Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[ToF]

Salamence is nowhere near good enough to be uber. While its attacking capabilities are like a miniature of Rayquaza, it's speed is shit, and its defences are nowhere near as good as they could be. Testing Salamence is a complete waste of time

Obviously this post is irrelevant to the conversation. If Salamence is shown to ravage through the metagame, the fact that its attacking stats are inferior is irrelevant to its tier placement. The defenses comment is just not backed with any information at all. Salamence, with Intimidate, has the ability to counter the premier fighters of OU, namely Lucario and Salamence. So, is it really a waste of time?

 

[Aquamentus]

If mence requires you to have 3 counters for it on your team, doesn't that strike you as a bit overcentralizing?

Only Porygon2 is intended to counter it. What team doesn't have a special wall and at least one steel type? And besides, all 3 of the Mence checks I mentioned do other things. In fact, only my Porygon2 has an ice attack in its arsenal.You don't need to pack multiple, overspecialized counters for this thing like with Garchomp. Most things that stop it have other uses and would probably still be used even if it was gone (Porygon2 also stops Gyarados, Steel Pokemon have lots of useful resistances besides Dragon, and Blissey is obviously a standard). So I wasn't forced to use these, I had them anyway.

I'll take note of the CBMence weakness though. >_>

 

[AeroGP]

I think we should solidify the line between OU and Uber before we even begin to discuss making another suspect out of a top sweeper. Otherwise, we're going to continue to do this every time a significant change happens, wasting our time chasing Red Herrings until we inevitably do get to solidifying the line and finding out who truly belongs and who doesn't.

Yes, it's counter-productive to discussion, but maybe it's better this way so that we don't make any hasty policy decisions that might take us in the wrong direction.

 

[cyberzero]

Salamence is undoubtedly a powerful Pokemon and keeping it in check is indeed a difficult proposition, but anything Bulky can usually take whatever set it is. Gyarados, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Pory2, anything that you can bring in just to discover what set is being used. Once the set is discovered, it makes it a whole lot easier to deal with.

Then of course, there is the foolproof-unless-it-has-yache Ice Shard. Salamence is great, top-tier, but far from invincible.

 

[Relictivity]

Salamence is undoubtedly a powerful Pokemon and keeping it in check is indeed a difficult proposition, but anything Bulky can usually take whatever set it is. No, they can't, that is why Cressalia can be close to 2HKOd. And Cressalia is bulky. Gyarados, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Pory2, anything that you can bring in just to discover what set is being used. Pory 2 I agree with (though it will probably die). The others - no. They are endangered by certain moves Salamence carries. Once the set is discovered, it makes it a whole lot easier to deal with. Are you willing to doom one of your pokemon just to find out what set it is. Is Salamence only beatable in this manner. Because if so, that is why suspect test would be a good idea.

Then of course, there is the foolproof-unless-it-has-yache Ice Shard. Salamence is great, top-tier, but far from invincible. This is the reason Salamence sometimes carries Yache. It was also the reason Garchomp carried Yache. Yache makes these pokemon really, really, really hard to beat.

Comments in Bold.
Have not voted in the poll, waiting for more discussion to help me decide.

Also, a response to Darkerai

Salamence can utilize his Special Attack more than Garchomp could. That makes it a more versatile attcker.
The extra Special Attack on Salamence helps out with Bronzong.
And Toxic Spikes are important. Garchomp cannot continue sweeping with +2 attack if it is taking 35% damage and growing per turn. In other words, it limited it's sweeping time length. Because a pokemon that is badly poisoned cannot take the time to set up Swords Dance usually.

Response to Aguamentus.

Not a Special Wall, but a mixed wall. It HAS to be a mixed wall. And Steels in general (with exceptions of their few immunities) don't like Ground or Fire moves. And, though weak, Salamence can use Brick Break along with Outrage and Draco Meteor.

