user as Muk due to lesser bulk, but it does get Glare to cripple a boss and patch up its Speed, though it's only 75% accurate. Seviper's notable TM movepool consists of Dig (can be replaced with Earthquake), Flamethrower (no Fire Blast), and Giga Drain, which is passable but not exceptional.
General Route performance: Between Poison STAB, Bite/Crunch, and Dig/Earthquake, Seviper should have little issue cleaning out most route trainers.
Gym Matchups: Already it's not looking up; the best that Seviper can hope to do is Glare Sharpedo (Seviper needs to be level 25 to learn this), as Seviper is at a disadvantage against anything else but the inexplicable Zubat that the team leaders have in Emerald. It can Dig Flannery's Slugmas and Camerupt (Numel's Magnitude makes Dig not an option), though it's unlikely to OHKO the latter and Seviper is liable to eat a sun-boosted Overheat to the face. Best it can do vs Torkoal is Glare cheese. Seviper isn't a good pick against Norman either what with middling power and Facade potentially making Glare a liability. It can Flamethrower Winona's Skarmory, trade neutral blows with the other two birds, and try to Glare Altaria; the latter is the most crucial contribution but also the riskiest since Seviper could miss and just get bowled over. Tate&Liza. Against the team leaders, it can Giga Drain the Sharpedo and Earthquake the Camerupt, but aside from that it doesn't perform spectacularly against Maxie/Archie, nor does it even guarantee the victory (Camerupt can still 1v1 Seviper easily). Seviper gets Giga Drain as well as Screech + Sludge Bomb for Juan/Wallace, but its bulk isn't nearly good enough to attempt this reliably, not to mention Screech is unlikely to remain on Seviper's moveset for this long when it has to compete with various other moves as it is.
E4 Matchups: Sidney ain't hard, but Seviper's low speed and bulk can actually make it difficult for Seviper to even manage a 4-mon sweep. Crunch only goes so far against Phoebe as Seviper is still going to have to take painful Psychics or Earthquake. Glacia and Drake aren't much better either, as their Pokemon either outspeed or tank. and most certainly do a chunk with each hit. Seviper's only safe matchups against Steven are Skarmory and Cradily, whereas it can beat Wallace's Ludicolo and possibly 1v1 Wailord/Tentacruel, but expecting anything more than that out of Seviper is optimistic.
Verdict: It starts off with decent enough stats and power, but Seviper starts to lag behind pretty soon into the mid-lategame thanks to being cursed with low bulk AND speed. It also doesn't have the pivotal movepool that Swalot has to give it an explosive edge, making its lategame matchups pretty much flops. Honestly I am inclined to see Seviper drop from D to E, what with it doing only decent at best and being fodder at worst in most matchups.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ninjask on the other hand is an enigma to me. While I originally expected this mon to be terrible, because Nincada does not level up, I was quite surprised with what exactly I could do with it. While early game this mon is pretty awful, I'm going to make a hot take and say that Ninjask's viability should be more notable because it comes with Shedinja, who is extremely good in boss fights. While I never put experience into Shedinja intentionally, being able to wall specific Pokemon in boss fights is extremely useful and should not be disregarded. For example, I was able to cheese the fight with Norman by rotating between my Protect Leppa Berry Pelipper and Shedinja on his Linoone and Slaking. This was the last major fight that I used Shedinja for, but by this time Ninjask had the one move that made it useable; Swords Dance. Once Ninjask had Swords Dance, it became an instantly more viable Pokemon. While throwing it Dig makes it quite useable vs Flannery, it becomes a significantly good route clearer because of it's insane speed, respectable coverage, and ability to run through fights like May 3, Ninjask should most likely be placed in D-Rank.

Ninjask has a notable attack and speed stat, mediocre options like Slash, Dig and Aerial Ace which can all be buffed by the wonderful Swords Dance, great route clear, but it's not completely useless in boss fights. It also comes with an extra pokemon, who can fill a specific niche in boss fights, upping it's usefulness drastically in the early game vs Wattson and Norman.
First I'd like to interject and say that Ninjask and Shedinja should be (and already have been) ranked separately based on their own merits. Shedinja being situationally useful shouldn't factor into Ninjask's viability since Ninjask can just be ignored/ditched at that point and training focuses on Shedinja. First let me rant about Shedinja, as I personally think that Sheddy's ability to hardwall a very few specific important mons in the game is far too overrated to justify the sheer chore of raising it up to usable levels. Here are the list of mons of notable trainers that Shedinja can wall throughout the game:
- Rival 2's Marshtomp
- Wattson's Electrike & Manectric
- Liza's Lunatone
- Wallace's Milotic / Juan's Kingdra
- Sidney's Crawdaunt
- Glacia's Walrein (unless Hail is still active)
- Drake's Altaria (RS) / Kingdra (E)
- Steven's Aggron / Metagross (unless Spikes are up)
- Wallace's Wailord, Whiscash, & Gyarados

