To clarify, Octillery is moody level 82 currently.
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Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter Annika
- Start date
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Proposing a new Mime set that takes advantage of Technician over Filter.
Mime gets Charge Beam, Icy Wind, and Magical Leaf. Confusion is still weaker than Psychic, so that remains unchanged. Nasty Plot can be kept as well. Non-Nasty Plot sets can also get scarf or specs due to the increased power and coverage, or even assault vest to partially make up for lost bulk from filter. Choice sets also get trick or healing wish. Actually, a switch over to Technician lets it use almost anything. Sash, Lefties, Vest, Choice, Orb.
Something like:
Mr. Mime @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
Icy Wind / Nasty Plot / Magical Leaf / Healing Wish
Charge Beam
Psychic
Dazzling Gleam
----------------------------
Mr. Mime @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
Charge Beam / Icy Wind / Magical Leaf
Psychic
Dazzling Gleam
Trick / Healing Wish
Mime gets Charge Beam, Icy Wind, and Magical Leaf. Confusion is still weaker than Psychic, so that remains unchanged. Nasty Plot can be kept as well. Non-Nasty Plot sets can also get scarf or specs due to the increased power and coverage, or even assault vest to partially make up for lost bulk from filter. Choice sets also get trick or healing wish. Actually, a switch over to Technician lets it use almost anything. Sash, Lefties, Vest, Choice, Orb.
Something like:
Mr. Mime @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
Icy Wind / Nasty Plot / Magical Leaf / Healing Wish
Charge Beam
Psychic
Dazzling Gleam
----------------------------
Mr. Mime @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
Charge Beam / Icy Wind / Magical Leaf
Psychic
Dazzling Gleam
Trick / Healing Wish
Random Battles doesn't have clear cut set division like that. Every Pokemon has a pool of moves, which are randomly selected from in accordance with various set generation rules. If you make a pool of (icy wind, charge beam, psychic, dazzling gleam, nasty plot, healing wish, trick), all of the following should be possible:
Psychic | Dazzling Gleam | Icy Wind | Charge Beam: Choice Scarf or Choice Specs
Nasty Plot | (three of the four attacks): Life Orb
Trick | (three of the four attacks): Choice Scarf
Healing Wish | (three of the four attacks): Choice Scarf
Trick | Healing Wish | (two of the four attacks, with at least one being a STAB): Choice Scarf
Four attacks Mime is pretty bad, so the pool should only have three attacks. If that were Psychic/DazzlingGleam/(one of Icy Wind or Charge Beam), having only one Technician-boosted attack makes Technician probably not worth it.
Unless Dazzling Gleam / Icy Wind / Charge Beam is a step above Psychic / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast, after factoring in Filter's defensive help, Mime will probably not be changed to Technician. And I don't think it is, especially with the moves still having less than 90 power, even if they do have useful secondary effects.
Psychic | Dazzling Gleam | Icy Wind | Charge Beam: Choice Scarf or Choice Specs
Nasty Plot | (three of the four attacks): Life Orb
Trick | (three of the four attacks): Choice Scarf
Healing Wish | (three of the four attacks): Choice Scarf
Trick | Healing Wish | (two of the four attacks, with at least one being a STAB): Choice Scarf
Four attacks Mime is pretty bad, so the pool should only have three attacks. If that were Psychic/DazzlingGleam/(one of Icy Wind or Charge Beam), having only one Technician-boosted attack makes Technician probably not worth it.
Unless Dazzling Gleam / Icy Wind / Charge Beam is a step above Psychic / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast, after factoring in Filter's defensive help, Mime will probably not be changed to Technician. And I don't think it is, especially with the moves still having less than 90 power, even if they do have useful secondary effects.
There is also the fact that the technician set is walled by steel types a bit too much.
It's an interesting suggestion but one that isn't enough to warrant a change
It's an interesting suggestion but one that isn't enough to warrant a change
I got Guts Life Orb Luxray, which is inferior to Guts Flame Orb Luxray in practically every way.
