Smogon Tournament #4

skarm

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I just got back from Southern California and am spending some time with my gf... but I'll post this just so I have ideas to come back to - ideas for ST4? Honestly, the three division thing although kind of amusing was rather pointless. I also don't see a problem getting 256 either.

Ideas - straight tournament, divisions, seedings, what????
 

Jackal

I'm not retarded I'm Canadian it's different
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the division thing was kind of anti climax as it limited the people you could play, and my division ended up being really shitty compared to the others, which was good for me but also is kind of unfair.

I really like the concept of seeding, but it would be impossible to seed 256 people. Straight up free-for-all also has its disadvantages as two heavyweights could face off round one while two inactive randoms will not battle and one will advance on a coin toss.

The "fairest" thing to do is maybe make some sort of "trainer tier" for the first round or two, in order to make it as competitive as possible. What i mean is maybe rank everyone that signs up 1-3, 1 being a preverbial "random" (we are bound to get many), 2 being "I have heard the name but he hasnt really proven himself to be amazing", and 3 would be a proven battler. Then in the first round kind of pair 3's against 1's and 2's against 2's.

This would preserve the competitiveness of the tourney, albeit make round one boring. But i would hate to see round one: "husk vs loki" and then right under it "xXxrandomxXx vs lol_who_am_i69"

this provides the effect of seeding while not actually seeding 256 people, cause you are right in saying we will get that many people.

(on a sidenote did the winners last time ever get the prizes? :o)
 

Aeolus

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I don't want to beat a dead horse, but ST4 would be a great way to kick off the release of Competitor. I know it is still a ways off since the site is the priority currently, but it wouldn't hurt us to delay the tournament a bit.
 
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but ST4 would be a great way to kick off the release of Competitor. I know it is still a ways off since the site is the priority currently, but it wouldn't hurt us to delay the tournament a bit.
I didn't want to be the first one to say this but this is definitely right. It's the single biggest draw we have available to bring people to competitor once it is rolling - it would be foolish not to use it.



As far as seeding I kinda like Jackal's idea, actually seeding that many people 1-2-3-4-5-6-7... is not even remotely feasible and there's far too much conjecture on exactly who goes where, especially since I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who've just started playing again for the tournament, especially if it coincides with the release of competitor. Also, if we do seeding, there's always the problem that people will bitch if they end up being a 1(or whatever else the 'random tier' is). Is it necessary(if a bit dishonest) to even mention the tiering thing on the signup thread? We could avoid some problems that way, potentially.
 

david stone

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When people are paired for a tournament, the general assumption is that it's random pairings, or at the least, based on when you signed up for it (and people expect random from Smogon), unless stated otherwise. It would seem a bit deceitful to do otherwise.
 

Vineon

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I disagree with seedings. I never liked that format to begin with.

It is giving some players a free ride in the early rounds. I wanted to join ST4 because I joined all the others but that will grant me by default an extremely low seeding and a nearly impossible pairing.

I dont mind getting a tough pairing if this is done randomly.
 

Hipmonlee

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Yeah seedings suck.

Divisions are created randomly so you could hardly call them unfair.. By the end of the tournament divisions will effectively haven been created anyway, and if you wanted to allow different divisions to move at different speeds it could be a way of getting things done quicker, but otherwise there is really no point whatsoever.

On a side note, I am gonna win.

Have a nice day.
 

skarm

I HAVE HOTEL ROOMS
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The reason the ST4 topic came up in general is because chaos asked me if I was going to run it during Smogon's 3rd Birthday before I left early this month. If there's enough people suggesting we wait until Competitor, that's fine, but that may take a while for it to be completed, tested, and debugged.
 

Jackal

I'm not retarded I'm Canadian it's different
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If the tournament can start and end before competitor is released id say do it now. If not then wait. Either way we need a major DP tournament to get a lot of the "Stark Mountain Only" users into the tournaments section.
 

