Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I admittedly forgot about Double Team since most matchups that it could help in can already be beaten without it (namely Sidney & Drake); I suppose it's useful against Roxanne so I'll add that (as well as giving Ralts a bit more credit against Brawly & Wattson). I dislike setting up on her lead Dusclops since Curse cannot be dodged and can kill Garde's momentum by burning through Hyper Potions and allow Phoebe the chance to land a Shadow Ball & burn through even more Hyper Potions.

Isn't this a bit too hard on Raichu, especially given its ability to learn Light Screen to at least improve its matchups against some of the Waters? I'm going to assume you think Manectric has a worse time against Wallace since it's even more specially frail and thus more liable to get OHKOed by the powerful Water attacks, and doesn't even learn Light Screen to help save itself.

Checked my Raichu and manectric runs and they perform almost the same except manectric beats Tentacruel and Raichu didn't because sludge bomb was an ohko on Raichu with it's physical frailty, whereas hydro pump ohkos neither and it goes for toxic on manectric. Otherwise both beat wailord and both outspeed Gyarados, but both lose to Whiscash, Milotic, and ludicolo


I honestly don't see the point of reflect or safeguard on ralts, they're strictly outclasses by double team in my view and the default set should be Psychic/Thunderbolt/CM/Double Team

 

[TheGamer7777]

Checked my Raichu and manectric runs and they perform almost the same except manectric beats Tentacruel and Raichu didn't because sludge bomb was an ohko on Raichu with it's physical frailty, whereas hydro pump ohkos neither and it goes for toxic on manectric. Otherwise both beat wailord and both outspeed Gyarados, but both lose to Whiscash, Milotic, and ludicolo


I honestly don't see the point of reflect or safeguard on ralts, they're strictly outclasses by double team in my view and the default set should be Psychic/Thunderbolt/CM/Double Team

Double Team is an inconsistent move, you cannot depend upon evasiveness. Sure it can be powerful but it isn't a guarantee. Reflect is not only great team support but can let Gardevoir facilitate easier sweeps. Plus while I can't speak from personal experience from what I can tell any fight you'd want to Double Team in you'd want to use Reflect. The difference is that you only require 1 turn to set-up Reflect, whereas Double Team takes several turns for an inconsistent payoff. In terms of making fights faster and more efficient I'd have to say Reflect does a much better job.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Double Team is an inconsistent move, you cannot depend upon evasiveness. Sure it can be powerful but it isn't a guarantee. Reflect is not only great team support but can let Gardevoir facilitate easier sweeps. Plus while I can't speak from personal experience from what I can tell any fight you'd want to Double Team in you'd want to use Reflect. The difference is that you only require 1 turn to set-up Reflect, whereas Double Team takes several turns for an inconsistent payoff. In terms of making fights faster and more efficient I'd have to say Reflect does a much better job.

This is objectively wrong. I proved this in my own run with Ralts and Kadabra (starting here)

Gardevoir and Ralts don't need Reflect to succeed. Nine times out of ten they sweep without issue by simply attacking or using a Calm Mind and sweeping. The fourth moveslot is a wild card, and therefore needs to be tailored to help Gardevoir beat the matchups it otherwise loses to.

Against Roxanne the point is moot as reflect is not available, but Double Team is specifically notable for letting Ralts beat Roxanne with some consistency, typically avoiding damage from her Geodudes and buying time to reduce Nosepass's attack to negligible levels. Double Team also sees minor utility in discouraging Selfdestruct from wattsons Voltorb when kirlia sets up.

Against Sidney double team is slightly better but their functionally equivalent. Best play is to Tbolt Mightyena twice and set up on Shiftry since it's only ly attacking move is extrasensory. Double Team means you avoid more swaggers and if absol happened to outspeed you gives better EV than reflect.

Neither reflect nor double team factors in against Phoebe, it always t1 protects and is always OHKOed by +2 Psychic and never OHKOs with Shadow Punch


Drake is the key, the biggest reason why double team outclasses reflect for one very simple reason: Rock Tomb. Put simply, if you run Reflect you will not sweep this fight. You will fall to a combination of Flygon Earthquake, Kingdra Body Slam, and Salamence Crunch or Rock Slide. You allow Shelgon to hit you repeatedly with Double-Edge as you set up and you invite critical that can kill you. None of these attacks will OHKO you without reflect, only Flygon Earthquake is a notable threat, and Shelgon does not 2HKO without Reflect either meaning that Double Team gives you much better EV, especially when many of them are free against Shelgon's protects.


Long story short, Gardevoir's fourth moveslot is almost never used or useful, it steamrolls the game with exclusively Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Calm Mind. There are only three situations where it may need to use it's fourth move: Roxanne, Wattson, and Drake. In all other fights the fourth move is either unnecessary or superfluous (Sidney and Phoebe).

Double Team is the specific move that allows Ralts to beat Roxanne. Double Team provides insurance against Wattson. Double Team outperforms Reflect against Drake. There is no battle in the game where Reflect is necessary or aids in a sweep, as any other single battle where it could be used is better served by simply using one Calm Mind.

Reflect serves no purpose, should not be included as a primary suggestion, and should be subordinate to Double Team in all respects.

 

[Punchshroom]

Drake is the key, the biggest reason why double team outclasses reflect for one very simple reason: Rock Tomb. Put simply, if you run Reflect you will not sweep this fight. You will fall to a combination of Flygon Earthquake, Kingdra Body Slam, and Salamence Crunch or Rock Slide. You allow Shelgon to hit you repeatedly with Double-Edge as you set up and you invite critical that can kill you. None of these attacks will OHKO you without reflect, only Flygon Earthquake is a notable threat, and Shelgon does not 2HKO without Reflect either meaning that Double Team gives you much better EV, especially when many of them are free against Shelgon's protects.

I mean, I literally have swept this fight myself by simply healing up to full, set up Reflect, and tanked all three of the attacks that you've mentioned (including Shelgon's Double Edge before the sweep, also Mence hit me with Crunch probably to get the SpD drop or something idk), albeit I barely survived and had to heal before finishing off Altaria. Granted, you are right that Reflect rarely gets used and Double Team would do fine in those matchups regardless, so I changed my write-up accordingly.

Checked my Raichu and manectric runs and they perform almost the same except manectric beats Tentacruel and Raichu didn't because sludge bomb was an ohko on Raichu with it's physical frailty, whereas hydro pump ohkos neither and it goes for toxic on manectric. Otherwise both beat wailord and both outspeed Gyarados, but both lose to Whiscash, Milotic, and ludicolo

Ironically enough, when I faced his Tentacruel with my Raichu he used Toxic instead of attacking me (this was actually pretty annoying since my Raichu has prepared a Pecha Berry to deal with Milotic), so I believe the AI knows whether its attack is fatal or not and acts accordingly. For that matter, I'm having a hard time seeing how Raichu even gets OHKOed by Tentacruel's Sludge Bomb provided it isn't ~10 levels lower with a -Def nature (unless you were factoring in the poison chance as well, in which case Raichu does indeed have a high chance to get wiped out in one turn). But moving on; the biggest diverging factor between our runs is that my Raichu actually managed to beat Milotic 1v1. Here's how I did it:

Turn 1: Light Screen, get Toxiced.
Turn 2: X Special to allow TBolt to 2HKO (without Sitrus), get Surfed + Toxic damaged to >50%
Turn 3: TBolt & activate Milo's Sitrus, get Surfed + Toxic damaged to a sliver of health (there was admittedly potential to die here)
Turn 4: Full Restore, get Surfed
Turn 5: TBolt puts Milo in red, Surf puts me in just above red; Light Screen wears off
Turn 6: Wallace uses Full Restore, my TBolt does over 50%
Turn 7: TBolt for the KO

That was probably the shakiest outcome my Raichu could have had against Milotic; test runs that had Raichu preserve its Pecha or have Milo Surf t1 are much more in Raichu's favor. I suppose under similiar circumstances, a sufficiently leveled Manectric with a Magnet & X Special boost can potentially 2HKO Milotic right through the Sitrus Berry, though instances where Milo Surfs t1 can also turn shaky, and in my experiences of using both, it is harder for +1 SpA Manectric to breach the power barrier needed to 2HKO Milotic through Sitrus than it is for Light Screen Raichu to reach the bulk barrier required to survive a 2HKO from Surf and even some Toxic damage.

