OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[Amaranth]

And again, he says here, "...because nobody would see it coming..." Moves that work mostly for this reason, I categorize as gimmicky.

It's not about "seeing it coming", every top player knows that normal move Egg exists. It's a matter of opportunity cost playing around it. You say it's effortless to scout it, but is it really? Say that you have a paralyzed Jynx and everything else healthy, your Chansey is clicking Soft-Boiled, Exeggutor comes in. Are you willing to stay and risk Sleep Powder, when you have a safe option instead? Obviously Jynx is the safe move, then ok some of the time you will soulread your opponent and do something else covering Double Edge or double switches, but not often at all (or you will lose to all the times I'm *not* bringing Double-Edge.)

In just this RBYPL:

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 4    | [Exeggutor]             |  715 |  74.48% |  49.23% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Psychic                 |  527 |  73.71% |  49.43% |
| 2    | Sleep Powder            |  397 |  55.52% |  51.64% |
| 3    | Explosion               |  231 |  32.31% |  55.19% |
| 4    | Stun Spore              |  221 |  30.91% |  47.51% |
| 5    | Mega Drain              |   66 |   9.23% |  51.52% |
| 6    | Rest                    |   62 |   8.67% |  46.77% |
| 7    | Hyper Beam              |   44 |   6.15% |  63.64% |
| 8    | Double-Edge             |   10 |   1.40% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Egg Bomb                |    2 |   0.28% |   0.00% |

Why are we playing around these moves with <10% frequency? It's just not worth it risking the game to play around something that just isn't even there most of the time.

I am sure it's different on ladder, we're not playing the exact same metagame. The scouting element is a big deal: if I don't bring any normal move Eggy 90%+ of the time, people are going to see that while researching my games, and they're not going to worsen their odds vs. my teams to cover a move that isn't there. So then it will just hit, even if everyone obviously knows that these moves are theoretically viable.
This is not rare in tournament play, and I think it's part of optimal RBY OU play. There are many moves that are good only because people not only don't play around them, but outright shouldn't play around them, provided they've scouted you correctly. You can do a similar thing with Counter Chansey for example.
This is a fundamental difference of Ladder play vs. Tournament play. For me it's absolutely obvious that these "bad" moves have a place in the metagame, because if I don't bring them at all, then my opponents will have complete safety with their Jynx, and in turn that will give them an advantage when I bring the "good" moves (because they can just play around those, instead of having to play around everything). In ladder, people still have to respect your "bad" moves, even if you never use them, because they don't know you specifically. So you lose way less by never bringing them.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

It's not about "seeing it coming", every top player knows that normal move Egg exists. It's a matter of opportunity cost playing around it. You say it's effortless to scout it, but is it really? Say that you have a paralyzed Jynx and everything else healthy, your Chansey is clicking Soft-Boiled, Exeggutor comes in. Are you willing to stay and risk Sleep Powder, when you have a safe option instead? Obviously Jynx is the safe move, then ok some of the time you will soulread your opponent and do something else covering Double Edge or double switches, but not often at all (or you will lose to all the times I'm *not* bringing Double-Edge.)

In just this RBYPL:

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 4    | [Exeggutor]             |  715 |  74.48% |  49.23% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Psychic                 |  527 |  73.71% |  49.43% |
| 2    | Sleep Powder            |  397 |  55.52% |  51.64% |
| 3    | Explosion               |  231 |  32.31% |  55.19% |
| 4    | Stun Spore              |  221 |  30.91% |  47.51% |
| 5    | Mega Drain              |   66 |   9.23% |  51.52% |
| 6    | Rest                    |   62 |   8.67% |  46.77% |
| 7    | Hyper Beam              |   44 |   6.15% |  63.64% |
| 8    | Double-Edge             |   10 |   1.40% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Egg Bomb                |    2 |   0.28% |   0.00% |

Why are we playing around these moves with <10% frequency? It's just not worth it risking the game to play around something that just isn't even there most of the time.

I am sure it's different on ladder, we're not playing the exact same metagame. The scouting element is a big deal: if I don't bring any normal move Eggy 90%+ of the time, people are going to see that while researching my games, and they're not going to worsen their odds vs. my teams to cover a move that isn't there. So then it will just hit, even if everyone obviously knows that these moves are theoretically viable.
This is not rare in tournament play, and I think it's part of optimal RBY OU play. There are many moves that are good only because people not only don't play around them, but outright shouldn't play around them, provided they've scouted you correctly. You can do a similar thing with Counter Chansey for example.
This is a fundamental difference of Ladder play vs. Tournament play. For me it's absolutely obvious that these "bad" moves have a place in the metagame, because if I don't bring them at all, then my opponents will have complete safety with their Jynx, and in turn that will give them an advantage when I bring the "good" moves (because they can just play around those, instead of having to play around everything). In ladder, people still have to respect your "bad" moves, even if you never use them, because they don't know you specifically. So you lose way less by never bringing them.

