Lower Tiers RBY NU Hub

[Sabelette]

RBY NU
:Blastoise::Mr. Mime::Charizard:
​

If you're interested in the tier, you can also discuss it in the Discord here.

Banlist

Ubers:
:Mew: Mew
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo

OU:
:Alakazam: Alakazam
:Chansey: Chansey
:Cloyster: Cloyster
:Exeggutor: Exeggutor
:Gengar: Gengar
:Jolteon: Jolteon
:jynx: Jynx
:Rhydon: Rhydon
:Slowbro: Slowbro
:Snorlax: Snorlax
:Starmie: Starmie
:Tauros: Tauros
:victreebel: Victreebel
:Zapdos: Zapdos

UU:
:Articuno: Articuno
:clefable: Clefable
:Dodrio: Dodrio
:Dragonite: Dragonite
:Dugtrio: Dugtrio
:Electabuzz: Electabuzz
:electrode: Electrode
:golem: Golem
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Haunter: Haunter
:Hypno: Hypno
:Kadabra: Kadabra
:Kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:Lapras: Lapras
:ninetales: Ninetales
:Omastar: Omastar
:Persian: Persian
:raichu: Raichu
:Tangela: Tangela
:Tentacruel: Tentacruel
:Vaporeon: Vaporeon

January 2025 RBY NU Viability Rankings

S
01 :mr._mime: Mr. Mime
02 :charizard: Charizard

A+
03 :venomoth: Venomoth
04 :fearow: Fearow
05 :poliwrath: Poliwrath

A
06 :seadra: Seadra
07 :moltres: Moltres
08 :magneton: Magneton
09 :blastoise: Blastoise
10 :raticate: Raticate
11 :kabutops: Kabutops

B
12 :arcanine: Arcanine
13 :poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
14 :aerodactyl: Aerodactyl

C+
15 :porygon: Porygon
16 :golduck: Golduck
17 :gastly: Gastly
18 :graveler: Graveler
19 :nidoking: Nidoking
20 :venusaur: Venusaur
21 :wigglytuff: Wigglytuff

C
22 :exeggcute: Exeggcute
23 :dragonair: Dragonair

D
24 :kingler: Kingler
25 :primeape: Primeape
26 :rapidash: Rapidash
27 :scyther: Scyther
28 :staryu: Staryu

April 2026 Samples

:tentacruel: :poliwrath: :kadabra: :mr_mime: :golem: :charizard:
Tent wrath mime golem by hammer798

:arcanine: :kadabra: :vaporeon: :kabutops: :tangela: :charizard:
Arc kabu tang zard by hammer798

:dewgong: :vaporeon: :kadabra: :venomoth: :kabutops: :tentacruel:
Dewgong moth kabu tent by hammer798

:arcanine: :poliwrath: :golem: :dewgong: :raticate: :kadabra:
Arc wrath dewgong golem by Toxin Boost

:charizard: :victreebel: :vaporeon: :mr_mime: :golem: :kadabra:
Zard vic mime golem by Toxin Boost

:mr_mime: :venomoth: :tentacruel: :vaporeon: :charizard: :kadabra:
Mime moth tent zard by Toxin Boost

:charizard: :venomoth: :kadabra: :raticate: :nidoking: :tentacruel:
Zard moth nido tent by TG2513

:mr_mime: :dewgong: :vaporeon: :kadabra: :nidoking: :electrode:
Mime dewgong nido trode by TG2513

:arcanine: :raticate: :dewgong: :kadabra: :charizard: :victreebel:
Arc dewgong zard vic by Maris Bonibell

:tentacruel: :kadabra: :vaporeon: :raticate: :venomoth: :porygon:
Tent moth pory by Maris Bonibell

:venomoth: :kadabra: :vaporeon: :fearow: :tentacruel: :golem:
Moth fearow tent golem by Maris Bonibell

:charizard: :kadabra: :vaporeon: :raticate: :venusaur: :electrode:
Zard venu trode by Maris Bonibell

:charizard: :venomoth: :mr_mime: :kadabra: :kabutops: :nidoking:
Zard moth mime kabu nido by Tree69420

:poliwrath: :omastar: :venusaur: :raticate: :kadabra: :golduck:
Wrath oma venu duck by Tree69420

Old VRs and Samples

18 April 2025 Samples

:charizard::mr_mime::poliwrath::raticate::moltres::kabutops:
Zard Lead + Rat Molt Kabu by Wanted in 49 States

:charizard::mr_mime::poliwrath::raticate::fearow::graveler:
Zard Lead + Double Normal + Grav by Wanted in 49 States

:charizard::magneton::mr_mime::moltres::venomoth::seadra:
SpinZard Lead + Mag + Double Agi by Teh

:venomoth::mr_mime::magneton::kabutops::moltres::poliwrath:
Moth Lead + MagTops by Teh

:charizard::aerodactyl::mr_mime::exeggcute::poliwrath::seadra:
Zard Lead + Aero + Egg by hammer798

:charizard::fearow::raticate::mr_mime::magneton::poliwrath:
Zard Lead Double Normal by hammer798

:venomoth::mr_mime::blastoise::kabutops::exeggcute::charizard:
Moth Lead + Kabu Egg by hammer798

:magneton::poliwrath::arcanine::seadra::mr_mime::charizard:
Mag Lead Double Water Double Fire by Toxin Boost

:poliwrath::graveler::fearow::seadra::mr_mime::charizard:
Wrath Lead + Graveler + Fast Spam by Toxin Boost

:arcanine::poliwrath::magneton::blastoise::mr_mime::charizard:
Arc Lead Double Water + Mag by Toxin Boost

:charizard::venomoth::seadra::blastoise::fearow::mr_mime:
SpinZard Lead + Double Water by Toxin Boost

:venomoth::raticate::fearow::poliwrath::mr_mime::charizard:
Moth Lead Double Normal by Sabelette

:porygon::magneton::fearow::venomoth::mr_mime::poliwrath:
Pory Lead + Mag Zardless by Sabelette

:charizard::venomoth::moltres::mr_mime::fearow::seadra:
Zard Lead Agility Spam by Sabelette

:venomoth::mr_mime::kabutops::fearow::poliwrath::charizard:
Moth Lead Kabu + Wrath by Sabelette

:venomoth::mr_mime::kabutops::aerodactyl::poliwhirl::charizard:
Double Sleeper Double Rock by Sabelette

:poliwhirl::mr_mime::venomoth::moltres::fearow::seadra:
CounterWhirl + Agility Spam by Sabelette

:moltres::porygon::magneton::poliwrath::mr_mime::charizard:
Molt Lead + Pory by Maris Bonibell

Sample Teams 2024 - somewhat outdated

Ruins of Alph Samples


Aero Lead + Kabu by Sabelette


Mag Lead Fast Spam by TG2513


Fire Spam by Sabelette


Double Fire+Water + Grass by Maris Bonibell


Mime Lead + Magneton by TG2513


Mime Lead Fast Spam + Kabu by Shellnuts


Mime Lead Double Flying + Water by Tree69420


Zard Lead Fast Spam + Wrath by Tree69420


Zard Lead + Blastoise + Gastly by Tree69420


Zard Lead Waterspam + Venusaur by Teh


Relatively Fast Spam by Sabelette


Moth Lead + Good Stuff by Sabelette


Moth Lead + Poliwrath by Teh

Post-April 2024 UU VR Initial Speculation/VR

After the 2024 UU Viability Rankings update, RBY NU shifted drastically, with Aerodactyl, Venusaur, and Victreebel dropping into the tier and Clefable, Ninetales, Electrode, and Golem rising to UU. Since then, the NU council unbanned Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, and Golduck, and OU reclaimed Victreebel in their Viability Rankings update. As a result, NU has no current Viability Rankings. Below is a very general summary of some Pokemon known or expected to be relevant in the tier, ordered alphabetically. This is subject to change heavily as the metagame is explored.

