Poll for our default simulator tiering level

What should our default XY tiering level be?

  • Level 50

    Votes: 247 38.6%
  • Level 100

    Votes: 393 61.4%

  • Total voters
    640
Status
Not open for further replies.
If people come to Smogon for help with a non-Smogon metagame, they came to the wrong place. We don't need to change the way we play our metagames to accommodate for people who play don't even play with our metagames and simulators to begin with.
Actually, I remember Smogon's UNIVERSITY's (important word here) ENTIRE purpose was to help new players into competitive Pokemon gaming. The name seems redundant now....

"Smogon is the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling. We offer articles and advice via our community forums to help fans of the game compete at every level, while honing their skills in every aspect of competitive Pokémon from team building to battling tactics."

Right at the beginning of the About page, it is not very comprehensive anymore, nor is it catering to fans of pokemon, just to their own people. It is also NOT helping in EVERY aspect of competitive battling.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Yup, and now the divide is even bigger, to the extent, the Smogon meta-game and website is becoming semi-worthless to anyone who actually plays outside the simulator and/or the smogon forums. You can say that all you want but realise new players who come here, actually come here for help with the actual game, not you own meta. It would also be a good idea to change the websites slogan and about page, since they are SLOWLY starting to cater only to those who follow the Smogon rules and Meta, and not to the casual player who came here for help to ask about how to beat his friend in Wi-fi.

It is one thing to have a banlist (uber tier) and a standard set of common courtesy rules (evasion and sleep clause for example) but having a COMPLETELY different set-up to what the game is going toward seems sort going against the purpose of balancing the game in the first place.
Iunno what pot you're smoking man, but if you could please lend me some of that shit...

Look at competitive brawl if you must. Granted, Brawl competitive is a minor joke, but some people do take it seriously. No one followed the rules that Nintendo allowed with regular Smash Bros. games. Hell, we have barely followed the VGC rules and Smogon has far from being close to "dead". Many other websites have tried to branch off as dominant VGC communities and weren't very successful at it. Remember Wishmkr? I love Blue Kirby and co to death, but even Nugget Bridge has a limited community. I'm not even trying to bash them purposely either since I miss Synre (where art thou Sagnasty buddy?), but even VGC still has a limited community even in comparison to our competitive singles metagame.

And if we seriously want to argue what the game is going towards - why haven't we adapted towards anything like Triples and Rotation? Hell, why hasn't VGC? They've already broken their own form of rules if that's what you think dictates creating a metagame.

I'm just saying your logic has a lot of broken parts to it.
 
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Jaiho

bandy legged troll
I still think the OP needs to be redone, or at least edited to eliminate the bias. Many voters are STILL not understanding that it IS possible to have level 100 battles, unlike the OP is saying that the auto-50 is set in stone. Local matches (what I feel should be emulated) can have level 100 battles. Wifi battles with friends and acquaintances on the PSS are not set to 50 either. It is only the completely random match ups that have auto-50 rules, and if I'm not mistaken, that isn't even 6v6.

Also, for all those saying that the pro-100 side is all traditionalists, that is completely untrue. This isn't a situation where it would be far easier for everyone if auto-50 was on. It would actually be far harder. EVing is nowhere near as simple, the basic understanding of speed tiers are gone, and we are inherently buffing offense when Gamefreak itself tried to reverse the power creep. Also, I am fairly certain that many competitive wifi-battlers used a nifty program called the Smogon Wifi Battle Finder, which gives your potential opponent your friend code, meaning you could turn auto-50 off if you so desired. Getting Battle Spot matches (the random ones with auto-50) are not exactly the right place to find good, competitive battles...
 
Iunno what pot you're smoking man, but if you could please lend me some of that shit...

Look at competitive brawl if you must. Granted, Brawl competitive is a minor joke, but some people do take it seriously. No one followed the rules that Nintendo allowed with regular Smash Bros. games. Hell, we have barely followed the VGC rules.

And if we seriously want to argue what the game is going towards - why haven't we adapted towards anything like Triples and Rotation? Hell, why hasn't VGC? They've already broken their own form of rules if that's what you think dictates creating a metagame.

I'm just saying your logic has a lot of broken parts to it.
yup, it is a bit of a joke and no one with any sense actually bothers with it. you are VERY correct on that. The only thing most brawlers with sense do is ban Meta knight.
 