That's such a specific scenario though. You have to hope to para my Jynx and not my Chansey. And then if I'm not even using these pokes, which I often don't, then hyper beam Egg loses even more usefulness. I don't disagee with what you're saying about bringing bad moves. But I just don't think there is anything about double edge or hyper beam that makes them particularly exceptional in the "bad moves" category. I do fundamentally agree with you on the benefits of the element of surprise. The element of surprise will always be useful in pokemon, but... my only point would be, when putting those moves on your team, you should understand that is their value. That this is not the most consistent move. This is not a great move. And if one is under the illusion that, "Oh yeah, this is the primary move that should go here; it's the one that makes the most sense," then one is surely wrong. It goes there only if you think it'll surprise your opponent. Not for any sound structural reason. That was my only point. That double edge and hyper beam are often used not for surprise (GGFan said he'd never using anything else), but to lacklusterly cover for structural weakness in a team, and one would be better served playing a team that didn't have those weaknesses to begin with.

 

[violet river]

That's such a specific scenario though. You have to hope to para my Jynx and not my Chansey. And then if I'm not even using these pokes, which I often don't, then hyper beam Egg loses even more usefulness. I don't disagee with what you're saying about bringing bad moves. But I just don't think there is anything about double edge or hyper beam that makes them particularly exceptional in the "bad moves" category. I do fundamentally agree with you on the benefits of the element of surprise. The element of surprise will always be useful in pokemon, but... my only point would be, when putting those moves on your team, you should understand that is their value. That this is not the most consistent move. This is not a great move. And if one is under the illusion that, "Oh yeah, this is the primary move that should go here; it's the one that makes the most sense," then one is surely wrong. It goes there only if you think it'll surprise your opponent. Not for any sound structural reason. That was my only point. That double edge and hyper beam are often used not for surprise (GGFan said he'd never using anything else), but to lacklusterly cover for structural weakness in a team, and one would be better served playing a team that didn't have those weaknesses to begin with.

I don't think that hyper beam being reliant on the opponent not scouting it is particularly reliant on the element of surprise. It's not like, for example, Mega Drain Gengar, that hardly ever comes into play, and only ever works in ultra niche situations where people unwittingly sacrifice their Rhydon to it. Dedge/Hyper Beam Exeggutor dominates a paralyzed Jynx(Jynx being paralyzed is Extremely Common), and for the Jynx player to scout around it, like Amaranth said, they have to make huge concessions for a move you're likely not to have. I think you can reasonably treat normal moves on Exeggutor as landing versus Jynx the majority of the time, and it's moreso that your opponent scouting it would be indicative of the element of surprise. This is especially true of Hyper Beam - if your Double Edge gets scouted, so what? Sleep powder is still a huge threat, and now there's no Jynx in your face.
Tldr: I agree that moves that have their value tied to surprise factor are bad, and I like consistent value, but I view normal moves on Exeggutor as consistently landing into Jynx, and it's far and away the outlier for Jynx to tactfully evade a Double Edge.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I don't think that hyper beam being reliant on the opponent not scouting it is particularly reliant on the element of surprise. It's not like, for example, Mega Drain Gengar, that hardly ever comes into play, and only ever works in ultra niche situations where people unwittingly sacrifice their Rhydon to it. Dedge/Hyper Beam Exeggutor dominates a paralyzed Jynx(Jynx being paralyzed is Extremely Common), and for the Jynx player to scout around it, like Amaranth said, they have to make huge concessions for a move you're likely not to have. I think you can reasonably treat normal moves on Exeggutor as landing versus Jynx the majority of the time, and it's moreso that your opponent scouting it would be indicative of the element of surprise. This is especially true of Hyper Beam - if your Double Edge gets scouted, so what? Sleep powder is still a huge threat, and now there's no Jynx in your face.
Tldr: I agree that moves that have their value tied to surprise factor are bad, and I like consistent value, but I view normal moves on Exeggutor as consistently landing into Jynx, and it's far and away the outlier for Jynx to tactfully evade a Double Edge.

This is one darn pokemon. Only one. One which your dirty little plan might not even prevail against. Starmie doesn't care about this crap.

 

[violet river]

This is one darn pokemon. Only one. One which your dirty little plan might not even prevail against. Starmie doesn't care about this crap.

It's just a pretty common pokemon, and it's otherwise quite hard to be good into it. People run Gengar lead almost exclusively for the Jynx matchup, despite starting on the back foot versus a lot of other things, because dissuading Jynx is just so valuable. Giving up the moveslot on your Exeggutor when your team would otherwise be quite awful into Jynx is just what you do when you teambuild, in my opinion.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

I think the only true correct opening is Jynx, because, if you value sleep more than paralysis, and idk why you wouldn't, sleep clause is a thing. Gengar as mentioned is countered by the two most common leads starmie, and Alakazam, and Jynx being psychic type means it's very similar to those two. fast fire types that would ordinarily counter Jynx, can't because of Alakazam and Starmie usage rates. Zapdos isn't ahead of Jynx, Jolteon isn't really ahead either because of how much more it's risking by getting status. There's no way to counter Jynx with sleep without being far worse off against the total range of things you would face. Gengar is forced out often, creating a problem with the range of opponents he faces. Jynx always, unless it's being directly countered by a fast fire type, or Gengar explosion, or otherwise niche outliers, Jynx always will get that sleep off. Over long stretches of time, Jynx being ice type means I will get an extra freeze that an opponent would of got against me if I hadn't used an ice type. I think Jynx is S-Tier, but idk how to sway any opinions that hard. Its just because it facilitates the early game with purpose exceptionally well. Jynx does taper off in value as the game goes on usually. Getting sleep off first, means chances at freezing, critting etc. I think the game should start off with an idea, like "I'm getting sleep off first, because I value getting that part done". Then branch off from, if I'm using Jynx, what else should I use?

