Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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tyranitar.gif

Tyranitar 1.5 ----> 2
Although ttar definitely got a buff this gen and sounds great in theory, it still is far too awkward in use to warrant its current tier standing. Ttar is still incredibly weak to lando-t and any forms of intimidate, it has a poor matchup with the tapus, and is still walled by bulky water types and steels which have never been more common due to the rise of mega sally and the tapus. It's base speed makes it tough to use on any type of team and sand is still severely outclassed by other weathers due to the lack of quality pokemon with sand rush (excadrill is mediocre at best) and because ttar has a poor matchup against most of the tier 1 and 1.5 mons. It shouldn't even be in the same sentence as zygod, lele, koko, celesteela, and aegi which are all tier 1.5 atm
 
diancie.gif

Diancie 4 --> 3
This thing is crazy good on the right team. It's a physical attacker that can't be intimidated, and a TR setter that beats frail Dark and Ghost types. Weakness Policy lets you (probably) live a super-effective hit, then GG most of the opposing team with +2 Diamond Storms which will likely skyrocket your defense stat. I've also been toying with Diancie + Swagpulse Fini, which is able to feed Diancie Swagger boosts and recovery, and that's been going really well. On that set, you can run a pinch berry > Weakness Policy since you already have a reliable method for boosting your attack, and Diance is fat enough that it'll probably get a chance to use the pinch berry in most matchups.
 
supporting both diancie and ferrothorn nominations. without echoing whats been said too much, ferrothorn is pretty darn good lately in the meta with fantastic typing and capability to switch in and seed vs many common pokemon, and diancie being one the best (and few) trick room setters atm

also with the swampert mega nom, but i think its just as good as kingdra so putting it on the same rank seems better
 
GenOne said:
With six interesting new megas released in the past week, we got two actually viable Megas in Swampert and Abomasnow. While the other four new Megas warrant further testing before being nomed imo, I think it's pretty obvious that Swampert and Abomasnow will have a place in this metagame:



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Mega Abomasnow --> UR to Tier 4
This meta's first truly viable full-Trick Room Mega has decent matchups against a lot of the meta's current threats, including Lando-T, Mence, Zygarde, and the island guardians (except Lele when outside of TR). It's also a TR attacker that can't be Spored by Amoonguss, and it works as a decent rain check in a pinch. Obviously it hates Fire-types but, at least in the short-term Fire-types aren't as popular/useful as they used to be, so Abomasnow comes out a bit ahead this gen. Idk if this will move beyond Tier 4, but it's definately good enough to be ranked. I have already built a serious team around this mon that has proven to be formidable.
Click to expand...

Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Blizzard
- Wood Hammer
- Ice Shard
- Protect

I'd actually go a step further and be pretty comfortable nomming it to tier 3, as i think abomasnow is a lot better than it was last gen. The above set makes a fearsome TR abuser, and abomasnow wood hammers are monstrous. Notable changes that make it a more effective are:

increased usage of zapdos (heat wave may get popular though)
has a good matchup with all tapus minus lele, who it has a pretty neutral matchup with
walls and demolishes zygarde
Z TR makes trick room a lot easier to set up in general (abomasnow pairs really well with heatproof bronzong)
No talonflame
Fewer fighting types
Mega Salamence is again a thing - 252 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 324-384 (97.8 - 116%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO, meaning you win even if TR isnt up with the hail chip
Solid (though by no means amazing) matchup with snorlax, which is a lot of teams primary TR check right now
 
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Snorlax 2 -> 1

I know qsns already nommed this to 1.5 but it's pretty much a meta-defining mon right now. Pretty much everyone competent knows they need to pack dedicated checks to this mon, and in my experience every semi-TR or full-TR team objectively becomes 150% better when this mon is added.
 
Okii soooooo this is my first "official" Doubles post (tour sign ups don't count)

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Nominating Mega Camerupt Unranked --> Tier 4.

What's the reason?

I've been using Mega Camerupt for a little while since it was released because I wanted to have a mega on my team and been laddering with it for a few days. Well, just like any slow wallbreaker with an awful Speed and impressive Special Attack stat, Mega Camerupt functions very well under Trick Room teams too. Not to mention having a niche thanks to Sheer Force, which boosts its secondary moves by 1.3x, powering up its most notable moves in the format such as Heat Wave, Fire Blast, Earth Power, and Ancient Power. Thanks to Mega Camerupt's Fire / Ground typing, it's able to take on Steel-types such as Celesteela, Heatran, and Aegislash while also being a nice counter to Tapu Koko and Zapdos, sporting an Electric immunity. Mega Camerupt can also utilize Hidden Power Ice and thanks to its Special Attack stat, great in OHKOing Landorus-T and Mega Salamence.

What flaws?

It's ranked low because of its weakness to Ground- and Water-type attacks, which are pretty common in the format, Mega Camerupt requires a lot of support since it's mainly restricted for Trick Room teams because outside of that I don't see any need to use Mega Camerupt. It's kind of an overshadowed Heatran if you know what I mean since they pretty much run a near identical set (and Heatran doesn't take up a mega slot) just the fact that Mega Camerupt has a Ground typing and can also make use of Sheer Force + high Special Attack stat and um utilizing Ancient Power (which I don't see any need to use unless you're scared of Mega Charizard Y for whatever reason).