High Viability - Pokemon you are likely to encounter frequently in NU games that are well-regarded by the playerbase.
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:Blastoise: Blastoise
:Charizard: Charizard
:golduck: Golduck
:Moltres: Moltres
:Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime
:poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
:poliwrath: Poliwrath
:Raticate: Raticate
:Seadra: Seadra
:Venomoth: Venomoth

Mid Viability - Somewhat common Pokemon with defined niches that help with specific matchups or team compositions.
:Arcanine: Arcanine
:gastly: Gastly
:Kabutops: Kabutops
:magneton: Magneton
:Nidoking: Nidoking
:Fearow: Fearow
:venusaur: Venusaur

Low Viability - Pokemon with some current use or use in the prior metagame but currently lacking in usage and/or meta exploration.
:Abra: Abra
:dragonair: Dragonair
:Exeggcute: Exeggcute
:Kingler: Kingler
:Pinsir: Pinsir
:Porygon: Porygon
:Primeape: Primeape
:Rapidash: Rapidash
:scyther: Scyther
:slowpoke: Slowpoke
:staryu: Staryu
:Wigglytuff: Wigglytuff

April 2023 VR

As of April 9th, 2023, here are the official viability rankings for RBY NU; please note that these rankings are outdated due to new rises and drops. Pokemon that have dropped into the tier since then are designated at the top as "NEW" and were not ranked on the last VR. Pokemon that were banned since the last VR due to rising to UU are marked in bold red:

NEW:
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:golduck: Golduck
:poliwrath: Poliwrath
:poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
:venusaur: Venusaur
:victreebel: Victreebel - rose back to OU May 16, 2024

S:
:Clefable: 1. Clefable
:Mr. Mime: 2. Mr. Mime

A:
:Blastoise: 3. Blastoise
:Charizard: 4. Charizard
:Venomoth: 5. Venomoth

A-:
:Golem: 6. Golem
:Nidoking: 7. Nidoking

B:
:Raticate: 8. Raticate
:Moltres: 9. Moltres
:Kabutops: 10. Kabutops
:Kingler: 11. Kingler
:Wigglytuff: 12. Wigglytuff

B-:
:Seadra: 13. Seadra
:Electrode: 14. Electrode
:Exeggcute: 15. Exeggcute
:Ninetales: 16. Ninetales

--- NU/PU Cutoff Line ---

C:
:Fearow: 17. Fearow
:Rapidash: 18. Rapidash
:Porygon: 19. Porygon

D:
:Pinsir: 20. Pinsir
:Abra: 21. Abra
:Arcanine: 22. Arcanine
:Primeape: 23. Primeape
:Sandslash: 24. Sandslash

 

[Gamer1234556]

Idk if Poliwrath is going to stay in the tier for long, especially if the criteria of getting Golduck banned would end up being passed over to Poliwrath, who from what I heard, is technically superior to Golduck in every way.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Now that venusaur is banned, yeah, wrath is ridiculous.

Here's a couple of calcs to get you started:

:raichu:
+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Raichu: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Raichu Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 122-144 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO

:mr. mime:
+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Mr. Mime: 165-195 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mr. Mime Psychic vs. +2 Poliwrath: 124-146 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO

So here's the things that are technically able to switch in and might win

:fearow:
+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Fearow: 222-261 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fearow Drill Peck vs. Poliwrath: 168-198 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 9.7% chance to 2HKO
But watch out for:
+2 Poliwrath Blizzard vs. Fearow: 374-440 (112.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:kingler:
+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Kingler: 124-146 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 Kingler Body Slam vs. Poliwrath: 152-179 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 Kingler Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 268-315 (69.9 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 Kingler Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 371-437 (96.8 - 114%) -- 82.1% chance to OHKO
However:
+2 Poliwrath Psychic vs. Kingler: 157-185 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So I guess Poli chooses between Blizzard or Hypnosis, since it probably wants psychic for the other Polis.

 

[pac]

Alright so, I am here to present the other side of the argument:
Poliwrath is not that broken in the NU metagame, at least for now.

Poliwrath, when being compared to what happened with Golduck, was rightfully feared going into this. Another good water amnesia user, but with Hypnosis? We also have to deal with this, but without Venusaur? Obviously we were going to think this shit was busted to the umpteenth degree.

However, things are different then what we expected. The major kicker is that Poliwrath is not better than Golduck was. While Poliwrath does have access to a large movepool, its Fighting-typing allows it to be taken advantage of by more Pokemon. It is slower, being outsped by multiple Pokemon that Golduck is not. Notable ones include Dragonair, Kabutops, Pinsir, and Nidoking. And while Poliwrath does have access to Hypnosis, as described below, it can have a hard time giving up certain moves in order to run it. There are also numerously more solid physical attackers then when we played with Golduck, for one (not that they were added, more so that we recently discovered their viability). Kabutops, Kingler, Raticate, Pinsir, and Primeape are all of a decent speed tier, support the team with strong physicals. There is also pivoting with Pinsir, Super Fang with Raticate, and good typing on Kabutops. Kingler is just typical Cringe Crab. There is also Raichu, the other new presence in the tier. Raichu has a high crit rate, an amazing speed tier, spreads paralysis, and is a demon with access to Hyper Beam and Agility. Poliwrath does NOT like this piss stained rat, and its one of the major contributers that hold it back in games. Throw in Mr. Mime, Dragonair, Exeggcute, and you have one Pokemon that is threatened by ALOT of the tier.

Now do not misunderstand me, Poliwrath is GOOD. Hypnosis access with Amnesia and decent coverage? Sign me up. Golduck in NU was compared to Mewtwo in Ubers. Poliwrath in NU is more like a member of the Big 3 in OU. While it is rather centralising and powerful, and most teams will use it, it has plenty of counterplay. Its also worth noting that Poliwrath is much more strategic and customisable then Golduck, due to Poliwrath's higher amount of useful moves. Hypnosis, Psychic, Surf, Ice Beam, Amnesia, Rest, Hydro Pump, Earthquake, etc. all have to be considered. It is definitely a much healthier presence then before, and the topic of removing it is more of a question then a guarantee.

There is still much more NU to be played, so opinions can (and most definitely will), easily change. I'm eyeing Poliwhirl personally, that thing is a MONSTER when played right. People like to forget that Poliwhirl loses speed when evolving into Poliwrath.

 

[Red@MountSilver]

I came here because I didn't know why NU came back in gen 1, and i'm glad it is! UU was too crowded of a tier anyway.

 

[Sevi 7]

Alright. I've made some initial changes and will be discussing them. Please know that there isn't much to go off of these initial weeks, so these will definitely fluctuate and change. However, this should be at least somewhat of a guide to why things are placed where they are at.


S Ranks:
:Poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
Poliwhirl is the best lead and functions as a wrath check and a way to weaken down your opponent's team's water checks in general. Double Poli isn't mandatory, but it's definitely looking like the inital meta for now. I imagine this will go away with time (or it will go back down to B if/when we ban wrath) but for right now, Whirl is a premier part of the meta.

:Poliwrath: Poliwrath
The biggest hitter in the tier. If you let this thing set-up without a way to easily break it, gg. Even if it doesn't sweep you itself, it'll weaken your team enough for Raichu or w/e to finish off the rest of a team. As others are saying, I think this is looking to be NUBL, but it's way too soon to tell. I also am a firm believer that Poliwrath is viable Pokemon in UU, and I'm hoping others will see that in time, removing it either way.

