Lower Tiers RBY NU Hub

Volk · Apr 24, 2021

Okay, so it seems like nobody is opposed to banning Raichu, so we will go ahead and do it. We will begin to take the necessary efforts to ban Raichu in approximately 3 days.

If nobody raises a legitimate argument concerning why Raichu should not be banned from RBY NU, it will be banned in approximately 3 days. You must post now if you have any objections.

Volk · Apr 26, 2021

Double Post.

For the sake of fairness and transparency, I would like to give a final warning concerning the Raichu ban. Once again, if no concerns are raised, Raichu will be banned in roughly 24 hours. If you have objections, but lack the time to raise them, please at least reserve a post (in which case we will probably grant like an extra day). Otherwise, business will carry on as usual. Thank you.

We will begin to ban Raichu in about 24 hours. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

Hipmonlee · Apr 27, 2021

Volk asked me to post.

Raichu is now banned from NU

Kris could you please update this at your convenience.

And to get people started, try Poli, Clef, Mime, Kingler/Golem, Dewgong, Kabutops or something similar...

Good luck!

[edit] - lol no tabs in smogon posts I guess..

Sevi 7 · May 21, 2021

So, I've updated the VR with the changes. Things are still VERY volatile, and I don't expect things to stick around for long. However, here's some reasoning behindwhy things are where they are.

A Ranks

:Blastoise: Blastoise
Blastoise is still the best Water-type tank in the tier. A fairly wide movepool, with decent stats, makes Blastoise a solid contender in the meta, and one that can handle quite a few threats.

:Charizard: Charizard
Unfortunately fires aren't doing that well right now, since the meta is a bit of Water + Ground spam atm. Zard is still probably the best Fire-type right now. But that's the best of one of the lesser types. It's still a good mon.

:Clefable: Clefable
Clefable also hasn't changed much. It's a solid Mime check and has a wide movepool. It also hits hard with STAB Body Slam and/or Hyper Beam and can carries Thunder Wave and/or Sing.

:Dewgong: Dewgong
Fires have seemingly dipped since Raichu's ban, and that's only helped Dewgong. It's still a great anti-water water-type. STAB Blizzard also hits incredibly hard. All in all, Dewgong is still a good Pokemon in this metagame.

:Electrode: Electrode
Electrode started creeping into the meta right at the end of Pre-Alpha, and it now finds itself at front in center in the meta. Being the only truly effective Electric-type, Electrode has become an important attacker on teams. Although, being hard walled by Golem is a huge issue, people are still getting the most they can out of Electrode.

:Golem: Golem
Speaking of Golem, Golem finds itself, once again, as one of the best mons in the meta. STAB QuakeSlide and Boom is great. Being anti-Electrode also helps out a lot as well. Golem seems to have some viability in every tier, but NU is where it shines the most.

:Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime
Still one of the best, if not the best, Special attackers in the meta. Psychic + Thunderbolt is great coverage and Thunder Wave is a huge boon as well. Mime is still one of the top 3 pokes in the meta and I've seen it called for S. I think it's not quite there yet personally, but it may be RBY NU's first S one day.

:Nidoking: Nidoking
Nidoking is probably the best mixed attacker right now. It has an incredible and wide movepool, combined with good stats and Ground-typing. Nidoking is another one the of the top 3 Pokemon right now and it's really living up to its name as the King.

:Poliwhirl: Poliwhirl
This thing is a really standard lead at the moment, and gets used outside of the position as well. Hypnosis + Amnesia is still, and will probably always, be the name of its game here. It's simple but can be effective. However, I have a feeling that with time its flaw will be figured out and exploited and it will drop in popularity. Maybe even back down to B Rank, like in Pre-Alpha.

B Ranks

:Dragonair: Dragonair
It's still doing stupid things with AgiliWrap. Combine it with Toxic and watch your opponent scream in pain.

:Drowzee: Drowzee
One of the most solid Mime checks. Drowzee can run T Wave, S Toss, Hypnosis, Psychic, and/or Rest to prepare it for whatever the team needs. Nothing has really changed about this Poke either.

:Exeggcute: Exeggcute
With Raichu out of the meta, Egg can no longer hold a place in A. It's doing what it did in Pre-Alpha now. However, it isn't supported by or supporting Venusaur. So, it may be a little worse than before. However, Fire isn't as popular as before, so that is an advantage for it as well. I'd say that it's a mixed bag for Egg. However, it is still a solid B mon.

:Fearow: Fearow
Without Venusaur or Poliwrath, Fearow has lost some of its appeal and it is now in B Ranks once again. It's still a great, hard-hitting, mon. However, there's little that it can take advantage of like before.

:Kabutops: Kabutops
Tops has had a huge fall from grace thanks to the Water-Ground meta overtaking the FWG meta. Tops can no longer take advantage of its anti-fire potential, and must rely on its good stats and moves like Swords Dance. That still makes it good, but it's not the wall it used to be.

:Kingler: Kingler
With Electrode being the only thing to hit it with STAB Super-Effectively, Kingler has found some room in the meta to grow. Kingler + Golem is a solid core right now, and is fairly safe bet to bring to a game. I don't know if it'll last, but Kingler has found a place to call home for now.

:Moltres: Moltres
Moltres is really the only fire Pokemon that is used besides Zard. It has APT + Toxic, but also strong Fire Blast and good stats overall. It's lost some popularity, but it's still a solid fire mon.

:Ninetales: Ninetales
People aren't really experimenting with Ninetales, and so we don't really know where to put it. I'll keep it in B for now, since in theory it's still a meta mon.

:Pinsir: Pinsir
Pinsir is a powerful SD attacker but also gets Slash and Bind. Fire is less common and teams are seemingly a bit slower, so Pinsir is seemingly good. However, Golem can give it some problems and it hasn't quite found itself being used a lot. Still a good mon though.

:Rapidash: Rapidash
Rapidash is another Pokemon that is good in theory, but isn't getting tried out. So, it's here until we can see if theorymon is accurate or not.

:Raticate: Raticate
Raticate is still a powerful attacker with good speed, STAB B Slam + H Beam and Super Fang. Golem can make sweeping with it difficult. However, Rat is still a solid mon.

:Porygon: Porygon
Honestly, Porygon feels like it's barely hanging in there. It doesn't feel like the anti-water mon that it used to be, and it may even drop from B, if things don't turn around for it.

:Seadra: Seadra
Seadra hasn't changed. It's an Agility sweeper, that also can have some defensive capabilities against other waters.

:Venomoth: Venomoth
Venomoth is still doing the same thing as well. Double Powder + a couple of attacks to cripple and revenge kill and opponent's team.

C Ranks

:Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
Aero is the second fastest mon in the game with great anti-Fire typing. However, it's not really used a lot right now, and defensively it feels weak. It may be graduating to UU after picking up popularity there, so don't get too comfortable with it as an NU mon.

:Arcanine: Arcanine
Arcanine is the biggest loser unfortunately. Without Fire-types to wall and being weak to the Water and Ground-types that took their place, there is very little reason to use Arcanine right now. It may not even be a C Ranked Pokemon right now. But I'll keep it here for now, since it was such a big part of the meta before.

:Nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
Double Nido teams seem to still have some use. So, Nidoqueen is still chilling out among the C Ranks. Nothing has really changed for it, but it may be found to be good and may even move up one of these days.

:Weezing: Weezing
Weezing still seems to be doing the same thing. Golem makes its job harder, but that hasn't nullified it or anything. Maybe it'll be better in the future, but for now Weezing is a C Rank mon like the rest.

:Wigglytuff: Wigglytuff
This might be an underrated mon right now and it may be B Rank worthy in the near future. Mime + Clef + Wiggly is a decent core when combined with some slower mon(s). Definitely something to keep in mind in the near future.

emma · Jun 8, 2021

Hey, this will now serve as the general RBY NU thread (VR, Metagame Discussion, etc.)

The Pre-Alpha Thread can be found here for historical purposes, while the original RBY NU thread can be found here (archived because it had nothing of real value).

Plague von Karma · Jun 13, 2021

So I'm looking at this tier more and I really like "PinTops". These two Pokemon, while serving similar roles, cover each other quite well. Pinsir covers Kabutops's Ground weakness, but more importantly, Kabutops covers Pinsir's Fire weakness well. This makes for a really nice offensive core that can still function on the backfoot, all while being the silly SD+HB bots that I love so much. It's kind of obvious stuff, but the synergy seems to work well in practice when you factor in Bind on Pinsir. Extend this to a partial trapping core - which the abundant Fire-types of the tier gladly fulfill - and you already have a pretty good path when teambuilding.

I built this team alongside some people in the RBY Community Discord which seems to sufficiently support this core, aiming for short games while still having Moltres to grind. I also like Toxic Rapidash to help check Lead Fire Spin users while supporting the trapping core. Chuck on Blastoise alongside Kabutops and you have a way to shut down any Fire-type in the tier even further. Thanks to Shellnuts, Volk, SBPC, and PacAttacc for their helpful takes.

Nara · Jun 13, 2021

I've been waiting super hard on this post because I was worried about quality but I'm just gonna edit in the lengthier parts as they're not as important as just me wanting to stir the pot and bring meta discussion to forum.

