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Finchinator

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Why do most Heatrans use Flash Fire? Is the fire immunity that useful? Flame Body seems good in my testing so far
Being immune to fire is huge in a metagame with Cinderace, opposing Heatran, Volcarona, Rotom-H, the occasional sun team, CM + Flamethrower Clefable, and a number of other things with Fire moves commonly used. Being able to punish the occasional U-turn or weaker Knock Off is not worthwhile overall unless you want to totally retool your team to not rely on Heatran for checking a number of Pokemon (most notably Volcarona), which means you are not getting nearly enough mileage out of Heatran to justify using it as often and effectively as is.
 
What's the most viable glue mon I can use to not autolose to rain? I feel like I'll spend an hour in teambuilder thinking through everything and get to the end and see Kingdra/Barracsuda and Seismitoad eat my team.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
What's the most viable glue mon I can use to not autolose to rain? I feel like I'll spend an hour in teambuilder thinking through everything and get to the end and see Kingdra/Barracsuda and Seismitoad eat my team.
Ferrothorn can be a good glue-mon, which can reliably set entry hazards as well, to make it more difficult for rain teams to constantly switch in their threats like Barraskewda, Seismitoad, and Kingdra. Another great glue-mon could be Slowking, this Pokemon has the defensive ability to check Kingdra and Seismitoad very well. It can also Teleport out or use Future Sight to further pressure all members of the opposing team. It can also help with Future Sight vs other Rain abusers like Urshifu-Rapid Strike. Slowbro helps against Barraskewda and can also use the same utility-assets like Slowking with teleport and Future Sight. Both Slows have also Slack Off to guarantee a longevity during that.
Another more offensive oriented threat to rain-teams is Rillaboom with a strong Grassy Glide as a form of priority to handle mons such as Seismitoad, Barraskewda, Kingdra when chipped, and also Urshifu-Rapid Strike.
Another great defensive utility could be Tapu Fini, Tapu Fini checks Specs-locked Kingdra pretty well and can threaten it back with a strong STAB-option in Moonblast. Tapu Fini can also handle Barraskewda and Seismitoad, alltho it has to be wary about Sludge Wave coming from the latter.
Other great options involve Toxapex especially against Barraskewda, since Barraskewda can't do much against it when it is locked in its Choice Band.
Amoonguss while decreasing in usage can help vs Rain as well as it can check Barraskewda, Seismitoad, and Urshifu-Rapid Strike.

Hope this helped :)
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Is there any chance that Lickilicky has any merit on some stall teams? It's obviously largely outclassed by Blissey but having access to Knock Off is great, especially against opposing stall, and Oblivious making it immune to Taunt can be really nice. Some stall teams can have issues with things like Taunt Heatran, Taunt/Disable Spectrier, and even Taunt Fini with Nature's Madness can be annoying in its ability to keep Blissey low. I think that max HP/SpDef Lickilicky with Wish, Protect, Toxic, and Knock Off should be able to beat any Spectrier set, stall out Taunt-Magma Storm Heatrans that don't have Toxic (and many Heatrans seem to have Stealth Rocks and Earth Power in those last two slots), and be able to stay healthier against Fini while threatening to Knock. Lickilicky would need Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support, but that shouldn't be too hard to fit on stall since Unaware Clef is fairly common on Stall and can usually fit that. Many stall teams also appreciate having a Wish-passer and Lickilicky would fill that role as well. As I said though, Lickilicky clearly is overshadowed by Blissey in most regards, but I was wondering if anyone else has tried it on stall?
 