:Raichu: Raichu
Really good against Poli, but also one of the fastest pokemon in the tier. STAB TBolt is really great and Surf provides near perfect coverage (only having problems with Grass). Agility can be ran to not care about paralysis, but Body Slam and H Beam are great moves too. Raichu is another Pokemon I'm thinking is over dominating the meta. But we'll see. Definitely an S Rank and probably meta defying even without Wrath



A Ranks:
:Clefable: Clefable
Still the best Mime check, Clef can paralyze and sing, do nice damage with Body Slam and H Beam, and has good coverage with BoltBlizz. It's still holding itself as one of the better mons in the meta.

:Electrode: Electrode
Thanks to Wrath, Electrode is now more important than ever, because it's got a high crit rate and STAB TBolt to break through Poli's Amnesia. Explosion and being faster than Raichu is good as well. Raichu + Electrode is viable and is actually really good atm, so Electrode can hold itself as an A Rank, at least for now. I think this could change in the future though.

:Exeggcute: Exeggcute
Exeggecute is the best check to Raichu , Electrode and Mr Mime, making Egg better and more important than ever. Double Powder can be used to cripple the opponent, while Psychic does decent damage. Rest is good for Defense and can be used to check mime and raichu harder while explosion is good to take out the threat entirely. Single powder with Rest and Explosion would be good too, but that's not something I've tried yet.

:Fearow: Fearow
Fearow finds itself with new targets to kill with D Peck thanks to Egg and Wrath. Rock usage is also down thanks to Poli and Raichu both being great anti-rock mons. So Fearow finds itself with new purpose. Raichu and Electrode both give it problems though and it needs support.

:Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime
Still one of the best special attackers in the game. Psychic and Thunderbolt both hit wrath super effectively and t wave helps keep chu in check. Nidoking is still seeing some usage, so STAB Psychic is important as well. Raichu + Mr Mime is a scary amount of special offense that doesn't need any set-up. The core can't get past rest Egg though, so fortunately it's not too bad, yet. With time I expect this core to become more common though. ~~Assuming Chu doesn't get banned~~

:Nidoking: Nidoking
Despite all the powerful water attacks at the front of the meta, Nidoking still finds use as a mix attacker. EQ w/ BoltBlizz provides good coverage and can do serious damage to anything without an amnesia boost. Being able to come in on Electric-types for free is also a good asset. With Zard and Moltres in the back of the meta as well, it seems like Rock Slide is less useful and Sub is better now as well. Which is huge for punishing switching out of Nidoking, making it even better. I'd say this is the best mixed attacker atm.

:Raticate: Raticate
With two Set-up tanks dominating the meta, a wallbreaker is great rn. Super Fang + STAB H Beam helps with that, so we have Raitcate. Pre-Alpha has people scared of using Raticate, because of the proper pivoting to make it work. However, with a couple of mons setting-up and wanting to sit there, that pivoting and planning became a lot easier. Raticate's 4th also seems like it can change with the meta. Thunderbolt or Blizzard seem to be the move of choice atm, but I think Subsitute and Quick Attack might be worth considering too.

:Slowpoke: Slowpoke
Yes, a team can run 3 Amnesia mons and expect to win. Slowpoke adds another amenisa water mon into the fray. This time one with Thunder Wave. Initially this seems to be enough with 2x Poli to overwhelm a team. However, Slowpoke is the slowest Pokemon in the game and is cannot be as good as either Poli, which makes Slowpoke more of a support mon in comparison. It's still good though.



B Ranks:
:Blastoise: Blastoise
It's not seeing much use right now and is more theoretical, but I'm keeping it B for now. Raichu absolutely destroys it, but it does have some use against Poli. EQ can also be nice to snipe an electric. It may not stay B, but it's still worthy of the rank for now.

:Charizard: Charizard
Honestly this things usage fell off a cliff. While considered top 3 in Pre-Alpha, Zard isn't getting use at all. It's still a fast mon with Fire Spin, Fire Blast, Slash SD and EQ. So It still has potential of hitting things like Egg and Mime. However, it needs some serious support to beat the new S Ranked mons.

:Dewgong: Dewgong
Same as Blastoise, this has something more theoretical than something that has actually been used. STAB Blizzard hits hard against non-waters, especially Egg. It also forces Poli to choose between Psychic or Blizzard for coverage meaning that it + Egg might have some kind of core there, similar to what you see in Ubers for Mewtwo. However, it's more theorymon, so it's here for now until it proves less useful in actuality.

:Dragonair: Dragonair
AgiliWrap is still legal and still stupid and doesn't care about Amnesia. DNair is the only NFE with H Beam and may want to take advantage of it here, especially with fewer rocks.

:Drowzee: Drowzee
Not as good as Egg now, it still works as a good Mime check that can tank hits and paralyze/sleep the team. Despite the huge shifts, Drowzee might not actually change much. Time will tell how true that stays though.

:Kabutops: Kabutops
With so much competition and Raichu in the meta, and Fires not existing, Kabutops has fallen on hard times. It's still great when it's needed, but it's hard to justify it now. It may end up dropping from B rank soon.

:Moltres: Moltres
Holding on by the skin of its teeth thanks to its nice bulk, power and the stupidness of Toxic Agility Wrap, Moltres is still getting ranked. It hits non-Waters really hard, and can OHKO enough things with a crit to make you scared of switching in on it. This is one fire type that might not go anywhere, but I may also be overestimating it by a long shot.

:Ninetales: Ninetales
Another ToxicWrapper. This one doesn't fear Electric-type attacks though and has pretty good special. It's anyone's guess if this thing will last in B though.

:Pinsir: Pinsir
It hits hard and is another good set-up mon. It can do a lot of damage to an unprepared or weakened team, making it a good something to still fear in the meta. It may even be getting better and rise to A, but there's not really anything to base that on, other than gut feeling.

:Rapidash: Rapidash
Another Another Toxic Wrapper. Same as Ninetales, but it's faster than Raichu, gets Agility and has different offense and defensive trade offs.

:Seadra: Seadra
This might not be as dead as you might expect. If Poli is taken care of, Then Raichu + Seadra has good offense. Throw in a Fearow and you have a strong Agility based offensive team. It's more theoretical than anything else though.

:Weepinbell: Weepinbell
Out of Venusaur's ashes comes Weepibell. It pales in comparison, as it doesn't even have 99.6% chance to crit with razor lead. However, it does get Wrap and Stun Spore so there's something there. It's also a grass-type that Raichu hates to go against, so it's got something against all 3 of the S Ranks, despite how poor it actually is.

:Venomoth: Venomoth
It's holding itself out as a fast Sleep Powder user. Mega Drain or Psychic hit Wrath super effectively and Raichu doesn't hit it super effectively. With less Fire-types running around and with less competition, Veno might be even better than before.



C Ranks:
:Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
Rock-typing helps with the occasionally used Fire-type. Unfortunately it's Flying-typing is more of a weakness. It's weak to everything Raichu throws out it (except H Beam) and with Electrode in the tier, it can be outsped and killed by that. This thing may not stay up here or it may go to UU. But it's definitely not B Rank or higher atm.

:Arcanine: Arcanine
Unfortunately, without Fire Spin, Arcanine just can't find a niche for itself. Being strong against other fire-types doesn't mean much if you're going up against Waters. I think this thing might fall even lower than C Rank if the meta keeps going the way it is atm.