So for starters, myself and pacattacc made a personal VR for our own use and honestly its a post of its own, but I'll put it here in a hide tag and briefly explain some of the upper ranks.

unordered ranks
S Rank
Mr. Mime

A+ Rank
Raticate
Blastoise
Rapidash
Nidoking
Golem
Clefable

A Rank
Charizard
Moltres
Electrode
Kabutops

B Rank
Arcanine
Poliwhirl
Ninetales
Seadra
Kingler
Venomoth
Dewgong
Pinsir
Exeggcute

C Rank
Drowzee
Mankey
Wigglytuff
Dragonair
Nidoqueen
Fearow
Porygon

C Rank but only because they can use sleep
Gastly
Vileplume
(end vr)

S rank Mime is because its the best mon in the tier without contest, fills practically every role and then some. Split A ranks is because originally it was one rank but it was so ridiculously large we just cut it in two. Will probably edit in individual explanations at a future date.

Playing the tier has been a blast as of recent and a huge meta discussion point right now on discord is sleep so i want to throw in my own two cents on it, being that I agree sleep to an extent is ridiculously strong but that's just the nature of RBY Sleep, and honestly despite the status being damning, the excellence of Fire Spin + Toxic on mons such as Rapidash and Ninetales can't be understated right now, so if you sack a Water-type such as Blastoise or Kabutops to sleep it's a lot more managable.

Speaking of Rapidash, I personally think its the best lead in the tier right now, due to the aforementioned SpinTox and Charizard is a very close cut second, so leads like Aerodactyl and Toxic Electrode are great to experiment with as they can play around them a good deal.

Raticate is absurd atm and honestly with sleep support is the best cleaner in the tier so it's definitely a mon that we should look into using a lot more. Additionally Pinsir is a lot better than most give it credit especially with combinations like PinTops so its worth building around if you want a really strong late game plan.

Lastly I think type spam in general can be brought up in this post, particularly Fire and Water spam, as they're very solid archetypes with combos like Rapidash + Moltres or Blastoise + Kabutops respectively. That's all I got for now, hope to see this meta grow and maybe get an updated VR soon.

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d · Jul 2, 2021

Leads:
Sleep is the centralizing force around NU leads. Venomoth and Poli create so much pressure and potential if they land Sleep Powder / Hypnosis that these two create the entire lead meta around their threat. It's hard to justify anything else that isn't them or their checks, as you simply would be missing out or risking too much right from the go. While it's not perfect, I think a large majority of what works as leads is pretty clear at the moment. I'll break down my personal lead VR that I posted in the RBY Discord earlier:

Phenomenal speed tier with enough bulk to live most super effective hits bar crits then land sleep reliably. 100% worth it, especially with a probable Stun Spore following, and Psychic + Edge wears down everything. Slightly winning odds vs poli, "loses" to faster fires but the risk of them missing can be rewarded with sleep, Trode can twave and hope for a miss or two but still can't reliably prevent sleep in the first couple turns, and everything else unless hax either loses to sleep or has to hax hard to prevent sleep.

: Everyone knows by now what Poli does, but its unreliable Hypnosis and competitive Speed makes it worse than Veno imo. There's still a lot in Poli's favor due to the reward being worth the risk, but it's a gamble each time and I find Veno doing the same and more.

Outspeeding and Fire Spinning to safety is usually safe. Beating Veno + _oli is very important, but with spin's inaccuracy, you'll be punished hard on misses. Chari is best on general teams, Rapi too if you went rapi + chari or on fire spam, ninetales is like rapi but people swear by its Special stat so in general these three are somewhat interchangeable and do the same. I'd consider "sleepers and fast fire spinners" to be thee leads right now.

Mime is bulky + strong enough to handle anything and its accurate twave gives it an edge on the speed tie vs poli + veno. However, it's still very likely to outright be put to sleep and be worthless; Mime has way too much mid-game potential to be put out of commission turn 1 so it's hard for me to justify lead Mime teams. When it does work out it can be worth it and there's some general safety to it, but you'll absolutely need back Egg / Drowz for the opposing Mime and you're missing out on one of the most threatening revenge killers if Mime's asleep... I'd rather use something more expendable to do much of the same.

Toxic on the Fire-types + even Poli isn't too bad, and if Aero is put to sleep then it's awesome for switching into fire spin spam. Very safe as a lead thanks to its Speed + expendability, and it also has a decent chance to crit + dodge Veno and beat that too! Not ranked higher only due to less experience with it but i can see it being a top 5ish lead later with more development.

It forces out most leads while scouting what ground the opp has, which is ok for some playstyles but inevitably, trode just doesn't make progress as a lead. Very prediction reliant and forces ugly 50/50s for everyone. Unless if Sub + Toxic sets catch on, i think trode is way better utilized mid-game to force stuff out and revenge kill rather than making a double switch turn 1 or praying the para'd Veno misses Sleep. In short, it's too risky.

I cant think of anything else that wouldn't straight up lose to sleep leads and be worth it. Lead Blastoise kinda checks fire leads and ig can afford to be put to sleep to help check fire spin later but then that's just a super passive lead... wouldn't aero just be better there, or another fire? Least then u attack first and have some good potential, while Nlastoise can still force out fires mid-game. The same could be said about Clefable, Porygon, Wig, and other mons; they're just too slow to be worth it. As for other fast mons, Arcanine's lack of Fire Spin makes it too vulnerable, Scyther / Fearow / Rat are too weak and vulnerable to Sleep + Fires, and something like Voltorb is expendable enough to work, maybe, but then you'd be using Voltorb lol. It's safe to say that everything else is too matchup or hax reliant to do anything better than the top leads are capable of.

:aerodactyl: > B: See above about being a top lead. Aero also counters Charizard, Moltres, Fearow, Pinsir, and Fire spam. That's a ton!!! Being faster than almost everything helps too and I can't see it as a bottom tier pick. Rest / Toxic utility with Edge + Fire Blast coverage and a high crit chance rounds it out, and it's only held back by its Water and Ice weaknesses. Otherwise, I find it as a great support mon and safety pick, totally worth it in the raichu- and poliwrath-less meta.

:mr. mime: > S: What I wrote in pre-alpha still applies here. No reason not to use it, just too good as a special attacker + check to itself, and every team needs at least one mime switch-in anyways. It's way too centralizing and good to avoid it when teambuilding, and its uniqueness also warrants S rank.

:venomoth: :nidoking: :clefable: :blastoise: :mr. mime: :charizard:
https://pokepast.es/0947dc2e45f2d39a
Here's my fav team rn. Makes good trades for Sub Nido + SD Charizard to capitalize on. The team lacks a Normal resistance and trading Mime for Mime isn't always the easiest, but in general the bulk of Clefable and good speed of Charizard makes up for these flaws. Lead Veno can also be saved for sacks, especially for Explosion. Additionally, if lead Veno goes in, then there's more than enough to capitalize and secure the sweep. If it doesn't, fishing with Nido and Chari are both two comeback options. Ice Beam on Blastoise because more PP to freeze vs the mirror is worth it; mid-game Blastoise stalloffs are very common nowadays.

Pondy Gator · Jul 25, 2021

Hiya! I'm experimenting with Charizard in NU right now. He seems really strong, as many people here have said. Swords Dance and Earthquake are definitely nice perks. good pairing with Rapidash as others have said too. Whatever future analysis happens for Zard, should probably mention the synergy with Dash in wearing down their checks.

pac · Aug 5, 2021

Due to changes in the UU VR (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-uu-viability-rankings.3647713/), Dewgong and Aerodactyl are no longer allowed in NU! Say goodbye to Ice-types in NU :(

Hipmonlee · Aug 6, 2021

Uhh.. we need to talk about whether we are waiting a year for this. It seemed pretty clear to me that that decision would also apply to UU and NU from the thread.

To kick the discussion off: I see no reason why this would not apply to OU--UU but not UU--NU.

Volk · Aug 6, 2021

I'm not totally informed on this topic and my opinion is subject to change, but I don't think the OU/UU Policy should necessarily apply to UU/NU, at least not yet. RBY NU, unlike OU and UU, isn't really an official tier in any capacity and it has never had an established core of Pokemon that compose it. It was just "the rest." Only right now has UU obtained a truly "official" composition. I think this is a good start point for RBY UU. Because NU really isn't anything (until now, for the same reason), I think UU should be able to pull from NU without a pause at this point in time.

Another really big reason to allow UU to pull from NU is that the last couple of months (maybe like the last 10-14 or so) has been the period of the most attention and play RBY UU has ever gotten. We had a Spotlight Tour, the founding of a dedicated server sporting over 400 members, the first set of legitimate published analyses in over a decade, and the most prestigious tour (UUFPL) in like 5 years. To put it bluntly, RBY UU was half-baked for a very long time. This isn't to ridicule old players or anything. This is just a statement of magnitude. When a tier is played by almost no one and extremely rarely, it is not going to be developed, regardless of how genuinely strong the players were (and they were strong, don't get me wrong; we still got people like Lusch from that era). Because of this major and recent paradigm shift, the older UU Viability Rankings honestly held almost no weight, so to pin this pretty arbitrary set of Pokemon to RBY UU is nonsensical. Comparing the old RBY UU Viability Rankings to the carefully-curated OU one that has reflected a meta that has been around much longer, was based on evidence gathered by much more play, and has been persistently propped up by the tiers greatest players for several years now just doesn't make sense. The current UU VR is the closest UU has been to the OU in terms of quality, by a lot.

Lastly, drawing the line just now really doesn't make much sense. We kicked Golem down to NU: no one cared. We sucked up Venusaur to UU: people cared, but there was no basis to fight it on. The only difference between then and now is a policy just passed. If EB0LA and Shellnuts got the VR moving along just a little faster (no shade by the way, just how things worked out), we would not even be having this discussion. They would have risen and that would have been it. If the VR was published at the time of the tier lock change, it would likely look the same as it does now; the changes were a long time coming, it was just a matter of when we finally decided to vote.

