Smogon University PO Statistics — November 2011

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Quick question to anyone using Kyurem in OU:

Code: 
 + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ +
 | Kyurem                                                                        |
 + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ +
 | Ability |100.0 | Pressure                                                     |
 + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ +
 | Item    | 43.6 | Choice Scarf                                                 |
 | Item    | 29.3 | Leftovers                                                    |
 | Item    | 13.1 | Life Orb                                                     |
 | Item    | 11.0 | Choice Specs                                                 |
 | Item    |  3.0 | Other                                                        |
 + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ +
 | Move    | 90.4 | Focus Blast                                                  |
 | Move    | 74.7 | Blizzard                                                     |
 | Move    | 72.2 | Draco Meteor                                                 |
 | Move    | 48.7 | Dragon Pulse                                                 |
 | Move    | 35.4 | Ice Beam                                                     |
 | Move    | 24.9 | Substitute                                                   |
 | Move    | 22.3 | Hidden Power                                                 |
 | Move    | 14.1 | Outrage                                                      |
 | Move    |  6.0 | Glaciate                                                     |
 | Move    | 11.3 | Other                                                        |
 + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ +
 | Nature  | 50.1 | Modest                                                       |
 | Nature  | 35.1 | Timid                                                        |
 | Nature  |  5.8 | Rash                                                         |
 | Nature  |  2.6 | Hasty                                                        |
 | Nature  |  2.3 | Mild                                                         |
 | Nature  |  4.1 | Other                                                        |
 + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ +
 | EVs     | 53.6 | 252 SpA / 252 Spe                                            |
 | EVs     | 13.9 | ~44 HP / ~240 SpA / ~212 Spe                                 |
 | EVs     |  6.8 | ~100 Def / ~212 SpA / ~184 Spe                               |
 | EVs     |  5.0 | ~44 HP / ~212 SpA / ~240 Spe                                 |
 | EVs     |  2.3 | ~44 HP / ~72 Def / 252 SpA / ~128 Spe                        |
 | EVs     |  2.3 | ~44 HP / ~44 Atk / 252 SpA / ~156 Spe                        |
 | EVs     |  2.2 | ~44 HP / 252 SpA / ~212 Spe                                  |
 | EVs     | 14.0 | Other                                                        |
 + ------- + ---- + -------------------- + ------------------------------------- +
 | Kyurem @ Choice Scarf                 | Kyurem @ Life Orb                     |
 | Pressure                              | Pressure                              |
 | 252 SpA / 252 Spe                     | 96 Def / 216 SpA / 196 Spe            |
 | Modest                                | Timid                                 |
 | - Blizzard                            | - Ice Beam                            |
 | - Dragon Pulse                        | - Blizzard                            |
 | - Focus Blast                         | - Focus Blast                         |
 | - Draco Meteor                        | - Draco Meteor                        |
 + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ +

Given that mess of EV spreads and near-even split of Timid/Modest (not to mention the fact that scarf is the most common item by far) what are Kyurem's notable speed spreads?

1337 OU gives me only 2 spreads, Modest 236 and Scarf Modest 252, but thats probably because only two people that high up actually use Kyurem...
 
Thundur said:
There are a lot more Pokemon that can handle CB Terrakion. Gliscor, Slowbro, Hippo, Forretress, priority, anything faster that can KO. Although not all these Pokemon are OU, they are all viable.
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I think you're a bit confused by what he said. Gliscor and Slowbro are probably apart of the four he mentioned, along with Scizor, the only 'priority' in OU that's both relevant and can take on Terrakion. Even a max/max Relaxed Forry can't take two CCs from that thing, and most faster checks are obliterated switching in. Hippowdon has a small chance of being 2HKOed with just rocks up and has to be perfectly healthy in order to be able to take him on. He's technically a counter, but hardly reliable.

I'll debate you on whether or not he's a little too difficult to deal with, but he's perfectly right in saying that CB Terrakion is very hard to handle overall and you can count on one hand the number of things that can actually beat him without dying on the way in.
 
SJCrew said:
I think you're a bit confused by what he said. Gliscor and Slowbro are probably apart of the four he mentioned, along with Scizor, the only 'priority' in OU that's both relevant and can take on Terrakion. Even a max/max Relaxed Forry can't take two CCs from that thing, and most faster checks are obliterated switching in. Hippowdon has a small chance of being 2HKOed with just rocks up and has to be perfectly healthy in order to be able to take him on. He's technically a counter, but hardly reliable.

