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Serperior
- Thread starter blasphemy1
- Start date
Dunno why so many people are saying max HP on the subseed set. More HP = less health restored (percentage wise) from seed and a higher cost for subs. He'd be much better off capitalizing on his defenses instead.
Also I think it's worth noting that this is the first seeder capable of Mean Looking opponents. You've pretty much got a guaranteed kill on a wall or something that can't do much back. I'm thinking maybe Mean Look/Leech Seed/Toxic or Taunt/filler. Toxic is mainly to stop walls which have self recovery from stalling, though Taunt would probably work better against sleep talkers. Last slot can be anything really. Sub would synergize well, but then you've got no attacks and risk getting Taunted yourself. In theory this should work, even if it is gimmicky as hell.
[Edit] Dragon Tail would work well in that last slot, now that I think about it. An untauntable phazing move not only scouts your opponent's team, it also lets you seek out a Mean Look target to drain dry.
Also I think it's worth noting that this is the first seeder capable of Mean Looking opponents. You've pretty much got a guaranteed kill on a wall or something that can't do much back. I'm thinking maybe Mean Look/Leech Seed/Toxic or Taunt/filler. Toxic is mainly to stop walls which have self recovery from stalling, though Taunt would probably work better against sleep talkers. Last slot can be anything really. Sub would synergize well, but then you've got no attacks and risk getting Taunted yourself. In theory this should work, even if it is gimmicky as hell.
[Edit] Dragon Tail would work well in that last slot, now that I think about it. An untauntable phazing move not only scouts your opponent's team, it also lets you seek out a Mean Look target to drain dry.
I'm interpreting it as this: Sp. Atk drops increase its Special Attack stat rather than decreasing it (same for other stats). So -2 Sp. Atk will double its damage output rather than halving it.
Simple doesn't, for example, make Curse give +2 Attack and +2 Defense; it just makes +1 Attack and +1 Defense. I expect Contrarian to work in a similar manner.
base power is too low, and on the 50% chance that the secondary effect doesn't work, you just wasted a turn that could have been used using Coil which will increase your Attack, Defense, and Accuracy at the same time, before dishing out Leaf Blade next turn after withstanding a physical attack.
Oh, how about a double screen Jaroda set for a hyper offense teams? That might be decently cool. With SR and/or regular Spike support already you can go for the screens + Dragon Tail and Glare hax lol. Or Leaf Storm and HP....Ground (Toxic spike support viable now) or something.
(Assuming that you benefit from Leaf Storm with that uh.. Contra ability? Lol fail.)
(Assuming that you benefit from Leaf Storm with that uh.. Contra ability? Lol fail.)
Coil is a neat new move, somewhat like a Curse, but the fact that your accuracy increases.
I can see a viable moveset, abusing Contrarian.Sue me if its dumb:
Timid Contrarian Jaroda@ Leftovers
252 Spd 252 HP 4 Sp Atk
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Substitute
Glare
A variation of the usual SubSeed moveset, with Glare. Pray that it hits, take a hit, and from there, standard SubSeed-stalling. Only thing is, Jaroda has got a new toy to play with. Fire off +2 Leaf Storms when you are safely behind a Sub.
I can see a viable moveset, abusing Contrarian.Sue me if its dumb:
Timid Contrarian Jaroda@ Leftovers
252 Spd 252 HP 4 Sp Atk
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Substitute
Glare
A variation of the usual SubSeed moveset, with Glare. Pray that it hits, take a hit, and from there, standard SubSeed-stalling. Only thing is, Jaroda has got a new toy to play with. Fire off +2 Leaf Storms when you are safely behind a Sub.
BUT THEN SUDDENLY FROM THE DEPTHS ROSE A FOE SO POWERFUL, NOT EVEN THE MIGHTY JARODA COULD WITHSTAND ITS TERRIBLE WRATH. THE COMBINED MIGHT OF EVERY GRASS TYPE IN THE GAME WAS TOO MUCH, CAUSING THE FAUNA SNAKE TO COLLAPSE, QUIVERING IN ITS OWN FEEBLENESS.
Also,
>252 HP on a subseeder
Please stop doing this. :T
YES. I loved him when he was revealed (officially), but the lack of powders really hurts him in my eyes. The Torment set on the OP looks cool, but with all the weaknesses he has the opponent might still be able to hit him super effectively.
EDIT: crap, didn't see the other pages, let me read them
EDITEDIT: Yeah, as much as I like Torment, I'm starting to think Glare is a better option, since I guess we're letting the dragons back in OU for the early days.
EDIT: crap, didn't see the other pages, let me read them
EDITEDIT: Yeah, as much as I like Torment, I'm starting to think Glare is a better option, since I guess we're letting the dragons back in OU for the early days.