Response to Nobody in General

Salamence is at it's weakest point when it ends it's outrage. So if you plan to let it kill 2+ of your pokemon wating for that oppurtunity, I wonder why you would even consider that?

Just a note for everyone: It is being suggested that Salamence be performed after the uber suspects, so we have plenty of time.

 

[haunter]

Obviously this post is irrelevant to the conversation. If Salamence is shown to ravage through the metagame, the fact that its attacking stats are inferior is irrelevant to its tier placement. The defenses comment is just not backed with any information at all. Salamence, with Intimidate, has the ability to counter the premier fighters of OU, namely Lucario and Heracross. So, is it really a waste of time?

I don't know if salamence meets the offensive characteristic to be tested as uber, the only thing I can say is that when salamence switches in the first time, you always risk to lose a pokemon just to understand what kind of salamence is (unless, of course, it switches in on something like swampert, then you can imagine is a special based set). I repeat, weakness to stealth rock really limits its sweeping potential, but I can not agree with those people who say salamence is a pokemon like others or, even worse, a weak pokemon. And for those who say that its speed is crap, I don't think that 100 base speed is that bad, and we should not forget that it has dragon dance to boost it.

 

[Pyromanic]

I don't know if salamence meets the offensive characteristic to be tested as uber, the only thing I can say is that when salamence switches in the first time, you always risk to lose a pokemon just to understand what kind of salamence is (unless, of course, it switches in on something like swampert, then you can imagine is a special based set). I repeat, weakness to stealth rock really limits its sweeping potential, but I can not agree with those people who say salamence is a pokemon like others or, even worse, a weak pokemon. And for those who say that its speed is crap, I don't think that 100 base speed is that bad, and we should not forget that it has dragon dance to boost it.

Same with lucario. If you switch in you skarm to a choice-speced vaccume wave it is going to hurt like hell.

 

[Relictivity]

Same with lucario. If you switch in you skarm to a choice-speced vaccume wave it is going to hurt like hell.

But a Draco Metoer and an Outrage coming from Salamence is going to hurt worse. Not to mention that Salamence is much easier to switch in.

 

[haunter]

Same with lucario. If you switch in you skarm to a choice-speced vaccume wave it is going to hurt like hell.

With some little differences:
1) unlike salamence, lucario rarely runs mixed sets
2) lucario doesn't share an impressive 135 base attack
3) dragon attacks have no immunities
4) lucario doesn't get dragon dance and must rely on extremespeed to beat faster foes.

Anyway, I would never switch skarm into lucario, if it's specs'd then you're dead, if it's the swords dancer, then you're dead as well.

 

[Gmax]

When Salamence first switches in, and you have absolutely no information on what kind of Mence it is, you could easily lose a Pokemon just by incorrectly judging its set. The problem with Salamence is that there is no "Salamence". There are offensive DDMence, bulky DDMence, MixMence with Outrage, MixMence without Outrage, Roosting MixMence, CB Mence, SpecsMence all lurking under the banner of "Salamence".

Playing it "safe" isn't really possible given its ability to strike hard from either side of the physical/special spectrum. You cannot really tell what's coming and there's hell to pay if you get it wrong. It OHKOs or 2HKOs the entire metagame, and switches in a lot easier than Lucario, especially if it is running Roost. I don't know if it is really uber, but seriously, it is not a threat you can overlook, and is a huge factor in the OU metagame.

 

[Broth3r]

I don't agree, and I talk from experience. I have rarely used sala, and tbh, he hasnt been a great problem to me, simply because, even tough he follows the same counter guidelines as chomp, the pokes that can be included in them are much more.
However, I would like to see some calcs.

 

[Lightsabre]

I have never had a problem with Salamence. I usually have Suicune or vapporeon on my team anyway and they're very sucessfull at stoping it

 

[haunter]

The question is: when your opponent switches in salamence for the first time, is there a pokemon that you can switch in safely?
Note: I'm not trying to say that salamence should be uber, I just want to point that it's of course a top threat and is not as easy to handle as someone says.