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By the end of SS OU, what do you guys think will ultimately get (un)banned and what won't? Putting this post here cuz I don't want to derail any discussions in the metagame forum since this is admittedly kinda a useless post that I'm making for my own (and hopefully your) amusement. And so I can say I told you so in 2 years
Disclaimer: I don't think all or even most of these threats are broken in the current meta game, I am just speculating how I think the meta will develop; these aren't even necessarily my own personal opinions either, but just how I think the community will vote.
:Zygarde: Easily banned, no questions asked
:Kyurem-Black: ^
:Pheromosa: Banned. Not sure if this is broken now, but I don't think it will stick around too much longer after Kyurem-B and Zygarde go. Absolutely atrocious bulk, but too fast and too strong (both special and physical) as well as having a good ability, many viable sets, and even other boons like Quiver Dance and Rapid Spin. Definitely suffers from 4MSS and can't do it all at once, but it can do more than enough.
:Magearna: Banned. I think the boosting sets, especially behind screens, are very sus; specs is still very good like it was in DLC1 and blows you away if you predicted it to be an AV or setup set. I think this mon is still too good and has too many good sets that I don't see it staying OU for the long term.
:Zamazenta: Stays banned, I doubt it will even be suspected.

To be honest, I feel relatively confident about my above guesses. Obviously Zygarde and Kyurem-B are going in ~1 week, but I still am pretty sure Pheromosa and Mag will leave in the coming months as well. I also just don't see regular Zamazenta getting a suspect test. Now onto some stuff I'm not so sure about.

:Spectrier: Banned. I think this is a somewhat hot take, but this mon basically forces a solid ghost resist, which are not common in OU, onto every team. Furthermore, despite its limited movepool, it surprisingly has a handful of viable sets that are pretty good and I think this will put it over the edge in the community's eyes as time passes. My timetable for this getting banned is in ~4 months from now
:Melmetal: Not banned. Suspected, but not banned. Melmetal is kinda dumb and can basically 1v1 every physical attacker thanks to its high Hp, Def, and Atk. However, it is really slow and doesn't have great special bulk; additionally, DLC2 brought solid new checks like Flame Body Moltres and Static Zapdos so I think this will be enough to (barely) keep it OU. If it gets suspected a second time I could see it being banned, but I don't think that will happen. My bold take is that this is the only suspect test that doesn't result in a ban. My even bolder take is that slightly over 50% vote to ban it, but it doesn't get the required clear majority.
:Blaziken: Not banned. Changed my mind to banned. This is definitely underwhelming so far compared to people's expectations, but I think there is a small chance it could be a problem in the future. However, I think it kills itself too easily, has a terrible case of 4MSS, and there are still a handful of solid checks to it that are good in OU anyway, which is why I don't think it will be banned. I'm thinking this could be too much down the line with a set of Close Combat, Flare Blitz, Swords Dance, Thunder Punch, and screens support.
:Zamazenta-Crowned: Stays banned. This is a tough one, but I'm gonna say it gets suspected and remains banned. I think it's probably just a little too bulky while also being fast and having respectable offensive capabilities. Could really see this going either way but I'm sticking with banned since I feel people (probably including myself too lol) are kinda biased against cover legendaries in OU. The fact that you're also forcing an otherwise banned pokemon to hold an item to be legal in OU, even if that's perfectly in accordance with tiering policy, will also contribute to swaying key voters to stay banned in my opinion.
:Cinderace: Not banned. Time will tell, but right now I don't foresee it getting out of control at the moment. Could definitely be wrong.
:Tornadus-Therian: Not banned. Including this just cuz it was on the recent OU survey, but I would be very shocked if it gets banned.
:Toxapex: Banned. Honestly, I thought Toxapex was maybe broken and could have gotten banned relatively soon if we didn't have DLC2. I think over the years the community has slowly been getting fed up with the Pex and there has been an increasing outcry against offensive mons getting banned and not more super annoying defensively inclined ones. This is a tough question because as far as I'm aware, the only purely defensive mon that has been OU for a while and later gotten banned since I started playing in BW is Mega Sableye. My bold claim here is this will be the last suspect test of the generation, and as long as the next gen doesn't come early and new mons aren't released by GameFreak over the next two years, Pex will eventually be banned. I think people are sick of a fat regen mon with good overall bulk, a good defensive typing, annoying utility in scald and knock off, access to more annoying moves like toxic spikes and baneful bunker, a recovery move, and the nail in the coffin, which is Haze to prevent setup. Did I mention it's super annoying? I know this is a pretty hot take lol
:Urshifu: Not banned. Kinda surprised this wasn't included in the OU survey because I thought it was potentially broken in DLC1. I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually gets banned (I found out the hard way it even gets Aerial Ace for Buzzwole lol), but, that being said, I think it will narrowly avoid the ban.
:Clefable: Not banned. Only including this because I have seen many people calling for a Clefable suspect starting maybe last gen(?) and definitely in DLC1. That being said, regardless of whether Clef is actually broken (I don't think it is or will be), I don't see the community voting to ban it.