Between the uncertainty of the Electric-types' matchup against Tentacruel and Milotic, how about we both just agree that they have an overall decent-ish matchup against Wallace?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I mean you brought up manectric, it wasn't particularly salient to my initial comment anyway which was only to say that Wallace an average matchup for Raichu rather than a favorable one and thus ought to be omitted from the major battles section


As an aside im am quite sure that the AI knows if it has a chance to KO or not and acts accordingly, there was a previous run where I had something facing Wallace's Gyarados and it went for a +1 Hyper Beam to KO from 60-70% but from full it never attempted Hyper Beam over 16 trials

 

[TheGamer7777]

This is objectively wrong. I proved this in my own run with Ralts and Kadabra (starting here)

Gardevoir and Ralts don't need Reflect to succeed. Nine times out of ten they sweep without issue by simply attacking or using a Calm Mind and sweeping. The fourth moveslot is a wild card, and therefore needs to be tailored to help Gardevoir beat the matchups it otherwise loses to.

Against Roxanne the point is moot as reflect is not available, but Double Team is specifically notable for letting Ralts beat Roxanne with some consistency, typically avoiding damage from her Geodudes and buying time to reduce Nosepass's attack to negligible levels. Double Team also sees minor utility in discouraging Selfdestruct from wattsons Voltorb when kirlia sets up.

Against Sidney double team is slightly better but their functionally equivalent. Best play is to Tbolt Mightyena twice and set up on Shiftry since it's only ly attacking move is extrasensory. Double Team means you avoid more swaggers and if absol happened to outspeed you gives better EV than reflect.

Neither reflect nor double team factors in against Phoebe, it always t1 protects and is always OHKOed by +2 Psychic and never OHKOs with Shadow Punch


Drake is the key, the biggest reason why double team outclasses reflect for one very simple reason: Rock Tomb. Put simply, if you run Reflect you will not sweep this fight. You will fall to a combination of Flygon Earthquake, Kingdra Body Slam, and Salamence Crunch or Rock Slide. You allow Shelgon to hit you repeatedly with Double-Edge as you set up and you invite critical that can kill you. None of these attacks will OHKO you without reflect, only Flygon Earthquake is a notable threat, and Shelgon does not 2HKO without Reflect either meaning that Double Team gives you much better EV, especially when many of them are free against Shelgon's protects.


Long story short, Gardevoir's fourth moveslot is almost never used or useful, it steamrolls the game with exclusively Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Calm Mind. There are only three situations where it may need to use it's fourth move: Roxanne, Wattson, and Drake. In all other fights the fourth move is either unnecessary or superfluous (Sidney and Phoebe).

Double Team is the specific move that allows Ralts to beat Roxanne. Double Team provides insurance against Wattson. Double Team outperforms Reflect against Drake. There is no battle in the game where Reflect is necessary or aids in a sweep, as any other single battle where it could be used is better served by simply using one Calm Mind.

Reflect serves no purpose, should not be included as a primary suggestion, and should be subordinate to Double Team in all respects.

As you said yourself the Roxanne and Wattson are moot points as the move isn't available yet, and furthermore I have a hard time believing that story against Drake. Punchshrooms comment somewhat confirms my suspicions. Every single attack you mentioned that is a threat is physical, and therefore is not a threat if you use Reflect. I'm not 100% sure how Drake's A.I works but unless using reflect makes Shelgon more likely to use Rock Tomb then its still a superior option. But if thats true you can just either 1. Not set reflect against Shelgon/Drake, or 2. Kill Shelgon and try to set-up on something else, which you should be able to do with Reflect. Also I fail to see how you risk anymore crits setting up Reflect than you do with trying to set-up Double Teams. You take less damage on average with Reflect up. Allow me to show you (Note I assumed 0 EV's just for convenience)
0 Atk Shelgon Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 63-75 (44 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO (Base)
0 Atk Shelgon Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir through Reflect: 32-38 (22.3 - 26.5%) -- 15.3% chance to 4HKO (With Reflect)
-On average this lets you guaranteed take 2 more Double-Edges before needing to heal or dying. This is confirmed by what you said about Double-Edge never being a 2HKO, so with reflect up Double-Edge would never be a 4HKO.
-Meanwhile at +1 Evasion thanks to Double Team, Double-Edge has a 75% chance to hit. Aka it will hit 3/4 times on average. Therefore 1 Double Team will save you less than Reflect would, and taking the time to set-up more Double-Teams means you are using more turns than Reflect does. Which also proves your point about you being more likely to be crit moot, as the Reflect route is not only more efficient but also faster.

The only way this statement isn't true is if Drake prioritizes Rock Tomb against Reflect, in which case you have some what of a point. Though even with lowered speed the added bulk from Reflect should let Gardevoir still perform the sleep, as stated by Punchshroom. The only reason reflect is likely worse than double-team is that its just a waste of time to get the move for a move you'd almost never use.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Drake uses Rock Tomb in any situation. It's not a matter of prioritization, his typical move order is Protect -> Rock Tomb -> any given combination of those two plus double-edge.

"Not a threat" is a funny way to spell "Will kill you over three hits and stop your sweep" not to mention that Crunch isn't even a physical move

Are you seriously quoting damage calcs to show that Reflect takes less damage on a single hit? As if that wasn't obvious to anyone who understands how Pokemon works. The point isn't taking less damage on an individual hit, it's not getting hit in the first place which lowers the average damage received. This is basic math.

And you do fail at math because it's intuitive as to why you risk fewer crits with double team. Every single turn you sit behind reflect is a risk to eat a critical hit. This is not true with double team because every turn that double team is up reduces the chance of getting crit equal to the evasion boost. If you have three double teams you get crit half as often because the enemy hits half as often.

Your premise is simply wrong because you don't get to set up and sweep faster with Reflect because you're getting hit more often, for more average damage, and you aren't avoiding hits like Flygon's Earthquake that deal upwards of 80% to you. You will be forced to either use multiple healing items or lose your sweep. As I showed in my run, double team required one. Total.

Finally, I don't give a flying fuck if you "don't believe my story". Who do you think you are to be questioning it? You can come in here and spout your theorymon all you like but I've done the research and provided the evidence. I've done my homework. Do your own or shut the hell up.

 

[TheGamer7777]

Drake uses Rock Tomb in any situation. It's not a matter of prioritization, his typical move order is Protect -> Rock Tomb -> any given combination of those two plus double-edge.

"Not a threat" is a funny way to spell "Will kill you over three hits and stop your sweep" not to mention that Crunch isn't even a physical move

Are you seriously quoting damage calcs to show that Reflect takes less damage on a single hit? As if that wasn't obvious to anyone who understands how Pokemon works. The point isn't taking less damage on an individual hit, it's not getting hit in the first place which lowers the average damage received. This is basic math.

And you do fail at math because it's intuitive as to why you risk fewer crits with double team. Every single turn you sit behind reflect is a risk to eat a critical hit. This is not true with double team because every turn that double team is up reduces the chance of getting crit equal to the evasion boost. If you have three double teams you get crit half as often because the enemy hits half as often.

Your premise is simply wrong because you don't get to set up and sweep faster with Reflect because you're getting hit more often, for more average damage, and you aren't avoiding hits like Flygon's Earthquake that deal upwards of 80% to you. You will be forced to either use multiple healing items or lose your sweep. As I showed in my run, double team required one. Total.

Finally, I don't give a flying fuck if you "don't believe my story". Who do you think you are to be questioning it? You can come in here and spout your theorymon all you like but I've done the research and provided the evidence. I've done my homework. Do your own or shut the hell up.