If people come to Smogon for help with a non-Smogon metagame, they came to the wrong place. We don't need to change the way we play our metagames to accommodate for people who play don't even play with our metagames and simulators to begin with.
Then were can we go? Smogon is the the only in-depth competitive battling guide I've seen, and other sites tend to use the same meta-games, as far as I know.
 
Actually, I remember Smogon's UNIVERSITY's (important word here) ENTIRE purpose was to help new players into competitive Pokemon gaming. The name seems redundant now....
OUR competitive metagame. OUR definition of what is balanced. Ubers, OU, UU, RU, NU, the 3 BL, suspect tests, clauses, everything that we created to balance this game. Thats what smogon is, a fancommunity dedicated to balance a videogame under a different mindset than the original devs. Nothing more and nothing less. If people prefer the devs rules than they came to the wrong place. The only thing we must simulate correctly are the mechanics and nothing else.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Then were can we go? Smogon is the the only in-depth competitive battling guide I've seen, and other sites tend to use the same meta-games, as far as I know.
Smogon has sub forums for official nintendo formats. That doesn't mean it has to be our official metagame though.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I mean, let's look at this realistically, okay?

Let's say you want to seriously adapt to Level 50.

Why not just go all the way and say "let's just adapt to VGC then?"

I'm actually dead serious on this.

I doubt many people really have taken that much of interest of Level 50 singles to begin with, and if people are that pedantic about shifting closer to Nintendo's metagame, we might as well just follow through with it. And, of course, I disagree on doing so. I'm okay with VGC's existence obviously, but singles has always been the core of Pokemon since the beginning of time and many people prefer to play singles anyway.

I don't object to Doubles / VGC format. Hell, I don't even object to Rotation. I wish it was more popular - Rotation Battles are fun as hell.

On the other hand:
yup, it is a bit of a joke and no one with any sense actually bothers with it. you are VERY correct on that. The only thing most brawlers with sense do is ban Meta knight.
I'll take this as you conceding to my point then.
 

Metal Sonic

Resurgence
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Because they are two different metagames catering to two different communities of players. Nintendo does not constantly adjust their banlist to rid their metagames of broken threats. They just come up with a general banlist based on certain criteria (mainly the legendary status of the Pokemon and whether it is obtainable yet or not) and leave it that way.
Now notice that XY is already a very different metagame anyway. What's with your example of Landorus-T countering Terrakion: that's a BW example in the BW metagame. It doesn't even hold water when you consider new threats, checks, counters, et cetera in XY. If you change the metagame at the start and set it in stone, you will not feel the difference because that is how it is.

We're not changing from LV 100 to 50 in the middle of the XY metagame. We're not introducing a power creep: there won't be a creep if there isn't anything to base it off in the first place.

What is this argument about new speed tiers? This is XY, not BW, of course there are going to be new speed tiers; regardless of Level 50 or 100.

Therefore, Reducing levels from 100 to 50 won't actually hurt the (as-of-yet nonexistent)metagame, and I feel that your arguments of "power creep" and "new speed tiers" are fallacious.
 
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OUR competitive metagame. OUR definition of what is balanced. Ubers, OU, UU, RU, NU, the 3 BL, suspect tests, clauses, everything that we created to balance this game. Thats what smogon is, a fancommunity dedicated to balance a videogame under a different mindset than the original devs. Nothing more and nothing less. If people prefer the devs rules than they came to the wrong place. The only thing we must simulate correctly are the mechanics and nothing else.
That is NOT what the about page says, nor was it ever the original intent as far as i know. Maybe I am wrong, but i am pretty sure the original intent was to make a set of rules to help with a structure for the metagame, because, at the time, there was no structure from Nintendo besides setting up the basic clauses like sleep and species clause.
 
Did the way that traditional wifi change from gen 5 to 6? If not then why change what isn't broken? going by the numbers it seems that most competitive guys work on the simulators anyway. I think op may be confusing nintendo metagames with traditional friend code wifi where you choose if you want L100 or L50. Correct me if I am wrong though.
 
Actually, I remember Smogon's UNIVERSITY's (important word here) ENTIRE purpose was to help new players into competitive Pokemon gaming. The name seems redundant now....

"Smogon is the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling. We offer articles and advice via our community forums to help fans of the game compete at every level, while honing their skills in every aspect of competitive Pokémon from team building to battling tactics."

