What are the advantages that arcanine have over buzzwole/ corviknight/ skarmory?welp, all I see is nominations for tier shifts for mons that are in the list already, so time for some fresh air with a new nomination.
everyone's favorite legendary doggo!
View attachment 408675
no, not you
View attachment 408676
ew hell no, not you either
---
View attachment 408677
good boi :)
okay on a more serious note now, this may come as quite a surprise to all of you, but I truly feel like Arcanine could use a spot on the list.
to C-
In a meta full of strong physical attackers, a Pokémon that can shut several commons ones down completely and cripple a handful of others on switch-in, can prove itself very useful. Especially with common mons such asand
, it's nice to have a proper answer to them. Even though 90 / 80 / 80 doesn't seem like amazing stats for a defensive-oriented Pokemon, having one of the best abilities in the game in Intimidate really does reasonably make up for it.
I'd like to quickly summarize what you will further be seeing in this post:
- The set it uses;
- What it is useful for, including calculations;
- Team(mate)s for it;
- Relevant replays and short additional descriptions;
- Overview of its two (/three) strong drawbacks, I will also talk about these earlier in this post;
- Final conclusion;
Set
Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Teleport
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower / (Flare Blitz)
Will-O-Wisp is absolutely the move to go for over Toxic, since it strongly stimulates Arcanine's role as a physically defensive Pokemon by halving the target's physical move power. This works especially well in combination with Intimidate, which already lowers the targets Attack stat by one stage upon switchin. The additional great thing with Arcanine is, is that with its typing, it lures in Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Urshifu-R, Dragonite, Chomp, Pex and the Slowtwins, all of which hate being hit on the switch with a burn. Especially offensive variants of the former five of this list are truly crippled by this, as it forces them to either set up several SD's to compensate (which takes several turns) or simply lose its breaking power, making them easier handled by teammates. There is Aroma / HBell ofc, but I feel like it's not really that common in the metagame except on maybe stall or BO Dnite's.
Don't necessarily feel the need to elaborate on Teleport; great pivoting move gaining momentum and allowing safe switchins for frail, offensive teammates that really can't afford to take hits, whilst Arcanine can.
Morning Sun, whilst only having 8 PP, provides Arcanine with recovery in case it needs it to stay healthy throughout the game and ensures it can properly execute its role. This is one of its two (three) major drawbacks: 8 PP isn't great, but acceptable - the fact that Morning Sun is affected by weather is heavily detrimental, which in three of the four cases means it will only heal 25% of its health by using this move in rain, sand or hail. Obviously, sun is great for it, healing 2/3 instead, but yeah let's face it, sun is the least viable of the weathers and is barely used. On the contrary, rain (teams Arcanine really doesn't do well against at all for obvious reasons) is way more used, and I see sand/hail regularly as well. Thankfully, weather spam is not as common as it was back in generation 5 (all hail the frog).
Last slot is reserved for an offensive move. I definitely prefer Flamethrower because of it not having any recoil that would harm Arcanine's ability as a physically defensive mon, in addition to hitting physically defensive Pokemon like Melmetal, Buzzwole and Tangrowth much harder. It also avoids contact on Ferro and CorvSkarms Rocky Helmet and negates Iron Defense. Flare Blitz could be used for one that likes more breaking power and also being able to hit the (nowadays less common) egg for reasonable damage.
The EVs are obv. mostly invested in Defense to maximize Arcanine's defensive capabilities (fun fact: it avoids the 2HKO from scarf Lele's psyshock), whilst the Speed EVs allow it to reach a stat of 241, outspeeding several Pokémon around the 240 mark.
Set Usability
Arcanine is a proper Pokémon for checking some of the most threatening physical attackers in the metagame. This includes cleaners such as Weavile, Kartana, and Zeraora, but it also properly deals with other physically offensive Pokémon such as Melmetal, Rillaboom, Hawlucha, the odd Scizor, and even Bisharp (even though Defiant may leave you guessing otherwise).
Most of these defensive Pokémon lack any kind of proper defensive capabilities, but Arcanine has a respectable special Attack of 100 and Attack of 110, meaning it can also get rid of several other common defensive Pokémon, including Ferrothorn (let's face it, it's also everywhere), the metal birds (Corviknight / Skarmory), Tangrowth and Buzzwole. With this attack power and its 95 Speed stat, it also manages to check Magnezone.
As listed, here will be some relevant calculations against the Pokémon it is supposed to be used against:
* note: I accidentely used a spread of 252 / 198+ whilst making the calculations. The differences are neglectable however.
Defensive:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 233-274 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Revenge OHKO or heal to weaken the damage, turning it into a 3HKO)
-1 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 88-105 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (around 2% chance to KO with the second hit if no heal)
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 168+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 239-282 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 270-321 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- not a KO
-1 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO
fun thing it also heavily cripples phys leftovers Pult by switching in on DD, burning it, also being able to take the second hit, heal and pivot out:
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 204-242 (53.1 - 63%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- approx. 4HKO
not advisable though, band and lo also beat it.
Offensive
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 924-1092 (356.7 - 421.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (close call)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 236-282 (56 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 122-146 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (rather weak, but it still wins)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 212-252 (75.1 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Rocky Helmet is guaranteed 2HKO)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 258-306 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 340-408 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 320-380 (81.4 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Scizor: 420-496 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 118-139 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Teams
I feel like Arcanine does well on BO teams that need a defensive answer to physical Ice/Steel/Grass types whilst also appreciating the momentum Arcanine creates to get the true attackers in properly. That being said, it does need a bit of support itself.
Defog or Spin is absolutely mandatory as your HDB will most likely be knocked off by opposing Weavile, Rillaboom and Kartana, mons you'll be willing to switch into. Arcanine is of course weak to Stealth Rock, and it really can't have 25% of its HP being lowered on switch in as it will lower the amount of Pokémon it checks. Rotom-Wash does this exceptionally well, considering it also covers Arcanine's type weaknesses in Ground and Water and can create momentum with VSwitch as well. Other Defoggers that provide momentum, such as Corviknight, can also fulfill this role well.
A specially defensive Pokémon that can switch in and take strong special attacks that Arcanine may struggle against (even though scarf Blace for example only 3HKOes - but Arcanine can't do much back), whilst also providing momentum, works excellent for it. Slowking and even Blissey are two good examples.
Replays:
Before I tilted due to my own poor plays, I was using Arcanine successfully around the 1600-1800 mark. Most of the replays are from games against similarly ranked players.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510090848-8sfx3ttrq68ljw31ejpz7nce1k7wx1epw
In this replay Arcanine effectively burns Chomp on Scale Shot whilst they predicted me to switch because of Intimidate. Additionally, it handled phys Pult and picked off both Koko and Alolatales.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510698285-8o1wzn98jq25tw26zy4h1usm6f3fyqopw
Here it effectively burned Shifu on switch-in, also properly handling Weavile.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510737666-jtqf09ujy4nd90derp86ohavh26lt4gpw
Dealing with Zeraora (and Weavile, even though they forfeited) late game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1511361549-vo2fxrwi2bzei95hpsi38tmf4ujmet1pw
Again late-game, beating Kartana and Buzzwole with a little bit help of Tangrowth. I should've been more careful not to let Arcanine get poisoned right here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1512221030-9fp9l5wf23wvjmqkfhznbfq0cqi376dpw
Burning Lando-T on switch in, and also again late-game, dealing with Weavile, Zeraora, and defeating Corviknight.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1513322864-r5nqkl208atesnod7veu7frdtmnfig4pw
Burning Chomp, shitting on Zera, Rilla and Melm as well. Also don't judge my use of Rhydon this game, it was just for fun (maybe also why I lost many points!) :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1515552490-xeggimvw0tnj0nf6j47wuadhn3wgd3tpw
playing around the Bisharp, late-game handling Rillaboom and Zeraora.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516443446-0hs9fre0tixjrzng2nxm3di21dkvnfvpw
crippling / beating four mons again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516620258-flmng5sc06ffyl2en1jn8g0nsczepwvpw
dealing with half the team again
Drawbacks
I've shortly pointed out Arcanine's main two / three (heavy) drawbacks:
- Stealth Rock weakness, of course you have HDB but you'll be switching into mons using Knock Off (so it requires Defog (or spin)! But synergizes well with several that do this)
- Morning Sun being weather affected (I feel like this is its strongest con. Thankfully weather isn't permanent. You're going to massively enjoy the occasional sun though).
- Morning Sun's 8 PP, but in practice for me it's usually been enough.
Conclusion
I truly feel like Arcanine has reasons to be used in the OU metagame for all the reasons I listed above. Intimidate, bulk, alright offensive presence for a defensive Pokemon, speed, decent recovery, and Teleport. I hope you'll consider testing it and enjoying it yourself, as I have definitely done so.
Thanks for reading and have a wonderful day!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
1. Not being trapped.
2. Completely different weaknesses.
3. WoW.
4. Teleport slow pivoting.
5. Intimidate supports the team.
6. Checks mixed Arctzolt better.
7. Not smashed by Aerial Ace Kartana.
8. Can come into Victini and pivot out.
Probably has more. This is not a support to the nomination, since I haven't actually tried or seen Arcanine in SS OU. But from theorycall point of view it is not outclassed by the mentioned Mons, since it's very different from them.