I'll debate you on whether or not he's a little too difficult to deal with, but he's perfectly right in saying that CB Terrakion is very hard to handle overall and you can count on one hand the number of things that can actually beat him without dying on the way in.
Click to expand...
Terrakion is not just weak to Scizor's BP. With Terrakion's typing, he is weak to fighting priority as well. After hazard damage along with prior damage Terrakion is not going to like to take a Mach Punch.
 
Thundur said:
Terrakion is not just weak to Scizor's BP. With Terrakion's typing, he is weak to fighting priority as well. After hazard damage along with prior damage Terrakion is not going to like to take a Mach Punch.
Click to expand...

Then the Mach Punch fails to OHKO(you can't even switch in with any Mach Punchers...) and he stills OHKOs back :(

As a Hail user(although my Hail team sucks, but w/e), CB Terrakion is one of my worst nightmares because it's not too easy to fit his checks/counters in Hail.
 
^Nidoqueen is quite easy to fit onto hail teams as an SR user/toxic spiker/toxic spikes absorber/fighting resistance/rock resistance/sheere force blizzard abuser/etc.

I think the first hail discussion topic on this board listed as her as a worthy support pokemon for hail. Try her out. You will like her. You will marry her. And if you ever think of getting divorced, I have my trusty shotgun by my side to set you on the right track.
 
alphatron said:
^Nidoqueen is quite easy to fit onto hail teams as an SR user/toxic spiker/toxic spikes absorber/fighting resistance/rock resistance/sheere force blizzard abuser/etc.

I think the first hail discussion topic on this board listed as her as a worthy support pokemon for hail. Try her out. You will like her. You will marry her. And if you ever think of getting divorced, I have my trusty shotgun by my side to set you on the right track.
Click to expand...


I'll try to fit her in. The problem with hail is that you need Aboma, you need a spinner, you need Fighting , Steel, and Rock resists, you need abusers, etc.
It gets really packed easily.
 
Just posting to say that the data compiled by Innocent Criminal is INCREDIBLE. A very nice addition to the tri-monthly usage stats. Thank you, IC!
 
Please let Alakazam stay in UU.... Ah whatever. It's probably futile.

Anyway, glad to see Dragonite out of #1. It's good, but not that good. I also think Starmie needs some more love...
 
yaysnivy34 said:
]I also think Starmie needs some more love...
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Love isn't the word I'd use for it. I don't think anyone that uses Starmie (outside of rain) truly loves her, they just find her Rapid Spinning utility extremely useful. Even inside rain, I think most people only use her over Rotom-W for Rapid Spin. She's extremely frail and has fairly awful typing that leaves her open to U-turn and Pursuit. And while she may have blazing speed, she lacks the ppwer to utilize it properly. Frankly, were it not for Rapid Spin and its horrible distribution, I think Starmie would be down in UU with her old buddy Raikou, perhaps even further.
 
Kaos said:
Love isn't the word I'd use for it. I don't think anyone that uses Starmie (outside of rain) truly loves her, they just find her Rapid Spinning utility extremely useful. Even inside rain, I think most people only use her over Rotom-W for Rapid Spin. She's extremely frail and has fairly awful typing that leaves her open to U-turn and Pursuit. And while she may have blazing speed, she lacks the ppwer to utilize it properly. Frankly, were it not for Rapid Spin and its horrible distribution, I think Starmie would be down in UU with her old buddy Raikou, perhaps even further.
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You forgot the part where Starmie is an amazing hard hitter in rain teams and also an amazing revenge killer.
His coverage is unmatched there is no denying that...And its coverage along with its decent power and huge speed is the main reason he is where he is.
 
Bolt Beam is not even a tenth of what it used to be. The heavy hitting offensive Pokemon these days have great STABs to attribute to their coverage and heavy offensive power. Starmie only has one good STAB and probably won't even do enough damage if it hits super effectively, not to mention the fact that it is dependent on Rain to do decent damage, completely shut down by Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, and the pink blobs, or Pursuited on the way out by Tyranitar and Scizor.

Its Achilles' heel have all but begun to catch up to it this time around. I'm inclined to agree with the fact that it's used mostly for Rapid Spinning and Drizzle teams in OU this gen. Fortunately, that's a big enough niche that he's still finding himself placing top 20.
 
alexwolf said:
You forgot the part where Starmie is an amazing hard hitter in rain teams and also an amazing revenge killer.
His coverage is unmatched there is no denying that...And its coverage along with its decent power and huge speed is the main reason he is where he is.
Click to expand...

But then you realize that Starmie doesn't have a good way to beat Ferrothorn(without using HP Fire, but I'll get to that later) and you need a LO to be able to 2HKO Jellicent, one of the best spinblockers in OU.
Then you see that Starmie's best option against Rotom-W is T-bolt and that Starmie can't touch Gastrodon, has trouble with Virizion, and finally, Starmie has a bit of 4MMS.