Well just my thoughts anyway apologies if my post seems unorganized x.x
 
this thread could use some shaking up. new mon noms inbound

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Marshadow --> Tier 1.5
honestly this is the minimum placement that i see this mon ending up in. It singlehandedly brings offense back into the metagame and failure to prepare for this mon will result in absolute destruction. It's effective with or without setup cheese support and has perfect coverage with its STABs.

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Gardevoir-M --> Tier 2
This is again the minimum of where i see gardevoir succeeding this gen. It was absolutely amazing last gen, and although there are a few changes that hurt gardevoir, (pixilate nerf, tapu competition) I see no reason to not fear this mon. its still going to hurt anything that isn't resisted and its tech options are as relevant as ever, especially trick room.

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Lopunny-M --> Tier 3
This is a pokemon that was largely unusable last generation, but it faced fierce competition from a mon whose name is no longer to be spoken. Fighting is a great type, and its got perfect coverage with scrappy. With the inclusion of marshadow, this pokemon is more important than ever due to its good matchup versus it, and its ability as the only usable thing that can fake it out. oh yeah, and fake out. very few things get it at the moment so lopunny won't see much competition with regards to this.

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Gengar-M Tier 1.5 --> Tier 2
I thought this thing was a little overrated in the first place but now it's facing competition with marshadow for the same team slot. and a big selling point is that marshadow doesn't take your mega slot. It's still valueable as something that outspeeds marshadow, and i think that you could even use them together for some success, but in general I think it's going to be less splashable than before.

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Kyurem-B Tier 3 --> Tier 2
See my post in the DPL sets and spreads thread. This pokemon is extremely effective when used as a tank, and it's a lot more splashable than a lot of people give it credit for. this pokemon has the best of all worlds between its great bulk, coverage, power, and speed control. there's no reason not to be using this thing.

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Rain setters Tier 4 --> Tier 3
I think a lot of people are sleeping on rain atm. With all the HO teams running around at the moment, rain is something that needs to be discussed. It's one of the most consistent ways to build a HO team due to Swift Swim giving you a pokemon with doubled speed AND increased power. it can be used with marshadow, and it is effective against it, meaning that it deserves to be a significant part of the metagame at the moment.

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Swampert --> Tier 3
This is related to the last nom because it's one of the most threatening swift swimmers you can see. I know it has already been nommed for four, but i want to see it higher. Mega evolution speed mechanics have really dug this thing out of the gutter this generation, and its coverage is impeccable. also this. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600500773

Other than this, I'm shaky on a ludicolo rise as i think it's not as good as the other two swift swimmers, and i could definitely see if people wanted to argue for porygon2 and/or baby diancie rising, but I don't really feel strongly enough about either of those to nom them myself.
 
supporting any rise in rupt, super cool trick room mega which we've been lacking tbh, gives a shitton of offensive presence which is nice for bronzong variants of fullroom that need to keep momentum flowing. only works on tr and somewhat limited coverage kinda hold it back from being top tier but its still insanely strong and can certainly find a place on the previously popular zonger tr builds
 
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Mimikyu --> UR to Tier 4
One of the best TR setter atm, confusing opp with item option in sash, herb or even googles make stopping this mon from set TR almost impossible w/o lucky guess. Kinda deadweight after TR setted cuz its bad-ish Attack stats is kinda trash, but with the return of fighting mons in the meta -lop n marsh- it can score an ohko with some luck {read: rolls}
 
Apologies for how late this is. A lot of shit has been going on recently. The other unvoted noms will be sent out immediately.

Zapdos 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: the other 5 copy pastes covered it

Kaori: Nah, even as a huge Zapdos advocate it doesn’t take over games in the way a Tier 1 Pokemon should, has enough counterplay in the form of Trick Room, TTar, Snorlax, etc.

MajorBowman: Nah, even as a huge Zapdos advocate it doesn’t take over games in the way a Tier 1 Pokemon should, has enough counterplay in the form of Trick Room, TTar, Snorlax, etc. Also I totally wrote this and sam definitely didn’t

Memoric: Nah, even as a huge Zapdos advocate it doesn’t take over games in the way a Tier 1 Pokemon should, has enough counterplay in the form of Trick Room, TTar, Snorlax, etc.

