Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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If you ask me, if there's a "S-" Rank, Zangoose and Ralts could fit that criteria. As of now, one certainly has the argument that they're the best or/and most consistent of the A Ranks, with probably the only things holding them back being that Ralts only starts taking off early-mid game while Zangoose is unavailable until then too.

Merritt

vileplume.png

Name: Oddish (Vileplume)
Availability: Route 110, 10%, Level 13
Stats: High Special Attack, middling Attack stat, and has good general bulk, but is slow. Sunny Day + Chlorophyll helps to patch up the speed issue though.
Typing: Gets access to strong mid to late game STABs and good resists, though its Poison typing can reveal some annoying weaknesses later in the game.
Movepool: Early game Oddish will be reliant on Bullet Seed and powder moves such as Poisonpowder, Stun Spore, and Sleep Powder for a substantial portion of the game. After acquiring Surf, more TMs such as Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Sunny Day, and Solarbeam become available. Not having any worthwhile non-STAB moves means Vileplume will struggle to beat Poison- and Steel-types.
Major Battles: Early-game Oddish will usually be harassing tough opponents with powder moves but generally won't be doing a lot of damage, meaning it has mediocre to outright bad matchups against nearly all the pre-Surf Gym Leaders. Vileplume is obtainable before fighting Winona as the Leaf Stone as well as the Sunny Day and Solarbeam TMs are in rather close proximity to each other around Fortree City, though Vileplume is only expected to beat Winona's Pelipper. Vileplume solos Sidney with ease, whereas SunnyBeam is especially useful in allowing Vileplume to heavily threaten Tate&Liza, Juan, Wallace, and to an extent Glacia, while providing solid damage against neutral targets such as Dusclops, Flygon, and Aggron. Vileplume's weaknesses against Psychic can be a nuisance when taking on Tate&Liza and Phoebe, and can only resort to powder moves against the likes of Drake's Altaria and Salamence, and Steven's Skarmory and Metagross.
Additional Comments: Oddish is also much more commonly available on Route 119 post-Surf, with the advantage of requiring less babying to reach the coveted Sunny Beam and Solarbeam TMs. One could even go after the high-leveled Glooms in Area 3 of the Safari Zone, where the SolarBeam TM is conveniently located.


bellossom.png

Name: Oddish (Bellossom)
Availability: Route 110, 10%, Level 13
Stats: Good Special Attack and has great general bulk, but is slow. Sunny Day + Chlorophyll patches up the latter issue though.
Typing: Has some of the better Grass-type attacking options in the game, but that is all it really has in terms of attacking. It does have good resistances and the bulk to better shrug off non-STAB super effective attacks.
Movepool: Early game Oddish will be reliant on Bullet Seed and powder moves such as Poisonpowder, Stun Spore, and Sleep Powder for a substantial portion of the game. After acquiring Surf, the Sunny Day and Solarbeam TMs are mandatory for Bellossom, and having the option of being tutored Magical Leaf is a decent STAB alternative compared to the low PP Giga Drain. Unfortunately, Bellossom will be primarily reliant on powder moves to deal with anything that resists its lone STAB attacks.
Major Battles: Early-game Oddish will usually be harassing tough opponents with powder moves but generally won't be doing a lot of damage, meaning it has mediocre to outright bad matchups against nearly all the pre-Surf Gym Leaders. While the Sunny Day and Solarbeam TMs are pretty nearby to each other after Fortree City, the Sun Stone is only available at Mossdeep City. SunnyBeam allows Bellossom to heavily threaten Tate&Liza, Juan, Wallace, and to an extent Glacia, while providing solid damage against neutral targets such as Dusclops, Flygon, and Aggron. Bellossom can only respond with powder moves against any opponent that resists Grass.
Additional Comments: Oddish is also much more commonly available on Route 119 post-Surf, with the advantage of requiring less babying to reach the necessary Sunny Beam and Solarbeam TMs. One could even go after the high-leveled Glooms in Area 3 of the Safari Zone, where the SolarBeam TM is conveniently located.
 
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Punchshroom said:
If you ask me, if there's a "S-" Rank, Zangoose and Ralts could fit that criteria. As of now, one certainly has the argument that they're the best or/and most consistent of the A Ranks, with probably the only things holding them back being that Ralts only starts taking off early-mid game while Zangoose is unavailable until then too.
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I would argue that from my experiences Ralts starts taking off right around the same time as Kadabra while being solid before, it was level 16 when it soloed Brawly for me, and Ralts requires significantly less investment than Abra. I don't think there's any reasonable argument to have Gardevoir and Alakazam be in different tiers.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
I would argue that from my experiences Ralts starts taking off right around the same time as Kadabra while being solid before, it was level 16 when it soloed Brawly for me, and Ralts requires significantly less investment than Abra. I don't think there's any reasonable argument to have Gardevoir and Alakazam be in different tiers.
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Ralts is good, but I don't think it's on the same tier as Alakazam. From before gym 2 to around gym 6, Alakazam's special attack is 70 entire points higher than Kirlia's. While Kirlia is calm mind sweeping its opponents, Alakazam is instantly vaporizing them. Kirlia can evolve into Gardevoir, but its special attack, speed, and leveling rate remain worse than Alakazam's for the entire game.
 
sumwun said:
Yes, but you never explained why Gardevoir and Alakazam should be in the same tier despite the fact that Alakazam evolves a lot earlier than Gardevoir does.
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I posted an entire fucking page of content showing why Gardevoir is S tier it's virtually indistinguishable from Zam stop make stupid fucking posts Jesus Christ
 
Does Kirlia really get as many unboosted OHKOs and 2HKOs as Alakazam does? I read your posts again and still didn't see an answer to this question.
 
sumwun said:
Does Kirlia really get as many unboosted OHKOs and 2HKOs as Alakazam does? I read your posts again and still didn't see an answer to this question.
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In which contexts are you referring to? Against wild/trainer Pokemon they are reasonably comparable, up to level 26 or so there's not much that's bulky enough not to die to Psychic. Post-norman you'll miss the occasional ohko on something that's particularly bulky for that very short period of time before you evolve. Against the gym leaders I cannot specifically say as I chose the set up route. It's certainly plausible that Kirlia could OHKO the first Voltorb as Alakazam would without set up, and I suspect neither would OHKO the manectric. Against Flannery I suspect the only material difference would be Alakazam 2HKOing Torkoal with Kirlia likely 3HKOing.