:Golem: Golem
Golem, always the niche and never the meta. It just can't catch a break. With Poli and Raichu on every team, Golem just can't find a solid place for itself. It does have a place, stopping Fearow, Electrode and BSlam, H Beam TBolt Clef. However, that's not really enough to make it meta atm. It may also drop lower soon.

:Ivysaur: Ivysaur
Weepinbell does seem like the better choice, but Double Electric + Double Grass was a team I made and had some success with it, so I think Ivysaur has some legitimate use here. It's not so niche to be D Rank either, which I think makes it a solid C Rank choice. See Weepiblell, if you want to know why you'd use this thing.

:Nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
It's kind of here, because it was here in Pre-Alpha. It does everything that King does, but it's not as good thanks to different stats. It may find itself some use though, especially with Sub seemingly better than Rock Slide in this meta

:Porygon: Porygon
Not much use for this thing at the moment. Its biggest niche is dead, but it does get Thunder Wave and Recover. But really it's not going to be doing much of anything now, so another potential drop.

:Weezing: Weezing
Weezing might be the only legitimate use of Haze so far. Stopping Poli's boosts, at the cost of whatever status it had, it may be able to do something yet. Unfortunately it has 4mss and haze is a risk to click, if the opponent has something statused. It's unproven, but maybe it can work.

Also I realized that D ranks were just carried over from Pre-Alpha and I've removed it for the time being. Feel free to suggest some (with evidence) though.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I want to move ahead with how we deal with this, and I think the first step is just to gauge the overall vibe with a quick straw poll of NU players.

The question is:
Do you personally believe that Poliwrath's presence make the metagame significantly worse overall?

I'm starting with Poliwrath because Poliwrath's presence definitely makes Raichu better, so it makes sense to get rid of that first, and then see if things like Golem might help keep Raichu in check. If you feel strongly that Raichu is hurting the metagame, feel free to mention that too. If it's obvious enough people hate Raichu too we'll think about how to deal with that as well.

 

[Hipmonlee]

To clarify, I want you to post in this thread what you think about poliwrath.

 

[Sevi 7]

I want to move ahead with how we deal with this, and I think the first step is just to gauge the overall vibe with a quick straw poll of NU players.

The question is:
Do you personally believe that Poliwrath's presence make the metagame significantly worse overall?

I'm starting with Poliwrath because Poliwrath's presence definitely makes Raichu better, so it makes sense to get rid of that first, and then see if things like Golem might help keep Raichu in check. If you feel strongly that Raichu is hurting the metagame, feel free to mention that too. If it's obvious enough people hate Raichu too we'll think about how to deal with that as well.

Click to collapse...

First, I'm really glad that a council member wants to help support the lower tier. Especially a tier as great as RBY NU. Can we please get some support for UU/AgiliWrap Clause though

I really don't think Poliwrath improves the game, and to be quite frank, I think it's detrimental. Those who played Pre-Alpha know just how good the tier was. It had diversity, skill and was honestly just really fun although Toxic Wrap wasn't as fun even though I'm the one who started using it Now the tier is very centralized, luck based and quite frankly not fun. I'm starting to ask for games of Pre-Alpha, just because it's so bad. I don't think Poli is as bad as Golduck; however, I'm still in favor of it getting banned. I think similarly to Golduck, it should be quickbanned. I'm not against a quickbam of Raichu as well, but taking out Poli is a step in the right direction. I know we do need to test a Golduck reintroduction, to see if the quickban was too hasty, but I don't see how Golduck could possibly improve the tier. Because of that, I think we should quickban first and then test the Pokemon back into the meta, one by one. I have no doubt they'll stay banned, but for the sake of doing everything correctly, we should probably do it.

tl;dr We should quickban Poli and probably Raichu. Then we test them back in the meta one by one.

 

[Volk]

I haven't played this meta as much as I would have liked yet, so I'll admit that I am talking a bit from inexperience. Nonetheless, I support an immediate quick ban of both Poliwrath and Raichu. Let's examine them.

Poliwrath, in my experience, hasn't exactly been the most amazing thing, but I think that has largely come from the fact that I was using it wrong (Rest is typically a waste of time on this Pokemon) and the people I played were not using it as much. Regardless, the presence of Poliwrath alone completely invalidates a huge swath of the tier. Most Water-type and Fire-type Pokemon are completely irrelevant thanks to Poliwrath. Poliwrath is greatly hindering the tier's diversity and forcing us to use some pretty weird stuff like Ivysaur and Weepinbell. I think this change will be a major step towards restoring the vastly superior pre-alpha meta while simultaneously avoiding the cancerous old UU that people like Hipmonlee are all too familiar with it. Ban it.

I believe Raichu is the single most egregious Pokemon in NU, and by a lot. I think Raichu is far more dangerous and centralizing than Poliwrath. Raichu is way too fast for this very slow meta, especially considering its coverage is pretty much perfect, being only sort of walled by a handful of NFE Pokemon. You can point to a few "counters" for Raichu like Nidoking, Exeggcute, and Dragonair, but the amount of resources you need to save up just to get an advantage against Raichu is absurd. Raichu requires you to dedicate multiple team slots to otherwise decent or mediocre mons just to stand a chance against it. Games would be a lot more interesting without Raichu, and I firmly believe Raichu's strength in the meta is completely irrelevant to that of Poliwrath. Ban it.

I also have a few other stuff my radar that I'd like to look into. Unlike Poliwrath and Raichu, who we should quick ban, these next few topics should be given a little less attention and maybe see a suspect test at some point.

Poliwhirl is another extremely egregious Pokemon. Poliwhirl is like Poliwrath, but with a better typing and speed, at the cost of some bulk and a few moves (most of which you weren't going to use anyway). Poliwhirl is annoying for many of the same reasons as Poliwrath, except it can also be an absolutely lethal lead capable of taking two or more Pokemon out of the game by turn 2 with just a little bit of luck. Poliwhirl requires absolutely no skill or team support to use effectively. All you do is slap it on a team as a lead, pray, and profit. I genuinely dislike Poliwhirl more than I dislike Poliwrath or Raichu. The only reason why it is less worthy of a ban is because it has consistency issues. Frankly, I'd quick ban Poliwhirl as well, but that is a slightly hotter take.

Banning Amnesia as a move is another route we can take, as it makes Poliwhirl and Poliwrath much more manageable, while also freeing Golduck. It is generally pretty difficult to make a case for move bans like this, but I do believe banning Amnesia would certainly solve pretty much every problem in NU aside from Raichu. It also keeps stupid stuff like Slowpoke from taking off. That Pokemon can be ridiculous too sometimes, even in our current meta.

Partial-Trapping and Agility + Partial-Trapping are also still on my docket of things to look at in NU, but they are of lowest priority right now. Once the meta settles after we get rid of Poliwrath and Raichu (and maybe Poliwhirl) this is the place to look.

In summary, Ban Poliwrath and Raichu effective immediately and keep an eye on Poliwhirl and/or Amnesia at large.

Also, don't bother retesting them. They are both very clearly broken. I don't think a suspect test is necessary to remove them or to potentially reallow them in NU.

 

[pac]

I want to move ahead with how we deal with this, and I think the first step is just to gauge the overall vibe with a quick straw poll of NU players.

The question is:
Do you personally believe that Poliwrath's presence make the metagame significantly worse overall?

I'm starting with Poliwrath because Poliwrath's presence definitely makes Raichu better, so it makes sense to get rid of that first, and then see if things like Golem might help keep Raichu in check. If you feel strongly that Raichu is hurting the metagame, feel free to mention that too. If it's obvious enough people hate Raichu too we'll think about how to deal with that as well.

Click to collapse...