@Lightsabre: what kind of suicune do you use? I just ran some damage calcs, and a bold max hp\ 0 sp.def suicune takes 64.36% - 75.74% from a mild 252 sp. atk life orb'd draco meteor which means a sure 2hko.

 

[Lightsabre]

I havn't used suicune in a while, but I've never been 2KOed and I believe I had calm and a few SPDEF EVs. I also just tested sash weavile and it worked the one time I saw salamence

 

[Il Mitico™]

DDOutrageMence is very powerful, has few counters, and can sweep entire Teams after his stat-up. The power is not everything (SD Luke has more Atk than DDMence but also more counters), Jolly Garchomp is very fast and can take 718 Atk points with a Swords Dance, but 333 Spd points are more surmountable than 448 taken from Salamence after a Dragon Dance. Besides, I think that Intimidate combined with resistance of Salamence is better than Sand Veil, because can use this ability in any case and with certainty, gaining more switch-in.
There is a problem with Salamence: Ice and Rock weaknesses. Intimidate can't repair by the physical Ice moves, also a Weavile with 226 Atk can OHKO it with Ice Punch or 2HKO with Ice Shard, and Weavile generally is Choice Banded or Swords Dancer. On the special plane is necessary a poor 236 SpAtk for OHKO it with a not-STABbed Ice Beam, Garchomp needs 30 points more for OHKO and can use Yache Berry. But also Salamence can use Yache Berry! Yeah... if it wasn't weak to Rock, because with the popular Stealth Rock will always be 236 SpAtk points for OHKO, and with Life Orb will be a suicide. Its Def and SpDef lesser than Garchomp also involve others negative factors, for example a CBScizor with only 24 EVs in HP can enter on his boosted Outrage without Life Orb and resist, then with Bullet Punch will be 59% - 69% of damage, or SD Scizor can enter from revenge kill, resist Outrage and use Swords Dance.

I vote "Do not have a test".

 

[IcyMan28]

Comments in Bold.
Have not voted in the poll, waiting for more discussion to help me decide.

Also, a response to Darkerai

Salamence can utilize his Special Attack more than Garchomp could. That makes it a more versatile attcker.
The extra Special Attack on Salamence helps out with Bronzong.
And Toxic Spikes are important. Garchomp cannot continue sweeping with +2 attack if it is taking 35% damage and growing per turn. In other words, it limited it's sweeping time length. Because a pokemon that is badly poisoned cannot take the time to set up Swords Dance usually.

Chomp switched in, SD'd, and then took out one of your pokemon essentially GUARANTEED. Salamence can boast no such thing. Toxic Spikes are not as much of an issue because they do not immediately hinder sweepers. Paralysis immediately hinders Salamence, leaving it crippled in the speed department and with a +1 boost instead of Chomp's +2.

Yes, Salamence can use its special attack. Doesn't mean it will get past Blissey running an all special set, though. Versatility is nice, but Salamence isn't uncounterable.

Response to Aguamentus.

Not a Special Wall, but a mixed wall. It HAS to be a mixed wall. And Steels in general (with exceptions of their few immunities) don't like Ground or Fire moves. And, though weak, Salamence can use Brick Break along with Outrage and Draco Meteor.

They don't like it but they can generally take at least one hit from it once it DDs. Mixed sweepers are harder to counter, obviously, and while MixMence may be the best, both of its most powerful attacks have some serious drawbacks to them.

Response to Nobody in General

Salamence is at it's weakest point when it ends it's outrage. So if you plan to let it kill 2+ of your pokemon wating for that oppurtunity, I wonder why you would even consider that?

I correced that for you. Either predict the Outrage and bring in a steel, send in a bulky water / ground as it DDs, or bring in a steel after it has already Outraged once. Being unable to switch is a serious liability in this fast-paced metagame.