The math is quite simple.
If you are 3HKO'd by Double-Edge, you must heal every 2 attacks. With Reflect you have to heal every 4 hits. The simple application of this is that you spend more turns healing with Double Team than with Reflect. The more turns you spend healing the more turns Shelgon has to crit you.
If you got to +6 CM against Drake then here are the numbers:
-With Reflect: On any given turn Drake has a 1/16 chance to crit you. You get to +1 for free on protect, turn 2 Reflect, you then have 4 turns to set up to +5, heal once, and then get to +6. That is a total of 8 turns, but only 6 turns of Double Edge.
-With Double Team: You can use Double Team instantly for free, and then begin to go to +6. Every 2 hits you must heal, and you get hit 3/4 double edges on average. Rock Tomb meanwhile will be 62% accurate. So lets assume the average happens, turn 1 DT, turn 2 CM into RT miss, turn 3 CM and he hits RT, turn 4 CM he hits DE, turn 5 CM he hits DE, turn 6 you heal he hits DE, turn 7 CM he misses DE, turn 8 CM he hits DE, turn 9 heal he hits DE. In this situation he hits 6 moves, 5 of which are Double Edge, and you take 1 extra turn. But depending upon luck this can be better or worse. For example if he hits the first Rock Tomb then on average he hits you with the same number of Double-Edges as the Reflect route, but you also take an extra turn. Setting up to any more than +2 Double Team does make it easier to dodge but does not make the fight faster, and its still inconsistent if you actually get any dodges at all (At +2 Double Edge does go down to 60% accuracy though, which is substantially better.)

As for taking less damage on average you are still wrong.
At 120 Power and 75% accuracy Double-Edge does on average 90 damage a turn (120 x .75)
At 60 Power (Since Reflect essentially halves the damage taken making Double Edge in effect a 60 base power move) and 100% accuracy Double-Edge does on average 60 damage a turn.
Therefore you still take less damage on average with Reflect.

With Reflect up an 80% EQ does 40%, that is not a 2HKO and is not much of a threat so long as you can maintain Reflect, which you should be able to. Its especially not a threat if you OHKO Flygon back (Which you most likely are). You are right though how dare I not consider that Crunch is a special move, I sure do wish there was a way for Gardevoir to boost its special defense...

As for doing my homework, I'd love to have the time to go through a run with Gardevoir and prove you wrong. However, I do not currently have the time to do so. Just because you did your homework doesn't prove you know what your talking about, and in this case you are just wrong.

As an aside relying upon luck to beat the a fight is a generally poor tactic, especially if it isn't in your favor. The only way to get the battle in your favor is to set-up multiple evasion boosts, when Reflect doesn't require as much to be as useful. And before you say something as a response to this comment consider this: If a pokemon requires a miss in order to sweep say Roxanne's nosepass is it good? The answer is no its not, because that means 80% of the time you lose. Against Drake the situation is different, but its the same principle. Luck =/= Efficiency, and since Gardevoir can't set-up against a benign target you do run risks by using Double Team. (And no I'm not saying Gard is bad)

PS: You'd be surprised the number of people who don't understand mechanics if you don't explain it to them, which is why I don't take the chance of assuming anyone knows what I'm talking about.

 

[Merritt]

Punchshroom the points in the Ralts writeup seem good overall, but I'd suggest cutting the Safeguard mention entirely to be honest. This quote sums it up pretty well.

Long story short, Gardevoir's fourth moveslot is almost never used or useful, it steamrolls the game with exclusively Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Calm Mind.

Rephrasing the last point in Movepool to restate this would be fine, Double Team is the only one that deserves a specific mention for being the way for Ralts to get through a fight it would otherwise struggle greatly with (Roxanne).

The other moves have their niche uses, but trying to write out all the niche options in each of the writeups is an exercise in futility. Reflect is a fine option for the 4th slot lategame purely because it can help out a teammate in a situation where Gardevoir fails to sweep, but there's so little overall utility for Gardevoir's 4th move in general at that point that mentioning either Reflect or Safeguard feels like a waste.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The math is quite simple.
If you are 3HKO'd by Double-Edge, you must heal every 2 attacks. With Reflect you have to heal every 4 hits. The simple application of this is that you spend more turns healing with Double Team than with Reflect. The more turns you spend healing the more turns Shelgon has to crit you.
If you got to +6 CM against Drake then here are the numbers:
-With Reflect: On any given turn Drake has a 1/16 chance to crit you. You get to +1 for free on protect, turn 2 Reflect, you then have 4 turns to set up to +5, heal once, and then get to +6. That is a total of 8 turns, but only 6 turns of Double Edge.
-With Double Team: You can use Double Team instantly for free, and then begin to go to +6. Every 2 hits you must heal, and you get hit 3/4 double edges on average. Rock Tomb meanwhile will be 62% accurate. So lets assume the average happens, turn 1 DT, turn 2 CM into RT miss, turn 3 CM and he hits RT, turn 4 CM he hits DE, turn 5 CM he hits DE, turn 6 you heal he hits DE, turn 7 CM he misses DE, turn 8 CM he hits DE, turn 9 heal he hits DE. In this situation he hits 6 moves, 5 of which are Double Edge, and you take 1 extra turn. But depending upon luck this can be better or worse. For example if he hits the first Rock Tomb then on average he hits you with the same number of Double-Edges as the Reflect route, but you also take an extra turn. Setting up to any more than +2 Double Team does make it easier to dodge but does not make the fight faster, and its still inconsistent if you actually get any dodges at all (At +2 Double Edge does go down to 60% accuracy though, which is substantially better.)

As for taking less damage on average you are still wrong.
At 120 Power and 75% accuracy Double-Edge does on average 90 damage a turn (120 x .75)
At 60 Power (Since Reflect essentially halves the damage taken making Double Edge in effect a 60 base power move) and 100% accuracy Double-Edge does on average 60 damage a turn.
Therefore you still take less damage on average with Reflect.

With Reflect up an 80% EQ does 40%, that is not a 2HKO and is not much of a threat so long as you can maintain Reflect, which you should be able to. Its especially not a threat if you OHKO Flygon back (Which you most likely are). You are right though how dare I not consider that Crunch is a special move, I sure do wish there was a way for Gardevoir to boost its special defense...

As for doing my homework, I'd love to have the time to go through a run with Gardevoir and prove you wrong. However, I do not currently have the time to do so. Just because you did your homework doesn't prove you know what your talking about, and in this case you are just wrong.

As an aside relying upon luck to beat the a fight is a generally poor tactic, especially if it isn't in your favor. The only way to get the battle in your favor is to set-up multiple evasion boosts, when Reflect doesn't require as much to be as useful. And before you say something as a response to this comment consider this: If a pokemon requires a miss in order to sweep say Roxanne's nosepass is it good? The answer is no its not, because that means 80% of the time you lose. Against Drake the situation is different, but its the same principle. Luck =/= Efficiency, and since Gardevoir can't set-up against a benign target you do run risks by using Double Team. (And no I'm not saying Gard is bad)

PS: You'd be surprised the number of people who don't understand mechanics if you don't explain it to them, which is why I don't take the chance of assuming anyone knows what I'm talking about.

If you don't understand why double team enabling Ralts to beat nosepass through assisting with misses and by proxy why double team allowing gardevoir to sweep Drake where reflect doesn't is good, than you don't understand a thing about the function of this tier list or about the purpose of niche moves in beating bad matchups, something made eminently clear by your absolute failure in understanding of emerald AI or optimal usage of double team which yes does include using it more than once. Something you'd be keenly aware of if you actually used the Pokemon and move you're trying to talk about rather than pretending you know what you're doing. Or literally anything about the actual damage ranges exhibited in-game, something I've shown and posted time and time again as references for others and something you show complete ignorance of with meaningless calculations.


This conversation is finished. I have no further interest in arguing with someone who alleges me for a liar and refuses to back up false claims with proof.

 

[Vinc2612]

The math is quite simple.
If you are 3HKO'd by Double-Edge, you must heal every 2 attacks. With Reflect you have to heal every 4 hits. The simple application of this is that you spend more turns healing with Double Team than with Reflect. The more turns you spend healing the more turns Shelgon has to crit you.
If you got to +6 CM against Drake then here are the numbers:
-With Reflect: On any given turn Drake has a 1/16 chance to crit you. You get to +1 for free on protect, turn 2 Reflect, you then have 4 turns to set up to +5, heal once, and then get to +6. That is a total of 8 turns, but only 6 turns of Double Edge.
-With Double Team: You can use Double Team instantly for free, and then begin to go to +6. Every 2 hits you must heal, and you get hit 3/4 double edges on average. Rock Tomb meanwhile will be 62% accurate. So lets assume the average happens, turn 1 DT, turn 2 CM into RT miss, turn 3 CM and he hits RT, turn 4 CM he hits DE, turn 5 CM he hits DE, turn 6 you heal he hits DE, turn 7 CM he misses DE, turn 8 CM he hits DE, turn 9 heal he hits DE. In this situation he hits 6 moves, 5 of which are Double Edge, and you take 1 extra turn. But depending upon luck this can be better or worse. For example if he hits the first Rock Tomb then on average he hits you with the same number of Double-Edges as the Reflect route, but you also take an extra turn. Setting up to any more than +2 Double Team does make it easier to dodge but does not make the fight faster, and its still inconsistent if you actually get any dodges at all (At +2 Double Edge does go down to 60% accuracy though, which is substantially better.)

