Even if Zama-C gets unbanned, I doubt Weavile will lose all its viability. That isn’t to say of course that it won’t take a hit from having such a hard counter suddenly getting introduced to the tier, but part of the reason Weavile is so good right now is its matchup vs Pokémon like Torn-T, Chomp, Lando-T, and lots of others which I don’t think get dramatically worse with Zama-C in the tier.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Shouldn’t have to delete a half dozen posts about Zama-C when my post earlier made it explicitly clear that this thread is not for ZamaC discussion and the suspect thread will be open after 24h. This is the always the case and for something so new, circumventing the 24h rule isn’t ok. Any future posts are just going to be infracted at this point — it’s been made clear multiple times and people just don’t listen.
Oops.
Anyways, I wanted to at least save my point about Slowking. Slowking has risen from a sleeper pick to a legit force in the meta, and I would argue the regular Slowking is actually in a better position right now than its Slowbrother. Slowbro has traditionally been better by virtue of its physically defensive prowess, but it actually has a rather unimpressive matchup against most of the physical powerhouses of OU right now. Rillaboom tears through it like butter, Bisharp 2HKOs before SD, Lando, Excadrill and Garchomp smack it hard with EQ at +2 (Chomp can't even be 2HKOed by Scald), it can't safely come in against Kartana or Zeraora, Melmetal clobbers it if Banded, and while Hawlucha can't break it, it's always paired with a Tapu or Rilla, so Bro can be easily weakened before Lucha even comes out. Besides Lucha, the only physical threats that consistently struggle against Bro are Urshifu and Dragonite; everything else has at least one option that breaks Bro. Since both of the Slow twins struggle against most of the physical meta, it's simply more logical to use the one that at least has some staying power against the special attackers.
The other factor compared to Bro is the list of other defensive staples; overall, there are more physical walls/semi-walls than there are special ones, meaning that King inherently faces less competition for its role. Looking at the current sets in terms of dominant defensive stat:
Physically Defensive: Clefable, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, defensive Garchomp, Hippowdon, defensive Lando, Mandibuzz, non-Band Melmetal*, Pelipper, Skarmory, Toxapex, defensive Zapdos
Specially Defensive: Blissey, defensive Heatran, Swampert, defensive Fini, Tyranitar
*Melmetal invests more in SpD but its Def is still higher before items.
These mons aren't in direct competition with each other (not trying to say they are), but as a whole special wall/specially defensive isn't as crowded a market as the physical side right now and Blissey is the only other one with reliable recovery. Since a bunch of physDef mons listed have a better matchup than Bro against the current meta, I'd say you're generally better building one of those + King. Also Pex is usually physDef, and you want to compete with Pex as little as possible. Bro definitely has its place, but I'd say King generally slots in a lot easier right now.
I'd like to Introduce a new Echo fighter..
The one cost of running Slowking is it means you can't run Glowking; that said, I would argue that both Kings are really good in the meta and both have their place. The difference of Teleport means these two are naturally inclined to take on subtly but significantly different functions, as lacking Teleport means Glowking is better at running the sinister RegenVest combo, which alongside a Toxic immunity is enough to make up for its inability to pivot. Basically, it's a matter of which perks appeal to your team more:
Slowking
-Teleport
-Not weak to EQ
-Can recover without switching (since its not running AV)
Glowking
-Not weak to VoltTurn
-Toxic immunity
-More offensive pressure
-Poison- fishing with Sludge Bomb
There are certain situations where one King is definitively superior; Slow pairs better with Ferro since they cover each others weakness really well (plus Ferro can punish U-turn), and Glow pairs better with Corv and Skarm since it doesn't require a third slot for an Electric immunity. Overall, however, I would argue that both are great meta picks and both are looking to potentially get even better. Unless some big shift unexpectedly happens (and knowing my predictions, it probably will).