Qsns: Nah, even as a huge Zapdos advocate it doesn’t take over games in the way a Tier 1 Pokemon should, has enough counterplay in the form of Trick Room, TTar, Snorlax, etc.

shaian:Nah, even as a huge Zapdos advocate it doesn’t take over games in the way a Tier 1 Pokemon should, has enough counterplay in the form of Trick Room, TTar, Snorlax, etc.
Snorlax 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes. on the potential fringe of 1 honestly

Kaori: yea its gud


MajorBowman: Yes, can easily switch in to sponge a hit then start setting up and has stupid longevity with Recycle


Memoric: yes, this is a really huge bitch to deal w/, effective as both a pivot and a wincon : (

Qsns: I made this nom :)

shaian: yeah its good as shit potentially tier 1 depending on how the metagame trends evolve
Ferrothorn 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes about time

Kaori: Yes, Curse is a legit set this gen and the more standard ones are also getting much better as the meta trends away from Fire types


MajorBowman: No, Ferro is good but not that good. Marshadow coming out means a new Fighting type will be around to check it and it still autoloses to any fire attack. Curse is also not that good, its best use is stalling out games with Leech Seed and you have to make sure it’s in prime position to do so

Memoric: the king

Qsns: I made this nom :)

shaian: Yes. fighting types are valuable
Heatran 1.5 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes. Rachi is gone, zard is not as present, and big meta threats (fini, snorlax, and zygarde) all give it a hard time

Kaori: Nah, good fire types are extremely valuable and I think Tran still does enough to warrant 1.5. Incredible range of matchups and Eruption is good as ever.


MajorBowman: Yes, been waiting for this for a while. Heatran has always been so overrated and the meta is not very friendly to it right now

Memoric: this is ungood w/ everything happening in the meta rn

Qsns: kami covered it

shaian: abstain. I think we should start adjusting our heatran sets a bit to fit in with the metagame a bit more.
Kyurem-B 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: Yeah, has more set variety lately and still has nearly unrivaled coverage


MajorBowman: Abstain, I think it’s decent and the AV set is interesting but recent releases (Gardevoir, Marshadow) really hurt it. Would like to see how it adjusts before voting.

Memoric: for the period of the meta before, this is a yes. Still, its place in the meta will be questioned as gard and marsh show up for sure

Qsns: Would not have said yes a month ago but AV Kyube has convinced me - fantastic defensive pivot and still hits pretty hard with no offensive investment.

shaian: yeah until our gardevoir overlords make kyube sit down and stay humble again.
Rotom-H 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Rip in Toast

Kaori: Yeah not entirely sure why this was ever ranked in a format where Zygarde is a Top 10 mon

MajorBowman: No, still has good matchups against top tier mons (heatran, mence, any steel type) and fire type with a ground immunity is a solid niche

Memoric: yah, that way

Qsns: bye

shaian: yeah its a piece of shit
Genesect 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: I’m pretty torn on this one but I’ll lean towards yes, 4x Ice weaks are everywhere and it can run a million different coverage moves to patch holes for different mons. Would put it in a 2.5 if I could.

MajorBowman: No. In a perfect world it’s pretty threatening, but it’s easy to scout since 99% are scarf and when it locks into a move it often leaves itself vulnerable to something already on the field. Coverage is great and hits hard enough to work but not a top tier threat

Memoric: yah, i would like to say that mgar + gene is my invention

Qsns: Scariest scarfer to face for more offensive teams because of its expansive coverage but is able to get out of the way with U-Turn vs bulkier set-up teams so other teammates can pressure more effectively.

shaian: yah, memorics taking credit for my ideas again tho.
Mew UR -> 4
kamikaze: yes

Kaori: I honestly think this should be Tier 3 at this point, my sample team and multiple other teams myself and others have made show off just how valuable the tools Mew has are.

MajorBowman: yeah I didn’t even realize this thing was UR lol

Memoric: i don’t see why not, it’s versatile af and has good utility

Qsns: easy 4, i’d vote for 3, heavy set up meta is the dream for mew

shaian: yeah mew mew :3c
Mega Gengar 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: Yes. Fits on so many teams and can abuse the very bulky metagame that we have by completely controlling your board position from the moment it comes out.

Kaori: I’m not as impressed as most are with this, gonna say no. Still has speed tying issues with Koko, gets donked by Scarf Landorus and Zygarde a little too easily for my comfort, and its lack of bulk makes it much more susceptible to random tech moves

MajorBowman: Y E S

Memoric: fits on so much stuff and all the possibilities you can unlock with trapping is so fun. Really effective at just picking off certain mons and tearing teamslots apart, and it itself is a great attacker that has high speed and good mus versus a lot of stuff such as Tapu Fini, Mega Salamence, Gross, Lele, etc

Qsns: Fantastic support and offensive presence make this an easy 1 for me. Fits on all sorts of teams


shaian: a bit too glass to go to the holy grounds imo
Amoonguss 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: yes

Kaori: Agree, has taken over Jirachi’s role as bet redirector in format, despite the Terrains nerfing Spore redirection will always be one of the best aspects of doubles and this is the best user of it.

MajorBowman: A L S O Y E S

Memoric: aight

Qsns: Best redirector and Spore is still extremely threatening with Lele to switch the terrain (or even without, you still get to neutralize Landos and Zapdos trying to Roost all over your team)

shaian: so ugly u_u (yeah)
Excadrill 4 -> UR
kamikaze: nah

Kaori: no wtf this should be moving up to 3 if anything

MajorBowman: no but it also shouldn’t be 3 wtf sam

Memoric: qsns and kaori are both lames

Qsns: no wtf this should be moving up to 3 if anything

shaian: no dafudge homie
Gyarados 4 -> UR
kamikaze: yes this never should have been ranked to begin with

Kaori: ya

MajorBowman: yeah i was an advocate at first but like why use this when we have landorus ya know?