Alright, i'm going to add my two cents here. If you don't feel like reading my explanations, essentially I support a ban for both Poliwrath and Raichu.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Due to the presence of Poliwrath and Raichu primarily, the tier has become quite unfun and unskillful to play.

"Monke move Forward!" is the motto of NU play at the moment.

For one, despite what I posted like 2 weeks ago, Poliwrath IS a problem. While my original position was based off what it actually does in a match, i've come to realize its extreme effects on team building. As anyone who's team built in this tier as of late will realize, Poliwrath's existence nearly completely mitigates Rest as a move. This is one of the primary reasons that defensive play has such a hard time existing in the tier, and turns every game into Hyper Offensive dittos. Whether it be against Triple Amnesia, Double Grass, or just bonking people with Raichu, the tier is extremely lacking in viable defensive options. Without Rest, and with the numerous offensive threats such as Nidoking, Poliwrath, Raichu, Fearow, Kingler, Kabutops, Raticate, and more, there are simply not enough defensive options to check all of these threats. I will note that Amnesia as a move is the primary reasoning for this, but as it seems that people are overall more supportive of a Poliwrath specific ban then it's not very important. Also, the fact that Weepinbell is viable in this tier because of it is fucking ridiculous.
I support a Poliwrath Ban.

Raichu is also a problem, and will continue to be a problem even after it loses one of it's most important roles as a Poliwrath check. It is in a near uncontested speed tier, with a phenomenal movepool that leaves it with very little answers and single handedly makes Pokemon that were once viable such as Golem nearly irrelevant. Its just a crazy offensive threat in a tier with too many offensive threats already.
I support a Raichu Ban.

I also support a Poliwhirl Ban as well, for the same reasons as in Volk's post. I also support an Amnesia one, but I think that can wait until a later analysis on the idea is made based on stuff such as Poliwag or Slowpoke.

Edit: didn't make this clear originally, I do think Raichu is a more pressing matter in RBY NU than Poliwrath.

 

[Red@MountSilver]

Poliwrath and Raichu Bans seem like a great idea, and I do not want to have to use ivysaur and weepinbell to deal with poliwrath.

 

[Shellnuts]

Echoing the sentiments above, I too support Poliwrath and Raichu bans. I played the tier a lot when it was released on showdown but very quickly realized that this tier is absolute garbage to play right now, defensive play is nearly nonexistent outside of Exeggcute blocking Raichu for 1 turn to get off sleep then explode but that's about it. The tier is entirely centred around hyper offence since you can never successfully execute defensive play since using rest is tantamount to throwing the game with Poliwrath just boosting up and smashing through your team. Much worse, however, without defensive play, you have no way of responding to bad luck, you can't try to mitigate the chance you get haxed with smart positioning since you are running hyper offence by necessity and have very little wiggle room in being able to answer the opponents main threats, so as soon as you get unlucky once the game effectively feels unwinnable since they just trade down and win. It legitimately feels like a tier where you win or lose based on luck and very little else, it is nearly unplayable and I very much want changes done.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Poliwrath and Raichu Bans seem like a great idea, and I do not want to have to use ivysaur and weepinbell to deal with poliwrath.

Click to collapse...

I disagree with the Raichu ban, just because it is broken in Gen 2 NU doesn't mean it is also broken in Gen 1 NU. If Poliwrath is banned, Poliwhirl still remains and with Raichu gone it is more dangerous. Raichu also has a hard time against Poliwhirl if the latter uses Amnesia before the former arrives. Counters to Raichu include Parasect, Clefable and Wigglituff, they can put it to sleep or paralyze it, stopping its "threat".

Vileplume also annoys Raichu, I think that you are exaggerating when you say that the mouse is broken.

 

[Volk]

I disagree with the Raichu ban, just because it is broken in Gen 2 NU doesn't mean it is also broken in Gen 1 NU. If Poliwrath is banned, Poliwhirl still remains and with Raichu gone it is more dangerous. Raichu also has a hard time against Poliwhirl if the latter uses Amnesia before the former arrives. Counters to Raichu include Parasect, Clefable and Wigglituff, they can put it to sleep or paralyze it, stopping its "threat".

Vileplume also annoys Raichu, I think that you are exaggerating when you say that the mouse is broken.

Click to collapse...

I don't really think any of these Pokemon really qualifies as a check to Raichu, and coincidentally, I think your post is illustrative of just how busted Raichu is. The first issue is that most of these Pokemon flat out just can't really switch in against Raichu. If Raichu lands a critical hit Thunderbolt, Clefable and Wigglytuff are both liable to just drop to a subsequent Submission, Hyper Beam, or another critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Raichu isn't so lucky, it isn't very hard to just switch out and come back later, as (1) neither Clefable nor Wigglytuff can afford to run Rest if the want to run dual status and (2) using Thunder Wave to Paralyze Raichu is extremely punishable with stuff like Golem or Nidoking. The rest of the Pokemon you list are just generally very bad. While Parasect takes Thunderbolt and Surf well, Parasect can't exactly do much in return once Sleep Clause is in effect. Mega Drain and Leech Life both do almost no damage, Slash and Hyper Beam are unreliable (usually getting a 3HKO even if you get a critical Slash), and Raichu can run Agility to shrug of Stun Spore. Vileplume is arguably even worse off as it has to use Body Slam to deal damage and is likely to only get a 4HKO if it is willing to use Hyper Beam. In fact, if Raichu just uses Seismic Toss as Parasect or Vileplume switches in, Raichu might just win the encounter, as two Seismic Tosses into a Hyper Beam can KO. And this all assumes that Raichu stays in, which it doesn't have to. So much of this tier completely walls Parasect and Vileplume. Fire-type Pokemon like Moltres and Charizard blank it entirely, but other stuff like Mr. Mime, Clefable, and any Water-type Pokemon can switch in and easily dispatch them. Outside of barely checking Raichu, these Pokemon are pretty close to worthless in this tier.

So the issue here is twofold. Number one is that many of Raichu's best checks are pretty bad. They can't do too much outside of checking Raichu and maybe spreading status. Clefable is the exception, as it is obviously a lot better as a Pokemon, but is not a great Raichu check, especially considering it is often busy checking the opposing Clefable or Mr. Mime. The second issue is that it requires way too many Pokemon to check. You need to devote multiple team slots just to check Raichu. The worst part is that, outside of Exeggcute, most Raichu checks offer no utility for other common threats like Mr. Mime, Moltres, Charizard, Nidoking, and Kabutops. You need to run multiple dismal Pokemon specifically for Raichu and virtually nothing else. Running multiple terrible frail Pokemon is completely incompatible with the offensive meta that we have here. Raichu needs to go.

 

[phoopes]

Supporting a Poliwrath and Raichu ban, Shellnuts and Volk as usual have laid out pretty great posts on why.

Not for supporting a Poliwhirl or Amnesia ban just yet, however. I’d like to see how the meta shakes out after the two biggest threats go. I think Poliwhirl and Amnesia in general will be better than they were pre-alpha because of no Venusaur but I don’t think they’ll be broken enough to be banned. I could be wrong though! We’ll just have to wait and see.

But as for right now, Wrath and Chu need to go, certainly.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

OK, let's say we ban Raichu, now who's going to stop Amnesia Poliwhirl? Electrode can't, since it may get hit on the switch in and then Golem will arrive, which will end in Electrode dying after many switches, it can explode when it is low on energy, but Golem will come in again to get chip damage from it.

Ban Raichu if you want, but then don't blame me if you don't find a Poliwhirl Counter. Oh by the way, Poliwhilr also learns Hypnosis, which makes it even more threatening.