In summary, we can establish this policy in the future (perhaps after the next actual VR is published for UU), but it should not be in place for UU/NU as of now. Aerodactyl and Dewgong should stay in UU.

edit: refresh to check for edits please.

EB0LA · Aug 6, 2021

Echoing Volks post NU was still in Alpha/Beta stages, thus this policy that is in place for OU/UU does not currently affect UU/NU. How ever with this latest vr tier shift that was done to focus on the bottom portion of UU, we got Aerodactyl & Dewgong to rise. Now if anything, this would be the time to perhaps apply the policy in place for NU as well so NU can become more stable, and NU can officially begin. Up until now it was just the "rest" of the mons not used in UU.

Adding: I mentioned several times for NUers to not be comfortable with NU just yet, until UU finally "finished" tiering its tier to begin NU officially. Restating now with the last/latest VR update NU can now begin "officially".

Plague von Karma · Aug 6, 2021

Hipmonlee said:
Uhh.. we need to talk about whether we are waiting a year for this. It seemed pretty clear to me that that decision would also apply to UU and NU from the thread.

To kick the discussion off: I see no reason why this would not apply to OU--UU but not UU--NU.

We did talk about it. Not much, but we did. The reason the 2 revision policy was made was to account for how ridiculously optimised OU is while preserving another tier that is over a decade old. Not to mention the power level of every Pokemon that gets there compared to everything else. UU's VR doesn't have anywhere near as much "scrutiny" applied to it as OU's either: whether or not Dewgong rose was basically Shellnuts's choice, the last Es were designated to be Ds, etc.

It's also worth discussing that these are rises, not drops, which is where the revision policy we came up with gets a bit murky. Part of that policy (and thus the wording if you read that post) is to prevent drops from destabilising tiers. While this was in the context of two nuclear drops, two players got so terrified of Articuno rising that I couldn't not think about rises. Anyway, you're able to test the tier in that time period and decide a ban in advance. None of this can really apply to rises: the Pokemon has already been tested - extensively in fact - and keeping it down seems very odd. You could put them in NU by Technicality, but all reason to do so seems to be out the window.

If NU wasn't in an extremely early stage I would have vetted this much further, but the playerbase already dropped off a cliff when Venusaur left and these Pokemon weren't amazing there either. Unlike the other two tiers, this one is months old.

Hipmonlee · Aug 6, 2021

The point of the cutoff policy was explicitly to improve stability. It seems to me that the cutoff policy is more needed for NU rather than UU as OU is actually fairly stable.. The discussion over the policy clearly referred to NU and UU at various times and no one suggested it should only apply to one or the other. The fact that only UU was mentioned in PvK's post doesnt change the decision that was made by the community.

If stability is something you want for UU but not for NU I would like to hear an explanation as to why. That seems weird to me.

Personally, I am opposed to using different systems for different tiers. We should just stick with the one system.

Sure, now would be an arbitrary time to decide to start applying this rule, but so will any other time. I doubt very much NU will be particularly stable for a while. It makes sense to start to apply it at the same time it gets applied to UU, and that was what was we had previously agreed to in the cutoff thread. Also now is when we had planned to start to apply this policy in the thread.

Also the discussion in the cutoff thread clearly included rises as well as drops.

On a side note, can someone explain for me how the decision to name the B2 tier B2 and not C1 gets made? It looks to me kinda like Omastar possibly could be dropping rather than aerodactyl and dewgong rising? This was pretty much an unresolved issue from the cutoff thread.

Volk · Aug 6, 2021

Let me go through these points as I see them.

Hipmonlee said:
It seems to me that the cutoff policy is more needed for NU rather than UU as OU is actually fairly stable.

The existing NU really wasn't a tier. It was birthed before UU was finished. We all know that this NU was not supposed to be the final version. This NU has been a playground to test stuff prematurely and look into bans. It is unofficial by design. It isn't entitled to stability because it hasn't reached (a) a state of recognizability yet (no official VR, no set Pokemon, only like one tournament etc.) or (b) a meaningful list of Pokemon that comprise it (I will reiterate that the old UU VR was not very good, so to use it as the cutoff was mainly arbitrary; the new VR is significantly better, making it a much better and more meaningful cutoff to base NU off of).

Hipmonlee said:
Sure, now would be an arbitrary time to decide to start applying this rule, but so will any other time.

I already addressed this point in my original post. Now that UU has an actually meaningful VR, the cutoff for NU actually has some meaning. This means the NU of now is a lot more legitimate and, in my opinion, worth protecting. I want the policy you are describing to go in effect from here on out, now that the composition of legal Pokemon in NU is actually drawn from something of value. This response also addresses your points in the previous two paragraphs.

Hipmonlee said:
On a side note, can someone explain for me how the decision to name the B2 tier B2 and not C1 gets made? It looks to me kinda like Omastar possibly could be dropping rather than aerodactyl and dewgong rising?

Here's the thing: the Vapicuno method gives you two things, an order and clusters. An order is just the numerical rankings. Clusters refer to Pokemon that were "interchangeable," in the sense that they were likely to occupy the same area in the VR. This is where we get subranks. As far as what you call the tiers, the method doesn't help you. You can go off gap size between clusters, but that's about it. What you do is go around and ask the best players where they feel a cutoff makes sense. You'd be hard-pressed to find too many players that don't see Omastar as UU, so it follows that it and its neighbors ought to be UU. As far as gap size, yes the gap from Electabuzz to Omastar is pretty big, but not really profoundly so. The gap from Hypno to Dugtrio / Kadabra is the same size and the gap from Gyarados to Vaporeon is pretty comparable. There definitely is an argument to be made that the cutoffs we made were "too arbitrary." Dewgong in particular is holding on by a thread and Poliwrath may have been unreasonably cut. I think Omastar and Aerodactyl definitely belong, both by numbers and gut feeling, but I suppose you can debate that. If you take issue with how the lines were drawn, take it up with someone who understands the method better than both of us, like Vapicuno. While I do very much like the current VR and believe it to be the best we've ever had, it isn't perfect. If moving Dewgong to C1 or whatever makes it better, then so be it. I'm not being critical here by the way, genuinely reach out if you're curious or see something you believe is wrong.

Thank you for reading. Look out for edits as always.

Plague von Karma · Aug 31, 2021

Played some games with Big Eni earlier while testing the new sample teams (give those a look!!)

I've seen a lot of people with really crowded A tiers, which I don't entirely like, so I've split mine up in a more deliberate fashion. I think NU is a bit more defined than what people put forward, particularly in that Top 4.

Let's get into those big explanations though, love doing this. I did this at like 5 AM so please bear with.

Also I forgot Raticate pretend it's B+ or B or something

:mr-mime:BIG MIME:mr-mime:
This is definitely Mime Format. There is no Pokemon easier to fit on teams than this little guy, and while I think it's worse than what people say (some even say overpowered), it's definitely the best Pokemon in the tier. It's droppable, but you'll regret it because you're down in Electric coverage and paralysis support, which defines how your matchups against Blastoise and Co. will go. I think others have explained Mr. Mime just fine, so I'll leave it at that now.

:charizard:A+:blastoise:
Charizard, Blastoise, and Nidoking form my A+ tier, all being Pokemon I've heard in contention for S. I personally agree with a lot of the points people have mentioned for each, but at the same time, I see them dropped a lot and they don't feel as "mandatory". Despite me saying that, I find myself using all four on a lot of my best teams.

:charizard: Charizard is a freaking monster. 100 Speed Fire Spin coupled with a fantastic movepool helps it distinguish itself from all the other Fire-types in the tier, and boy does it pay off in spades. Earthquake to quash Golem, Counter for the random Body Slams, Swords Dance for late-game cleaning potential, Slash/BSlam for midground, you name it, Charizard has it. But that fast Fire Spin is what really does it for me, it feels absolutely suffocating to fight Charizard after even a couple of Pokemon are paralyzed. It feels vaguely like UU Tentacruel sometimes, only you really don't have many options to actually outrun it. You could say "ayup missus, ain't Rapidash faster?" and I say to you yes, but it doesn't have the absurd pool of options that defines Charizard. It's so good.

:blastoise: Maybe I'm bad, but I think Blastoise is really hard to break. Hell, I even compared it to Snorlax when fighting Enigami because of how much trouble I'd have. It's not quite on that level considering Blastoise has legitimate weaknesses, significantly less firepower, and only a little room for customisation, but it's still got absurd bulk. If you're not sure what to do, chances are you can chuck Blastoise at it and it'll do something, including paralysis absorption. The only real issue I have with it is that Mr. Mime has Thunderbolt. I really think this may be the best contender for S if there is one.

:nidoking: Nidoking is an offensive behemoth and defines a lot of team styles. It has a button for every situation and it piles on damage fast, all while having the ability to pivot around Thunder Wave. Hell, I find myself using it to finish off Mr. Mime with reckless abandon solely because of its Earthquake killing it from half HP. It's very straightforward, but amazing at what it does.

:clefable:A:golem:
:clefable: Clefable is solid, feels vaguely like OU Chansey and UU Hypno but not quite. My main issue with it is that it feels very easily worn down at times, but the support it brings to the table is fantastic and I find myself always taking a long time to think about the moves to bring on it for a given team. My favourite combination in this tier is Body Slam / Hyper Beam / Blizzard / Thunder Wave right now, with SlamBeam KOing Mr. Mime in sequence. However, you can really get creative here, with stuff like Thunder to 2HKO Blastoise or something. This Pokemon has a LOT of room for optimisation, it just has an equal amount of offensive pressure to have to contend with...

