if you don't mind, could you give reasoning as to why you believe we shouldn't suspect anything else until DLC? I'm glad that more members of the council are giving their thoughts on the metagame at the moment, but when the thread has been cluttered with cries about suspecting toxapex and/or urshifu, I definitely can say that many players would like a bit more elaboration as to why you believe that we should hold off on any suspects other than the cinderace retest because that seems to be controversial opinion from the sentiments gathered in this thread so far.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)
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Now while I agree with what is you said about Cindi I don't see how pex keeps urshifu in check. It's a cc sponge ,yes but the meta has many others and what really keeps it in check are the dark resists.Actually this is the situation:
If we banurshifu will be the most potent threat at the moment
If we bantoxapex will be very difficult to beat
If we unbanand then we ban toxapex, urshifu and cinderace will be too good for the OU standard.
So... if we suspect this 3 mons all together?
The vote will be very easy to know:
ban/unban
ban/no ban
ban/no ban
We have no time for 3 suspect, and the olt has the 4th cycle to do. Is this possible? Tell me what do you think
Knock Off isn't base 130 power. It has base 65 power, which increases by 1.5x if the target is holding an item (up to 97.5). Knock Off is certainly one of the best moves in the game, for me personally Scald or Stealth Rock is probably the best move in the game.
If we ban
If we ban
These are conflicting statements. I don't think Toxapex will become any more difficult to beat if Urshifu is banned, and even if these statements were true it wouldn't be good enough reason to not test these Pokemon.
Suspecting multiple Pokemon at the same time doesn't paint an accurate picture of how the Pokemon performs in the current metagame, and can often skew how we view certain Pokemon under these conditions. If a suspect test does happen, it needs to be one Pokemon at a time.
I'm not for or against a test of any Pokemon by the way, just sharing my thoughts
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Oh Knock off's power is only 1.5x, not double? That's a complete misunderstanding on my part! Thanks for the correction!
As for a triple test, that's a really bad way to gain sufficient and accurate information. The results would most likely skew in some way that doesn't provide a desirable or clear result.
Taking test one at a time is probably the right way to go. That being said, I wonder if it's worth even re-testing Cinder with the DLC coming. I'd prefer if we just leave it in the "Protean Penalty Box" until Crown Tundra comes out.
As for a triple test, that's a really bad way to gain sufficient and accurate information. The results would most likely skew in some way that doesn't provide a desirable or clear result.
Taking test one at a time is probably the right way to go. That being said, I wonder if it's worth even re-testing Cinder with the DLC coming. I'd prefer if we just leave it in the "Protean Penalty Box" until Crown Tundra comes out.
If I may ask, why does the council seem dead-set on re-testing Cinderace before literally anything else?
Wouldn't it make more sense to test cinderace after the DLC? Many people believe it to be as broken as magearna with the tournament survey even favouring a cinderace ban more than a magearna ban, therefore making it unlikely for it to not be broken in the meta game. It would make more sense for it to be re-tested in a metagame where the power level has increased several notches.
Speaking about power levels, with DLC 2 right around the corner I don't think it's worth suspect testing anything at the moment. While banning/unbanning certain mons may make the current meta game healthier, its gonna be flipped on its head anyway so I see no point in taking any action on otherwise problematic pokemon.
Can you provide the reasoning behind this decision? The Dracovish ban took place 2 weeks before Isle of Armor dropped. The discussion in this thread clearly shows that most players consider Toxapex to be a pressing issue, including one of your own council members. Not suspecting Urshifu is understandable as it is a fairly new mon and the metagame is still adapting to it's presence. However, Toxapex, it's role and restrictive nature have remained unchanged over two generations and beyond the latest DLC drop.
What separates Toxapex from the likes of Cindrace and Dracovish, whose suspect action seemingly happened/is happening independent of the influence of events such as DLC drops? Do the council consider the month or so of more enjoyable, healthier metagame that the community might experience if Toxapex is suspected before the drop of next DLC, to be valueless?