Basically this. WoW, Intimidate and Teleport are its main features in my opinion. The former two massively decrease the damage output of physical attackers, some of which it also lures in (especially burn, since halving move power is more useful than halving the attack stat), whilst also being able to provide momentum after luring checked Pokemon out, for frail mons such as Kart and Blace to come in against mons such as Slowbro and basically get a free hit on something. To do so, it of course does need to have enough health, but without rocks, it usually takes only around ~25% from mons it checks anyway, and even less if they're burned.
First post on a smogon thread. Here are my noms:
Blacephalon: to A/A+
This mon has a good match up against everything lol. Choice specs overheat and shadow ball has no switches in except Ttar and blissey (but they fear trick). Blace appreciates the rise of flame body tran which allows a 2HKO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 168-198 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 406-479 (105.1 - 124%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
And a last one to show its pure firepower:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 289-342 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
In fact blace does a kill each time it comes and its only drawback is its weakness to SR, but nothing is perfect.
Landorus-Therian: Stay S
Lando shouldn't rise as the meta is just to adapted to it. There's many mons that run an ice/water type coverage only to beat lando like ice punch/ice beam Ttar or Dnite or Hpump Dragapult. Moreover, Lando hasn't an infinite staying power and is passive agains most of the OU's defoggers like zapdos or Corv, whereas they can toxic it or pivot on it.
Nidoking: to B+ or higher
Nidoking's coverage hits the entire meta and does a kill each time it switches in. That's all.
Blacephalon: to A/A+
This mon has a good match up against everything lol. Choice specs overheat and shadow ball has no switches in except Ttar and blissey (but they fear trick). Blace appreciates the rise of flame body tran which allows a 2HKO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 168-198 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 406-479 (105.1 - 124%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
And a last one to show its pure firepower:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 289-342 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
In fact blace does a kill each time it comes and its only drawback is its weakness to SR, but nothing is perfect.
Landorus-Therian: Stay S
Lando shouldn't rise as the meta is just to adapted to it. There's many mons that run an ice/water type coverage only to beat lando like ice punch/ice beam Ttar or Dnite or Hpump Dragapult. Moreover, Lando hasn't an infinite staying power and is passive agains most of the OU's defoggers like zapdos or Corv, whereas they can toxic it or pivot on it.
Nidoking: to B+ or higher
Nidoking's coverage hits the entire meta and does a kill each time it switches in. That's all.
I do not feel like Lando is the best mon rn. Its still Lando granted, but Weavile and Tran I feel are more meta defining atm. Alot of meta trends center around dealing with Balloon Tran and Weavile. We’ve seen trends like SD Aqua Tail Chomp and Flash Cannon Trans to combat Offensive Tran. The likes of Slowking, Dnite, Washtom, and Fini have risen in usage in order to check. CB Weavile has no true counters that don’t get worn down throughout a game, very reminiscent of Gen 5 Specs Latios, while SD variants are hard to wear down and is still threatening. Ferro has been running more PhysD to check it while in response, Band Weav sometimes ran Beat Up to avoid residual dmg. Buzzwole has risen in usage to check the many physical attackers of the tier, specifically Weavile. However then you realize it gets 2HKOd by Band Triple Axel and can lose its Helmet/Boots to Knock. Every team already has an answer for Lando by default and is nowhere near as offensively threatening as the other two. It can lose its lefties, be chipped down, and poisoned. The SPL usage of Toxic Koko andoes not help matters at all. Scarf is niche at best and offensive variants are too slow for the fast paced metagame. Weavile is so easy to slap onto teams due to it being the team’s speed control, wincon, and breaker. Tran can force progress whether it is offensive or defensive. Sorry that this turned out to be a college essay but there was so much to talk about in regards to these three.
I find Melm to be not splashable enough to be placed in A+ rank. One main issue I have come across with Melm is that it does not provide much utility besides breaking potential. Tran sets up rocks, Ferro has hazards + knock, Corv has defog + slow u-turn, and Kart offers speed control. Another problem with Melm is that each of its sets have major issues. Pads is the best set rn but it gets worn down quickly and gets Knock’d by some of the mons it wants to switch in. AV gets worn down too quickly while risking getting crippled by barbs or Zapdos Static. Lefties sets slightly minimize its issue of being worn down quickly but the set is also easier to play around. It also doesn’t help that Ferro is one of the best mons rn. Not to mention the rise of Volcanion and Nidoking.
Speaking of steels that aren’t as good as they used to be, Corv has seen better days. Rilla usage is at an all time low while the usage of Koko, Nihi, Tran are at an all time how. Its mu vs SD Rocks Chomp is rather awkward since trying to hit Chomp makes it take chip dmg, while defogging it hazards away only gives Chomp setup opportunities. Rocks Tran beats it ez. It also can’t check the mons it is supposed to. Lele does a ton with Specs Psychic, SD Kart nukes it with Knock or Sacred Sword, Chomp just doesn’t give a shit about it. Corv also brings in too many dangerous threats in if it tries to defog the hazards off, if it clicks U-Turn the hazards stay up. It also sucks as a defensive steel since it loses to Weavile and Nihi. Maybe in the future where BU Corv is completely busted will it be A+/A material again.
It is a crime that after the success it has been getting in SPL lately it is still not in A-. Every check to it bar Gastrodon gets chipped down or trapped by Zone throughout the course of a game. I have also been using Scarf Nihi which checks Koko, Weavile, Torn, Zapdos, Pult, Fini, and Volcarona, all while threatening everything that isn’t a steel type, Chomp, or a specially defensive bulky water.
Reuniclus is a shadow of its Gen 7 self. It has very little setup opportunities due to how hard hitting and fast paced the meta has become. Weavile and Pult being commonplace doesn’t help, and neither is the fact that nearly every offensive threat can threaten a 2HKO even after a CM. If you want a Magic Guard CM wincon with defensive utility, use Clefable.
Toad offers alot on rain teams. Sets up rocks, electric immunity, can knock items off, all while posing an offensive threat. Being able to switch into Offensive Tran and Nihi is also great atm.
These two should swap places. Bulu’s defensive utility is more important rn that Rilla’s Knock Off and U-Turn. Rilla is harder to splash on teams since it lacks any useful resistances besides Water, and Ground. For Speed Control and Knock, Kart is a better choice, considering it also can take hits from Ferro. Bulu hits slightly harder than Rilla while being a better check to Rapid-Strike and SD Chomp. Plus it has the coverage to smack Torn and Zapdos on the switch, forcing options.
Meteor Beam Steela is awkward to deal with. In virtue of its bulk and defensive typing, it has even more setup opportunities than its jellier counterpart. Being able to setup on Slowbro, Lele, Lando, Ferro, Chomp, and more is huge. We’ve seen double Meteor Beam cores on HO that show how dangerous it is when paired with fellow Meteor Beam enthusiast Nihilego. What is scarier is that it has the coverage to hit the usual checks to Nihilego. Flamethrower for steels and Air Slash to smack everything else. Tran running more offensive sets is also great for it.
What does this thing check other than Demon Mew, Slowtwins, and Ferro? Why is this Dark type weak to Pult’s U-Turn and Blace’s Fire STABs? Why not use Kart? The meta is too fast paced for its stallbreaking potential, and it is incredibly difficult to splash on teams just to deal with three mons.
Cresselia is only a tr mon and thus should be ranked along with the tr mons.
The meta is too fast paced and hazard + Knock heavy for Suicune to perform its role. Also outdone by CM Fini. If
A spinner and Weavile check that hates Knock and hazards? No thank you.
After messing around with WP + double dance, I doubt this thing is on the same tier as Toxtricity and A-Wak. Its a surprisingly good cleaner on HO due to how many mons it can setup on. Offensive Tran, Slowtwins, Volcanion, and Urshifu. Thanks to its decent bulk, it can start up a sweep on the likes of Clef, Fini, Koko and things with U-Turn or Knock. It even 1v1s Scarf Lele since it lives a Moonblast and smacks it back with Stored Power if it gets an Agility. Ferro running more physical bulk and Tran running more offensive sets makes it even more threatening. It dislikes Weavile, but Ice Shard does not kill it behind Veil. Some players have tested out Specs sets which can switch into Tran and Volcanion, then threaten to break a hole, however outside of that it gets outshined by Specs Lele.
Attachments
Disagree: Melmetal has been the premiere mon in my first apprentice program team, and it's such a star. Airfare really showed me the potential of ToxTect Melmetal. Able to Toxic on things that like to swap into Melm like Bro, completely stunting their potential in the game. Even without using Toxic, protect to scout Scarf Kart, Specs Pult among other things like stalling weather/trick room is amazing. Its bulk allows it to check a large majority of the tier and strike back ten-fold. As long as you have something that can threaten things like Corviknight and Ferrothorn like Volcanion, Melmetal can toxic walls it can't kill, and DIB the ones it can while EQing some strong steels like Magnezone and Heatran.A+ > A
I find Melm to be not splashable enough to be placed in A+ rank. One main issue I have come across with Melm is that it does not provide much utility besides breaking potential. Tran sets up rocks, Ferro has hazards + knock, Corv has defog + slow u-turn, and Kart offers speed control. Another problem with Melm is that each of its sets have major issues. Pads is the best set rn but it gets worn down quickly and gets Knock’d by some of the mons it wants to switch in. AV gets worn down too quickly while risking getting crippled by barbs or Zapdos Static. Lefties sets slightly minimize its issue of being worn down quickly but the set is also easier to play around. It also doesn’t help that Ferro is one of the best mons rn. Not to mention the rise of Volcanion and Nidoking.