Anyways, I wanted to at least save my point about Slowking. Slowking has risen from a sleeper pick to a legit force in the meta, and I would argue the regular Slowking is actually in a better position right now than its Slowbrother. Slowbro has traditionally been better by virtue of its physically defensive prowess, but it actually has a rather unimpressive matchup against most of the physical powerhouses of OU right now. Rillaboom tears through it like butter, Bisharp 2HKOs before SD, Lando, Excadrill and Garchomp smack it hard with EQ at +2 (Chomp can't even be 2HKOed by Scald), it can't safely come in against Kartana or Zeraora, Melmetal clobbers it if Banded, and while Hawlucha can't break it, it's always paired with a Tapu or Rilla, so Bro can be easily weakened before Lucha even comes out. Besides Lucha, the only physical threats that consistently struggle against Bro are Urshifu and Dragonite; everything else has at least one option that breaks Bro. Since both of the Slow twins struggle against most of the physical meta, it's simply more logical to use the one that at least has some staying power against the special attackers.
The other factor compared to Bro is the list of other defensive staples; overall, there are more physical walls/semi-walls than there are special ones, meaning that King inherently faces less competition for its role. Looking at the current sets in terms of dominant defensive stat:
Physically Defensive: Clefable, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, defensive Garchomp, Hippowdon, defensive Lando, Mandibuzz, non-Band Melmetal*, Pelipper, Skarmory, Toxapex, defensive Zapdos
Specially Defensive: Blissey, defensive Heatran, Swampert, defensive Fini, Tyranitar
*Melmetal invests more in SpD but its Def is still higher before items.
These mons aren't in direct competition with each other (not trying to say they are), but as a whole special wall/specially defensive isn't as crowded a market as the physical side right now and Blissey is the only other one with reliable recovery. Since a bunch of physDef mons listed have a better matchup than Bro against the current meta, I'd say you're generally better building one of those + King. Also Pex is usually physDef, and you want to compete with Pex as little as possible. Bro definitely has its place, but I'd say King generally slots in a lot easier right now.
I'd like to Introduce a new Echo fighter..
The one cost of running Slowking is it means you can't run Glowking; that said, I would argue that both Kings are really good in the meta and both have their place. The difference of Teleport means these two are naturally inclined to take on subtly but significantly different functions, as lacking Teleport means Glowking is better at running the sinister RegenVest combo, which alongside a Toxic immunity is enough to make up for its inability to pivot. Basically, it's a matter of which perks appeal to your team more:
Slowking
-Teleport
-Not weak to EQ
-Can recover without switching (since its not running AV)
Glowking
-Not weak to VoltTurn
-Toxic immunity
-More offensive pressure
-Poison- fishing with Sludge Bomb
There are certain situations where one King is definitively superior; Slow pairs better with Ferro since they cover each others weakness really well (plus Ferro can punish U-turn), and Glow pairs better with Corv and Skarm since it doesn't require a third slot for an Electric immunity. Overall, however, I would argue that both are great meta picks and both are looking to potentially get even better. Unless some big shift unexpectedly happens (and knowing my predictions, it probably will).
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I really hope zamazenta-c drops because after reading damage calcs, zamazenta after setting up an iron defense completely destroys hdb/life orb cinderace. I think if zamazenta-c drops down, cinderace may actually be truly checkable. Shield doggo can live any hit from cinderace after iron defense, (It doesn't even get a guaranteed okho on zamazenta-c) and can just hit play rough if it goes for high jump kick. In other words, zamazenta-c dropping is a great thing due to the upcoming Cinderace test. And it could truly be a surefire Cinderace check once the Cinderace retest happens, and may actually keep it from being broken. Regardless this thing is gonna be great on bulky offense, but it by no means busted, especially being vulnerable from hazards, spikes, burns, corviknight, etc;
You forget the part where Zama can't switch in unless it wants get 2HKOed by Pyro Ball without being able to OHKO back (you can if you're Adamant, but then Cinderace outspeeds you). But yeah, it'd be nice to at least have one more mon that can revenge kill it after some chip.
Anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on Sylveon rn? I've been trying it even before the Zamazenta suspect as probably the best Kyurem check in the game while checking other special threats like Dragapult, Hydreigon and Koko quite nicely, and now it got even better as a mon that can support Zama with wishes and Heal Bell imo
Why use Sylveon over Clefable?
I believe it would be used due to its higher special defense, allowing it to stomach Kyurem and Dragapult’s hits better than Clefable. I still find Clefable marginally better, with WishPort.
