Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - November 2008

Something else I forgot to mention about Skarmory, the criticizer seems to believe Skarmory can only come in on CB'd neutral or super-effective hits and therefore being "unable to counter" those said CB Pokemon.
 
Snorlax: One COULD argue that Fire Punch on a Curse Lax does a lot to Skarm, or it could EQ while Roosting, but for the most part, Skarm is generally able to phaze the fat man, and be on his merry way. Six.
CB LAX!

CB Fire Punch does a lot, and CB Self Destruct's a OHKO with SR down.
 
Skarm isn't the titan it was in Advance, but it still works well in today's metagame. Maybe because I run a lot of Sp.Defence EV's, but I can use it without thinking it loses to everything out there.
 
Skarm is still good and CAN setup Spikes with extreme ease which is the main reason to use it anyway.

And lol I can't undestand everyone saying it can't wall CBTar... It's not like you will be spamming Stone Edge everytime and Skarm still walls 3/4 of your moveset taking none/minimal damage... Not to mention anyone can run, say, 32 Spe EVs to and Roost first ?
 
CB LAX!

CB Fire Punch does a lot, and CB Self Destruct's a OHKO with SR down.
Even if it was a 2HKO (which it isn't) They would just fucking switch out then set up as you switch. Hardly worth the effort if you ask me, basically a moot point when only 18% of Snorlax use CB.
 
18% is nothing to scoff at to be honest. If 1 in 5 Snorlax that I meet will have the Choice Band, that is certainly something that I will be factoring into my thinking when I see one. Sure CBLax is a poor answer to Skarmory. Also yeah sure you're allowed to swear on these boards but don't go over the top seriously, this is merely a discussion of the Pokemon Skarmory, hardly something to go tearing your hair out about mate.
 

Chou Toshio

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Well all those scarf flygons running around are not going to have fun letting skarmory set up spikes each time they come in (and don't U-Turn). Skarmory lols at Fire Punch as well even if they predict (though I guess they could use fire blast but . . .).

Granted in early game they'll probably U-Turn all the time . . .

. . . ok bad example sorta . . .
 

cim

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Shed Shell Skarmory is 2HKOed about 1 in 5 times by Flygon's Choice Band Fire Punch with Stealth Rock in play.
 

cim

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I wasn't trying to hate Skarmory, I was making a correction about someone who claimed Fire Punch Flygon could never 2hko.
 

panamaxis

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RLY LONG POST AHEAD:

Now, it'd just be stupid to say something like, "it di3s to thunerbawlt n phi3r blasts". That's obvious. If you have the patience to read through this ENTIRE analysis of Skarmory's abilities, you might find that I'm right. And if you disagree, that's fine, but it's something I've thought about for a while now, and think it's time I at least got word out.

Now, when something is sent to Underused or Borderline, it's for a myriad of possibilities. The first and foremost obvious one: viability in standard play. Ripping it from Smogon, here's the latest listing in OU.

1 vs. 1 matchups in OU

Aerodactyl
Breloom
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Forretress
Gallade
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Kingdra
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Ninjask
Salamence
Scizor
Snorlax
Swampert
Tyranitar
Weavile

There, now all we have left are the walls, the physical attackers, those with the potential to run mixed sets, and Magnezone. Let's analyze a matchup of Skarmory versus everything on that list, shall we?


Aerodactyl: Skarmory can take on Aerodactyl with relative safety, the only possible danger being a CB Fire Fang, or a Life Orb'd Fire Blast, but since the majority are suicide leads, we'll assume Skarmory is okay, as far as walling. However, it gets taunted, and can't kill Aero off swiftly without Steel Wing, which is also rare on the majority of Skarmory sets, as most run Drill Peck, Roost, Spikes, and Whirlwind. Skarmory walls aerodactyl to no end. 1 for Skarmory (even CB fire fang doesn't do enough).

Breloom: Drill Peck is the only worry for the mushroom warrior, and all it has to do is use it for a Spore shot, get a sub up, and start firing off those Focus Punches. Despite it's wallish nature, and Skarmory's high defense, Focus Punch from Breloom is often a 2-3KO, which isn't ideal.
Skarmory beats this one on one if something is asleep. Come in on the sub, drill peck and roost up as they switch. Another point to skarmory.
Donphan: Skarmory can't touch Donphan, while Donphan comfortably will Rapid Spin the Spikes away all day. Donphan, given isn't doing a heck of a lot back, but if it's spinning, it's serving it's purpose.
Skarmory sets up one layer of spikes and then switches to a ghost (skarm will pretty much always be used with a ghost) so skarm will beat donphan anyway even if it doesn't get spikes up with drill peck alone. 3-0 skarm
Dragonite: Dragon Dance is the most common set for Nite, and a good one it is, because after one DD, Fire Punch 2KO's the tin bird. All it can do in retaliation, is Whirlwind it out, hope something comes out that it can grab a free Roost on. Consider garchomps +2 fire fang does like 58%ish I'm not to sure that dragonites +1 fire punch will 2HKO but i may be wrong so I'm not counting this as a point for skarm. 3-1

