Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Boots is an incredibly unhealthy item in OU and it's what makes Volcarona and what made Cinderace harder to handle than they would if Boots wasn't as omni-present both in-game and in the builder. It allows mons to come in for free with no repercussion of hazards on the field, to the point of almost thoughtless game-play especially with Volt-Turn cores. You can add something like Torn-T to the list considering people complain about this mon as well and the issue is boots negating the use of Stealth Rock for these mons that would otherwise not be as oppressive if Boots was not part of the metagame. There's a list of other mons such as Weavile that make them harder to deal with due to boots but this is probably more so as a result of the next point.

I think it's time for OU to look at Future Sight as a mechanic, preferably by itself, to be suspected. Whether or not it should be in conjunction with Teleport/Regen can be up for debate. Removing a pokemon, lets just say the main users in Slowbro, Slowking, G-King is also not a great solution as things like Slowking provide defensive utility for balance to deal with things like Heatran, Tapu Lele which can sometimes be oppressive for bulkier or slower builds. People wanted Slowbro removed when the original talks of Future Sight was being discussed but now Slowking, at least until Zama drops down to OU most likely, is the main abuser of it. You can't even pinpoint a specific mon as the issue with Future Sight besides maybe Regenator Teleport which again can be up for debate.

I can't speak for the lower tier formats but OU imo has a major issue with a combination of Heavy Duty Boots, Future Sight imo. It would be nice if these mechanics could be removed from OU without affecting the lower tiers that probably don't have to deal with the constraints OU has since HDB probably isnt an issue in formats below.
 

TailGlowVM

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If we think Future Sight is becoming too centralising but no Pokemon can be blamed directly for using it, then is suspecting Future Sight's primary target not the better option? I'm pretty sure it would be much less necessary without Toxapex in the tier.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
That still doesn't mean I'm gonna stop hating on this overrated lizard all because gamefreak goes gaga over Charizard. For fuck's sake how sweet it would be if Zard was part of the mons that were removed in swsh

I'm honestly surprised that someone agreed with me that boots is bs. That was exactly the point on why I think boots should be banned but I'm not gonna talk about that anymore since the mods might get mad

On future sight, I can honestly agree that it is bs. I don't think it is broken on its own. There were talks about it a few months ago of how stupid future sight is when combined with teleport and regenerator. I was like 'just fucking ban future sight' and while I did say back then and even now that fs isn't broken, it's either a complex ban or we choose one between teleport, regenerator and fs. Out of the three, I pick fs to be banned. Either that or teleport because it somewhat feels somewhat unfair when one works to get momentum with volt switch or u turn and then the opponent just teleports out and shifts the momentum in their favor. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one that thinks that is bs as well. Then again, that's life. Since when is anything fair

TailGlowVM I really can't tell if that's sarcasm or if you really hate Toxapex
 
I do think there is a moderately unhealthy loop in the current meta related to future sight, boots, teleport and regenerator (without naming the slowtwins). I am not a high enough level player to really say which is the element that's the worst to deal with but I think reasonable people can agree that either part of futureport can be problematic. I think part of this is a natural consequence of having Toxapex in the tier too. If there was a community survey I'd love to see people's thoughts on:

-Slowtwins
-Future Sight
-Teleport
-Boots
-Regenerator
-Toxapex

And go from there. Some of these elements erase game progress and some of them make progress. It's very hard to get a sense of which is the causal element in this pile but it is worth serious discussion.
 
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Looking at Pex as a main symptom isnt even the right angle. Mons you would normally go to in an attempt to soak a Future Sight are abused by some sort of fighting coverage or dark coverage usually in the form of Knock Off. Then you have the issue of Knock off absorbers not able to soak a Future Sight, like Pex but there's other like Clefable that can't do this because there's some part of the individual users of Knock Off mons that makes this a terrible option (imaging switching your Clefable into Kartana lmfao). That's why I think Future sight is the issue with the above chain up above.
 