I have actually at times shared many of the same concerns voiced in this thread about Toxapex right now. Where my opinion might differ from others is that I didn't consider it an issue in the previous metagame(s) featuring Magearna and Cinderace and therefore believe it warrants more time to evaluate.
Immediately following the DLC drop, Slowbro was very popular, especially as part of a Teleport + Urshifu core. With Regenerator, Slowbro could absorb both Knock Off and status, and Teleport and Future Sight enabled it to remain momentum against Toxapex and render it a non-issue. Later, Specs Magearna showed up and (along with Volcarona) forced Toxapex for the first time in this generation to seriously consider between a physical defensive and a special defensive set. With Cinderace's resurgence, the Toxapex we tended to see the most was mostly just a glue in the face of VoltTurn vortices. Outside of VoltTurn, you might've observed otherwise, especially as Slowbro usage started to decline, but I do believe that most teams were well-equipped to handle Toxapex during this metagame.
The latest bans relieved a lot of pressure from Toxapex for several reasons, but perhaps the biggest one was that without Cinderace in the tier, Toxapex can safely drop Baneful Bunker and run double "status" (Scald and Knock Off). And therein lies the biggest issue with Toxapex: it can spread burn and Knock Off while being itself resilient to both due to Regenerator. To identify Toxapex as a problem just on the basis of its bulk doesn't fully capture the issue, I feel, because a lot of Pokemon can still break through it; it's the combination of its sustain and its "offensive" presence on top of that.
All that said, the metagame is adapting to Toxapex before our very eyes, and we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss these trends.
- The rise of Amoonguss gives balance teams a safe Toxapex pivot. If your Amoonguss undercreeps Pex, Spore gives a guaranteed switch for at least one turn. If something else has absorbed sleep, letting Pex get paralyzed in exchange for Knock / burn on Amoonguss is usually a poor trade if you're depending on Pex to check anything remotely offensive.
- Hatterene has also risen in usage, and while it's not something you can mindlessly switch into Toxapex, it's one less fairy that Toxapex can sit on forever. Speaking of which, both CM Thunder and Teleport are seeing more usage on Clefable after the Cinderace and Magearna bans.
- It remains to be seen if this will catch on fully or remain an OLT trend, but Zarude has recently caught on as an offensive stallbreaker that can beat Toxapex one-on-one.
- Offense has an assortment of tools to blow through Toxapex, including Specs Kyurem, Magnezone (+ Zeraora), and Toxtricity, all of which have caught on since OLT began. There are a lot of other sweepers who have more neutral matchups; they can't set up directly on Toxapex, but Toxapex can't reliably counter them switching in, either (Crawdaunt, Scizor, Dragapult). Honestly, Toxapex doesn't actually counter a whole lot by itself; it's highly dependent on defensive redundancy, so you're therefore really only going to see it on stall nowadays. This is from my anecdotal experience, but look at the OLT thread, and look at the team graphics for each cycle. Amoonguss has largely replaced the standalone role Toxapex used to fill on balance.
Re: timing. I think it makes sense to conduct a proper suspect test as soon as possible if the pretenses of a quickban are ever a timing issue such as this one. If not for timing issues, we'd have conducted a typical suspect test on Cinderace. During the next available suspect window, the justification of timing no longer applies, so we should revisit the decision we made earlier and put the issue to rest.
I do not find the existence of single strategy of Future Sight + Teleport Slowbro in the previous metagames to be a solid enough argument to say that Pex was not a problem. The teams being well-equipped argument lacks merit as well, since these well-equipped teams almost had a uniform structure and anything non-extreme like Sun almost always had to rely on the long-term strategy of PP stalling, which only further proves the severe restrictions Toxapex create on teambuilding.
Regardless, the adaptations you mentioned that we're seeing are extremely lacking to be considered any proper adaptation for Pex. Let me elaborate:
- Amoonguss only serves as a "safe" Pex switch in when the Pex user does not have better switch ins for Amoonguss. Toxapex is very often used alongside Blissey, which is an excellent Amoong switch in and Pex is never getting paralysed. Furthermore, trading burn and item loss with Pex severely cripples Amoongus in the long run, as Amoong doesn't run any recovery move and does not have god tier bulk like it's fellow Regen users. And a paralysed Pex can still pull it's weight, not to mention banking your breaking of Pex on RNG is a bad move in general.