1/ All of this to say "you take an extra turn with the Double-Team route". But the Reflect route only uses Reflect once, so it won't stay on the field after Shielgon. When you set it up again, you lose that extra turn.

2/ I find it funny that you mention "Double-Team is inconsistent if you actually get any dodges at all" while you have 64 % chances to dodge every other Double-Edge (and we're talking about taking a lot of hits, not two).

The lot of hits is the important thing here. Since you were talking about 6 turns of Double-Edge: you have 32 % chances to get critted in 6 Double-Edge with Reflect up, and 20 % chances in 6 Double-Edge with the Double-Team route (two Double-Team).

We can even add that since you heal when the next Double-Edge would kill:
- Double-Team route: Double-Edge does 40 % (60 % left), Double-Edge does 40 %, heal, only half of the Double-Edge would kill you in your run.
- Reflect route: Double-Edge does 20 % (80 % left), three Double-Edge does 60 %, heal, any of the three Double-Edge would kill Gardevoir, making 75 % of the crits lethal.

So basically, in 6 Double-Edges:
- You have 10 % chances to die with two Double-Team.
- You have 24 % chances to die with two Reflect.

Considering that the critical hit is the only way you could lose with either route, Reflect is actually more risky with the same amount of turns passed. You need to take 140 % more turns with Double-Team in order to be less likely to win.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Anyway, here's a new one!

Name: Ralts
Availability: Ralts is found in Route 102 at a 4% encounter rate.
Stats: Rather poor to mediocre stats as Ralts and Kirlia, but Gardevoir has amazing Special Attack & Special Defense and sufficient Speed.
Typing: Psychic typing grants good neutral STAB coverage for much of the game, though Dark-types are a hassle in the early game. It can make use of its resistances against Brawly and Tate&Liza, but weaknesses to Sidney and Phoebe can prove annoying.
Movepool: Ralts first needs 2 levels to acquire Confusion to be able to fight on its own. As a Kirlia, it soon gains access to two of its most important moves, Calm Mind and Psychic, at ridiculously early levels, which tear down much of the game and are mostly all it needs. Kirlia can use the Shock Wave TM for additional coverage, which can then be upgraded to the Thunderbolt TM as Gardevoir. Double Team can possibly cheese through any tough matchups. Gardevoir can also use Safeguard for situationally easier setup opportunities, though the TM is obtained rather late at the Lilycove Department Store and is largely insignificant.
Major Battles: Ralts can rely on Double Team to circumvent Roxanne's inaccurate attacks and can naturally take on all of Brawly's Pokemon, though an underleveled one might need help from Potions or smart timing of Growl to keep up with his Makuhita. Kirlia could use Calm Mind to stand up to Wattson, but a clean sweep is not easy given the number of Thunder Wave, Sonicboom, and Selfdestruct users on his team, though a Cheri Berry can help stave off paralysis if not temporarily. From here on out, Kirlia/Gardevoir should be able to set up Calm Minds against the bosses' lead Pokemon with ease to be able to wipe out their team with boosted Psychics and Thunderbolts, though it is to be expected that Kirlia/Gardevoir might need to be healed in the process. Gardevoir might also need some additional help or insurance against certain opponents, such as Double Team boosts or an X Defend/X Speed beforehand to avoid heavy retaliation from Norman's Slakings, or berries to cure status such as Swagger, Sweet Kiss, and Toxic during setup. Phoebe can be an annoying matchup if Dusclops uses Curse before Gardevoir finishes Calm Minding (usually 3-4 times are needed for the clean sweep), but otherwise she can be dealt with as well.
Additional Comments: It is not recommended for Gardevoir to set up against the lead Mightyenas of Maxie, Archie, and Sidney despite them posing little offensive threat, as Gardevoir cannot prevent their attempts at using Roar, Scary Face, and Sand-Attack to disrupt Gardevoir's sweep. Set up on their other Pokemon instead.

I feel like this is a little bit too long. Remember that people reading this onsite (if) would likely appreciate it more if it was more "to the point" when looking at what they might want to use.

For example I looked at the movepool and major battles section and they could be rewritten like (you do not necessarily have to use these):

Movepool: Ralts is useless until learning Confusion at Lv6. After evolution, access to Calm Mind and Psychic allow it to tear through most of the game. Kirlia can learn Shock Wave and later Thunderbolt via TM as useful coverage. Ralts is rather flexible outside of Calm Mind/Psychic/Thunderbolt; Double Team, Reflect, and Safeguard are solid choices.

Major Battles: An appropriately leveled Ralts cleaves through Brawly, but relies on Double Team or luck to beat Roxanne/Wattson respectively. Afterwards, it is able to beat most other leaders after some Calm Minds with little item assistance. Sometimes it might need some extra insurance against some opponents (in the form of an item or a move) or a little luck (e.g. Phoebe's Dusclops not using Curse). In general, there are not many opponents that Gardevoir cannot deal with.

Yeah one could argue that some of the detail could be relevant, but the main point I'm getting at is "less is more".

One other thing probably worth talking about is Synchronise vs. Trace in AC as they can both be useful in different cases (maybe hindering at times; you might not want to send Trace Gardevoir on Slaking which is more relevant for Ruby/Sapphire).

 

[DHR-107]

Ralts: Why is Safeguard mentioned? Replace this with Double Team, per my run it specifically enables sweeps vs Roxanne, Sidney, and Drake. You overestimate Brawly and Wattsons ability to prevent a sweep, vs Brawly a lv 16 Ralts comfortably beats Makuhita without being threatened with a KO in return; vs Wattson a simple Cheri Berry protects against Voltob and Electrike is easy setup fodder. Again referencing my run, Gardevoir can set up with Double Team against Dusclops rather than requiring Reflect to look for chances against Sableye.

Are we really calling using Double Team to not get murderized efficient? I think I have said this before elsewhere. This should be a negative against Ralts, not a positive.

The whole Heracross vs Winona thing is a bit of a crapshoot and probably super relies on Winona being an idiot. Either that or Texas' Heracross had the best defence it could possibly have. Either way, it's not a matchup anyone would honestly use, so its kind of irrelevant. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

Name: Ralts
Availability: Ralts is found in Route 102 at a 4% encounter rate.
Stats: Rather poor to mediocre stats as Ralts and Kirlia, but Gardevoir has amazing Special Attack & Special Defense and sufficient Speed.
Typing: Psychic typing grants good neutral STAB coverage for much of the game, though Dark-types are a hassle in the early game. It can make use of its resistances against Brawly and Tate&Liza, but weaknesses to Sidney and Phoebe can prove annoying.
Movepool: Ralts first needs 2 levels to acquire Confusion to be able to fight on its own. As a Kirlia, it soon gains access to two of its most important moves, Calm Mind and Psychic, at ridiculously early levels, which tear down much of the game and are mostly all it needs. Kirlia can use the Shock Wave TM for additional coverage, which can then be upgraded to the Thunderbolt TM as Gardevoir. Double Team can possibly cheese through any tough matchups. Gardevoir can also use Safeguard for situationally easier setup opportunities, though the TM is obtained rather late at the Lilycove Department Store and is largely insignificant.
Major Battles: Ralts can rely on Double Team to circumvent Roxanne's inaccurate attacks and can naturally take on all of Brawly's Pokemon, though an underleveled one might need help from Potions or smart timing of Growl to keep up with his Makuhita. Kirlia could use Calm Mind to stand up to Wattson, but a clean sweep is not easy given the number of Thunder Wave, Sonicboom, and Selfdestruct users on his team, though a Cheri Berry can help stave off paralysis if not temporarily. From here on out, Kirlia/Gardevoir should be able to set up Calm Minds against the bosses' lead Pokemon with ease to be able to wipe out their team with boosted Psychics and Thunderbolts, though it is to be expected that Kirlia/Gardevoir might need to be healed in the process. Gardevoir might also need some additional help or insurance against certain opponents, such as Double Team boosts or an X Defend/X Speed beforehand to avoid heavy retaliation from Norman's Slakings, or berries to cure status such as Swagger, Sweet Kiss, and Toxic during setup. Phoebe can be an annoying matchup if Dusclops uses Curse before Gardevoir finishes Calm Minding (usually 3-4 times are needed for the clean sweep), but otherwise she can be dealt with as well.
Additional Comments: It is not recommended for Gardevoir to set up against the lead Mightyenas of Maxie, Archie, and Sidney despite them posing little offensive threat, as Gardevoir cannot prevent their attempts at using Roar, Scary Face, and Sand-Attack to disrupt Gardevoir's sweep. Set up on their other Pokemon instead.

