Rayquaza Revamp (0/3)

[polop]

Overheat no longer exists in the analysis (lol). Adamant is now the primary slash.

Lastly, like Shrang I agree this should probably be a Rayquaza revamp instead of simply a set. Scarf Rayquaza could probably work so I'd recommend you to test it out and get some logs. I'd test it out myself but I barely get to get get on Smogon nowadays. Also include some calcs as they will show the devastating power of CB Rayquaza.

I'll type up a scarf set? (derp?) Has V-Create even been released yet on PO? I'll make a theorymon set for now and add some calcs into AC.

Also if this is a revamp, should I get all the old sets and put them in too?

 

[shrang]

Overheat no longer exists in the analysis (lol). Adamant is now the primary slash.



I'll type up a scarf set? (derp?) Has V-Create even been released yet on PO? I'll make a theorymon set for now and add some calcs into AC.

Also if this is a revamp, should I get all the old sets and put them in too?

Yes. If you think a set does not require changing (DD Ray, IMO), then just post it and make a note that nothing's changing. Also, I've talked to bojangles about this and I'm not sure if he wants you to revamp it (don't take it personally, he said he may want someone more experienced to do this revamp). I suggest talking to him about this.

Anyway, if he does give you the green light on this, I'd suggest the following:

- DD set stays put, maybe mention V-Create in AC.
- Make V-Create the main (or only?) slash on the SD for the final slot. Remove the Waterfall slash.
- Mixed set: Not too sure how to do this, need other QC input. Maybe replace Outrage (and Dragon Tail) in the last slot with V-Create.
- Mixed Dancer stays put
- Add CB and Scarf sets. Keep what you have for both right now, but get rid of ExtremeSpeed on the Scarf set. I'd also suggest Jolly on the Scarf set.

 

[trickroom]

I think V-Create is rather useless on the DD set. Reducing your Speed and defenses after Dragon Dancing just makes you more vulnerable to revenge kills.

V-Create should get the main slash in the SD set but Overheat has its merits. There are situations where you don't need V-Create, but V-Create's power is too awesome to ignore. Put Earthquake in AC as it is Rayquaza's best attack against Dialga.

V-Create should not be simply spammed when using the SD set, because it makes you prone to revenge kills by things that will not be able to counter SD Rayquaza usually, such as Dialga and Giratina-O. After V-Create, both can outspeed you and OHKO with their own Dragon-type attacks while ExtremeSpeed won't do much.

Add CB and Scarf sets. Keep what you have for both right now, but get rid of ExtremeSpeed on the Scarf set. I'd also suggest Jolly on the Scarf set.

I will say make Hasty the main slash. Rayquaza's main selling point over Zekrom other than V-Create is a much more powerful Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor also easily OHKOes Darkrai and Shaymin-S, without resorting to Outrage or V-Create.

Jibaku's set
Hasty nature
252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
-V-Create
-Outrage
-Draco Meteor
-Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed

ExtremeSpeed is weak but it helps pick off a near death Arceus / opposing Rayquaza, that's what Jibaku said. Ice Beam can be used to 2HKO Ground Arceus while Stone Edge OHKOes Ho-Oh.

 

[shrang]

I'd say run max Speed on Scarf Ray, since it at least allows you to speed-tie with opposing Rayquazas, and a 50% chance to revenge-kill DD Ray is definitely better than a 0% chance. Does 40 SpA get you any kills you normally don't?

 

[trickroom]

It doesn't get any extra kills besides a better chance to OHKO Darkrai. Make it max Speed then.

 

[hamiltonion]

- DD set stays put, maybe mention V-Create in AC.
- Make V-Create the main (or only?) slash on the SD for the final slot. Remove the Waterfall slash.
- Mixed set: Not too sure how to do this, need other QC input. Maybe replace Outrage (and Dragon Tail) in the last slot with V-Create.
- Mixed Dancer stays put
- Add CB and Scarf sets. Keep what you have for both right now, but get rid of ExtremeSpeed on the Scarf set. I'd also suggest Jolly on the Scarf set.

I'm gonna have to agree with Trickroom in that V-Create is pointless on the DD set. After you have gotten a DD, a V-Create pretty much makes Rayquaza useless as the primary reason for even using DD is the Speed boost (the Attack boost is nice too, but its the Speed boost thats important). So no, I'd say dont even mention V-Create in AC, if anything give a warning against the temptation to use V-Create.