Just a note for everyone: It is being suggested that Salamence be performed after the uber suspects, so we have plenty of time.

Really, though, why is it that whenever a pokemon becomes top-tier, people immediately become suspicious of it? Something has to be number 1 (and that isn't Salamence, mind you), so if we go by the logic of "pokemon x is top tier, so it must be a suspect," every time a pokemon gets stronger, we will never be done testing pokemon.

Yache Berry is not nearly as effective on Mence as Chomp. 108 / 95 / 85 > 95 / 80 / 80. Also, Mence often STARTS at 75% thanks to SR, so that limits Yache's effectiveness as well.

I don't know if salamence meets the offensive characteristic to be tested as uber, the only thing I can say is that when salamence switches in the first time, you always risk to lose a pokemon just to understand what kind of salamence is (unless, of course, it switches in on something like swampert, then you can imagine is a special based set). I repeat, weakness to stealth rock really limits its sweeping potential, but I can not agree with those people who say salamence is a pokemon like others or, even worse, a weak pokemon. And for those who say that its speed is crap, I don't think that 100 base speed is that bad, and we should not forget that it has dragon dance to boost it.

The same could be said of Infernape. Or Lucario. Just because a pokemon can use options other than its most prominent set doesn't mean that it is suddenly Uber. And while you are right in saying that Mence is not weak, base 100 speed is undistinguished due to the large number of pokemon in that group.

With some little differences:
1) unlike salamence, lucario rarely runs mixed sets

Doesn't mean that it couldn't effectively do so, though.

2) lucario doesn't share an impressive 135 base attack

This is obvious. However, Lucario's CC doesn't come with a serious side effect such as locking in, and what Mence has with DD Luke gets with SD + Priority.

3) dragon attacks have no immunities

Point for Salamence then. Luke can run a Dark or Ghost move to complement fighting and get perfect coverage.

4) lucario doesn't get dragon dance and must rely on extremespeed to beat faster foes.

Lucario doesn't have to worry about priority negating its boosted speed thanks to BP and Ice Shard resists. And typically, the faster foes tend to be more frail.

Anyway, I would never switch skarm into lucario, if it's specs'd then you're dead, if it's the swords dancer, then you're dead as well.

Playing it "safe" isn't really possible given its ability to strike hard from either side of the physical/special spectrum. You cannot really tell what's coming and there's hell to pay if you get it wrong. It OHKOs or 2HKOs the entire metagame, and switches in a lot easier than Lucario, especially if it is running Roost. I don't know if it is really uber, but seriously, it is not a threat you can overlook, and is a huge factor in the OU metagame.

The same could be said of any versatile sweeper, as far as the 1HKOs and 2HKOs. As far as switching in is concerned, they each have their advantages (typing vs. stats + intimidate), but Salamence has SR to deal with, and a set with Roost generally isn't going to be as difficult to deal with as a straight up offense.

-As its been pointed out, Mence's lower defenses and worse typing means that it is much easier to bring down. 236 Sp.Atk Ice Beam is the starting point for all bulky waters with base 100 sp.atk, and those that are lower typcally require very few EVs. Furthermore, the number has become almost moot thanks to SR ripping off 25% (which is further complicated by SR). Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Extremespeed all ruin it thanks to its lower defense, and it is stopped cold by Thunder Wave at that.

-Offensively speaking, Salamence is quite versatile, yes, but every set has completely viable checks to it. Its good, yes, but apparently people still prefer Scizor (albeit by a small amount).

 

[Misa]

-Offensively speaking, Salamence is quite versatile, yes, but every set has completely viable checks to it. Its good, yes, but apparently people still prefer Scizor (albeit by a small amount).

But the thing is, it's quite hard to predict what set Salamence is going to use, and if you make the wrong switch you could risk your physical or special wall being taken out (I had to learn that the hard way). Even garchomp had every viable sets to it; for example, the choice banded and scarfed ones were completely walled by skarmory, while the more defensive ones would be killed off by something like salamence's outrage while trying to set up.

just something to keep in mind.