:golem: The fallen OU hero Golem is great in this tier and I feel like the drop is the best thing that ever happened to it. It's been a godsend, stopping Fire-types from taking over and smacking them with nuclear physical blows. It's forced Fire Spam teams to use Toxic for a shot at wearing them down, or Swords Dance + Earthquake Charizard if they're really looking to cleave it in two. However, it stands strong, and is also a very firm stop to any Electrode fuckery.

:kabutops: Another solid defensive piece, Kabutops fits on balance teams as either a Rest user or Swords Dance sweeper. I like using it alongside Pinsir for a concentrated physical attacking core, as I've talked about here before. Generally, Kabutops's resistances and offensive presence make it just feel fantastic.

:moltres: A legendary bird Pokemon with the highest damage output in the tier, somewhat dampened by the bevy of Fire resists in the tier. Why does it work, then? Toxic + Fire Spin teams that want you dead: AgiliSpin is a hell of a drug, folks. Plus, Moltres can actually run defensive Rest sets in this tier, which I absolutely adore and encourage you all to try out. Even something like Agility + Rest can be nice for making Fire-types feel bad.

:venomoth: Fastest consistent sleep lead, with the addition of surprisingly decent damage output due to the lower bulk of the tier. Venomoth enables Agility sweepers like Seadra really well in my experience because of that, but it's also surprisingly helpful against Golem thanks to Mega Drain. Generally a solid Pokemon all around, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

:poliwhirl: I've heard it all from Volk back when Venusaur first left: this Pokemon is an annoying little fucker. As fast as Venomoth with less consistent sleep, but with silly Amnesia strategies that are really hard to stop when it gets going. You can lead off with it and get some cheese off against unprepared players, or use it mid-game as a surprise gag. Very silly, very good.

:kingler:A-:rapidash:
:kingler: The Cringe Crab continues to amaze me in this tier, having just enough bulk to set up properly. Swords Dance + Hyper Beam is a bigger drug than AgiliSpin Moltres and whoa nelly can Kingler close out games quickly if you misplay too much. The lack of significant Electric- and Grass-types is a bigger help to its existence, which also plays into how much easier it is to set up.

:rapidash: If this was Tradebacks, Rapidash would be S-Tier or just not here at all, but I digress. Fastest Fire Spin user available, but with an emphasis on physical attacking and not much Special offense to offer. It's an amazing lead, which is what I primarily use it for; Toxic is neat for those pesky Charizards.

:ninetales: Rapidash but a bit worse, primarily here for the Fire Spam degenerates. The same applies here that you would to Rapidash, only its Special stat is much better than the other Fire-types not named Moltres. You can quite literally get away with 3 Fire-types on some teams, and this is the one you pick.

:arcanine: The defensive Fire-type for when you don't need Fire Spin, makes a good lead too. I've tried Agility variants for late-game but they're just worse Moltres, so don't do that and use Rest instead. It pairs very, very well with Blastoise to form a defensive backbone, so I reocmmend that if you're getting into the tier. Arcanine is also notable for having just enough Speed to beat out Venomoth, so it's a good lead on Fire Spam teams that don't want the crummy Ninetales.

:electrode:B+:exeggcute:
This isn't too ordered, each of these are about equal in my mind.

:electrode: Funny ball Pokemon goes brrr. It's effectively the only Electric-type as you're likely not bringing Pikachu or Magneton to a battle in this tier, so if you want a way to force Blastoise out this is what you're doing. Fastest Thunder Wave in the game means you're able to force some very predictable plays with Electrode, so it's good if you like double switching. Also, it can explode, so paralysis doesn't mean it's out of the game yet...that's about it. Pretty sure it would be A-Tier if Golem and Nidoking stopped breathing one day.

:exeggcute: Great defensive Pokemon bogged down by Fire Blast being thrown around everywhere. You're usually going Double Powder + Psychic + Rest and telling Mr. Mime to get knotted, which is a great niche to have. I think it's a little overrated here considering a lot of stuff in the tier manhandles it, but escaping the Mime mirror match can be game-winning.

:seadra: I love this Pokemon, feels like UU Articuno sometimes. Agility + Rest means you can stop AgiliSpin Pokemon from getting too eager without committing to more Agility uses, but even then you can get away with Rest stalling them out of PP. Generally just a good beatstick late-game, but the defensive utility is just really nice. Use alongside Blastoise and Venomoth for best results.

:pinsir: Another favourite, basically just another Swords Dance + Hyper Beam bot, only it also fits on Fire Spam teams because of its access to Bind, giving you more of a pivoting core. Paraspam teams also greatly appreciate it for its late-game lockdowns that feel like you're being chokeslammed. But my god does it suck if you don't have Submission against Golem or Kabutops, hoo boy.

:fearow:B:dragonair:
:fearow: I dunno, but it feels right here. I switched in on a Golem's Earthquake and Mirror Move'd it on the September 2020 ladder and never felt the same since. It's a nice late-game sweeper, I guess.

:dragonair: AgiliWrap is cool but it can also be a nice Wrap Pivot if you're into those Dragonite sets in UU. The main problem is that its damage output is kind of garbage at times, so you won't get as much out of it as you would initially expect. Also, burns can be really common in this tier, so despite the amazing defensive typing, holy shit are you getting crippled by those Fire Blasts.

:porygon: Shellnuts used Conversion against Mr. Mime one day and my whole perspective on life changed.

:sandslash:B-:wigglytuff:
:sandslash: Alongside Nidoking, I've found Sandslash to be a pretty good pick for a Double Ground offensive team. While you'd often use Golem for this, Sandslash has higher Speed and access to Swords Dance, making it more effective late-game. Golem is often meant to be an early-game wallbreaker, which Nidoking can also do, so I feel the roles are sufficiently different. Thus, with Sandslash, Nidoking is more expendable, which can often let it get away with some really cheeky plays. It's also a great partner for Blastoise, as it can somewhat handle Mr. Mime's assault; Mr. Mime Psychic vs. Sandslash: 138-163 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, Sandslash +0 Earthquake 99.7% 2HKO.

:wigglytuff: Basically a second Clefable, which paves the way for "Double Blob Offence", which is a good offensive core in the current metagame.

:nidoqueen: The above but for Double Nido.

:abra:C:drowzee:
:abra: Some have discredited this little guy, but I think it's neat. You don't have Recover, but you have a gigantic Special stat letting it deal massive damage with Psychic, plus paralysis support. Just cry a bit if the opponent has Exeggcute. It's really just a decent revenge killer to use alongside Mr. Mime.

:drowzee: For some ungodly reason this Pokemon checks Mr. Mime and I'll never recover from that revelation. It also gets Hypnosis + Thunder Wave for some neat role compression.

:primeape: pacattacc showed off a lot with this angry pig monkey, as it has the perfect coverage to succeed in the tier. Low Kick, Submission, Body Slam, Thunderbolt, and Rock Slide all help Primeape a lot. I don't have much to say but you can prolly give this WIP analysis a look for a more educated view.

:slowpoke: It switches in on Poliwhirl, forces paralysis onto the opposing team, and clicks Amnesia before doing funny things. It's basically OU Slowbro but way easier to handle. Still a fairly good choice!

:seaking: Use it alongside Seadra for a decent Agility offense core. Not much else to say about it, as that's basically all it does, just with a better Attack stat to handle Mr. Mime and slightly worse Special. The Special and starting Speed stat are the problems, though, as Seaking's Surf deals really middling damage while it loses to any other Agility user. It KOs Mr. Mime from half HP with Hyper Beam though, which is about all you need.

:flareon:D:scyther:
:flareon: Flareon is really mediocre. Tail Whip + physical attacks are about all it can offer over other Fire-types, which is...garbage, really. However, it has Fire Spin for paralysis-centric Fire Spam teams, which is alright, as this means its main niche - stat reapplication with Tail Whip - kind of fits in naturally. The main question is, why are you using it? What for, Blastoise?

:scyther: Swords Dance + Hyper Beam bot that's kind of a worse Pinsir in my experience. It often ends up falling flat on its face in practice, but it's a nice revenge killer I guess.

:weepinbell: It was a nice option in the Poliwrath meta, but it's fallen out of favour in the eyes of many. Double Powder + Razor Leaf + Wrap is still alright, though. You can maybe make it work.

:gastly: There's a lot on paper, but in practice it's too weak to Psychic and Earthquake to make an impact. I swear there's a way to make it work, but perhaps more building is in order...

Crackhead Theory: Things that may work?
These are some Pokemon that came to mind that I think could maybe work.

Muk has a lot to offer: Explosion, good attacking prowess in Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Mega Drain, Sludge, etc. I think you could use this on paralysis-inclined Fire Spam teams considering the Sludge poison chance. Maybe blow up their Blastoise or something.
Staryu has Recover, ok Speed, and a good movepool, but if I recall correctly some have tried and failed to make it work. Maybe give it a second look, though.
Enigami had a really dumb Fire Spam team and used Ponyta to close out a game against me and I will never recover from this.
Butterfree is immune to Earthquake and has Sleep Powder, maybe that can let it do something? I mean, Nidoking is everywhere...but it also has Rock Slide.
Maybe slap Machamp on paraspam and see if it can do something. It is Mime Format, though.
Something keeps telling me Magmar can do something. It has an amazing movepool, but that's about it. Maybe something with Counter and Psychic.
Tentacool has amazing Special and Wrap, but the Speed stat is a bit iffy.
Pidgeot + Fearow teams?
Paraspam + SD+Wrap Lickitung?
Pikachu feels like it could remotely feasibly not be a meme. How? I dunno, Surf doesn't even OHKO Golem now that I'm calcing it: Pikachu Surf vs. Golem: 262-308 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Maybe if you really need paralysis but don't like Electrode.