- Hatterene & Zarude both cannot break Toxapex, they can only force a stalemate, which only serves the Toxapex's purpose of halting progress. Hatterene does not 2HKO with Psyshock and Pex easily speed creeps hat and clicks Haze. Zarude also cannot break Pex, who just needs to alternate between Haze & Recover, and will get a free turn or two courtesy of Power Whip misses.
- Having the limited pool of Pokemon that only forces Pex out (Toxtricity & Kyurem does only that, they are not "breaking" Pex as they have poor durability) does not remove the issue of Pex strangling the rest of the tier.
- Funny how you mention Pex cannot reliably counter Crawdaunt, Scizor and Dragapult, because it shows how you're conditioned to believe that Pex is supposed to counter >95% of the metagame's offensive threats. The only scenario these 3 mons (assuming you're talking about DD Dragapult as Pex is not supposed to take on Hex Pult) win vs Pex is if their user is able to outpredict the Pex user on multiple occasions.
- Toxapex's absurd bulk is definitely what pushes it over the edge, as Pex can afford to pull stunts like staying in on strong SE moves like Adamant Life Orb Zeraora's Plasma Fist, Specs Kyurem's Freeze Dry or Excadrill's Earthquake, dodge the OHKO and cripple back with Knock Off/Scald, then switch out and get enough health back to stay in the game due to Regen.
- Pex has the full freedom to run Toxic/Baneful Bunker as well depending on the team, so no reason to rule it out as well.
- Finally, OLT adaptations cannot be taken as proper metagame shifts, as OLT teams are made as a chain reaction of counter-teaming the most popular builds. That's why you saw a surge in Toxtricity in cycle 1 and it's fall from grace by cycle 3. Even the most successful teams have glaring weaknesses if you take the whole metagame into perspective. Even then, despite all these rapid changes, Toxapex remain unchanged as one of the most used, most successful and most influential mon in the tier.
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I'd like to take a moment to dissect the (two) councilmembers opinions on the current issues, and highlight them for the community to absorb and understand, because I think a lot of it gets drowned out, or people focus on the wrong things, when discussing it.
WITH REGARD TO WHY WE ARE NOT TESTING DURING OLT:
I think the best point of this statement is the one that isn't stated. I would like to highlight the statement: "This would not be a fair time to have any suspect"
While I disagree with the premise that the nature of the tournament should dictate whether a suspect happens (you can just lock in bans for the remainder of the tournament, not that hard to do), I do agree that it would be unfair for other reasons. Specifically:
A) Tournament players are pretty good.
B) Tournaments are stressful
C) Laddering is stressful
D) Laddering in a Toxapex meta where good fights take 100+ turns is excruciating.
E) Laddering for a suspect test is stressful
F) Since Tournament players are pretty good, they probably want to have a say in suspect tests
G) Combining the stress of the tournament with the stress of laddering for the suspect test gives extra unnecessary stress and takes away focus.
So, while I disagree in delaying a suspect test on Toxapex for many reasons, I do understand and accept that doing a suspect test right now in the middle of a tournament would be very stressful for a lot of players. I am sure they can handle it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I, for one, could never realistically play in a tournament and try to ladder for a suspect test simultaneously, while still doing my day job and not wanting to off myself.
Of course, we could just quickban Toxapex too and I don't think many people would mind, but that could be done after the tournament if necessary.