 

[Volk]

Well, this is why I'd like to look at banning Poliwhirl and/or Amnesia as well. We should not have to count on a broken Pokemon to handle another broken Pokemon, we should just ban them both. I still hold that Poliwhirl should be banned, and this opinion has garnered some traction, and will likely only gain more in the absence of Raichu. I wouldn't worry too much about this, as Poliwhirl may leave, and we will pretty much have fixed RBY NU.

I also just wanted to provide a little more information on why I think Raichu must be banned. Put simply, Raichu completely ruins the dynamics of the offensive side of NU. Pre-alpha NU was very well balanced because there was no one definitive offensive Pokemon. The meta had multiple attackers, both physcial and special, that varied in prominence in the meta. These included (in no particular order): Mr. Mime, Charizard, Moltres, Kabutops, Nidoking, Fearow, Raticate, Electrode, and so on. What made NU interesting is, not only do each of these Pokemon have solid defensive counterplay (something Raichu mostly lacks), they also have complex interplay among each other. Each of these offensive Pokemon serve as respectable answers to each other. For example, Kabutops walls Moltres and Fearow, but Mr. Mime can beat Kabutops while also having some difficulty with Moltres and Fearow. The offensive Pokemon in this tier complement each other, and no one stands as dominant. Nidoking is the only one that doesn't really have any really bad matchups, but it also happens to be the second slowest, meaning any combination of attackers should be able to take it down. The tier had a very good natural balance to it that prevented any type of team from becoming too powerful. Raichu dismantles this whole relationship, as it matches up well against pretty much every offensive Pokemon, either by virtue of its speed or coverage (often both). Raichu can easily take out, or even 1v1, pretty much every offensive Pokemon I listed, meaning most offensive options are irrelevant, and the meta ends up being way more centralized. Raichu has no defensive checks and no offensive answers. It really must be banned.

 

[Sevi 7]

OK, let's say we ban Raichu, now who's going to stop Amnesia Poliwhirl? Electrode can't, since it may get hit on the switch in and then Golem will arrive, which will end in Electrode dying after many switches, it can explode when it is low on energy, but Golem will come in again to get chip damage from it.

Ban Raichu if you want, but then don't blame me if you don't find a Poliwhirl Counter. Oh by the way, Poliwhilr also learns Hypnosis, which makes it even more threatening.

Click to collapse...

I need to go to bed, but I just want to quickly point out that banning Raichu makes Poliwhirl more manageable. In Pre-Alpha, teams without Electrode and Venusaur were able to handle Poliwhirl, because other water pokemon were a lot better before. If Pokemon like Blastoise and Dewgong are able to be relevant again, then they can come in a grief Hydro + Blizz Poliwhirl. If Poli is Hydro + Psychic, then Egg can comfortably run Rest again, and can switch-in more. There's some other options too, but those Pokemon are fairly common.
Now, I do understand that Poliwhril is powerful and can get as much as 2 KOs + a sleep, if a team isn't well prepared. So, with Venu gone, that could mean that we may need to look into Poliwhirl or even Amnesia one of these days as well. However, I think we need to see how things go. A Raichu + Poliwrath ban will not make Poliwhirl unbeatable though.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Ok, since there is unanimous support for the Poliwrath ban, I think from this point on we should just play with Wrath banned.

As yet there is still no official process for tiering this stuff though, so I dunno when this will be reflected on the sim. I am slowly working through the channels, but I dont have too much time these days. But anyway you split it, a unanimous decision is obviously going to pass whatever the process ends up being.

Raichu at this point I think could be questioned, so I am a little reluctant to move forward with that now, but we can come back to that in a week or so.

 

[pac]

Poliwrath has been banned in the simulator and is now NUBL!

I for one am very curious to see what the meta now looks like. Pokemon like Moltres and Exeggcute being able to run Rest now is huuuuge. I still believe Raichu to be broken and expect that it will be banned in the coming days. Also, I think Primeape has some real potential as an offensive threat. Great speed, being faster than Nidoking and Mr. Mime, and might be able to force some important damage through its coverage.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Ok, here goes my argument for changing how we think about NU tiering.

First off, a bit about historical tiering. So a long time ago, tiering had two purposes. It was used to indicate viability (like current viability rankings) and it was supposed to generate playable metagames. So things would be determined UU due to their practicality in OU and then you would need a Borderline Tier to try to make that balanced. Except, that the borderline tier was also kind of part of the viability rankings, so the borderlines tended to be things that worked better in OU than the other UU stuff. Then this kinda reached down into NU as well. Like, NU was for stuff that was bad in both OU and UU. But by bad in OU, I mean that it had to kinda be worse in OU than any of the UU stuff. Because the tiers were used for viability rankings, and if something was better than some UU pokemon in OU the viability rankings had to reflect that.

Eventually we figured out that trying to cram both use cases into one list was a bad idea, and that we should separate viability, and base the metagame ban lists off of usage.

Except, RBY doesnt do that. RBY uses viability rankings, it just makes separate viability rankings for each tier.

So the nice thing about that is that its probably a lot more stable that way. Using ladder stats gives us the likes of Lapras, Slowbro, Dragonite, Golem, Persian, Victreebel and potentially Charizard jumping in and out of UU all the time, depending on how we do things. One of the issues we have for all of this is a small amount of data and a small amount of pokemon.

So once we decided to use viability rankings, we then had the question of where the cutoff should be. And for that, we basically just followed what was called UU at the time, which had previously been known as BL. And remember this was decided pretty recently. For a while it seemed like Golem might remain OU despite being ranked lower than Dragonite.

There is also a big difference between OU viability rankings and UU viability rankings. OU viability rankings are based on a statistical method ran over a survey of players. UU viability rankings are based on Eb0la's opinion. I am not trying to suggest that I think the UU viability rankings arent accurate, just that they are not the same as the OU ones.

So the point I am getting at here is that there is really no reason to think that our current cutoff is fundamentally correct. It's basically entirely unique in all of Pokemon and it's a recent decision.

I think it is worth stopping and having a good think about how the cutoff should be determined.

So I think there are a few factors that we should think about with the cutoff.

NU should be distinct from UU
Right this is the whole point right. NU is an opportunity to use things that aren't used in UU. But there is some complexity to this right. There's no real obvious way to decide how much UU usage is too much for something to be used in NU.

But UU is a very strange metagame, the way it is dominated and shaped by Tentacruel shouldn't be underestimated. Dugtrio is not usually all that good of a Pokemon at all. I'm pretty sure that it's UU domination is almost entirely down to the impact of Tentacruel. There is probably a reasonable case to make that removing Tenta, Nite, Hypno, and Kadabra is enough to completely overhaul the metagame. Bearing in mind that RBY just doesn't have all that many Pokemon.

On the other hand, If we were to include the C's then we probably end up with the scenario where in both UU and NU the grass types that get used are exactly the same. While in NU they might be staples for all teams but in UU they are a nice option if you want to use a grass type, it's a bit lame for it to be the exact same mons either way.

Some degree of stability would be nice
This is one of my bigger concerns. I think the UU viability rankings struggle with a lack of data. If we follow them too strictly, I am worried that things could change wildly depending on current UU fashion trends. I honestly believe that Kabutops, Clefable and Dewgong all could easily find themselves ranked just as high as Venusaur in UU. Also if Victreebel drops to UU, does Venusaur drop back to NU? These would all be pretty drastic changes to NU. Maybe we should just live with them? The alternative is to not tie NU so closely to UU viability. This might sound outrageous, but, to be fair, this is really how every other old-gen lower tier is managed.