Im not sure why you're fixating on this. Alakazam is better than Kirlia, no shit. Kadabra and Kirlia are extremely comparable. Alakazam and Gardevoir are extremely comparable, and I consider Gardevoir superior as the physical bulk is very significant (i.e. living Flygon's Earthquake). And Ralts is notably better than Abra. A is approximately equal to B.
 
Gardevoir also possesses a notably better movepool. Getting Calm Mind and Psychic significantly earlier than Alakazam which helps Kirlia keep up with Alakazam in terms of power, and by the time you do evolve into Gardevoir it will likely be better than Alakazam would be for a decent portion of the game, if not the entire remainder of the game. I also think Gardevoir getting Tbolt is very important as it lets you sweep several late game threats and score easier KO's than Shock Wave would. I have no opinion on what tier Ralts should be, or if its even better than Alakazam at any point as I haven't used either enough to justifiably rank them. I just wanted to add this.
 
Update 3

VS May (Battle 3)

Electrike (Level 20): OHKOs Wingull and 2HKOs Slugma. If you fight Grovyle, you have to use Thunder Wave and a lot of super potions. If you don't, you'll be outsped and be out damaged (Tackle 6/7HKOs, while grovyle's attacks are 4/5HKOs).
Summary: Fantastic. Destroy's May's first 2 mons, and can slowly take out Grovlyle. A-tier, if not S-teir matchup.

Marshtomp (Level 21): 3HKOs Wingull with tackle (be careful of Growl and Supersonic, but wing attack 8HKOs), and OHKOs Slugma with Mud Shot. Avoid Grovyle for obvious reasons.
Summary: Beats the 1st 2 mons easily, but use something else for Grovyle. A/B-Teir

Vigoroth (Level 20): 2HKOs May's entire team with cut, and easily able to kale 1 hit from each mon. Just be careful of Growl, Supersonic, and a burn from Flame Body/Ember.
Summary: S-Teir

Kirlia (Level 20): 2HKOs Wingull and Slugma with Confusion, and lives at least 1 hit from each move. Stay away from Grovyle though, as Confusion only 4HKOs, and the lizard is faster and has Prsuit and Fury Cutter.
Summary: See Marshtomp's summary.

VS Watson

Electrike (Level 23): Spark 4HKOs Voltorb, But it will more than likely go for self Destruct and KO you. However, if you beat it without it blowing up, You can 3hko Electrike with Spark. Leave Mszagneton and Manectric to something else, since Spark is approximately a 8HKO (Take is even worse, and does about half the damage os Spark on both mons).
Summary: Ehh. Can beat the first 2 mons if Voltorb doesn't blow up, but Electrike can barely dent Magneton and Manetric.

Marshtomp: (Level 24): OHKOs Voltorb, Electrike, Magneton, and 2HKOs Manetric with Mud Shot. Additionally, no attacks really do any damage to Marshtomp, except for a howl-boosted quick attack from Manectric (which does about 15 HP fo damage, and Self-destruct (Which has a good chance to 2HKO).
Summary: LOL, S-Tier. The pokemon battle equivalent of the 2018 NFC championship game.

Vigoroth (Level 23): 2HKOs Voltorb and Manetric with Cut. Avoid Magneton and Manectric, since Cut/Rock Smash are 12/10 and 6/8HKOs for Magneton, and Cut 5HKOs Manectric. To make matters worse, Both mons 2HKO Vigoroth with Shock Wave.
Summary: Mediocre. Has no trouble Vs the 1st 2 mons, but looses to the last 2 mons. C to B-Tier

Kirlia (Level 23): If you spam Calm Mind against the Voltorb, you can sweep the gym, 2HKOing Voltorb and Electrike at +3, 4HKOing Magneton, (Kirlia only fear Sonic booms, which also 4HKOs), and 2HKOing Manectric (who 4HKOs with quick attack). Spam potions against the last 2 and you'll be fine. just be cautious about Voltorb's Self-Destruct.
Summary: If you can get to +3 Before Voltorb booms, you can sweep this gym. B or A-Teir.

Team:
Marshtomp: Level 25 / Impish nature
Kirlia: Level 24 / Timid Nature
Vigoroth: Level 23 / Timid nature
Electrike: Level 23 / Serious Nature
 
So I went ahead and playthroughed with Ralts and...it's even better than I remembered it.

For starters, the babying period to learn Confusion is basically nothing; Petalburg Woods offers such a heap of experience, especially the cocoons and Slakoth, that you only need to switch train an average of 10-12 times to reach level 6. Sure, Ralts is basically relegated to KOing one of Roxanne's Geodudes and doesn't have the easiest time solo'ing Brawly (though I've found tossing in the occasional Growl can significantly slow Brawly down if he doesn't start clicking Bulk Up, and if he does start spamming it that's your cue to Confusion him). However, Calm Mind Kirlia becomes an absolute gym-killing force. superstrike66 more or less covered its Emerald Wattson matchup (RS Wattson is arguably even easier since his lead Magnemite is less of an immediate threat), and Flannery's Slugmas are super easy setup bait too, though the Emerald version proves to be the slightly more annoying variant yet again since she doesn't lead with Slugma (her lead Numel has Magnitude which makes it riskier to set up on).

You should get Gardevoir by the time you fight Norman, especially after all the experience it should get for sweeping Flannery, and while an X Defend, an X Speed, and a couple of healing items are required, Gardevoir should have a shot at sweeping Norman as well because early Calm Mind is busted. In fact at this point, Gardevoir can pretty much just win the game on its own, especially with boosted Psychic & Thunderbolt, and the only real caveats it has are that it can't easily (but not impossibly) set up on Sidney, Phoebe, and Steven's lead Pokemon, but it absolutely can set up on something else they have, namely Shiftry/Cacturne, Sableye (needs Reflect), and pretty much any of Steven's mons bar Metagross. Of course, Emerald Gardevoir has a field day against Wallace, which more than makes up for the more annoying Wattson & Flannery fights.