Yache Berry is not nearly as effective on Mence as Chomp. 108 / 95 / 85 > 95 / 80 / 80. Also, Mence often STARTS at 75% thanks to SR, so that limits Yache's effectiveness as well.

This is why most mence carry life orb instead of yache berry, because it just wouldn't have the sweeping potential without it. Also, I'm sure than a CBmamo's ice shard most likely 2HKOs salamence, whether defensive or not (garchomp can be 3HKO'd if it has enough defensive EVs).

 

[haunter]

The same could be said of Infernape. Or Lucario. Just because a pokemon can use options other than its most prominent set doesn't mean that it is suddenly Uber. And while you are right in saying that Mence is not weak, base 100 speed is undistinguished due to the large number of pokemon in that group.

I've never said it's uber, read my "note" in my last message.

Quote:
With some little differences:
1) unlike salamence, lucario rarely runs mixed sets

Doesn't mean that it couldn't effectively do so, though.

Mixed lucario isn't as threatning as mixmence, STAB draco meteor and outrage comning from 135\110 offensive stats are what make salamence unique.

2) lucario doesn't share an impressive 135 base attack

This is obvious. However, Lucario's CC doesn't come with a serious side effect such as locking in, and what Mence has with DD Luke gets with SD + Priority.

You misunderstood my point here, I just wanted to say that salamence can be phisically threatening even without atk evs, or with a little atk evs if he uses a neutral nature.

3) dragon attacks have no immunities

Point for Salamence then. Luke can run a Dark or Ghost move to complement fighting and get perfect coverage.

The fire\dragon combination that mixmence has is only resisted by heatran which is ohko'd by earthquake. And anyway, dragon is the best attacking type in the game, with only one resistance and no immunities.

4) lucario doesn't get dragon dance and must rely on extremespeed to beat faster foes.

Lucario doesn't have to worry about priority negating its boosted speed thanks to BP and Ice Shard resists. And typically, the faster foes tend to be more frail.

Lucario has paper defenses and after a defense drop from CC, a CB bullet punch from scizor can do up to 68% (45% without the drop).

 

[IcyMan28]

But the thing is, it's quite hard to predict what set Salamence is going to use, and if you make the wrong switch you could risk your physical or special wall being taken out (I had to learn that the hard way). Even garchomp had every viable sets to it; for example, the choice banded and scarfed ones were completely walled by skarmory, while the more defensive ones would be killed off by something like salamence's outrage while trying to set up.

just something to keep in mind.

So you are saying that every pokemon must be able to be perfectly predicted to be certain that it doesn't meet the offensive requirement? Infernape has a crazy amount of options as well; and should a Mixape counter come into a physical Nape, its over. Jirachi has many sets - some support, some physically offensive, some specially offensive, etc. And then Gengar could always unpredictably Focus Punch your Blissey for the KO. Of course one of your main walls will be taken out if you make a wrong switch.

Skarmory is 2HKOd by Chomp's Fire Blast, IIRC.

This is why most mence carry life orb instead of yache berry, because it just wouldn't have the sweeping potential without it. Also, I'm sure than a CBmamo's ice shard most likely 2HKOs salamence, whether defensive or not (garchomp can be 3HKO'd if it has enough defensive EVs).

Interesting that you should point out that Mence doesn't have the sweeping potential without LO. CBMamo's Ice Shard 2HKOing Salamence? Adamant 252 Atk CB Mamoswine using Ice Shard on 331 HP / 196 Mence with Yache Berry: 591 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (40 Base Power): 260 - 308 (78.55% - 93.05%) This is a severe amount of damage. Mamo manages to OHKO as long as SR is present (which is nearly always).

I've never said it's uber, read my "note" in my last message.

There is no need to point out what is obvious (that its a top-tier pokemon). If you don't believe it to be Uber, then I don't think a suspect test is necessary.