Bug Maniac Aydon · Nov 16, 2021

I'm kind of curious about the possibility of Vileplume. It's probably the best statistically compared to the other grass options, but its higher special doesn't really matter that much because Weepinbell has Razor Leaf. Its movepool still sucks, so it's probably not that feasible, unless you care about its bulk that much.

RextheNoname · Nov 21, 2021

my rby nu vr

The following will show my rankings with short reasons as to why I find said mon to be the rank. This is because going in depth for mons like Mime is redundant, though I will have in depth explanations when I find it necessary.

S

:Charizard: (1) Zard has shown to be an absolute menace in the current meta, being on every team. It's not hard to see why. Zard has a massive movepool for any fire type and can destroy entire teams with just an SD. 100 speed makes it an extremely fast spinner, so it gets to pivot into a teammate if it can't handle whatever is on the field. It's pretty clear if you've played against it that it's crazy good.

:Mr. Mime: (2) Mime's high Special combined with access to Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave make it undoubtedly the best in the tier. You can put mime on just about any team you'd like. I think the fact that Mimes will commonly trade thunder wave speaks to how good they truly are.

:Clefable: (3) Clef has very few switch ins, BlizzBolt hits nearly everything. Anything that can neutrally take hits despises being paralyzed. I will say that Clefable is susceptible to chip damage, as even Mime's Psychic can deal a decent chunk to it. It's not really as much of a Mime check, as it is a check to nearly everything in the meta.

A +

:Blastoise: (4) Water typing combined with solid defenses means Blastoise gets to come in on plenty of opponents. Rest allows for sub-optimal recovery, but can be pulled off if needed. Much like mime, Blastoise commonly finds itself duking it out with opposing blastoise, waiting for one to get frozen, or to be forced to rest.

:Nidoking: (5) A great switch in to the dozens of T-waves getting thrown around. Great coverage & speed makes king even more of a menace. Poison typing does hold it back some but that doesn't stop it from steamrolling anything that has been paralyzed.

A

:Kabutops: (6) Kabutops barely missed the spot for #5, holding nearly identical versatility, and a great resistance to many fire spinners. On top of that, swords dance will completely destroy someone who misjudges your Kabutops as a Rest set. With the amount of Fire Spin being spammed, it's easy to see why this guy is used.

:Moltres: (7) On paper Moltres seems absolutely broken. Holding crazy bulk, a solid speed tier and the highest special in the RBY NU. Yet in practice, Moltres' speed is only decent, and base 90 speed stat is solid but not amazing. This means Moltres can't super reliably fire spin, as many other mons like Mime and in some cases poliwhirl can abuse the speed tie. Yet don't get it twisted Moltres is still brutal with its fire blasts, and they tear a chunk out of everything in the tier.

A-

:Kingler: (8) Kingler is just all around great. Kingler's attack stat makes nearly every mon crap their pants, and on top of that it gets crabhammer to slap Golem and Kabutops. Yet Kingler's speed isn't the best, so it's commonly threatened out by Mime coming in to revenge kill it. Yet even then, nothing ever wants to switch into the King Crab.

:Golem: (9) It's hard to talk about Golem without just saying that it's pretty freakin' reliable. Sure, it does a surface level job at countering Fire Spinners, and will completely break down upon being burnt, but that's not to discredit how solid this thing is. The only big thing that stopped me from ranking it any higher is how easily pressured it is to boom, as it can take a notable amount of damage with how often it comes in to sponge thunder waves and normal type attacks.

:Electrode: (10) Speaking of being pressured to expolde. Trode might as well be the only electric type in the tier, and it's a solid one at that. Sure, Trode can't do anything to Golem or Nidoking, and is pretty much a garunteed explosion upon being paralyzed. Yet on the flipside Trode threatens everything with a crippling paralysis. Trode is also a solid bait for its aforementioned Counters, as many grounds can't do much to the waters of the tier.

:Venomoth: (11) Amazing lead. Base 90 speed with Dual Powder & Psychic. Yet moth has a considerably crappy matchup against the fires of the tiers, as many outspeed and threaten it with fire Spin. Though this is not to say it's bad in any way, moth excelles in the lead slot and will put any opponent out of commission instantly if sleep clause has yet to be active.

:Rapidash: (12) Rapidash is heavily reliant on Fire Spin, but it's high speed stat combined with a strong hyper beam makes it not too shabby at the job. Rapidash's ability to outspeed every other spinner makes it great as a Fire Spin pivot.

:Poliwhirl: (13) Reminds me of Rathchu meta, but that's besides the point. Poliwhirl is so threatening to a lot of teams and at the same time is so unreliable. Yet I do belive the risk is worth the reward, and on top of that you can get a free sleep sac if you lose the speed tie against Venomoth.

B+

:Seadra: (14) Meet the lowest ranked (Viable) Water in the tier. Despite being the lowest ranked, it's still amazing. Hydro Pump coming off of this thing hits like a truck, and at times feels like the equivalent of switching in on a Moltres Fire Blast. Rest and Agility are both great options as both allow Seadra to become more and more threatening. Ahility by allowing it to outspeed everything and threaten opponents, and Rest meaning Seadra will stick around for a while. It might be the lowest ranked Water, but it sure as hell isn't a bad one.

:Arcanine: (15) No Fire Spin? Not a problem when you’re Arcanine. Arcanine is not only bulky, but dishes out plenty of damage with Body Slam and Hyper Beam. It’s also capable of pulling of Rest with its solid bulk. It’s kind of like a Moltres lite, but you do get a nice speed stat that Moltres lacks.

:Exeggcute: (16) Hard walls Mime, and has access to sleep powder. On top of that, you get explosion. You already know what this thing does if you’ve played OU. Yet Exeggcute still doesn’t have super high HP stats, so Rest is easily abusable. Outside of that it doesn’t necessarily do a lot. Exeggcute takes a ton from every fire type in the tier, so it can easily be forced out. Although Egg doesn’t instantly die to Fire Spin, so it can threaten spin pivots easily. Not a horrible pick for a team if you ask me, and is able to reliably pull off Sleep Powder a majority of the time.

:Pinsir: (17) - Pinsir is just another one of those mons that is simply reliable. Base 85 speed and a gigantic base 125 attack is fabulous. What it cannot hit with Slash, it brings in an opponent with bind. However Pinsir is still hard walled by Golem, and base 85 speed isn’t good when every fire spinner in the tier is faster than you. Though a weakness to Fire Spin is never an instant nail in the coffin, and Pinsir still excells when on the field with its Slashes.

B

:Ninetales: (18) - This is likely the spiciest my picks get. Ninetales is just as reliant on Fire Spin as Rapidash, and yet dishes out similar damage and has less speed, meaning it speed ties base 100s. Yes, it does have far better special bulk, but both can take a decent amount of damage from special and physcial hits. Both actually are very fearing of Paralysis, which is commonly able to be dished out by special attackers. Now outside of that, Ninetales is still a solid addition, and its Fire Blast is able to dish out monstrous damage in addition to Fire-Spin

:Fearow: (19) Fearow is the strongest Normal in the tier, with base 100 speed and 90 attack. It's also got effectively the only Flying STAB in RBY NU, Hitting Exegggcute and Pinsir pretty hard, but Fearow is Primarily known for being the hardest hitting Normal in the tier, not defined as "that one mon that has drill peck"

B-

:Raticate: (20) Raticate is able to disinguish itself from the other normals with its access to Super fang and solid coverage. The main issue is, super fang will never OHKO, so Raticate cannot deal with opponents which have thunder wave. So raticate is in this situation where it struggles to get damage off out of fear of paralysis, but Raticate can do pretty well with opponent that lacks Thunder Wave or Stun Spore, and can break walls pretty effectively.

:Sandslash: (21) Sandslash's access to Swords Dance makes it a decent sweeper in RBY NU. There are Thunder Waves getting passed around all the time in this tier, so Sandslash gets plenty of opportunity to switch in. Now Sandslash does struggle to take a lot of damage, and it faces heavy competition from Nidoking and Golem, but neither have access to the heavily threatening Swords Dance.

:Drowzee: ( 22) Drowzee seems to be a worse Exeggcute, lacking the more reliable Sleep Powder, and not resisting Mime's Thunderbolt. Though Drowzee is effectively an Egg with a lack of Fire Weakness, meaning it can easily stay in and threaten a paralysis to a Fire Spinner. Also Drowzee can hit pretty hard with its Psychics, so not a a lot wants to switch into it.

:Wigglytuff: (23) Wigglytuff separates itself from other doppelgangers by copying a mon that is so versatile that having two of them is worth going out of your way to build around dual blob. Seriously, try Dual blob, it's awesome. Now unfortunately Wigglytuff can't get above B-. because if you're using Tuff, you're also using Clef.

:Porygon: (24) All that Porygon has to its name is recover, its other stats are less than stellar, Conversion Porygon is able to 1v1 some of the tier with Thunder Wave and then spamming Recover. Porygon has BlizzBolt Coverage to make it usable. Porygon truly is a one trick Pony.