Not to mention the still viable sets like Pads and the ever-destructive Banded Melm which easily 2HKOs Ferrothorn with Superpower, forcing a swap or getting the kill on Ferro, letting it DIB later in the future to decimate the opponents team. Even with Volcano and Nidoking, Melmetal still has its place in A+ imo
Back for some (mostly drop) noms and I'll give my opinion on some recent ones too ig.
+ to S 
to A+
Much like others, I feel like atm the S- rank is unnecessarily bloating the rankings. Heatran and Weavile are extremely dominant in the tier and have bridged the gap in viability between them and Lando considerably with different sets like Air Balloon and Choice Band gaining more prominence than before. I do still however believe that Landorus-T is still the best mon in the tier by virtue of its utility being almost irreplaceable on the majority of viable ss ou teams. Ferrothorn is still a great mon but I feel it is still a step below the others in S- rank partly because it feels slightly easier to exploit, and I don't think the gap in viability between it and the A+ rank mons is large enough to warrant a tier of its own.
+
to A-
I notice a pretty big gap in quality and consistency between these mons and the rest of the A rank. Slowking-galar is great but I feel like the list of special attackers it gets exploited by just keeps growing and its not the blanket check it once was. Trending moltres-g in particular with its meaty spdef stat and strong offensive pressure poses a problem, and its a flimsy volcanion check at best. air balloon tran also counters eq sets and physical dragapult sets that 2hko it more reliably makes it a bit less reliable than before. The rise in slowbro usage also gives it competition as a fs user, one in which slowbro seems to be winning. In the future I expect a lot more ppl to start using its johto counterpart more because it deals with air balloon tran, lele, and volcanion much more easily, while also packing fs with momentum grabbing in teleport. As for volcarona, my biggest gripe with using it is that along with heatran's prominence, on around 70% of viable teams you face you're gonna have to deal with a spdef lando that reliably deals with volcarona unless you have some decent chip on it. Dragonite and volcanion are also on the uptick, along with hurricane users, physical dragapult and its constant struggle with urshifu's aqua jet killing it with minor chip. All of these factors are leaving less and less breathing room for volcarona to comfortably sweep.
to C+
This looks harsh but hear me out this mon is not good, at all. Demon mew has fallen off hard with weavile's defining presence and other bulky wincons like clefable and fini being much more reliable (in particular the former). Non-ho spikes teams just want ferrothorn and spikes ho is generally worse than other forms of ho like screens anyway. This leaves mew in an awkward spot of an incredibly inconsistent wincon along with an ok lead slot on some decent hos, nowhere near B+ rank worthy. I would maybe put it in B- but I'll explain why not later.
to C+
Defensive scizor barely handles weavile and does literally nothing else well and I haven't really seen offensive scizor actually gaining traction, it seems like mostly theorymon, so down it goes. Onto the big one.
Scrapping the B- rank: It's already a small rank, and the rank itself is made up of mons that could fit comfortably in B or C+ imho. Bold idea ik but I think it’s a good one. I seriously think that it’s something to be considered because nearly everything in that rank looks out of place, you’ve got garbage like rotom-h hanging out with beasts like seismitoad.
to B
Y'all know my thoughts on this mon already. Underrated sweeper/breaker, appreciates downtick in rilla usage, and still loves lando going spdef>def investment.
to C+
Handles lele really well but doesn't really do much else other than making you more weak to pult/weavile/gmoltres than you'd be if you picked a different steel.
to C+
Some one else nommed this down and I agree with what they said about the competition from clefable along with not much room for bulky psychics to set up in this meta (see my mew nom).
to C
This thing is really bad imo. Hail isn't what it was a couple months ago and it never really should've ended up in the B ranks in the first place. Its defensive utility really pales in comparison to rotom-w and its not good enough of a breaker to justify its relatively poor speed and bulk.
to B
Easiest nom to make. Seismitoad is a top tier rain abuser on par with barraskewda and provides much appreciated role compression with electric immunity+rocks to the archetype. Both life orb rocks and choice specs are strong sets, and it can fit techs like power whip or knock off to support teammates or bypass its own traditional checks.
to B
This was the only mon i really found suited B- and I wasn’t quite sure which direction to go with it so I tried it out myself. I have come to appreciate bulu’s unique qualities that sometimes warrant a teamslot over rilla thanks to added defensive utility and coverage. However, I do still think rilla is overall the better mon because of grassy glide’s offensive utility when it comes to revenge killing, as well as knock off support being really good. So I’ll follow up with a nom of
to B+. I’ve seen people say that if you want terrain support you use bulu and if you want revenge killing and knock off u go scarf kart and I really disagree with that sentiment. The whole reason to use rillaboom is combining those qualities. Its main advantage as a revenge killer is not having to be choice locked while “outspeeding” everything with grassy glide. Swords dance sets also differentiate themselves from kartana and bulu by being much, much harder to revenge kill, meaning once you’ve got torn/zapdos into the crucial range of a +2 glide (not too difficult to do if you knock off and get rocks up since offensive zapdos is more prominent now), there isn’t much stopping you from completing a sweep. Overall both grassy terrain mons form strong cores with heatran and any other mons that appreciate added passive healing.
Thoughts on other noms:
+ to S to A+Much like others, I feel like atm the S- rank is unnecessarily bloating the rankings. Heatran and Weavile are extremely dominant in the tier and have bridged the gap in viability between them and Lando considerably with different sets like Air Balloon and Choice Band gaining more prominence than before. I do still however believe that Landorus-T is still the best mon in the tier by virtue of its utility being almost irreplaceable on the majority of viable ss ou teams. Ferrothorn is still a great mon but I feel it is still a step below the others in S- rank partly because it feels slightly easier to exploit, and I don't think the gap in viability between it and the A+ rank mons is large enough to warrant a tier of its own.
+ to A-I notice a pretty big gap in quality and consistency between these mons and the rest of the A rank. Slowking-galar is great but I feel like the list of special attackers it gets exploited by just keeps growing and its not the blanket check it once was. Trending moltres-g in particular with its meaty spdef stat and strong offensive pressure poses a problem, and its a flimsy volcanion check at best. air balloon tran also counters eq sets and physical dragapult sets that 2hko it more reliably makes it a bit less reliable than before. The rise in slowbro usage also gives it competition as a fs user, one in which slowbro seems to be winning. In the future I expect a lot more ppl to start using its johto counterpart more because it deals with air balloon tran, lele, and volcanion much more easily, while also packing fs with momentum grabbing in teleport. As for volcarona, my biggest gripe with using it is that along with heatran's prominence, on around 70% of viable teams you face you're gonna have to deal with a spdef lando that reliably deals with volcarona unless you have some decent chip on it. Dragonite and volcanion are also on the uptick, along with hurricane users, physical dragapult and its constant struggle with urshifu's aqua jet killing it with minor chip. All of these factors are leaving less and less breathing room for volcarona to comfortably sweep.
to C+This looks harsh but hear me out this mon is not good, at all. Demon mew has fallen off hard with weavile's defining presence and other bulky wincons like clefable and fini being much more reliable (in particular the former). Non-ho spikes teams just want ferrothorn and spikes ho is generally worse than other forms of ho like screens anyway. This leaves mew in an awkward spot of an incredibly inconsistent wincon along with an ok lead slot on some decent hos, nowhere near B+ rank worthy. I would maybe put it in B- but I'll explain why not later.
to C+Defensive scizor barely handles weavile and does literally nothing else well and I haven't really seen offensive scizor actually gaining traction, it seems like mostly theorymon, so down it goes. Onto the big one.
Scrapping the B- rank: It's already a small rank, and the rank itself is made up of mons that could fit comfortably in B or C+ imho. Bold idea ik but I think it’s a good one. I seriously think that it’s something to be considered because nearly everything in that rank looks out of place, you’ve got garbage like rotom-h hanging out with beasts like seismitoad.
to BY'all know my thoughts on this mon already. Underrated sweeper/breaker, appreciates downtick in rilla usage, and still loves lando going spdef>def investment.
to C+Handles lele really well but doesn't really do much else other than making you more weak to pult/weavile/gmoltres than you'd be if you picked a different steel.
to C+Some one else nommed this down and I agree with what they said about the competition from clefable along with not much room for bulky psychics to set up in this meta (see my mew nom).
to CThis thing is really bad imo. Hail isn't what it was a couple months ago and it never really should've ended up in the B ranks in the first place. Its defensive utility really pales in comparison to rotom-w and its not good enough of a breaker to justify its relatively poor speed and bulk.
to BEasiest nom to make. Seismitoad is a top tier rain abuser on par with barraskewda and provides much appreciated role compression with electric immunity+rocks to the archetype. Both life orb rocks and choice specs are strong sets, and it can fit techs like power whip or knock off to support teammates or bypass its own traditional checks.
to BThis was the only mon i really found suited B- and I wasn’t quite sure which direction to go with it so I tried it out myself. I have come to appreciate bulu’s unique qualities that sometimes warrant a teamslot over rilla thanks to added defensive utility and coverage. However, I do still think rilla is overall the better mon because of grassy glide’s offensive utility when it comes to revenge killing, as well as knock off support being really good. So I’ll follow up with a nom of
to B+. I’ve seen people say that if you want terrain support you use bulu and if you want revenge killing and knock off u go scarf kart and I really disagree with that sentiment. The whole reason to use rillaboom is combining those qualities. Its main advantage as a revenge killer is not having to be choice locked while “outspeeding” everything with grassy glide. Swords dance sets also differentiate themselves from kartana and bulu by being much, much harder to revenge kill, meaning once you’ve got torn/zapdos into the crucial range of a +2 glide (not too difficult to do if you knock off and get rocks up since offensive zapdos is more prominent now), there isn’t much stopping you from completing a sweep. Overall both grassy terrain mons form strong cores with heatran and any other mons that appreciate added passive healing.Thoughts on other noms:
I think nihilego is a fine mon (I was using it before it was cool) but I don’t think it’s worthy of A-, and I disagree with the bolded statement in particular. While yes nihilego has been seeing a lot of usage in spl, it’s winrate is… well ~20%. That is horrendous no matter how you slice it, especially with how much it’s been used. My best guess is that while it’s true the only things that handle it well are spdef waters, steels, and grounds resistant to rock (along with eq/psyshock slowking-g and blissey) these mons aren’t exactly rare and so nihilego has to wait, often more than it likes, for these mons to be weakened. Only then can nihilego have a real influence on a game since these mons, particularly steels and chomp, handle it so decisively.
