SmashPass

[666lumberjack]

As I mentioned before, Hitmonlee is a great recipient because the only thing he doesn't outrun he can nail with Mach Punch. Also, he doesn't really need mixed coverage when he has the power to 2HKO some Deoxys-D with HJK after SR and 1 Layer of Spikes. Reckless is really ridiculous. It's only problem is fragility.
Anyone else found Honchkrow insanely strong versus an offensive team? All it has to do is kill something and then it can mindlessly plough through the team with sucker punch, getting stronger and stronger. +3 Sucker Punch OHKO's Kyurem, which is the bulkiest thing in my team. It's probably partially just the fact that I missed moxie and let it get +2 though.

 

[Nubagator]

Smash pass is not broken. I thought so previously because on the ladder, you won at least 70% of the time. I was playing good people as well, with my ranking in the top 50 and my points set to only 100 difference when finding battles. I understand now that this was not due to smashpass's brokeness. It was because we are playing in an extremely early point in the metagame. The reason it's so challenging to beat is because people aren't prepared. We haven't tested every poke, we don't know for sure how to beat it. And yes while a counter may be slightly unconventional it dosn't mean it's bad by any means. I was testing my lolzy hail stall team today, and while it may not have done an amazing job on the ladder as a whole, I almost never lost Smashpass. After SDS posted this threadmost SP teams look the same. A great check is restalk cune with roar. I utalized it as a phazer to rack up hazard damage, and at the same time counter SP teams. Since it had a purpose on my team, it really wasn't an obscure strech to use. Granted not many fast offensive teams will want to use a slow bulky poke, so think outside the box. I find Crobat with infulltrator works wonders. You beat uxie before it gets both screens up. Another stop to SP teams is taunt. A moderately quick taunter shuts SP teams down. I don't think anything should get the ban just yet, and definently not Smash Pass

 

[Green Dragonite]

Mew has been helping me interfere with this strategy. I'm thinking I may want to switch to Baton Pass Mew to see if I can successfully stop Smashpassers and get some momentum going my way with the same switch in.

 

[Choice Socks]

I have seen so many carbon copies of SDS's team on the ladder today. Haze Milotic is a great counter to the whole tactic. She's is who I've been using, in conjunction with a fast taunter, and it completely shuts the opposing team down.

 

[Erazor]

Toxic Spikes absolutely ruins this team, but apart from that and Haze Milotic, not much stops it. I've seen Dragon Tail Nidoqueen that can also end the smashing chain if you don't have a Substitute.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Also, a lot of people are taking from this that "my cookie cutter team" is very beatable, which of course it is if you go out of your way to counter it (which wouldn't be a bad idea given its notoriety). The problem is that there are any one of a number of potential things that can completely screw up the "standard" ways to stop the strategy. Not using Uxie but instead using Taunt Azelf as the lead makes it VERY hard to say "oh just get your taunter in on Uxie" because Azelf will make sure that your taunter needs to actually come in as Gorebyss smashes. Using Smeargle ups the speed your Taunter needs to be at to 274. Passing to Espeon or Octillery means that Roar stops being effective (and Octillery eats most current phazers anyway). The only real thing you can do against it is Haze, but forcing every team to carry Haze on something defensive is a terrible effect on the metagame.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

This shit's good up even in ubers, if it has such a negative impact on the metagame as SDS is suggesting (all teams must carry haze, due to the vast amount of variations and there only being one hard counter), then it has to go.

 

[SupremeDirt]

I'm actually considering setting some time aside and qualifying for UU voting just to nominate Gorebyss/Huntail.

 

[Thorhammer]

Also, a lot of people are taking from this that "my cookie cutter team" is very beatable, which of course it is if you go out of your way to counter it (which wouldn't be a bad idea given its notoriety). The problem is that there are any one of a number of potential things that can completely screw up the "standard" ways to stop the strategy. Not using Uxie but instead using Taunt Azelf as the lead makes it VERY hard to say "oh just get your taunter in on Uxie" because Azelf will make sure that your taunter needs to actually come in as Gorebyss smashes. Using Smeargle ups the speed your Taunter needs to be at to 274. Passing to Espeon or Octillery means that Roar stops being effective (and Octillery eats most current phazers anyway). The only real thing you can do against it is Haze, but forcing every team to carry Haze on something defensive is a terrible effect on the metagame.