Higher Special Defense and the ability to hit Pokémon like Kyurem or Dragapult behind Substitute thanks to Pixilate Hyper Voice. Obv Clefable is still vastly superior but Sylv is at least not as painfully outclassed as it was when mons like Urshifu were in the tier imo.
let's talk about freed offensive pokemon
what izzup. for a while i havent posted on the meta discussion thread and felt like contributing something. after playing the recent meta i wanted to talk about how much of an impact some of the offensive pokemon have made, considering some were freed from cinderace and magearna bans and generally made positive contributions to the tier. i wouldnt call this a direct resource as this is more of a mental post in regards to a certain mon(s)/element which is what the meta discussion thread is for and i was interested to discuss. only going to limit these to a few mainly due to the time block i've been on.
zama impacted some of these, but i'm going to exclude that because not going to put up with that meme in this thread
victim 1: bisharp
evidently enough, the cinderace and magearna bans have contributed massively to bisharp's performance, removing 2 offensive checks on the spot. i vouch for this mon heavily as it has been performing well in the tier for some time, the situations you can bring to the table vary. either being 50/50s or limiting your opponent's switch-ins heavily. bisharp's 125 base atk access to priority can make it a big threat from a general standpoint, but the meta has been much softer to it in return.
choice band and sd are bisharp's easily fittable go-to sets, you can either win the game in practice by punching holes on offense or punch holes of your own with bisharp's assortment of moves. knock off is amazing as ever, forcing common safe switches into bisharp such as corviknight and and removing their lefties / helmet. forcing defensive bisharp switch-ins can allow you to threaten an SD in prospect, allowing you to either finish up the game after the slightest amount of chip.
this is the first time bisharp gets to use choice band, and it's fantastic. you can easily move your 3 atks of choice to the cb set as they're your primary stabs and all it needs to be a threat on the field. beat up, while team dependent, is definitely an option and can nuke switch-ins at some point. assurance is another option, if not niche, which is easily replaceable if you can keep hazards up consistently. pairing bisharp with spikes is bread and butter as hazard damage allows assurance to double its power to 120 BP. while it only works on the switch, you can easily be threatening with it.
victim 2: dragapult
i feel like this should go without saying. dragapult is easily the best wallbreaker in the metagame due to two reasons: the rarity of ghost resists in the meta that it can constantly abuse, and the general removal of specs, av etc magearna removed another offensive check on its radar. dragapult has proven itself two DLC metas in a row (if not the beginning, but i cant vouch for that) and it is easily fantastic.
specs is the most fittable dragapult set, and OU's best wallbreaker. draco meteor and shadow ball are the two stabs you can use, which comes in clutch in plenty of situations and easily spammable in the tier. with no abundance of steels and fairies, draco is a force to be reckoned with. u-turn is a nice glue for plenty of situations and dragapult's main way to get momentum. you can also get other breakers in safely, a common situation is pult luring blissey / heatran and bringing out a breaker such as kartana / lando and threatening the opposing team. status support is a nice pairing with dragpault allowing it to make it even more difficult to switch into, which is effectively stronger than specs shadow ball. flamethrower is an option if you struggle more with steels not named heatran.
hexpult is a more instant set to exert pressure with off the rim without having to worry about being locked into a move. a status option is also dependent on what your team needs.
literally a weaker specs pult. it looks like a fantastic breaker on paper but in general i don't think it's great in this meta right now.
victim 3: kyurem
kyurem has become much more relevant in the metagame. this mon has also benefitted from the cinderace and magearna bans, you could argue for spectrier helping its case as well; in general it's hard to prepare for and ice is a fantastic offensive typing in the metagame. ability to manually 6-0 teams with ease is one of its best traits, and being a general nuisance.
kyurem's flagship set, which is an absolute nuiscane. behind the sub, you can PP stall the opponent and become an immediate threat. boots are preferred so you can get on the field unpunished for a free switch-in. freeze-dry is your primary STAB, which can hit waters such as slowking, urshifu-r, and fini. earth power can hit heatran, drill and zone for super effective dmg. this is easily kyurem's most threatening set in the meta rn.