C+

:Gastly: (25) Gastly is suprisingly good on paper. It has solid Special and good coverage. to hit a ton of things super-effectively. Though Gastly is considerably worse in practice. For one it's comically frail, and makes Mime's defenses look a lot better when compared Side by side. This isn't great when you consider how Gastly tries to come in on Exploders like Golem and Trode who can easily nueter it with Paralysis or Earthquake. Gastly also has middling speed, at base 80. meaning it gets outsped my many common threats like Nidoking and Mime. Although Gastly does deal with Kingler and Pinsir quite well, being able to take them out with thunderbolt. Hypnosis is quite unreliable, and barley saves Gastly from being any lower. Gastly has some use, but it's frail, has mediocre speed, and can't be put on a lot of teams.

:Primeape: (26) Ape is kind of meh. Hitting base 95 speed makes it slightly above average. On top of that you get thunderbolt to smack the waters of the tier, but outside of that you don't really gain a whole lot from it. Fighting typing isn't good by NU standards, and there are many better revenge killers, though few have the coverage options that Primeape has, meaning it's considerable on many teams

:Abra: (27) Abra is effectively just a Mime lead without the risk of your own Mime. It seems like a great addition to most teams until you realize both Mime and Abra are very frail and struggle to consistently switch in. Giving up much needed bulk for a crappier Mime is less than optimal for many teams.

C
:Dragonair: (28) Dragonair holds a good defensive typing vs a lot of the tier. In addition Nair gets Thunder Wave, solid coverage, and agility Wrap to spam on a lot of the tier. I wouldn't blame you for using Nair just for the not abysmal accuracy on its pivoting moves.

:Nidoqueen: (29) Nidoqueen suffers from the same fate as abra, being pretty bad at switching into opponents meaning it struggles to get in. On top of that Queen doesn't reach Nidoking's base 85 speed, making it quite slow. So it'll be taking even more hits than King does, with slightly better bulk.

:Slowpoke: (30) Meet RBY NU's other amnesia user! Slowpoke has mediocre physical bulk, and access to thunder wave meaning sometimes, however rare, you will be able to dish out some decent damage with Amnesia boosted Psychics. It's usable, but not something you'd instantly go to for a team.

C-

:Parasect: (31) Okay so just talking about spore doesn't give this thing credit. Slash is pretty alright and Swords Dance sets can do decent damage. Though Spore is really the only reason to use this thing.

:Machamp: (32) Are you tired of having to play around Clefable and Nidoking? Machamp can sort of reliably switch into these two, but you run the risk of Psychic Clefable, and on top of that Machamp is pretty easy to Chip. Champ really isn't that great, with its common weakness to Mime and other Psychic users.

D

:Poliwag: (33) If it wasn't obvious already, I dislike duplicates which are frail or unreliable. Yeah, wag means you're running two unreliable sweepers on one team. Oh, and your opponent better not be running electrode.

:Vileplume: (34) For those who haven't attended my lecture on why Vileplume is worthy of D-tier ranking, I'll quickly catch you up. Plume has good special bulk, sleep powder, and access to swords dance. This makes it semi-reliable at late game sweeping. People who run Mega Drain on Plume are simply doing it wrong. Sleep Powder/Swords Dance/Body Slam/ Hyper Beam is the way to go. I mean it's still not good but it definitely gets you style points.

:Magneton: (35) It's strong, It's Static, and it's less than optimal. Having a Special stat 5 points below moltres is amazing. Though not being able to do crap with it sucks. It's a worse Electrode that threatens nothing.

:Weepinbell: (36) Wrap is usable, and Razor Lead can nail the 2 amnesia users we have. It's usable, but Sub-Optimal.

:Pikachu: (37) Raichu's younger brother was the last hope for the Chu regime. Pikachu held the ability to conquer RBY NU with Tsunamis able to take out everything that could take a thunderbolt. When Pikachu gets on the field, instead of the promised massive waves destroying nearly everything. Pikachu drops its pants and pisses all over a Rock type switch in. Seriously, Surf doesn't even OHKO Golem, Sure it's nice to actually be able to hit Rocks but in the end, you're using Pikachu for crying out loud.

:Onix: (38) Last, and very much least you have Onix, a far worse golem with terrible stats. You only really get Wrap to compliment this dirty strip of, well, I'm not going to say it.

if there's an explanation you feel i did a lackluster job on please tell me and I'll try to fix it.

Enigami · Nov 22, 2021

With RBY PL nearing its end, it's probably about time I posted a VR here.

Not going to reiterate much of what's already said about what the mons do, so I'll focus on what stands out. Charizard at #1 is mostly due to its late game Swords Dance set. Charizard is already very solid with its coverage and pivoting/potential cheesing with Fire Spin, and SD can just run away with games if you give it an inch. Very very good offensive Pokemon, possibly at a OU Tauros or UU Tentacruel level. It's just so good at forcing progress.

Moltres I seem to regularly have slightly higher in placement than others. I really value its monstrous mixed offensive and defensive value it provides, and crits from this beast are no joke. Seriously, it can soft check Mr. Mime despite being weak to Thunderbolt, or even stay in on a Water to hit it with Toxic or miss a Fire Spin without getting too badly maimed to do anything else.

Wiggly I rate highly because ClefTuff is good. Try it! It's quite good with Pokemon that like having lots of paralysis spread around, like Kingler, Kabutops or Golem.

The mono-Fires suffer a bit from the Fire/Flyings being Charizard with its amazing coverage or Moltres with its amazing stats overshadowing them. Ninetales and Arcanine I think are a bit better than Rapidash, since their greater bulk makes them more useful defensively. Rapidash reliably outspeeding Charizard is Rapidash's best point, but Charizard wins that matchup anyway unless Charizard was already significantly weakened or Charizard has been poisoned and Fire Spin connects. Ultimately Rapidash just seems less reliable compared to the other Fires, which reflects its placement beneath the others.

Raticate and Fearow I haven't used or seen in a while, Dragonair, Drowzee and Gastly all have potential to be contenders in NU but I have seem too little of them and have used them very little myself. For that reason, I've placed them in a special borderline tier between B- and C until I can better evaluate them.

Muk is a Pokemon I've actually used and find it alright. One of its finer qualities is baiting Golem if the opponent has it while still being able to take out large chunks of Golem's HP with Mega Drain, allowing Muk to soften up Golem for other Pokemon like Fearow or Scyther that would otherwise have a hard time breaking through it. And as always, if nothing else it can simply explode to trade with most anything in the tier that isn't a Rock or Gastly. Magneton and Scyther can present a very large threat in the late game if the opponent's Ground types (for Magneton) or Rock types (for Scyther) are eliminated or not present, enough that I can see them deserving a spot in C.

In D rank I went a bit wild with including anything with the slightest niche I could think of. *deep breath* Poliwag brings a lot of annoyance as a secondary sleep inducer+Amnesia sweeper alongside Polowhirl. Magmar might be able to leverage its good coverage to help Fire Spam break through resists. Seaking can work alongside Seadra in a double Agility Water Spam core. Weezing is so bulky that it is only 4HKO'd by Kabutops without Swords Dance, but the lack of Mega Drain really weakens its Golem matchup compared to Muk. Machamp was okayish before Golem dropped, but if you want a brutally powerful physical attacker you want to baby, Golem is usually your mon. However, Machamp not being Ice/Water/Grass weak might be just what your team wants, so maybe it can find a spot on teams to bully Clefable (maybe run it with Counter?). Ponyta adds more redundancy to all in Toxic Spin spam, giving you one more opportunity to cheese through a poisoned/burn team to win. Staryu is really squishy, but it has Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt coverage for Water-types, and its typing and Recover lets it check Fire-types and Water-types without setup moves decently enough. Weepinbell is an alternative sleeper in a tier with limited sleeper options that can abuse paralyzed Pokemon with Wrap and shred Polis with Razor Leaf. Pidgeot might be able to work on Normal spam, especially when the opponent is lacking a Golem or Kabutops. Ivysaur is like Weepinbell except it Speed-ties Clefable in return for no Wrap or Stun Spore. Dratini could be used alongside Dragonair in a cheesy double AgiliWrap core. Pikachu is like a Mr. Mime that accidentally put BubbleBeam over Psychic. Look it up, Pikachu's Surf does as much as BubbleBeam would do if Mr. Mime had it and Pikachu's STAB Thunderbolt does almost exactly the same damage as Mr. Mime's non-STAB Thunderbolt. Might work as a wonky Abra that can hit Golems harder than Abra or Mime can? Hitmonlee might match up well against ClefTuff teams, but the tier has a lot of Fighting resists so it might not work out. Arbok is a Wrap abuser that is stuck at a middling 80 Speed in a tier loaded with Pokemon like Mr. Mime, Charizard and Nidoking that are all faster and hammer Arbok with super effective attacks, but Wrap alongside Glare to spread its own paralysis maybe could work on some king of paralysis heavy team. Vileplume is an alternative sleeper that can try to use its bulk and sleep to pull off a Swords Dance sweep. Butterfree has a Ground immunity that can technically be used to pivot around Earthquake while also providing sleep and paralysis support. Parasect works similar to Butterfree, except it's even slower, but it has perfectly accurate sleep, Slash and Swords Dance to maybe threaten things. Onix is probably too slow and weak to work, but it does have more speed than Golem and Bind, so maybe it could be usable.

Bug Maniac Aydon · Nov 22, 2021

I'm not super good at this or have a lot of experience with this format (goddamn it's hard to find players) but i'd play a lot with Beelz and maybe Maya a while back.

Anyway onto my point, Blastoise I think should probably be S tier with mime. It's really the only thing in NU that qualifies as bulky the way that I see it, and Fire is common as fuck. STABs of its two weaknesses honestly kinda seem to suck, and I don't know how much non STABs from Mime and whoever else do, but this thing lasts entire games from my experience.