This is fundamentally flawed thinking.

To paraphrase, you said "Everyone should always use jynx because its counter lead is countered by 2 of the most popular leads."
People stop using Starmie and Gengar and Zam and start using Jynx -> People start using Gengar and Tauros to counter Jynx -> People start using alakazam and starmie to counter gengar and Tauros, and just sleep sack into jynx -> People start running electrics to Anti-Lead Starmie. ("->" represents meta shifts.)

We are QUITE LITERALLY right back where we are started, which is NOT using jynx 100% of the time.

Also not to be like that, but all of your posts are based on the fundamental misunderstanding that ladder is the peak of competition, and that anything you pull from there is completely transelateable to tournaments. Newsflash, its not. Some people are low on lead jynx so you use gengar very little against them, some people are low on lead gengar so you load more jynx, some people are high on gengar so you load more alakazam, etc. You cant just make general rules like this and then post it in our thread and not get backlash from it. We HAVE a ladder thread for a reason. And you also have to understand that people wont stop loading gengar regardless of its place in the ladder metagame, as its ladder. It will always exist so jynx will always have to worry about it.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

That's more like icing on the cake, primarily I believe why people should use Jynx is, that a strong starting objective should be to get your own sleep off, and Jynx is the best mon to do that, based off of usage rates, I didn't say everyone had to use it. I'm just saying I think it's S tier.

>I think the only true correct opening is Jynx,

Uh huh.

Anyways yeah it was just me oversimplifying its 1 am i apologize for that.

However this is still just absolute air. THE strongest starting objective is to get your own sleep off, and yes jynx is the best mon at doing that, but its facing 2 dedicated sleep sacks both with their own ways of getting off sleep (Hence T1 chansey and T1 exeggutor vs Twave leads is so popular) that twave her to push sleep past her ASAP, Fast electric types that can cheese jynx easily (If Kiss misses or jynx blizzards zapdos can peck -> beam, or just twave and get slept or lead into peck, can also very rarely 2hko with peck, and jolt can pin missile her down + twave hax, and most likely backing exeggutor), and a demon genetically designed to be both a slot machine AND her worst nightmare while also being a sleeper, as well as an ensamble of other leads that She isnt meant to ever see, barring the Bull that will tear her to shreds (Who, suprise! Also has a gameplan for sleep.)

Mons is also just so much more than early game. Majority of the mons in the game Happen to work good in all 3 stages of the game, early, middle, and late. In most cases it is a MIRACLE jynx isnt serverely hindered by the middle game, let alone late. Her dominance in the starting turns of the game is what earned her a B tier spot, but all the mons above her just do more stuff and sometimes more valuable stuff across the course of a game, as well as other mons being able to take her spot on teams to compensate in places she doesnt.

She being the best sleeper does not inherently make her S tier, it just makes her the best sleeper.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Well, when I'm thinking about it, I consider sleep to be near functionally as useful as something like 85% of a KO. Jynx needs do little more than land an LK and a blizzard to meet it's 1:1 requirement.

Edit: what this means is that if each mon achieved it's 1:1 or more purpose, than you win. So Jynx only needs to achieve an LK and like 2-3 blizzards and it's already there.
(Stacking 9% frz chances)
85%+9%'s....you can adjust what you think the sleep to Ko conversation ratio is and add that you would need to land more blizzards to make the 1:1. Such as if you think getting sleep is only half of a KO, than you would do this:
100%-50%=50% so we need to get LK+
6 blizzards (9% each) on average to meet your personal standard of having Jynx achieve your version of its 1:1.

Edit2: this was under the assumption that frz=KO, but obviously it is less than a KO, because frz, blocks frz. So let's say it's 97% of a KO? Idk.

Tldr; So like, my point is it's easy for Jynx to meet it's quotient of usefulness required to win a match, and that is that it provides at least that it captures the equivalent of 1 mon or more before it goes down. If sleep is between 50-85% of a KO than Jynx needs to land between 2-6 blizzards on non ice or ice move blocking targets to meet it's quotient to win,provided that you know that each blizzard is about 9% to freeze. Jynx is likely to land within this 2-6 range of blizzards on average, so Jynx usually will meet quota, or will be close to quota every game, and it's very easy for anyone to play jynx to be either near 1:1 or above 1:1, with not much skill needed, Jynx is simple.

And this is why I think Jynx is S-Tier, is because anyone can play Jynx and have great results.
***(For what its relative turns were when it was in play)!

The questions you have to ask yourself is: What do you believe getting sleep in the match is worth relative to a KO? And what is freeze worth relative to a KO?
If you believe sleep is worth between 50-85% of a KO, and freeze is 90%+ of a KO, than getting LK+2-6 blizzards is the average that Jynx must do to be a self-sustainable winner of games.
......But, its always easy for jynx to come close to this don't you think? All it takes is clicking LK turn 0 gets most of this, and only needing to do a few more things like, landing a few blizzards or even blocking a few blizzards, blocking sleep, or doing damage,

if Jynx lands sleep and does anything else than it already met quota imo.

.....Actually it's as simple as if Jynx lands sleep, and then blocks sleep by taking sleep, than....it's already near its 1:1 quota.lol.

They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%

 

[violet river]

They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%

It's also important, in my opinion, that just getting a sleep doesn't count as a ko because you could have just got that sleep later. If jynx has to die for the sleep and a blizzard, but an Exeggutor could have sleep powdered and kept a 75% health Exeggutor...is that really a good Jynx?