I have a couple of changes for the Mixed set actually.

• I'd say remove the Lum Berry and Focus Sash slashes in the items. Rayquaza needs the power of LO to break through walls and apply offensive pressure on your opponent. Move those to AC.

• Agreeing with Shrang about having V-Create over Outrage. V-Create ends up having the same base power as Outrage and doesn't lock you in. Personally, I'd rather get a V-Create drop and simply switch out rather than be stuck with Outrage since your opponent will inevitably switch in a Steel like Ferrothorn or will simply revenge you. V-Create also helps beat those CM Arceus variants lacking Ice Beam or Dragon-type judgment as well. Not too sure about Dragon Tail as I'm kinda on the fence on this one. Trickroom, take the call !

Lastly Choice Scarf set

Capable of revenging stuff like Kingdra and friends with Chlorophyl / Swift Swim, can also clean late game if things are weakened with a powerful STAB Outrage.

All Rayquaza variants can do that thanks to Air Lock, this one is additionally capable of beating +1 Kingdra. So, omit that sentence.

 

[polop]

Analysis is finally caught back up to proper pace! (yay?)

Capable of revenging stuff like Kingdra and friends with Chlorophyl / Swift Swim, can also clean late game if things are weakened with a powerful STAB Outrage.

I meant thats an advantage over other scarfers / revenge killers :( sorry, its really important too so I don't know about removing it... mentioning the thing about + 1 Kingdra though.

I'd say remove the Lum Berry and Focus Sash slashes in the items. Rayquaza needs the power of LO to break through walls and apply offensive pressure on your opponent. Move those to AC.

Done

It doesn't get any extra kills besides a better chance to OHKO Darkrai. Make it max Speed then.

Done

- DD set stays put, maybe mention V-Create in AC.
- Make V-Create the main (or only?) slash on the SD for the final slot. Remove the Waterfall slash.
- Mixed set: Not too sure how to do this, need other QC input. Maybe replace Outrage (and Dragon Tail) in the last slot with V-Create.
- Mixed Dancer stays put
- Add CB and Scarf sets. Keep what you have for both right now, but get rid of ExtremeSpeed on the Scarf set. I'd also suggest Jolly on the Scarf set.

Done.

Not too sure about Dragon Tail as I'm kinda on the fence on this one. Trickroom, take the call !

Idea of Dragon Tail is to shuffle out enemy / check / counter that switches in and force it back out. Very useful against Lugia since they take 2* SR damage and I believe that puts them in range for a Draco Meteor.

I'll try talking to Bojangles on IRC, if he denies of my doing the revamp I'll edit my post here so that a mod can lock this or something. If he approves I'll post that also.

 

[shrang]

Implement trickroom and barry4ever's suggestions please (Biggest one would be to change the Scarf set to the "Jibaku's set" listed in trickroom's post).

 

[polop]

Implement trickroom and barry4ever's suggestions please (Biggest one would be to change the Scarf set to the "Jibaku's set" listed in trickroom's post).

Implemented. Sorry about my tardiness in talking to Bojangles, shall be done soon.

 

[calze6]

Just wondering is SD quaza even worth a set any more? SD normal/dragon arceus does almost everything better defensively at a tiny cost of damage (quaza still struggles to ko giratina, etc anyway)

 

[shrang]

SD Ray does have the nice advantage of being able to OHKO all three of the major physical walls (Groudon, Lugia, Giratina) in the tier at +2. While he used to have to do it with Outrage, he can now OHKO Groudon and Lugia with V-Create from the new event. Which reminds me, Mr. lol, can you actually put implement the changes that you said in the "changes" into the actual set instead of just listing them? When I said list the changes, it's there so we can easily see what you've changed.

So:

Changes
Slashing V-Create over Overheat and EQ, mentioning EQ in AC.
Removing Waterfall slash

Put them into the set.

 

[trickroom]

Is this still worked on?

 

[shrang]

They still haven't released a client with V-Create Ray yet, so none of us has been able to test it so far.

 

[Nexus]

k, so mr.lol hasn't been on for 28 days, safe to say this needs a new owner.