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So here are the overall comparisons Gardevoir has with Alakazam:

Bulk: I know some of you have rated Raichu's physical bulk to be substantially lower compared to the other frail, fast Electrics. With that comparison, Gardevoir's bulk, both physical and especially special, is leagues ahead of Alakazam's, and that matters a lot when it comes to bulky boosting since it would require less turns to get the comfortable sweep and thus become more efficient. The greater physical bulk is especially notable when you start factoring in X Defends/Reflects into the equation, letting Gardevoir take blows like Claydol EQ, Sableye Shadow Ball, unSTAB Double-Edges/Hyper Beams and the like way better than Alakazam can hope to; for instance, Reflect Alakazam will pretty much still always get 2HKOed by Sableye's Shadow Ball while Reflect Gardevoir at least has a chance to survive the 2HKO and Hyper Potion spam to build up ~3 Calm Minds & start sweeping. Alakazam's fragility makes it so that it doesn't really manage to utilize Calm Mind quite as efficiently in the final battles where the boosting would really help/matter.

Power: Sure, Kadabra/Alakazam are far ahead of Kirlia in terms of immediate strength, but Kirlia also gets both Calm Mind and Psychic much earlier than either of them, which helps to significantly bridge the gap in power, especially in boss matchups where boosting is a more effective method of sweeping than simply throwing out strong hits. Gardevoir is already just barely behind Alakazam in terms of Psychic damage, but Gardevoir also has the advantage in Thunderbolt coverage, which is huge in allowing Gardevoir to both take out Water-typed bosses with fewer Calm Minds, as well as allow Gardevoir to hit Psychic-resistant targets like Sableye and Metagross much better.

Speed: The Speed gap is only really noticeable between the Kadabra/Alakazam and Kirlia stages, but once Kirlia evolves, it's sufficiently fast and most anything that would outspeed Gardevoir can be overpowered or simply outbulked. Gardevoir can also mitigate the issue of more dangerous faster foes (Sharpedo, Flygon, Salamence) with prior setup against their fodder teammates.

Tl;dr: Alakazam may boast untouchable power and speed for most of the game since such early on, but Kirlia becomes a strong force in its own right and Gardevoir, imo, rises even above Alakazam as a sweeper as it pretty much never becomes a liability in any matchup. Not to mention that Ralts doesn't warrant such penalization for its meh starting period when Abra has its own babying period as well. Ralts deserves S.
 
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Punchshroom said:
So I went ahead and playthroughed with Ralts and...it's even better than I remembered it.

For starters, the babying period to learn Confusion is basically nothing; Petalburg Woods offers such a heap of experience, especially the cocoons and Slakoth, that you only need to switch train an average of 10-12 times to reach level 6. Sure, Ralts is basically relegated to KOing one of Roxanne's Geodudes and doesn't have the easiest time solo'ing Brawly (though I've found tossing in the occasional Growl can significantly slow Brawly down if he doesn't start clicking Bulk Up, and if he does start spamming it that's your cue to Confusion him). However, Calm Mind Kirlia becomes an absolute gym-killing force. superstrike66 more or less covered its Emerald Wattson matchup (RS Wattson is arguably even easier since his lead Magnemite is less of an immediate threat), and Flannery's Slugmas are super easy setup bait too, though the Emerald version proves to be the slightly more annoying variant yet again since she doesn't lead with Slugma (her lead Numel has Magnitude which makes it riskier to set up on).

You should get Gardevoir by the time you fight Norman, especially after all the experience it should get for sweeping Flannery, and while an X Defend, an X Speed, and a couple of healing items are required, Gardevoir should have a shot at sweeping Norman as well because early Calm Mind is busted. In fact at this point, Gardevoir can pretty much just win the game on its own, especially with boosted Psychic & Thunderbolt, and the only real caveats it has are that it can't easily (but not impossibly) set up on Sidney, Phoebe, and Steven's lead Pokemon, but it absolutely can set up on something else they have, namely Shiftry/Cacturne, Sableye (needs Reflect), and pretty much any of Steven's mons bar Metagross. Of course, Emerald Gardevoir has a field day against Wattson, which more than makes up for the more annoying Wattson & Flannery fights.

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So here are the overall comparisons Gardevoir has with Alakazam:

Bulk: I know some of you have rated Raichu's physical bulk to be substantially lower compared to the other frail, fast Electrics. With that comparison, Gardevoir's bulk, both physical and especially special, is leagues ahead of Alakazam's, and that matters a lot when it comes to bulky boosting since it would require less turns to get the comfortable sweep and thus become more efficient. The greater physical bulk is especially notable when you start factoring in X Defends/Reflects into the equation, letting Gardevoir take blows like Claydol EQ, Sableye Shadow Ball, unSTAB Double-Edges/Hyper Beams and the like way better than Alakazam can hope to; for instance, Reflect Alakazam will pretty much still always get 2HKOed by Sableye's Shadow Ball while Reflect Gardevoir at least has a chance to survive the 2HKO and Hyper Potion spam to build up ~3 Calm Minds & start sweeping. Alakazam's fragility makes it so that it doesn't really manage to utilize Calm Mind quite as efficiently in the final battles where the boosting would really help/matter.

Power: Sure, Kadabra/Alakazam are far ahead of Kirlia in terms of immediate strength, but Kirlia also gets both Calm Mind and Psychic much earlier than either of them, which helps to significantly bridge the gap in power, especially in boss matchups where boosting is a more effective method of sweeping than simply throwing out strong hits. Gardevoir is already just barely behind Alakazam in terms of Psychic damage, but Gardevoir also has the advantage in Thunderbolt coverage, which is huge in allowing Gardevoir to both take out Water-typed bosses with fewer Calm Minds, as well as allow Gardevoir to hit Psychic-resistant targets like Sableye and Metagross much better.

Speed: The Speed gap is only really noticeable between the Kadabra/Alakazam and Kirlia stages, but once Kirlia evolves, it's sufficiently fast and most anything that would outspeed Gardevoir can be overpowered or simply outbulked. Gardevoir can also mitigate the issue of more dangerous faster foes (Sharpedo, Flygon, Salamence) with prior setup against their fodder teammates.