That is it; those are all the important mons (some of them not even in the running; who cares about Electrike/Crawdaunt?) you intend for Shedinja to wall. This is your reward for putting up with a mon that both takes a tediously long time to evolve AND level up as well as being a hassle in regular encounters since it needs to pick its battles so carefully. I don't understand how this meager upside of walling only a handful of ace mons is worth any of this effort; as far as I'm concerned, in-game Shedinja is the hallmark of an inefficient mon, in the "just because you could, doesn't mean you should" sense. Even your use of Shedinja + Pelipper against Norman to justify Sheddy's worth is simply another shining example of its inefficiency; like why are you resorting to PP stalling (literally the most inefficient way to beat something) when you could have just headed to Fiery Path after beating Flannery, use Strength to get the Toxic TM, and solo Norman with your Protect Pelipper alone? Or just shove X Special Attacks down your Pelipper's piehole every other turn? Both methods are way more efficient than bothering to lug around a Shedinja, especially when you still had to go through the laborious task of whittling down Slaking's HP (& Hyper Potions) even after it has exhausted its PP.

Now for Ninjask itself. You said it yourself that Ninjask finally became usable after it got Swords Dance. Not good, but simply usable. The implication here being that even after the tiresome process of dragging Nincada around long enough for it to finally evolve (or grinding it, either way, still inefficient), Ninjask STILL cannot hold its own until further investment. You're telling me that Swords Dance made Ninjask more viable, but against what exactly? Route trainers? Rival 3? If all Ninjask is doing with its Swords Dances is killing route fodder or pathetic excuses for boss fights, that's not noteworthy. I certainly don't see Ninjask safely getting a Swords Dance against important trainers bar lucky situations like not getting Overheated / double targeted turn 1 against Flannery and Tate&Liza respectively, much less be able to sweep. Its paper bulk, awful typing, and even mediocre offensive options (its best STAB in Aerial Ace doesn't come for a long time, so it's stuck with unSTAB Secret Power and Dig for 3 gyms) simply don't amount to Ninjask doing much in crucial matchups; in fact all of those traits cause Ninjask to necessitate Swords Dance in >1 mon route fights simply because it is just that bad at trading the inevitable neutral blows. If it got Baton Pass earlier there may be some hope for it, but for now all I see is a mon whose access to Swords Dance merely patches up its issues with route clearing and pretty much nothing else, which even that it struggled to do before. I cannot see this thing getting out of E Rank anytime soon.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Punchshroom can you clarify what you mean by "compromise to E"? I don't think anyone is arguing Grimer should be E or stay in F and it's completely unreasonable to argue that position, I've been pushing for C and you and others are moreso supporting D so wouldn't a compromise placement for something obviously not supposed to be in F be D rank?
 

Punchshroom

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Punchshroom can you clarify what you mean by "compromise to E"? I don't think anyone is arguing Grimer should be E or stay in F and it's completely unreasonable to argue that position, I've been pushing for C and you and others are moreso supporting D so wouldn't a compromise placement for something obviously not supposed to be in F be D rank?
I don't know if you noticed, but RE Grimer is in F rank right now. All I'm saying is that while I don't think Grimer is good enough to rise above D, the rarer version of Grimer isn't bad enough to warrant F either. And judging from the tier placements so far, people apparently don't see S Grimer and RE Grimer as being quite on the same league with each other.
 

Merritt

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Alright ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls of all ages, it's that wonderful time of year when we update. Here's the the Poison (and one Bug type) mini-update.

Rises:
Grimer (S) rises from E tier to D tier
Koffing (S) rises from F tier to E tier
Grimer (RE) rises from F tier to E tier

Drops:
Roselia drops from C tier to D tier
Anorith drops from E tier to F tier

Let's talk reasoning to head off being asked about each of them.

Koffing (S) should not have gone in F tier when D was separated in the first place. This was a mistake when doing separations and I apologize for it.

Grimer was severely underranked. This has been rectified cautiously. Both Grimer and Koffing are up for discussion for both versions moving up a subrank (to C/D split instead of D/E split along version lines) but do not get aggressive with each other. Nitpicking each other's posts is not a compelling piece of reasoning for things to move.