Mixed lucario isn't as threatning as mixmence, STAB draco meteor and outrage comning from 135\110 offensive stats are what make salamence unique.

They make it unique, but with serious drawbacks. After a DM, Mence is done with SpA thanks to the -2 status. Outrage lacks the power of DDMence due to lesser EVs and lack of a boost, but it still has that nasty side effect of locking it in. As the analysis notes, Cresselia is 3HKOd by DM + Outrage + Outrage; Cress can KO with Ice Beam in the meantime.

You misunderstood my point here, I just wanted to say that salamence can be phisically threatening even without atk evs, or with a little atk evs if he uses a neutral nature.

The same can be said of Metagross. Or Tyranitar. Scizor. Dragonite. All of those pokemon has something that sets them equally as viable as Salamence. Metagross has that impressive bulk further bolstered by the typing. Tyranitar is a beast, boasting CB Pursuit, Boah sets, and auto sand. Scizor has great typing, an awesome ability in Technician, priority, and physical bulk that is helped along by Roost. Dragonite, the most comparable, offers slightly lower Sp.Atk with more bulk, and a wider movepool. Salamence is top-tier OU, but it definately has some competition.

The fire\dragon combination that mixmence has is only resisted by heatran which is ohko'd by earthquake. And anyway, dragon is the best attacking type in the game, with only one resistance and no immunities.

So that's 3 moves compared to Lucario's 2. Dragon is generally the best, but one must take the current metagame into account as well. And when the metagame is packed with steels, it presents a bit of an issue.

Lucario has paper defenses and after a defense drop from CC, a CB bullet punch from scizor can do up to 68% (45% without the drop).

So it can switch in to SR, use SD, CC the switchin, and still survive the Bullet Punch, destroying Scizor with CC after the hit. Also, Lucario has plenty of resistances to come in on, including Rock, Ice, Steel, Normal, Grass, Ghost, Dark, Bug, and Dragon. This helps to offset the paper defenses, while Mence takes hefty damage from even resisted attacks thanks to SR.

-I still haven't seen anything that separates Salamence from the rest of the bunch. The only things that have been said are that Salamence is strong, can boost that strength, and has great neutral coverage. This separates it...how?

 

[haunter]

Quote:
I've never said it's uber, read my "note" in my last message.
There is no need to point out what is obvious (that its a top-tier pokemon). If you don't believe it to be Uber, then I don't think a suspect test is necessary.

It's necessary (to point out) when people say that they have no problems with salamence, like they were talking about surskit (no offense)...

Quote:
Mixed lucario isn't as threatning as mixmence, STAB draco meteor and outrage comning from 135\110 offensive stats are what make salamence unique.
They make it unique, but with serious drawbacks. After a DM, Mence is done with SpA thanks to the -2 status. Outrage lacks the power of DDMence due to lesser EVs and lack of a boost, but it still has that nasty side effect of locking it in. As the analysis notes, Cresselia is 3HKOd by DM + Outrage + Outrage; Cress can KO with Ice Beam in the meantime.

Then everyone should use cresselia only to counter mixmence???

Quote:
You misunderstood my point here, I just wanted to say that salamence can be phisically threatening even without atk evs, or with a little atk evs if he uses a neutral nature.
The same can be said of Metagross. Or Tyranitar. Scizor. Dragonite. All of those pokemon has something that sets them equally as viable as Salamence. Metagross has that impressive bulk further bolstered by the typing. Tyranitar is a beast, boasting CB Pursuit, Boah sets, and auto sand. Scizor has great typing, an awesome ability in Technician, priority, and physical bulk that is helped along by Roost. Dragonite, the most comparable, offers slightly lower Sp.Atk with more bulk, and a wider movepool. Salamence is top-tier OU, but it definately has some competition.