Right at the beginning of the About page, it is not very comprehensive anymore, nor is it catering to fans of pokemon, just to their own people. It is also NOT helping in EVERY aspect of competitive battling.
Then were can we go? Smogon is the the only in-depth competitive battling guide I've seen, and other sites tend to use the same meta-games, as far as I know.
You can probably get help with anything by asking the right people, but every decision we make here is based around our own metagames. Smogon is the most in-depth competitive site out there, and while other have their own tiers, they end up very similar to ours more often than not because we have such an in-depth testing process for every decision we make. If you come here looking for competitive advice but you don't have Smogon's tiers in mind, then what system are you using? One you made up? Because Nintendo's ruleset is not that of a competitive metagame, if that's what you're thinking.

But both of you are missing the point. We have no obligation to change our metagame for people who have no interest in playing our tiers in the first place.

Now notice that XY is already a very different metagame anyway. What's with your example of Landorus-T countering Terrakion: that's a BW example in the BW metagame. It doesn't even hold water when you consider new threats, checks, counters, et cetera in XY. If you change the metagame at the start and set it in stone, you will not feel the difference because that is how it is.
I wish I didn't have to keep saying this, but stop focusing so much on the particulars of my examples. You get so carried away with the examples that you miss the underlying point. Compared to level 100, Pokemon at level 50 will have to invest even more in bulk just so that they can keep checking the things they used to check, which weakens their overall potential since it takes investment away from other areas.

We're not changing from LV 100 to 50 in the middle of the XY metagame. We're not introducing a power creep: there won't be a creep if there isn't anything to base it off in the first place.
That's like saying starting the generation with all Ubers unbanned isn't a power creep because you started that way. Of course it isn't a power creep from the beginning if that was the beginning, but it is a power creep from the status quo. The status quo right now is level 100, and changing that to level 50 does introduce a power creep that was not there to begin with.

Therefore, Reducing levels from 100 to 50 won't actually hurt the metagame, and I feel that your arguments of "power creep" and "new speed tiers" are fallacious.
Push aside the arguments about the power creep and such if you want, but they still exist. Meanwhile, I've seen no reason as to why we should drop to level 50 besides adhering to some Wi-Fi rule that's optional to begin with.
 
is it really too much effort to take a few extra hours to train something to level 100? it is soooo easy once you get to postgame this generation. You have O powers lucky egg and the overpowered experience share. Also breeding and EV training are easier than ever as well. you can breed a quint flawless pokemon in like 2 hours. I dont see the purpose of having to make the shift to save a few hours time. I believe move power will be different as well speed tiers. I have 2 jobs and go to school full time and can still get something to level 100 in a couple days
 

Metal Sonic

Resurgence
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
That's like saying starting the generation with all Ubers unbanned isn't a power creep because you started that way. Of course it isn't a power creep from the beginning if that was the beginning, but it is a power creep from the status quo. The status quo right now is level 100, and changing that to level 50 does introduce a power creep that was not there to begin with.
The generation does start with all Ubers unbanned lol. Same for Mega Pokemon. But they do auto-shove Pokemon with BST 670> into Ubers, then unban them if deemed unbroken(see: Kyurem-B in BW). What better time to introduce a Level- tiering change than the start of a new metagame?




Push aside the arguments about the power creep and such if you want, but they still exist. Meanwhile, I've seen no reason as to why we should drop to level 50 besides adhering to some Wi-Fi rule that's optional to begin with.
It's a convenience to those who want to use the auto-level feature of the carts
 
A lot of stuff
The explain the stuff on the about page, about it being a place for all competitive battlers (like it or not, Nintendo and all world tournaments follow their own rules and their rules are nothing like many of Smogon's, also Ironic because IMO i see more diversity and strategy there than i do here by a long shot), about being able to help at all levels of play, and as the really ONLY place for any help in regards to in-depths Competitive battling it seems like Smogon is ignoring what it's own mission statement.
 
Disclaimer: I didn't read through 14 pages of theoretical nonsense, so forgive me if I missed an important argument.