Back all four of these and I would even go a bit further and put celesteela in B and unrank avalugg (whose niche seems completely theoretical and not actually used).
Back this 100% love a good doggo. Seriously tho i think its access to teleport is really underrated and helps differentiate itself from other physical walls like buzzwole. Take this situation for example, choice scarf kart just locked into smart strike as you switched into buzzwole/arcanine and it does p pitiful damage, if its buzzwole you have to make a risky double to take advantage of the incoming tapu fini/clefable, but with arcanine you can teleport out for guaranteed value.welp, all I see is nominations for tier shifts for mons that are in the list already, so time for some fresh air with a new nomination.
everyone's favorite legendary doggo!
View attachment 408675
no, not you
View attachment 408676
ew hell no, not you either
---
View attachment 408677
good boi :)
okay on a more serious note now, this may come as quite a surprise to all of you, but I truly feel like Arcanine could use a spot on the list.
In a meta full of strong physical attackers, a Pokémon that can shut several commons ones down completely and cripple a handful of others on switch-in, can prove itself very useful. Especially with common mons such as
I'd like to quickly summarize what you will further be seeing in this post:
- The set it uses;
- What it is useful for, including calculations;
- Team(mate)s for it;
- Relevant replays and short additional descriptions;
- Overview of its two (/three) strong drawbacks, I will also talk about these earlier in this post;
- Final conclusion;
Set
Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Teleport
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower / (Flare Blitz)
Will-O-Wisp is absolutely the move to go for over Toxic, since it strongly stimulates Arcanine's role as a physically defensive Pokemon by halving the target's physical move power. This works especially well in combination with Intimidate, which already lowers the targets Attack stat by one stage upon switchin. The additional great thing with Arcanine is, is that with its typing, it lures in Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Urshifu-R, Dragonite, Chomp, Pex and the Slowtwins, all of which hate being hit on the switch with a burn. Especially offensive variants of the former five of this list are truly crippled by this, as it forces them to either set up several SD's to compensate (which takes several turns) or simply lose its breaking power, making them easier handled by teammates. There is Aroma / HBell ofc, but I feel like it's not really that common in the metagame except on maybe stall or BO Dnite's.
Don't necessarily feel the need to elaborate on Teleport; great pivoting move gaining momentum and allowing safe switchins for frail, offensive teammates that really can't afford to take hits, whilst Arcanine can.
Morning Sun, whilst only having 8 PP, provides Arcanine with recovery in case it needs it to stay healthy throughout the game and ensures it can properly execute its role. This is one of its two (three) major drawbacks: 8 PP isn't great, but acceptable - the fact that Morning Sun is affected by weather is heavily detrimental, which in three of the four cases means it will only heal 25% of its health by using this move in rain, sand or hail. Obviously, sun is great for it, healing 2/3 instead, but yeah let's face it, sun is the least viable of the weathers and is barely used. On the contrary, rain (teams Arcanine really doesn't do well against at all for obvious reasons) is way more used, and I see sand/hail regularly as well. Thankfully, weather spam is not as common as it was back in generation 5 (all hail the frog).
Last slot is reserved for an offensive move. I definitely prefer Flamethrower because of it not having any recoil that would harm Arcanine's ability as a physically defensive mon, in addition to hitting physically defensive Pokemon like Melmetal, Buzzwole and Tangrowth much harder. It also avoids contact on Ferro and CorvSkarms Rocky Helmet and negates Iron Defense. Flare Blitz could be used for one that likes more breaking power and also being able to hit the (nowadays less common) egg for reasonable damage.
The EVs are obv. mostly invested in Defense to maximize Arcanine's defensive capabilities (fun fact: it avoids the 2HKO from scarf Lele's psyshock), whilst the Speed EVs allow it to reach a stat of 241, outspeeding several Pokémon around the 240 mark.
Set Usability
Arcanine is a proper Pokémon for checking some of the most threatening physical attackers in the metagame. This includes cleaners such as Weavile, Kartana, and Zeraora, but it also properly deals with other physically offensive Pokémon such as Melmetal, Rillaboom, Hawlucha, the odd Scizor, and even Bisharp (even though Defiant may leave you guessing otherwise).
Most of these defensive Pokémon lack any kind of proper defensive capabilities, but Arcanine has a respectable special Attack of 100 and Attack of 110, meaning it can also get rid of several other common defensive Pokémon, including Ferrothorn (let's face it, it's also everywhere), the metal birds (Corviknight / Skarmory), Tangrowth and Buzzwole. With this attack power and its 95 Speed stat, it also manages to check Magnezone.
As listed, here will be some relevant calculations against the Pokémon it is supposed to be used against:
* note: I accidentely used a spread of 252 / 198+ whilst making the calculations. The differences are neglectable however.
Defensive:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 233-274 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Revenge OHKO or heal to weaken the damage, turning it into a 3HKO)
-1 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 88-105 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (around 2% chance to KO with the second hit if no heal)
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 168+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 239-282 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 270-321 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- not a KO
-1 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO
fun thing it also heavily cripples phys leftovers Pult by switching in on DD, burning it, also being able to take the second hit, heal and pivot out:
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 204-242 (53.1 - 63%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- approx. 4HKO
not advisable though, band and lo also beat it.
Offensive
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 924-1092 (356.7 - 421.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (close call)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 236-282 (56 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 122-146 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (rather weak, but it still wins)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 212-252 (75.1 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Rocky Helmet is guaranteed 2HKO)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 258-306 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 340-408 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 320-380 (81.4 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Scizor: 420-496 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 118-139 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Teams
I feel like Arcanine does well on BO teams that need a defensive answer to physical Ice/Steel/Grass types whilst also appreciating the momentum Arcanine creates to get the true attackers in properly. That being said, it does need a bit of support itself.
Defog or Spin is absolutely mandatory as your HDB will most likely be knocked off by opposing Weavile, Rillaboom and Kartana, mons you'll be willing to switch into. Arcanine is of course weak to Stealth Rock, and it really can't have 25% of its HP being lowered on switch in as it will lower the amount of Pokémon it checks. Rotom-Wash does this exceptionally well, considering it also covers Arcanine's type weaknesses in Ground and Water and can create momentum with VSwitch as well. Other Defoggers that provide momentum, such as Corviknight, can also fulfill this role well.
A specially defensive Pokémon that can switch in and take strong special attacks that Arcanine may struggle against (even though scarf Blace for example only 3HKOes - but Arcanine can't do much back), whilst also providing momentum, works excellent for it. Slowking and even Blissey are two good examples.
Replays:
Before I tilted due to my own poor plays, I was using Arcanine successfully around the 1600-1800 mark. Most of the replays are from games against similarly ranked players.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510090848-8sfx3ttrq68ljw31ejpz7nce1k7wx1epw
In this replay Arcanine effectively burns Chomp on Scale Shot whilst they predicted me to switch because of Intimidate. Additionally, it handled phys Pult and picked off both Koko and Alolatales.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510698285-8o1wzn98jq25tw26zy4h1usm6f3fyqopw
Here it effectively burned Shifu on switch-in, also properly handling Weavile.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510737666-jtqf09ujy4nd90derp86ohavh26lt4gpw
Dealing with Zeraora (and Weavile, even though they forfeited) late game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1511361549-vo2fxrwi2bzei95hpsi38tmf4ujmet1pw
Again late-game, beating Kartana and Buzzwole with a little bit help of Tangrowth. I should've been more careful not to let Arcanine get poisoned right here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1512221030-9fp9l5wf23wvjmqkfhznbfq0cqi376dpw
Burning Lando-T on switch in, and also again late-game, dealing with Weavile, Zeraora, and defeating Corviknight.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1513322864-r5nqkl208atesnod7veu7frdtmnfig4pw
Burning Chomp, shitting on Zera, Rilla and Melm as well. Also don't judge my use of Rhydon this game, it was just for fun (maybe also why I lost many points!) :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1515552490-xeggimvw0tnj0nf6j47wuadhn3wgd3tpw
playing around the Bisharp, late-game handling Rillaboom and Zeraora.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516443446-0hs9fre0tixjrzng2nxm3di21dkvnfvpw
crippling / beating four mons again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516620258-flmng5sc06ffyl2en1jn8g0nsczepwvpw
dealing with half the team again
Drawbacks
I've shortly pointed out Arcanine's main two / three (heavy) drawbacks:
- Stealth Rock weakness, of course you have HDB but you'll be switching into mons using Knock Off (so it requires Defog (or spin)! But synergizes well with several that do this)
- Morning Sun being weather affected (I feel like this is its strongest con. Thankfully weather isn't permanent. You're going to massively enjoy the occasional sun though).
- Morning Sun's 8 PP, but in practice for me it's usually been enough.