This is way way waaaaaaayyyyy too long. Needs to be half the size or smaller. Again, Double Team is absolutely not a positive thing.

Long story short, Gardevoir's fourth moveslot is almost never used or useful, it steamrolls the game with exclusively Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Calm Mind. There are only three situations where it may need to use it's fourth move: Roxanne, Wattson, and Drake. In all other fights the fourth move is either unnecessary or superfluous (Sidney and Phoebe).

Double Team is the specific move that allows Ralts to beat Roxanne. Double Team provides insurance against Wattson. Double Team outperforms Reflect against Drake. There is no battle in the game where Reflect is necessary or aids in a sweep, as any other single battle where it could be used is better served by simply using one Calm Mind.

Reflect serves no purpose, should not be included as a primary suggestion, and should be subordinate to Double Team in all respects.

At least this is brought up here. I agree that it's a decent option, but it really shouldn't be a go to move. Its existence means you have to double set up against certain targets (if you're determined to use Gardevoir in those battles at least).

Your premise is simply wrong because you don't get to set up and sweep faster with Reflect because you're getting hit more often, for more average damage, and you aren't avoiding hits like Flygon's Earthquake that deal upwards of 80% to you. You will be forced to either use multiple healing items or lose your sweep. As I showed in my run, double team required one. Total.

Honestly? This sounds like a horribly negative point against Gardevoir. Taking 80% damage from a late game move unless you've set up Double Team (or Reflect) is a huge hit. Do you still OHKO in this scenario with Psychic? At what Calm Mind level does this need to be? So far, even in Punchshrooms write up, I am having a very difficult time reading that Ralts should be S tier. It just has too many issues you have to play around, which isn't the definition of an S Rank mon. Especially considering how awful it is until you get to Gardevoir.

And before you say something as a response to this comment consider this: If a pokemon requires a miss in order to sweep say Roxanne's nosepass is it good? The answer is no its not, because that means 80% of the time you lose. Against Drake the situation is different, but its the same principle. Luck =/= Efficiency, and since Gardevoir can't set-up against a benign target you do run risks by using Double Team. (And no I'm not saying Gard is bad)

This quote sums up the Ralts thoughts for me at the moment. If you need to double set up (In this instance with both Double Team AND Calm Mind), this is the opposite of efficient. As I said earlier in this post: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. All these extra tests are doing is showing me that Gardevoir has no rights to being an S Rank Pokemon. "It needs a Cheri Berry", "It Needs X Speed", "It needs X defence". This sounds like a lot of investment. I know we aren't supposed to compare to other Pokemon, but when Mudkip slaps the crap out of things with little to zero aid, it's clear there is a disconnect here. If Ralts goes down, Abra probably should too (same issues with the same bosses, but does hit harder/faster), but at least Kadabra holds its own decently without setup, unlike Kirlia.

Anyway: After a bit of a haitus, I continued my Ruby game. While I still don't think Whismur should be E Rank, I can definitely understand why its down there. It falls shockingly short on a number of KOs and is pretty damned slow. Even with Strength it's missing KO's it should really be making. Mudkip is the easiest S Rank ever, whenever you use it, shit dies with zero problems. Plusle is so far surprisingly effective at doing what it needs too, and laying on the hurt when needed as well. Torkoal is slow, but can tank hits and with Body Slam it negates the speed somewhat. With Curse too it can just do similar work to other Set Up requiring Pokemon. I'm on my way to fight Norman now, so we will see how Torkoal fares against the huge hitting Slakings there.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

stuff from DHR

I'm going to take this slowly because I feel like you've not done your due diligence at all in responding to me. By and large the comments you make are unduly critical, ignore key points that counteract the things you say, and in particular completely ignore the reasons why Ralts is S tier in the first place.

Firstly. Double Team. You say that "using Double Team to not get murderized is a negative, not a positive". This is false, and disingenuous to the usage of Double Team. Let me make this crystal clear. Double Team specifically allows you to beat matchups that you would otherwise lose. These are matchups that fellow S tier Pokemon Abra will also lose. Double Team does not get used outside of those matchups that are otherwise losing. It specifically turns those matchups into winning or winnable. This is strictly a positive thing. This strictly benefits "efficiency". If your team choices meant that Ralts was your best option, Double Team would allow you to beat these specific matchups where otherwise it could not. In no circumstance does using Double Team detract from your efficiency. In no circumstances is the use of Double Team a negative modifier for Ralts.

Secondly, Heracross. Just because we can doesn't mean we should is a crap argument and shows that you really didn't read my play by play of the fight. Heracross was underleveled, required zero support, and swept Winona cleanly. This is the literal definition of your "efficient" gameplay. Your claim that it is "super reliant" on Winona being an idiot is complete hearsay. Heracross requires a single turn where Swablu does not use Aerial Ace or Perish Song on turn 1 at which point Aerial Ace is no longer a threat, and if Perish Song is feared Swablu can be easily OHKOed and further Bulk Ups can be used on the incoming Pelipper or Tropius who similarly do not threaten Heracross once it is at +2 Defense. The claims you make here are unreasonable and unfair, and unrepresentative of reality and the overarching point that Heracross tears through the game.

Thirdly, your comments on bulk. As I mentioned in my run, which at this point it becomes apparent you have not actually read, Flygon's Earthquake is the strongest attack at this point in the game that Gardevoir can expect to face. This is the attack that Gardevoir takes 80% from. This is an attack that will always OHKO Alakazam. This is a large part of why Gardevoir justifies S rank, its superior bulk. It is completely disingenuous to somehow frame Gardevoir's ability to tank the strongest physical attack it is likely to face in the Elite Four against its weakest defense as a negative. Absolutely disingenuous. It is in fact this ability to tank this attack that proves where and why Gardevoir is able to sweep Drake, whether that be by reducing the incoming damage with Reflect, or avoiding it or the follow up attack altogether through Double Team. I did not specifically test how many Calm Minds were required for each tier of damage, but based on my understanding of Gardevoir's power level I would be reasonably confident that it would OHKO Flygon after one Calm Mind and absolutely certain it would do so after two. This is itself a moot point as Gardevoir will be comfortably setting up to at least +3 against Shelgon without issue, to be certain that it will OHKO Salamence.

Finally, your comments on Ralts's tiering. You have somehow managed to laser focus on one of Gardevoir's most impressive accomplishments and turn it into your driving argument against it. Let's recap Gardevoir's performance. Easily defeats the following: Brawly, Wattson (no support required, Cheri Berry and/or one Double Team make the task easier at zero opportunity cost), Flannery, Winona, Juan, Sidney, Glacia, Wallace. Demonstrates very strong performance covering a minimum of multiple enemy kills and including sweep opportunities: Tate and Liza, Phoebe (the single scenario where Gardevoir cannot sweep outright is where it uses Curse t2 or Confuse Ray t2 and Curse t3, and this from a Dusclops that prioritizes Protect and will use it t1 and t2 on a semi-regular basis, and which additionally will prioritize Shadow Punch to Curse due to super effective STAB, a move that does not KO Gardevoir). The only matchup Kirlia loses to: Norman. The two matchups that would otherwise be losing but which Gardevoir beats on its own merits: Roxanne (Double Team), Drake (per my run, with Double Team and usage of one single Potion required).