If we think Future Sight is becoming too centralising but no Pokemon can be blamed directly for using it, then is suspecting Future Sight's primary target not the better option? I'm pretty sure it would be much less necessary without Toxapex in the tier.
AM managed to say what I was thinking in a very concise manner, banning toxapex because of the dominance of Fsight sounds incredibly biased, ignores that there are other Fsight targets and it is trying to predict a metagame that doesnt really exist.
I am in favor of a survey that targets how does everyone feel about the loop of boots, regen and Fsight and to determine is mons like the slowtins might be broken/unhealthy.
But first we gotta make it through this zamazenta test and see how the metagame accomodates if zamazenta is unbanned.
 

ausma

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If we think Future Sight is becoming too centralising but no Pokemon can be blamed directly for using it, then is suspecting Future Sight's primary target not the better option? I'm pretty sure it would be much less necessary without Toxapex in the tier.
This is something I definitely disagree with. Blaming a target of something that could be considered to be broken as a way to try and decrease its use doesn't address the problem at hand, as Future Sight + Teleport is a strategy with a fundamental appeal in the form of very strictly enforcing progress. Smashing Toxapex is a benefit, but by no means is it the main reason it's used whatsoever.

Regarding a suspect on Future Sight and Teleport, I feel as though the big issue with it is less the moves themselves, but rather the combination of the moves in tandem with Regenerator, letting Future Sight strategies actually perform reliably.

Future Sight alone requires pivoting support to safely facilitate abusers, as otherwise the move requires skill and smart positioning to work to its fullest effect. Teleport, on the other hand, is good as a pivoting move, but not great; most Teleport users have to either capitalize on a switch or take a move prior to pivoting, making it a move with a clear opportunity cost on Pokemon like Clefable or Blissey which rely on being healthy to check what they need to. Both moves in their own right are fine, even when used in combination with one another, since there's typically an opportunity cost in using both of them.

However, Futureport as a strategy is only as powerful as it is because of the Slowtwins' access to Regenerator. They skyrocket its viability by not only being able to safely pivot and position abusers, but also having Regenerator so they can more liberally set Future Sight checkmates up with little to no consequence, which you would otherwise have; if anything, I feel as though the issue is with the Slowtwins' ability to exploit their tools to create maximum value on Future Sight on a whim, as opposed to the moves themselves being necessarily broken. It feels dishonest to suspect either move when neither of them alone are the issue, and it's rather the full package of the Slowtwins that surge them into potential brokenness.
 
This is something I definitely disagree with. Blaming a target of something that could be considered to be broken as a way to try and decrease its use doesn't address the problem at hand, as Future Sight + Teleport is a strategy with a fundamental appeal in the form of very strictly enforcing progress. Smashing Toxapex is a benefit, but by no means is it the main reason it's used whatsoever.

Regarding a suspect on Future Sight and Teleport, I feel as though the big issue with it is less the moves themselves, but rather the combination of the moves in tandem with Regenerator, letting Future Sight strategies actually perform reliably.

Future Sight alone requires pivoting support to safely facilitate abusers, as otherwise the move requires skill and smart positioning to work to its fullest effect. Teleport, on the other hand, is good as a pivoting move, but not great; most Teleport users have to either capitalize on a switch or take a move prior to pivoting, making it a move with a clear opportunity cost on Pokemon like Clefable or Blissey which rely on being healthy to check what they need to. Both moves in their own right are fine, even when used in combination with one another, since there's typically an opportunity cost in using both of them.

