Metagame Shared Power

fratelli bc said:
So with the bear brothers around, Crit teams are good now.
DarkShifu is better bc has no immunities. Combine this with a Tsareena to shut down triage teams and thats overkill
Also, Wicked Blow/Surging Strikes are fist moves, so they are buffed by Iron Fist.
Shell Armor is also only used on hard stall teams, and the users are... Terrible, or have better abilities.
Click to expand...

Well that just aged like milk out of the fridge...

I think only darkshifu should be banned.
Rapid strike is ruined by water absorb, iron barbs, rough skin and just... Faster pokemon in general.

Anyway...
 
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Ban magearna

Magearna can be easily boosted by both offensive abilities and diffensive abilities,snowball and end the game.With combo of Soul-Heart,Grim Neigh and Beast Boost,it has +3spa by knock down only one pokemo and sweep easily with draining kiss+store power. On the other hand,it has Mutilscale,Ice Scale,Stamina,Fluffy+Flash Fire,Levitate,
...... So many broken combos for just one shiftcalm set. Prankhaze may the only way to counter this, but the best haze user toxpex was banned,and other set like adaptability spec fleur cannon can beat this.
 
:quick-claw:The #1 Grimiest Way To Use Priority WITHOUT Getting Hosed By Queenly Majesty:slowbro-galar:

With Queenly Majesty and Psychic Surge killing priority moves, games can easily run out of hand when a Sturdy Shell Smash mon decides to sweep your whole team. Don't you wish there were a 100% guaranteed way to revenge kill faster mons, 44% of the time?

Well, there is! Quick Claw + Quick Draw Galarian-Slowbro lets your whole team have a 44% chance to outspeed any other Pokemon in its priority bracket. Importantly, these moves do not count as priority moves, so Tsareena/Lele can't stop them. If you run QCQD with a priority-preventer of your own, there's nothing that can outspeed you!

I think Glowbro and friends fit nicely on a Trick Room team with Psysurge support, so I whipped one up:

Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Shell Side Arm
- Expanding Force
- Trick Room

Crawdaunt @ Quick Claw
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance

Tapu Lele @ Quick Claw
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball

Conkeldurr @ Quick Claw
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Defog

Stakataka @ Quick Claw
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 13 Def / 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Trick Room

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Recover
- Teleport
- Trick Room

It's got everything you'd want: Adaptability, Sheer Force, Beast Boost, and a bunch of heavy hitters. The best part: 5 Quick Claw Quick Draw abusers. Even if you aren't able to keep Trick Room up, the enemy mons always have to fear an unpredictable priority attack. It's like having half a Trick Room at all times!

There is a special feeling of relief, satisfaction, and guilt all rolled into one when you get bailed out by Quick Draw in a critical situation. Don't let yourself miss out on the experience!
 
I built a team and I was using Scizor as my technician user and it was not activating. I was going to use it with rillaboom to do massive amounts of damage with grassy glide and for some reason, it was not registering on showdown that technician was activated when I hovered over the move. Can anyone explain this?



Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bug Bite

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Aromatherapy
- Teleport
- Soft-Boiled

Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Acrobatics
- Superpower

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Cut
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Close Combat
- Leech Life
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch
 
Fishy79 said:
I built a team and I was using Scizor as my technician user and it was not activating. I was going to use it with rillaboom to do massive amounts of damage with grassy glide and for some reason, it was not registering on showdown that technician was activated when I hovered over the move. Can anyone explain this?



Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bug Bite

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Aromatherapy
- Teleport
- Soft-Boiled

Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Acrobatics
- Superpower

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Cut
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Close Combat
- Leech Life
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch
Click to expand...
Grassy Glide is 70 BP, and therefore outside of Technician's range
 
Geyro said:
Can't we ban Prankster Destiny bond?
Loose one mon and it's over
Click to expand...

Hehe my favourite archetype. I've ran through a few variants and this is the best one by far:

grimmsnarl.gif
decidueye.gif
delibird.gif
doublade.gif
froslass.gif
mimikyu.gif


Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Play Rough
- Darkest Lariat
- Taunt

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Substitute

Froslass (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Poltergeist
- Destiny Bond
- Switcheroo

Delibird @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Spikes
- Ice Punch
- Avalanche

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Sneak

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Destiny Bond

The strategy vs offense is just to get enough kills before you start clicking destiny bond. Most people just switch around at the start of the game to boost their one big set up sweeper, so if you pick off two mons during that you're fine. No one is running status on offense really so the most you have to worry about is the surprise scarf, taunt or magma storm.