Life Orb increases damage by 1.3 times at the expense of 10% HP every attack.
Flame Orb w/ Guts increases damage by 1.5 times at the expense of 6.25% HP at the end of every turn.
Luxray's only non-attacking move is Agility, so even ignoring that Flame Orb is more damage, after 4 turns Life Orb will have dealt 30% recoil whilst Flame Orb would have dealt 25% "recoil". All in all, Life Orb is straight up inferior on Guts compared to Flame Orb since Luxray does not run Special attacks.
This is a bug or something that is accepted to happen but super rare. Not sure why it exists in the first place but flame orb is 100% better
Amoongus getting Stun Spore would be alright if it also didn't learn Spore, but I think simply having Stun Spore in Amoonguss' move pool means that it often overrides Spore, when Spore is objectively better in most circumstances.
Spore is also 100% accurate and inflicts a more powerful status condition (sleep clause exists for a reason). Stun Spore will miss 1/4 times and will inflict a status condition that, although is longer lasting, isn't as powerful as sleep because it not only does not affect Grass types like Spore, but also Electric types. I could go over other reasons why Sleep is a more powerful status condition than Paralysis, but there's a reason there's no Paralysis Clause.
Spore is also 100% accurate and inflicts a more powerful status condition (sleep clause exists for a reason). Stun Spore will miss 1/4 times and will inflict a status condition that, although is longer lasting, isn't as powerful as sleep because it not only does not affect Grass types like Spore, but also Electric types. I could go over other reasons why Sleep is a more powerful status condition than Paralysis, but there's a reason there's no Paralysis Clause.
Hey, this is my first post on here so just want to mention that if I mess anything up.
I got a Comfey set with Natural Cure and I believe Comfey should always have Triage. +3 priority to healing moves is so much more useful in my opinion since it also gets access to aromatherapy as well. I also believe that Comfey should opt for Draining Kiss over Dazzling Gleam. Yes, it's slightly less powerful but it has the added benefit of being +3 priority and healing 75% of the damage dealt. This also helps for revenge killing as you almost always go first. Comfey is relatively fast as is, but priority is incredibly useful and lets it ignore speed boosts from other mons. I believe it's more useful overall than Dazzling Gleam.
I got a Comfey set with Natural Cure and I believe Comfey should always have Triage. +3 priority to healing moves is so much more useful in my opinion since it also gets access to aromatherapy as well. I also believe that Comfey should opt for Draining Kiss over Dazzling Gleam. Yes, it's slightly less powerful but it has the added benefit of being +3 priority and healing 75% of the damage dealt. This also helps for revenge killing as you almost always go first. Comfey is relatively fast as is, but priority is incredibly useful and lets it ignore speed boosts from other mons. I believe it's more useful overall than Dazzling Gleam.
I talked to TI and he mentioned that this was the place to post this so here goes.
I'd like to voice my support for Team Preview (TP) RandBats in Gen 8. I'm not proposing that we just edit the current ladder format to include TP because I feel that would incredibly silly due to the entire way the games are played being changed. I'm instead Proposing that a second ladder be implemented that encompasses the current Gen 8 Ruleset but with Team Preview added. I believe that this would make a more competitive and fun format than non-TP games.
I've voiced my support in the room and was provided with a few reasons why this may not be a good idea:
[10:21:26] A Random Duck: i feel like tp would have a lot of instaforfeits esp if they see a ndm geoxern and/or zacian on the other side
While yes some players might just insta forfeit when seeing a bad matchup I feel like this will be less of a problem, especially in higher ranked battles. Additionally, this already happens in most RandBats games anyways especially with Dynamax in the equation. I don't see this as being that big of a problem since most people at team preview can identify what will beat said busted Pokemon before they just sack it and they lose late-game when said legendary is revealed.
(rough quote since I lost the message)The Immortal: Zarel mentioned that no TP is an integral part of Randbats and I don't see him changing his stance anytime soon.