Tl;dr: Alakazam may boast untouchable power and speed for most of the game since such early on, but Kirlia becomes a strong force in its own right and Gardevoir, imo, rises even above Alakazam as a sweeper as it pretty much never becomes a liability in any matchup. Not to mention that Ralts doesn't warrant such penalization for its meh starting period when Abra has its own babying period as well. Ralts deserves S.
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Texas Cloverleaf said:
Literally everything I've done for this run is on this page so I'll let you draw your own conclusions, here are mine:

First:
Blaziken lv 49, Mild, Blaze
161 / 147 / 72 / 146 / 81 / 105
Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Bulk Up

Gardevoir lv 49, Modest, Synchronize
146 / 72 / 89 / 157 / 124 / 96
Psychic, Thunderbolt, Calm Mind, Double Team

Pelipper lv 47, Modest, Keen Eye
122 / 56 / 115 / 110 / 88 / 86
Surf, Ice Beam, Fly, Protect

Slaking lv 47, Quiet, Truant
215 / 179 / 115 / 122 / 71 / 110
Return, Shadow Ball, Return, Hyper Beam

Magneton lv 47, Naive, Sturdy
109 / 80 / 109 / 132 / 73 / 91
Thunderbolt, HP Water, Hyper Beam, Thunder Wave

Cradily lv 47, Hasty, Suction Cups
158 / 93 / 99 / 90 / 117 / 62
Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Secret Power

Nominations:

Blaziken: drop to A tier OR have Breloom rise to S

- Bad matchups against Roxanne unless you overlevel, Brawly, Tate and Liza, and Wallace, okay matchups vs Winona and Drake. The remainder of its matchups are an even split between A and S performances. It just isn't dominating, its best performances aren't numerous to counteract its multiple weak performances. To quote Merritt from when I nominated Breloom before, "Everything in A rank is an outstanding Pokemon with few flaws and while Breloom is arguably the best among the A ranks (with notable competition from Rayquaza and Zangoose), it doesn't quite reach the level of dominance that would be expected from the S rank Pokemon." This statement directly applies to Blaziken, it simply isn't a dominating force in the ways of Swampert or Gardevoir. In contrast, Breloom does have a dominating early and mid-game performance to pair with a very strong late-game (capable of sweeping 4/5 E4 members with an X Speed). Having now run both it's very clear to me that Breloom is the definitively better Pokemon.


Gardevoir: rise to S tier

- I've gone over the reasons for this a couple times, but to reiterate: Gardevoir is a dominating force from the moment it evolves and never slows down, capable of sweeping every single enemy in the game. Kirlia is weaker that Gardevoir but still very powerful, sweeping both Wattson and Flannery, only suffering during the few levels before evolution when it must fight Norman. Ralts is the traditional point of criticism and said criticisms are vastly overblown. You must switch grind for two levels to acquire Confusion but once you do Ralts is self-sufficient, quickly becoming powerful; from level 13 you are capable of soloing Roxanne and cleanly defeat Brawly at level 16. At every stage of the game Gardevoir is a superb combatant and is one of the most dominant Pokemon available. In my point of view it is clearly at least equal to Alakazam, and in my perspective it surpasses it as the physical bulk is more meaningful than the speed. I believe this is the second best Pokemon for a playthrough, behind only Swampert.
- Key notes for write up: Double Team is something I've long overlooked but it turns out to be a significantly powerful option, directly empowering sweeps against Roxanne, Wattson, Sidney, and Drake.


Pelipper: drop to C tier

- Not a ton to say about this, it's just not strong or bulky enough to deserve to be B tier. It's Flying STAB is meaningless offensively so it plays like a Water type which is valuable enough, but doesn't have the bulk or strength or movepool to match other Water type options. It's major matchups are similarly a mixed bag more representative of C than B. It can pretty much never sweep any major fight and is best served as a targeted attacker, a job it performs adequately. A reasonable supporting option, but not one that should be used as a primary choice on any team.


Slaking: rise to C tier at minimum, strong argument for B tier.

- So here's the thing. Truant fucking suuuuuuuucks. Slakoth is really bad. 4% encounter rate sucks. But here's the other thing. Vigoroth and Slaking are ridiculously, insanely dominant. Vigoroth is one of the top 3 middle-game Pokemon available (alongside Marshtomp and Hariyama) and Slaking is quite possibly among the top 3 options available itself as the matchups I've walked through evidence. Even in spite of Truant, Slaking was still consistently able to sweep through any and all opponents courtesy of its literal cover legendary stats. Strong enough to OHKO almost anything in the game and bulky enough to set up or burn Truant turns, every single matchup Slaking encountered was graded as an A or S tier performance. Vigoroth itself had two S tier and one B tier showing to go with it. The negatives in Truant and Slakoth are horrible and completely necessary as otherwise it would literally break the game. It almost does this anyway.
- Key notes for write up: Bulk Up is the key to unleashing Vigoroth terror as well as empowering Slaking sweeps in otherwise poor matchups, Scratch should lead to Fury Swipes, to Secret Power, to Return.


Magneton: stay in B

- I have literally nothing to say about this, it does what it says on the box. Thought it maybe could have made a case for A, but it cannot.


Cradily: stay in E or drop to F

You can make it do things if you want it to and I guess it should be E for that reason, I really didn't want to. You could stick it in F and no one would care to be honest.
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Aww look at you two, agreeing on something!

UPDATE 3(watso and Flan Cake)

Honestly, I don't like Loudred. He's OK at dealing with weak things like Shroomo and Zubat, but against actual threats like Doduo and Roselia, his lack of bulk just makes me want to cry. I want so badly to drop this to F Tier, but Norman and Winnoa are probably good enough for E Tier.

But Gym Leaders come first, and Wattson is next!

Kirlia(Level 23): Spamming CM against the Voltorb is the best way to lead in this fight, as Spark will do nothing (20% unboosted) with more CM boosts and it very rarely goes for Self-Destruct(only 1 run had a boom). At +6, Confusion OHKO's Electrike and Voltorb(ooh wee), 2HKO's Magneton and barely misses a OHKO on Manectric, but thankfully the Sitrus keeps it from using a Super Potion.
Results: Easiest +6 of this run as long as Voltorb doesn't boom. S Tier.

Marshtomp(Level 23): M U D S H O T
Results: a massacre

Vigoroth(Level 22): Voltorb boom T1 and does 1/3 of health lol. Electrike has a tiny problem where it can't do enough damage to stop a set up with BU and Slack off, and if it derps with QA Encore punishes it so bad. At +6 Fury Swipes kills Electrike at 2 hits, Magneton at 8 hits and Manectric at 4. Be careful though, as Magneton and Manectric can 2HKO with Shock Wave.
Results: GG EZ CL"A"P Tier.