Dugtrio: Skarm isn't worried an awful lot about Dugtrio, so I can say that Skarmory can counter him effectively, since he doesn't get trapped by Arena Trap. That's one for Skarm. 4-1 skarm

Dusknoir: I can really just say Fire Punch a lot, but here, Dusknoir packs it commonly, to deal with the spins he blocks from Forry, and the ever common Bullet Punching Scizor. Skarmory won't be 2KO'd, but being crippled by Will O' Wisp, and slammed with Fire Punch is not worth setting up your Spikes, especially since you run the risk of eliminating your physical wall, something that isn't encouraged.
You have obviously never used skarmory before. Skarm should NOT be your physical wall it should be their solely to spike and block a few threats (it is not an all purpose physical wall anymore). Skarm can spike and roost up and its done its job. Another point for skarm 5-1
Electivire: Electivire is the first pokemon on this list that has the possibility of running a mixed set, and using Thunderbolt or Flamethrower. Even with a pure physical set, Thunderpunch 2KO's.
Skarm won't beat electivire 5-2
Forretress: Forretress does next to nothing on Skarm in the way of damage, but setting up Spikes AND spinning them away is something Skarm just can't do. That'll be covered later, but Skarmory doesn't do well against Forretress.
Skarmory will beat this. 6-2 skarm
Gallade: Choice Band Close Combat is a guaranteed 2KO with Stealth Rock support. (53.89% - 63.47%)
Skarmory will beat this one on one but it can't switch in so no points for either side.
Gliscor: Another Pokemon that Skarmory can walk out and say it 'countered'. Baton Pass sets are ruined by Whirlwind, and Gliscor can't do much bar an Earthquake as Skarm's roosting, but that's not likely, given their respective Speeds. That's two for Skarmory.
7-2 skarm
Gyarados: This physical attacker's special attack is poor, so it has no real option of running a good mix set. He doesn't have anything, bar Fire Fang, that can super-effectively damage Skarmory. So why is Gyarados so safe a switch in to Skarmory? Simple. Taunt. It prevents all spiking, roosting, and whirlwinding, and it gets a free DD if it's stupid enough to stay in. In fact, just having that chance of a set up is frightening, since nobody likes stopping Gyarados on a DD. Waterfall does 36.23% - 42.51% with the held item as Lefties after one DD, nature being Adamant, which is already a lot for a neutral hit, and with Life Orb: Damage: 47.01% - 55.39%, which in the case of any residual damage, is a clean 2KO, and there's always that nasty flinch from Waterfall.
Skarm can roost up and stall life orb varients and whirlwind them away if they get greedy and DD again. Bulky varients are harder to handle and skarmory can set up all over the rest-talk varients. Gyarados isn't really a safe switch into skarmory as it can brave bird on the switch and beat it (factoring in SR damage). No points for either side as both can beat eachother.
Heracross: This one's a bit tricky to say, depends more on the switch going on. Heracross SHOULD NOT switch in, even if Skarm's setting down Spikes, since it will be silenced by a Drill Peck but on the other hand, Choice Band Heracross does 70.54% - 84.61% with a Choice Banded Close Combat. That's scary, and yet again, any past damage scrubs Skarmory over, and if it lives, it'll just become set up bait or be prone to a revenge kill.
What the fuck CAN switch in to CB heracross besides Gliscor. Skarmory will beat it one on one though. No points for either side
Hippowdon: Skarmory can't do much but phaze him, but spiking up is pretty easy on Hippowdon. I would worry about Roosting, though. Hippowdon's STAB'd Earthquake isn't one you want to get hit with. I'll let Skarmory safely say it can counter it's third OU threat.
8-2 skarm
Infernape: The only reason I mentioned Infernape is to later compare Bronzong to Skarmory in regards to fighting Infernape, but I'll safe that little nougat treat for later. Skarmory can't risk staying and being easily wiped out by a Flamethrower, nor can it let Infernape set up Nasty Plot, so Drill Peck, right? Good players use brave bird which is an OHKO.
73.13% - 86.05%
Good one, Skarmory, now it's got Blaze active. You couldn't handle an unboosted Flamethrower, so, yes, it makes more sense to give him the NP boost, and Blaze. That calculation was done on a Hasty Infernape, which means Naive would've also survived and possibly gotten Blaze up. Life Orb kills it in a few rounds, but by then, it'll have done it's damage.
Infernape can't safely switch in. No points either way.
Kingdra: Another common mixed user. Under rain, Surf OHKO's. Without rain: 66.17% - 77.54%
In retaliation, Skarmory Drill Pecks 4 MASUV DAMAJ.
No. It doesn't.
Considering the list of pokes this is a physical threat list. Skarm can set up a few spikes an then phaze DDkingdra's efforts. One of the best DDkingra counter IMO. 9-3 skarm
Lucario: Here's one that Skarmory loves to fight, especially considering SD Luke KO's it with a STAB Swords Danced Close Combat 100% of the time. Next. 9-4 skarm

Machamp: Max Atk, Leftovers as the item, and Dynamic Paunch is fired. Skarmory sponges the hit like a Champ, taking only 31.14% - 36.53%. Not great, but it's better than it's been doing. Choice Band Machamp, however: 46.41% - 54.49%, which is, yet again, a 2KO with Stealth Rock. Skarmory can't roost, or it takes the next one super-effectively. It also cannot do much with Drill Peck, since Machamp is far bulkier than Infernape. Then again, it might not do anything, considering the confusion from Dynamic Punch. Most common version that i see is rest-talk. If machamp gets confusion hax it wins. If not skarm wins. No points for either side.