I feel reasonably good about most of my guesses. The main tossups in my mind will be Spectrier, Melmetal, Pex, and maybe Urshifu. I think the dark horses to get banned are Blaziken and Cinderace (as well as Pex too but I sent that one haha).

EDIT: 11/18/20: Changed my mind, Blaziken is getting banned too and I feel even more confident about Spectrier
I don't believe this will actually happen, but this is something I find plausible that sounds super random: :Ditto: getting banned because stall teams use it to prevent setup sweepers from breaking them
:Mew: getting banned because it got access to even more moves this gen and has basically unlimited potential, despite being slightly outclassed at many things. If using essentially random Mew sets ever caught on, switching into it could perhaps become guesswork. Plus, it gets Spikes as of this gen which makes it very comparable to the Deoxys leads that got banned in the DeoSharp era a long time ago.
 
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AM

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Is there any chance that Lickilicky has any merit on some stall teams? It's obviously largely outclassed by Blissey but having access to Knock Off is great, especially against opposing stall, and Oblivious making it immune to Taunt can be really nice. Some stall teams can have issues with things like Taunt Heatran, Taunt/Disable Spectrier, and even Taunt Fini with Nature's Madness can be annoying in its ability to keep Blissey low. I think that max HP/SpDef Lickilicky with Wish, Protect, Toxic, and Knock Off should be able to beat any Spectrier set, stall out Taunt-Magma Storm Heatrans that don't have Toxic (and many Heatrans seem to have Stealth Rocks and Earth Power in those last two slots), and be able to stay healthier against Fini while threatening to Knock. Lickilicky would need Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support, but that shouldn't be too hard to fit on stall since Unaware Clef is fairly common on Stall and can usually fit that. Many stall teams also appreciate having a Wish-passer and Lickilicky would fill that role as well. As I said though, Lickilicky clearly is overshadowed by Blissey in most regards, but I was wondering if anyone else has tried it on stall?
I’ve seen only one and it felt underwhelming in practice in comparison to blissey/chansey. I thinks it a neat idea but there’s a lot of things right now that can take advantage of it when you move past some of the stall breakers mentioned here. Perhaps it’s just unexplored and needs a specific build to work, akin to previous gen shedinjas.
 
Since Zamazenta-C has been overtly discussed by literally everyone, this question is specifically meant for staff / the council.

Assuming that the Zygarde / Kyu-B suspects / QBs happen soon, is there a reasonable timetable the userbase can expect a suspect test of Zamazenta-C in OU?
I don't know if you'll get a response from council or staff on this, but I will point out that there are several threats still on the council's radar such as Pheromosa whose suspect would likely take priority over trying to test anything into OU from Ubers. It's bizarre to ask for a reasonable timetable for something that is not guaranteed.
 
Does Slowking still have merit in OU? It's part of the Dracozolt team on the OU Sample Teams thread, but honestly, I'm not getting much use out it when I use that team... Is there anything which does its job better?
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Does Slowking still have merit in OU? It's part of the Dracozolt team on the OU Sample Teams thread, but honestly, I'm not getting much use out it when I use that team... Is there anything which does its job better?
Slowking still has a great supportive role and compresses many roles on this particular team. It can help versus weather team, in particular rain. As this team struggles to have a check to rain teams, Slowking helps in this case, as it can help against Kingdra and Seismitoad alike. Furthermore it can pressure Urshifu-Rapid Strike with Furture Sight and has reliable recovery in Slack Off and Regenerator, which makes it a great Pokemon on this archetype. It can further help the rest of the team with using teleport to give Excadrill, Dracozolt of Buzzwole a free and safe switch-in.

Slowking is very important on this team as it gives this team a great water-resist, which this team lacks, as Dracozolt while resisting water, is prone to get worn down by entry hazards and the Life Orb-recoil pretty easily, therefore another water-resist is required.