Loudred(Level 23): You can beat Voltorb and Electrike. That's it. Rock Smash can't stop a 2HKO from Magneton and Manectric just crushes you with SW+QA!
Results: Not that good honestly. E Tier if only because it cleaned 1/2 of a team

N/A: Beautifly

Current team
Marshtomp, Naughty Lvl 24 68/51/45/39/37/36
Loudred, Hasty Lvl 23 75/41/25/43/30/36
Beautifly, Lonely Lvl 22 62/47/30/49/33/36
Kirlia, Modest Lvl 23 53/22/26/40/32/36
Vigoroth, Naughty Lvl 22 65/45/44/31/28/49
 
unsure how to make a post in here but

i want to nominate koffing to C-rank. this is probably not a mon we think a lot about. but i used him and i actually had nonzero success with him, as in i was pleasantly surprised. you pick him up at firey path and you have to baby him a little until sludge, but after he picks up that you can get some p easy kos after that. if you dont have anywhere else to put shock wave he can use it too, which i recommend. he's more of a route clearer during gyms 4 and 5, cant do much against the bulkier neutral types in those fights. after the turn he kicks into high gear. give him thunderbolt and sludge bomb and if you're rich -- i was -- flamethrower and let him cook against flying types, water types, neutral types, and so on. v good against winona obviously, good mus against trop pelipper skarm etc. good against the Teams aswell. obv not great against the twins but good against the water gym, give it shadow ball and so on for the elite 4. idk it was surprisingly powerful
 
Shrug said:
unsure how to make a post in here but

i want to nominate koffing to C-rank. this is probably not a mon we think a lot about. but i used him and i actually had nonzero success with him, as in i was pleasantly surprised. you pick him up at firey path and you have to baby him a little until sludge, but after he picks up that you can get some p easy kos after that. if you dont have anywhere else to put shock wave he can use it too, which i recommend. he's more of a route clearer during gyms 4 and 5, cant do much against the bulkier neutral types in those fights. after the turn he kicks into high gear. give him thunderbolt and sludge bomb and if you're rich -- i was -- flamethrower and let him cook against flying types, water types, neutral types, and so on. v good against winona obviously, good mus against trop pelipper skarm etc. good against the Teams aswell. obv not great against the twins but good against the water gym, give it shadow ball and so on for the elite 4. idk it was surprisingly powerful
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This is fine for making a nomination.

I don't believe Koffing deserves to rise to C rank. It's got an incredibly unpleasant babying period early before Sludge, a good 6 or so levels, before it does pick up a little like you said. However, Koffing itself just flat out doesn't have the stats to compete against the gym leaders. Getting to Weezing before Winona is a not insignificant investment and is important for Koffing to actually find particular success vs Winona. The Tate&Liza matchup is pretty awful due to Weezing's special bulk and weakness, and Juan's not actually all that amazing from my experience with both Wishcash and Kingdra being lackluster at best for Weezing.

The Elite 4 is a weird mix of good and bad for Weezing. Sidney is overall fine for Weezing but Phoebe is going to need item support, particularly against her Sableye and second Banette. Glacia and Drake are also not great matchups for Weezing, being slugfests where Weezing is leaning hard on items. Both Steven and Wallace have a tendency to just flat out overpower Weezing due to a higher level and a poor matchup against a lot of the team - Wallace because he hits hard on Weezing's mediocre special bulk and Steven because so much of his team has an advantage over Weezing.

Overall Weezing just holds up not great against lategame, the somewhat low speed is particularly unhelpful since it leads to Weezing taking a lot of hits. Similarly, its attacking stats definitely start holding it back against neutral targets once you start making that transition from midgame to endgame. Of course Weezing's also fairly TM intensive, taking two rather useful single obtainable TMs in Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball.

D rank does not mean a Pokemon is bad, it means the Pokemon is overall average for an efficient run. Koffing, who needs some babying and overall only has a mix of good matchups and bad but no completely fantastic ones, fits in well in the lower half of the rest of the D rank Pokemon and I'd say is decidedly worse than all of the C rank Pokemon.
 
Update 4

Caught Skarmory on route 113

VS Flannery

Manetric (Level 27): 2HKOs Slugma with Spark, and Numel is 4HKOed by tackle, while overheat just 2HKOs without SPA drops. Avoid everyting else, since Manetric is OHKOed Overheat, while Torkoal is 3HKOed by Spark, and Camerupt is 10/12HKOed by tackle.
Summary: Bad. It easily beats Slugma, and can beat Numel if you use lots of potions, but the other 2 are out of reach. E-tier

Skarmory (Level 27): LOL, no

Vigoroth (Level 27): 2HKOs Numel and Slugma with Strength, while Overheat does just over 50% to Vigoroth. Camerupt is 3HKOed by Strength, and the sloth can tank an Overheat, alibeit barely. So if you fight Camerupt, use Slack Off every other turn. Avoid Torkoal, since Strength 5HKOs, while Overheat Cooks you alive.
Summary: Easily beats the 1st 2 mons, while Camerupt requires slack off to be used. Avoid Torkoal. A/B-Teir

Kirlia (Level 27): At +2, Psychic OHKOs Numel and Slugma, and 2HKOs Camerupt and Torkoal. Be prepared to use potions, as at +2 Spd, Overheat from Torkoal and Camerupt 2HKO, and without CM boosts, Numel's Overheat 2HKOs as well.
Summary: Exelent. Requires potions to beat 3 of the mons, however. A-Teir.

Marshtomp (Level 28): OHKOs Slugma and Numel with Mud Shot, 2HKOs Camerupt with Water Gun/Mud Shot, and 3HKOs Torkoal with Mud Shot. Marshtomp can tank any of Camerupt and Torkoal's attacks, with their most powerful attack, overheat, 2HKOing the mud fish. Also, Be careful of Attract from the last 2 mons.
Summary: S-Tier, but Attract is a pain to deal with.

Team:
Marshtomp: Level 29/ Impish nature
Kirlia: Level 27/ Timid Nature
Vigoroth: Level 27/ Timid nature
Manetric: Level 27/ Serious Nature
Skarmory: Level 27/ Rash Nature
 
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Because I've played emerald dozens of times and it's still the best Pokemon game ever made I turn to it when I get bored at work. May as well put some effort into it while I'm at it! Gonna do a half test half fun run with Mudkip, Zubat, Makuhita, Torkoal, Girafarig, and Snorunt
 
Wattson:
- Golbat lv 24, Wing Attack / Steel Wing / Bite / Astonish
- Hariyama lv 25, Arm Thrust / Vital Throw / Tackle / Bulk Up
- Marshtomp lv 26, Mud Shot / Water Gun / Tackle / Bide

Golbat: Bite beats Voltorb reasonably comfortably on average as a 3hKO, you aren't 2HKOed and flinch procs outweight possible Spark paralysis procs. Bite can 2HKO Electrike as well, but Static makes the follow up matchup much tenuous. Magneton and Manectric are hard passes. D seems reasonable, relative to expectation.