Magnezone: Without a Shed Shell, Skarmory is helpless against a Magnezone. The reason I listed Magnezone is because, later, I'm going to compare it to Bronzong. I thought this was supposed to be a physical list.

Mamoswine: This is one that Skarm takes on well, especially Choice Band versions. It only hates CB Superpower, which is rare, so I'll let Skarmory have his fourth tally. 10-4 skarm

Metagross: No, no, and god no. It's only relatively safe switch in is on a Meteor Mash, since Thunderpunch on CBGross will neuter him. Even though he resists it, Choice Banded Explosion will strip 85% of Skarmory's health. Skarmory isn't getting any use after that.
Are you fucking kidding me? Choice Band Thunderpunch doesn't 2HKO while skarm sets up spikes on this all day. 11-4 skarm

Ninjask: 4x Bug Resist, ability to phaze Speed Boost and sub, so it's only real issue is Taunt, plus Ninjask can't stand up to Drill peck. Skarmory: 12-4

Salamence: Aw, do we have to? Yep. Fire Fang after a DD will 2KO, Flamethrower OHKO's, and a DD Outrage does 39% a hit. Yeah, great job walling it, Skarmory. 12-5 skarm

Scizor: Resisting Bullet Punch, X-Scissor, U-Turn, and Quick Attack would generally imply: counter, but since Brick Break/Superpower is just that common on Scizor, let's run a calc. This assumes one Swords Dance has been performed.
Brick Break: 40.12% - 47.31%
Superpower: 63.77% - 75.15%
Counter? Bah!
One on one skarm does okay but its not a clear cut counter. No points either side.
Snorlax: One COULD argue that Fire Punch on a Curse Lax does a lot to Skarm, or it could EQ while Roosting, but for the most part, Skarm is generally able to phaze the fat man, and be on his merry way. Six.
13-5 skarm
Swampert: Mixpert, the most common Swampert set, obviously hits Skarm on it's poor Sp. Def, while the Cursepert can still slam it with Waterfall, and nail a flinch before being phazed. Usually cripples Skarm on the way out, anyway. Skarm also can't stop Swampert's Stealth Rock from going up, barring Taunt, which is rare on Skarmory. Swampert also sometimes carry Hydro Pump, which gets a clean OHKO on him, no SR needed.
LOL. Mixperts surf doesn't 2HKO while skarmory can oustall the PP of hydro pump and set up all over it. Skarm phazes cursepert all day and CB pert does not 2HKO. 14-5 skarm.
Tyranitar: For the sheer sake of simplicity, I'm going to just use Choice Band Tyranitar for my example this time. Dragon Dance Tyranitar would virtually be the same, since after one DD, the attack stats match, and Tyraniboah would kill Skarm with Special attacks anyway, so that's more than pointless to say.
CB Stone Edge: 47.31% - 55.69%
2KO with Stealth Rock.
Oh I'm sorry that you didn't realised that skarm is faster and can remove its rock weakness. Skarm beats pretty much all physical versions but can't "counter" it. No points either way.
Weavile: This is the final physical attacker on the test list. I guess a Swords Danced Ice Punch would really be the only thing that could hurt Skarm, but Skarmory can phaze out the boosts, resists Night Slash and is neutral to Brick Break. Given the fairly low base power of his STAB, I'd say Skarmory's okay here. 15-5 skarm

Total number of physical threats that Skarmory has impunity against: 7 15

Seven Fifteen. You see, I'd only worry about Skarmory if your favorite pokemon are Mamoswine, Snorlax, Dugtrio, Weavile, Ninjask, and Hippowdon, and you made a favorites team. Then, Skarm would own your face. But nobody in their right mind would make that team, mostly because there isn't any special offense, aside from maybe MixMamo.

Yeah... So, there it is. Skarmory doesn't get many more free switch-ins, other than on it's resistances and immunities. Speaking of those, let's take a look-see.
Weaknesses: Fire, Electric
Neutrality: Fighting, Rock, Ice, Water
Resistances: Steel, Dark, Grass, Dragon, Psychic, Bug
Immunities: Poison, Ground.