 

[dangerk1d]

CC
They can be qualitatively converted to a KO, yes your right that Gengar gets some extra equity,.but it is trivial percentages, like because it's frzn Gengar its 92% of a Ko instead of 97%. These things can absolutely be converted, because I'm just comparing how useful something is.

How useful is freeze relative to a KO?
...are you trying to say this doesn't have an answer?

This is something with an Answer.

I would personally avoid using numbers and percentages in this abstract metaphorical way. Numbers are empirical and should be based in concrete data rather than arbitrary assumptions when possible, anything else is confusing and muddling. I don't think these pseudo-stats are an effective means of illustrating your point.

 

[violet river]

Than how can we establish how a queen is worth 8 pts in chess? It takes abstract thought to understand how a queen is 8 pts and a rook is 5 pts. If a KO is 1 pt, what is a sleep worth relative to a KO? Can't I ask that?
We can start with an estimate, and move to empirical data, such as how often does an asleep thing wake and up and then not fall back to sleep.same turn?

I just think it's silly when you say things like:
Zam has a 108% chance of running into a bad opening

 

[Amaranth]

Than how can we establish how a queen is worth 8 pts in chess? It takes abstract thought to understand how a queen is 8 pts and a rook is 5 pts. If a KO is 1 pt, what is a sleep worth relative to a KO? Can't I ask that?
We can start with an estimate, and move to empirical data, such as how often does an asleep thing wake and up and then not fall back to sleep.same turn?

A queen is worth 9pts btw

And anyone who knows any actual chess also would know that the evaluation of the position isn't just adding up the material. You can be down material and have the eval be like +5 under some conditions. If you want to look into chess some more and learn something from it that you can then bring back to Pokemon - great, I think it's useful - but this is not how anything works

 

[Amaranth]

You know what I mean though, someone had to establish the relative value of the pieces by comparing them at some point.
A KO can absolutely be compared to a sleep and a freeze for it's value just like this, can't we come together and just say we can do that?

Sure, you count the pokemon on each side and then you say "this guy is frozen so if I play well he's kinda dead", "i have zapdos vs rhydon so i have some disadvantage", etc. This is useful to do in a game situation. It is not very useful to do in abstract, and it's certainly not useful to do it with percentages that don't mean anything.

Very frequently my evaluation of a position starts with counting the pokemon on each side and approximating (slept, frozen, paralyzed on low hp etc.) as basically dead. That's fine for a starting point. But then you have to think about all the differences between how the remaining pokemon match up with each other, how slept/frozen pokemon can be used for tempo in various ways, and all such nuances - and that's where people have an issue with your posts. Because you start listing random numbers devoid of all context.

Chess piece approximation is easy, the pieces in most situations are about as good as they always are. A Bishop is a Bishop, there can be some positional concerns but you're not going to have a paralyzed 60% HP Bishop. You're not going to have a Bishop with an unrevealed move that the opponent must play around. It's a Bishop and it will be roughly worth the same as it always is, in almost all game scenarios. So even if we hypothetically come together to agree that Alakazam is exactly 1 and Gengar is 0.9, but slept Alakazam is 0.15 and slept Gengar is 0.25 - what purpose does this exercise serve? You will have to re-approximate from those base values based on what's on the enemy team, whether you managed to burn sleep turns, a million other things, all the way down to converting mindgames and playstyle reads to numerical estimates if we really go all the way. Because we're playing against humans not bots, so of course those are important too. We're never going to have accurate numerical approximation for all of these scenarios, nothing close to it. We guess and we see who's right by the end of the game.

You are not going to math out who's the best lead. It's a completely impractical idea and the attempts have visibly led you to faulty conclusions. Nobody has an issue with the idea of approximating the evaluation of a game position, it's the way you get to your numbers that people find ludicrous, and the idea that instead of saying "the position seems slightly favored", you pull some insane number with no context to it, as if it's at all helpful to this exercise.

Practically, if someone finds out the "best lead" objectively, we will know. They will start winning a ton of games and everyone will notice and catch up. This is how progress is made.
Progress is not made by agreeing on "how much of a % of a full KO is sleep equivalent to". Any generic answer will extremely frequently lead you astray, you always have to tune it up or down. It's "kind of a KO but obviously not", you figure out the rest with your brain on a case by case basis.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

High A:
Mid A:
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
Classic Zam + Mie (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)

Alright, I finally have a new edition to the tier list. One of the hardest things about making these team tier lists is coming up with the names. I'm not sure what to call this next one, so I'm just going to generically call it Zap!

Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/ annnnnnnddddddd Zapdos!!!!!!

And it will be going in *drruummm rolllllllll*

Mid A!!!

Congratulations!

High A:
Mid A: Zap! (Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/Zapdos)
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
The Specials (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)

Finally, someone fixed the specials team's lack of firing power. Not with counter chansey. Not with hyper beam exeggutor. But with Zapdos! Brilliant! And it doesn't even miss Chansey. The Cholaski is very good. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, but it doesn't want to see thunderbolt Tauros. Granted, very few people use that, so most of the time, it is smooth sailing, but if one suspects the opponent is using thunderbolt tauros, it forces one to play riskier in order to counteract that. Zap! on the other hand really only has Rhydon to deal with and honestly, I just don't have that much of an issue beating those teams. If that is the best the opponent can do to counter this team, then this team definitely has to go above The Cholaski. As Lusch said in his viability rankings, Zapdos is one of the best comeback pokemon. The value of that cannot be overstated in a game like this. If you are a skilled player in this game, you win the games you should win most of the time, but then there is a smaller percentage of games that the game tries to decide that you should just lose. Zapdos tries its best to annihilate the latter, increasing what your winrate would otherwise be.