specs is a more immediate option, trading the merit of PP stalling for tons of wallbreaking power. with rocks up corviknight can no longer switch into specs ice beam, and other types of situations where some pokemon struggle to switch in.
thanks for reading
what izzup. for a while i havent posted on the meta discussion thread and felt like contributing something. after playing the recent meta i wanted to talk about how much of an impact some of the offensive pokemon have made, considering some were freed from cinderace and magearna bans and generally made positive contributions to the tier. i wouldnt call this a direct resource as this is more of a mental post in regards to a certain mon(s)/element which is what the meta discussion thread is for and i was interested to discuss. only going to limit these to a few mainly due to the time block i've been on.
zama impacted some of these, but i'm going to exclude that because not going to put up with that meme in this thread
victim 1: bisharp
Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Bisharp @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Beat Up / Assurance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Bisharp @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Beat Up / Assurance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
evidently enough, the cinderace and magearna bans have contributed massively to bisharp's performance, removing 2 offensive checks on the spot. i vouch for this mon heavily as it has been performing well in the tier for some time, the situations you can bring to the table vary. either being 50/50s or limiting your opponent's switch-ins heavily. bisharp's 125 base atk access to priority can make it a big threat from a general standpoint, but the meta has been much softer to it in return.
choice band and sd are bisharp's easily fittable go-to sets, you can either win the game in practice by punching holes on offense or punch holes of your own with bisharp's assortment of moves. knock off is amazing as ever, forcing common safe switches into bisharp such as corviknight and and removing their lefties / helmet. forcing defensive bisharp switch-ins can allow you to threaten an SD in prospect, allowing you to either finish up the game after the slightest amount of chip.
this is the first time bisharp gets to use choice band, and it's fantastic. you can easily move your 3 atks of choice to the cb set as they're your primary stabs and all it needs to be a threat on the field. beat up, while team dependent, is definitely an option and can nuke switch-ins at some point. assurance is another option, if not niche, which is easily replaceable if you can keep hazards up consistently. pairing bisharp with spikes is bread and butter as hazard damage allows assurance to double its power to 120 BP. while it only works on the switch, you can easily be threatening with it.
victim 2: dragapult
Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Hex / Flamethrower
Dragapult @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty-Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Dragapult @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Hex / Flamethrower
Dragapult @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty-Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
Dragapult @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
i feel like this should go without saying. dragapult is easily the best wallbreaker in the metagame due to two reasons: the rarity of ghost resists in the meta that it can constantly abuse, and the general removal of specs, av etc magearna removed another offensive check on its radar. dragapult has proven itself two DLC metas in a row (if not the beginning, but i cant vouch for that) and it is easily fantastic.
specs is the most fittable dragapult set, and OU's best wallbreaker. draco meteor and shadow ball are the two stabs you can use, which comes in clutch in plenty of situations and easily spammable in the tier. with no abundance of steels and fairies, draco is a force to be reckoned with. u-turn is a nice glue for plenty of situations and dragapult's main way to get momentum. you can also get other breakers in safely, a common situation is pult luring blissey / heatran and bringing out a breaker such as kartana / lando and threatening the opposing team. status support is a nice pairing with dragpault allowing it to make it even more difficult to switch into, which is effectively stronger than specs shadow ball. flamethrower is an option if you struggle more with steels not named heatran.
hexpult is a more instant set to exert pressure with off the rim without having to worry about being locked into a move. a status option is also dependent on what your team needs.
literally a weaker specs pult. it looks like a fantastic breaker on paper but in general i don't think it's great in this meta right now.
victim 3: kyurem
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
kyurem has become much more relevant in the metagame. this mon has also benefitted from the cinderace and magearna bans, you could argue for spectrier helping its case as well; in general it's hard to prepare for and ice is a fantastic offensive typing in the metagame. ability to manually 6-0 teams with ease is one of its best traits, and being a general nuisance.
kyurem's flagship set, which is an absolute nuiscane. behind the sub, you can PP stall the opponent and become an immediate threat. boots are preferred so you can get on the field unpunished for a free switch-in. freeze-dry is your primary STAB, which can hit waters such as slowking, urshifu-r, and fini. earth power can hit heatran, drill and zone for super effective dmg. this is easily kyurem's most threatening set in the meta rn.