Memoric: a relic

Qsns: ok actually DD flyinium z has been pretty good. Even though the verdict’s been sealed i’m voting no

shaian:who tf has even seen a gyarados in months?
Linoone 4 -> UR
kamikaze: yes

Kaori: ya

MajorBowman: yes, still has only been used on literally 1 team

Memoric:
is a good song (yes)

Qsns: yeah ok it hasn’t seen a usage spike like i thought it would :(

shaian: have ya’ll seen tron? (yes)
Hoopa-U 1.5 -> 1
Kamikaze: yea the others covered it

Kaori: At this point I’m inclined to agree, TR is probably my favorite archetype in this gen and Hoopa is without a doubt the best setter. Takes over games on its own pretty easily

MajorBowman: yes, it’s the premier trick room setter and is very good at doing its job. It’s hard to deny at least one TR from hoopa, and once TR goes up it’ll start wailing on anything

Memoric: really dominant bitch that, with its thicc spdef, almost always finds a way to take over a game with trick room and dangerous offensive prowess. Can never let your guard down against him

Qsns: It’s the face of all Trick Room archetypes and only really matches up poorly vs. Landorus and the Tapus, slaughtering everything else. Takes advantage of free turns and awkward positions like none other. 1

shaian: ugh i hate this pokemon (yes)
Rotom-W 3 -> 4
kamikaze: yea it hasnt been able to do much

Kaori: I haven’t seen Rotom-W in a hot minute so yeah

MajorBowman: FINE i still like rotom-w and i’ll stand by using it but it probably doesn’t deserve 3 right now. It just doesn’t have the utility it had in gen 6

Memoric: for most purposes, zap or fini are just better lul as long as the meta is fat, slow, and very unfriendly to status

Qsns: why use this when fini exists

shaian: yeah it’s non-existent in games i don’t bring a heatran in
Diancie 4 -> 3
kamikaze: yea diamond storm buff is insane and a staple on fullroom

Kaori: Sure, has a few troubling weaknesses but on fullroom it’s a good setter

MajorBowman: yeah it’s a decent addition to fullroom teams as a setter and diamond storm is just kinda silly, plus it has pretty solid item freedom

Memoric: this is a dangerous boy

Qsns: Strong rock attack that can’t be neutralized by Intimidate is surprisingly threatening and does more work softening up teams for TR sweepers than any other setter bar Hoopa. Rarely gets OHKOd and can run a variety of items on its standard set, giving it a bit of unpredictability (Rockium vs WP are dealt with in very different ways). 3

shaian: fuck yeah dstorms in yo face
Thundurus 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: Yeah this shouldn’t be used on very many teams

MajorBowman: no, still has decent use on certain teams

Memoric: has lost its luster so much, swaggering stuff has given it a niche but for the part of the meta that we’re voting for, this is a UR beast

Qsns: Abstain

shaian: not koko so yeah
Mega Salamence 1 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: Nah, I still think this is the best mega, bulky DD is still a good set and MixMence has a lot of applications

MajorBowman: no, easily top 2 mega and does a ton of damage

Memoric: as much as i dont like mence, i respect it. It’s a dangerous bitch w/ dd or tailwind and is really good at dealing damage

Qsns: Still a great mon, Mixmence is getting worse because of its inability to pressure fat teams but using stuff like Physical TW and Bulky DD is a great way to get around that.

shaian: bad nom lol!
Mega Swampert UR -> 4
kamikaze: Yes it gave new life to rain along with pelipper who is a fantastic eq partner. Being a full on koko counter even out of rain is also a plus

Kaori: Yeah, rain is strong and Pert has its own special Swift Swim mechanics that set it apart from other abusers

MajorBowman: absolutely, the immediate swift swim buff makes it way easier to use than before and it has super good coverage for this meta

Memoric: this is the dagner

Qsns: Great reason to use rain rn, dents a lot of the traditional rain checks that make it easier for a second Swift Swimmer to clean. 4

shaian: the only thing beefier than mega pert is dis dick (yeah)
Mega Abomasnow UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain. Probably usable though

Kaori: Sure, Ice is a good offensive type and Wood Hammer hits Fini pretty hard

MajorBowman: yes for sure, great on hard TR and is even fat enough to take some hits outside TR and do a lot of damage back

Memoric: good mon, ice / grass is a dangerous typing in this land where zap fini is the truth

Qsns: Best Full TR Mega (which seems like a decent archetype atm) definitely warrants a spot in 4.

shaian: yeah ice / grass is fantastic for dealing with a lot of top threats
Tyranitar 1.5 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: Pretty sure we just voted this up, I think it should stay in 1.5

MajorBowman: no, tyranitar is still a super good check to a lot of common stuff and has a lot of sets that have to be managed differently

Memoric: ?