I think Slowking does the job pretty well on this team and can help out a ton especially with it being an actual good water-resist and pressuring opposing Pokemon with Future Sight and the reliable Recovery options.
 

Ruft

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Does Slowking still have merit in OU? It's part of the Dracozolt team on the OU Sample Teams thread, but honestly, I'm not getting much use out it when I use that team... Is there anything which does its job better?
Hello, I'm the creator of that team. Slowking was necessary to check Landorus-I at the time. If I were to update the team now, I think I'd change Slowking to Ferrothorn to check Tapu Fini and provide a Knock Off user and more pressure with Spikes, and make Moltres Scorching Sands over Air Slash so it has a positive matchup vs Heatran (Blaziken is way less prominent now). Can probably replace Buzzwole with Clefable on that team too at this point; the other members would appreciate Wish support a lot.

https://pokepast.es/7f84d9ebfe8eab21 - New version, can't guarantee it's good since I haven't tested it and the metagame is once again new with today's bans.

Slowking itself definitely still has merit as a specially defensive Future Sight pivot alternative to Slowbro like Katy pointed out.
 
What's the absolute best stallbreaker Kyurem set? I can't decide if metronome is good anymore, or should I be using leftovers or boots or dragon dance :psygrump: too many options...

also can someone explain the play sequence to me if I'm against a toxapex? like what should I be clicking to ensure that I have PP and win the matchup
 
What's the absolute best stallbreaker Kyurem set? I can't decide if metronome is good anymore, or should I be using leftovers or boots or dragon dance :psygrump: too many options...

also can someone explain the play sequence to me if I'm against a toxapex? like what should I be clicking to ensure that I have PP and win the matchup
This is a set I used months ago, it for sure still works against stall:

Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpD / 200 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Roost
- Substitute
- Icicle Spear
- Freeze-Dry

You only need to spam Freeze Dry against Toxapex.
Icicle Spear beats Chansey / Blissey.
 

Finchinator

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What's a decent bulky clef EV spread atm? Going 252 def always feels a bit weird
With Dragapult running Timid almost always, running 84 SDef to live 2 Hex when statused becomes a possibility. However, maximizing defense is helpful for Urshifu, Landorus-T, and other physical threats. Thankfully you do have a little more flexibility without Zygarde in the tier, but there is still a lot to focus on physically.
 
Maybe someone would address this as a "simple question, simple answer" but I feel like I need to ask it:
Why does Ubers not dictate the usage of OU?
Why does OU get to skate by, completely unaffected by the other tiers?
I know this is going to be blasted, but Cinderace was top10 usage in Ubers about two months ago. A mon with a top 10 Ubers usage probably doesn't belong in OU (which, at the time it was correctly banned.)

What is Zamazenta's % usage in Uber? If it's an upper eschelon pokemon, then it should not be allowed in OU.
All this talk about blurring the line has existed for generations now. But the clear cutoff should be usage stats, just as it is for every other tier.
Rhyperior bounced from RU to OU and then back down Pre-DLC. This wreaked havoc on RU and UU alike. OU should be subject to the same rules.

Zygarde was a fantastic and absolutely correct ban. Kyurem-B was an absolutely correct ban. Thank you to the OU council for rapidly addressing these mons.
Thank you for opening the discussion about Zam. It is a conversation that is worth having. I don't like it, as I've outlined above. I believe the mon firmy belongs in Ubers, and thus should not be in OU.

And because I know this post will cause problems: I apologize to the admins and other kind souls who frequent the forum and are striving to maintain order.
The DLC has been a nightmare, and your efforts to create a fun, enjoyable game for as much of the playerbase is greatly appreciated.
 
Maybe someone would address this as a "simple question, simple answer" but I feel like I need to ask it:
Correct! I moved your post to the thread.

Why does Ubers not dictate the usage of OU?
Because Ubers is primarily a banlist, and a tier secondly; its usage does not dictate OU as a result of being a banlist first and foremost.

Why does OU get to skate by, completely unaffected by the other tiers?
Because OU is the highest usage based tier.