NU should be a diverse metagame
The threat of mono Fire looms ominously over this tier. This is kinda why I want people to stick it out with Raichu for a bit. I think having good mons that aren't fire types is pretty important. Where we put that cutoff is going to have a big impact on the diversity of the tier.

It might be good to have a similar number of Pokemon in UU as in OU
Maybe? I dont think this is especially important, but it is a nice sorta heuristic for where we are roughly supposed to be?

NU should be fun to play
Ok, this, to me, is the thing that really matters. RBY NU is not going to be a part of SPL any time soon. It's an unofficial metagame, and for a while there, it was just really fucking fun.

With the FWG cores NU felt like pure Pokemon. No unnecessary complexity, just a type chart, status, stat boosting and damage. Recovery was primarily from rest or Porygon, both which obviously have big tradeoffs. There was basically no pp wasting, no hazards, no passive recovery, partial trapping was present but hardly dominant. Maybe it would be cool to just ban the partial trapping altogether.

But without the FWG core, then you can fall into the situation where there is just never any reason to switch. The game turns into a sequence of trades and its incredibly boring.

Like, imagine a team of Mr. Mime, Clefable, Wigglytuff, Moltres, Raticate, Dewgong playing against itself. Do you ever switch? Like, is it ever worth it to switch Moltres out of Dewgong in order to avoid the blizzard 2hko, when whatever you just switched in will be 2hkoed instead? I guess you just play out the Dewgong pp war... But, the amount of decisions you actually have to make in a battle like that seems very small.

Pre-Alpha NU was all about doubling and pivoting to your biggest threats to maximise your damage. I suspect that if we had a lot of top players playing it heavily it would probably get very stale, very quickly, but I don't know that we are going to get anything too sophisticated out of the remaining 120 or so RBY mons.

So this is basically where I am at with NU. I think it was better with Venusaur, and that Tangela wouldn't be a terrible addition either. Omastar would be an interesting thing to try at least... Dodrio might be fine with Golem and Omastar about, Haunter wouldn't be too crazy, Electabuzz is obviously just gonna be an alternative to Raichu. I think there is a lot of good balance here, it might kinda suck to introduce all of these things together though.

The UU As I think we can be pretty confident aren't in any danger of dropping. They are just a class ahead of the stuff above. It feels to me like this might be a better way to sort things out. But I am convinced the tier needs some viable Grass types, and Vileplume, Parasect or Exeggcute dont cut it.

 

[Sevi 7]

I'm going to give my thoughts on the matter.

I'll preface this by saying that I really don't have a problem with using the VR to determine tier lists. RBY isn't the only gen to do this. GSC is doing the same thing for their lower tiers, and I think it's working out great for them. They even have tiers much much lower than RBYs without any issue. Just like for RBY, GSC has determined that B- is the cutoff for the tier. When GSC PU was first being made, I'll admit I had my questions about whether it should be different, but after seeing it in action multiple times now, I've come to the conclusion that B- is a proper cutoffpoint.

There is also a big difference between OU viability rankings and UU viability rankings. OU viability rankings are based on a statistical method ran over a survey of players. UU viability rankings are based on Eb0la's opinion. I am not trying to suggest that I think the UU viability rankings arent accurate, just that they are not the same as the OU ones.

So the point I am getting at here is that there is really no reason to think that our current cutoff is fundamentally correct. It's basically entirely unique in all of Pokemon and it's a recent decision.

Click to collapse...

First of all, I don't think it's fair to say that UU is based off of Eb0la's opinion. It's true that he has a big determining factor to what goes where, but there is community input to it. It's no secret that I don't agree with everything on the VR, but I'm not going to go as far to say that. That's mostly semantics, but I did want to put that out there.

Second, RBY's tiering system is not actually unique. Using B- as the cutoff is the new norm for establishing old gen lower tiers. as I stated in the preface, GSC has done it, but other tiers have done it as well, such as DPP PU. If DPP ZU is ever established, then B- will be the cutoff point for that as well. I'm not saying that because others are doing it, that it's right. But it's not really all that unique.

Third, it sounds more like that how we determine what gets ranked on the VR needs to be better established than any kind of problem with the cutoff. If we can have a VR more similar to OU's, then wouldn't it be just as good as OU's?

NU should be distinct from UU
Right this is the whole point right. NU is an opportunity to use things that aren't used in UU. But there is some complexity to this right. There's no real obvious way to decide how much UU usage is too much for something to be used in NU.

But UU is a very strange metagame, the way it is dominated and shaped by Tentacruel shouldn't be underestimated. Dugtrio is not usually all that good of a Pokemon at all. I'm pretty sure that it's UU domination is almost entirely down to the impact of Tentacruel. There is probably a reasonable case to make that removing Tenta, Nite, Hypno, and Kadabra is enough to completely overhaul the metagame. Bearing in mind that RBY just doesn't have all that many Pokemon.

On the other hand, If we were to include the C's then we probably end up with the scenario where in both UU and NU the grass types that get used are exactly the same. While in NU they might be staples for all teams but in UU they are a nice option if you want to use a grass type, it's a bit lame for it to be the exact same mons either way.

Click to collapse...

This one thing where my experience with GSC NU/PU can come into play. GSC NU is a vast tier with a lot of viable Pokemon. The C rank Pokemon of the tier are honestly good as well. So, when PU was being established we had a ton of Pokemon that are honestly good in NU. I thought that maybe we should change the cutoff, so that way PU doesn't have all of these Pokemon that are also seen in NU. (because there are a ton of Pokemon that can be used in NU). However, after seeing PU come out, I was more than pleasantly surprised that it worked out really nicely. Yeah the best C rank mons were also really good in PU, but seeing those C rank mons become the stars of the show and seeing them be able to really get the most out of their abilities, was a lot better than keeping than in NU, where they were good, but couldn't be at their best. Without the top NU mons there, the tier was also fresh and unique. It didn't matter that there were so many C rank mons. Not having the best mons like Xatu and Weezing made it a completely different metagame. So, I don't think that changing a cutoff so that we don't see some of the same Pokemon twice is a good argument for uniqueness between the tiers.

Some degree of stability would be nice
This is one of my bigger concerns. I think the UU viability rankings struggle with a lack of data. If we follow them too strictly, I am worried that things could change wildly depending on current UU fashion trends. I honestly believe that Kabutops, Clefable and Dewgong all could easily find themselves ranked just as high as Venusaur in UU. Also if Victreebel drops to UU, does Venusaur drop back to NU? These would all be pretty drastic changes to NU. Maybe we should just live with them? The alternative is to not tie NU so closely to UU viability. This might sound outrageous, but, to be fair, this is really how every other old-gen lower tier is managed.

Click to collapse...

Maybe this is controversial, I don't know, but I don't think tier shifts are bad. I know for a lot of RBY OU veterans, the stability of a tier is nice, but I don't think that should be a determining factor for the lower tiers. If Vic drops then maybe Venu drops, we'd have to see. Yes this would shake up the tier, but that's not really a bad thing. Adding or taking away Pokemon does not mean there is anything wrong with the metagame or tier, imo. Also there's no way we can expect stability in such young tiers. Yes, UU has been around for a while now, but as I've said time and time again there's little to no experimenting. And when we do experiment, it often leads to new mons being found viable. Venu, Tang, Aero, Gong and Poli were all given new life and new viability in the tier after some experimenting. Some players, like Lusch and Volk, do play more experimental stuff. But time and time again people play the same Tent + Kadabra + Hypno + Nite + Dug teams. So, who knows what's out there that could easily beat this.