Metagross and tyranitar have ridiculous speed and lower sp. atk, they're not comparable. Dragonite is a fantastic poke in my opinion, but salamence is generally better due to intimidate, more speed and sp. atk.
edit: about scizor I completely agree, read my first post in this thread.

Quote:
The fire\dragon combination that mixmence has is only resisted by heatran which is ohko'd by earthquake. And anyway, dragon is the best attacking type in the game, with only one resistance and no immunities.
So that's 3 moves compared to Lucario's 2. Dragon is generally the best, but one must take the current metagame into account as well. And when the metagame is packed with steels, it presents a bit of an issue.

The current metagame is centralized around steels mainly to counter dragons, this only shows that people fears things like salamence (and now latias)

Quote:
Lucario has paper defenses and after a defense drop from CC, a CB bullet punch from scizor can do up to 68% (45% without the drop).
So it can switch in to SR, use SD, CC the switchin, and still survive the Bullet Punch, destroying Scizor with CC after the hit. Also, Lucario has plenty of resistances to come in on, including Rock, Ice, Steel, Normal, Grass, Ghost, Dark, Bug, and Dragon. This helps to offset the paper defenses, while Mence takes hefty damage from even resisted attacks thanks to SR.

I'm not debating about lucario usefulness, also note that SD luke almost always carries life orb, so this means that he's losing 10% of his health every turn he attacks.

 

[Misa]

The same can be said of Metagross. Or Tyranitar. Scizor. Dragonite. All of those pokemon has something that sets them equally as viable as Salamence. Metagross has that impressive bulk further bolstered by the typing. Tyranitar is a beast, boasting CB Pursuit, Boah sets, and auto sand. Scizor has great typing, an awesome ability in Technician, priority, and physical bulk that is helped along by Roost. Dragonite, the most comparable, offers slightly lower Sp.Atk with more bulk, and a wider movepool. Salamence is top-tier OU, but it definately has some competition.

The only thing that I was about to think of as suspect was T-tar, since he is able to deal a ton of damage to the pokemon in the uber tier, but his 5 weaknesses along with a 4x weakness hampers it.

I could definitely say that salamence is a beast that is superior to metagross or the other dragons in sweeping (barring garchomp), but his weaker defenses compared to the others hamper it. (for example, dragonite has a better chance of surviving a CB mamo shard with SR damage)

Despite all that, I think that we should have a chance at removing salamence to see how it turns out, just for good measures (and we would see a lot more dragonite usage instead of salamence)

also, Lucario is a lot more easier to counter than salamence due to weaker defenses, speed, and a less varied movepool. Even though he has ice shard resist, the fact that he can't outspeed fast sweepers like gengar and azelf really hinders his ability to sweep.

 

[Shelcario]

I think this is going to turn into one of those polls similar to Garchomp but, this time it's with Salamence going onto Uber or not. I'm going to say no because as already been said that Salamence can be kept in check by other pokemon in the OU tier. If Salamence were to move onto the Uber tier what could it possibly do now that Garchomp doesn't already do but better besides Dragon Dancing?

 

[Flashstorm1]

While Salamence does seem to be extremely threatening on paper, Salamence is not nearly as overcentralizing to the metagame as Garchomp was. Obviously, the biggest hindrance for Salamence is Stealth Rock, preventing it from switching in repeatedly. The main problem with Salamence is that it, more often than not, usually takes down one Pokémon before it faints; however, the same could be said about any Pokémon. Salamence is also one of the easiest Pokémon to revenge kill, as CBScizor's Bullet Punch can OHKO after Stealth Rock, whereas Garchomp couldn't; Heatran, which is currently a very popular Pokémon, can also come in on almost all of Salamence's attacks, barring Earthquake, and pose an immediate threat with HP Ice or Dragon Pulse. Obviously, Salamence does not overcentralize the game in terms of defense and support, and Salamence cannot sweep through complete teams with the prevelance of effective revenge killers and the high number of Steel-types being used.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Also, note, if your Salamence takes down two to three pokemon, does it really matter if it can be revenge killed? The opponent has two to three less pokemon to stop your secondary sweeper.