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With regard to Cinderace retesting:
Basically, what the council is saying is that Cinderace was a snap decision and we should make sure it was the correct one before moving on to other things. While I understand the reasoning, I do not accept its premise. Specifically, timing applies to anything we do at the moment, as Crown Tundra drops in 2-3 months. While Cinderace quickban was a bit sudden, nobody seriously thinks it wasn't going to get banned after a suspect test anyways (not unanimous support, but easily over the threshold to ban it). I don't think Cinderace is banworthy, but I am in a very small minority and I am usually against banning most things. The community has very very clearly spoken otherwise as to it being particularly banworthy. So, to be quite frank, a re-test of Cinderace right now is a colossal waste of time and if we actually do it then you are doing a huge disservice to the entire playerbase, tournament, ladder, etc. The proper thing to do would be to move on to other things and re-test Cinderace, and anything else deemed necessary, when we get Crown Tundra new mons.
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I think those two items were what most players here were concerned with and wanted more explanation on, which is why I condensed them here. While I want to see a Toxapex suspect test, I already acknowledged in my previous post that it's probably not going to happen anymore because of the time wasted already and the position of the council on re-testing Cinderace, which does not seem to be moving. It's a bit unfortunate, given the stranglehold Toxapex is going to have for the next 2-3 months, but we've dealt with this sort of thing before. I haven't played an OU ladder match in weeks because it's incredibly unfun with the current state of the meta, so I will continue to do other formats for a while. If you feel the same, don't kill yourself playing something that's terrible - just wait for action to be taken. And if you enjoy the cancerous meta, that's good, keep playing it - to each his own.
WITH REGARD TO WHY WE ARE NOT TESTING DURING OLT:
I think the best point of this statement is the one that isn't stated. I would like to highlight the statement: "This would not be a fair time to have any suspect"
While I disagree with the premise that the nature of the tournament should dictate whether a suspect happens (you can just lock in bans for the remainder of the tournament, not that hard to do), I do agree that it would be unfair for other reasons. Specifically:
A) Tournament players are pretty good.
B) Tournaments are stressful
C) Laddering is stressful
D) Laddering in a Toxapex meta where good fights take 100+ turns is excruciating.
E) Laddering for a suspect test is stressful
F) Since Tournament players are pretty good, they probably want to have a say in suspect tests
G) Combining the stress of the tournament with the stress of laddering for the suspect test gives extra unnecessary stress and takes away focus.
So, while I disagree in delaying a suspect test on Toxapex for many reasons, I do understand and accept that doing a suspect test right now in the middle of a tournament would be very stressful for a lot of players. I am sure they can handle it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I, for one, could never realistically play in a tournament and try to ladder for a suspect test simultaneously, while still doing my day job and not wanting to off myself.
Of course, we could just quickban Toxapex too and I don't think many people would mind, but that could be done after the tournament if necessary.
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With regard to Cinderace retesting:
Basically, what the council is saying is that Cinderace was a snap decision and we should make sure it was the correct one before moving on to other things. While I understand the reasoning, I do not accept its premise. Specifically, timing applies to anything we do at the moment, as Crown Tundra drops in 2-3 months. While Cinderace quickban was a bit sudden, nobody seriously thinks it wasn't going to get banned after a suspect test anyways (not unanimous support, but easily over the threshold to ban it). I don't think Cinderace is banworthy, but I am in a very small minority and I am usually against banning most things. The community has very very clearly spoken otherwise as to it being particularly banworthy. So, to be quite frank, a re-test of Cinderace right now is a colossal waste of time and if we actually do it then you are doing a huge disservice to the entire playerbase, tournament, ladder, etc. The proper thing to do would be to move on to other things and re-test Cinderace, and anything else deemed necessary, when we get Crown Tundra new mons.
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I think those two items were what most players here were concerned with and wanted more explanation on, which is why I condensed them here. While I want to see a Toxapex suspect test, I already acknowledged in my previous post that it's probably not going to happen anymore because of the time wasted already and the position of the council on re-testing Cinderace, which does not seem to be moving. It's a bit unfortunate, given the stranglehold Toxapex is going to have for the next 2-3 months, but we've dealt with this sort of thing before. I haven't played an OU ladder match in weeks because it's incredibly unfun with the current state of the meta, so I will continue to do other formats for a while. If you feel the same, don't kill yourself playing something that's terrible - just wait for action to be taken. And if you enjoy the cancerous meta, that's good, keep playing it - to each his own.