Speaking of Nite, with a Nite ban around the corner, people are going to need to change up their teams a bit and that stability is definitely going to change at least a little bit. But again, I don't think that's a bad thing, especially because it's for the health of the tier. I think that if we try to force stability, then we're actually doing the tiering system more harm than good, as we're really trying to force stagnation.

NU should be a diverse metagame
The threat of mono Fire looms ominously over this tier. This is kinda why I want people to stick it out with Raichu for a bit. I think having good mons that aren't fire types is pretty important. Where we put that cutoff is going to have a big impact on the diversity of the tier.

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As the person who first started using Toxic Wrap teams, let me just say that they are never that potent. Yes, they can win for stupid reasons, but they can also fall flat on their face. Consistency is a key issue with these things, and Toxic Wrap teams don't have any. Yes, fire spam can be viable, but it's not some big killer. When it was at its peak popularity, it was a meta trend and nothing more. Right before Poliwrath and Raichu were dropped, fire spam wasn't even played much anymore.
Also, if there's something wrong with the tier then we should address those problems directly, rather than use the cutoff as a way to "fix" the tier. If something is unhealthy, we can get rid of it. We got rid of Golduck, we got rid of Poliwrath, and we can continue to get rid of things until we have a healthy meta.

It might be good to have a similar number of Pokemon in UU as in OU
Maybe? I dont think this is especially important, but it is a nice sorta heuristic for where we are roughly supposed to be?

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I don't think NU is going to have this problem. Pre-alpha was the most diverse and had the most variety of all of RBY's metas. It's not going to change too much.

NU should be fun to play
Ok, this, to me, is the thing that really matters. RBY NU is not going to be a part of SPL any time soon. It's an unofficial metagame, and for a while there, it was just really fucking fun.

Click to collapse...

I really hate tiering for this. Fun is super subjective and if we try to start tier for fun, we're really pandering to a niche audience. Is GSC OU a great tier? Yes? Is it fun? Well general consensus would say no. Does that mean we should care about those people? No. Yes a tier should be generally enjoyable, but I don't think that's ever going to be an issue. The only time it's not generally enjoyable is when there's something unhealthy in the meta, and again, we should address those problems specifically.

With the FWG cores NU felt like pure Pokemon. No unnecessary complexity, just a type chart, status, stat boosting and damage. Recovery was primarily from rest or Porygon, both which obviously have big tradeoffs. There was basically no pp wasting, no hazards, no passive recovery, partial trapping was present but hardly dominant. Maybe it would be cool to just ban the partial trapping altogether.

But without the FWG core, then you can fall into the situation where there is just never any reason to switch. The game turns into a sequence of trades and its incredibly boring.

Like, imagine a team of Mr. Mime, Clefable, Wigglytuff, Moltres, Raticate, Dewgong playing against itself. Do you ever switch? Like, is it ever worth it to switch Moltres out of Dewgong in order to avoid the blizzard 2hko, when whatever you just switched in will be 2hkoed instead? I guess you just play out the Dewgong pp war... But, the amount of decisions you actually have to make in a battle like that seems very small.

Pre-Alpha NU was all about doubling and pivoting to your biggest threats to maximise your damage. I suspect that if we had a lot of top players playing it heavily it would probably get very stale, very quickly, but I don't know that we are going to get anything too sophisticated out of the remaining 120 or so RBY mons.

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Again, this is super subjective. I'm not disregarding your opinion, I agree with it actually. However, I don't want one council member's opinion about the "feel" of a tier to be a determining factor on tier at all. It's great that you and I enjoy the tier in that state. However, it shouldn't make any difference. Maybe what comes next you and I won't enjoy as much, but others will. It's sad that we won't enjoy the tier like we did before, but the tier absolutely shouldn't change at all because of that.

So this is basically where I am at with NU. I think it was better with Venusaur, and that Tangela wouldn't be a terrible addition either. Omastar would be an interesting thing to try at least... Dodrio might be fine with Golem and Omastar about, Haunter wouldn't be too crazy, Electabuzz is obviously just gonna be an alternative to Raichu. I think there is a lot of good balance here, it might kinda suck to introduce all of these things together though.

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I'm going to ask you to slam on the brakes here. I'm going to hard disagree with this. We're talking about moving meta well established Pokemon down from UU, because they might be interesting to have them in NU? Absolutely no way. Especially if we're talking about moving the entire B rank down to NU. There is absolutely no way I can support this.

The UU As I think we can be pretty confident aren't in any danger of dropping. They are just a class ahead of the stuff above. It feels to me like this might be a better way to sort things out. But I am convinced the tier needs some viable Grass types, and Vileplume, Parasect or Exeggcute dont cut it.

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I'm not going to support a cutoff change, because some grass-types may not cut it. We don't know how this tier will turn out and we don't know what's going to happen. We don't even know if Raichu should stay or not. We need to wait a long time and have a lot more happen before we start talking about making fundamental changes to how tiers are established in NU.

tl;dr I see where you're coming from, but I'm going to disagree on the cutoff changes. Let's make the UU VR better, address specific problems as needed, and not put our subjective opinions as a reason to make these changes.

P.S. RBY NU Pre-Alpha ain't going anywhere. We can always play RBY NU -Raichu + Venusaur. That doesn't mean it has to be the official NU tier though.

 

[Volk]

I don't really have the time or desire to write out a long or sophisticated post right now, but can we go ahead and ban Raichu now? I know there hasn't been a ton of activity in RBY NU lately, but I think this is because the meta kind of sucks, and I think Raichu is a pretty big part of that sucking. Last I checked, nobody really wanted it around and banning Poliwrath hasn't done anything to keep it in check (and why would it?). I also still think Poliwhirl is incredibly broken and makes NU borderline unplayable, so I'd still really like to see it gone. Can we do something about this soon please?

edit: Fire Spin and other forms of Partial-trapping are kind of dumb too, but we can get to those later.

 

[pac]

I don't really have the time or desire to write out a long or sophisticated post right now, but can we go ahead and ban Raichu now? I know there hasn't been a ton of activity in RBY NU lately, but I think this is because the meta kind of sucks, and I think Raichu is a pretty big part of that sucking. Last I checked, nobody really wanted it around and banning Poliwrath hasn't done anything to keep it in check (and why would it?). I also still think Poliwhirl is incredibly broken and makes NU borderline unplayable, so I'd still really like to see it gone. Can we do something about this soon please?

edit: Fire Spin and other forms of Partial-trapping are kind of dumb too, but we can get to those later.

Click to collapse...

Fully support, would like to do a more indepth look.

Raichu does a handful of things to the tier.

1) Forces teams to run Exeggcute or another shit grass, which are all quite ass to have to use. They're slow as balls, weak to Fires and Nidoking, and only really work once or twice.

2) It majorly nerfs waters like Kabutops, Blastoise, and Sedra. It also yeets Golem from relevance. This is a terrible combination that allows Fire Spam (3 Fires + Raichu + Nidoking + Exeggcute) to completely curbstomp the tier. You see this during Pre-Alpha NU, where after Golem dropped Fire Spam took a nosedive in usage, as it is just that much more inconsistent.

3) The banning of Poliwrath didnt do enough to fix the issue of a lack of defensive counterplay, as Raichu is still just too potent of an offensive threat.

Overall, Raichu causes the metagame to be extremely Hyper Offensive, encourages degenerate tactics such as Toxic + Fire Spin spam, and is overall just not beneficial to the tier. The only issue I see up front is Poliwhirl possibly becoming a problem, but like Volk said that Pokemon is very un-skillful and degenerate as well, and could possibly see a ban as well.

This thing has been a problem since day 1 of Alpha, and was more broken than Poliwrath.
Ban Raichu, and possibly Poliwhirl too.