Qsns: Pretty sure we just voted this up, I think it should stay in 1.5

shaian: Pretty sure we just voted this up, I think it should stay in 1.5
Tier 4 4 -> UR
kamikaze: I prefer keeping Tier 4

Kaori: UR, bunch of really niche Pokemon that really shouldn’t be on the mind very often when building teams

MajorBowman: I think keeping tier 4 is a good idea. A lot of the mons in tier 4 are still quite viable and work on the right teams (scrafty, buzzwole, pelipper, porygon-z), and dropping 4 and leaving these mons off the VR sorta implies that they aren’t worth considering at all.

Memoric: i think keeping this is a good idea, just make the message of “THESE ARE NOT SHIT YOU HAVE TO PREP FOR” much more explicit or something. A decent lot of these are honestly still quite respectable and usable

Qsns: I don’t look at tier 4 and see many things I’d want to prep for while making a team. This resource just becomes more cluttered if we have newer players worrying about “threats” they’ll never see in practice.

shaian: yeah fuck 4
Sam’s Username 4 -> Weeb
kamikaze: bring back the schweitzdaddy

Kaori: weeb

MajorBowman: free samvgc

Memoric: lol

Qsns: fuck weebs

shaian: kaori is also a yuri from nichijou

Changes:
Snorlax moves from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
Ferrothorn moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Heatran moves from Tier 1.5 to Tier 2
Kyurem-B moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Rotom-H moves from Tier 4 to UR
Genesect moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Mew moves from UR to 4
Mega Gengar moves from Tier 1.5 to Tier 1
Amoonguss moves from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
Gyarados moves from Tier 4 to UR
Linoone 4 -> UR
Hoopa-U 1.5 -> 1
Rotom-W 3 -> 4
Diancie 4 -> 3
Thundurus 4 -> UR
Mega Swampert UR -> 4
Mega Abomasnow UR -> 4
miltankmilk moves from UR to VR Council
 
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I got a few noms

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Milotic -> tier 3
Support set is outclassed by Tapu Fini most of the time and it hardly ever sees usage, while Coil Milo is harder to use now with Marshadow and it needs a decent amount of support to work

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Regular Metagross -> UR
Haven't seen this thing in forever and it was really only good for beating Jirachi and Heatran (kinda) with Groundium Z while checking Tapu Lele. There just isnt really a good reason to use this on most teams over Aegislash or Ferrothorn.

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Sylveon -> UR
Also haven't seen this thing in forever and with the addition of Gardevoir this thing gets even worse. As an offensive fairy Tapu Lele or Gardevoir work better and on most teams it feels like it doesnt add much with the Tapus.

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Azumarill -> Tier 3
This mon also doesnt get a ton of usage largely because it is so much harder to setup than it was in ORAS or even earlier in the meta with Kangaskhan and Jirachi. Amoonguss has more common weaknesses and there aren't really any other Fake Out users besides Scrafty to help this thing. It still hates psychic-terrain and even its water+fairy typing can kinda be outclassed by Tapu Fini
 
Mishimono said:
I got a few noms

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Milotic -> tier 3
Support set is outclassed by Tapu Fini most of the time and it hardly ever sees usage, while Coil Milo is harder to use now with Marshadow and it needs a decent amount of support to work

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Regular Metagross -> UR
Haven't seen this thing in forever and it was really only good for beating Jirachi and Heatran (kinda) with Groundium Z while checking Tapu Lele. There just isnt really a good reason to use this on most teams over Aegislash or Ferrothorn.

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Sylveon -> UR
Also haven't seen this thing in forever and with the addition of Gardevoir this thing gets even worse. As an offensive fairy Tapu Lele or Gardevoir work better and on most teams it feels like it doesnt add much with the Tapus.

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Azumarill -> Tier 3
This mon also doesnt get a ton of usage largely because it is so much harder to setup than it was in ORAS or even earlier in the meta with Kangaskhan and Jirachi. Amoonguss has more common weaknesses and there aren't really any other Fake Out users besides Scrafty to help this thing. It still hates psychic-terrain and even its water+fairy typing can kinda be outclassed by Tapu Fini
Click to expand...


coil milotic is bad, and this is coming from the guy that is doing milotic's analysis, but the normal set is still okay in my opinion, and competitive is a very valuable ability to have. but yeah i would still support milotic going to 3
 
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Mega Tar --> UR to Tier 2
This mon is really good and im surprised it isnt ranked. Has good matchups vs quite a few good megas, notably mence and gengar. It had ridiculous stats, super attack and great bulk boosted by its own sandstorm. After a DD it outspeeds base 130s and can often set up pretty easily. I dont find myself using dd much over just getting damage with rock slide but it can sweep teams with just one boost.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-604696073

Id even say 1.5 but i think for the moment 2 is good enough for it
 
All but 1 nom caught up on VR
Snorlax 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: Yes its def at 1. Probably the best setup pokemon in the metagame right now and easy to put on teams. Curse sets up so easily without much support and BD is extremely scary if given ample support or right opportunity.