Sonuis

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Pairings seem boring as of recent so, I think we should generate brackets for matchups. It will be much easier in the long run due to the size, if it becomes large enough. In addition, we can create a sub competition for predicting the outcome of the tournament. Simple stuff, no? Otherwise, battle rules are something I won't argue about. Though, if we use brackets like I've recommended, then the tournament will be single elim.

Oh, a prize for the Sub Competition winner gets a one time choice of a custom title.

P.S.: There's no tournament I can't handle, so leave it to me.
 

Aeolus

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It isn't about legitimizing shoddy, that is already done.

It is about leveraging the popularity and prestige of the tournament to regain lost market share for competitor when we do release it. I'm not saying that we 100% need to wait... but it is certainly a consideration that should be discussed.
 

Articuno64

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I don't think we should wait. We can do any number of things to "kick off" Competitor, and I thought that's what we were going to use the Smogon tour for?

We really don't know how long it will be until Competitor will be finished. There are a lot of unknowns.
 

chaos

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No. Don't wait for Competitor. Stop basing things around Competitor. It isn't coming until I am happy with the site. It isn't on my list of priorities. Shoddy Battle is good enough for now, and in fact I am really glad it's around so I can concentrate on bringing the site back up to speed without listening to a bunch of (BAN ME PLEASE)s whine about the lack of a D/P simulator.
 

gene

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I'd definitely like to see a 256-man tournament without any divisions... I liked the way ST2 was run a lot.
 

skarm

I HAVE HOTEL ROOMS
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I'm somewhat intrigued by making a bracket. If that's the case we should probably seed at least some of the top competitors so that its not a huge let down with a bunch of randoms on one side of the tree.

That would make the Sub Tournaments for predictions a lot easier among other things.

Is anyone else, even if you've already weighed in here, interested in a bracket style tournament with seedings for some of the top players to disperse them among the field?
 

Jackal

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predicting march madness is always fun, and it would definitely make the sub tournament much more practical and fun also, especially if we could find a way to host everyones bracket (I know Shiv used a site like this for a RBY tourney a while back). My worry of the best facing off round one would also be adressed if you at least kept the "top tier" people on different ends of the bracket, although as sonuis said, its hard to draw the line at where you stop seeding, and also do it in a fashion to not comprimise the integrity of the system.
 

Sonuis

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If we are doing the brackets, I'm running into a problem. I can't find a free 256 bracket program. Think I can get some help? It's possible to split over two 128 brackets.
 

Vineon

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Is anyone else, even if you've already weighed in here, interested in a bracket style tournament with seedings for some of the top players to disperse them among the field?

Right but seeding is suggestive. Some less known really good players will be left out and there was never a season or something of the sort to rank people.

You are giving a handful of elites pairings that will surely avoid them taking on each other. Why are they granted favoritism. I like the idea of everybody having a same equal chance right off the bat, until the pairings are randomly drawn rather than before.

They will be parts of the tree substantially weaker than others, thats a given, but with a 256 people tournament you are still certain to have a very good battler at the end against another. Nobody is going to slide easily through it until the end. After round 3, whatever pairings produced, there probably wont be many sucky people left, if any.
 

Hipmonlee

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TBH I dont think seedings in advance really could be considered fair..

We just dont have an objective method of deciding them.. Really the only thing we could use is the shoddy ladder, but we arent affiliated with it in any way, and it isnt really universal enough.

As for brackets, I think it is a good idea. Purelimit used to run tournaments like that (though much smaller) and I always enjoyed them. It can help with getting matches completed also!

But the threat of tough first round matchups is what makes tournaments fun! Seriously, even with seedings top seeded players will still lose in r1, and then they will just feel shittier..

Have a nice day.
 

Jackal

I'm not retarded I'm Canadian it's different
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if you are looking for someone to run it due to skarms erratic attendance at the moment I would love to, or if you want an admin to do it i would be willing to help out.

I had no idea if this was gonna happen now, and me and shiv actually discussed getting the world cup running to bridge the gap until st4, but I would much rather see this get up on its feet now.
 

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