 

[Keiran]

<p>A Jolly nature is especially useful this generation with the the rise of the two new Dragon-types, Zekrom and Reshiram. Both usually run max Speed, and can outpace and OHKO Rayquaza with their powerful Dragon-type attacks if Rayquaza is running an Adamant nature. While using Jolly, running an alternate EV spread of 34 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 216 Spe is an option.</p>

34 HP isn't an EV number, whereas 32 and 36 are. So if you're aiming to outspeed Zekrom / Reshiram shouldn't the spread be 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Jolly? (which is also a stealth rock number)

 

[Jukain]

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake / Stone Edge
move 4: Overheat / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

and

Changes

• Warn against V-Create in AC

As far as the set, Fire Blast needs a mention at least in AC in case the opponent, for some reason, has more than one Steel-type in need of a beating. Definitely warn against V-Create in AC, Rayquaza needs its Speed when Dragon Dancing. On a somewhat nitpicking note, if Overheat is run, the 4 EVs should be in Special Attack. Also, why no Lum Berry? You can rid yourself of paralysis or burn while sweeping, also sleep from Darkrai, and Toxic.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Dragon Claw / Waterfall
move 4: Earthquake / Overheat
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

and

Changes

• Slashing V-Create over Overheat and EQ, mentioning EQ in AC.
• Removing Waterfall slash

Definitely remove the Waterfall slash, your Dragon-type STAB is important to consistently hit hard. In that respect, move 2 should be Dragon Claw, move 3 ExtremeSpeed. As for your other change, make the first slash V-Create, it is definitely useful, but keep EQ in there, as it does not drop your Speed and comes off of Rayquaza's invested stat. Once again, 4 EVs in Special Attack if running Overheat. Also again, Lum Berry for paralysis, burn, Toxic, and sleep. Another little thing, but why 4 SpD here and 4 HP on the first set?

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Outrage / Dragon Tail / Brick Break
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Focus Sash
nature: Hasty / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

and

Changes

• Removing Lum Berry and Focus Sash
• V-Create > Outrage and Dragon Tail.

Agreeing with removing Lum Berry and Focus Sash. However, add in Expert Belt for surprise factor. V-Create is better than Outrage and Dragon Tail, but god forbid we don't need 5 slashes. Get Dragon Tail and Brick Break in AC, and make the slashes V-Create / Outrage.

No need to make a quote to say this, but on the Mixed Dancer, Lum Berry can get a mention for dealing with mainly sleep and paralysis, to a lesser extent burn and Toxic. Also, warn against V-Create here as well.

Again no need to quote, but the order should be 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe for EVs. Again, inconsistency in 4 EVs placement.

Scarf set should have 4 EVs in Defense moved to Special Attack.

Substitute can be mentioned in OO for Sub + 3 Attacks set that gives Rayquaza a safety net against scarfers and priority.

The one thing I felt I should address here is something I mentioned throughout, but the placing of 4 extra EVs in many cases in inconsistent. With the filler 4 EVs in Def, HP, and SpD scattered throughout, there needs to be one solidified placement for the 4 EVs or an explanation as to why they are in different places. Anywhere a special attack may be used, it should be mentioned that those 4 EVs should go in Special Attack.

Cheers!

 

[TrollFreak]

Um guys, you know that someone has to take this over

 

[trickroom]

Agreeing with removing Lum Berry and Focus Sash. However, add in Expert Belt for surprise factor. V-Create is better than Outrage and Dragon Tail, but god forbid we don't need 5 slashes. Get Dragon Tail and Brick Break in AC, and make the slashes V-Create / Outrage.

Lum Berry and Focus Sash should be put in AC. Lum Berry allows Rayquaza to take out Darkrai leads which can be important sometimes. Focus Sash lets Rayquaza beat Dialga(with Earthquake + Draco Meteor), Palkia, Mewtwo and faster Dragon-types such as Garchomp, all these assuming Focus Sash is still intact. Expert Belt is useless as Rayquaza is rarely a choice user for at least for now. Expert Belt does not give you the KOs Life Orb provides so that sucks.

