Ermm, Sawsbuck here gets Normal STAB, Jump Kick for Nattorei AND Heatran, and a lot more speed. That really puts it in a league of its own because it's not getting revenge killed by stuff like Lati@s. Tangrowth only reaches 398 Speed in the sun with a neutral nature. You can go +Speed but then you lose out on power. Besides, what do you run on Tangrowth that gets perfect coverage? Growth/Power Whip/HP Fire/Earthquake? Basically any dragon and balloon Heatran say hello. I think comparing the two is pointless anyway. The better mixed sweeper is obviously Tangrowth but I think for a purely physical set Sawsbuck is the way to go.
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Sawsbuck
- Thread starter tophway
- Start date
Ermm, Sawsbuck here gets Normal STAB, Jump Kick for Nattorei AND Heatran, and a lot more speed. That really puts it in a league of its own because it's not getting revenge killed by stuff like Lati@s. Tangrowth only reaches 398 Speed in the sun with a neutral nature. You can go +Speed but then you lose out on power. Besides, what do you run on Tangrowth that gets perfect coverage? Growth/Power Whip/HP Fire/Earthquake? Basically any dragon and balloon Heatran say hello. I think comparing the two is pointless anyway. The better mixed sweeper is obviously Tangrowth but I think for a purely physical set Sawsbuck is the way to go.
That Normal STAB also grants Sawsbuck a weakness to the most common priority in the game that no amount of Speed is going to get away from. That + its frailty means that a sweep is stopped dead by anything with STAB Mach Punch. Tangrowth has amazing physical bulk, a higher Atk stat from the get go, and, yes, the ability to go mixed. It also gets Brick Break to deal with Ferrothorn and Heatran, or Focus Blast if you want to go special. Plus with a +Spe nature (which every Tangrowth should run anyway, since the power drop is not that significant anyway) Tangrowth reaches 436 Spe, which is plenty to outspeed common threats.
That move combo you listed, as you mention, gets terrible coverage so usually I ran something like Growth/ Power Whip/ Brick Break/ Rock Slide, which is resisted only by Toxicroak.
I only compared them because the role that I found Sawsbuck taking on my team was a warm up / inferior sweeper to Tangrowth.
There are advantages and disadvantages to everything, but in general there are a lot of threats that simply can't handle a +2 Life Orb Double Edge but they could take anything Tangrowth has to offer. The set you listed is weaker in every option when compared to Sawsbuck. Your set has 299 Attack and 436 Speed in the sun, while the deer can achieve 328 Speed and 578 Speed. And basically every Scarf Pokemon outspeeds 436 Speed (only requires 291 speed). Power Whip is stronger than Wood Horn, but Sawsbuck can run Double Edge for secondary STAB which is just as powerful. A neutral Double Edge has 180 base power while a super effective Rock Slide has 150. The benefits of Wood Horn are obvious; it heals you a good chunk and still gets the necessary OHKOs after a boost. Jump Kick is much more powerful than Brick Break.
Basically, Sawsbuck is more powerful and faster, while Tangrowth has more bulk and is less susceptible to priority. Who do you want to lose to? Scarf Pokemon or priority? At least Sawsbuck has the option of running Chople Berry... They should be used on the same team to take out counters, but to say Tangrowth is superior is circular on the basis that Sawsbuck is softening up the opponent's team in your case, which Tangrowth could do as well.
Basically, Sawsbuck is more powerful and faster, while Tangrowth has more bulk and is less susceptible to priority. Who do you want to lose to? Scarf Pokemon or priority? At least Sawsbuck has the option of running Chople Berry... They should be used on the same team to take out counters, but to say Tangrowth is superior is circular on the basis that Sawsbuck is softening up the opponent's team in your case, which Tangrowth could do as well.
I believe you meant 328 Attack and 578 Speed. And lets stop comparing Mebu and Tangrowth, they accomplish different roles. Mebu isn't really a pure sweeper but more of a tech pokemon to take out Sun counters while Tangrowth fills the same niche as Venusaur. They're both great Sun pokes but are completely different in their roles.
Mebu's Fighting weakness is mediated somewhat by the fact that even Defensive Roobushin takes a large chunk from D-E if it tries to switch in. The above posters were right, Mebu arguably does a 4 attacks set better due to its speed and the ease with which it counters things (and being forced out by priority) whilst Tangrowth is a slowish bulky sweeper with worse coverage but better mixed abilities.
Venusaur is pretty much the general chloropyll sweeper - ok bulk, offences and speed. The others are pretty much deviations on his theme depending on what is best for your team.
Venusaur is pretty much the general chloropyll sweeper - ok bulk, offences and speed. The others are pretty much deviations on his theme depending on what is best for your team.
A Mach Punch without any modifiers from max attack Roobushin won't even KO Mebukijika, meaning you could possibly Wood Horn (say it switches in as you Swords Dance; it doesn't kill you with Mach Punch and you hit it with a +2 Wood Horn) it and get a lot of health back and just switch in later to renew your rampage. Scizor is also a problem but 2 Nature Powers or Jump Kicks will kill the standard CBer after 1 Stealth Rock switch-in.
Mach Punch from a common Bulk Up Roobushin with no Bulk Ups under it's belt does 67.8% - 80.4% to Mebukijika. A clear 2HKO if you're crazy enough to stay in and fight. +2 LO Wood Horn does 72.7% - 85.8% (277 - 327) to said Bushin which give back about 138 - 163 HP to you. Double-Edge would flat out OHKO it (116% - 137%), though you'll be kamikazing yourself toward it.