specs is a more immediate option, trading the merit of PP stalling for tons of wallbreaking power. with rocks up corviknight can no longer switch into specs ice beam, and other types of situations where some pokemon struggle to switch in.
thanks for reading
In response to Magnezone usage rising up, I have been experimenting with different Corviknight sets that I wanted to share, lmk what you guys think:
Corviknight @ Shed Shell
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
Shed Shell can be put instead of the usual Leftovers or Rocky Helmet to improve Magnezone matchup, but to be honest it's not really all that great for multiple reasons:
Corviknight @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe OR 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Brave Bird / Body Press
Unlike Skarmory, Corviknight has access to U-turn and if it theoretically outspeeds Magnezone, it can U-turn out to safety. The problem is that it has to outspeed Magnezone, which is actually quite a decent investment, but far from worthless. With 92 Spe Corviknight will outspeed most Magnezones who run the suggested smogon spread of 140 Spe or the 96 Spe to speed creep Skarmory and neutral speed base 70s. Alternatively, an investment of 164 Spe allows Corviknight to outspeed Crawdaunt, Mandibuzz, Azumarill, and even the stray 0 speed Heatran or Tapu Fini. It also allows you to outspeed more versions of Magnezones, including 216 Spe Magnezone (speed creeping Crawdaunt) which preps for more matchups specifically.
Although the loss of bulk and slower U-turns is pretty significant, outspeeding Crawdaunt and pretty much most Magnezones not running Specs is pretty huge. This won't fit every team, but teams that have a solid check to Rillaboom/Kartana/Garchomp will definitely appreciate this. If paired with Body Press it can actually be quite a decent surprise and might even pick off a weakened Mandibuzz or a chipped Crawdaunt.
Corviknight @ Shed Shell
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
Shed Shell can be put instead of the usual Leftovers or Rocky Helmet to improve Magnezone matchup, but to be honest it's not really all that great for multiple reasons:
- Corviknight loses important utility in Rocky Helmet / Leftovers in exchange to improve specific Magnezone matchup only
- Corviknight can very easily be Knock Off'd, as common Magnezone teammates are Kartana and Rillaboom. Furthermore, Corviknight finds itself more often than not forced to switch onto Toxapex or Ferrothorn which also Knock Off its item.
Corviknight @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe OR 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Brave Bird / Body Press
Unlike Skarmory, Corviknight has access to U-turn and if it theoretically outspeeds Magnezone, it can U-turn out to safety. The problem is that it has to outspeed Magnezone, which is actually quite a decent investment, but far from worthless. With 92 Spe Corviknight will outspeed most Magnezones who run the suggested smogon spread of 140 Spe or the 96 Spe to speed creep Skarmory and neutral speed base 70s. Alternatively, an investment of 164 Spe allows Corviknight to outspeed Crawdaunt, Mandibuzz, Azumarill, and even the stray 0 speed Heatran or Tapu Fini. It also allows you to outspeed more versions of Magnezones, including 216 Spe Magnezone (speed creeping Crawdaunt) which preps for more matchups specifically.
Although the loss of bulk and slower U-turns is pretty significant, outspeeding Crawdaunt and pretty much most Magnezones not running Specs is pretty huge. This won't fit every team, but teams that have a solid check to Rillaboom/Kartana/Garchomp will definitely appreciate this. If paired with Body Press it can actually be quite a decent surprise and might even pick off a weakened Mandibuzz or a chipped Crawdaunt.
Gonna continue the Dragapult hype train for a minute. I firmly believe this is without a doubt the best offensive Pokemon in the meta right now. It's not only one of the most versatile Pokemon when it comes to its set diversity, but it can pull off just about anything it wants to do and do it well. Specs is a tried and true set, and so is the Hex and Scarf set, but let me show you a set I made for a screens offense build that has become my personal favorite: Sub Dragon Dance.