Like the OP, I firmly believe that level 50 should be the new standard. Aldaron did a pretty good job in the OP, but let me state my feelings on the issue.
  • Level 50 bridges the age-long gap between Wi-Fi and simulator players. There's been this split between the actual cartridge players and simulator players ever since Generation IV. We can go on and on about what a simulator should do and so forth, or we could eliminate all of these silly and tedious arguments by trying to bridge the gap between the two. To do this, we should stop focusing so much on unofficial fan-made simulators that don't even 100% accurately represent the game engine, and focus on the concerns of people playing the actual games. There's no reason for Wi-Fi players to spend literally hours grinding their Pokemon to level 100 when it hardly affects simulator players either way.
  • Level 50 encourages the playerbase to grow. Game Freak did an excellent job removing some of the barriers to entry: breeding perfect Pokemon has never been easier, and EV training is a breeze due to hordes and Super Training. However, it seems like the majority of people on this thread want to keep up one of the archaic barriers to entry by forcing people to use level 100 Pokemon. Newsflash: People have lives outside of Pokemon. Why should they go through the hassle of breeding perfect Pokemon, getting the right movesets, EV training their Pokemon, and so forth, then level them all the way up to level 100 when there's a convenient auto-level 50 option? Because some people on an Internet forum who just play unofficial simulators are too stubborn to change? That's pathetic. By setting auto-level 50 battles, the task won't seem as daunting, and we can get some fresh blood into the game.
  • Level 50 will help Smogon become less insular. Smogon has a horrible reputation, and one of the reasons is because the Smogon playerbase has become so insular. On this thread alone, I've seen plenty of (bad) arguments about, "Who cares about Game Freak/Nintendo's official formats, we have our own!" Let me turn this around: Who cares about what Smogon thinks? Why should a fan format take place over an official format? The rules Smogon uses today - level 100, etc. - were largely rooted in a time where there was no official ruleset. Times have changed, and GF/TPCi/Nintendo are clearly trying to cater to the competitive playerbase. However, Smogon largely sticks to its old ruleset, refusing to change. This, in turn, causes the competitive playerbase to become fractured between Smogon rules and official rules. The competitive landscape is different, so why does Smogon refuse to change as well? By simply enforcing level 50 rules, it will cause people on the fence to think, "Hey, Smogon actually changed, maybe these guys aren't so bad after all."
  • Level 50 is no less "pure" than level 100 battling. One of the many bad arguments I've seen is, "Level 50 Pokemon aren't at their peak potential!" To which I say: Who cares? It doesn't make the game any less skilled; there are slight variances in EV spreads and damage calculations, and you have to memorize new numbers, but that's it. The core system doesn't change; it's just largely the same old Pokemon once you get used to it.
So in short: Level 50 is hardly different from level 100 once you get used to it, and it will help the competitive community to become less fractured and grow. We could spend all of our time going back and forth arguing over minutiae because some people refuse to realize that the world doesn't revolve around simulators, or we could just eliminate all of these arguments by setting battles to level 50. Sure, some people will complain, but that will happen no matter what.

It's 2013, Smogon. Get with the times and look outside of your own echo chamber.
 
I've done some calculations comparing lv.100 to lv.50 matchups with common checks and counters, and the results are surprising.

(lv.100) 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 147-174 (36.38 - 43.06%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 77-91 (37.19 - 43.96%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 32.15% chance to 3HKO
(lv.50) 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 75-88 (34.88 - 40.93%) -- 68.12% chance to 3HKO

(lv.100) 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53.09%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
(lv.50) 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 100-118 (46.51 - 54.88%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO

(lv.100) +2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 148-175 (39.57 - 46.79%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(lv.50) +2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 78-92 (40.62 - 47.91%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(lv.100) 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 156-184 (45.48 - 53.64%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO
(lv.50) 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 82-97 (46.59 - 55.11%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO

(lv.100) 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mega-Mawile: 246-290 (80.92 - 95.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(lv.50) 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mega-Mawile: 130-154 (82.8 - 98.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(lv.100) 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 134-160 (38.06 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(lv.50) 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 71-86 (39.22 - 47.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(lv.100) +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (46.78 - 55.96%) -- 23.83% chance to 2HKO
(lv.5) +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 82-97 (48.8 - 57.73%) -- 55.86% chance to 2HKO

(lv.100) 252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 98-116 (29.6 - 35.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 51-61 (30 - 35.88%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 113-133 (43.29 - 50.95%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 58-69 (42.96 - 51.11%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (strangely a lower chance)