Okay, this thing DOES have a nice typing, giving it a lot of resistances. But Bug/Flying also has many resistances, but that doesn't mean it's a good defensive typing. It's weaknesses are Fire and Electric. Forget the fact that Electric is a common type to use in the metagame, but Fire, oh, that's crippling. Special fire moves are THE most damaging to the OU metagame. That's right, it's been proven. Skarmory's weaknesses are very common, and almost every team packs them, heavily limiting it's viability. Next, are the neutrality. It mayn't seem that important what it takes normal damage on, but it is. It's neutral to Fighting moves, which, if you read in the 1 on 1's, is not good. Commonly used heavy hitters like Machamp, Gallade, and Heracross can break Skarm to pieces. Rock, while less common, means Skarm can't effectively counter CBtar or DDtar without essentially losing half it's health. Neutrality to Water and Ice make it prone to attacks from Gyarados, so that's an issue. Lastly, it's resistances and immunities. They're useful, somewhat, but it's a mixed bag. I'd say the Psychic and Ground ones are the more useful, though Psychic is questionable. You aren't going to shove this thing in front of a SpecsZam with a sane head, and if you through it Azelf's face, you get Thunderbolted or Fire Blasted. Starmie will Rapid Spin your Spikes away, and slam you with T-bolt. So, no, that's really not helpful, given there's only one physical psychic attack, Zen Headbutt, and that's too rare to make a good resist out of. But Ground, is yes, a good one. Earthquake is the most commonly used move in the metagame, so that's nice. But tread carefully. Roost is a mixed bag in that respect.
Speaking of, what does using Roost buy you? You lose your Electric weakness. AWESO- No. Bad. Very bad. Your gains and losses are not good. You get: Rock & Ice resistances. You lose your electric weakness. That's not that useful considering Skarm is generally slower than it's opposition anyway, and it STILL won't take the special hit well, since Volt Tackle and Thunderpunch are the only physical ones. It gets, however, a weakness to fighting, ground, and retains the common weakness to fire.
Roost: useful, but not without inherit risks.

That about covers it's viability in OU. With all these problems and more, it's got a good shot at BL. But wait, there's more:

The SECOND thing that usually relegates something to UU or BL is an inferiority complex, or it being outclassed by something else. Examples are Blaziken and Infernape, Dragonite and Salamence, and the one that has some relevant point: Skarmory and Bronzong.



Slaking's Choice Band Set Analysis:
Fire Punch hits Bronzong and Skarmory and OHKOs Forretress​


Marowak's Swords Dance Set Analysis:
Fire Punch is for Bronzong, Skarmory​


Aerodactyl's Life Orb Set Analysis:
Fire Blast becomes a better option than Fire Fang when you have Life Orb, as it will guarantee a OHKO on Forretress, a 2HKO on Skarmory and generally does a little more damage to Bronzong​
Regardless of the tier, Fire moves are specifically used and as quoted in several overviews for movesets, to combat Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong.

Bronzong and Skarmory are almost ALWAYS being compared in all movesets. Fire hits both super-effectively, but why then, would Skarmory have that bad inferiority complex to Zong?

Let's take a gander. First, we'll start with the counters:

Mixape: OHKO's Skarmory without any hassle, HOWEVER, it is interesting to note that the standard Bronzong survives an unboosted Flamethrower, and what can he do? Explode. He always lives with at least 8% heatlh, so taking out Mixape by sacrificing something ready to die anyway is ideal. Skarmory can't OHKO without attack investment, lest it imperil it's great 'defensive' qualities.

Magnezone: This one's a bit luck dependent, but generally, Bronzong will always fare a better chance. Both Bronzong and Skarmory could carry a Shed Shell, but that assuming neither was, Skarmory faints to an instant Thunderbolt, while a Drill Peck does a paltry <20%. Bronzong, on the other hand, at least has a chance. Hypnosis or Earthquake on the switch is deadly for Magnezone, and with SR up, Magnezone will faint with EQ, or at the very least, meet one after being Hypnotized. Not saying it is a perfect strategy, but in their respective situations, Bronzong will always fare a greater chance of success.

All manner of special attackers: Bronzong does sport the same Fire weakness as Skarmory, however, Bronzong has more resistance to Psychic, the same immunity of Ground, and resistance to Rock, and Ice, which makes Stealth Rock a minor hindrance for it. Bronzong also does not have the electric weakness. And Bronzong, with his many resistances, still stands up to neutral hits well, with a base 116 Sp. Def, and, though not as well as Skarmory, takes physical hits nicely, too.

So, Bronzong has better chances to defeat it's counters, sports a better typing, and takes special hits infinitely better than Skarmory. This alone should push the tin birdy down to BL. But no, I have to make two last comparisons of the two, before I ship the metal eagle to UU.

First off, there are the obvious viewpoints of the movepools.
Since Skarmory does not have a special movepool, nor a viable stat to use it with, we'll compare physical options first.

Bronzong:
Gyro Ball, Earthquake, Explosion, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt

Yep. Purdy shallow. But Bronzong doesn't need much more than that, since his support options are so vast. And just this is still a monster when facing most of the metagame.

Skarmory:
Steel Wing, Night Slash, Drill Peck, Rock Slide

Oh, wow. It's even worse that Zong. Besides listing things like Aerial Ace and Peck, this is grace enough. Night Slash will ruin that SpecsZam from earlier trying to switch in. I'm sure it'll OHKO, just like Drill Peck on that Infernape did. Rock Slide is good for Moltres and Charizard, because you will be staying on those and you won't be fried and sent off to a steel mill in Pittsburgh. Steel and Flying are both poor STABs, but at least Zong has low speed and Gyro Ball to work with against that CBTar that 2KO's the iron eagle.