Kaori: Yeah, it defines the current meta pretty hard and you absolutely need to pack multiple checks to it

MajorBowman: this one feels really weird to me. It’s super threatening and can win games on its own but at the same time it has a lot of pretty simple counterplay that i still don’t think people are utilizing. Voting no on principle just because i don’t think it should really be winning as much as it is

Memoric: yes, this thing is a huge bitch and can just take over games on its own, bulk is absurd and it can boost 4 days. Extremely solid wincon and its high bulk also lends it utility in pivoting on stuff. Versatile and quite powerful.

miltankmilk: 1: has defined the metagame lately, curse lax is obviously a really solid win condition and BD lax is lowkey super scary with a little help from either veil or redirection.

Qsns: 1, metagame defining threat that doesn’t require much support to absolutely dominate a game. I agree w bowman that counterplay isn’t being utilized enough

shaian:1 Yeah, it defines the current meta pretty hard and you absolutely need to pack multiple checks to it like high jump kick lopunny
Mega Camerupt UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: yeah sure

MajorBowman: I only see camerupt as an inferior choice to a lot of other megas on fullroom so I’m going with no

Memoric: it’s about that action

miltankmilk: Good fullroom mega but never gonna be higher than 4.

Qsns: 4, insanely hard to wall and gets around the TR vs Amoonguss problem very well. Decent mon

shaian:abstain
Marshadow UR -> Ranked
kamikaze: 1.5 . I am a little uneasy about pushing it further to 1 just like miltankmilk said with all the fairies and how its sometimes hindered by 4 move slot syndrome.

Kaori: 1 but I personally think it’s super dumb and the tier would be better without it

MajorBowman: 1.5 for sure. Super strong and super good coverage, but suffers pretty badly from 4MSS and doesn’t have the bulk to stick around and take more than a couple KOs in a game, especially with life orb and CC defense drops.

Memoric: 1.5. REALLY OFFENSIVE AF and just really dangerous in general. High speed and premier offensive coverage + ability to blow back set-up mons not named Snorlax (which gets CC’d) with Spectral make it really good at pressuring a lot of slower builds. Really strong and both 3rd move options are fire, HP Ice gets quicker kills while Sneak guarantees some stuff doesn’t happen (both are boosted by Tech too :100:). Something to watch out for fosho, and it would be of no surprise to me if this somehow rises to tier 1 (which im hesitant to put in rn considering it’s new and it hasn’t totally stolen the spotlight yet for me to consider putting it there so soon)

miltankmilk: 1.5 This pokemon is really strong and offensively checks a lot of pokemon. I’m hesitant to put it in tier 1 because of how common Fairy-types are as well as how it basically has to pick between beating Gengar and beating Salamence, both of which otherwise beat it. Really solid mon but gonna go with 1.5 for now.

Qsns: 1, marshadium z basically guarantees a kill providing TR isn’t up, offensively pressures the majority of the metagame even after using the z move and its bulk is surprisingly good for an strong, fast attacker. Sneak gives it great utility even if speed control isn’t on your side, making it an extremely flexible pokemon that works well in every stage of the match. I think saying it has 4MSS is really overrating how much you need HP Ice considering none of the things it’d use HP Ice on can switch in on spectral thief + z move.

shaian:1 but I personally think it’s super dumb and the tier would be better without it
Mega Gardevoir UR -> Ranked
kamikaze: 2. This mon is fantastic just like last gen and I can see it rising further but I think 2 is pretty safe for initial tiering.

Kaori: 2, still a really good mega, requires better teambuilding than most Megas do but that’s not necessarily a negative. I want to give mega gardevoir the d

MajorBowman: 2. I think people are trying to recreate the best Garde teams from ORAS right now and I’m not sure that’s necessarily the best way to use Garde. Once we start figuring out Garde teambuilding I think it could rise but 2 is a good place for now.

Memoric: 2. Can easily rise to 1.5 for sure im REALLY liking this thing personally. Really fun beatstick to play w/, fun to build with too. Strong spread fairy type attacks are dangerous af, having versatility in sets is a plus. Let’s see how the meta goes but mgard’s strong for sure

miltankmilk: 2, I’ve seen this mon put in a lot of work in the early stages of its metagame but 1.5 is a little steep for initial placement. I can see it moving up as it cements itself in the meta but it doesn’t have the immediate impact marshadow has.

Qsns: 1.5. Idk what y’all are talking about the old ORAS builds are stupid good and don’t need much updating to trash current archetypes.

shaian:2 I think people are trying to recreate the best Garde teams from ORAS right now and I’m not sure that’s necessarily the best way to use Garde. Once we start figuring out Garde teambuilding I think it could rise but 2 is a good place for now.
Mega Lopunny UR -> Tier 3
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: 4, has enough memes to keep it afloat but honestly it will never stop being a poor man’s Kanga, just never really seems threatening enough. Gots curves for dayz tho

MajorBowman: Going with 3 on this one, I think calling it poor man’s kanga is kinda naive because it does a lot of things differently than kang. Its damage output is a little disappointing at times but the speed is really good and Scrappy is pretty underrated imo

Memoric: not 3 lul. 4 is a aight placement consdiring its speed and ability to hit a lot of stuff for dcent damage. Can easily fall out.

miltankmilk: 4

Qsns: abstain

shaian: 4 fast encore and lax check = pretty useful
Mega Gengar 1 -> 2
kamikaze: 1. We just voted this up to 1 and my opinion stands the same.