(lv.100) 252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 107-127 (33.12 - 39.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 56-66 (33.73 - 39.75%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 148-175 (39.57 - 46.79%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 78-92 (40.62 - 47.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 117-139 (28.96 - 34.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 62-74 (29.95 - 35.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 106-125 (26.23 - 30.94%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 55-67 (26.57 - 32.36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 115-137 (31.59 - 37.63%) -- 97.66% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 62-74 (33.15 - 39.57%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 185-218 (45.9 - 54.09%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO
(lv.50) 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 97-114 (47.08 - 55.33%) -- 74.61% chance to 2HKO (these don't take into account the SAtk drop)

(lv.100) 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Mega-Mawile: 117-138 (38.48 - 45.39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Mega-Mawile: 61-73 (38.85 - 46.49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-376 (76.19 - 89.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 168-199 (78.13 - 92.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


(lv.100) 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.38 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 93-111 (43.25 - 51.62%) -- 10.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 96+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 120-142 (34.09 - 40.34%) -- 80.69% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) 96+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 63-75 (34.8 - 41.43%) -- 95.24% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (CB sets are a 2HKO in both cases)

(lv.100) -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.84 - 45.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(lv.50) -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 78-93 (40 - 47.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(lv.100) -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.84 - 45.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(lv.50) -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 78-93 (40 - 47.69%) -- 5.47% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(lv.100) 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.52 - 52.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(lv.50) 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 99-117 (46.04 - 54.41%) -- 5.86% chance to 2HKO


It seems that, for the majority of cases, the difference in damage output is quite small and most of the time, safe checks remain safe. Some outliers that stand out are Terrakion vs. Hippowdon, Metagross vs. Hippowdon and Dragonite vs. Azumarill, all of which now have a small chance to 2HKO instead of 3HKO. In some other cases, such as Garchomp vs. Togekiss, extremely likely 2HKOs become guaranteed at lv.50. I still predict though, that going by risk-vs-reward an average player wouldn't take a 5% at most chance of staying in anyway; while the chance exists, it's a big gamble to take advantage of it. Much bigger are the cases of Gengar vs. Scizor and Gyarados vs. Skarmory, who is now 30% more likely to be 2HKO'd, making these checks much shakier. Still, in both cases, the chances of danger are already quite significant. Notice that several of these 2HKO chances rely on stealth rock, which are less easy to keep up thanks to Defog.

Overall, my impression is that lv.50 wouldn't be as radically different a metagame as lv.100, with only a few deviations in counters and checks. At any rate, players can easily adapt lv.100 standard sets to use in lv.50 Wi-Fi with a few adjustments in EVs in most cases.
 
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This is a horrible OP. I cannot believe a site like smogon which usually tries to at least put two sides of an argument would put up a horribly misinformed OP that does not give you any of the proper facts.

Level 100 is still possible over WiFi.

There is nothing- NOTHING- saying that "Level 50 will bridge the gap from WiFi to Simulator." And why is this? It's because Level 50 is not the default in Wifi. It is an option. In fact, it is ONLY an option inside Random battles. Local Battles, Link battles, All of these are done at Level 100.

There has been no reason given why we should change to Level 50 except for the fact that random battles are now conducted at level 50. But all other forms of multiplayer pokemon battling can be done at level 100. So could smogon's mods kindly explain why they want to change to level 50 so much that they would put up such a misinformed, wrong, and factless OP?
 
What is really stopping wifi players from just having the option to do a lv 50 metagame? I say if two players want to do L50 then they could do it... Otherwise on simulators keep it at 100. Besides... Some common movesets need multiple games and trades to get to your team... doing those trades across multiple games cost real money and takes alot of time that most people on here don't have. Also Action replay isn't a bad thing as it saves money and time in the long run. But I understand the people that don't like using AR and want to keep it pure.
 
It's a convenience to those who want to use the auto-level feature of the carts
Its also an incovenience for those that dont. Hence the idea of simply making a separate ladder for it. (which is what we should actually be discussing)

Disclaimer: I didn't read through 14 pages of theoretical nonsense, so forgive me if I missed an important argument.