That's not being fair, though. How can you say Skarm's bad if you don't look at it's support? You're just a nubcake who likes to hit things hard and not defense.

Skarmory: Spikes, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, Roost, Curse, Taunt, Metal Sound, Swords Dance, Agility

Okay, besides the absolutely useless Metal Sound, let's look at everything else he has. Because, really, what is Skarmory going to do, soften up his counters and slam them with a STAB Flash Cannon off of that awesome base 40 Sp. Atk? It's gonna take out Blissey with that, man. Spikes and Stealth Rock are nice, because Skarmory can usually get a layer up before being physically or specially beaten down, then there's Whirlwind for phazing and shuffling. A good chunk of the time, Skarm will shuffle in something that has a move that can kill it, though. Still, a useful tactic. Then we have it's stat alts, which are Agility, Swords Dance, and Curse. Agility isn't all that good, especially when Skarm can't OHKO anything that isn't 4x weak to it's moves, or Ninjask. Then there's Swords Dance, but Steel/Flying are still poor STAB's, and his entire pool gets walled by Heatran, except for Rock Slide, which is neutral, and Heatran still won't care. Curse, I must admit, would be interesting, if Skarmory didn't have poor Sp. Def. Even at Max Sp. Def, Max HP, it's hit taking ability is not great, and it will still be OHKO'd by that unboosted Flamethrower from Infernape. Here's a calc to prove it:

94.91% - 111.38%

My bad, it gets to Curse or fail Drill Peck once before it dies, maybe. But Spikes, SR, Roost, Whirlwind, that's more that Bronzong has got, right?

Bronzong: Hypnosis, Rain Dance, Stealth Rock, Block, Iron Defense, Safeguard, Light Screen, Reflect, Trick Room, Confuse Ray, Calm Mind

Of all the options up there, most are valuable. Stealth Rock is on almost every Bronzong, but Skarm gets that too. Hypnosis, is IMO, the most useful of the others. Sleeping a Heatran/Magnezone switchin is ridiculously useful, especially in Magnezone's case. Block and Calm Mind can trap a slept opponent while bulking your defenses, and since you can actually take hits from both sides, it's viable. Hard, but viable. Light Screen and Reflect soften up hits for the rest of the team, which is great, and makes Bronzong more of a team player than Skarmory. Trick Room turns sweeper's speed against them, allowing for an explosion before your opponent can outspeed you, or a quick status, as well as helping out others like Marowak and Slowbro. Bronzong is easily, the sturdiest lead for a Rain Dance set up, and can explode once you're done, plus it removes your fire weaknesses, meaning you're weak to nothing, and resistant to a lot. Safeguard, Confuse Ray, and Iron Defense border on novelty, but if you're into novelty, that's fine.

The only niche Skarmory has over Bronzong is the ability to Roost, take physical hits slightly better, and use Spikes.
Bronzong offers more support, can actually take out foes quickly, such as sweepers with Gyro Ball, and Exploding if necessary, and he can Hypnosis, which is always a handy status.

If you desperately want a Spiker, I'd go with Forretress instead of Skarm. It takes physical hits about as well, resists ice, can explode, use all three entry hazards, has gyro ball and earthquake for direct offense, and only has one weakness, making it much more manageable, especially when paired with Heatran.

I did mention earlier Bronzong and Skarm's special movepools weren't comparable, and that's because with his special movepool, Bronzong is capable of taking out some of the threats that are posed by the aforementioned sweepers that Skarm had trouble with. Here's how you can deal with them using Bronzong.