The HP EVs make his Substitutes more durable, which may actually let him recover more from Leftovers than Leech Seed (for example, the spread in the OP can survive Venusaur's Power Whip but 0 HP / 252 Def has no chance). It's not like it matters until we start testing and adjusting the spread to whatever tier he ends up in.
Superpower would indeed be a good move on him, giving him +2 attack and extra coverage alongside Leaf Blade and Leaf Storm (HP Ice would work in the last slot). Unfortunately, we have no info on tutors, iirc.
I think the combo Subseeder/Sweeper is the best idea so far.
Jaroda @ Leftovers
252 SpAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
ability: Contrarian
Leaf Storm
Hidden Power Fire / Ice
Substitute
Leech Seed
Full Special Attack yields a stat of 249, which is enough to do damage at +2 with a 140 BP STAB move. No HP is good for the Subseeder, and you aren't wasting any coverage on Sub and Seed because Grass + HP is all you get : ). Hidden Power is for other Grass-types, and take your pick whether to hit Steels/Bugs or Dragons/Flyers. This actually has some potential, because if your opponent needs to switch out a pokemon that you have Seeded, he's risking you getting a +2 boost (while doing damage) while he does so. He can also take a hit, so you can potentially Seed the switch, then Sub if it can OHKO you and Leaf Storm if it can't.
It will still have some problems, due to it's many weaknesses, mediocre stats, and lack of coverage, but I can see it being very successful if played carefully.
Editing: Calcs:
Leaf Storm vs. 0/0 Ononokusu: 36.2% - 43% (2HKO with boost)
Leaf Storm vs. ScarfTar: 93.6% - 110.5%
Leaf Storm vs. 0/0 Shanderaa: 33.3% - 39.1% (2HKO with boost)
+6 Leaf Storm vs. Blissey: 68.5% - 80.7% (can beat Blissey without PP stalling)
+2 HP Fire vs. 252 HP Celebi: 53% - 62.4% (2HKO)
+2 HP Fire vs. 4 HP Roserade: 77.9% - 92.4% (Good chance to 2HKO with Leaf Storm damage and / or entry hazards)
+2 HP Fire vs. Agiligross: 70.5% - 83.3% (Good chance to 2HKO with Leaf Storm + HP Fire)
Overall it doesn't do too poorly for something that can simultaneously be an effective Subseeder and can attack and boost in the same turn. Also, successfully nabbing any of these 2HKOes means you leave the encounter with +4 (or at least +2) SpAtk.
Jaroda @ Leftovers
252 SpAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
ability: Contrarian
Leaf Storm
Hidden Power Fire / Ice
Substitute
Leech Seed
Full Special Attack yields a stat of 249, which is enough to do damage at +2 with a 140 BP STAB move. No HP is good for the Subseeder, and you aren't wasting any coverage on Sub and Seed because Grass + HP is all you get : ). Hidden Power is for other Grass-types, and take your pick whether to hit Steels/Bugs or Dragons/Flyers. This actually has some potential, because if your opponent needs to switch out a pokemon that you have Seeded, he's risking you getting a +2 boost (while doing damage) while he does so. He can also take a hit, so you can potentially Seed the switch, then Sub if it can OHKO you and Leaf Storm if it can't.
It will still have some problems, due to it's many weaknesses, mediocre stats, and lack of coverage, but I can see it being very successful if played carefully.
Editing: Calcs:
Leaf Storm vs. 0/0 Ononokusu: 36.2% - 43% (2HKO with boost)
Leaf Storm vs. ScarfTar: 93.6% - 110.5%
Leaf Storm vs. 0/0 Shanderaa: 33.3% - 39.1% (2HKO with boost)
+6 Leaf Storm vs. Blissey: 68.5% - 80.7% (can beat Blissey without PP stalling)
+2 HP Fire vs. 252 HP Celebi: 53% - 62.4% (2HKO)
+2 HP Fire vs. 4 HP Roserade: 77.9% - 92.4% (Good chance to 2HKO with Leaf Storm damage and / or entry hazards)
+2 HP Fire vs. Agiligross: 70.5% - 83.3% (Good chance to 2HKO with Leaf Storm + HP Fire)
Overall it doesn't do too poorly for something that can simultaneously be an effective Subseeder and can attack and boost in the same turn. Also, successfully nabbing any of these 2HKOes means you leave the encounter with +4 (or at least +2) SpAtk.
I updated the OP with the offensive subseeder and the alternate spread for the normal subseeder. It does seem like (one of) its best options, considering it combines the utility of SubSeeding with the sweeping potential of Contrarian.