You have to run Hydro Pump/Surf.
Then you either run T-bolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, HP Fire, Recover or Psychic.
They all bring their own set of problems.

You can either have an offensive Starmie that kinda sucks at spinning.
You can have a better Spinning Starmie with Rapid Spin and Recover, but it'll get walled easily.
You can have a Water STAB/HP Fire/T-bolt/Rapid Spin Starmie, but it's still easily walled by Dragons.

Basically, you decide whether Starmie is walled by Dragons and some other things(that easily proceed to set up and rape you) or you make your Starmie a so-so spinner.
Regardless, Starmie constantly relies on SE attacks because 100 Sp.Attack isn't exactly amazing this gen.
 
AccidentalGreed said:
| 1 | Scizor | 125243 | 29.250% | 105078 | 29.445% |
| 3 | Rotom-W | 95652 | 22.339% | 85785 | 24.039% |

How despicably obnoxious.

Nothing actually changed much...except the abnormal rising usage of Gorebyss, Quagsire, and Terrakion. Perhaps Ninetales and Bronzong are the real losers in terms of actual usage in OU.
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What's even worse:

| 1 | Scizor | 8061 | 39.811% | 6863 | 39.203% |
| 2 | Rotom-W | 7910 | 39.066% | 7243 | 41.374% |

When I got into the 200's on an alt, I saw this on a huge amount of teams. I don't know if I'm being overdramatic about it, but its sickening when by my estimate, 35% of battles I'm going to see the same freaking combo.

On topic of Starmie, she is definitively an OU poke. Starmie so much coverage to the table that the one coverage she lacks can easily be covered by one of her teammates. The massive holes she can cause in the opposing team once their Sp. De wall is gone is massive, since she can outspeed every non-scarfed Pokemon. She makes a pretty good scarfer herself with access to trick and outspeeding Terrakion and taking out those +1 Dragons, but her other sets are way better.
 
Starmie is absolutely amazing on Rain teams. Yeah, it's mediocre outside of Rain, but in Rain its an utter monster. First of all, offensive Starmie is the way to go. Hydro Pump/Thunder/Spin/Recover is the way to go because Water/Electric coverage is simply amazing.

Non-bulky Starmie does not suck at spinning because it outspeeds just about everything in OU without a boost, so it can just Spin before it dies. It can Recover any health lost due to LO against Waters, and Hydro Pump can dent Dragons. Trust me, if an offensive Rain team wants a Spinner to protect the TOrnadus that should be on every team, Starmie is better than TentaUSEMEONSTALLONLY

And so what if it isn't killing Ferrothorn. You do a good 40% with a Rain boosted LO Hydro Pump, which means that you can easily pick off a weakened one, and why are you NOT using LO on Starmie? Dragons will not "set up and rape you". Hydro Pump 2KOs most of them after SR, and you can have five other Pokemon to kill a Dragon...it's even easier in Rain. Dragonite isn't beating Ferrothorn in Rain at 35% health... You also have a 30% chance to paralyze them with Thunder.
 
Kefka Palazzo™ said:
But then you realize that Starmie doesn't have a good way to beat Ferrothorn(without using HP Fire, but I'll get to that later) and you need a LO to be able to 2HKO Jellicent, one of the best spinblockers in OU.
Then you see that Starmie's best option against Rotom-W is T-bolt and that Starmie can't touch Gastrodon, has trouble with Virizion, and finally, Starmie has a bit of 4MMS.

You have to run Hydro Pump/Surf.
Then you either run T-bolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, HP Fire, Recover or Psychic.
They all bring their own set of problems.

You can either have an offensive Starmie that kinda sucks at spinning.
You can have a better Spinning Starmie with Rapid Spin and Recover, but it'll get walled easily.
You can have a Water STAB/HP Fire/T-bolt/Rapid Spin Starmie, but it's still easily walled by Dragons.

Basically, you decide whether Starmie is walled by Dragons and some other things(that easily proceed to set up and rape you) or you make your Starmie a so-so spinner.
Regardless, Starmie constantly relies on SE attacks because 100 Sp.Attack isn't exactly amazing this gen.
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Starmie doesn't necessarily need to run Rapid Spin. A set consisting of Hydro Pump/T-Bolt(or Thunder)/Ice Beam/HP Fire gives it the superb coverage it needs to succeed, even with its average Special Attack. Rapid Spin is a luxury Starmie has, but there's no reason to waste a movelsot on it if your team doesn't mind hazards.