There are plenty of ways to shut down this team and variations without Haze. Mew, for one. I'm not sure what Azelf's last move would be, but it shouldn't be able to do much to Mew. Even Taunt wouldn't be effective, logistically. If Mew switches in on Azelf's first screen and uses Taunt, Azelf will be screwed unless it uses Taunt itself. In Gen 5, Taunt always lasts exactly three turns. The turn Taunt is used is the first turn. Azelf then sets up the second screen, that's the second turn. Azelf switches, uses U-Turn, Explosion, whatever. That's the third turn, so Taunt wears off just in time for Mew to Taunt the still-slow Gorebyss. Plenty of other Pokemon can stop the setup the same way.

Now, of course, there are other ways the scenario could happen. Azelf could stick around and wait for the first Taunt to wear off to Taunt Mew again... getting hit three or four times in the process. Even with screens, that's going to hurt. And once Gorebyss comes in after that, she'll only have two turns left with the first screen. Azelf making its exit with Explosion could cause problems for non-bulky Pokemon, but it can cause just as many problems for the Shell Smash team itself.

Shell Smash + Baton Pass is a good strategy. Just good. It's completely possible to stop if a team is prepared, and there are enough ways to prepare that preparing is completely reasonable to expect of a team. Will it remain a top-tier strategy in spite of all of this? Almost certainly. It will win matches, and people will find ways to make it work. But at present, it does not appear to be anywhere close to broken.

 

[Gerard]

Espeon doesn't get stored power thanks to all evees being males so it' more powerful tools is cutted, then xatu isn't as powerfull, and as an even worst one, none of it's movepool gets focus blast so they ave to get HP fighting for dak pokes (altough signal beam might be an option but come on), and magic coat stops taunts and spore, aerodactyl is fast enough, Dragon Tail is unreflectable and makes you use a sub so you have to actually use a sub and you can use something to make the sub disapear you can even u-turn the turn they memento and send a still powerfull sweper, can smeargle survive 2 mach punchs(one breaks the sash)?, can gorebyss survive thunderbolt from jolteon? stuff like that not that weird fits perfectly in most teams

While it's a hard strategy to perfectly prepare for it's so predictable that when your have the screens up and your poke goes away you can use T-wave and he is half dead, you can use Crocune and begin to set-up, you get 2 CM before passing and when stuff like Kyurem is banned you'll see that it's not as broken as it may be (some roarers hae dragon tail or whirlwind, this makes them harder to predict), you could also, you know, change the poke the after uxie just set the screens and is ready to memento, then you whirlwind gore and begin to set-up, you can even set full hazzards or toxic spikes and just wait, there are a lot of ways around it, and only when played pefectly is gonna be a clean sweep

 

[Vladimir]

With Suicune, Empoleon, and other bulky Water-types with access to Roar/ DragonTail in UU, SS BP will never dominate the tier. It's a strategy that needs plenty of turns to be set-up, much more than, say, Swords Dance, without guaranteeing a sweep.

Also, you needn't always think of ways to "stop" a strategy. Executing your own strategy b4 the opponent is a foolproof plan to win. F.e., the team in the OP can be easily beaten by setting up on Uxie - and if the lead of choice is Azelf, then this can be overcome by OHKOing Azelf with a Scarfer or something. That is, of course, only if you don't want to put Roar Suicune on your team, which is a poke with amazing utility in UU.

Wait till the tiers settle. If people still think it's broken after they've discovered all the ways this can be dealt with (like QD Liligant, or Toxic Spikes), then and only then ban it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Roarcune is all well and good until you face someone with SS / BP / Taunt / Spore Smeargle to pass. Sure it loses to priority, but really, if your opponent's answer to SmashPass is priority, you're better off passing with Gorebyss.

 

[Marioman07]

Lol i fought seven deadly sins with him using this team, whatta coincidence! But seriously, for people like me that are somewhat competitive and somewhat casual, this strategy is freaking broken. I don't want to pack a certain pokemon to beat it unless i want to use that certain pokemon. (P.S my PO is jomama0723)

 

[Avira]

SmashPass is weaker in UU than it is in OU, and even in OU, it's not broken. As jabba has already mentioned, the recipients just aren't good enough.

 

[alphatron]

Tangrowth used Power Swap!