Negligible item usage. No X Items required. Cleanly sweeping the entire game with three moves except for three specific matchups, and further sweeping two of those matchups with a single tech move choice. No Pokemon is perfect, Swampert itself struggles against Brawly, Norman, Glacia, and Wallace each to some extent. And yet Gardevoir is able to overcome almost all of its very few poor matchups on its own merits, while simultaneously "smacking the crap out of things" as you say across the rest of the game.


As a final point, let me make this explicitly clear, this is not just my view and opinion on this. After I ran through and made my case for S tier Gardevoir no less than four other people including Punchshroom and Merritt himself ran through with Gardevoir and came to the same conclusions that I did. They saw with their own experiences that these things are true, something there is significant cause to question whether you have done when you say things like "especially considering how awful it is until Gardevoir" which are simply untrue and have been thoroughly disproven.

Frankly you seriously need to reevaluate your criteria for S rank when you've effectively argued that only Mudskip deserves to be there. Both Ralts and Abra are clear and definitive rebuttals to this line of thinking as has been supported time and again in the recent history of this thread.



In response to Its_A_Random's commentary on Punchshroom's writeup, please note that Kirlia does not require either Double Team or luck to beat Wattson, unless you consider not getting fully paralyzed multiple times to be notable luck, something that would be applicable to any Pokemon not immune to the condition.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

In unrelated news I'm planning out the following for my next run

Lotad: Surf, Ice Beam, Giga Drain, Rain Dance
Aron: Iron Tail, Double-Edge, Brick Break, Aerial Ace
Nosepass: Rock Slide, Return, Toxic, Rest
Numel: Flamethrower, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Overheat
Seviper: Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Crunch
Phanpy: Earthquake, Iron Tail, Rollout, Defense Curl


Goals:
- suffer through Lombre, validate Lotad as D tier and/or check if it could justify a rise or fall
- update my experience with Aron, observe if D is accurate or if my previously held beliefs could be supported
- see if Nosepass has a case for E, think this set could have potential
- make a determination on the recent discussion on Numel being C or D
- get experience with the last mono-Poison in Seviper
- have some fun with Phanpy, compare to Rhyhorn

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Roxanne

Lombre (16): Sixteen was the lowest I could keep it. Was what you'd expect, Bullet Seed rolled her over.


Brawly

Lombre (20): Twenty was still the lowest I could keep it before getting Aron, barring skipping trainers. Poor performance even with the high levels though, Bullet Seed does not do very much damage so you need decent rolls to get past Machop and need to finesse Meditite to heal when it does and avoid Focus Punch, and you just never get past Makuhita.

Aron (17): You need one flinch to get past Machop as you 3HKO and are 2HKOed by Karate Chop or OHKOed by +1 KC in return, but Meditite does give free turns to play for attack boost procs on Metal Claw if you do beat Machop. Note that while Karate Chop is preferred and Aron does live one, Low Kick will OHKO if selected. A poor matchup overall.

End up having to abandon this and come back later, even with good RNG against Machop I had no way of getting past Makuhita, simply couldn't hit it hard enough. Went back at level 25 for each, Aron swept through at that point with one Metal Claw proc allowing for Take Down to OHKO Makuhita.


Wattson

Lombre (26): A little high on levels due to the limited party until after Rock Smash but not necessarily a bad thing, open up some testing options. About as strong as that Sableye run I did a while back. Lombre is having the problem of Bullet Seed sucking ass at this point. Nature Power is a 3HKO on both Electrike and Voltorb, either of which do 20-25% back with their STAb, Voltorb outspeeding. Magneton is a really bad matchup, you basically can't hit it for any kind of damage, it will 4HKO with Shock Wave so you can Potion stall but that's it. Loses to Manectric, Nature Power is roughly a 6HKO and Shock Wave easily outdamages that, in addition to Howl Quick Attack tingz.

Aron (26): A little high on levels due to the limited party until after Rock Smash but not necessarily a bad thing, open up some testing options. About as strong as that Sableye run I did a while back. Takes Voltorb's Spark for about a third, then 2HKOs with either Take Down or Rock Tomb, Rock Tomb seems to incite it go for Selfdestruct which obviously did zero. Also 2HKOs Electrike who gets off one Howl before dying after the Rock Tomb speed drop. Magneton outspeeds and OHKOs, could be some counterplay if you kept Mud-Slap and something else can lower its speed. Against Manectric you live one Shock Wave and it likes o Howl so this can be winnable since you outspeed after 2 Rock Tombs and 4HKO afer Stitrus with Take Down from there, but the more common scenario is a slowed Manectric already used Sitrus and below half health.

This was about as bad as Brawly, had to Potion spam Lombre to get past Magneton just so I could open up the world enough to get Nosepass and Numel. Fun. Run. So. Far.

Picked those two up now though and Seviper is soon so things should get a tad more interesting now

 

[Punchshroom]

Merritt Removed Safeguard & Reflect mentions entirely; mentioned Berries as the anti-status strat instead.

Texas Cloverleaf With your comment about Taillow's dwindling lategame potential; considering Swellow's modus operandi by that point is simply crashing into things and hope for the best, I've entertained the idea of suggesting Hyper Beam just to give Swellow a bit more impact before it inevitably bites the dust (example: I've encountered multiple 1v1 situations where Swellow fails to 2HKO something with Return but can win with Return + Hyper Beam, or just leaving a 50-60% damage parting gift before getting oneshotted). I'm not advocating the idea of Hyper Beam being a "saving grace" for Swellow here btw, just something to let it fall off a bit less hard by lategame, not to mention Swellow barely has anything else worth using in its moveslot. What do you think of this idea?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Merritt Removed Safeguard & Reflect mentions entirely; mentioned Berries as the anti-status strat instead.

Texas Cloverleaf With your comment about Taillow's dwindling lategame potential; considering Swellow's modus operandi by that point is simply crashing into things and hope for the best, I've entertained the idea of suggesting Hyper Beam just to give Swellow a bit more impact before it inevitably bites the dust (example: I've encountered multiple 1v1 situations where Swellow fails to 2HKO something with Return but can win with Return + Hyper Beam, or just leaving a 50-60% damage parting gift before getting oneshotted). I'm not advocating the idea of Hyper Beam being a "saving grace" for Swellow here btw, just something to let it fall off a bit less hard by lategame, not to mention Swellow barely has anything else worth using in its moveslot. What do you think of this idea?

I'm supportive of it, my Dodrio run used the very same strategy, it was very effective. Dodrio obviously had a higher power cliff but it might be exactly what Swellow needs to keep pace.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

In regards to the Ralts write-up, I don't think I gave enough consideration to the ability potential.

In my run I had synchronize which meant that holding a Cheri Berry was actually an offensive strat against Wattson as it left Voltorb paralyzed but I'm realizing that it could also lead to a better T+L matchup.

Can anyone confirm if Trace takes Levitate from Claydol? In my run the only reason Gardevoir didn't do better was because of repeated Earthquakes but if it Traces Levitate Tate and Liza are turned into a clean sweep.

 

[Merritt]

Trace should have a random chance to copy either Claydol or Xatu's ability. However, hunting down a specific ability on a 4% encounter mon is a pretty large waste of time.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Trace should have a random chance to copy either Claydol or Xatu's ability. However, hunting down a specific ability on a 4% encounter mon is a pretty large waste of time.

Wouldn't be about hunting a specific one, only noting the advantage given by each as a distinct difference

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Hilariously I actually wiped to Maxie's Mightyena the first go round for the first time in probably 12 years or so

Flannery

(28): Secret Power and Crunch both 2HKO with SP giving some parahax options, Numel does small damage with Take Down or sets Sunny Day usuall but could high roll a Magnitude if unlucky. Slugma dies to Secret Power. Secret Power can 4HKO Camerupt but you'll get KOed by Sunny Day+Overheat in return.