Aerodactyl: Bronzong offers a quick OHKO with Gyro Ball, beating suicide leads down. Unfortunately, barely anything stops the Stealth Rock.
Breloom: This is one of the few that Skarmory and Bronzong are on par with together. It's a tad easier for Skarm with Drill Peck, but the sub will still protect it and then it will switch out, having chipped off 50% of either Zong or Skarm's health.
Donphan: This is where Zong's special movepool comes in handy. Grass Knot offers a handy 120 BP attack to use on Donphan's weak Sp. Def.
Dragonite: Bronzong is 2KO'd by a DD Fire Fang, but can Hypnotize, hit it heavily with Gyro Ball, or Explode before it's killed. Other than a critical hit, it can't be OHKO'd by anything off of one Dragon Dance.
Dugtrio: Gyro Ball silences this thing, and only Heatproof Bronzongs are trapped, but still aren't OHKO'd. Skarmory has a bit of trouble taking it down fast.
Dusknoir: This is a bit tricky, but pure special versions of Bronzong are good. Block/Calm Mind is particularly useful here, though beware of Will O' Wisp wearing you down overtime.
Electivire: Bronzong takes no super-effective hits off the standard all physical Vire. He can end it fast with EQ, and is not OHKO'd by any fire move, even Choice Banded Fire Punch.
Forretress: Resists Explosion, Gyro Ball, immune to Earthquake, dodges Spikes and Toxic Spikes, resists SR. I guess the SR resistance is all it's got over Skarm. Or it could use it as a Block/Calm Mind fodder.
Gallade: Still tricky with Zong, but Hypnotizing and then Gyro Ballin' after the defense drops from CC will end it. Plus, he can come in on CB ThunderPunch, and resists Ice Punch, which Skarm can't claim.
Gliscor: Special set helps here, but Gliscor is still walled by any variant of Zong.
Gyarados: Charge Beam is REALLY helpful here, so Bronzong can end it in two hits. One while he sets up the DD, expecting nothing, and then another after you take the hit. Or you can just explode, since you'll be weary afterward.
Heracross: Can't come in on CB Megahorn or CB Close Combat, but Stone Edge and Night Slash aren't a terrible issue. Gyro Ball for success, and if you're sure it can't Sleep Talk, use Hypnosis. Skarm does this one a bit better with Drill Peck.
Hippowdon: Grass Knot, like on Donphan, will be painful. Just look out for the rare CB Fire Fang.
Infernape: As mentioned before, it can survive an unboosted Flamethrower, and explode for the KO, so do that thing.
Kingdra: Be sure it isn't a Sub-DD Kingdra first, because under rain, even when resisted, Gyro Ball 3KOs. You won't be taking many Waterfalls, though, so if you're sure it can't sub, use Explosion.
Lucario: Both Zong and Skarm are messed up by SD Luke, but at least Zong can take and unboosted CC on and EQ for the KO after the defense drops.
Machamp: Tricky, not impossible. Zong resists everything on the typical CB Machamp except for Dynamic Punch, Thunder Punch, and Payback, the latter two shouldn't be debilitating.
Magnezone: As listed up top, it has a shot at it, and it should be noted, it's 2KO'd, not OHKO'd like Skarm, so it can at least reply.
Mamoswine: Bronzong comes in with impunity, and can use super-effective Gyro Balls.
Metagross: Good against anything but Explosion, and it can reply with EQ or Hypnosis.
Ninjask: Gyro Ball will make a cool sound effect when the bug goes splat, but even if it BP's, the recipients still have the same souped up speed to be hammered. SR means Ninjask can't BP that many more times.
Salamence: It can survive Fire Blasts from an Adamant DDMence without being 2KO'd, and Explosion still OHKO's after Intimidate.
Scizor: It's in the same boat as Skarm on this one, except for Hypnosis, and Explosion chipping off 70% of Scizor's HP.
Snorlax: Gyro Ball doesn't do well here, so sleep it, and use the time to set up a sweeper instead. Cursed Fire Punches hurt.
Swampert: Grass Knot, will, as mentioned before, wastes Swampert.
Tyranitar: Resistant to Stone Edge and neutral to Crunch, Bronzong is an ideal candidate for a DD Tar Counter, as Gyro Ball is super-effective, and it is souped up with the speed boost. CBTar is even easier, since Earthquake and Stone Edge are basically blank checks.
Weavile: Gyro Ball will OHKO it, but SD Night Slash does a bit. Still does it better than Skarm.

So, if Skarm can't switch in on most of the OU Metagame, is outclassed by Bronzong, and somewhat by Forretress, what is it still doing in OU You're an idiot. You've obviously never used skarmory because bronzong plays a completely different role and skarmory has INSTANT RECOVERY which forretress doesn't? It needs to be in BL/UU Uh no, just no. Skarmory can set up on pretty much any wall in the game. The D/P/P generation is an offensive one, and Hippowdon, Forretress, and Bronzong are superior choices Bronzong and Hippo do not get spikes which is the sole reason why you would use skarmory and forre doesn't get instant recovery. Stop talking about bullshit which you have no idea on because its obvious you have never used skarmory. It's outclassed, it's viability is questionable, so it's a good candidate for Borderline or Underused. Uh...no
If you don't think this could happen in a generation shift, look at some good examples:
Milotic
Weezing
Claydol
Thats complete theorymon.
All of them were OU, and now Milotic's BL, while Claydol and Weezing are UU. If Skarmory was Underused, I think it wouldn't be that awful. Weezing, Milotic, and Claydol are all still seen sometimes in standard, and Skarmory isn't banished from OU, so there's a perfect place for it in a UU team somewhere.

A single tiny thing of interest, is that Bronzong can pack the element of surprise with Heatproof, though it isn't advised unless you're bold. Even if Bronzong was limited to Heatproof, it is still superior to Skarmory's Keen Eye and Sturdy. Keen Eye means Sand Attack will fail, (oh, wow.) and Sturdy is useless considering OHKO moves are almost always banned.
Bronzong has no recovery outside of rest. Bronzong just sits there doing nothing unless they are fast while skarmory sets up spikes and phazes.

Skarmory is an awesome asset to any team but it shouldn't be played as an all purpose physical wall its one purpose is to spike and phaze which neither Bronzong, Foretress or Hippowdon can do. (Hippo can phaze but not spike and forre can spike but not phaze). Skarmory sucks? Think again.
 

Gmax

kuahahahaha
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Panamaxis said:
Skarmory doesn't beat Forretress, don't be ridiculous...

RS has more PP than Spikes, and Forry can just keep spinning away your own Spikes and Forry can just Spike up himself. Don't bring the other Pokemon of your team into this argument. As far as switching out to a Ghost is concerned, if you can predict him Spinning, he can predict you switching out and Spike up himself. Don't bring up your being able to Spin them away either, since if once can assume you have a Spinner, one can ALSO assume the opponent has a Ghost and can switch it in. It can go either way, depending on the actions of you and your opponent.