As for the Scizor/Rotom combo, it's annoying, but it's not broken by any stretch of the imagination. Both of them have a fair amount of checks. Just off the top of my head, Magnezone can shut both of them down effectively.
 
2sly4u said:
Starmie doesn't necessarily need to run Rapid Spin. A set consisting of Hydro Pump/T-Bolt(or Thunder)/Ice Beam/HP Fire gives it the superb coverage it needs to succeed, even with its average Special Attack. Rapid Spin is a luxury Starmie has, but there's no reason to waste a movelsot on it if your team doesn't mind hazards.
Click to expand...

I was talking about Starmie as a Spinner, therefore that set DOES need to run Rapid Spin.

Starmie is absolutely amazing on Rain teams. Yeah, it's mediocre outside of Rain, but in Rain its an utter monster. First of all, offensive Starmie is the way to go. Hydro Pump/Thunder/Spin/Recover is the way to go because Water/Electric coverage is simply amazing.

Non-bulky Starmie does not suck at spinning because it outspeeds just about everything in OU without a boost, so it can just Spin before it dies. It can Recover any health lost due to LO against Waters, and Hydro Pump can dent Dragons. Trust me, if an offensive Rain team wants a Spinner to protect the TOrnadus that should be on every team, Starmie is better than TentaUSEMEONSTALLONLY

And so what if it isn't killing Ferrothorn. You do a good 40% with a Rain boosted LO Hydro Pump, which means that you can easily pick off a weakened one, and why are you NOT using LO on Starmie? Dragons will not "set up and rape you". Hydro Pump 2KOs most of them after SR, and you can have five other Pokemon to kill a Dragon...it's even easier in Rain. Dragonite isn't beating Ferrothorn in Rain at 35% health... You also have a 30% chance to paralyze them with Thunder.
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Offensive Starmie isn't a reliable spinner(I wasn't even talking about Rain, so Thunder isn't an option). That was my point.
Try using a Spin-dependent team and then Offensive Starmie isn't looking too good because you might need multiple spins and Starmie is so frail that you'd be better off using something else.

Then comes FerroCent and the LO.
Ferrothorn will pretty much guarantee that if Starmie spins, it's taking a load of damage just by using Rapid Spin.
Then Starmie has a choice:

- Switch out and let him set up hazards again.
- Risk getting OHKO'd by Power Whip the next turn, therefore losing your spinner.

Then Jellicent comes and blocks your spins. Not too bad, since you could recover, but again, without a LO you might not 2HKO Jellicent. Then there are those Jellicent that just want to see your Starmie die and run Shadow Ball just to be evil :*(

Finally, the LO. Not an item I like to run on something I'm going to constantly rely on, especially when I rely on the pokemon's spinning ability.


Now, it definitely DOES matter if Ferrothorn switches in, because unless your using Rain(I never even mentioned Rain at all) you're going to lose a good chunk of HP and be forced out as you watch him set up hazards again. It also matters when a Dragon switches in because you definitely won't be 2HKOing Dragonite(and maybe even Haxorus) without Ice Beam.
Then they set up and you have another problem.


My point was that Starmie isn't a reliable spinner. Offensive Starmie in Rain is dangerous. Plain Offensive Starmie can be dangerous. Spinner Starmie isn't a reliable spinner for teams that need it.
 
Kefka Palazzo™ said:
My point was that Starmie isn't a reliable spinner. Offensive Starmie in Rain is dangerous. Plain Offensive Starmie can be dangerous. Spinner Starmie isn't a reliable spinner for teams that need it.
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Maybe not reliable in the sense that it can spin multiple times a match, but it's the only good spinner for offensive teams. Your only other viable options are Forry and Tentacruel, neither of which fit an offense-driven play style. Starmie also has a great shot at getting off one Rapid Spin since it can reliably beat Jellicent (with LO) and Gengar.

I'll admit it has issues with Ferro, but basically every Spinner not named Hitmontop does as well, and Hitmontop suffers from the same "can't beat its counters" problems as Starmie (not to mention that besides RS it's grossly outclassed by most other fighting types).
 
I don't understand about Scizor it's easily countered by standard Special Nidoking. Also glad to see Mamo finally move up to OU. Also Scrafty will be too good for UU if it moves down.
 
jsney20 said:
I don't understand about Scizor it's easily countered by standard Special Nidoking. Also glad to see Mamo finally move up to OU. Also Scrafty will be too good for UU if it moves down.
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Huh? Bullet Punch (I think) OHKOs with a Life Orb and no boosts, so how does that counter it?
 
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