Personally, I highly doubt that Leaf Storm gives Jaroda a +2 special attack boost; just a -2.
Though I could be wrong.
Subseeding is an interesting option on Jaroda, but I think it needs another push besides bulk and speed.
For example, Jumpluff has encore and sleep powder, and forces switches.
Mean Look definitely is an interesting option, though. That in itself, if the opponent cannot kill Jaroda, will make it much more useful.
Then again, it is unlikely when people know about it that they will carelessly switch in to Mean Look.
And taking all of the above, I just think it will be hard for Jaroda to add much support to a team.
But depending on Contrarian, it may have a special niche.
Though I could be wrong.
Subseeding is an interesting option on Jaroda, but I think it needs another push besides bulk and speed.
For example, Jumpluff has encore and sleep powder, and forces switches.
Mean Look definitely is an interesting option, though. That in itself, if the opponent cannot kill Jaroda, will make it much more useful.
Then again, it is unlikely when people know about it that they will carelessly switch in to Mean Look.
And taking all of the above, I just think it will be hard for Jaroda to add much support to a team.
But depending on Contrarian, it may have a special niche.
Fun Fact:
252 SpA, Neutral Jaroba does the same damage over two turns with Leaf Storm as any non-contrarian Grass-type with 498 Special Attack. That's one point higher than Modest Roserade holding a Life Orb.
Won't we all feel silly if that's the case : O
252 SpA, Neutral Jaroba does the same damage over two turns with Leaf Storm as any non-contrarian Grass-type with 498 Special Attack. That's one point higher than Modest Roserade holding a Life Orb.
Won't we all feel silly if that's the case : O
Well, i'm... afraid now.
Contrarian could only raise stats on a move used by the enemy (say, Featherdance, Scary Face, Screech... Iron Tail defense drop... Icy Wind speed drop...)
If that's the case (bolded because it's a peosonal theorymon), Jaroda goes back to suckyness.
It still can use Leech Seed effectively though. Especially with Taunt.
Contrarian could only raise stats on a move used by the enemy (say, Featherdance, Scary Face, Screech... Iron Tail defense drop... Icy Wind speed drop...)
If that's the case (bolded because it's a peosonal theorymon), Jaroda goes back to suckyness.
It still can use Leech Seed effectively though. Especially with Taunt.
If he's to be believed.
Either way, this should be tested more extensively to be certain.
What if it lowers their stats when they use a self-boosting move? Perhaps not, I haven't read the original translation, but that'd be amazing... switch into Garchomp as it Swords Dances, watching it halve its attack.
Smogon is running very slow these last days...
Hell, if we can believe the Gamefaqs guy, then there's nothing to fear.
@ Blasphemy1: if this also affects the opposing poke, this ability is damn good. I mean, you can just switch on any set up sweeper and cripple them. Ouch.
Anyway, it Leaf Storm does raise SPA, i see Jaroda as a very good Scarfer. Come in on something that can be taken with Leaf Storm (Starmie, Swampert, ground poke...), and watch as you go spamming a STAB 140 BP move and rasing your SpA by 2 everytime you do.
Hell, if we can believe the Gamefaqs guy, then there's nothing to fear.
@ Blasphemy1: if this also affects the opposing poke, this ability is damn good. I mean, you can just switch on any set up sweeper and cripple them. Ouch.
Anyway, it Leaf Storm does raise SPA, i see Jaroda as a very good Scarfer. Come in on something that can be taken with Leaf Storm (Starmie, Swampert, ground poke...), and watch as you go spamming a STAB 140 BP move and rasing your SpA by 2 everytime you do.
That is likely due to the increased traffic the site has been getting.
And I don't think he would be a good Scarfer. Grass is a pretty poor attacking type. You aren't going to be doing much to bulky Pokemon that 2x or 4x resist your STAB even with boosts. Without Leaf Storm his special attack sucks, and he doesn't even have great coverage.
If contrarian is the correct translation, it could very well affect both sides, just basing this off the definition (opposing the common positions within a group). Anyone willing to test this? I really don't know how to, though.
But yeah, I'm hoping it does that. Leaf Storm isn't going to hurt Scizor, Skarmory, or Heatran, even after two hits, and you'll be OHKOed by them. It won't really hurt 2x resistors either, and most of them can threaten you.
But yeah, I'm hoping it does that. Leaf Storm isn't going to hurt Scizor, Skarmory, or Heatran, even after two hits, and you'll be OHKOed by them. It won't really hurt 2x resistors either, and most of them can threaten you.
That's a big if.
Shanderaa?
Come in, trap, kill. Jaroda is free to spam Leaf Storm now.
And Fire+Grass combo was always good both defensively and offensively (well, it makes part of the G/F/W core...)