BT89 · Nov 23, 2021

RBYPL is nearing its end, and with that comes my tier list. I’ll keep the obvious stuff brief and I will try to keep my opinions on the heater stuff longer.

:mr. mime:S :charizard:

Mr. Mime - This mon needs no introduction, as it’s always been a staple of the tier. It’s Psychic is one of the most definitive moves of the tier and has been quoted as “determining the viability” of many Pokemon in the tier. Very good mon!

Charizard - After an impressive showing in RBYPL, Charizard is definitely an S tier mon. Swords Dance is an amazing cleaner, and has a lot of use in other parts of the game due to its ability to pivot and be cheesy with Fire Spin. Swords Dance just makes this thing even more scary, as it can just grab games automatically. Definitely one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and a force to be reckoned with!

:blastoise:A+ :clefable:

Blastoise - Simply put, the mon is good. An extremely potent defensive pick that can check pretty much all of the Fire-types and other mons like Seadra and Golem? Count me in. It’s a defensive Pokemon with good offensive prowess with Water- and Ice- type attacks. However, it’s only A+ because the Thunderbolt weakness and mediocre Speed tier kinda blow.

Clefable - This mon is splashable as hell right now. It’s also quite unpredictable, as I have found myself being baited by Sing sets numerous times. It also has a lot of utility as a check to quite a bit, mainly Mr. Mime, as well as access to moves like Thunder Wave, BoltBeam coverage, and the aforementioned Sing. Too bad whenever one uses it, it gets flinched, para’d, slept, crit, burnt, and poisoned all at once.

Kabutops - This thing is TERRIFYING, quite versatile like Clefable but also simply ignores Fire-type moves while the ability to mix up between Rest and Swords Dance just makes it extremely hard to handle.

Nidoking - Still a monster late game with an absolutely broken movepool making it nigh impossible to switch into. It also has good switch in opportunities because of its Thunder Wave and Toxic immunity, letting it wreak havoc even faster. However, relying on super effective hits to really leave a dent into an opponent can be somewhat annoying.

Golem - Only bottom of A+ because it absolutely despises burn from the Fire-types it is supposed to check and is forced to explode a lot. However, it’s still pretty reliable and strong. EdgeQuake is really nice and Boom is always a nuke.

:moltres:A- :venomoth:

Moltres - This thing has absolutely insane stats and has the strongest special attack in the tier with its Fire Blast. It’s so specially fat that it can somewhat check things that it shouldn’t like Mr. Mime, and can adequately threaten Water-types with Toxic. Insane mon!

Venomoth - I like this mon. Good lead with good Speed and a good move in Psychic but it kinda hates Fire-types, but usually it can live a hit from them and punish with status, whether it be sleep or paralysis.

Poliwhirl - Very high-risk high-reward-ish kinda mon. Sometimes it just wins the game, and other times it’s unreliable. Still good!

Kingler - Highest Attack stat in the tier + way to threaten Rock-types = great. This thing really likes paralysis support because once it has it, the game might have ended. However, it really hates stuff like Mr. Mime revenge killing it.

:seadra:B+ :exeggcute:

Seadra - Hydro Pump is really annoying to switch into, but Seadra is pretty annoying in general. Agility sets are great, and Rest is good too.

Exeggcute - A really good Mime check, and sleep is good too. I just think it simply isn’t as good against much of the tier besides Mime, but Sleep Powder is broken and Explosion is great as always.

Arcanine - The other bulky Fire-type of the tier, Arcanine is good. Rest sets are nice because you are both bulky and you are pretty strong with Body Slam and Hyper Beam. These attributes really make up for the lack of Fire Spin and allow it to succeed right now.

Rapidash - Fast Fire Spinner with a strong finisher in Hyper Beam is always a positive. It would be higher but it’s utter reliance on Fire Spin is really annoying sometimes and I find it harder to justify these days. It’s still real solid though, and when it works, it works quite well.

Pinsir - Amazing 125 attack + solid 85 Speed + Bind makes for a Pokémon that will usually get its role done. It really hates the Fire-types of the tier and the Speed doesn’t help. Still a really solid pick though!

Porygon - I’ve grown to this thing recently, Conversion is a really cool tech and BlizzBolt, Recover, and TWave are all really good attributes. The stats let it down though.

:ninetales:B- :electrode:

Ninetales - My least favorite viable Fire-type right now. It might just be my bias, but I’ve never really thought extremely highly of Ninetales. Sure, higher special bulk is really useful and allows it to act as a sort of Mime check but it despises paralysis, and it’s Speed is somewhat annoying considering it isn’t outspeeding base 100s. I will have to experiment with this more, as I have heard many people say it is good, but for now, I’m not a fan.

Electrode - The only Electric-type in the tier is simply alright. Being infinitely walled by Golem and Nidoking is really irritating, and is more or less guaranteed to be gone once it is paralyzed, but it can actually use this weakness to Grounds as an advantage for a Water-type in the back.

Raticate - Technically has no switch ins, as it does 50% to everything, and has good coverage. It really despises paralysis though, since it’s Speed is one of its key factors. It’s also frail too. However, it’s still good at breaking bulky mons.

Fearow - The strongest Normal type in the tier with great Attack and Speed makes it a threat and a half. Drill Peck eating up things like Pinsir and Exeggcute is neat too. It would go higher but no one uses it unfortunately.

Wigglytuff - ClefTuff is very good! Spam paralysis to your hearts desire. I think Counter sets are very funny, and Sing sets are evil baits.

Dragonair - A unique typing that has a good amount of defensive utility is nice. It has a good utility movepool, with stuff like Thunder Wave and the infamous AgiliWrap. However, a weakness to Ice-type moves sucks and its moves have bad accuracy.

:sandslash: C+ :gastly:

Gastly - Normal-type immunity guarantees some kind of niche. Stopping Hyper Beams n Booms from stuff like Kingler, Pinsir, and Exeggcute is always neat. The issue is it doesn’t really do much outside of checking Normal-type moves. It’s defenses are absolutely horrendous, and it’s Speed is middling. It’s really hard to simply put Gastly on a team, and overall, Gastly is an extremely “on paper” pick that sort of just doesn’t really do all that much in practice.

Drowzee - I am really iffy on this one, but Drowzee does have a niche as an alright Mime check. Like Exeggcute except better against other stuff because of its lack of a Fire weakness and it’s ability to deal good damage without needing to sacrifice its life.

Sandslash - My opinions on Sandslash have skyrocketed recently, and I honestly think it is worth considering for actual NU status. Swords Dance sets have proven to be great sweepers and has multiple opportunities to come in because of its typing. It faces competition from other Grounds, but none of them boast Swords Dance. Basically what RexTheNoName said before me.

:abra:C :slowpoke:

Abra - Good Speed that lets it actually accomplish things and has the strongest Psychic in the tier allow it to shine. Good on PsySpam, and a great paralysis spammer because of how scary it is to come in on + the great Speed. However, it’s bulk is absolutely appalling, being 2HKOed by pretty much every physical move in the tier. It also has a singular coverage move, which can suck.

Slowpoke - I loved Slowpoke in the summer, and I still pretty much feel the same. The second best Amnesia abuser and a generally solid paralysis absorber, user, and abuser! It’s physical bulk is a bit underwhelming and it hates Electrode and Mr. Mime with all of its heart, but overall, he’s good.

Nidoqueen - Nidoqueen is not really worth it over Nidoking ever, and thus, it is relegated to double Nido teams. However, these teams aren’t that good because of Poison / Ground being a horrendous defensive typing for this metagame. The better bulk isn’t really doing that much when you are taking more hits.

Primeape - It’s alright. Outspeeding Mr. Mime is amazing, and being able to hit Water-types with Thunderbolt is really good. However, like Abra, it’s comically frail and there are Pokémon that do it’s role better. It definitely still has a role however.

:poliwag:D :seaking:

At this point, these are the very niche mons. I’ll keep these ones pretty brief.

Poliwag - Annoying sleeper + Amnesia user on double Poli teams.

Seaking - Agility abuser with stronger physical attacks than Seadra.

Butterfree - Alternative lead with a precious Ground immunity ruined by lower Speed and net negative typing.

Muk - Bait in Golem and Kabutops and click Mega Drain

Machamp - Absolutely terrifying with paralysis support, not weak to Ice/Grass/Water.

Parasect - Spore is busted. Swords Dance + Slash is also good.

Weepinbell - Grass-type partial trapper with double powder.

Magneton - 120 Special and Electric STAB is always good. Hard walled by Grounds though, much like Electrode.

Scyther - Swords Dance + Agility sweeper with already good Speed & Attack.

Weezing - Wall/bait what Muk does even harder but without Mega Drain.

Pikachu - Mr. Mime with Surf over Psychic and substantially weaker.

Ponyta - Niche on Fire Spam teams, still quite fast.

Onix - Outclassed by Golem, but Bind may have some sort of niche?

:vileplume: Potential UR Candidates :arbok:

Vileplume - Swords Dance sets look pretty cool, even though I barely have tried them. Seems like a cool alternative sleeper and sleep abuser. 50 Speed sucks though.

Ivysaur - Better Speed tier than Weepinbell, but loses Stun Spore and Wrap. More doubtful on this one considering Weepinbell is already pretty niche.

Arbok - Horrid typing with middling stats all around, but Glare paralyses Grounds, unlike Thunder Wave. Maybe could be a paralysis spreader on Wrap teams?