(28): I got outsped despite the level avdantage weirdly enough. Enemy Numel used Take Down / Magnitude / Sunny Day in roughly a 45 / 35 / 20 split, my Numel would OHKO with anything Mag7 or higher (Mag6 left a sliver) and would tank anything up to Mag8 in return. Enemy Numel KOed me less than 10% of the time, I won without damage taken close to half the time. Slugma is an easy OHKO. Camel used Tackle, missed, and was OHKOed by Mag9. Mag8+Mag6 does about 70% while Torkoal 2HKOed with Body Slam+Sunny Overheat. Mag8+Mag9 or better is required for the clean 2HKO. Good performance.

(28): You 2HKO with Rock Slide but Numel outspeeds, you comfortably tank any two Magnitudes of 7 or less and are only OHKOed by Mag10, Mag9+5 or less also fails to KO. Take Down is lol. Sunny Overheat is painful but not an issue. Rock Slide OHKOs Slugma. Camerupt can't really touch you but Sunny Day boosted Overheat can kill from about 40% on the first hit. You 4HKO with Rock Slide (Rock Slide - Rock Slide - Return - Rock Slide dodges Hyper Potion range). Torkoal is a 4HKO with Rock Slide and an easy kill with Thunder Wave paraflinching, Sunny Overheat KO range is only a little higher than Camel. Probably needs a Potion to win just to avoid an Overheat kill since Camerupt will Attract stall you, but a clean solo.

(29): You beat Numel with two Take Downs has long as it rolls Mag8 or less, you OHKO Slugma, and Camerupt OHKOs with Overheat. Bog standard performance.

(30): When I said suffer through Lombre... Numel was fairly clean, Fake Out+Nature Power+Nature Power was sufficient. Still only a 3HKO on Slugma (Light Screen, Smog, Hyper Potion, Sunny Day used) which could have been ugly if it had gone for the direct Sunny Day+Overheat. And then Camel OHKOs with Sunny boosted Overheat from full, negligible damage from Nature Power. Things are going downhill quickly for this guy.



Norman

(30): Flamethrower 2HKOs Spinda while it does 30% back with Psybeam. Same thing for Vigoroth but it can 3HKO and outspeeds unlike Spinda so Slash crit is a threat. Linoone however you trade 3HKOs and it outspeeds plus Headbutt flinches and crits exist so this is losing without Potions. Slaking is losing without Potions because you get 2HKOed and don't 8HKO after Sitrus but if you come in on a Truant turn and get a free Screech you can win with one Potion. Decent matchup.

(30): Mag9+7 was a big easy 2HKO on Spinda, estimate 7+7 necessary for 2HKO. Vigoroth 2HKOed with Slash but Overheat almost stole a KO. Linoone and Slaking are no-gos. Needs to evolve.

(30): Rock Slide 3HKOs Spinda and paraflinching is effective. Vigoroth 8HKOs, you 4HKO plus paraflinch. Same thing for Linoone. Shock Wave was a 14HKO after Sitrus but Slaking could at most 4HKO with Faint Attack and between Yawn and fully paralysis it only attacked me once, worst case scenario you win with one Potion or get critted.

(30): Anything 2HKOs Spinda though Rock Tomb let's you outspeed t2 and it can't touch you. Iron Tail 2HKOs Vigoroth and it can't touch you. Same for Linoone. Iron Tail beats Slaking, defense drops make the job easier but it can't really touch you and you do reasonable damage anyway plus you have Dig for more free damage over top of that, just don't let it Counter you. Great matchup.

(30): Lombre sucks. You beat nothing unless Spinda repeatedly Teeter Dances.



Winona

(36): OHKO Swablu with Sludge Bomb, tank one Earthquake from Altaria but get outsped and cannot 2HKO past Sitrus regardless, OHKO Tropius, 2HKO Skarmory with Flamethrower fearing little, 2HKO Pelipper with Sludge Bomb fearing less. Good showing.

(36): OHKO Swablu with Rock Slide, fail to 2HKO Pelipper before it outspeeds and 2HKOs you, same with Altaria though you do 2HKO past Sitrs and so could hit and run, OHKO Skarmory and Tropius with Flamethrower. Decent overall, hit or miss performance.

(36): OHKO Swablu with Rock Slide, 2HKO Tropius (avoid Solar Beam), 2HKO Pelipper with Shock Wave, fail to 3HKO Altaria before it 3HKOs you, fail to 3HKO Skarmory before it 3HKOs you. Not so good on this one.

(36): OHKO Swablu with Rock Tomb, tank Altaria's +0 Earthquake (prioritized) and 2HKO with Rock Tomb outspeeding after the first one, same goes for Pelipper but can't take it and Altaria back to back as it will prioritize Water Gun if in killing range - note that you do outspeed before the first Rock Tomb and so avoid some of the Supersonic issues, Skarmory is a poke fight in which you win but it has Sand-Attack and so is better off avoided, outspeed and 2HKO Tropius with anything. A good matchup overall.

(36): 2HKO Swablu with Ice Beam (>.>), lose to Pelipper, OHKO Tropius, lose to Skarmory, hit Altaria heavily but lose to a +1 Aerial Ace. Lombre sucks.

 

[sumwun]

I wanted to teach return to Hariyama to improve the Drake matchup, but I had to replace my Emerald's internal battery, so I probably can't get the TM and finish my playthrough for another week.

While I'm waiting, I want to support moving Heracross to A. Yes, the Safari Zone step limit is annoying, but as Cloverleaf and Vinc mentioned, you can bypass it by turning in place or using an acro bike. Additionally, everyone's favorite fly slave conveniently comes with sweet scent. When I tried this last year, it took less than 8 minutes to find 2 Heracrosses. Heracross also starts smashing regular trainers immediately after leaving the Safari Zone, so I would argue that getting a Heracross is less annoying compared to some of what's already A tier. (especially Shroomish, which beats regular trainers but takes ridiculously long to do so)

Even if Heracross does sweep Winona, I don't think this is such an important matchup mainly because Heracross requires an acro bike to catch, and you can't use fly until after defeating Winona. To use Heracross against Winona, you'd need to trade in the (faster) mach bike on your way from Petalburg to Fortree. Something can still be A tier without being useful against Winona. At least compared to Breloom, Heracross has better special defense and speed, which often makes it easier to set up and sweep. Heracross is also not weak to ice, which is a huge asset in the late game and an important reason it does significantly better against Phoebe, Glacia, and Wallace. In my playthrough, I was able to get my level 40 male Heracross to sweep Juan without items. If Luvdisc is so annoying, then you can simply attack it and set up on Whiscash. So even if Heracross is worse than Breloom because it comes later and is harder to catch, I don't think the difference is enough to put them in different tiers.

 

[SaberSeven]

Did a quick run through of Sapphire with Heracross. Once it get rolling, it's a killing machine. Winona, you have to avoid Swellow. You can set up Bulk Ups on Pelipper and clean from there with Rock Tomb (with items of course; Aerial Ace from Pelipper still hurts). Tate & Liza was a challenge. Between Hypnosis from Lunatone, Psychic, and the RNG, it was tricky to get Heracross to work. Despite Luvdisc, Heracross powered through Wallace with +3 Bulk Ups. Sidney and Glacia are easy for Heracross to Brick Break through (Glacia especially if you let Phoebe's Banette burn you with Will-O-Wisp and you have Guts. Walrein can still live a Guts boosted Brick Break though so consider Bulking up against a Glalie). Drake...was tricky. You might need to find a way to get up to +5 with Heracross (maybe while avoiding getting hit by Shelgon's Rock Tomb) to sweep through Drake. Steven: Set up on Aggron & go to town (items likely required). Heracross for the most part did extremely well for me and I would probably advocate for it to be in A.

 

[sumwun]

Update 3 of 3. That took a while.

team vs Juan

12:09

Sceptile @ miracle seed
Level: 42
Stats: 116/88/73/110/84/119
Bashful nature
- leaf blade
- pursuit
- rock tomb
- strength

Swellow @ silk scarf
Level: 42
Stats: 115/97/62/51/55/123
Careful nature
- return
- fly
- steel wing
- endeavor

Azumarill @ Sitrus berry
Ability: huge power
Level: 44
Stats: 149/73/74/63/83/64
Mild nature
- return
- surf
- double-edge
- dig/brick break

Hariyama @ soft sand
Ability: thick fat
Level: 40
Stats: 173/124/62/36/66/54
Adamant nature
- earthquake
- bulk up
- fake out
- vital throw

Magneton @ Sitrus berry
Ability: sturdy
Level: 40
Stats: 104/64/96/112/62/75
Lax nature
- thunderbolt
- substitute
- thunder wave
- spark

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3 Pokemon on my team want my one TM31 brick break, so I've decided not to save after teaching brick break to a Pokemon. By teaching brick break, entering a battle, and soft-resetting, I should be able to test how good each Pokemon would be if it has all the TMs it wants.