Idk if I'll add to this again, but I'm very happy that I at least started this. If anyone wants to add to this (even lower tiers like C tier), or disagree with me and change the teams around, that would be cool. I just think a team tier list, in and of itself, is very valueable, and the most valueable thing that could come out of it is it changing the way we speak about the game (such as team weaknesses and team strengths), which would be very valuable in just giving us a new conceptual framework in which to think about the game.

 

[violet river]

Alright, I finally have a new edition to the tier list. One of the hardest things about making these team tier lists is coming up with the names. I'm not sure what to call this next one, so I'm just going to generically call it Zap!

Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/ annnnnnnddddddd Zapdos!!!!!!

And it will be going in *drruummm rolllllllll*

Mid A!!!

Congratulations!

High A:
Mid A: Zap! (Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/Zapdos)
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
The Specials (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)

Finally, someone fixed the specials team's lack of firing power. Not with counter chansey. Not with hyper beam exeggutor. But with Zapdos! Brilliant! And it doesn't even miss Chansey. The Cholaski is very good. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, but it doesn't want to see thunderbolt Tauros. Granted, very few people use that, so most of the time, it is smooth sailing, but if one suspects the opponent is using thunderbolt tauros, it forces one to play riskier in order to counteract that. Zap! on the other hand really only has Rhydon to deal with and honestly, I just don't have that much of an issue beating those teams. If that is the best the opponent can do to counter this team, then this team definitely has to go above The Cholaski. As Lusch said in his viability rankings, Zapdos is one of the best comeback pokemon. The value of that cannot be overstated in a game like this. If you are a skilled player in this game, you win the games you should win most of the time, but then there is a smaller percentage of games that the game tries to decide that you should just lose. Zapdos tries its best to annihilate the latter, increasing what your winrate would otherwise be.

Idk if I'll add to this again, but I'm very happy that I at least started this. If anyone wants to add to this (even lower tiers like C tier), or disagree with me and change the teams around, that would be cool. I just think a team tier list, in and of itself, is very valueable, and the most valueable thing that could come out of it is it changing the way we speak about the game (such as team weaknesses and team strenghts), which would be very valuable in just giving us a new conceptual framework in which to think about the game.

I totally agree that a tier list ranking of teams is a useful exercise. Depending on how much time I spend on dinner tonight I'll try contribute here

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Similar in structure to what I’ve referred to as the Big 5 Leads of ADV OU before (Skarmory, Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, and Zapdos), I do believe there to be a pretty set-in-stone top tier of leads in RBY OU. It seems to me like what some of you have been discussing is how you’d order these leads in terms of viability. I for one would be all for RBY organizing a separate VR just for leads alongside the main VR the whole metagame, but for now I want to just focus on highlighting the groundwork for a Big 6 or Big 7 (don’t even think about it, I know what you’re getting ready to type) Leads of RBY OU and what that might look like.

At the top of my personal lead rankings you have Starmie and Alakazam, both of which sometimes combine for over 50% of weighted lead usage on the ladder and have more than enough tournament results to prove their excellence. If I had to pick which one I think is better as a lead, it’s really close between the two but currently I’m leaning towards Team Starmie though I have gone back and forth plenty of times. The value of a Turn 1 Thunder Wave combined with high Speed and Psychic typing is invaluable, but the one thing that does worry me about these leads is that I have had plenty of games where the opponent’s Chansey is able to come in a little too easily and absorb paralysis for the sake of preventing it from falling asleep or becoming frozen. Lead Zapdos can also be trouble occasionally if you’re not running Rhydon, but you make up for this with favorable matchups against Gengar and Jynx leads and more even matchups against Exeggutor and Jolteon leads depending on each Pokémon’s set.

Gengar, Jynx, Chansey, and the Electrics make up my second tier, and recently I’ve started discovering Exeggutor to also be viable in the lead slot though I don’t see this as much on ladder as the others. Their matchups with each other are can be more varied and it’s here where we start to see the battle between Paralysis leads and Sleep leads. Shoutouts to Exeggutor who can use both and also Explosion, by the way. Gengar and Jynx are the fastest viable sleepers in the tier and similar to my Top 2, I often go back and forth between them a lot. Both hate being paralyzed and Gengar can outspeed Jynx in a head-to-head so I want to lean Gengar here, but Jynx also has Ice/Psychic typing and the more accurate sleep move of the two. That, and you managed to convince me Jynx is, in fact, not a fraudulent Pokémon in this tier like I thought for years. On the other side of the spectrum, Chansey can often appreciate being paralyzed but is much slower and hates being put to sleep. Chansey has access to both Sing and Thunder Wave and matches up the best into the Top 2, but can struggle with the mid-tier leads. Finally, the Electrics, who have the fastest Thunder Wave in Jolteon and Agility Zapdos as well, and Zapdos also has mixed attacking STAB which is nice, but both can struggle with Chansey, are worse sleep absorbers than the fast Psychic-Types and have the added disadvantage of inviting in Rhydon early. I like Zapdos over Jolteon here. How would you guys rank these seven Pokémon (plus Exeggutor)?