Everything else is tailored towards helping with fatter teams:

Grimmsnarl's set is good vs fat and also chunks stuff early on vs offense.
Decidueye is mainly here because Long Reach bypasses Fluffy, which is what 90% of defensive teams are relying on to deal with physical mons - no one is running Marvel Scale or Intimidate right now, and Stamina doesn't much help against setup mons. With that in place you don't need to stack 5 boosting abilities like most teams do, Hustle+No Guard gives every mon a band boost which is more than enough to break through walls. Besides that Spirit Shackle is very potent vs fat, since the Normal types immune to it are usually set up bait.
Delibird gives Hustle along with being a dbond user, and spikes are handy to have vs Sturdy. Avalanche has negative priority to meme stuff that thinks it's safe with Dbond.
Doublade gobbles hits and gives No Guard, and is also immune to toxic.
Froslass might have an underwhelming attack stat but it has strong STABs and great speed, so it doesn't need to rely on Destiny Bond much. This is why I gave it band trick, for a little extra help vs the fat, even though it weakens its Dbond plays. Cursed Body is actually pretty decent to let things set up by disabling key coverage.
Mimikyu doesn't donate any abilities but the ability to stomach a hit from anything, ko back and then to dbond and take something else down is very strong. The team doesn't need more abilities much anyway, and strong abilities for Dbond users are pretty scarce so you're not missing out on much.

There is plenty of counterplay, people just need to become aware of the archetype, and I think something that dunks on the HO set up stuff right now is probably healthy. It didn't get banned last gen when we had stronger abusers.

On that note, at this point I don't know if the change to having to switch mons in before abilities are activated and starting the banlist at a clean slate really did anything - all the same stuff is broken. Like I don't see how Prankster + Sub won't be an issue in future when someone is bored enough to abuse it with Pressure or why Regenerator isn't as silly as it has literally always been.
 
anyone know how adaptability works with technician? would adaptability come first and push me out of technician range, or would technician come first then adaptability would boost me further?
 
vibivgc said:
anyone know how adaptability works with technician? would adaptability come first and push me out of technician range, or would technician come first then adaptability would boost me further?
Click to expand...
Adaptability doesn't affect base power, rather, the STAB boost, so the technician boost will remain.
 
Does long reach ignore tough claws?
Like... One says your moves will not make contact, and the other says your cantacting moves will have increased BP.

Edit: Dracovish is allowed, and Quick Draw makes it annoying. Unless you are Water Absorb/Storm Drain, this thing will just stack offensive abilities and hope for Quick Draw/Claw combo activate, creating really uncomfortable RNG battles, since Quick Draw/Claw is not stoped by Queenly Majesty.
 
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cscl said:
Ban magearna

Magearna can be easily boosted by both offensive abilities and diffensive abilities,snowball and end the game.With combo of Soul-Heart,Grim Neigh and Beast Boost,it has +3spa by knock down only one pokemo and sweep easily with draining kiss+store power. On the other hand,it has Mutilscale,Ice Scale,Stamina,Fluffy+Flash Fire,Levitate,
...... So many broken combos for just one shiftcalm set. Prankhaze may the only way to counter this, but the best haze user toxpex was banned,and other set like adaptability spec fleur cannon can beat this.
Click to expand...
Agreed. When put on a good defensive team and not used recklessly, it can survive almost anything and either kill or sweep in return. The team I've been using isn't great, but it supports it so well that it can easily win most matchups.
Mudsdale @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Body Press
- Toxic

Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Outrage
- Roost

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Toxic

Most of the Pokemon on this team aren't greatly optimized, but together they support Magearna so well it becomes nearly impossible to handle. With Ice Scales and Multiscale, no +2 special attack kills it outright without a crit or prior damage, while Stamina makes Skill Link a liability. Vs a +2 Cloyster, it survives a +2 Liquidation with Multiscale, and heals to full with a Draining Kiss. The things I've seen that worked best against it are Corrosion and Thunder Wave, but it destroys poison types anyways, and you can always change the team structure to beat its checks. Corviknight and Tangrowth could be replaced with an immunity user, Natural Heal support (Blissey could fill this role especially well, due to the combination of Wish and Teleport) or Battle Armor user, invalidating other checks without meaningfully diminishing its defensive and offensive utility.
This is just one set that seems clearly broken to me in this meta, and Magearna has been renowned for its adaptability in other metagames. We need to consider a ban now.
 
So I've played a fair bit recently, and although I do like the core concept of this OM, I feel there's a little too much to handle that prevents this from being an enjoyable time. These are just quick impressions or thoughts I wanted to put out there. I'll still continue to experiment and ladder, but it feels really disheartening to try to.