Randbats is generally noted as more of a casual format for casual games. I am not proposing that we edit the current randbats ladder but instead, I suggest we implement an entirely new one. If Zarel has qualms with this that's fine since I don't do the coding and I don't own the website. This just a suggestion for a more competitive format that retains the general idea of Random Battles. If this is too much work than anyone is willing to forego than we can just drop my suggestion right now as I do not want to be a bother and create unnecessary busywork.
The Immortal: If you really want to play a format with TP just play something something Battle Factory
The difference between Battle Factory and Randbats is that Battle Factory is just playing a random tier with random Pokemon that can be viably used in that tier. While yes Battle Factory does have Team Preview and is a competitive format I don't consider it to be a pure competitive Randbats format which is what I'm trying to accomplish by adding TP.
[10:49:21] +aura luna: It helps you get better at adjusting to situations tho
Yes, Randbats with no TP does indeed help you learn how to adjust to unfavorable situations. However, Randbats with TP can help teach you how to prevent those unfavorable situations in the first place which is arguably more important.
I'd like to voice my support for Team Preview (TP) RandBats in Gen 8. I'm not proposing that we just edit the current ladder format to include TP because I feel that would incredibly silly due to the entire way the games are played being changed. I'm instead Proposing that a second ladder be implemented that encompasses the current Gen 8 Ruleset but with Team Preview added. I believe that this would make a more competitive and fun format than non-TP games.
I've voiced my support in the room and was provided with a few reasons why this may not be a good idea:
[10:21:26] A Random Duck: i feel like tp would have a lot of instaforfeits esp if they see a ndm geoxern and/or zacian on the other side
While yes some players might just insta forfeit when seeing a bad matchup I feel like this will be less of a problem, especially in higher ranked battles. Additionally, this already happens in most RandBats games anyways especially with Dynamax in the equation. I don't see this as being that big of a problem since most people at team preview can identify what will beat said busted Pokemon before they just sack it and they lose late-game when said legendary is revealed.
(rough quote since I lost the message)The Immortal: Zarel mentioned that no TP is an integral part of Randbats and I don't see him changing his stance anytime soon.
Randbats is generally noted as more of a casual format for casual games. I am not proposing that we edit the current randbats ladder but instead, I suggest we implement an entirely new one. If Zarel has qualms with this that's fine since I don't do the coding and I don't own the website. This just a suggestion for a more competitive format that retains the general idea of Random Battles. If this is too much work than anyone is willing to forego than we can just drop my suggestion right now as I do not want to be a bother and create unnecessary busywork.
The Immortal: If you really want to play a format with TP just play something something Battle Factory
The difference between Battle Factory and Randbats is that Battle Factory is just playing a random tier with random Pokemon that can be viably used in that tier. While yes Battle Factory does have Team Preview and is a competitive format I don't consider it to be a pure competitive Randbats format which is what I'm trying to accomplish by adding TP.
[10:49:21] +aura luna: It helps you get better at adjusting to situations tho
Yes, Randbats with no TP does indeed help you learn how to adjust to unfavorable situations. However, Randbats with TP can help teach you how to prevent those unfavorable situations in the first place which is arguably more important.
This is... two sets mashed together I think?
Anyway I would like Hitmonlee to not just have triple Fighting coverage pls, and Curse < Bulk Up unless White Herb Unburden :)
This is probably a bug, so I'm not sure if this is the right place... but should preferably be fixed :)
This was in unrated btw
Anyway I would like Hitmonlee to not just have triple Fighting coverage pls, and Curse < Bulk Up unless White Herb Unburden :)
This is probably a bug, so I'm not sure if this is the right place... but should preferably be fixed :)
This was in unrated btw
I'm fairly certain Speed Boost Ninjask is inferior to Infiltrator Ninjask in the vast majority of cases for several reasons.
1. Ninjask outspeeds every pokemon at +0 Speed. Amongst Pokemon that boost their Speed, I believe Haxorus is the fastest Dragon Dancer, and it STILL does not outspeed Ninjask at +1 (Haxorus: 309, Ninjask: 332) and I am fairly sure there is NO Choice Scarfer that outspeeds Ninjask since, once again, I'm pretty sure Haxorus is the fastest Choice Scarfer.