Starmie is better. You want to avoid paralysis in general so you can instead get sleep or freeze, as that gives you a much bigger momentum boost than thunderwave, UNLESS you are thunderwaving the right things. Starmie is better both because it has better options than zam outside of thunderwave (well... a better option, ice>seismic toss), but even its thunderwave is better because it can thunderwave more valuable targets than zam, because those valuable targets like to stay in on Starmie, such as Jolteon. Pressing thunderwave on Jolteon is a little risky, but it is devastating. Lead Jolt does not want to be paralyzed. Huge early game momentum swing.

Edit: Also, having ice moves against Exeggutor is huge. Freezing Chansey is also nice. But even worst case scenario, paralyzing Chansey is also much better than having to thunderwave Exeggutor and just press seismic toss until he sleeps you. Paralyzed Chansey is obviously weak to your physical hitters and there is an obvious game plan to get rid of her. Whereas para'd Egg is still a real pain that you really have to watch out for. It's a worse trade off than para'd Chansey.

Edit 2: Just to be more concrete. Jynx is actually not a favorable match up for Starmie. Starmie wants to thunderwave Jynx, Jynx knows this and wants to switch to Chansey to catch the thunderwave. I press thunderwave more often than not and like I said... It's not the end of the world if they switch to Chansey.

Against Gengar, press psychic.

Against Alakazam, press ice. If he paralyzes you, switch to egg.

Against opposing Starmie, press ice.

Against Zapdos, if no Rhydon... this is not fun, but generally ice is good.

Against Tauros, thunderwave is the safe option, if you think he'll switch to Chansey, ice is good.

 

[violet river]

Alright, I finally have a new edition to the tier list. One of the hardest things about making these team tier lists is coming up with the names. I'm not sure what to call this next one, so I'm just going to generically call it Zap!

Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/ annnnnnnddddddd Zapdos!!!!!!

And it will be going in *drruummm rolllllllll*

Mid A!!!

Congratulations!

High A:
Mid A: Zap! (Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/Zapdos)
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
The Specials (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)

Finally, someone fixed the specials team's lack of firing power. Not with counter chansey. Not with hyper beam exeggutor. But with Zapdos! Brilliant! And it doesn't even miss Chansey. The Cholaski is very good. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, but it doesn't want to see thunderbolt Tauros. Granted, very few people use that, so most of the time, it is smooth sailing, but if one suspects the opponent is using thunderbolt tauros, it forces one to play riskier in order to counteract that. Zap! on the other hand really only has Rhydon to deal with and honestly, I just don't have that much of an issue beating those teams. If that is the best the opponent can do to counter this team, then this team definitely has to go above The Cholaski. As Lusch said in his viability rankings, Zapdos is one of the best comeback pokemon. The value of that cannot be overstated in a game like this. If you are a skilled player in this game, you win the games you should win most of the time, but then there is a smaller percentage of games that the game tries to decide that you should just lose. Zapdos tries its best to annihilate the latter, increasing what your winrate would otherwise be.

Idk if I'll add to this again, but I'm very happy that I at least started this. If anyone wants to add to this (even lower tiers like C tier), or disagree with me and change the teams around, that would be cool. I just think a team tier list, in and of itself, is very valueable, and the most valueable thing that could come out of it is it changing the way we speak about the game (such as team weaknesses and team strengths), which would be very valuable in just giving us a new conceptual framework in which to think about the game.

I'd like to nominate JynxMieDon for tiering purposes:
JynxMieDon is a team that features relative bull resilience, in that Jynx and Rhydon both give Tauros turns and are scared by it, so this team fitting Back Starmie and Snorlax is great. Jynx often sleeps a fast pokemon(ideally Starmie) that would otherwise check Rhydon/Tauros, you can start paralysing things quickly and getting Rhydon/Snorlax online. Conventionally, this team runs single sleeper Jynx, but there are alternate builds with Sing Chansey. As a Jynx team, there's an obvious weakness to Gengar lead, but Rhydon evens it out versus a lot of Gengar squads - the ones featuring Zapdos and/or SingToss Chansey. Gengar exploding turn one into another sleeper coming out can be a pretty devastating line for this team, though(at least solosleep variations of it). Sing Chansey means that it beats Starmie and such worse, and you have to run Tbolt Starmie, and this means your own Starmie takes paralysis a lot more, so the concession to me is that your team becomes worse versus Rhydon and Tauros, but you shore up versus aggressive enemy sleep teams(and if you lose the Jynx tie).
The worst matchups are Gengar teams that don't feature a Zapdos(so you dont gain the advantage back with Rhydon vs Zapdos dynamics), such as GarEggMie and GarEggCloy. It's also very undesirable versus other Jynx teams when you lose the tie turn one.
However, the matchups versus Zapdos teams across the board, and Psychic spam teams(because you get to push with Snorlax so early into the game) are great! I think this team has generally positive matchups when it verses anything but Gengar without Zapdos, or losing the tie to Jynx teams.
I like Reflect/Hyper Beam Snorlax, in that it punishes the aggressive Gengar boom turn one line - sure, they get to sleep a different mon, but usually that Snorlax set is an enormous threat past that point.
I would like to nominate JynxMieDon for a B+/A- ranking. It's a perfectly good Jynx team that has generally positive matchups across the board, and leverages advantages in ones that would otherwise be poor(Rhydon vs GarZap especially). I don't like how awkward the gamestates can be when you lose the Jynx turn one speed tie, and versus some specific Gengar teams it can be awfully hard to play. It's still not autolost by any means though.