Roselia has dropped because despite its very good early performance and decent usefulness against several lategame opponents, when it falls off it falls off hard due to lacking adequate power and utility options - while it has access to some of the stronger single turn Grass type moves in the game they're still rather weak at 60 BP, and its low Attack mean that Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb (Roselia's only other useful options) aren't capable of performing effectively. It also has an extreme frailty issue, especially physically, that makes it a risk to use. Unlike Roselia, Vileplume has more power (both due to Petal Dance and its notably better Attack letting it use Sludge Bomb effectively) and more utility in the form of Sleep Powder in exchange for only slightly less Speed and a worse start.

Anorith drops for the reasons cited by Fireburn.

Nominations not addressed here are not necessarily denied, they simply are not happening in this update. Please feel free to continue discussing nominations not addressed in this post, as well as Koffing and Grimer potentially rising another rank or staying where they are. Again, good discussion is not nitpicking each other's posts. Thank you.
 

Punchshroom

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I made a post about Cacnea like 2 months back...
This Pokemon, on the other hand, I have no qualms with dropping:


D to E

This mon manages to suffer even worse issues than Seedot. Cacnea's biggest flaw is that it doesn't learn its good moves until significantly later, with Needle Arm being learned by Cacturne at level 41, at which point you should already be settling with the Giga Drain TM. Until then, it is stuck with a horrendous level-up movepool, and even its TM movepool doesn't do much to help. Even then, Cacturne is nothing to write home about, since it's slow, frail, and doesn't have high BP moves, which just outweigh the benefits its typing grants in certain matchups, and are issues that most certainly rear their ugly heads when trying to train up a Cacnea to begin with. Even Nuzleaf has slightly better route-clearing matchups thanks to Nature Power, and Shiftry at least has Chlorophyll + SunnyBeam for bursts in speed and power that Cacturne can only dream of.
...but I feel it bears repeating.

Cacnea is basically helpless the moment you get it, and stays that way for a very long while. Its starting movepool is utter garbage, with Absorb (level 19-20) or Pin Missile (level 21) as its only attacking moves until Feint Attack (level 29), which is still non-STAB. It's already bad enough being both super slow AND super frail, but Cacnea cannot even muster up any form of decent offense as it gets overwhelmed by even the wild mons of the upcoming routes, much less trainers, unless you feel like sticking around the desert just to grind this thing, which is inefficient and hinders progress. Cacnea's trainwreck of a movepool doesn't end there though, as its other STAB in Needle Arm isn't learned by Cacturne until quite late, so it pretty much needs the Giga Drain TM (heck, it may even need the Bullet Seed TM to sustain itself until it reaches the Giga Drain TM). What's worse, Cacturne's TM movepool is completely barren, possessing basically nothing but Normal attacks and moves like Focus Punch and SolarBeam that won't even execute before Cacturne is killed.

Basically, Cacnea/Cacturne faces horrendous Speed and bulk issues throughout the entire game, and its power only becomes not completely trash once it finally evolves and gets its best dual STABs, which aren't even spectacular enough in power to remotely patch up its persisting problems. Honestly the main reason I don't just outright nom this for F tier is because it happens to have some decent lategame matchups by virtue of its typing, though even that can be undermined due to the existence of Ice Beaming Water-types which can exploit Cacturne's poor bulk and Speed to 1v1 it regardless. This is just a sad mon.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Brief update since I've got the chance to play some more, Natu is definitely underranked and should go back to D, even underlevelled (36-37) it was the MVP of the Tate and Liza fight with Xatu and Solrock doing the kindness of setting up Sunny Day for the Solar Beam. Raichu cameod with the t1 OHKO of Xatu and Banette assisted with breaking things alongside Xatu.

My impression of Xatu so far is that it's much faster than I expected, fastest on the team (roughly 235 at level 100 based on current pace) just ahead of Raichu, it has some fairly respectable bulk inasfar as it having decent inherent bulk and useful resistances, and it's definitely up to par on strength with the day 1 move pool it can learn.

My biggest concern was definitely it having no moves to support itself but with it being able to become a Xatu immediately (Rare Candy), and to be a strong fighter out the gate by investing Psychic, Solar Beam, and Fly, it's been very solid.

Definitely should be D instead of E, and mayyybe an outside chance at C, following the other guys nomination, depending on if it ends up having a strong league performance (unlikely)



Rhyhorn continues to make a case for F, it's pretty bad, slow, okay bulk, not all that strong to compensate, bad typing for the point in the game you get it, and very difficult to train with the water routes ahead. It's finally made it up to passable now that it's overlevelling most of the wild routes/trainers, but it will need an impressive performance as Rhydon to salvage E in my eyes.

Pikachu/Grimer/Shuppet all tracking to D, Shuppet in particular is the glass cannon definition, very strong for an NFE but very very fragile.