Hariyama can set up on Whiscash and sweep the team.

Without Hariyama: The remaining 4 can defeat Kingdra only if a lot of hax goes my way. Sceptile and Azumarill each comfortably solo everything else.

team vs Elite 4

Sceptile @ miracle seed
Level: 45
Stats: 125/95/79/117/90/127
Bashful nature
- leaf blade
- dragon claw
- rock tomb/brick break
- strength

Swellow @ silk scarf/Sitrus berry
Level: 45
Stats: 124/104/66/55/59/132
Careful nature
- return
- fly
- steel wing
- endeavor

Azumarill @ silk scarf/Sitrus berry
Ability: huge power
Level: 46
Stats: 156/76/77/66/88/67
Mild nature
- return
- surf
- double-edge
- dig/brick break

Hariyama @ soft sand/Sitrus berry
Ability: thick fat
Level: 42
Stats: 181/129/65/39/69/57
Adamant nature
- earthquake
- bulk up
- fake out/strength
- vital throw/brick break

Magneton @ Sitrus berry
Ability: sturdy
Level: 43
Stats: 111/69/103/121/67/81
Lax nature
- thunderbolt
- substitute
- thunder wave
- spark

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Sidney
Hariyama can usually set up on Mightyena and solo. The accumulating damage from Mightyena's double-edge and Cacturne's needle arm (especially if it flinches) sometimes stops Hariyama. I expected extrasensory to be the biggest threat, as it was against Breloom in my previous playthrough, but Shiftry never used it against Hariyama.

Without Hariyama: Sceptile loses the 1v1 against Absol but can often solo the other 4.

Without Sceptile and Hariyama: Azumarill can 1v1 each of Sidney's Pokemon, but it can usually sweep around 3 of them at a time. Magneton easily wins after Azumarill takes out Sidney's grasses.

Phoebe
Magneton resists everything but earthquake, so it can solo everything but the earthquake Dusclops.

Without Magneton: Hariyama can set up on the earthquake Dusclops and sweep 3 Pokemon only after the curse Dusclops and psychic Banette are removed. A once claimed that his/her/its Hariyama survived the psychic, but I couldn't reproduce that.

Without Hariyama or Magneton: My remaining 3 can defeat the earthquake Dusclops, but that leaves them too weak to win the battle.

Glacia
Hariyama can sometimes solo after using bulk up twice against the first Sealeo, but this ultimately depends on how much hax happens when fighting the second Sealeo. The explosion Glalie never exploded for some reason.

Without Hariyama: By spamming brick break, Azumarill can often solo everyone except Walrein. Against Walrein, whether Azumarill wins depends on how many times sheer cold can miss in a row. Sceptile outspeeds and 2HKOs while Walrein OHKOs back. Magneton gets outsped and almost OHKO'd, can 2HKO back, and dies from hail damage. Sceptile and Magneton can relatively reliably win the 2v1.

Without Hariyama or Azumarill: Magneton resists ice, but its low special defense and the Glalies still give it a hard time. Sceptile and Swellow obviously have even more trouble with the Glalies.

Drake
Winning with a very underleveled team and no ice beam was difficult, but I managed it after some soft resets. First, Hariyama and Shelgon are speed tied, so getting 3 or 4 bulk ups without taking too much from dragon claw requires winning protect mind games and the speed tie. At best, Hariyama can take out Shelgon and Altaria and lose to Kingdra. Sceptile becomes useful because it outspeeds his entire team, can 1v1 Kingdra or Flygon (not both), and can weaken or revenge-kill anything by spamming dragon claw. Similarly, a weakened Swellow can waste full restores by using endeavor. Magneton was sometimes able to come in on a weakened Altaria or Kingdra, use substitute, defeat Altaria or Kingdra, and paralyze Salamence from behind the substitute. This is apparently enough to win if I get critical hits and full paralysis at just the right moments.

Drake and Wallace (second and third tries)
There was no way I could defeat Wallace on my first try without calm mind. Additionally, the clock won't let me get another TM27 return in this save file, so I'll have to finish the game with a strength Hariyama. On my second try, the first thing I realized was that I can get Phoebe's Banette to burn my Swellow. (yes I really was that dumb until now) My improved Drake strategy still relies on Hariyama for his first 2, but it now uses a Lombre intimidate fodder, Sceptile or Azumarill, and Swellow. Their combined damage is apparently enough to 2HKO Salamence. (Swellow has to revenge-kill so it stays alive and keeps its burn) Then I use whatever remaining Pokemon for Kingdra and Flygon.

Starting on my third try, I was able to defeat Wallace by first having Magneton outspeed and almost one-shot Wailord so I can substitute on the full restore and thunderbolt again on the second water spout. The second water spout won't break my substitute, so it's still up when Wallace sends in Gyarados (yes Gyarados, not Whiscash) to revenge-kill. Because the substitute is still up, I win another 1v1. Then Whiscash comes in and easily dies to Sceptile. Azumarill can usually 2HKO Milotic, and it doesn't use recover even when it's a 3HKO. Swellow and Hariyama almost one-shot Ludicolo and Tentacruel, respectively, and at the very least, they help waste full restores and make it easy for Sceptile to revenge-kill.

final team

15:09

Sceptile @ miracle seed
Level: 49
Stats: 136/105/86/128/99/138
Bashful nature
- leaf blade
- dragon claw
- rock tomb
- strength

Swellow @ silk scarf
Level: 49
Stats: 135/116/72/61/66/144
Careful nature
- return
- fly
- steel wing
- endeavor

Azumarill @ silk scarf
Ability: huge power
Level: 51
Stats: 175/88/86/72/98/74
Mild nature
- return
- surf
- double-edge
- dig

Hariyama @ soft sand
Ability: thick fat
Level: 46
Stats: 199/144/72/43/77/62
Adamant nature
- brick break
- earthquake
- bulk up
- strength

Magneton
Ability: sturdy
Level: 48
Stats: 124/82/116/135/76/90
Lax nature
- thunderbolt
- substitute
- thunder wave
- spark

Given that I used exactly 10 Pokemon since the beginning of this summer, I must have come up with a few nominations. Here they are.

Hariyama to A
This thing can solo Wattson, Flannery, Norman, Winona, Juan, Sidney, and Glacia while being slightly underleveled and not using potions (or any bag items) during battle. There's no way Breloom is a whole tier higher just because it's obtainable earlier and can clear out regular trainers more easily.

Absol to A
Discount Zangoose turned out not that much worse than the real Zangoose, even though Absol is obtainable only during the second half of the game and spends most of that second half spamming its no-STAB return. Because Absol is caught at a high level and can immediately learn strength and swords dance, it requires less experience and babying time compared to some of the early game A tier things. Its amazing physical attack, passable speed, and a moveset of return, shadow ball, and swords dance is good not only for shredding regular trainers, but lets Absol solo Winona, Tate and Liza, Juan, Sidney, and Phoebe. Absol probably can do better against Glacia and Drake if the player feeds it vitamins in a more intelligent manner.

As I said last month, I still think Heracross deserves A. The other 8 Pokemon I used can stay where they are now.

I'll go ahead and reserve Sceptile, Azumarill, and Magneton and write them sometime eventually. (hopefully during Christmas break)

One last thing I wanted to mention in this post is vitamins. In my last 2 playthroughs, I fed a bunch of carbos to Breloom and Magneton, and both had some pretty good results. It seems that the very fast Pokemon (like Sceptile) and the very slow Pokemon (like Hariyama) both benefit more from attack-raising vitamins, and the ones with medium speed want carbos the most. Does anyone know a better way to determine what vitamins work best on each Pokemon?