 

[violet river]

Alright, I finally have a new edition to the tier list. One of the hardest things about making these team tier lists is coming up with the names. I'm not sure what to call this next one, so I'm just going to generically call it Zap!

Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/ annnnnnnddddddd Zapdos!!!!!!

And it will be going in *drruummm rolllllllll*

Mid A!!!

Congratulations!

High A:
Mid A: Zap! (Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/Zapdos)
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
The Specials (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)

Finally, someone fixed the specials team's lack of firing power. Not with counter chansey. Not with hyper beam exeggutor. But with Zapdos! Brilliant! And it doesn't even miss Chansey. The Cholaski is very good. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, but it doesn't want to see thunderbolt Tauros. Granted, very few people use that, so most of the time, it is smooth sailing, but if one suspects the opponent is using thunderbolt tauros, it forces one to play riskier in order to counteract that. Zap! on the other hand really only has Rhydon to deal with and honestly, I just don't have that much of an issue beating those teams. If that is the best the opponent can do to counter this team, then this team definitely has to go above The Cholaski. As Lusch said in his viability rankings, Zapdos is one of the best comeback pokemon. The value of that cannot be overstated in a game like this. If you are a skilled player in this game, you win the games you should win most of the time, but then there is a smaller percentage of games that the game tries to decide that you should just lose. Zapdos tries its best to annihilate the latter, increasing what your winrate would otherwise be.

Idk if I'll add to this again, but I'm very happy that I at least started this. If anyone wants to add to this (even lower tiers like C tier), or disagree with me and change the teams around, that would be cool. I just think a team tier list, in and of itself, is very valueable, and the most valueable thing that could come out of it is it changing the way we speak about the game (such as team weaknesses and team strengths), which would be very valuable in just giving us a new conceptual framework in which to think about the game.

When you run this team, you may notice a weakness to lead lines versus Jynx. As discussed yesterday(?) I think that Double Edge Exeggutor is a great fit here - Alakazam is often taking and trading thunder waves, and Exeggutor isnt useless without it.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

When you run this team, you may notice a weakness to lead lines versus Jynx. As discussed yesterday(?) I think that Double Edge Exeggutor is a great fit here - Alakazam is often taking and trading thunder waves, and Exeggutor isnt useless without it.

I mean, that would be cool to have I guess when I’m in that situation, but honestly it’s not really a weakness. Jynx is very easy to wear down, even with just psychic, and her rest is nothing special. You can also abuse her switch in to throw lax in, or tauros sometimes, depending on the situation. I have never once thought, “Man, this Jynx is just walling me. There is nothing I can do! If only I had double edge Exeggutor.” It’s, most of the time, just not worth it. I rather have stun spore for when I need it.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Just thought I’d say this, because I’m becoming very suspicious of what people’s opinions are on this move. Stun spore is really good. Very often coming in clutch. Very often having game changing butterfly effects. You should have reaaaaallllyy good justifications for dropping it. It’s not an easy drop. Even when I use mega drain, I drop sleep on egg instead of stun spore.

 

[bdt2002]

Most of the time split getting a Thunder Wave off on Jynx (unless my Thunder Wave user is Zapdos) is enough for me to handle it defensively. Jynx tends to rely a lot on low PP STAB options which can often thud into a lot of my favorite Pokémon I like use on my teams, namely Chansey and opposing Psychics. Jynx can be a threat to slower Pokémon especially if it lands a Lovely Kiss on Snorlax (who lacks Thunder Wave but has Body Slam) or Chansey, but in terms of threat level I would go as far as to say a paralyzed Jynx is one of my least concerns. The issue isn’t that Jynx is passive or anything; I just feel like it doesn’t match up well into the tier’s best Thunder Wave users and from there Jynx’s offensive progress can fall a bit flat for me.

Compare this to GSC Jynx, a Pokémon who for a long time wasn’t even considered a true OU staple. I’ve always thought Jynx was not just underrated, but actually better than it was in RBY despite the nerfs to its typing and Sleep. The key difference here is that, while Dark and Steel-Types can still be an issue, Jynx actually has more real targets to check now besides just its previous ones. Fighting and Ground-Types were both buffed in Gen 2 and neither appreciate Jynx’s presence, and even neutral matchups and the longer list of slower Pokémon aren’t always running Sleep Talk. One of Jynx’s worst matchups in Tauros is also virtually absent from GSC as a nice bonus. What all of this means is that RBY Jynx can struggle to make progress despite not inherently being passive because of how the metagame has evolved around it, and crippling Jynx’s defining trait, its fast sleep by means of paralyzing it, feels much more harmful to it than in GSC where a weakened Jynx can still at least threaten to do something to a defensive check whether that be through Thief or Lovely Kiss or what have you.

 

[bdt2002]

Just thought I’d say this, because I’m becoming very suspicious of what people’s opinions are on this move. Stun spore is really good. Very often coming in clutch. Very often having game changing butterfly effects. You should have reaaaaallllyy good justifications for dropping it. It’s not an easy drop. Even when I use mega drain, I drop sleep on egg instead of stun spore.