Still think Seaking is tracking to E, rather than F. Definitely the worst water type but its not actively bad and the general water stab/ice beam combo carries enough value for it to be useful which, combined with an above expectation early game (where the expectation was that it would be trash) is likely enough to pull it out of the bottom tier.


Edit: I'm wondering if I'll end up with more value sticking calm mind on Xatu instead of sunny day, maybe keep sunny day through Juan and then switch?
 
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Not sure who considered Rhyhorn to be anything above F. I can contest to say Rhyhorn is hot garbage not worth using because lategame Hoenn is very unkind to it. It has 3 so-so notable matchups: Maxie 2 (who's honestly a joke), half the Victory Road and RS Drake. All of its other matchups are simply unfavorable to LOL. Absolute pain to use. The moves that it would like to have at a point where it may have had a good matchup or two come way too late in its level up movepool.

Absol, I can vouch for B as well. Yes, Absol is TM hungry. Yes, Absol is fairly frail, but it fits the definition of B quite well, which is: "Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. "
From my experience, +2 physical moves (thanks to Swords Dance) off of base 130 attack was doing exactly that, while in some battles it did need a healing item or two to reach sweeping potential.

Also, can someone explain to me how Minun (RE) is E while Plusle (RE) is F? Neither one are good in RSE, but Plusle has higher special attack as well as access to Fake Tears, which at least gives it a significant power advantage to Minun, who only has Charm instead. Either both should be E or F, but definitely not separated.
 
Also, can someone explain to me how Minun (RE) is E while Plusle (RE) is F? Neither one are good in RSE, but Plusle has higher special attack as well as access to Fake Tears, which at least gives it a significant power advantage to Minun, who only has Charm instead. Either both should be E or F, but definitely not separated.
In Ruby and Emerald, on Route 110, Minun's encounter chance is 15%, and Plusle's is 2%. This means Plusle often takes a long time to catch, and Plusle's performance doesn't offset the fact that catching it is frustrating. The reverse is true in Sapphire.
good discussion is not nitpicking each other's posts
In the tier list, Relicanth is listed above Regirock and Registeel.
 

Punchshroom

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I'm wondering if I'll end up with more value sticking calm mind on Xatu instead of sunny day, maybe keep sunny day through Juan and then switch?
You definitely want Calm Mind for the Juan fight; it's your best bet of plowing through Kingdra (or just not get 1v1ed) if you can set up on Whiscash (Luvdisc if Xatu is female) beforehand. I'd recommend a final moveset of Psychic / Calm Mind / Sunny Day / Solarbeam before challenging the Elite 4 though.

Also, can someone explain to me how Minun (RE) is E while Plusle (RE) is F? Neither one are good in RSE, but Plusle has higher special attack as well as access to Fake Tears, which at least gives it a significant power advantage to Minun, who only has Charm instead. Either both should be E or F, but definitely not separated.
As sumwun mentioned, the ranking disparity has to do with their differences in rarity in those versions. With my experience with both rodents, they're pretty much on par with each other so I don't rate Plusle higher than Minun. Plusle's Fake Tears has greater lategame value where it can break fat things like Milotic, Kingdra, and Walrein, whereas Minun's Charm can help against earlier bosses such as Norman's Slaking and Winona's Altaria, letting it either at least contribute or outright cleansweep in some situations where Plusle otherwise could not.

That said, I definitely don't think they're bad enough to be in E Rank and F Rank respectively, but I'll talk more about them again after my next update.
 
Here's a mon i question
Mawlie(R) is in E Tier

mawile_animated_crystal_sprite_by_matdemo159-dc8c08c.gif

Cute as it is, this thing has no place to be that high. With stats like those, it literally can only function as either an Intimidate Bot(which Migthyena does better of all things) or a Rock Smash slave which Makuhita, Geodude, Aron, Gulpin, Zigzagoon, and even Poochyena can do, all earlier for that matter. It's gym matchups are awful, with the 2nd-4th being impossible due to a poor type matchup, and Gyms 6-8 being impossible due to it's awful stats. Heck it doesn't even come with a offensive move other than ASTONISH.

This mon has no right to sit with Lileep or Sableye. Mawlie(R) for F tier

edit: also wat you can get a corsola?
 
Here's a mon i question
Mawlie(R) is in E Tier

View attachment 146050
Cute as it is, this thing has no place to be that high. With stats like those, it literally can only function as either an Intimidate Bot(which Migthyena does better of all things) or a Rock Smash slave which Makuhita, Geodude, Aron, Gulpin, Zigzagoon, and even Poochyena can do, all earlier for that matter. It's gym matchups are awful, with the 2nd-4th being impossible due to a poor type matchup, and Gyms 6-8 being impossible due to it's awful stats. Heck it doesn't even come with a offensive move other than ASTONISH.