Hariyama: Bulk Up, sweep etc. Tempted to push it down to A because paralysis is actually really annoying when you're relying on Vital Throw, but I tanked enough hits despite multiple paras that S is accurate.

Marshtomp: Marshtomp. S.


Flannery:
- Torkoal lv 28, Body Slam / Ember / Curse / Protect
- Hariyama lv 29, Vital Throw / Strength / Dig / Bulk Up
- Marshtomp lv 29, Mud Shot / Water Gun / Tackle / Bide
- Golbat lv 29, Wing Attack / Steel Wing / Bite / Confuse Ray

Torkoal: Curse, Curse, sweep. A tier because there's a lot of bullshittery you can run into between Attracty and Poison, enemy Torkoal's Overheat can kill you from roughly 60% so Attract shenanigans are bullshit.

Hariyama: Bulk Up, sweep with Dig or Vital Throw. You tank an Overheat or two. S tier.

Marshtomp: Marshtomp. S tier.

Golbat: Beat Numel and Slugma clean, can beat Camerupt with a combo of Confuse Ray / Bite / Wing Attack depending on how often its able to hit you to get into Overheat range, takes four turns to take it down. Torkoal is a loss, B seems good.


Norman:
- Everyone level 30, Torkoal gets Flamethrower over Ember

Hariyama: Not really any good set up opportunities between Psybeam/Teeter Dance Spinda, Slash Vigoroth, and Belly Drum Linoone, but one Bulk Up is sufficient to sweep through anyway, likely with one Potion aiding. S tier regardless.

Torkoal: Torkoal however doesn't give too much of a shit about either Psybeam or Teeter Dance so you can reliably get between +3 and +5, use a Potion, and sweep through with Body Slam. S tier.

Marshtomp: Marshtomp. B tier.

Golbat: Spinda a bitch but you can beat the not Slakings with some heal support. D tier.
 
"Power: Sure, Kadabra/Alakazam are far ahead of Kirlia in terms of immediate strength, but Kirlia also gets both Calm Mind and Psychic much earlier than either of them, which helps to significantly bridge the gap in power, especially in boss matchups where boosting is a more effective method of sweeping than simply throwing out strong hits."

Alakazam's unboosted Psybeam is almost as strong as a +1 Psychic from Kirlia is on equal level, but even accounting for the swap training you need to do to get Abra to Kadabra(and Alakazam), it will run past Kirlia in terms of level fairly fast thanks to the nature of the Medium Slow curve. Once it is ahead, it will stay ahead, as well.

By the time you get the Gardevoir evolution, Alakazam should be only a level or two at most away from Psychic(L36).

"Gardevoir is already just barely behind Alakazam in terms of Psychic damage,"

Not with that experience curve- Zam is punching with much more force. In fact, some of the the claims about Gardevoir's bulk vs Alakazam's look fairly hollow as well once the experience curve is accounted for. Gardevoir is bulkier, but not by as much of a margin as the immediate numbers may seem to imply.

but Gardevoir also has the advantage in Thunderbolt coverage, which is huge in allowing Gardevoir to both take out Water-typed bosses with fewer Calm Minds, as well as allow Gardevoir to hit Psychic-resistant targets like Sableye and Metagross much better.

I have no issues with this statement though.
 
RWB if your only argument here is that Gardevoir's experience curve makes it "supposedly" unable to keep up with Alakazam, this is a rather moot point as it still shouldn't hold Gardevoir back from S Rank performance on its own merit (it's like saying not being on Zam's level somehow mades Garde not as worthy, and I'm willing to debate that Garde is a far better long-run Pokémon).

I can also assure you that the bulk difference between the two has been made very apparent numerous times (primarily in boss sweeps, and I've already specified in good detail what most of these attacks are) in my playthroughs, even if Alakazam were to be 2 levels higher.
 
Punchshroom said:
RWB if your only argument here is that Gardevoir's experience curve makes it "supposedly" unable to keep up with Alakazam, this is a rather moot point as it still shouldn't hold Gardevoir back from S Rank performance on its own merit (it's like saying not being on Zam's level somehow mades Garde not as worthy, and I'm willing to debate that Garde is a far better long-run Pokémon).
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily disagree with you on it not holding Gardevoir back, I'm just saying there is a notable difference between the two in terms of sheer hitting power due to the curve.

Both could very well be S.

I'm willing to debate that Garde is a far better long-run Pokémon

That would be a fun discussion to have, since it mostly comes down to just how valuable Electric Coverage is.

Punchshroom said:
"supposedly" unable to keep up with Alakazam"
Click to expand...

If you catch an Abra at Level 8, it needs a total of 2094 exp to get to Alakazam(though you can catch one on a lower floor at level 10). That's less experience than Ralts needs to get just to go from level 17 to 18. If we assume Ralts actually fights all it's battles alone while Abra is swaptraining, it's still needs less battles than Ralts need to get from 17 to 19.
Alakazam gets from level 16 to level 21(and Psybeam) with only 3923 Exp, only 900 more experience it takes for Ralts to get from level 19 to 21(Calm Mind).

If we assume Ralts is level 17 when we catch Abra, which is highly questionable at best, Alakazam is picking up Psybeam at roughly the same time Kirlia is getting Calm Mind(and Psybeam Zam>Confusion Calm Mind Kirlia). From Calm Mind to Psychic for Kirlia, there is 10394 exp. That is enough to bring level 20 Alakazam all the way to 27(and a half). Alakazam is then Level 32 by the the time Kirlia evolves. Zam picks up Psychic while Gardevoir is at 33, and by the Time Zam reaches 40, Gardevoir is at 36. When Zam is Level 46, Gardevoir is 41. At this point, the level gap stops growing(due to the slowdown for the Medium Slow curve), for the most part, and stays relatively stagnant.