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator / Clear Body
EVs: 144 HP / 180 Atk / 64 SpD / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
This set is a demon when paired with screens. I can't tell you how many times I bring Dragapult in, see the opponent go into Blissey/Chansey/whatever special defense mon, and see the figurative life choices being reconsidered when the funny green stuffed animal comes out. I'd then proceed to use the opportunity to collect my free DDs and sweep. On the team this was on, it was also paired with Rillaboom to give it extra passive recovery via Grassy Surge, weaken Lando's EQ, and remove Tapu Fini's Misty Terrain to keep Dragon Darts at max strength.
You don't have to take the shown EVs as gospel. I firmly believe this set can be custom tailored to your preference regarding what you want your Dragapult's sub to live (or if you just want max Attack Adamant which is fine, too). This set, while behind screens, allows it to prevent Banded Rillaboom's Grassy Glide and uninvested Alolan Ninetales's Freeze Dry from breaking the sub while also being fast enough to naturally outspeed Weavile and Modest opposing Dragapult. Your choice of Infiltrator or Clear Body is up to you. Infiltrator gives you a better matchup vs opposing Screens and Sub users, while Clear Body prevents Intimidate from Landorus-T or Sticky Web from slowing you down.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1320820954-mb267ej0dvk0opedjhafee6vz5oxhrqpw
Dragapult saves me from a pretty rough start in an HO vs HO match. I end up using the opponent's Sticky Web against them as I'm Encore-locked into Sub, which allows me to be behind Sub after Encore wears off, effectively winning me the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1320818049-n8qc89l7kp67761ekiihm7epmvj5eqepw
Alolan Ninetales Encore-locks Volcarona into Flamethrower which gives Dragapult nearly-free Sub DDs.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1321179040-lhckwpyavst1glkqmpxfrivie8qdc8cpw
This one features an updated team as I realized Grimmsnarl was a better partner and screens setter in general than Alolan Ninetales. Anyway, the game itself wasn't all that good, but it hilariously ends with a forfeit the moment I reveal Sub in front of Blissey.
After watching Finchinator's new video, I will pose the question in the thread - is Volcorona unhealthy for the tier? Extreme versatility ensures it is picking its own checks (like a toned down Magearna). I have no strong opinion on the matter but I do agree with Finch that Volc is much more threatening and centralizing than something like Zamazenta-C (which receives tons of hysterical commentary on how centralizing it will be when it's at best, just an ok mon). Discuss!
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From my 37-game experience using Volcarona (the physically bulky set), I don't think it's unhealthy. Don't get me wrong, it's still quite good, but not at all banworthy. If bulky, it often can't have enough coverage to beat some mons (I ran Psychic over Bug Buzz, so the Slowtwins walled Volc), and if offensive, its longevity isn't the best.
For Zamazenta-C, I've said this before, but I'm leaning unban and would vote that way if I was good enough to get reqs (in those 37 games I mentioned my record was just 22-15). It's very good and can destroy unprepared teams, especially in low ladder (1000-1300), but Volc and Zapdos beat it straight-up, Toxapex walls it even with Wild Charge, ID and BU Corviknight kind of just blank it if they get in safely, and it requires quite a bit of team support to have good staying power.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
No, Heavy-Duty Boots are not a broken item in themselves. If they are that good, why did they not make Charizard OU at any time? Whilst Zapdos is probably better off than it was last gen with Boots, nobody is claiming that it needs a suspect, are they? The only case an item or move should be banned is if they make all Pokemon with them, even garbage Pokemon like Dugtrio and Gothitelle, look broken, if they introduce a broken archetype or mechanic (like weather abilities being banned in the lower tiers due to the teammates they enable, not the mons with the abilities, and Baton Pass teams), or if something adds a completely new broken feature to a healthy Pokemon (like gen 7 UU banning Kommonium Z instead of Kommo-o as it changed the way you could use Kommo-o completely, which Heavy-Duty Boots do not do).
It is clearly abusers that are broken not the item, and people forget a drawback of them: most Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon could use other items but the drawback of hazard damage makes them often unusable. For instance, without Boots Cinderace might use Life Orb for more power or Protective Pads to avoid Rocky Helmet chip, and Volcarona could use Lum Berry to avoid status when setting up, Shed Shell to escape Heatran, or Passho Berry to avoid the Urshifu-R revenge kill.
Regenerator on pokemons avoiding spikes or absorbing tspikes was a first mistake.