This mon has no right to sit with Lileep or Sableye. Mawlie(R) for F tier
This is what Merritt said last time someone said Mawile should be F.
Mawile - Emerald Mawile is garbage, being quite literally the last Pokemon available before postgame. Ruby Mawile manages F purely on stats alone, being extremely good for that point in the game, and not falling off for a decent while later. Its movepool is unimpressive but suffices for helping against rival 2, somewhat against Wattson and Norman, and can be used a little against Winona although you're better off slaving it at that point, as Intimidate makes it at least somewhat useful for support in battles unlike most pure HM slaves. Essentially Mawile's a decent crutch to get you through earlygame into midgame, and so doesn't reach the levels of awful for F tier.
 
Ok so yeah Intimidate is a cool ability, but that doesn't stop the fact that thats all it does. It cannot battle for the life of it.

Rival 2 is only possible with Grovyle and Wailmer. Everything else hits you SE, or in the case of shroomish stall you out. Wattson is impossible, Special attacks murder Mawlie and Intimidate does jack squat. Norman's 1st Slaking maybe can be Intimidated into uselessness, but the other one has Focus Punch to evicirate you. Every matchup starting from Route 119 is awful as Mawlie stats lag behind. HM slave? Huh? All it learns is Rock Smash and Strength, which Linooe, Migthyena, Hariyama, Tropius and even goshdarm Muk can do better.

Essentially, i see no reason that this deserves anything other than F tier, all it does is spam Intimidate which is useless for Wattson, Flannery and Maxie and maybe useful for Norman, but after that dies as it can,t keep up with anything else. It's TM movepool is good tho.
 

Merritt

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Ok so yeah Intimidate is a cool ability, but that doesn't stop the fact that thats all it does. It cannot battle for the life of it.

Rival 2 is only possible with Grovyle and Wailmer. Everything else hits you SE, or in the case of shroomish stall you out. Wattson is impossible, Special attacks murder Mawlie and Intimidate does jack squat. Norman's 1st Slaking maybe can be Intimidated into uselessness, but the other one has Focus Punch to evicirate you. Every matchup starting from Route 119 is awful as Mawlie stats lag behind. HM slave? Huh? All it learns is Rock Smash and Strength, which Linooe, Migthyena, Hariyama, Tropius and even goshdarm Muk can do better.

Essentially, i see no reason that this deserves anything other than F tier, all it does is spam Intimidate which is useless for Wattson, Flannery and Maxie and maybe useful for Norman, but after that dies as it can,t keep up with anything else. It's TM movepool is good tho.
Have you ever used Ruby Mawile? Serious question. It's not very good but these are really, really bad arguments. Special attacks don't "murder" Mawile, you're acting like this is Deoxys-A level defenses. Sure, it can't take on Magneton but it can take on Magnemite and Voltorb fine enough, just as it can take on Shroomish because Fake Tears into Bite will take it out without much issue.

You're claiming that a Slaking can KO Mawile with Focus Punch. I mean yes, in theory Slaking can KO a Mawile used by somebody who's playing absolutely braindead. Why the hell are you healing or using a status move or whatever on the turns Slaking attacks?
 
HM slave? Huh? All it learns is Rock Smash and Strength, which Linooe, Migthyena, Hariyama, Tropius and even goshdarm Muk can do better.
In-game tier lists estimate how useful a Pokemon is given that someone already decided to use it, and not something like what it can do that other options can't or how much it's worth using compared to other options. If there was a Pokemon that was identical to Kadabra in every way, except it learned psybeam at level 22 instead of 21, then it would still be A tier even though Kadabra completely outclasses it.

Even if you do compare Mawile to the other rock smash and strength slaves, Mawile is better. Unlike Linoone, Mightyena, and Muk, Mawile does not require rock smash to catch (I guess Linoone and Mightyena are technically obtainable without rock smash, but the required grinding is comparable to the grinding required to make Mawile strong). You don't need to go through the trouble of getting a different rock smash user and replacing it. And among the early-game HM slaves, there are probably only 2 with remotely useful abilities. (as you may have guessed, the other is Zigzagoon) If Tropius can be C tier just by learning rock smash, strength, and fly, then Mawile can be E tier just by learning rock smash and strength.
 
Alright i decided to do a Ruby run with Mawlie to see if it is worthy of it's placement. I will also be doing Shroomish to see if S tier is a good placement for it and maybe No Trade Geodude.
 
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