Also, if you can put enough EVs to hurt Skarmory with Draco Meteor and Bronzong with Outrage (I think it already 2HKOs), then you can use Earthquake to solve your Heatran problem.

I'm pretty sure this part of your argument was directed at me, so allow me to respond...

There is absolutely no reason 2-3 Pokémon should faint just to bring in your check to Salamence. Are you suggesting that someone, under normal circumstances, would make unnecessary sacrifices to bring in a Pokémon that should have been brought out earlier? Don't forget that Stealth Rock depletes Salamence's HP into a KO range for Dragon Pulse or Bullet Punch.

And, of course, when I mentioned Heatran as a revenge killer, I implied ScarfTran for obvious reasons. Salamence, barring Choice Specs variants, beats Heatran without Choice Scarf 99.9% of the time, unless for some reason it either does not carry Earthquake or Brick Break. I also took out Wish(Bulky)Mence from this equation because that particular Salamence is not meant to sweep.

 

[Misa]

My responses are in bold

Your post does not make sense, if Cressalia cannot overcome a Salmence that is NOT TOO MUCH out of the ordinary, it isn't a counter.

A 252 hp / 0 sp.def cresselia receives about 51% to 60% worth of damage by switching in to a mixmence's draco meteor. Combining that with stealth rock, Salamence can just outrage to take out cress if he wants to, or just switch, since cress is risking death if she doesn't switch as well.

(341 Atk vs 296 Def & 444 HP (140 Base Power): 226 - 267 (50.90% - 60.14%)

Now, regarding to DD mence,

(607 Atk vs 372 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 273 - 322 (61.49% - 72.52%)

This shows that a life orbed, dragon danced salamence can do up to 73% at maximum with outrage. If cresselia has less than 70% of health left while switching into a DD mence's life orbed outrage, it has a chance to get obliterated. (let's not forget the stealth rocks either, which will increase the chances of cresselia's death higher)

Sure, it has to run Sp. Def, but so did Chompy. Just because nobody uses it now does not mean you should not consider it.
You can add some sp.def evs to try and survive an ice before from cress, but the life orb recoil will kill you anyways.

Show me the Calcs for Hippowdon to prove it.
Hippowdon does get 2HKO'd by a life orbed draco meteor from salamence (heck it even has a chance to get OHKO'd with stealth rock), thus your response is correct.

341 Atk vs 180 Def & 420 HP (140 Base Power): 370 - 436 (88.10% - 103.81%, without steath rock) (I'm using the new mixmence with life orb as an example)

Now with steath rock attached, it has a 58.97% for Hippowdon to get OHKO'd by switching into a life orbed, stabbed draco meteor from a mixmence. That is some massive damage.

Also, note, if your Salamence takes down two to three pokemon, does it really matter if it can be revenge killed? The opponent has two to three less pokemon to stop your secondary sweeper.
That's true, if it manages to kill off three pokemon in the first place.This is unlikely to happen due to increasing numbers of CB mamo and his ice shards.

Based on my response, the best time to switch into salamence is when salamence is dragon dancing with a bulky tank, or just send it mamo and ice shard it to death. I recommend the latter.

In short, there's not a lot of things that can take out salamence before it blows a gaping hole in your team.

edit:

And, of course, when I mentioned Heatran as a revenge killer, I implied ScarfTran for obvious reasons. Salamence, barring Choice Specs variants, beats Heatran without Choice Scarf 99.9% of the time, unless for some reason it either does not carry Earthquake or Brick Break. I also took out Wish(Bulky)Mence from this equation because that particular Salamence is not meant to sweep.

like I said, heatran can come in on things like specs mence and CB mence, but it can't come on top if salamence has a DD on stack; meaning that scarftran can't revenge kill something like a DD mence. It however does well against other sets, as long as you avoid earthquake.