Kaori: 1.5 imotbh but yeah 2 would be a bit absurd since we just voted it up

MajorBowman: whose head am i scalping

Memoric: ???

miltankmilk: ?????????? Absolutely not

Qsns: wtf hashtag

shaian:>milktankmilk tier nom
Pelipper 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Yes this mon gave new life to rain. Having both tailwind, an EQ immune partner for swampert, flying stab, and a rain setter all in one package allowed rain to converge a lot of roles and paved the way for less restrictive teambuilding on rain compositions. Flying stab in particular is a very big deal because it allows it to hit grass types which annoy rain as well as not be a sitting duck vs opposing waters, unlike its amphibious brethren

Kaori: i fucking hate this pokemon and its dumb face but yeah its pretty good

MajorBowman: yeah pretty much 100% agree with kamikaze, swampert being released makes pelipper even more valuable to rain, and rain becomes a stronger archetype overall. Pelipper has a lot of tools and 3 is a good spot for it

Memoric: ye. rain is p good, has good support options and can do more stuff than toed.

miltankmilk: Yeah rain is hot, Garde/Pert/Marsh all can fit well on rain and make these mons even better.

Qsns: 3, rain is the best it’s been in a while due to this and pert. Max spa hurricanes and hydros hit pretty hard from this and WG/U-turn/TW are all fantastic support moves that keep it relevant even if it can’t dent much on the field.

shaian:yes
Politoed 4 -> 3
kamikaze: 4. Last gen I found that Politoed was solely there to provide rain and it felt like playing with 5 pokemon at times due to it lacking much qualities to help rain teams besides setting rain. This gen that didnt change much and most Mega Swampert teams I see have Pelipper. Helping Hand with Kingdra is good dont get me wrong but it lacks the significant qualities that Pelipper has which I mentioned above and often stacks rain team weaknesses upon itself.

Kaori: i’m behind putting it to 3, the extra bulk you gain from toed over pelipper is really valuable to me and it has a lot more support options going for it

MajorBowman: While politoed does have a few advantages over pelipper, I think it’s still pretty underwhelming as anything other than a rain bot and pelipper is generally a better choice. 4.

Memoric: 4, doesn’t do as much as lip rly but its own qualities are still useful enuf.

miltankmilk: 4. Rain is hot but this mon didnt get better with anything. You can’t EQ next to it and it doesnt Tailwind. Echoing what kami said about it being like half a pokemon.

Qsns: honestly i want to see toed unranked, HH and Encore isn’t enough to make it a superior choice to pelipper on almost any team.

shaian:no
Mega Swampert 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Yes. Koko counter and great Stabs and coverage. Water is a fantastic offense type at the moment.

Kaori: yeah im behind it, rain is gud

MajorBowman: yes, very strong and a lot better than in ORAS

Memoric: he’s is a bigger bitch than i thought he’d be, im impressed

miltankmilk: Yes, big pert is v strong and rain is good. Don’t nom him higher than 3 tho

Qsns: 3, this tier has no good checks to this besides tapu fini and pelipper’s existence makes this wayyy better

shaian:yes
Mimikyu UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

Kaori: uh i guess

MajorBowman: sure i guess? I think it’s a really bad mon but it does get TR up pretty reliably so that’s valuable i guess

Memoric: why was this ur, sure lol

miltankmilk: Yes, it’s about as reliable a TR setter as you can find even if its utility outside that isn’t great. Fits well on fullroom, tier 4 is a fine spot.

Qsns: abstain

shaian:yes
Milotic 2 -> 3
kamikaze: No. coil Hypno is absurdly threatening and something you are forced to respect. I know Marshadow exists now but I dont think that discourages this mon enough from Tier 2

Kaori: yeah i don’t think it’s exceptional outside of the coil set and marshadow dunks on that really hard

MajorBowman: yes, pretty underwhelming in whatever role you try to give it and coil is overhyped and not very good

Memoric: hell yeah, coil was dangerous but now marsh exsists : ( also all its set just dont seem to compare with whatever else is in 2

miltankmilk: yes, I think 2 was high for it at its best and I don’t see the recent meta shifts improving its viability.

Qsns: 3, i should have nommed this a while ago. Overrated mon that does nothing and coil is now a joke in front of marshadow

shaian: yeah coil and hypnosis is literallly all it does in 2017 and that gets owned by :specific pokemon that owns this:
Regular Metagross 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Yea it can go

Kaori: yea

MajorBowman: yeah bye

Memoric: this shoulda been out YEARS ago

miltankmilk: yes, i finally concede this mon has no use anymore.

Qsns: fine

shaian: this pokemon is ugly (yes)
Sylveon 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Yes noone is bothering to use this

Kaori: yea

MajorBowman: yeah bye

Memoric: what’s this lol

miltankmilk: yes

Qsns: ur

shaian: Yes noone is bothering to use this
Azumarill 2 -> 3
kamikaze: Yes havent seen it in awhile. Its definitely something that may be worth looking into again though

Kaori: yeah there’s far better water types and even better water/fairy’s now

MajorBowman: agree with kamikaze that it isn’t in a great spot right now but could potentially make a comeback. After jirachi got the boot everyone just gave up on azu too but it may be worth saving. 3 for now.