328 Atk vs 227 Def & 414 HP (225 Base Power): 303 - 357 (73.19% - 86.23%)
There's the wood horn scenario with Life Orb, which is pretty impressive considering your health will be at around 30 percent at worst after the scuffle.
Silly me, forgot to add in Life Orb into the mix. Was using the 120 HP / 0 Def variation as a reference since it's probably more common/beneficial.
I just realized that Drain Punch from the bastard would OHKO the elk and probably heal him of all damage so it wouldn't need to Mach Punch all that much :C
that's just delving into a war of prediction though--will the seasonal ungulate KO with Double Edge before the Drain Punch, or will the Roobushin risk it and go for the Drain Punch?
656 Atk vs 227 Def & 414 HP (153 Base Power): 411 - 484 (99.28% - 116.91%)
Return is actually a better option in this situation, KOing it handily without the devastating recoil. In fact, it turns Bulk Up Roobushin into a non-counter lol
That's pretty interesting actually - people have said return doesn't do much less than D-E without the recoil, but this is a pretty crucial stat to prove so, which is nice. It also basically means that any non Rock or Steel mon with priority cannot OHKO him with it without a CB before being OHKOd back (given Return's power), which is excellent seeing as priority was thought to be a major issue for him.
I doubt I'm the first to think about this, but I didn't see this idea posted anywhere else.
From the research thread (and watching wifi battles on Youtube), I learned that in Gen 5, the move Camouflage will always turn you into a Ground-type on wifi. In addition, the move Nature Power always becomes Earthquake on wifi.
This could be a terrific combo on Sawsbuck. The usefulness of Nature Power is pretty obvious on this guy, and w/ Camouflage, you essentially now have a STAB EQ, and take your opponent by complete surprise by switching types. Plus, the thought of having a Ground-type with a Grass immunity (I assume Sap Sipper will still protect you) sounds pretty sweet to me!
Of course, Wild Charge/Horn Leech takes care of the water weakness, and Low Kick demolishes Ice. Horn Leech's power does take a dip, but could still be useful to keep around if you can't set up the Camouflage.
What do you guys think?
From the research thread (and watching wifi battles on Youtube), I learned that in Gen 5, the move Camouflage will always turn you into a Ground-type on wifi. In addition, the move Nature Power always becomes Earthquake on wifi.
This could be a terrific combo on Sawsbuck. The usefulness of Nature Power is pretty obvious on this guy, and w/ Camouflage, you essentially now have a STAB EQ, and take your opponent by complete surprise by switching types. Plus, the thought of having a Ground-type with a Grass immunity (I assume Sap Sipper will still protect you) sounds pretty sweet to me!
Of course, Wild Charge/Horn Leech takes care of the water weakness, and Low Kick demolishes Ice. Horn Leech's power does take a dip, but could still be useful to keep around if you can't set up the Camouflage.
What do you guys think?
I might actually try that out. I'm sure there are plenty of others that will bring up one reason or another why that's not worth using, but it sounds like a ton of fun.
So you camouflage and gain an STAB Earthquake, with Megahorn for Grass and Wild Charge for Flying coverage... It's interesting but it lacks the power of the standard SD or CB sets :(
If you were Ground type, you wouldn't need Wild Charge would you?
- Camouflage
- Nature Power
- Horn Leech
- Megahorn / Jump Kick
Seems like the ideal set.
Sawsbuck is sort of let down by six weaknesses, and with Mach Punch and Ice Shard being common priority, that's worse. So cutting weakness down to three, and having great coverage against Water and Grass types makes it a much better pokemon, and a Sun Sweeper set apart from other Chlorophyll users - priority Thunder Wave won't be ruining its fun either.
No need for the Grass coverage since Sawsbuck is immune to Grass.
Oh wow, that makes it even better. So instead of Megahorn it can go for Jump Kick or something like Swords Dance and really start to hit hard.
Camouflage be actually be the ideal set for Sawsbuck.
I'm a bit wary of that. Much like with Mirror type Latias, losing the power of your STAB attacks can really hurt you. Currently, sun sweeper Swasbuck uses either Return or Megahorn to get the kill on Latios and to finish off Latias with Rocks up. When you lose the added power of those attacks, you kind of become less effective. Horn Leech will now be doing less damage and all you've got now is ground STAB, which is weaker than both return and double edge AND gets shut down by taunt and substitute. Not to mention that unless you're running Sap Sipper, nature power becomes an open door for the majority of grass types in the game.
I like the idea, but I can't really see the appeal.
I like the idea, but I can't really see the appeal.
Only if Sawsbuck carries Herbivore, of course, but that really stops it being the best it can be, as a Sun Sweeper.
You need Wild Charge to hit flying types or else Earthquake, Horn Leech and Megahorn gets walled big time. Plus Horn Leech without STAB or SD is not doing much. It's a good idea defensively but only if you can fit SD onto the same set, and currently that is hard to do and even harder to pull off.
If there is one key reason to use Sawsbuck, it's to get rid of opposing weather starters.
Politoed can be easily OHKOd, as can Ttar
With Stab Grass, huge speed, and a physical fighting move, he is the perfect weather starter destroyer
Otherwise, with great coverage he is a fantastic clean-upper once priority users are gone
Politoed can be easily OHKOd, as can Ttar
With Stab Grass, huge speed, and a physical fighting move, he is the perfect weather starter destroyer
Otherwise, with great coverage he is a fantastic clean-upper once priority users are gone