For much of generation 8, teams have shared the same structure due to the restricted pool of available Pokemon, not because of Toxapex.
And for the record, I personally found there to be sufficient diversity among builds post-DLC; remember that we had a lot more homogeneity during the Corviknight / Kyurem / Dugtrio metagame.
Let's talk about PP stalling. First of all, stall has been good throughout this generation, but never truly dominant as it has been in past gens. So if PP stall has become ubiquitous, that means balance has also adopted it as a tool to beat stall and other balances. This is actually a sign of offense being more powerful than anything else. Why? Because balance teams have to invest all their available resources into handling offensive threats and do not have the luxury to have dedicated stallbreaker(s) or what have you to beat defensive teams. With the option of PP stalling naturally available to them (not just from Toxapex, but anything with recovery), why would these teams go out of their way to weaken themselves to a large portion of the metagame just to have the option of an offensive win condition? The presence of PP stalling is a side-effect of teams being constrained by offense, not balance teams' only resort against defensive structures; otherwise, we'd have seen Ditto re-emerge a lot sooner, and not just on stall teams.
Every Pokemon that can switch into X serves as a safe X switch-in when there's nothing better; not sure what that's supposed to signify. Blissey being able to switch in doesn't matter; the Amoonguss user is still in a favorable position against a sleeping Blissey. It can either Spore another switch-in or get a free turn on Blissey with a correct prediction, whereas an incorrect prediction results in the same sequence again or a momentum loss in an incorrect matchup (and as balance against stall, this is such a low cost). Amoonguss can definitely afford to take burn + Knock for a lot of matchups, like the hypothetical stall matchup you mentioned involving Blissey, as well as if it's acting as the main counter only to Zeraora. Saying it's not bulky ignores how it's often played; it walls what it needs to and gets free opportunities to regenerate health on a lot of defensive staples, Toxapex included. Discounting the impact of paralysis is a mistake; paralysis is ubiquitous in the metagame for a good reason, and it's because you will get a lot of opportunities to attempt to break through its targets. It's RNG if you fish once; it's not RNG if you fish 4 times (31%) with something like a Dragapult or Aegislash for a full para on predicted recovers. You even mentioned creeping Hatterene in your next point; how are you going to do that if you're paralyzed?
Hatterene can also speed creep further, and I think it's fair game to assume that the more offensive Pokemon is going to win the speed creep war, especially since some Toxapex run -Spe for Knock Off damage. Zarude, on average, wins assuming it misses only 2 Power Whips (.15 * 16), and honestly, even if it stalls only 10-12 Recovers, I think that's probably sufficient depending on the rest of your team. Of course, the Toxapex can start Hazing on Bulk Ups rather than recovering, but then that opens the door for Zarude to force Pex out early by attacking on a Haze as well. In more practical scenarios, the odds will be tipped into Zarude's favor, because a team will have managed to status or Knock Toxapex, if not both, and I think this is a reasonable assumption since the fundamental complaint is that there is lack of things in the current metagame that can absorb burns/Knocks.
Toxtricity is a hyper-offense staple; every time the opponent is forced to switch, it's a win because that means you retain momentum and probably have hazards down to punish it on top of that. Kyurem is typically paired with Wish Clefable for sustain (and Modest Kyurem one-shots with Stealth Rock, so Toxapex is not risking staying in unless necessary). To say Toxapex strangles the rest of the tier is misleading; you're counting matchups that aren't skewed perfectly in the favor of the aggressor as a win for Pex when one-shotting a Toxapex from full isn't even an applicable scenario for a lot of teams. Toxapex is never going to be kept in perfect condition against a half-decent team. The three Pokemon I mentioned were intended as examples of Pokemon that Toxapex does not switch into and reliably counter, and I mentioned only three of them because I thought it was sufficient; there are obviously more.
If you're going to completely dismiss the OLT metagame, that means we have to delay a suspect test anyway because the past month wasn't a valid metagame and we have no actual recent data to go by. On which metagame would we be basing our decision to conduct a suspect test otherwise?