Conclusion
I truly feel like Arcanine has reasons to be used in the OU metagame for all the reasons I listed above. Intimidate, bulk, alright offensive presence for a defensive Pokemon, speed, decent recovery, and Teleport. I hope you'll consider testing it and enjoying it yourself, as I have definitely done so.
Thanks for reading and have a wonderful day!
Last edited:
after the nidoking nom i did earlier in this thread, im gonna nom a few more things while echoing other peoples nom i agree and disagree with
A -> B+ DROP
i love volcarona, but i feel like the meta is unfriendly to it. for example: AV-Torn, Heatran, Volcanion, Offensive zapdos, Band dpult, lele, dnite, nihilego, galarian moltres, growing popularity of twave, rain, urshifu to name some very common counters. volc has a severe 4 Move slot syndrome wanting roost, bug buzz, psychic, safeguard to be able to beat most of its counter, i have been dabbling with a lot of volcarona lately both offensive and bulkarona on a screens build where it shines the most,
and while when it works it works WELL when it fails you really dont get much out of it and the fact so many top tier threats counter it makes it feel semi-unreliable. dont get me wrong its still good, but i feel like it should be the same level as
Nihilego and 
G-Molt as a specially based special sweeper that can potentially win on the spot with severe weakness.
Combining S- and S while rising Torn-T
controversial statement, but i feel like lando doesnt feel as threatening or as splashable, dont get me wrong, i spam the heck out of it on so many teams but agreeing with airfare and MANNAT here (see both of their posts to get full context) , Lando has been falling off ever so slightly with the rise of buzzwole, not able to switch in to breakers not named zera or chomp (both which still have techs to beat it) he just doesnt feel as dominant as the rankings would suggest. i would also like to rise Torn-T to this tier because of its pivoting and knocking prowess, AV torn lets it tank so much special moves its nuts, and it also has so many other sets like NP its hard to guess, it can also use moves like icy wind, super power, smack down to surprise other mons. things like heatran, weavile and tornadus-t being as good as it with heatran having so many sets from will-o physdef, spdef, eruption, charcoal, balloon. tornadus being able to pivot into any special move with AV or defog with boots or sweep with NP Taunt or life orb and weavile being the best SD Sweeper and 
Band user in OU. Ive made a few lando-less teams and they have been working wonders too.
B -> C+ DROP
after the ban of kyurem, i have not seen a good reason to use this mon. honetly its 2 niches are walling tapu lele and weavile and an SD Sweeper on Veil HO, and in both cases, while not bad, its not the best at doing so, things like heatran and melm can beat both lele and weave and corviknight can do it too while having a spikes immunity and keeping defog an u-turn. In Veil HO, its pretty good with its defensive steel typing but other SD Sweepers like garchomp, kartana and weavile can do its job pretty well even without its defensive utility, thats why i think it should drop further into C+ with other semi-niched mons.
C+ -> B- RISE
This thing is surprisingly good in HO, and should rise one more, with a respectable amount of usage in SPL Week 2, 4. Power Herb is its main set able to autotomize up with its good defenses then meteor beaming something down and spamming airslash while boosting special attack after every kill, it can snowball very quickly, a team i love with it is on the sample team by Gefährlicher Random
where it brings pressure to spdef counters alongside nihilego. (also defensive steela can work, but it really is just bad ferro)
C- -> C+ RISE
Necrozma is a gimmicky HO pick but it can work amazingly well, from its bulk and ability making it unable to be OHKOd by most things and its vast movepool, spammable stab and potential to have a surprise physical set i believe it needs to rise 2 whole ranks. it had a few usage in SPL and it is quite consistent to use on high ladder so i believe this should have a rise.
B- -> B RISE
its a good special rain sweeper while giving an electric immunity and potential rocks and can go surprise physical if needed and is a rain sweeper not walled by slowbro and volcanion. either life orb or specs hurts A LOT and combined with the physical prowess of either
Barraskewda or urshifu, its really does make rain a formidable weather.
My first nom ^^^B -> B+ or -A
I think from that most recent mini-tier shift, some usage in spl and blissey falling down the drain more, and more. this this thing reeaaally needs to rise, it beats almost everything thats common in OU except for AV-torn and weavile so i really think it deserves it more than ever now, with it now carrying tbolt over flamethrower to nail slowking since ferro is mostly physdef and gets destroyed by earth power, there really isnt many checks
A -> B+ DROPi love volcarona, but i feel like the meta is unfriendly to it. for example: AV-Torn, Heatran, Volcanion, Offensive zapdos, Band dpult, lele, dnite, nihilego, galarian moltres, growing popularity of twave, rain, urshifu to name some very common counters. volc has a severe 4 Move slot syndrome wanting roost, bug buzz, psychic, safeguard to be able to beat most of its counter, i have been dabbling with a lot of volcarona lately both offensive and bulkarona on a screens build where it shines the most,
and while when it works it works WELL when it fails you really dont get much out of it and the fact so many top tier threats counter it makes it feel semi-unreliable. dont get me wrong its still good, but i feel like it should be the same level as
Nihilego and G-Molt as a specially based special sweeper that can potentially win on the spot with severe weakness. Combining S- and S while rising Torn-Tcontroversial statement, but i feel like lando doesnt feel as threatening or as splashable, dont get me wrong, i spam the heck out of it on so many teams but agreeing with airfare and MANNAT here (see both of their posts to get full context) , Lando has been falling off ever so slightly with the rise of buzzwole, not able to switch in to breakers not named zera or chomp (both which still have techs to beat it) he just doesnt feel as dominant as the rankings would suggest. i would also like to rise Torn-T to this tier because of its pivoting and knocking prowess, AV torn lets it tank so much special moves its nuts, and it also has so many other sets like NP its hard to guess, it can also use moves like icy wind, super power, smack down to surprise other mons. things like heatran, weavile and tornadus-t being as good as it with
heatran having so many sets from will-o physdef, spdef, eruption, charcoal, balloon. tornadus being able to pivot into any special move with AV or defog with boots or sweep with NP Taunt or life orb and weavile being the best SD Sweeper and Band user in OU. Ive made a few lando-less teams and they have been working wonders too. B -> C+ DROPafter the ban of kyurem, i have not seen a good reason to use this mon. honetly its 2 niches are walling tapu lele and weavile and an SD Sweeper on Veil HO, and in both cases, while not bad, its not the best at doing so, things like heatran and melm can beat both lele and weave and corviknight can do it too while having a spikes immunity and keeping defog an u-turn. In Veil HO, its pretty good with its defensive steel typing but other SD Sweepers like garchomp, kartana and weavile can do its job pretty well even without its defensive utility, thats why i think it should drop further into C+ with other semi-niched mons.
C+ -> B- RISEThis thing is surprisingly good in HO, and should rise one more, with a respectable amount of usage in SPL Week 2, 4. Power Herb is its main set able to autotomize up with its good defenses then meteor beaming something down and spamming airslash while boosting special attack after every kill, it can snowball very quickly, a team i love with it is on the sample team by Gefährlicher Random
where it brings pressure to spdef counters alongside nihilego. (also defensive steela can work, but it really is just bad ferro) C- -> C+ RISENecrozma is a gimmicky HO pick but it can work amazingly well, from its bulk and ability making it unable to be OHKOd by most things and its vast movepool, spammable stab and potential to have a surprise physical set i believe it needs to rise 2 whole ranks. it had a few usage in SPL and it is quite consistent to use on high ladder so i believe this should have a rise.
B- -> B RISEits a good special rain sweeper while giving an electric immunity and potential rocks and can go surprise physical if needed and is a rain sweeper not walled by slowbro and volcanion. either life orb or specs hurts A LOT and combined with the physical prowess of either
Barraskewda or urshifu, its really does make rain a formidable weather.
C -> C+
Joey's recent video inspired me to start building with Toxtrcity and it's definitely viable. It's one of the few electric types with means to mangle ground types, as Punk Rock Boomburst is functionally stab with how high the BP is. Modest outspeeds most SpD Landorus, and sits at 249 Speed. There are certain builds with Buzzwole / Torn / Koko that just really get messed up by Specs Toxtricty every time it comes in. It really appreciates pivots like Torn and Slowbro getting it in, but it's not terribly hard to build around. Snarl and Volt Switch are both viable 4th moves. Give it a shot.
The thing is, all of these traits you describe for Rilla are very on paper. In practice, Rilla's lack of defensive makes it very difficult to get into position normally. It is very weak to being chipped from attacks, hazard and status, as well as contact effects. It cannot switch into most common mons due to the prevelance of knock off and it cannot defensively check most waters due to the threat of a burn..
This was the only mon i really found suited B- and I wasn’t quite sure which direction to go with it so I tried it out myself. I have come to appreciate bulu’s unique qualities that sometimes warrant a teamslot over rilla thanks to added defensive utility and coverage. However, I do still think rilla is overall the better mon because of grassy glide’s offensive utility when it comes to revenge killing, as well as knock off support being really good. So I’ll follow up with a nom of
The abundance of faster or fat grass resists hurts it more than anything though. Zapdos, Torn, Dragonite resurging, Corv still existing, Volcarona... It isn't realistic to always have its checks knocked and chipped by rocks. As for Kart v Boom... Kart just does everything it does better. Revenge Killer? Kart. Wallbreaker? Kart. Swords Dance? Kart. Especially since Kart's huge attack means that even non scarfed sets still limit its switch ins as its great speed means it doesn't rely on a priority move to do work. Whereas Rilla's reliance on a priority move will often make it feel pressured to use that priority when it gets in so it doesn't waste its opportunity.