Magmar - Great coverage for Fire Spam to break through walls.

Staryu - Actually has a lot with BoltBeam, Recover, TWave, and a good typing. It’s really squishy though.

Hitmonlee - Possible ClefTuff killer, but matches up bad against pretty much everything else.

A lot of these explanations were somewhat rushed (D tiers) so if you want a more thorough explanation, contact me through Smogon or Discord.

Serpi · Nov 29, 2021

The Twaves from Mime and Clef are the absolute key to creating favorable trades in this tier, and there's not much you can do to prevent them doing big damage to your team this way because of their respective Psychic and Normal typing and decent stats. Meanwhile Charizard is easily the best mon with >90 Speed and has the tools to be very threatening. A lot of high lvl games revolve around these guys and how players use them, and the other mons' viability is largely based on how well they fare in the environment created by these 3.

Poliwhirl is a great example of a mon who does well in this environment. As a lead it is a great annoyance to pretty much any lead that isn't Veno or Mime, however Whirl gets even more dangerous when it's kept in the back: a lot of midgame situations are turned on their head by Whirl hitting the field on a positive matchup (so anything slower, Moltres or a Whirl that has already gotten sleep) and getting sleep.

Nidoking and Kabutops are 2 great breakers with useful typings. Nidoking sports a useful Twave immunity while dominating some lowtier Mons such as Electrode, Gastly and Primeape while Kabutops has easy entry points in Hyper Beam and Fire Blast. Both are prone to getting revenge killed by base 90's and in Kabutops' case, it's also getting revenge killed by its breaker buddy Nidoking.

Golem is kind of a fusion of the two but it hates Surf and Clefable's Blizzard more which makes it harder to use, especially when coupled with its low speed stat. However, it has an important role in prep because it's a hard punish for players who drop Blizzard on Clefable.

Blastoise is a big fat body to trade with, however it lacks the offensive qualities of the other water types that make them so hard to deal with. In my opinion it's very rare to encounter a situation where Blastoise can use Rest effectively in this environment, which leaves it with not much to differentiate itself from Kingler and Seadra. However while it's less dangerous, Blastoise still trades more consistently than them and it can use Counter to great effect, which is why I still rated it at the top of B.

Exeggcute is a pretty unique mon: it uses Mime as an entry point to get sleep, paralysis and whatever else it can get. This is impressive because most teams hate giving Mime a free early hit, while Eggy thrives on it. At the same time, it also punishes people dropping ice moves on Poliwhirl and Blastoise and is a Golem check. However, the accuracy of Sleep Powder and Stun Spore make this gameplan less consistent (if they don't hit on the first try, things get weird because you've revealed your egg) and there are lots of mons who Eggy trades badly versus, which means it might not get an opening early into the game if the opponent doesn't end up using their Mime.

Ninetales is the best mono-fire because her Special stat makes a big difference when fighting Mime and Clef. You might think that Rapidash evading the Zard speedtie is good, but it barely makes a difference: in the lead slot, a mono-fire needs to tox Zard and get outta there, which is why Ninetales' ability to evade the EQ 2HKO/Crit OHKO ends up being more useful. Ninetales with her qualities just lends herself more to the fire spam archetype: You lead Ninetales, get some toxics, hit some spins and then she dies or gets slept which hopefully leaves a damaged team that is now more susceptible to your Zard and Moltres. At the end of the day however, it's difficult to justify a mono-fire over an offensive water type even on this type of team.

I don't believe that NU, at its core, leaves much more room for truly viable mons than for example OU, which is why you don't see as many mons on my VR. There's definitely a lot to discover though: guys like Eggy, Wigglytuff, Electrode, Pinsir, Porygon and Abra are super interesting mons to play and build with and I see a lot of potential for meta shifts and developments in this whole roster of mons.
I really hope that NU takes a path comparable to OU where we don't need to ban anything for a long time and players repeatedly come up with new ways to play the game in order to win.

Plague von Karma · Nov 30, 2021

So RBYPL II's stats are all sorted now, and everyone seemed most hyped for NU's.

Here's a mirror of its cumulative stat entry, partly so I can be lazy and not flip between tabs...
:mr-mime:RBY NU:blastoise:
| Moves & Teammates | Combos | Leads |

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mr. Mime           |   78 |  90.70% |  52.56% |
| 2    | Blastoise          |   62 |  72.09% |  46.77% |
| 3    | Charizard          |   56 |  65.12% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Clefable           |   51 |  59.30% |  52.94% |
| 5    | Nidoking           |   44 |  51.16% |  56.82% |
| 6    | Kabutops           |   25 |  29.07% |  44.00% |
| 6    | Poliwhirl          |   25 |  29.07% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Venomoth           |   24 |  27.91% |  62.50% |
| 9    | Golem              |   22 |  25.58% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Moltres            |   18 |  20.93% |  55.56% |
| 11   | Kingler            |   17 |  19.77% |  52.94% |
| 12   | Rapidash           |   13 |  15.12% |  15.38% | holy shit lmfao
| 13   | Exeggcute          |   11 |  12.79% |  36.36% |
| 14   | Porygon            |    8 |   9.30% |  75.00% |
| 14   | Pinsir             |    8 |   9.30% |  37.50% |
| 16   | Ninetales          |    7 |   8.14% |  57.14% |
| 16   | Electrode          |    7 |   8.14% |  14.29% |
| 18   | Wigglytuff         |    5 |   5.81% |  80.00% |
| 19   | Fearow             |    4 |   4.65% |  25.00% |
| 20   | Seadra             |    3 |   3.49% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Gastly             |    3 |   3.49% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Dragonair          |    3 |   3.49% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Magneton           |    2 |   2.33% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Primeape           |    2 |   2.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Arcanine           |    1 |   1.16% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Poliwag            |    1 |   1.16% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Raticate           |    1 |   1.16% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Scyther            |    1 |   1.16% |   0.00% |

Missing 1 Pokemon from ENIGAMI.
Missing 1 Pokemon from ENIGAMI.
Missing 1 Pokemon from LPZ IV.
Missing 2 Pokemon from LATIOS.
Missing 2 Pokemon from LATIOS.
Missing 1 Pokemon from ENIGAMI.
Missing 1 Pokemon from ENIGAMI.
Missing 1 Pokemon from KHAETIS.
Missing 1 Pokemon from SERPI N_N.
Missing 1 Pokemon from SERPI N_N.
Missing 1 Pokemon from SERPI N_N.
Missing 1 Pokemon from OATHKEEPER.

So here are some of my observations so we can get some discussion going...

Good god, Rapidash's win rate is some shit. 15.38% ain't a good look for our little pony here, that's for sure. It seems the sets are a little weird, with one person bringing AgiliSpin. Personally, I do have a high-ish opinion on this Pokemon, mainly because it outspeeds Charizard and tends to bring down Mr. Mime better than most, but it seems like it's struggling here. Are we using it wrong, or is it actually just bad?

These two had terrible lead win rates; 11% and 27% respectively, and I think we may know why. Fire Spin and Hypnosis are pretty inconsistent, and these Pokemon get punished extremely hard for missing, both despising status. Perhaps these Pokemon work better in the back as momentum-grabbers rather than what's going on here, as losing out in lead situations in this tier can be really, really bad.

Arcanine got a single use despite Shellnuts's massive advocacy for it, which definitely surprised me as an appreciator myself. It's got solid strengths as an anti-lead and synergises with numerous Water-types as a defensive presence, so I'm curious to see what people think. Is the lack of Fire Spin truly that dire for the Legendary Pokemon, or did the players here underrate its qualities? Personally, I think its role is distinct to the point Fire Spin isn't necessary, and that team styles involving it are simply being underused at the moment.

Charizard and Venomoth seem to have solidified themselves as the leads to beat, both boasting high usage and above-average win rates. Considering the value of consistent leads in this tier, this seems to fall in line with that narrative. Charizard has boundless set variety - the stats also show this - which gives it the versatility to adapt to pretty much anything you throw at it; the high Speed also leaves Rapidash and Electrode as the only Pokemon to contest it. Venomoth, on the other hand, is sort of a Jynx-type deal: fastest consistent sleep. Perhaps this is why it was used over Poliwhirl: more consistent sleep, while having less value and thus being a valid status sack.

I've noticed quite a bit of Blizzard Blastoise usage, which is interesting, since it doesn't actually help with many calcs; Ice Beam still nets the 2HKO on Exeggcute and such, Blizzard is usually for Dragonair and...Weepinbell...yeah. Glad to see some Earthquake appreciators in there, as well as the high Tox/SToss usage, it's all very nice. I feel like we can optimise Blastoise's sets a bit more, so discussion on that could be cool!

Counter Charizard saw use in the lead slot, which is definitely something I was hoping to see. With how opposing Charizard leads often end up using Slash to muscle past each other, Counter definitely stings. From what I recall from my sightings of it, it definitely did some good work. I find it really funny seeing this happen, as I recall pac saying that one of those obscure super-low tiers had Charmeleons duking it out in exactly the same way.

Kabutops is sick and I feel it was underused here. Its set variety is about as good as Charizard's, featuring numerous potent offensive options and even defensive sets, and it's eating good here. Hyper Beam sets seem to be winning the most here, so perhaps building teams with that is the play right now!

There's a ton of other points to look at here, but these appear to be the most noticeable.

phoopes · Dec 1, 2021

I said this to May already, but the most used combo of 6 was Nidoking/Clef/Zard/Blast/Mime/Moth and it had a 100% win rate. We've solved NU, ggs

Lower Tiers RBY NU Hub

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