I don't like responding to point-by-point minutiae; I'd rather stick to high level discussion so it's easier for people to follow the conversation. This is the first and last time I'll do it for this topic. I think it's also worth clarifying that the position I hold as (co-)leader of the OU council is purely an administrative title and does not give my opinion any weight over any other council member's.
I don't need any Pokemon as a crutch to be a good player; pipe down.
I appreciate the effort put into your post, but at best this is misguided, and at worst this is just disingenuous. We've played with Toxapex for quite a while now, and I've never heard or even considered the idea of quick-banning Toxapex, not even once. A Pokemon has to be incredibly over centralizing and restrictive to even be considered for a quick ban, both of which don't apply to Toxapex. Not everyone thinks the same as you, and a quickban I feel would have far more backlash than you think. I would list ways teams deal with Toxapex, but I'd mostly just be rephrasing what Eo and others have already said.
Toxapex might be worthy of a test, but to imply it should be quick banned is ridiculous
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I think you're taking my point out of context - I don't think Toxapex should be quickbanned. I was saying it could be quickbanned, but only as an emphasis to the previous statements I made about how much time and stress a proper suspect test takes, especially during an ongoing tournament. The correct thing to do, of course, would be to suspect it ASAP, and not quickban it.
It's an idea that has seen quite a bit of discussion and the backlash would be misguided as the QB would almost certainly be followed up with a retest at a future point. I honestly think it's a great idea as it allows people to see what the tier is like without Toxapex for a bit and see if team building loosens up as expected. If it doesn't resolve team-building in the way we'd expect it to, then we could vote to unban it in a retest. I honestly wish some earlier issues had been handled this way, such as the post-gen Gen 5 Drought + Chlorophyll ban which may not have been necessary after Arena Trap was later banned. If Pex is suspected normally then it's unlikely to ever return to the tier even if later banning a different mon turns out to alleviate the Toxapex problem.
It seems your criteria that Toxapex needs to meet to be considered problematic is unreasonably high. You seem to think that the existence of long-term strategies that can potentially break Toxapex over the course of an entire game to be good enough to keep Pex in the tier.
Toxapex is broken because it is too good at it's job of sponging hits, halting progress and spreading knock offs/burns. It's longevity allows it to continue doing that for extended periods of time without being sufficiently worn down. Having immense bulk on both sides allows to Pex to cherry pick what it wants to wall and be very hard to force out. And offensively, you can only force out Toxapex by the very limited pool of Pokemon that has the combination of high enough attack stats and STAB SE moves. Even the dedicated stallbreakers, which is a specialized role itself, can only give you inconsistent results, subject to variables such as speed creep, multiple turns of prediction, the amount of Recover PP Toxapex has left etc.
Honestly, the more this thread went on, the more it became clear that there is a clear bias for preserving defensive Pokemon in the tier among those who hold the power to make administrative decisions. If the tiering decision makers upheld the same standard of brokenness/unhealthiness for offensive Pokemon that they are upholding for Toxapex, 90% of Smogon's bans would have never happened.
Also, the uselessness of community discussion regarding suspecting has become clear as well. No matter the consensus of the community, the personal opinion(s) of the council member(s) will ultimately dictate the tier unchallenged.
I mean... yes? That is absolutely good enough. You want this game to be easy and to not have to plan your moves beyond what youre clicking next turn and thats just not how it is right now. Honestly a lot of ban arguments are starting to just sound like youre mad you can't OHKO it, and don't want to put in the work required to earn the KO. You also have access to knock offs and statuses and hazards, use them instead of complaining about losing to them.
Throw in a voting phase and this thread has basically became a toxapex suspect test of its own.
Suspect testing pex or not, why would we ever waste time suspect testing Ace? I get we'd want to "confirm' the decision was correct, but we all know the outcome of the ace suspect test if it wasn't quickbanned, it was way too offensively oppressive. I have yet to hear from a council member why they think ace would be balanced in the current metagame (especially when we're already stacked with offensive threats atm) to even justify wasting an entire month of suspect testing it when it got quickbanned. Nothing has changed since ace was surveyed, and quickbanned, besides magearna going with it, and magearna wasn't an answer to ace (at most, it benefitted off of the offensive pressure ace caused, while ace dealt with other magearnas.) Just sounds like a massive time sink for the sake of stalling to DLC.