Like the OP, I firmly believe that level 50 should be the new standard. Aldaron did a pretty good job in the OP, but let me state my feelings on the issue.
  • Level 50 bridges the age-long gap between Wi-Fi and simulator players. There's been this split between the actual cartridge players and simulator players ever since Generation IV. We can go on and on about what a simulator should do and so forth, or we could eliminate all of these silly and tedious arguments by trying to bridge the gap between the two. To do this, we should stop focusing so much on unofficial fan-made simulators that don't even 100% accurately represent the game engine, and focus on the concerns of people playing the actual games. There's no reason for Wi-Fi players to spend literally hours grinding their Pokemon to level 100 when it hardly affects simulator players either way.
  • Level 50 encourages the playerbase to grow. Game Freak did an excellent job removing some of the barriers to entry: breeding perfect Pokemon has never been easier, and EV training is a breeze due to hordes and Super Training. However, it seems like the majority of people on this thread want to keep up one of the archaic barriers to entry by forcing people to use level 100 Pokemon. Newsflash: People have lives outside of Pokemon. Why should they go through the hassle of breeding perfect Pokemon, getting the right movesets, EV training their Pokemon, and so forth, then level them all the way up to level 100 when there's a convenient auto-level 50 option? Because some people on an Internet forum who just play unofficial simulators are too stubborn to change? That's pathetic. By setting auto-level 50 battles, the task won't seem as daunting, and we can get some fresh blood into the game.
  • Level 50 will help Smogon become less insular. Smogon has a horrible reputation, and one of the reasons is because the Smogon playerbase has become so insular. On this thread alone, I've seen plenty of (bad) arguments about, "Who cares about Game Freak/Nintendo's official formats, we have our own!" Let me turn this around: Who cares about what Smogon thinks? Why should a fan format take place over an official format? The rules Smogon uses today - level 100, etc. - were largely rooted in a time where there was no official ruleset. Times have changed, and GF/TPCi/Nintendo are clearly trying to cater to the competitive playerbase. However, Smogon largely sticks to its old ruleset, refusing to change. This, in turn, causes the competitive playerbase to become fractured between Smogon rules and official rules. The competitive landscape is different, so why does Smogon refuse to change as well? By simply enforcing level 50 rules, it will cause people on the fence to think, "Hey, Smogon actually changed, maybe these guys aren't so bad after all."
  • Level 50 is no less "pure" than level 100 battling. One of the many bad arguments I've seen is, "Level 50 Pokemon aren't at their peak potential!" To which I say: Who cares? It doesn't make the game any less skilled; there are slight variances in EV spreads and damage calculations, and you have to memorize new numbers, but that's it. The core system doesn't change; it's just largely the same old Pokemon once you get used to it.
So in short: Level 50 is hardly different from level 100 once you get used to it, and it will help the competitive community to become less fractured and grow. We could spend all of our time going back and forth arguing over minutiae because some people refuse to realize that the world doesn't revolve around simulators, or we could just eliminate all of these arguments by setting battles to level 50. Sure, some people will complain, but that will happen no matter what.

It's 2013, Smogon. Get with the times and look outside of your own echo chamber.
Did you knew that this is a fancommunity? Did you knew that the reason we still have our own sim is because we do NOT agree with nintendo's rules?
Also this gem:
''Who cares about what Smogon thinks?'' Are you absolutely insane or just blind. This is the SMOGON COMMUNITY, with SMOGON RULES, we exist because we DISAGREE with the devs rules. If YOU or anyone else dont like OUR metagame then wth are you doing here to begin with ?_?

It's 2013, Smogon. Get with the times and look outside of your own echo chamber.
How about you get off your horse and learn your facts straight. This post was downright insulting to this community and everything it stands for, specially from someone that clearly has no idea what he/she is talking about.
 
What is really stopping wifi players from just having the option to do a lv 50 metagame? I say if two players want to do L50 then they could do it... Otherwise on simulators keep it at 100. Besides... Some common movesets need multiple games and trades to get to your team... doing those trades across multiple games cost real money and takes alot of time that most people on here don't have. Also Action replay isn't a bad thing as it saves money and time in the long run. But I understand the people that don't like using AR and want to keep it pure.
There is also the fact, GF has been trying their best to make the AR useless and this time it looks as if they have finally succeeded in making a console nearly unhackable.
 

Metal Sonic

Resurgence
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Its also an incovenience for those that dont. Hence the idea of simply making a separate ladder for it. (which is what we should actually be discussing)
It's a bigger inconvenience for those managing the ladder, making the analyses, the programmers, and multiple other parties to make separate ladders.

Are you genuinely interested in playing a part in improving the Smogon metagame for months to come or do you just want to win?
 
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