Stealth Rocks dammaging 25% or 50% on pokemons is the second aberration.
Then Boots ...
Why not testing meta without those 3 ? We can also test on an aside meta (like OU ; OUblitz ; OUtest)
Boots is an incredibly unhealthy item in OU and it's what makes Volcarona and what made Cinderace harder to handle than they would if Boots wasn't as omni-present both in-game and in the builder. It allows mons to come in for free with no repercussion of hazards on the field, to the point of almost thoughtless game-play especially with Volt-Turn cores. You can add something like Torn-T to the list considering people complain about this mon as well and the issue is boots negating the use of Stealth Rock for these mons that would otherwise not be as oppressive if Boots was not part of the metagame. There's a list of other mons such as Weavile that make them harder to deal with due to boots but this is probably more so as a result of the next point.
I think it's time for OU to look at Future Sight as a mechanic, preferably by itself, to be suspected. Whether or not it should be in conjunction with Teleport/Regen can be up for debate. Removing a pokemon, lets just say the main users in Slowbro, Slowking, G-King is also not a great solution as things like Slowking provide defensive utility for balance to deal with things like Heatran, Tapu Lele which can sometimes be oppressive for bulkier or slower builds. People wanted Slowbro removed when the original talks of Future Sight was being discussed but now Slowking, at least until Zama drops down to OU most likely, is the main abuser of it. You can't even pinpoint a specific mon as the issue with Future Sight besides maybe Regenator Teleport which again can be up for debate.
I can't speak for the lower tier formats but OU imo has a major issue with a combination of Heavy Duty Boots, Future Sight imo. It would be nice if these mechanics could be removed from OU without affecting the lower tiers that probably don't have to deal with the constraints OU has since HDB probably isnt an issue in formats below.
I think it's time for OU to look at Future Sight as a mechanic, preferably by itself, to be suspected. Whether or not it should be in conjunction with Teleport/Regen can be up for debate. Removing a pokemon, lets just say the main users in Slowbro, Slowking, G-King is also not a great solution as things like Slowking provide defensive utility for balance to deal with things like Heatran, Tapu Lele which can sometimes be oppressive for bulkier or slower builds. People wanted Slowbro removed when the original talks of Future Sight was being discussed but now Slowking, at least until Zama drops down to OU most likely, is the main abuser of it. You can't even pinpoint a specific mon as the issue with Future Sight besides maybe Regenator Teleport which again can be up for debate.
I can't speak for the lower tier formats but OU imo has a major issue with a combination of Heavy Duty Boots, Future Sight imo. It would be nice if these mechanics could be removed from OU without affecting the lower tiers that probably don't have to deal with the constraints OU has since HDB probably isnt an issue in formats below.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
If we think Future Sight is becoming too centralising but no Pokemon can be blamed directly for using it, then is suspecting Future Sight's primary target not the better option? I'm pretty sure it would be much less necessary without Toxapex in the tier.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
That still doesn't mean I'm gonna stop hating on this overrated lizard all because gamefreak goes gaga over Charizard. For fuck's sake how sweet it would be if Zard was part of the mons that were removed in swsh
I'm honestly surprised that someone agreed with me that boots is bs. That was exactly the point on why I think boots should be banned but I'm not gonna talk about that anymore since the mods might get mad
On future sight, I can honestly agree that it is bs. I don't think it is broken on its own. There were talks about it a few months ago of how stupid future sight is when combined with teleport and regenerator. I was like 'just fucking ban future sight' and while I did say back then and even now that fs isn't broken, it's either a complex ban or we choose one between teleport, regenerator and fs. Out of the three, I pick fs to be banned. Either that or teleport because it somewhat feels somewhat unfair when one works to get momentum with volt switch or u turn and then the opponent just teleports out and shifts the momentum in their favor. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one that thinks that is bs as well. Then again, that's life. Since when is anything fair
TailGlowVM I really can't tell if that's sarcasm or if you really hate Toxapex
I'm honestly surprised that someone agreed with me that boots is bs. That was exactly the point on why I think boots should be banned but I'm not gonna talk about that anymore since the mods might get mad
On future sight, I can honestly agree that it is bs. I don't think it is broken on its own. There were talks about it a few months ago of how stupid future sight is when combined with teleport and regenerator. I was like 'just fucking ban future sight' and while I did say back then and even now that fs isn't broken, it's either a complex ban or we choose one between teleport, regenerator and fs. Out of the three, I pick fs to be banned. Either that or teleport because it somewhat feels somewhat unfair when one works to get momentum with volt switch or u turn and then the opponent just teleports out and shifts the momentum in their favor. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one that thinks that is bs as well. Then again, that's life. Since when is anything fair
TailGlowVM I really can't tell if that's sarcasm or if you really hate Toxapex
I do think there is a moderately unhealthy loop in the current meta related to future sight, boots, teleport and regenerator (without naming the slowtwins). I am not a high enough level player to really say which is the element that's the worst to deal with but I think reasonable people can agree that either part of futureport can be problematic. I think part of this is a natural consequence of having Toxapex in the tier too. If there was a community survey I'd love to see people's thoughts on:
-Slowtwins
-Future Sight
-Teleport
-Boots
-Regenerator
-Toxapex
And go from there. Some of these elements erase game progress and some of them make progress. It's very hard to get a sense of which is the causal element in this pile but it is worth serious discussion.