 

[Gerard]

Again, Magic coat smeargle's obvious spore, xatu is an awesome counter with whirwind and inmunity to status, and unless Gorebyss has ice beam (no one has it) it will never do enough damage even at +2, if you try to whirlwind and he gets to espeon he can always come since he ressists both Hp fighting and Psyquic, snorlax is a great counter to the special ones and it gets some of its curses up while in it, if smeragle has sub then he doesn't have sash so he's dead for anything, again, good strategy, not broken, when the hype dies, it might become better, now everyone knows it exists (on PO i used it to a great succes in DW UU but there espeon has stored power and better options like metagross and scragy)

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

SmashPass is weaker in UU than it is in OU, and even in OU, it's not broken. As jabba has already mentioned, the recipients just aren't good enough.

That's laughable and we both know it. Mamoswine is one of the most lethal things in the tier after it gets a Smash, and essentially OHKOs the tier outside of Suicune after said Smash (and all it needs is a flinch with Icicle Crash to do enough damage to 2HKO Suicune, so that's a 27% chance of sweeping even if Mamo ends up heads up against Suicune. Heracross is even better, capable of OHKOing Suicune with an Insect Plate Megahorn or Fist Plate Close Combat at least 50% of the time after Stealth Rock. The only issue for Heracross is Dusclops, and it still has to deal with +2 Night Slash, especially since its only form of offense is Night Shade, a 4HKO (301 base life is funsies), or to Burn it, which activates Guts and results in your team dying even faster. Hell, Electivire can go mixed and be ridiculously lethal, since it's capable of OHKOing basically everything at +2 with an Expert Belt. Cross Chop and 40 Atk OHKOs Eviolite Chansey after SR, Thunderbolt OHKOs Suicune (the most defensive Water-type), and then you've got Flamethrower and either Ice Punch or HP Ice to deal with Ground-types. In all honesty, there's no shortage of lethal pass recipients in UU.

Honestly, Dusclops is the most threatening thing for SmashPass, and even then its not guaranteed in the slightest.

 

[Virizion]

That's laughable and we both know it. Mamoswine is one of the most lethal things in the tier after it gets a Smash, and essentially OHKOs the tier outside of Suicune after said Smash (and all it needs is a flinch with Icicle Crash to do enough damage to 2HKO Suicune, so that's a 27% chance of sweeping even if Mamo ends up heads up against Suicune. Heracross is even better, capable of OHKOing Suicune with an Insect Plate Megahorn or Fist Plate Close Combat at least 50% of the time after Stealth Rock. The only issue for Heracross is Dusclops, and it still has to deal with +2 Night Slash, especially since its only form of offense is Night Shade, a 4HKO (301 base life is funsies), or to Burn it, which activates Guts and results in your team dying even faster. Hell, Electivire can go mixed and be ridiculously lethal, since it's capable of OHKOing basically everything at +2 with an Expert Belt. Cross Chop and 40 Atk OHKOs Eviolite Chansey after SR, Thunderbolt OHKOs Suicune (the most defensive Water-type), and then you've got Flamethrower and either Ice Punch or HP Ice to deal with Ground-types. In all honesty, there's no shortage of lethal pass recipients in UU.

The Plates are actual viable items..? Are they better than Silverpowder and Black Belt (Bug- and Fighting-type variants of Silk-Scarf)

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

They're equal (20% boost)

Then again, they probably aren't actually "gettable" in Generation 5, so just pretend I said Black Belt and Silverpowder.

 

[Arcanite]

Undella Ruins, you can get the plates.

 

[alphatron]

You can get all of the plates (save for draco, which is found elsewhere) by diving in the undella ruins and exploring before the torrent forces you out.

Mixed Nidoking seems like a great recipient for this. Immune to toxic and thunderwave. Immune to electric and nuetral to grass. Resistant to fighting if you're using smeargle to pass. Then again, I'm pretty sure others have mentioned this. With 88 Atk Evs and a nuetral nature, LO sheer force boosted +2 poison jab 2HKOs 252/252 Bold Chansey.

Ninjask'd

 

[a fairy]

itt: SDS makes Taunt one of the most popular moves

 

[Virizion]

itt: SDS makes Taunt one of the most popular moves

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as Taunt is a very good move in itself.

 

[a fairy]

I'm just commenting how 1 freaking team can change a tier.

Didn't KG's stall team do the same?

 

[Thorhammer]

Taunt, phazing, Trick, Encore, Mach Punch... something. Just pick a solution and use it.