I know this is going to be blasted, but Cinderace was top10 usage in Ubers about two months ago. A mon with a top 10 Ubers usage probably doesn't belong in OU (which, at the time it was correctly banned.)
Usage does not correlate to viability at all and usage in Ubers does not indicate how broken a Pokemon is in OU. Ubers and OU are completely different tiers and there is no point to comparing them like that. For example, Excadrill saw (sees?) really high usage in Ubers because it is perhaps the best speed control the tier has. That does not mean OU cannot adequately handle it, though. We have Pokemon like Corviknight, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Slowbro, etc. all available to check it.

What is Zamazenta's % usage in Uber? If it's an upper eschelon pokemon, then it should not be allowed in OU.
It hovers around .5% last I checked. However, usage does not dictate whether a Pokemon is fit to drop to OU or not. It is really important to understand that usage does not equate viability!! There is only a correlation between them, but one does not dictate the other.

I hope this helped clear up some things.
 
Correct! I moved your post to the thread.


Because Ubers is primarily a banlist, and a tier secondly; its usage does not dictate OU as a result of being a banlist first and foremost.


Because OU is the highest usage based tier.


Usage does not correlate to viability at all and usage in Ubers does not indicate how broken a Pokemon is in OU. Ubers and OU are completely different tiers and there is no point to comparing them like that. For example, Excadrill saw (sees?) really high usage in Ubers because it is perhaps the best speed control the tier has. That does not mean OU cannot adequately handle it, though. We have Pokemon like Corviknight, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Slowbro, etc. all available to check it.


It hovers around .5% last I checked. However, usage does not dictate whether a Pokemon is fit to drop to OU or not. It is really important to understand that usage does not equate viability!! There is only a correlation between them, but one does not dictate the other.

I hope this helped clear up some things.
Yes thank you so much!!!! Thank you for moving my post, a clear, concise response, and a prompt answer!!!
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Is Zeroara still viable in OU despite being in UU? If so what sets could it run?
Hello,

I would say Zeraora is still viable, but not as viable as it was before the DLC 2 Pack Crown Tundra dropped, since there are plenty of new enemies Zeraora encounters as a whole, such as Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Nidoking, and Swampert, which all have high usage in OU and are on a lot of different teams.

As an electric-type breaker it also faces stiff competition with Tapu Koko, Zapdos (on Rain-Teams), Dracozolt (on Sand-Teams), and occosionally Choice Specs Regieleki as well as Rotom-Heat.

Moreover plenty of Pokemon tend to run Scarf besides being naturally fast to begin with, such as Spectrier and Dragapult to have an easier time to revengekill certain threats in the current meta. To add on Speedy-Pokemon Pheromosa and Barraskewda see a high usage as well.

I would say it is still viable but definitely not a top threat to prepare for in the current metagame, as the mentioned Pokemon above either threaten Zeraora in their own right defensively or offensively or Zeraora faces stiff competition from Pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Zapdos.
 
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Now that Zygarde and Kyu-B have been banned, will you make a new survey not including them? There’s also the other issue that the metagame has improved with them gone, so many people’s issues with it before leading them to give it a low score are now gone.
 
Hello,

I would say Zeraora is still viable, but not as viable as it was before the DLC 2 Pack Crown Tundra dropped, since there are plenty of new enemies Zeraora encounters as a whole, such as Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Nidoking, and Swampert, which all have high usage in OU and are on a lot of different teams.

As an electric-type breaker it also faces stiff competition with Tapu Koko, Zapdos (on Rain-Teams), Dracozolt (on Sand-Teams), and occosionally Choice Specs Regieleki as well as Rotom-Heat.

Moreover plenty of Pokemon tend to run Scarf besides being naturally fast to begin with, such as Spectrier and Dragapult to have an easier time to revengekill certain threats in the current meta. To add on Speedy-Pokemon Pheromosa and Barraskewda see a high usage as well.

I would say it is still viable but definitely not a top threat to prepare for in the current metagame, as the mentioned Pokemon above either threaten Zeraora in their own right defensively or offensively or Zeraora faces stiff competition from Pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Zapdos.
Ok, thanks for the info, I'll look into these other options.
 

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