Personally, if I'm using a Forry and someone has Skarm out, I'll just keep Spinning until they go to their Ghost. Forry has plenty of opportunities to come in, being Bug/Steel and Spiking up can be done against other Pokemon who will not be able to hurt Forry and would certainly switch out, possibly to a Ghost. Spinning is the best option against Skarmory, even if might end up facing a Ghost, since if Skarmory does perchance get an extra layer of Spikes out on the field, it'll be much harder to remove later.

Skarmory doesn't beat Forry at all. So don't say it does.

I also disagree with you about Breloom. Arguments like "ROOST UP AS IT SWITCHES" are not arguments at all. What you are talking about is not necessarily what will happen. Do you think Skarmory will enjoy eating a 450 BP attack as it roosts? "BUT IT'S SWITCHING!" Says who? You're not the one to decide that it's switching an he can't really decide that it is not. How can you assume something else is already asleep? I could just as easily assume that Skarm has taken enough damage for Focus Punch to KO him. How do you know he's not going to SubSeed? Breloom isn't something Skarm can just take lightly. It'll cost it if it does.

I don't like your argument about Infernape either. Skarmory is supposed to wall Infernape, Infernape isn't supposed to switch into Skarmory. Are you telling me Skarmory will come in on Infernape? I really don't think that's happening. That's really not a good argument at all. You're pulling the same stuff with Gyarados as well. Skarm is a wall. The wall's job is to stop a sweeper's sweep. To stop a sweeper, it must come in on the sweeper. The only matchup that can be considered in the argument is Wall vs Sweeper. Therefore in this argument it is limited to Skarm coming in on Gyarados/Infernape. The sweeper's job is to sweep. This goal can be accomplished by coming in on any Pokemon in the opponent's team. Not just Skarmory. Therefore the matchups that one can choose from are not limited to Sweeper vs Wall. Therefore Gyarados/Ape are free to come in on any of the opponent's other five Pokemon, and that is what most players would probably do.

And you're getting pretty technical with Kingdra as well. It's not something Skarm would mess with, and I really don't think you'd just assume Kingdra was running only Physical attacks. Mixed Kingdra would nail Skarm pretty hard. We're talking about Kingdra as a Pokemon here, not Physical Attacker Kingdra.

And um, seriously, enough with the Skarm hate. It's not the end all physical wall that it used to be, but it's still a decent Spiker, and can take more than a few hits with no trouble. Keep it clear of certain Pokemon, and Skarm will be a valuable asset to your team.
 
Skarmory doesn't beat Forretress, don't be ridiculous...

RS has more PP than Spikes, and Forry can just keep spinning away your own Spikes and Forry can just Spike up himself. Don't bring the other Pokemon of your team into this argument. As far as switching out to a Ghost is concerned, if you can predict him Spinning, he can predict you switching out and Spike up himself. Don't bring up your being able to Spin them away either, since if once can assume you have a Spinner, one can ALSO assume the opponent has a Ghost and can switch it in. It can go either way, depending on the actions of you and your opponent.

Personally, if I'm using a Forry and someone has Skarm out, I'll just keep Spinning until they go to their Ghost. Forry has plenty of opportunities to come in, being Bug/Steel and Spiking up can be done against other Pokemon who will not be able to hurt Forry and would certainly switch out, possibly to a Ghost. Spinning is the best option against Skarmory, even if might end up facing a Ghost, since if Skarmory does perchance get an extra layer of Spikes out on the field, it'll be much harder to remove later.

Skarmory doesn't beat Forry at all. So don't say it does.
1 on 1, Forry won't be doing anything to Skarmory. Skarmory on the other hand, can KO Forry with Brave Bird.

Maybe Forry CAN spin away Skarm's Spikes, but saying it'll ALWAYS come out on top is rubbish.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Isn't this rather beside the point? Skarmory at #19 is still incredibly popular. 19 is not a bad spot for it at all, really. Which of the eighteen above it are less useful than Skarmory? To be in the top twenty at all is excellent, considering that Skarm didn't really gain anything from Platinum, and had to deal with a huge surge in Zapdos, Rotom-H/W and the already-popular Heatran.
 

Gmax

kuahahahaha
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
First of all, discussing a 1v1 matchup of Skarm vs Forretress is a pointless exercise. Neither of them is there for their raw offensive power, their ability to attack. Face it, you won't be trying to attack Forry with Skarm. Skarm never "beats" Forry, since Forry's entry either forces Skarm out immediately, or it risks losing its Spikes. I'd say Skarm got the short end of the stick.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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I'm pretty amazed that Cresselia is still as high as #41, higher than Jolteon and Porygon-Z, among others. How does this thing still get used when it gets destroyed so badly by Tyranitar and Scizor? What good is a wall that only lives a few turns, and can't even switch out against its sure-thing counters?
 