Shortly put, even if we assume a very beneficial scenario for Gardevoir experience-wise, Zam is gonna outlevel it significantly by the time it reaches Level 40. If Ralts is not 9 full levels ahead before the catch, Zam catches up much faster because Ralts levels are huge in terms of experience. In fact, if Ralts is Level 15 when you catch Abra, Zam is at the same level by the time Kirlia evolves and hits it's 4-5 level advantage earlier.

Zam is gonna outlevel Gardevoir, there's no "supposedly" to it. Medium Slow is stupidly fast in terms of leveling for the first half of the game(I think Exp Curves in general are considered to a far too small extent in general, but that's for a different discussion).

Punchshroom said:
I can also assure you that the bulk difference between the two has been made very apparent numerous times (primarily in boss sweeps, and I've already specified in good detail what most of these attacks are) in my playthroughs, even if Alakazam were to be 2 levels higher.
Click to expand...

It's 4-5 levels, not 2.

Level 40 Zam real defenses(assuming no IVs and EVs, for simplicity's sake):
HP 94
Def 41
SpD 73

Level 36 Voir real defenses(assuming no IVs and EVs, for simplicity's sake):
HP 94
Def 51
SpD 87

It's clearly in Gardevoir's favor and I never said it weren't. I said(or rather, implied) it wasn't as strong a lead as it seems, especially since Zam is faster and has Calm Mind himself now.

My issue was mainly the claim that Gardevoir's Psychic hits almost as hard, and with 113 SpA vs 95 SpA at those same levels, that's just not the case at all.

Essentially, argue the value of Gardevoir's actual benefits over Zam, do not compare their sheer hitting power with Psychic, because that's the one field where it actually gets flattened at every point in the game.
 
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RWB said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on it not holding Gardevoir back, I'm just saying there is a notable difference between the two in terms of sheer hitting power due to the curve.



If you catch an Abra at Level 8, it needs a total of 2094 exp to get to Alakazam(though you can catch one on a lower floor at level 10). That's less experience than Ralts needs to get just to go from level 17 to 18. If we assume Ralts actually fights all it's battles alone while Abra is swaptraining, it's still needs less battles than Ralts need to get from 17 to 19.
Alakazam gets from level 16 to level 21(and Psybeam) with only 3923 Exp, only 900 more experience it takes for Ralts to get from level 19 to 21(Calm Mind).

If we assume Ralts is level 17 when we catch Abra, which is highly questionable at best, Alakazam is picking up Psybeam at roughly the same time Kirlia is getting Calm Mind(and Psybeam Zam>Confusion Calm Mind Kirlia). From Calm Mind to Psychic for Kirlia, there is 10394 exp. That is enough to bring level 20 Alakazam all the way to 27(and a half). Alakazam is then Level 32 by the the time Kirlia evolves. Zam picks up Psychic while Gardevoir is at 33, and by the Time Zam reaches 40, Gardevoir is at 36. When Zam is Level 46, Gardevoir is 41. At this point, the level gap stops growing(due to the slowdown for the Medium Slow curve), for the most part, and stays relatively stagnant.

Shortly put, even if we assume a very beneficial scenario for Gardevoir experience-wise, Zam is gonna outlevel it significantly by the time it reaches Level 40. If Ralts is not 9 full levels ahead before the catch, Zam catches up much faster because Ralts levels are huge in terms of experience. In fact, if Ralts is Level 15 when you catch Abra, Zam is at the same level by the time Kirlia evolves and hits it's 4-5 level advantage earlier.

Zam is gonna outlevel Gardevoir, there's no "supposedly" to it. Medium Slow is stupidly fast in terms of leveling for the first half of the game.



It's 4-5 levels, not 2.

Level 40 Zam real defenses(assuming no IVs and EVs, for simplicity's sake):
HP 94
Def 41
SpD 73

Level 36 Voir real defenses(assuming no IVs and EVs, for simplicity's sake):
HP 94
Def 51
SpD 87

It's clearly in Gardevoir's favor and I never said it weren't. I said(or rather, implied) it wasn't as strong a lead as it seems, especially since Zam is faster and has Calm Mind himself now.

My issue was mainly the claim that Gardevoir's Psychic hits almost as hard, and with 113 SpA vs 95 SpA at those same levels, that's just not the case at all.

Essentially, argue the value of Gardevoir's actual benefits over Zam, do not compare their sheer hitting power with Psychic, because that's the one field where it actually gets flattened at every point in the game.
Click to expand...
So what your saying is that Gardevoir is worse than Alakazam due to “experience”.

From my perspective of playing with both of them, most of my Pokemon are at similar levels at certain points. For example, at Flannery, most of my Alakazam’s were at Lvl 27-30 and my Kirlia atm is Lvl 28. Even if Alakazam gets more Exp Points overall, Gardevoir still edges it out late-game with it’s superior physical bulk and Tbolt access, allowing it to solo matchups Alakazam would never dream of.

In power terms, yeah no shit Alakazam outpowers Kirlia with Psybeam, but that's usually a moot point against random trainers where Kirlia OHKO's random's with Confusion barring things like Skarmory and some evolved folk(and that's negated when Kirlia gets Psychic)> In regards to that, you also forgot to mention a trait that gives Kirlia the ability to keep up with Alakazam at this pint: Calm Mind. This gives Kirlia a better matchup against Flannery and (if you can evolve it) Norman, as CM allows it to boost it SpAtk and Def to easily sweep what would otherwise be hard matchups. Alakazam can hit harder out of the gate, but struggles against their aces(Torokal and Slaking).


Let’s look at Phoebe for an example. Both are able to outspeed Dusclops1 and get a free CM off, but most likely Dusclops will hit both T2 with Shadow Punch.
(Calculated at Lvl 48 to 46, neutral nature, no EV’s and 16 IV’s)
0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 102-122 (86.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 80-96 (64 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, despite the level advantage that Alakazam has, it has a far harder time than Gardevoir, who can take the hit relatively well and respond with a +2 Psychic OHKO.

So yeah, I don’t see why Alakazam’s EXP group should factor in their comparison. While I will have to wait until later, I can definitely see Garde being the better Pokemon.
 
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Infernape2018 said:
So what your saying is that Gardevoir is worse than Alakazam due to “experience”.
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying Alakazam hits harder with Psychic and that his inferior bulk is slightly overstated.