Honestly my initial nom for B- was almost too generous and it feels like you could argue for C+, buuut I will stand by my initial nom and say that Boom deserves to drop for all the afforementioned reasons. That said....
to BStarting with a conservative nom for now, but with Rilla's sharp decline and the proliferation of pokemon Bulu handles, the meta currently feels quite a bit kinder to Bulu and it has some qualities relevant to the meta that I feel make it deserving of a small rise. Its defensive qualities thanks to its fairy typing are more advantageous, giving it a neutrality to Uturn and a fighting resistance and letting it check to Zeraora and UrshifuR, while it also being a solid Garchomp check as well, and can help block Ferro leech seed. SD Bulu is a great wallbreaker in the current meta that is hard to play around between Horn Leech, Close Combat and Stone Edge/Rock Slide coverage, as bulky teams can't so easily play around it. And it has the ability to lure its own checks with specific sets using resist berries, aiding its teammates in the process and letting it form strong cores with the likes of Kartana and Heatran.
Bulu can also surprisingly check rain better than it seems. Resisting all of Barra's attacks, threating Seismitoad well and blowing away Pelipper with its stab or coverage, and like I said, can lure flying types with specific item choice. Bulu's weakening of EQ also gives useful utility for allies weak to it, and can generally be a good all around BO pick.
I actually believe Bulu is better than B rank, but it hasn't seen much ladder or tourney play, and its talents aren't very well known so for now a conservative nom feels right.
Last edited:
Oh I misread. I thought you said what does Kart outspeed that rilla dosent. My bad
I agree with all of these noms except for the Volcarona nom, B+ doesn't feel right, honestly should drop to A-, since it is still capable of sweeping if not accounted for.after the nidoking nom i did earlier in this thread, im gonna nom a few more things while echoing other peoples nom i agree and disagree with
My first nom ^^^
i love volcarona, but i feel like the meta is unfriendly to it. for example: AV-Torn, Heatran, Volcanion, Offensive zapdos, Band dpult, lele, dnite, nihilego, galarian moltres, growing popularity of twave, rain, urshifu to name some very common counters. volc has a severe 4 Move slot syndrome wanting roost, bug buzz, psychic, safeguard to be able to beat most of its counter, i have been dabbling with a lot of volcarona lately both offensive and bulkarona on a screens build where it shines the most,
and while when it works it works WELL when it fails you really dont get much out of it and the fact so many top tier threats counter it makes it feel semi-unreliable. dont get me wrong its still good, but i feel like it should be the same level as
controversial statement, but i feel like lando doesnt feel as threatening or as splashable, dont get me wrong, i spam the heck out of it on so many teams but agreeing with airfare and MANNAT here (see both of their posts to get full context) , Lando has been falling off ever so slightly with the rise of buzzwole, not able to switch in to breakers not named zera or chomp (both which still have techs to beat it) he just doesnt feel as dominant as the rankings would suggest. i would also like to rise Torn-T to this tier because of its pivoting and knocking prowess, AV torn lets it tank so much special moves its nuts, and it also has so many other sets like NP its hard to guess, it can also use moves like icy wind, super power, smack down to surprise other mons. things like heatran, weavile and tornadus-t being as good as it with
after the ban of kyurem, i have not seen a good reason to use this mon. honetly its 2 niches are walling tapu lele and weavile and an SD Sweeper on Veil HO, and in both cases, while not bad, its not the best at doing so, things like heatran and melm can beat both lele and weave and corviknight can do it too while having a spikes immunity and keeping defog an u-turn. In Veil HO, its pretty good with its defensive steel typing but other SD Sweepers like garchomp, kartana and weavile can do its job pretty well even without its defensive utility, thats why i think it should drop further into C+ with other semi-niched mons.
This thing is surprisingly good in HO, and should rise one more, with a respectable amount of usage in SPL Week 2, 4. Power Herb is its main set able to autotomize up with its good defenses then meteor beaming something down and spamming airslash while boosting special attack after every kill, it can snowball very quickly, a team i love with it is on the sample team by Gefährlicher Random
Necrozma is a gimmicky HO pick but it can work amazingly well, from its bulk and ability making it unable to be OHKOd by most things and its vast movepool, spammable stab and potential to have a surprise physical set i believe it needs to rise 2 whole ranks. it had a few usage in SPL and it is quite consistent to use on high ladder so i believe this should have a rise.
its a good special rain sweeper while giving an electric immunity and potential rocks and can go surprise physical if needed and is a rain sweeper not walled by slowbro and volcanion. either life orb or specs hurts A LOT and combined with the physical prowess of either
My nom is inspired by the highlight of my pokemon career a team that I built got used in Charity Bowl III a pretty major smogon tournament. In case you didn’t realize which team that it was(based on my nom) remember when Skypenguin used a team built around Tyrantrum in his last battle of the tournament, I built that team heres the proof: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smashing-a-tyrantrum-rmt.3695151/. The only difference from the team that I built and the one that Sky used in Charity Bowl is that he used Pex instead of Koko. During the battle Finchinator said that Tyrantrum is around C+ in the viability rankings, so i decided to take his word and nom it to C+ myself considering I was the pioneer behind OU Tyrantrum. Now onto actual competive stuff, basically band Head Smash go brr it two hit kos pretty every major wall in OU and OHKO’s pretty much every thing else. If used with good pivoting ie Slow U-Turn and Teleport it can come in and basically guarantee the death of an opposing pokemon, now it has pretty major flaws it basically has no defensive utility what so ever, The only pokemon I think you can hard switch Tyrantrum into in OU rn is Zapdos and Blacephlon locked into a fire move So not great (although the recent rise of Zap and Niheligo does greatly benefit Tyrantrum’s defensive utility) So overall Tyrantrum is the definition of a high risk high reward pokemon if you get it in safely and it’s head smashes land it can wreak havoc but if you can’t it’s basically a sitting duck.
Last edited:
No noms for now, but I just wanted to talk about something that seriously annoys me, not just about this tier, but Smogon in general. There seems to be this widespread mentality that if a mon is A- tier, it's top tier and everyone must use it on their team, and if a mon is B+ tier or below, it's unviable garbage that has absolutely no niche (obviously i'm hyperbolizing a little bit but you get the point). Not only is this mindset simply wrong, it's unhealthy. New players are going to see these noms and only want to use A- and above mons and because they’ve been fooled into believing that anything below that is bad when that couldn’t be any further from the truth. If B+ was the bar of viability, there would be no point in viability rankings.
Here’s the thing; you can have whatever opinion you want to about a mon’s viability, but if you truly believe it’s bad or that you don't see a reason for it to be used, nominate it to be UR, not C+ or C. Nominating something you believe to be bad to something like B tier doesn’t help anybody with anything and is entirely counterproductive since it discourages metagame diversity. As someone who cares about metagame diversity maybe too much for his own good, the fact that this belief is so common is frankly worrying. Thinking outside the box and going against this mindset is how new metagame developments happen. Take Weavile, for example. Many people used to consider it trash, or at least not nearly as good as it is considered now, and now it’s one of the best mons in the tier, but stuff like that can't happen if people keep spreading this terribly flawed way of thinking.
Here’s the thing; you can have whatever opinion you want to about a mon’s viability, but if you truly believe it’s bad or that you don't see a reason for it to be used, nominate it to be UR, not C+ or C. Nominating something you believe to be bad to something like B tier doesn’t help anybody with anything and is entirely counterproductive since it discourages metagame diversity. As someone who cares about metagame diversity maybe too much for his own good, the fact that this belief is so common is frankly worrying. Thinking outside the box and going against this mindset is how new metagame developments happen. Take Weavile, for example. Many people used to consider it trash, or at least not nearly as good as it is considered now, and now it’s one of the best mons in the tier, but stuff like that can't happen if people keep spreading this terribly flawed way of thinking.
?? Never really seen anybody with this mindset tbh. From A+ to S ranks maybe, from UR to C- maybe, definitely not A- to B+. Not to mention the whole 'philosophy' of the VR is pretty ill defined in general, meaning any nitpick you have with how other people interpret this thread is ultimately adhering to no authority other than your own conviction.
Thoughts on raising 
for its SpDef set?
it’s a very reliable switch in for heatran, and a lot of teams are packing at most 1 or 2 switchins for scald spam. Usually these ferrothorns, toxapex, blissey, et all, can be u turned out of and used as a setup opportunity.
it’s also a reliable check to most defensive lando sets.
the set:
Pelliper @ Heavy Duty Boots
252 Hp / 252+ SpD / 4 SpA
- Scald
- U turn
- Roost
- Defog / Knock off / Hurricane
the mild rain support is also handy to teammates like the recently trending specs zapdos or offensive 4 attacks slowbro.
sample replay:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1526743952-0v560q9evont9tvddmqn8zyk3d5nc8rpw
pelipper effectively checks heatran, softening its impact. But ultimately loses to offensive landorus. The rain boost supports 252 HP / 216+ SpA / 40 SpD slowbro, who threatens the entire team (you can see scald threaten the 2HKO on offensive Clefable)
for its SpDef set?it’s a very reliable switch in for heatran, and a lot of teams are packing at most 1 or 2 switchins for scald spam. Usually these ferrothorns, toxapex, blissey, et all, can be u turned out of and used as a setup opportunity.
it’s also a reliable check to most defensive lando sets.
the set:
Pelliper @ Heavy Duty Boots
252 Hp / 252+ SpD / 4 SpA
- Scald
- U turn
- Roost
- Defog / Knock off / Hurricane
the mild rain support is also handy to teammates like the recently trending specs zapdos or offensive 4 attacks slowbro.
sample replay:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1526743952-0v560q9evont9tvddmqn8zyk3d5nc8rpw
pelipper effectively checks heatran, softening its impact. But ultimately loses to offensive landorus. The rain boost supports 252 HP / 216+ SpA / 40 SpD slowbro, who threatens the entire team (you can see scald threaten the 2HKO on offensive Clefable)
Last edited:
Viability rankings is the way by which we assess and categorize the acknowledged and agreed upon viability certain Pokemon have in a tier. I think what you are referring to is entirely outside of the fundamental purpose of the viability rankings, and directs attention to a flawed perception of the viability rankings as an arbitrary and dysfunctional system which incorrectly assesses the tier. This perception is clearly disinformation and ignores two things: 1.) Viability is objective (if not, very loosely subjective) and plays into itself, and 2.) Mindset has nothing to do with (or has no major part of) viability rankings. Additionally, this perception relies solely on a cocksure understanding of the viability rankings.