2. Infiltrator is obviously an ability that, although has a rather niche use, is definitely useful in a lot of difficult circumstances, especially since Ninjask has a Super Effective move and at least neutral coverage against most, if not all, Substitute users, and of course having a mon that can set-up on Xatu, Wigglytuff, Grimmsnarl and likely any screens user not called Alolan Ninetales is incredibly useful.
3. Speed Boost only takes effect after one full turn has passed for Ninjask, meaning it will not activate if you hard switch it in like Flame/Toxic Orb or Intimidate will. This means that even Ninjask with Speed Boost cannot outspeed any pokemon at +2 because it will obviously be OHKO'd by any Pokemon at +2 Speed before its' ability will activate. The only exception would be Metagross, which it would still lose to as it would be unable to use Night Slash against it due to the Weakness Policy.
All in all, I can't think of any situation where Speed Boost would be useful because the situation Speed Boost is obviously in for (outspeeding a boosted +2 mon) is paradoxically not possible for Ninjask to get to without Protect due to the Speed Boost mechanics. Ninjask with Infiltrator already does everything Speed Boost Ninjask does and more.
I also went and calc'd the fastest Max Airstream 'mon (which I'm pretty sure is Keldeo) and both Ninjasks lose to it.
1. Ninjask outspeeds every pokemon at +0 Speed. Amongst Pokemon that boost their Speed, I believe Haxorus is the fastest Dragon Dancer, and it STILL does not outspeed Ninjask at +1 (Haxorus: 309, Ninjask: 332) and I am fairly sure there is NO Choice Scarfer that outspeeds Ninjask since, once again, I'm pretty sure Haxorus is the fastest Choice Scarfer.
2. Infiltrator is obviously an ability that, although has a rather niche use, is definitely useful in a lot of difficult circumstances, especially since Ninjask has a Super Effective move and at least neutral coverage against most, if not all, Substitute users, and of course having a mon that can set-up on Xatu, Wigglytuff, Grimmsnarl and likely any screens user not called Alolan Ninetales is incredibly useful.
3. Speed Boost only takes effect after one full turn has passed for Ninjask, meaning it will not activate if you hard switch it in like Flame/Toxic Orb or Intimidate will. This means that even Ninjask with Speed Boost cannot outspeed any pokemon at +2 because it will obviously be OHKO'd by any Pokemon at +2 Speed before its' ability will activate. The only exception would be Metagross, which it would still lose to as it would be unable to use Night Slash against it due to the Weakness Policy.
All in all, I can't think of any situation where Speed Boost would be useful because the situation Speed Boost is obviously in for (outspeeding a boosted +2 mon) is paradoxically not possible for Ninjask to get to without Protect due to the Speed Boost mechanics. Ninjask with Infiltrator already does everything Speed Boost Ninjask does and more.
I also went and calc'd the fastest Max Airstream 'mon (which I'm pretty sure is Keldeo) and both Ninjasks lose to it.
Just for future reference, triage doesnt affect aromatherapy
Imma be honest, I think this sounds like an interesting idea to implement and quite curious how it would work.
I still see the flaws in it though like the many forfeits. Some people battle for fun and just want to battle and people forfeiting all the time is gonna bum people out. Like refer to this situation because I know it will happen a lot:
You are battling and after a few pokemon are left, your opponent sees that he has no chance to actually win then forfeits quite early. Now without Team preview, that guy may not know if he can win or not and continues to play on. It could give false hope but at least battles are more played out.
If what TI says about Zarel is true then this entire discussion is pointless anyway but I'm curious about it.
Manectric. But I agree with this. TI has in mind that dmax max guard would make it able to make it outspeed threats, or at least I think this was his thought process. In reality though I think this situation wouldn't happen often. I agree with the post for this particular case.