Suspect testing pex or not, why would we ever waste time suspect testing Ace? I get we'd want to "confirm' the decision was correct, but we all know the outcome of the ace suspect test if it wasn't quickbanned, it was way too offensively oppressive. I have yet to hear from a council member why they think ace would be balanced in the current metagame (especially when we're already stacked with offensive threats atm) to even justify wasting an entire month of suspect testing it when it got quickbanned. Nothing has changed since ace was surveyed, and quickbanned, besides magearna going with it, and magearna wasn't an answer to ace (at most, it benefitted off of the offensive pressure ace caused, while ace dealt with other magearnas.) Just sounds like a massive time sink for the sake of stalling to DLC.
I'm generally against most bans but cmon you're being unfair to the pro-ban side. The problem with Pex is that it requires even more effort to KO it. The combination of Regenerator, Haze, status, toxic immunity, knock off and good mixed bulk means that it has ways to bypass a lot of its checks and is incredibly forgiving for a defensive pokemon. Saying "knock offs and statuses and hazards" is a terrible argument when that applies to MOST defensive Pokémon, and those things do not even cripple Toxapex as hard as other defensive Pokémon. A good toxapex player has ways to work around its limited checks and counters.
i think the problem with
is way way deeper than this. toxapex forces you to play a different route as this defensive threat isn't easy to OHKO. the problem here isnt just that, the issue with why pex being discussed first place is its sheer ability to put its usual checks on a timer wether it is knocking off a boosting item, the heavy-dusty boost or scald-burning things it would get forced out by usually. we've seen it in WCoP-games more than enough that even setting up infront of its face isnt that easy considering the many excadrills, etc it burned while they are attemtpting to get a swords dance-boost. toxapex sheer bulk allows it to stay in on even super effective hits and it is capable of knocking or scald burning or toxicing offensive and defensive threats alike. and it has nothing to do with "we want the games to be easy", it has moreso something to do with "toxapex is centralizing the metagame in its own way" and therefore pex is on the radar of many users tournament- and ladder-players alike. toxapex has also regenerator to gain health back and with enough smart double-switches it is (almost) back to 100% of its hp-stat.
i think toxapex is forcing many players to play on a different route and many teams have status-absorbers like clefable to disable pex' to status the rest of the team. and this clearly shows that pex is a metagame-defining mon in itself. when a pkmn wether it was dracovish or it is urshifu or pex creating an unhealthy string on a metagame it is worth of discussing a potential suspect test in the near or far future. and this has nothing to do with "we want the game to be ez", if that would be the fact than many other mons would have been banned as well already.
we cannot deny thw fact that toxapex is upon the teambuilding-process very centralizing already and we should really look deeper into the pros and cons of this mon, but arguing that we want the game to be ez is just simply very flawed from the first point of view.
What status bothers pex much again ? It doesn't much mind burn , its immune to toxic and sleep is an annoyance , but acces to regenerater means it can still heal when asleep . It doesn't mind hazards much due to its incredible longevity aside from maybe 3 layers of spikes which is not very common in this meta. As for knock off well, again due to its longevity, it dosent necessarily need it's black sludge to remain healthy . Your forced to run stuff to counter it and that's what makes it unhealthy. It can invest fully into defence and still take strong hits on the special side with impunity. You can't even trick it as black sludge is gonna mess with you hard
I do not agree with everything you said prior to this point, but there was at least some basis behind those opinions. I can respect any argument that is grounded in firsthand experience and I respect your argument on Toxapex. However, I do not respect or appreciate this unnecessary and simply untrue addition to your post whatsoever.
Community discussion, which supposedly shows its "uselessness [of community discussing] regarding suspecting" according to you, is what led to so many different pieces of tiering action previously. Let's go over the times this generation alone that disprove your claim.