Who said that B+ was the bar of viability, or that viability rankings promoted a system where anything that ranked lower was completely unviable or didn't fit into ill-defined "meta diversity?" Just because something ranks low doesn't mean it is excluded from viability, it is objective fact that these lower ranking Pokemon are simply not as relevant as others. Even things ranked from C+ to C- have some form of objective viability, though admittedly, those of these ranks and lower are somewhat subjective-- but I digress. Additionally, Weavile is not an example of "thinking outside the box." Its presence in the tier is the result of recent meta developments represented by the viability rankings, no "flawed thinking" affects it or has ever affected it.
I thought Weavile ( and Bisharp) were only 'bad' during the Zamazenta-C meta but after the ban people started using Weavile more and realized how effective it is.
agslash23
Banned deucer.
The fact that you consider anything below B+ is solely your opinion that most players don't have. If that were the case, no one would run rain, a dangerous archetype that you get 6-0ed by if you aren't prepared for it (also I reached my highest ladder rank thanks to a rain team).
Reason mons are nominated to C rank is because they have a niche in the meta, but can be a little inconsistent based on matchup, and thus require heavy team support. That niche gets better, or requires lesser support the higher up you go in VR.
This is why Finchinator I would suggest that we add the rank definitions in the main post, so that people don't draw random perceptions of VR, and really know what it universally means.
Got a couple of noms.
RISE
A- -> A
Blacephalon is currently a menace in SS OU, having two sets in particular that are very good. Specs is the first one, being very difficult to switch into, and 2 hit KOing most the metagame. The two safe switch ins, being Tyranitar and Blissey, are not quite at their highest point, and they both can get crippled by trick. With the two other Dark types getting hit by fire STAB hard, coming in on this mon is difficult. Scarf is the second set. Scarf possesses almost as much power as a Specs Dragapult, but it also gets the speed boost, letting it outspeed Zeraora and Tapu Koko. If Blacephalon can get one KO, it can get a snowball rolling, as revenge killing it without Urshifu Bisharp or Scarf Kartana can be difficult. Blacephalon becomes super strong and fast after a single kill, and can criple it's switch ins like SpDef Toxapex with trick. Overall I think Blacephalon is worthy of A tier currently.
RISE
B -> A-
Nidoking is loving the low usage of Blissey. Nidoking destroys most common cores these days, with its ridiculous coverage, and sheet force life orb set. It also loves the high usage of defensive Landorus, so it usually outspeeds and can knock it out. Nidoking can hit most defensive pokemon for super effective, like Toxapex, Slowing Galar, Ferrothorn etc. It's very few switch ins being Slowking, and Blissey, not being the greatest right now is a huge benefit to it currently, and I think it's deserving of A-, or atleast B+
RISE
A- -> A
While it did just rise I think it's deserving of being even higher. Buzzwole is an elite pokemon in my opinion, and it is loving the sky high usage of pokemon like Weavile, Kartana and Ferrothorn. It has amazing physical bulk, and makes pokemon like Urshifu and Weavile think twice before clicking a move. Aswell as having instant recovery, good coverage moves, and a usable speed tier, makes it very potent right now. I think as pokemon like Weavile Garchomp and Kartana continue to see a lot of usage, Buzzwole will always be an incredible pokemon, and I think it should be in A.
RISE
B -> B+
Rain is at a really high point in OU right now. No Kyurem is a really big buff to it, and with the less usage in hail, rain is a pretty strong strategy. Barraskewda in the rain is very powerful, as it can overwhelm almost every pokemon in the tier. It's limited pool of switch ins are all or mostly water type, making it very easy for your next teamate. (
) With Pelipper being a pretty reliable weather setter, I think rain is gonna keep thriving, and Barraskewda is one of the big reasons why. Deserving of B+ imo.
RISE
B- -> B
On the topic of rain, Seismitoad is also thriving on the archetype. While not quite as strong as Barraskewda, it is definitely a threat. Having a ground type is good, as you aren't forced to run Landorus, and can maybe open to another defensive pokemon. It also can set stealth Rock so that can let Ferrothorn run spikes, making the swift swimmers even more difficult to deal with. Water Ground is a very solid offensive typing, with most answers to it being water or grass. () Teamate direction is also pretty generous, and like I mentioned with my nom above, I only see Seismitoad continue to do well with rain.
RISE
C+ -> B
This one is my last rise, and it may be weird, as Mandibuzz is at an all time low in SwSh. While I agree, Mandibuzz is at an all-time low, I don't think it should be in C+. Mandibuzz dosent enjoy the heavy usage of Heatran, Weavile, Tapus and such. However I think it still provides enough value to be solid. First off, Garchomps don't run Stone Edge as much on SD sets, making Mandibuzz a big threat to it, as it can wall it, and threaten it with Foul Play. On the topic of swords dance, Mandibuzz is the single anti physical sweeping pokemon. Dragonite can't 2HKO with +1 Ice Punch, and is scared out by FP. Kartana can't even touch Mandibuzz without smart strike, making Mandibuzz really annoying for it. Mandibuzz in my opinion, while it does not enjoy Draco's from Dragapult and specs flamethrower from Blacephalon, I think it's one of the best switch ins to these guys. Being a ghost resist with instant recovery, and can actually threaten them is very valuable with the 2 mentioned running around. I do think Mandibuzz is not at it's best point, far from it, but it should be B in my opinion, as it's still a good pokemon, or atleast B-.
DROP
A -> A-
I still think this pokemon is incredible. However, the meta is getting a little bit annoying for Glowking. First off, a lot of the special attackers in the tier threaten it out, being the ghost duo ( 
) Tapu Lele, etc. Weavile having a super high usage right now, also really hinders this pokemon. The large distribution on Knock Off also hurts it, as it can't wall things like Tapu Koko without AV. Lastly, it suffers a lot from 4 move slot syndrome. Future Sight Sludge Bomb and Flamethrower are required, so that leaves you with a couple options. If you go the Ice Beam, route, you can hit Lando and Garchomp hard, which is nice, but you can't touch Heatran, and if it traps you, you die. If you go the EQ route, you can deal with Heatran but its pretty useless against the rest of the metagame. Scald lets you hit Lando and Heatran, but Heatran is gonna win the 1v1, and likely KO you. I think this pokemon is still amazing, being able to hard wall Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Zapdos etc, but the metagame isn't in the place for it to be an A rank pokemon imo.
DROP
A -> A-
Volcarona is always gonna be a threat, however I don't think its an A rank one as of right now. Heatran has a ridiculously high usage, making this pokemon very hard to abuse in a lot of matchups. Secondly, it suffers from 4 move slot syndrome, even harder than Glowking. Flamethrower and Quiver Dance are required, so what do you put. Roost is good for recovery, but you miss out on a coverage option. Bug Buzz is nice for letting you hit Slowking Kanto, Tyranitar, but you get completely walled by Toxapex. Ok run 3 attacks, Bug Psychic Fire, well now you get chipped down by everything, such as Toxic, Magma Storm Heatran, Whirlpool Fini etc, and have no way to heal up. Running Psychic Fire Roost is great for Toxapex, but then you can't touch Tyranitar, you can't touch Slowking Kanto, and so on. Giga Drain is nice for waters, but you have to sacrifice roost, or another attacking option, going back to the problem before. Safeguard sets are very inconsistent, as they only really help with Blissey and maybe Landorus, but they are useless against the rest of the metagame. Volcarona is unpredictable, and it can be good, but it is to inconsistent to be in A rank as of right now.
RISE
A- -> A
Blacephalon is currently a menace in SS OU, having two sets in particular that are very good. Specs is the first one, being very difficult to switch into, and 2 hit KOing most the metagame. The two safe switch ins, being Tyranitar and Blissey, are not quite at their highest point, and they both can get crippled by trick. With the two other Dark types getting hit by fire STAB hard, coming in on this mon is difficult. Scarf is the second set. Scarf possesses almost as much power as a Specs Dragapult, but it also gets the speed boost, letting it outspeed Zeraora and Tapu Koko. If Blacephalon can get one KO, it can get a snowball rolling, as revenge killing it without Urshifu Bisharp or Scarf Kartana can be difficult. Blacephalon becomes super strong and fast after a single kill, and can criple it's switch ins like SpDef Toxapex with trick. Overall I think Blacephalon is worthy of A tier currently.