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If Manectric has 100% Ninjask needs a critical Night Slash at +2 to OHKO it, meaning Manectric will always get a hit off. If both dynamax, then Manectric will likely OHKO it, as it is unlikely Ninjask would be at +2 and completely full HP. It would definitely beat Manectric if dynamax is used though and it is at full HP.
Lvl 88 84 SpA Manectric Max Lightning vs. Lvl 88 84 HP / 84 SpD Dynamax Ninjask: 390-458 (77.6 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Waaaait they removed Night Slash off of a set up mon? What's it supposed to do to Steel types now?
It is because resisted acrobatics is still stronger than neutral night slash and stronger than night slash if acrobatics is neutral and night slash is super effective. The only time it might be used is for doublade/aegislash and a few other mons. Uturn would be better to get momentum and even for SD U-turn damage without fainting then coming back in.
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We try to not make sets that depend on dynamax to really be effective.
I got a Shiftry without Heat Wave, so it had Early Bird. I know sets shouldn't depend on dynamax, but I really fail to see how Early Bird is better than Chlorophyll, considering it's immune to both spore and sleep powder. This means it can only be put asleep with Hypnosis (which has very low accuracy and is only used by A-Persian and Politoed) or Yawn (which can be played around and is only used by Umbreon, Accelgor, Uxie, Relicanth and Meowstic). Or, I guess, G-Max Snooze... Amongst those,
- A-Persian isn't exactly the best matchup against Shiftry and
- - - - - If it has life orb + power gem, it needs one nasty plot to 2HKO a fully healthy shiftry
- - - - - If it has life orb without power gem, it needs two nasty plots to 2HKO, or one NP + flinch hax or storm miss to take out Shiftry without dying
- - - - - If it doesn't have life orb, it needs 2 nasty plots to 2hko Shiftry, or 1 to 3hko (assuming no crit)
- Politoed dies to unboosted life orb leaf storm iirc
- Umbreon can obviously tank Shiftry, unless
- - - - - Shiftry is +3, dynamaxes and uses Max Overgrowth or;
- - - - - Shiftry is +2 and grassy terrain has been set up
- There's no reason to use Yawn over Bug Buzz with Accelgor against Shiftry, except if Shiftry is fully healthy, has sash and is going to/has set up sun
- Uxie is tanky and is probably the most viable user of yawn against Shiftry, since it can lure a NP and then u-turn to gain momentum
- Relicanth, yeah, I don't think it's going to be what you'll want to use against a Shiftry... unless Shiftry is -2 and sandstorm is up... I guess
- Meowstic has prankster and can't use Yawn on Shiftry
- With G-Max Grimmsnarl, Shiftry can survive an unboosted Max Starfall if it dynamaxes itself, so G-Max Snooze can be used to (hopefully, since it's not 100%) put a stop to a set up Dynamaxed Shiftry. That's a last resort move to make if you have absolutely nothing else that could stop it even if you dynamax (since G-Max Grimmsnarl is going to die in 2-turns to a +2 shiftry, or even one turn if grassy terrain is up).
So, basically, there are like 2 Pokémon that are viable Yawn users against Shiftry (Umbreon and Uxie). On the other hand, even if it doesn't get heat wave (which results in it getting chlorophyll due to the possibilities with Dynamax), there are 3 sun setters in the meta (Ninetales, Groudon, Torkoal), and there's always the possibility that sun gets set up via another Pokémon dynamaxing. Knowing you have a chlorophyll pokémon can make an opponent think twice before using max flare (assuming shiftry is a threat to its team in the sun even without heat wave).
Anyway, that might just be me. It certainly isn't a rant that stems from losing a Shiftry/Cinderace dynamax match-up because of no chloro.