-Slowtwins
-Future Sight
-Teleport
-Boots
-Regenerator
-Toxapex
And go from there. Some of these elements erase game progress and some of them make progress. It's very hard to get a sense of which is the causal element in this pile but it is worth serious discussion.
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Looking at Pex as a main symptom isnt even the right angle. Mons you would normally go to in an attempt to soak a Future Sight are abused by some sort of fighting coverage or dark coverage usually in the form of Knock Off. Then you have the issue of Knock off absorbers not able to soak a Future Sight, like Pex but there's other like Clefable that can't do this because there's some part of the individual users of Knock Off mons that makes this a terrible option (imaging switching your Clefable into Kartana lmfao). That's why I think Future sight is the issue with the above chain up above.
AM managed to say what I was thinking in a very concise manner, banning toxapex because of the dominance of Fsight sounds incredibly biased, ignores that there are other Fsight targets and it is trying to predict a metagame that doesnt really exist.
I am in favor of a survey that targets how does everyone feel about the loop of boots, regen and Fsight and to determine is mons like the slowtins might be broken/unhealthy.
But first we gotta make it through this zamazenta test and see how the metagame accomodates if zamazenta is unbanned.
This is something I definitely disagree with. Blaming a target of something that could be considered to be broken as a way to try and decrease its use doesn't address the problem at hand, as Future Sight + Teleport is a strategy with a fundamental appeal in the form of very strictly enforcing progress. Smashing Toxapex is a benefit, but by no means is it the main reason it's used whatsoever.
Regarding a suspect on Future Sight and Teleport, I feel as though the big issue with it is less the moves themselves, but rather the combination of the moves in tandem with Regenerator, letting Future Sight strategies actually perform reliably.
Future Sight alone requires pivoting support to safely facilitate abusers, as otherwise the move requires skill and smart positioning to work to its fullest effect. Teleport, on the other hand, is good as a pivoting move, but not great; most Teleport users have to either capitalize on a switch or take a move prior to pivoting, making it a move with a clear opportunity cost on Pokemon like Clefable or Blissey which rely on being healthy to check what they need to. Both moves in their own right are fine, even when used in combination with one another, since there's typically an opportunity cost in using both of them.
However, Futureport as a strategy is only as powerful as it is because of the Slowtwins' access to Regenerator. They skyrocket its viability by not only being able to safely pivot and position abusers, but also having Regenerator so they can more liberally set Future Sight checkmates up with little to no consequence, which you would otherwise have; if anything, I feel as though the issue is with the Slowtwins' ability to exploit their tools to create maximum value on Future Sight on a whim, as opposed to the moves themselves being necessarily broken. It feels dishonest to suspect either move when neither of them alone are the issue, and it's rather the full package of the Slowtwins that surge them into potential brokenness.
I think your analysis is spot on. Many people have an understandable aversion to saying "Slowbro is Uber" but I think it's worth sitting with. Slowtwins are the only ones with all the problematic elements together, any other potential ban is likely over inclusive.