RISE
B -> A-
Nidoking is loving the low usage of Blissey. Nidoking destroys most common cores these days, with its ridiculous coverage, and sheet force life orb set. It also loves the high usage of defensive Landorus, so it usually outspeeds and can knock it out. Nidoking can hit most defensive pokemon for super effective, like Toxapex, Slowing Galar, Ferrothorn etc. It's very few switch ins being Slowking, and Blissey, not being the greatest right now is a huge benefit to it currently, and I think it's deserving of A-, or atleast B+
RISE
A- -> A
While it did just rise I think it's deserving of being even higher. Buzzwole is an elite pokemon in my opinion, and it is loving the sky high usage of pokemon like Weavile, Kartana and Ferrothorn. It has amazing physical bulk, and makes pokemon like Urshifu and Weavile think twice before clicking a move. Aswell as having instant recovery, good coverage moves, and a usable speed tier, makes it very potent right now. I think as pokemon like Weavile Garchomp and Kartana continue to see a lot of usage, Buzzwole will always be an incredible pokemon, and I think it should be in A.
RISE
B -> B+
Rain is at a really high point in OU right now. No Kyurem is a really big buff to it, and with the less usage in hail, rain is a pretty strong strategy. Barraskewda in the rain is very powerful, as it can overwhelm almost every pokemon in the tier. It's limited pool of switch ins are all or mostly water type, making it very easy for your next teamate. (
) With Pelipper being a pretty reliable weather setter, I think rain is gonna keep thriving, and Barraskewda is one of the big reasons why. Deserving of B+ imo.RISE
B- -> B
On the topic of rain, Seismitoad is also thriving on the archetype. While not quite as strong as Barraskewda, it is definitely a threat. Having a ground type is good, as you aren't forced to run Landorus, and can maybe open to another defensive pokemon. It also can set stealth Rock so that can let Ferrothorn run spikes, making the swift swimmers even more difficult to deal with. Water Ground is a very solid offensive typing, with most answers to it being water or grass. (
) Teamate direction is also pretty generous, and like I mentioned with my nom above, I only see Seismitoad continue to do well with rain.RISE
C+ -> B
This one is my last rise, and it may be weird, as Mandibuzz is at an all time low in SwSh. While I agree, Mandibuzz is at an all-time low, I don't think it should be in C+. Mandibuzz dosent enjoy the heavy usage of Heatran, Weavile, Tapus and such. However I think it still provides enough value to be solid. First off, Garchomps don't run Stone Edge as much on SD sets, making Mandibuzz a big threat to it, as it can wall it, and threaten it with Foul Play. On the topic of swords dance, Mandibuzz is the single anti physical sweeping pokemon. Dragonite can't 2HKO with +1 Ice Punch, and is scared out by FP. Kartana can't even touch Mandibuzz without smart strike, making Mandibuzz really annoying for it. Mandibuzz in my opinion, while it does not enjoy Draco's from Dragapult and specs flamethrower from Blacephalon, I think it's one of the best switch ins to these guys. Being a ghost resist with instant recovery, and can actually threaten them is very valuable with the 2 mentioned running around. I do think Mandibuzz is not at it's best point, far from it, but it should be B in my opinion, as it's still a good pokemon, or atleast B-.
DROP
A -> A-
I still think this pokemon is incredible. However, the meta is getting a little bit annoying for Glowking. First off, a lot of the special attackers in the tier threaten it out, being the ghost duo (
) Tapu Lele, etc. Weavile having a super high usage right now, also really hinders this pokemon. The large distribution on Knock Off also hurts it, as it can't wall things like Tapu Koko without AV. Lastly, it suffers a lot from 4 move slot syndrome. Future Sight Sludge Bomb and Flamethrower are required, so that leaves you with a couple options. If you go the Ice Beam, route, you can hit Lando and Garchomp hard, which is nice, but you can't touch Heatran, and if it traps you, you die. If you go the EQ route, you can deal with Heatran but its pretty useless against the rest of the metagame. Scald lets you hit Lando and Heatran, but Heatran is gonna win the 1v1, and likely KO you. I think this pokemon is still amazing, being able to hard wall Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Zapdos etc, but the metagame isn't in the place for it to be an A rank pokemon imo.DROP
A -> A-
Volcarona is always gonna be a threat, however I don't think its an A rank one as of right now. Heatran has a ridiculously high usage, making this pokemon very hard to abuse in a lot of matchups. Secondly, it suffers from 4 move slot syndrome, even harder than Glowking. Flamethrower and Quiver Dance are required, so what do you put. Roost is good for recovery, but you miss out on a coverage option. Bug Buzz is nice for letting you hit Slowking Kanto, Tyranitar, but you get completely walled by Toxapex. Ok run 3 attacks, Bug Psychic Fire, well now you get chipped down by everything, such as Toxic, Magma Storm Heatran, Whirlpool Fini etc, and have no way to heal up. Running Psychic Fire Roost is great for Toxapex, but then you can't touch Tyranitar, you can't touch Slowking Kanto, and so on. Giga Drain is nice for waters, but you have to sacrifice roost, or another attacking option, going back to the problem before. Safeguard sets are very inconsistent, as they only really help with Blissey and maybe Landorus, but they are useless against the rest of the metagame. Volcarona is unpredictable, and it can be good, but it is to inconsistent to be in A rank as of right now.
Last edited:
With Knock Off and U-turn.
Unless Bulu is scarfed, at full health, or they are switching in, it loses to those Pokemon.
But if you’re going to say Bulu beats Volcarona due to Stone Edge on the switch, then Rillaboom can Knock Off Volcarona’s boots or U-turn into an offensive check.
Honestly U-turn and Knock Off make you an automatically good Pokemon with the only question being if something with that combo does it better. It’s amazing because any wouldbe checks are either permantly crippled due to no item and/or you get the switch advantage. You can say outright KOing a Pokemon is better, which is true, but a Stone Edge doesn’t KO a lot of things, while Knock Off will remove the item of almost everything (not including Sticky Hold and some special items) and U-turn will switch a Pokemon in no matter what.
Except that it doesn't beat them simply by knocking them. Zapdos is hardly ruined without boots, and similar flying types are the same. This is without considering that Boom first must predict properly to actually make relevant progress. Its lack of defensive utility and issues getting on the field mean that it needs to make the most of those chances when it does get in, and so boom players may feel pressured to use glide to not waste that opportunity. Plus Zapdos and Volcarona in particular have a tendency to cripple Boom with their abilities, rendering it useless. And neither are pokemon you want to be giving free turns to in this metagame.
I'll also add that just having knock+Uturn does not automatically make a good pokemon. You need more qualities than that. Boom lacks much beyond Glide and those moves, leaving it one dimensional and easy to exploit. Last bit, but I said it in my nom for it and I'll repeat it: Bulu can fairly easily lure birds with specific item choices to beat them while still being useful beyond that.
Latios C to B - --- Latios can break holes on many teams in late game with specs. It has the elemental attacks It furthermore has access to trick. In theory, it is outclassed completely by specs lele but that's not true. It has a better speed tier and wider coverage with trick. Mystical fire lets it deal with ferro while aura sphere can be run for heatran. Other special tanks like lando-t/blissey can be destroyed with ice beam and trick respectively. Most special tanks are not a problem for it. The only disadvantage for it is weavile rising. CM sets take heatran as fodder. Its bulk 80/80/110 is not bad at all and has some valuable resists as well.
Landorus to S- --- Lando is not the best pokemon in the meta. The meta has been adapting towards it pretty well. With hydro pump pult, aqua tail chomp , weavile and air balloon tran it cannot just define itself in a tier of its own. Landorus's necessity in a team has fallen off with new defoggers and rockers coming up. It is easy to predict. While landorus is still elite it clearly is not as good as it was.
Nidoking to B+ --- It has great coverages and always is a 1 for 1 trade or sometimes it can pick up some more kills . It can soft check the electrics (Koko, zeroara and eleki). More passive teams get destroyed by it. Blissey's and Slowking's drop is great for it although tbolt can be run to fight slowing which has seen a slight rise in the past. It does not suffer from the 4MSS. It does not need flamethrower as more ferrothorns are going p.def. (General moveset I prefer- Tbolt/ Ice beam/ sludge wave/ Earth power. )
Weavile and Heatran to S --- These things have been forming the metagame recently. Band weavile with beat up is a new tech run to overcome contact effects and steels. Heatran hasn't changed to much. But the new eruption set is a great rocker. It has great usage and most teams are more focused to deal with these both.
Landorus to S- --- Lando is not the best pokemon in the meta. The meta has been adapting towards it pretty well. With hydro pump pult, aqua tail chomp , weavile and air balloon tran it cannot just define itself in a tier of its own. Landorus's necessity in a team has fallen off with new defoggers and rockers coming up. It is easy to predict. While landorus is still elite it clearly is not as good as it was.
Nidoking to B+ --- It has great coverages and always is a 1 for 1 trade or sometimes it can pick up some more kills . It can soft check the electrics (Koko, zeroara and eleki). More passive teams get destroyed by it. Blissey's and Slowking's drop is great for it although tbolt can be run to fight slowing which has seen a slight rise in the past. It does not suffer from the 4MSS. It does not need flamethrower as more ferrothorns are going p.def. (General moveset I prefer- Tbolt/ Ice beam/ sludge wave/ Earth power. )
Weavile and Heatran to S --- These things have been forming the metagame recently. Band weavile with beat up is a new tech run to overcome contact effects and steels. Heatran hasn't changed to much. But the new eruption set is a great rocker. It has great usage and most teams are more focused to deal with these both.
Last edited:
- Status