- A-Persian isn't exactly the best matchup against Shiftry and
- - - - - If it has life orb + power gem, it needs one nasty plot to 2HKO a fully healthy shiftry
- - - - - If it has life orb without power gem, it needs two nasty plots to 2HKO, or one NP + flinch hax or storm miss to take out Shiftry without dying
- - - - - If it doesn't have life orb, it needs 2 nasty plots to 2hko Shiftry, or 1 to 3hko (assuming no crit)
- Politoed dies to unboosted life orb leaf storm iirc
- Umbreon can obviously tank Shiftry, unless
- - - - - Shiftry is +3, dynamaxes and uses Max Overgrowth or;
- - - - - Shiftry is +2 and grassy terrain has been set up
- There's no reason to use Yawn over Bug Buzz with Accelgor against Shiftry, except if Shiftry is fully healthy, has sash and is going to/has set up sun
- Uxie is tanky and is probably the most viable user of yawn against Shiftry, since it can lure a NP and then u-turn to gain momentum
- Relicanth, yeah, I don't think it's going to be what you'll want to use against a Shiftry... unless Shiftry is -2 and sandstorm is up... I guess
- Meowstic has prankster and can't use Yawn on Shiftry
- With G-Max Grimmsnarl, Shiftry can survive an unboosted Max Starfall if it dynamaxes itself, so G-Max Snooze can be used to (hopefully, since it's not 100%) put a stop to a set up Dynamaxed Shiftry. That's a last resort move to make if you have absolutely nothing else that could stop it even if you dynamax (since G-Max Grimmsnarl is going to die in 2-turns to a +2 shiftry, or even one turn if grassy terrain is up).
So, basically, there are like 2 Pokémon that are viable Yawn users against Shiftry (Umbreon and Uxie). On the other hand, even if it doesn't get heat wave (which results in it getting chlorophyll due to the possibilities with Dynamax), there are 3 sun setters in the meta (Ninetales, Groudon, Torkoal), and there's always the possibility that sun gets set up via another Pokémon dynamaxing. Knowing you have a chlorophyll pokémon can make an opponent think twice before using max flare (assuming shiftry is a threat to its team in the sun even without heat wave).
Anyway, that might just be me. It certainly isn't a rant that stems from losing a Shiftry/Cinderace dynamax match-up because of no chloro.
After thinking about it for a bit, I believe that Team Preview would exacerbate unfavorable matchups. Knowing that your [insert mon here] just wins from Preview isn't the most competitive, or enjoyable from the opponent's perspective. Random Battle is meant to be fun, for the most part. And teams are mostly random, unlike let's say Battle Factory where you might actually roll teams with some semblance of synergy and not auto-lose on Team Preview. This wouldn't be a rare occurrence either. If you think about games you've played, or going forward take notice of how "if you knew what Pokemon your opponent had, you would have saved [insert mon here] to sweep" you'd realize that Team Preview is ultimately a terrible idea for a format like this.
I can also add that I win way more with Team Preview on. Might sound like a good thing but it does take away the skill to predict well and I'd rather not have the burden of mindgames like in tiers.
I really think Refrigerate Aurorus is just inferior to Snow Warning. Not only does Blizzard do more damage than Refrigerate Hyper Voice, but there is also the hail chip damage which is an extra 6% true damage and also the 1/10 chance to Freeze. The one advantage Refrigerate has over Blizzard is that it is a Sound move so it goes through Substitutes, but this is a very niche use when you consider Snow Warning is always useful, compared to Refrigerate being only useful sometimes.
I think Refrigerate should be removed as a possible ability for the same reason Arctovish doesn't get Slush Rush: It relies on an element that is rare enough to come by that the alternative ability is just more useful.
I think Refrigerate should be removed as a possible ability for the same reason Arctovish doesn't get Slush Rush: It relies on an element that is rare enough to come by that the alternative ability is just more useful.
I also agree with this. I have won many battles against an opponent with a 'mon that counters my whole team because they sacked it off without knowing that my team has such a bad match up against it. Team Preview would also tilt battles in favour of consecutive turns of just switch prediction fests, making battles last longer. In battles where both my opponent and I have been forced to reveal the vast majority of our team early on, it has just devolved into constant switching without attacking in an effort to try to get into an advantage state. This would also make entry hazards stronger than they already are. One of the reasons VGC is in a Doubles format is because at the highest levels of play in Singles, battles take a hideously long time due to all the switching mindgames.
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