Memoric: haven’t seen one in years ngl

miltankmilk: yeah, haven’t seen this boy used in a long time there are a lot more reliable setup mons

Qsns: 2, still insanely threatening and i’m surprised we’re seeing less of it in the face of a bulky metagame. More amoonguss being used sucks but this should really be higher in usage.

shaian: Yes havent seen it in awhile. Its definitely something that may be worth looking into again though

Changes:
Snorlax 1.5 -> 1
Mega Camerupt UR -> 4
Marshadow UR -> 1.5
Mega Gardevoir UR -> 2
Mega Lopunny UR -> 4
Pelipper 4 -> 3
Mega Swampert 4 -> 3
Mimikyu UR -> 4
Milotic 2 -> 3
Regular Metagross 4 -> UR
Sylveon 4 -> UR
Azumarill 2 -> 3
 
As a sort of compromise between the VR Council members that wanted to abolish Tier 4 and those that wanted to save it, we decided to go through each Pokemon in the tier and vote on whether they should remain Tier 4 or drop to UR. There are 7 VR Council members, so we just went with a simple majority. We also agreed that Mew was potentially deserving of Tier 3, so we included an option to vote 3, 4, or UR for Mew.

At the suggestion of Checkmater, there is also a new rule for Pokemon moving from UR to Tier 4. A Pokemon must receive at least 3 votes of "yes" in order to be added to Tier 4 after not previously being on the list. This prevents situations such as 4 council members abstaining, 2 voting yes, and one voting no, and the Pokemon ending up on the VR. This is being implemented in order to keep Tier 4 from getting clogged and messy again.

JiTLC1z.png
Results:
4 -> 3 Mew
Remain 4 Mega Abomasnow, Mega Camerupt, Cresselia, Excadrill, Mega Lopunny, Ludicolo, Politoed, Porygon2, Porygon-Z, Scrafty, Thundurus-T, and Victini
4 -> UR Araquanid, Buzzwole, Gastrodon, Mega Gyarados, Kartana, Landorus-I, Mamoswine, Marowak-A, Mimikyu, Muk-A, Rotom-W, Suicune, and Weavile

If you disagree with any of these changes, you are free to post in this thread to re-nominate something back onto the VR. Please just keep in mind that since we just voted on these Pokemon, you'll need some pretty strong evidence to convince us to change our minds. Replays and damage calculations are encouraged.

Thanks!
 
AuraRayquaza said:
tyranitar-mega.gif

Mega Tar --> UR to Tier 2
This mon is really good and im surprised it isnt ranked. Has good matchups vs quite a few good megas, notably mence and gengar. It had ridiculous stats, super attack and great bulk boosted by its own sandstorm. After a DD it outspeeds base 130s and can often set up pretty easily. I dont find myself using dd much over just getting damage with rock slide but it can sweep teams with just one boost.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-604696073

Id even say 1.5 but i think for the moment 2 is good enough for it
Click to expand...
Echoing this nom. A x4 fighting weakness this gen is easily countered by running a fast Fairy-type (scarf Lele has especially great synergy). As long as you build around its crippling fighting weakness, Mega TTar boasts base defensive stats consisting of 100 HP, 150 Defense, and 120 Special Defense boosted by sand. Meanwhile, it has a base 164 Attack stat and pretty solid coverage with Dark / Rock STABs. Dragon Dance allows it to compensate for incoming Intimidate users and faster attackers. Amoonguss has nearly perfect synergy with TTar as a redirector, and it is a legitimate challenge to be able to deal with an opposing TTar + Amoonguss on the battlefield. On top of all this, TTar serves as a solid check to opposing weather. While not a flawless mon, Mega TTar is a really scary threat when your team isn't ready to deal with it swiftly.

E: My OP didn't get the special def + sand mechanics quite right, so i re-worded it
 
Last edited:
GenOne said:
Mega TTar boasts base defensive stats consisting of 100 HP, 150 Defense, and an effective 180 Special Defense under sand (120 * 1.5)
Click to expand...

Thats actually not how base stat totals work, 120 base special defense in sand for a rock is equivalent to 189 base special defense outside of sand, so its even slightly better.

I think an important point in discussing why mega tar over regular tyranitar, in addition to the modest increase in bulk and damage, is the slight increase in speed, which is really nice when dragon dancing. Regular tyranitar fails to outspeed mega mence at +1, whereas mega tar outspeeds mega gengar and tapu koko. Given how populated the 372 (mence and skymin), 383 (marshadow) and 394 (koko and m-gengar) are this generation compared to last when all of these mons were either banned, non existant or just much less relevant, I feel that the speed is a huge perk and really the main reason to commit to letting tyranitar take your mega slot.
 
Ninetales-A Tier 3 -> Tier 4

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Give me likes
 
Level 51 said:
Ninetales-A Tier 3 -> Tier 4

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Give me likes
Click to expand...

...Is that Latin or am I just losing all control?
 
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