Life Orb is still the best item for Mixed Rayquaza because he really needs the power to grab those OHKO(Groudon) or 2HKO(Lugia after SR / Arceus- DM + ExtremeSpeed kills). Brick Break can be dropped but Dragon Tail is quite useful [preventing Rayquaza from being Arceus set up bait after using Draco Meteor] so slashing it with Outrage is fine. V-Create > Fire Blast. You don't need to use both Fire Blast and V-Create as they do the same thing. The last slot can still be Outrage to 2HKO Ho-Oh, Kyogre and some Calm Mind Arceus. I personally think Dragon Pulse is the best option in the last slot for consistency, this is originally Jibaku's idea. Dragon Pulse still does decent damage to things like Dialga and Kyogre while Giratina-O is still OHKOed.

No need to make a quote to say this, but on the Mixed Dancer, Lum Berry can get a mention for dealing with mainly sleep and paralysis, to a lesser extent burn and Toxic. Also, warn against V-Create here as well.

Lum Berry defeats the purpose of using the Mixed Dancer which is surprise. Without Life Orb, Rayquaza no longer OHKOes Groudon and Arceus after hazards damage. I cannot see any Pokemon who can burn/toxic Rayquaza without dying next turn. Giratina will not switch in while Steel Arceus is smashed by +1 Earthquake or Fire Blast. Rayquaza dies fast anyway so people will just try to kill it fast instead of statusing. Scarf users are the most common ways to defeat Rayquaza so Lum Berry is useless. Defensive Arceus is blasted by Draco Meteor and surprisingly outsped if it runs no Speed. V-Create is not mentioned because it will not be used in the Mixed Dancer set.

Also, for anyone taking over this, Lugia is still one of the closest check to CB Rayquaza. It can switch in on any move but Outrage. If Lugia runs enough Speed, it can wall Rayquaza with Roost + Reflect. Impish Lugia can sometimes survive 2 Outrages from Jolly CB Rayquaza factoring in leftovers if SR is not out. Using V-Create means Lugia is guaranteed to outspeed Rayquaza next turn. Roost keeps Lugia health high while Ice Beam will almost OHKO Rayquaza.

Groudon survives any attack and can OHKO with Stone Edge after SR for Support Groudon. It can still come in on V-Create, outspeed next turn and KO you.

 

[hamiltonion]

The one thing I felt I should address here is something I mentioned throughout, but the placing of 4 extra EVs in many cases in inconsistent. With the filler 4 EVs in Def, HP, and SpD scattered throughout, there needs to be one solidified placement for the 4 EVs or an explanation as to why they are in different places. Anywhere a special attack may be used, it should be mentioned that those 4 EVs should go in Special Attack.

The 4 leftovers EVs from the 252 / 252 EV distribution are usually placed in HP. However, since Rayquaza is weak to Stealth Rock, 4 HP EVs make the HP stat divisible by 4 and thus Rayquaza will inevitable die to 4 Stealth Rock switch-ins. Hence, the 4 EVs are usually just placed in SpD. Also you're point about putting the leftover EVs into SpA, doesnt really matter since 4 SpA EVs increase the damage output done by Special Attacking moves by less 0.50% in certain cases.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Garchomp is its only competitor for this role, lacks V-Create, ability to outspeed kindgra, and ludicolo, and Shiftry, and Venusaur, and Excadril and... (insert other competitive pokes with weather speed abilities).

Sorry, but I don't understand this. Yes, Rayquaza outspeeds them, but it doesn't need a Choice Scarf to do so. Any Rayquaza that runs max Speed can outrun weather sweepers, apart from Floatzel, so I don't see why you bother mentioning this.

 

[locoghoul]

I don't quite get the Scarf set. It is being sold as a great revenge killer for weather abusers. BUT, Ray already outspeeds all of them with a + Spe nature (Air lock??) so, again I don't get the whole sentence on "revenges Kingdra, Ludicolo, Excadrill, Venusaur, etc, etc.".

 

[Garganator]

Sorry, but I don't understand this. Yes, Rayquaza outspeeds them, but it doesn't need a Choice Scarf to do so. Any Rayquaza that runs max Speed can outrun weather sweepers, apart from Floatzel, so I don't see why you bother mentioning this.

I think he meant that he outspeeds weather abusers AND also some dangerous sweepers like Darkrai, MewTwo, etc. which he obviously can't do without Scarf. In other words he's a scarf user which outspeeds weather abusers while outspeeding some dangerous metagame threats which don't rely on weather. Otherwise... yep, it doesn't make sense.