Dynamax? There was a 50 page metagame discussion thread that led to our decision to suspect it. If that is not convincing enough, we also cited numerous posts made in this forum during discussion in the ban explanation post.
Moody and Galarian Darmanitan? Dozens of posts on both in the same metagame discussion thread that prompted us to act on both. You can even notice the dates on discussion of Moody in that thread precede the date of the Moody quickban directly.
Arena Trap? Hmmm more discussion that "coincidentally" happened right before a suspect test? -- half of this thread is people discussing Dugtrio, so we acted on it once Pokemon Home passed and the metagame settled. I wanted to act on it before Pokemon Home, too, but the timing blindsided us. Discussion prompted potential action before and then real action right after things got settled.
I could go on and make an exhaustive list, but I hope my point is proven. This generation, I allowed for discussion of potential suspects in the metagame discussion thread for the first time when I was forum leader and tier leader. In prior generations, community outreach was limited and there were problems with the limited accessibility of the OU suspect process. However, your grievances this generation are invalid in their current form. There is direct proof (not to mention my own firsthand accounts, including personally being influenced by posts made in this thread) that discussion does matter and you guys should post your thoughts.
Obviously the opinions of councilmen matter. That is why they are in place. But that can coexist with the communities input mattering and there is direct proof of this being the case. This does not even mention the recent playerbase survey initiative that we cited as reason for both pieces of recent tiering action, too.
You are using one disagreement with Eo, who clearly stated an opinion contrasting that of your own which had plenty of valid points that you dismissed entirely without rebuttal, to make a sweeping claim about the entire thread and the culture of our subforum and tiering. As someone who spent lots of time increasing transparency and trying to empower the voices of the people, I do not appreciate this and implore you to reconsider. If you wish to follow-up, do so in PM to avoid derailing the thread.
Could you please elaborate on team building "loosening up"? What exactly is un-viable because of Toxapex, apart from maybe other bulky waters? Bulky water types have been a stable for every generation for as long as I've been playing (in and out since gen4). How exactly does it restrict team building? Running teammates or coverage for one of the premier walls in the game isn't what I'd classify as restricting. Certain things such as Alakazam might fall in usage if Pex is banned, but I think you're imagining a completely different meta to what I'm seeing, so I'd love to see how you feel the meta would look without Pex.
This just...isn't true. I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but the majority of good teams take into account the best Pokemon of the tier, and have answers for said Pokemon. With this logic pretty much any Pokemon can be considered broken.
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Keldeo. It has fallen out purely because of pex . Yes it cant break bulky grasses or such like, but those same mons were there in gen 6 and it was really good. And before you say power creep there is very little power creep caused by gen 8 and any power creep that is there was caused by pex.
So according to what you said being forced to run mons to counter a mon dosent make it broken. By that logic mag was perfectly balanced to the tier as it forced you to do was to run a mon that could counter it like blissey or pex itself
Keldeo has a lot of competition as as offensive Water type from the likes of Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Primarina. Keldeo also struggles with very common Pokemon such as Zeraora, Amoonguss, and Dragapult. I doubt Keldeo's usage would significantly rise given a Toxapex ban, and even if it did so what? What makes you so sure a metagame with Keldeo would be better?
Yes. Whether you like it or not you're forced to run checks / counters to the most popular Pokemon, and this would be the same regardless of what metagame you play. Responding to the top threats in a metagame doesn't make said threats automatically broken. I have no doubt that every single good team has an answer or a way around Pokemon such as Clefable, Dragapult, Zeraora, Rillaboom, etc. Doesn't mean any of these Pokemon are broken, and Toxapex is no different.
'Purely'? Pex didn't just make Keldeo drop. I have made a post about this already.
- Rain is worse due to Mega Swampert being cut
- Power creep, such as new Pokemon like Dragapult, and Zeraora which was UU last gen
- Amoonguss rising in usage as well as Slowbro which are both OU this gen
- It was falling towards the end of last gen anyway
- Status