Infernape2018 said:
From my perspective of playing with both of them, most of my Pokemon are at similar levels at certain points. For example, at Flannery, most of my Alakazam’s were at Lvl 27-30 and my Kirlia atm is Lvl 28.
Click to expand...

Zam catches up to Kirlia roughly around level 26 if he started out 9 levels behind, yes. It's in the 30-45 section he really blows past her and extends his lead into 4-5 levels.



Infernape2018 said:
Even if Alakazam gets more Exp Points overall, Gardevoir still edges it out late-game with it’s superior physical bulk and Tbolt access, allowing it to solo matchups Alakazam would never dream of.

Let’s look at Phoebe for an example. Both are able to outspeed Dusclops1 and get a free CM off, but most likely Dusclops will hit both T2 with Shadow Punch.
(Calculated at Lvl 48 to 46, neutral nature, no EV’s and 16 IV’s)
0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 102-122 (86.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 80-96 (64 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, despite the level advantage that Alakazam has, it has a far harder time than Gardevoir, who can take the hit relatively well and respond with a +2 Psychic OHKO.

So yeah, I don’t see why Alakazam’s EXP group should factor in their comparison. While I will have to wait until later, I can definitely see Garde being the better Pokemon.
Click to expand...

You calculated a 2 level difference when I backed up the fact that Zam's advantage is 5 levels at that point

Level 51 Zam: 0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 88-104 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Even with just a 4 level advantage, 50 Zam still lives.

So yeah, Zam gets through this just fine.

The more notable thing to me is that Gardevoir actually has the bulk to handle this while a bit on the underleveled side(L43 Garde lives).




In power terms, yeah no shit Alakazam outpowers Kirlia with Psybeam,

My point was more that Zam is actually picking up Psybeam by the same time as Kirlia gets Calm Mind.

but that's usually a moot point against random trainers where Kirlia OHKO's random's with Confusion, barring things like Skarmory and some evolved folk(and that's negated when Kirlia gets Psychic)>

Kirlia is not OHKOing your average randoms with Confusion without a massive level advantage. It does not have raw unboosted power for that. Psychic is another thing entirely.

In regards to that, you also forgot to mention a trait that gives Kirlia the ability to keep up with Alakazam at this pint: Calm Mind. This gives Kirlia a better matchup against Flannery

Zam's Psybeam is almost as strong as Kirlia's +1 Psychic, and Zam has more bulk than +1 Kirlia as well.
As for Flannery, her Slugma1 can nearly OHKO +1 Kirlia. Assuming you don't have a potion ready, it can take out Kirlia Turn 2 with a second Overheat, even with -2 on Slugma and +2 on Kirlia. Meanwhile, Zam takes the overheat and can recover with no worries.
If Kirlia gets Potions, Zam can get an X Special(buyable at Fallarbor).

and (if you can evolve it) Norman, as CM allows it to boost it SpAtk and Def to easily sweep what would otherwise be hard matchups. Alakazam can hit harder out of the gate, but struggles against their aces(Torokal and Slaking).

Zam gets Calm Mind at Level 33. He is reaching that level almost at the same time as Kirlia evolves. Both of them can Calm Mind now.
 
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RWB said:
No, I'm saying Alakazam hits harder with Psychic and that his inferior bulk is slightly overstated.



Zam catches up to Kirlia roughly around level 26 if he started out 9 levels behind, yes. It's in the 30-45 section he really blows past her and extends his lead into 4-5 levels.





You calculated a 2 level difference when I backed up the fact that Zam's advantage is 5 levels at that point

Level 51 Zam: 0 Atk Dusclops Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 88-104 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Even with just a 4 level advantage, 50 Zam still lives.

So yeah, Zam gets through this just fine.
Click to expand...
How in the hell are you supposed to get a Lvl 51 Alakazam at the E4: doing a solo run. There is no way that any Pokemon should blow by another by that much unless your taking about the cover Legendaries. Most run's use 4-5 mons at best and most Pokemon, regardless of group end up at the same level.

Many run's on this thread have used mon's of all experience group's, yet they generally end at the 47-49 range. I don't see how Alakazam could get that high at all.
 
How in the hell are you supposed to get a Lvl 51 Alakazam at the E4: doing a solo run. There is no way that any Pokemon should blow by another by that much unless your taking about the cover Legendaries. Most run's use 4-5 mons at best and most Pokemon, regardless of group end up at the same level.

If you flat out just give Alakazam the exact same amount of experience as you do Gardevoir, it will be 4-5 levels ahead.
If they somehow end up at the same level, you have given a ton more experience to your Gardevoir than you ever allowed your Zam in essence, you are giving it better treatment than the Zam.

At level 46, this is how much exp they needed to get there:
Alakazam 89,523Gardevoir 121,670
For level 50:
Alakazam 117,360Gardevoir 156,250
At level 51:
Alakazam 125,126Gardevoir 165,813
Gardevoir reaches 46 before Zam reaches 51, but Zam reaches 51 before Voir reaches 47.

Many run's on this thread have used mon's of all experience group's, yet they generally end at the 47-49 range. I don't see how Alakazam could get that high at all.

My assumption is that they don't grind the mons equally, then. If they do and Zam ends at 47, Voir ends at 43, at best.


Also...
"There is no way that any Pokemon should blow by another by that much unless your taking about the cover Legendaries."

Medium Slow is the single fastest exp Group from level 11-29, and then the second fastest from 29-50. It makes perfect sence for it to beat out the slowest group by 5 levels by level 50.
 
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Infernape2018 said:
How in the hell are you supposed to get a Lvl 51 Alakazam at the E4: doing a solo run. There is no way that any Pokemon should blow by another by that much unless your taking about the cover Legendaries. Most run's use 4-5 mons at best and most Pokemon, regardless of group end up at the same level.

Many run's on this thread have used mon's of all experience group's, yet they generally end at the 47-49 range. I don't see how Alakazam could get that high at all.
Click to expand...
I don't think you were here for this, but last year I posted a run. At the end, my Grumpig was level 57 while the slow leveling things were level 49. (and yes I really checked and made sure they had the same amount of experience) Alakazam is medium slow, not fast like Grumpig. But as the RWB person said, medium slow isn't all that much worse than fast and still significantly better than slow. I don't see anything wrong with saying Alakazam should be 5 levels ahead of Gardevoir.

Also yes if most Pokemon can end up at the same level, then that's because the player gave the slower leveling Pokemon more experience.
 
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