:magearna:

This just ends up being way too much honestly. A lot of games end up being decided on who built around Magearna better, and it also contributes to really dumb set-up centric teams. If you don't have Haze or Whirlwind, or have a powerful enough breaker to deter/prevent set-up you might as well just forfeit. It really warps the metagame around either winning with Magearna or trying everything to stop it from winning, to such a degree I'm not comfortable with.


:slowbro-galar::jirachi:

Quick Claw and Serene Grace take away a lot of nuance and skill from a battle pretty quickly. They both can make games an absolute gamble every turn they're active, while also enabling extremely dangerous sweepers and breakers. Counter play to these strategies are also fairly limited from experience.

:blacephalon::kartana::spectrier:

Similarly to Magearna, Stat-boosting abilities (alongside priority immune abilities) like Beast Boost and Grim/Chilling Neigh can end up snowballing pretty quickly without any kind of phazing, especially since you can't prevent these boosts with Taunt.


Other stuff like Terrains and Crawdaunt also tend to be a little annoying to counter play, but I can't say with confidence at the moment these immediately need attention. I'll probably end up lurking and playing some more to have a more in-depth understanding of this meta, but the current state feels extremely centralizing to say the least. I'm expecting more seasoned players to maybe chime in, and I'd be more than grateful to learn more about this OM.
 
Gotta say that right now prankster destiny bond teams feel pretty obnoxious to me. They have an overwhelmingly positive matchup against basically every form of offense (except for Triage spam I guess). Although offenses highly built around priority can supersede the prankster, this all falls flat once the d-bond team starts running its own tsareena. Similarly keeping hazards can help prevent the prankster team from doing much more than going one-for-one on everything, but that is easier said than done when a prankster defog can lurk around every corner. It basically turns into a crapshoot where the only hope of the ofeense player winning is to predict perfectly every turn or run lots of weird techs. The team posted by Skankovich on the last page has been relatively common and very effective at curtailing offense, and it isn't even that much of an anti-offensive team, with basically everything on it besides the prankster Destiny Bond reinforcing its matchup against fat teams, so further refinements can be made to it to crush offense even more. In my personal opinion its very unfun to play against when the counterplay to it is "just don't run offense bro. also you need to predict the destiny bond every time".

Also I totally understand arguments for snowballing abilities and Magearna being broken but I feel like the fact that they need to get kills initially to start snowballing makes them in some ways, less consistent than a straight up damage booster like adaptability, hustle, or sheer force. Getting that initial kill can be fairly tough against fat teams with Frosmoth and such. Against offense being able to get Speed Beast Boosts makes revenge killing outside of priority fairly tough, but thankfully, priority is very viable and in no short supply. Of course, priority can be countered with Queenly Majesty, which brings me to my point that Tsareena, and to a lesser extent Tapu Lele, are extremely overcentralizing and are the common denominator for enabling some arguably broken strategies, like speed-boosting snowballers, Sturdy + Shell Smash offenses, and other stuff like that. Tsareena feels necessary on every offense team to not lose to every other offense team, with Queenly Majesty protecting from standard priority spammers like Crawdaunt, Grassy Glide spam, Triage teams, random Prankster + status users, etc. It's all just a very precarious balance, with anti-priority keeping so much in check right now, and the result being overcentralization.

So basically my point is that this meta feels like (and always has tbh) a sort of "broken checking broken" balance, with Tsareena being necessary on every team to check offenses, prankster Destiny Bond being very devastating against offense, but without these factors the metagame would spiral out of control with more and more insane offenses. Gotta say though that fat stall teams actually feel pretty fair right now though, regen + Multiscale is a bitch but with enough power boosting abilities and hazard pressure + knock off (unless they have sticky hold) that you can slot on offenses without stretching too much it feels manageable. Fur Coat's ban makes it a lot more fair too cause Fluffy has a lot of shortcomings, like stacking on a fire weakness unless you run Heatran, only working on contact moves, and being easily nullified by Decidueye which I've seen more and more of. There's my 2 cents

EDIT: To add to Pigeons' post below I agree that Regenerator is uncompetitive in this metagame since two Regen teams will be forced into an endless pivoting stalemate with zero progress extremely easily (To be fair this can happen in standard play as well quite easily with 2-3 mon Regen cores. Regenerator was honestly a mistake). At the same time, outside of that, stall teams don't feel super unfair, but I agree that they are matchup-based. Personally I do not believe Regenerator is the biggest culprit in the current meta but if we decide that all fat v. fat matchups ending with /offerdraw at turn 100 is something we don't want then ban it for sure
 
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