Stun Spore Exeggutor is super clutch when it has absolutely no reason to be and I love it for that. If I want a 75% accurate sleep move being used by a Psychic-Type, I’m taking Jynx’s Lovely Kiss over this if my team already has something that can assist with keeping Jynx away from being statused itself. However, Exeggutor is much less hampered by paralysis than Jynx is and Stun Spore sets can even use the threat of a Sleep Powder to catch a usual check by surprise and paralyze it instead. Having both as viable options enables more team building flexibility in combination with your choice of two to three attacking moves rounding out your Exeggutor’s moveset, and Stun Spore goes a long way in enabling Exeggutor to make offensive progress and also to help support the team in the long term picture.

Stun Spore Victreebel is another Pokémon that’s not seen much in OU at least not currently but I think highly of it for similar reasons. Not having Explosion hurts it a lot here in the Exeggutor comparison, though, and the viability of Wrap teams being as variable as they are feels like it holds back Victreebel’s place in the OU metagame somewhat outside of those specific teams. Basically what I’m trying to say is that Exeggutor can do more with its Stun Spore than Victreebel can do on its own. Ultimately I do still like the option so Victreebel can at least do something to Gengar if a teammate has absorbed sleep, as Gengar is a Pokémon I feel like was practically made for the Wrap spam matchup. Or you could just, you know, use Exeggutor instead of Victreebel on most teams. That works too.

 

[Lillilee]

While we're discussing the best Zapdos teams, I wanna call back to an earlier part of the thread. When Amaranth responded to me inquiring about what cases Golem can be used over Rhydon ( after my ignorant claim on Golem being strictly outclassed mon to Rhydon ), they mentioned the offensive case of pairing them with Zap and in the case of a Rhydon mu, swapping Zap in on eq and Golem into slide is loosely playable. I think if I'm anticipating a Rhydon mu or find myself facing one on ladder and need something to deter opp Zapdos and Rhydon, Golem fairs well ( tho it's not lost on me that a variety of OU staples do deter these mons too ), especially with the support from the team members I place them within my most recent teambuild, Gar/Zap/Cloy/Pink & Lax( with the fair possibility of swapping a member for Double Status Eggy ), all of which who can run a set to nuke the opps mons, do. I'll face some good folks on the ladder and post replays when I get the chance :), but please if anyone has thoughts on this team comp, direct it to me! Happy holidays folks <3, here's to another year of RBY in 2026 and all that entails~

 

[GirlsSeeGhosts]

So I was cross comparing how RBYPL VI Usage Stats compare to the1760+ Glicko lead stats for RBY this month.
This is what I've got:
RBYPL VI:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Jynx 25.93%
| 2 | Starmie 23.61%
| 3 | Alakazam 22.53%
| 4 | Gengar 16.36%

--------Glicko 1760+ Stats:
| 1| Alakazam | 30.90857%
| 2 | Starmie | 24.60772%
| 3 | Jynx | 20.06382%
| 4 | Gengar | 11.51512%
----------+
This is what I learned:
For RBYPL:
Lead Alakazam has -27%
Lead Starmie has -4%
Lead Jynx has +26%
Lead Gengar has +34.2%
-------------+
What this all means is sleeper leads are extremely more common among RBYPL for leading than the 1760+.

Also interesting:
Starmie+Zam are 46% of RBYPL leads
Starmie+Zam are 44% of 1760+ leads
----------+
Jynx+Gar are 44% of RBYPL leads
Jynx+Gar are ONLY 31% of 1760+leads
-----------+
What the above shows is Starmie+Zam kept relatively similar usage rates while sleeper usage rates increased by 30%. So leading sleep is 30% more common in RBYPL compared to even the highest rated ladder games.

Which is sort of proving my theory that leading sleep is the only correct choice.

it's an incredible bit to say that leading sleep is correct because RBYPL players lead sleep more than the ladder, while also showing the stats that RBYPL players lead with Starmie/Zam more than Jynx/Gengar

 

[violet river]

So I was cross comparing how RBYPL VI Usage Stats compare to the1760+ Glicko lead stats for RBY this month.
This is what I've got:
RBYPL VI:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Jynx 25.93%
| 2 | Starmie 23.61%
| 3 | Alakazam 22.53%
| 4 | Gengar 16.36%

--------Glicko 1760+ Stats:
| 1| Alakazam | 30.90857%
| 2 | Starmie | 24.60772%
| 3 | Jynx | 20.06382%
| 4 | Gengar | 11.51512%
----------+
This is what I learned:
For RBYPL:
Lead Alakazam has -27%
Lead Starmie has -4%
Lead Jynx has +26%
Lead Gengar has +34.2%
-------------+
What this all means is sleeper leads are extremely more common among RBYPL for leading than the 1760+.

Also interesting:
Starmie+Zam are 46% of RBYPL leads
Starmie+Zam are 44% of 1760+ leads
----------+
Jynx+Gar are 44% of RBYPL leads
Jynx+Gar are ONLY 31% of 1760+leads
-----------+
What the above shows is Starmie+Zam kept relatively similar usage rates while sleeper usage rates increased by 30%. So leading sleep is 30% more common in RBYPL compared to even the highest rated ladder games.

Which is sort of proving my theory that leading sleep is the only correct choice.

it's worth mentioning that in tournament play, people have more respect for their opponents - using Gengar and its 60% accurate Hypnosis is a lot less attractive when you're trying to have a 90% winrate on the ladder, compared to when you're trying to having an above 50% chance of beating a strong opponent in tournament play.