18% is nothing to scoff at to be honest. If 1 in 5 Snorlax that I meet will have the Choice Band, that is certainly something that I will be factoring into my thinking when I see one. Sure CBLax is a poor answer to Skarmory. Also yeah sure you're allowed to swear on these boards but don't go over the top seriously, this is merely a discussion of the Pokemon Skarmory, hardly something to go tearing your hair out about mate.
That's already obvious; Snorlax isn't going to switch in on Skarmory anytime soon. However, my point was that Skarmory risks a possible OHKO from CB Selfdestruct (provided it has switched into Stealth Rock):
525 Atk vs 198 Def & 334 HP (200 Base Power): 284 - 335 (85.03% - 100.30%)
198 DEF's there because Explosion/Selfdestruct halves its targets defense when its used (factor this in, or else CB Metagross's explosion doesn't even come close to a OHKO either)
 
Wow, so Vaporeon finally beat out Suicune... How odd. Vap's just getting more and more popular.

Also, Skarmory's more popular than Gliscor now!! Hehe, maybe it's cuz half the people I battle are surprised by my Skarmory's talents!!!... or not.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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That's already obvious; Snorlax isn't going to switch in on Skarmory anytime soon. However, my point was that Skarmory risks a possible OHKO from CB Selfdestruct (provided it has switched into Stealth Rock):
525 Atk vs 198 Def & 334 HP (200 Base Power): 284 - 335 (85.03% - 100.30%)
198 DEF's there because Explosion/Selfdestruct halves its targets defense when its used (factor this in, or else CB Metagross's explosion doesn't even come close to a OHKO either)
If it forces its target to blow up, then yes, it's a counter. Heatran can blow up on Blissey, but that doesn't change the fact that Blissey is a Heatran counter, as if Tran has spent itself on beating Bliss, then it's done its job.
 
And it shouldnt, there was only one person in particular "smart" enough to abuse BP Mew.

Screens are actually the only reason, to stop a certain someone's kitten tactics. Otherwise, SuperPower is obviously superior for Blissey.


Because the same certain someone stopped molesting the ladder
Wow, you take my BP Mew Team way too seriously. "Molesting the ladder"? Come on, drop it already, the most of the mods and players have already said that it's a legitimate strategy, you play to win, 'nuff said. BTW, like I said in my RMT topic, I've set out what I tried to do with the team (Become #1 for a good 2 weeks), and I'm trying to phaze it out as well as attempt to develop a new one. Right now, I'm giving OU a try and going to try and become #1 on that ladder as well.

Anyways, I for one am glad that Jirachi is climbing in Lead Usage now with Iron Head and Trick (I started using it this month all on my own after figuring out it had Iron Head and Trick). But now with the new threats of Jirachi, Metagross, and Scizor, it's not surprising that Magnezone is seeing more use, and with a Scarf, people have now realized that it can also take down Lucario as well. With their resistances, Steels are great for the current "Bulky Sweeper" type of mindset this metagame has developed into. Plenty of Steels can switch in, get damaged by Stealth Rock, take a hit, do whatever they need to do, switch out, and switch in again later on pretty effectively. That Stealth Rock resistance or neutrality is critical in this current metagame, so it's not surprising why Steel usage is becoming very high in OU. I expect Magnezone's use to rise even more in the next couple months.
 
Usage in OU is extremely volatile. Since October, Skarmory jumped 11 places, Mamoswine dropped 8 places, Tyranitar saw about 15,000 more usages and jumped 5 places from 9th to 4th...

I just can't wait until all these suspect tests are over so that the metagame can finally settle down and I can get back into playing. I just don't see the point of seriously trying to build a team at this point in time when things change so much from month to month, largely because we keep on testing so much crap.
 
Usage in OU is extremely volatile. Since October, Skarmory jumped 11 places, Mamoswine dropped 8 places, Tyranitar saw about 15,000 more usages and jumped 5 places from 9th to 4th...

I just can't wait until all these suspect tests are over so that the metagame can finally settle down and I can get back into playing. I just don't see the point of seriously trying to build a team at this point in time when things change so much from month to month, largely because we keep on testing so much crap.
The fact that people are still adjusting to the changes in Platinum along with those Tests is the reason those statistics are volatile, and most likely will be for a while.
 
Right, Platinum too I forgot to mention that. But the tests are what get on my nerves, they're gonna delay a stable metagame for a very long time considering how many things are on the list.
 
Wow, you take my BP Mew Team way too seriously. "Molesting the ladder"? Come on, drop it already, the most of the mods and players have already said that it's a legitimate strategy, you play to win, 'nuff said. BTW, like I said in my RMT topic, I've set out what I tried to do with the team (Become #1 for a good 2 weeks), and I'm trying to phaze it out as well as attempt to develop a new one. Right now, I'm giving OU a try and going to try and become #1 on that ladder as well.

Hows OU working out for you?
And I havent seen you on the Uber ladder EVER without "your" famous all star BP Mew team.

And I never said it was illegitimate, I was just saying that its an easy combo that shouldnt see play but unfortunately does.
.
I also wanted to pointed out that Tyranitar's increased usage has alot to do with Zapdos and Heatran rising to superstardom.

Tyranitar's rise is probably one of the leading causes for Scizor being #1, other than the fact that its pure awesome
 

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