However, Futureport as a strategy is only as powerful as it is because of the Slowtwins' access to Regenerator. They skyrocket its viability by not only being able to safely swapping into abusers, but also having Regenerator so they can more liberally set it up with little to no consequence, which you would otherwise have; if anything, I feel as though the issue is with the Slowtwins' ability to exploit their tools to create maximum value on the move, as opposed to the moves themselves being necessarily broken. It feels dishonest to suspect either move when neither of them alone are the issue, and it's rather the full package of the Slowtwins that surge them into potential brokenness.
I think your analysis is spot on. Many people have an understandable aversion to saying "Slowbro is Uber" but I think it's worth sitting with. Slowtwins are the only ones with all the problematic elements together, any other potential ban is likely over inclusive.
 
Ban boots. This is literally why I think boots is fucking bullshit. Volcarona would be far easier to get rid of if it actually gets punished for switching in. Fucking gamefreak and their stupid Charizard fetish
Don't ban boots. This is literally why I think boots are completely fine. Volcarona would be borderline unviable or at least will struggle greatly if it actually gets punished for switching in. Thanks gamefreak and their amazing Charizard fetish (not really but Volcarona likes it so I like it).
 
Now that we are talking about problematic moves and items, I would like to talk about knock off.

I think knock off is a badly designed move for singles (especially with the lack of z-moves and megas) that forces progress in a very easy and direct manner. Its popularity is absurd, pretty much every pokemon that has access to the move uses it; from sweepers to wall breakers to defensive and utility mons. I mean even Alakazam in UU uses it, which by itself I think it says a lot about the questionable design of the move and its respective use in our metagames.

There have been other moves like stealth rock that were (and still are to a degree) extremely popular in the past, but at least there are ways to interact with the move that allow you to stop the progress if u make the right plays, like defog and rapid spin before it. With knock off it feels like there is no alternative but to accept that you will lose a core component of ur team (and yes, even lefties on pex are an important component) at least once knowing that your opponent did not even make a read or position their mons correctly, they just knew that by clicking that move *something* would get crippled.

After playing for a year and getting to 1900s, then trying out vgc and now coming back to singles, I must say that there are many glaring problems with our way to play that I do not understand how we accept them without discussing them more, knock off is one of these problems

and in good third world country fashion, sorry for my bad english and thank you for reading, I hope I am not the only one who feels this way about knock off.
 
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Now that we are talking about problematic moves and items, I would like to talk about knock off.
I definetively agree that knock off, especially in SS OU, is an incredible move, basically every team has at least one knock off user and it is a very effective way to force progress on matches.
However apart from that I genuinly dont see where this dicussion could lead, are we suggesting that we should ban knock off? What would the ban of knock off accomplish? It would only make matches slower and staler, it would lead to a more brainless gameplay and lazy teambuilding without any sort of significant reward.
Does knock off hold items back? No actually no, boots are incredibly dominant and some people want them banned, which clearly means that knock off isnt this broken force that you seem to be describing
This isnt even a situation of "broken check broken", removing knock off just because it doesnt let every mon freely switch in without a risk doesnt make sense...
Personally I belive that the current dynamic of knock off and boots is very healthy, and even if we dont have a literal knock absorber like past gen (even though zama might be unbanned) mons like pex and tangrowth are functional enough to prevent knock off from doing furhter progress.
I dont want to undermine your experience as a player and knock off might be the best move in the game, but banning knock off will literally accomplish nothing.
 
idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)
 
idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)
melmetal is pretty good, as Double iron bash wrecks kyurem through sub, and you dont have to worry about much except for possible earth power, which isn't the most common of it if I rememmber right
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)
Scizor counters Kyurem, as does Blissey when you have Teleport + either Dragapult (to revenge kill it through a Substitute) or something that is faster, takes one hit, and can OHKO after removing the Substitute. I also tried Choice Scarf Kommo-o to revenge kill it through the Substitute with Clanging Scales, but wouldn't recommend that unless you are bored.

More generally, the best thing is to have something that scouts the set like Clefable and have separate answers for Specs and SubRoost (for example, Volcarona walls and sets up on SubRoost but can't switch into Specs Draco Meteor).
 
idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)
Blissey doesn't lose to subroost kyurem, you just stall out all his moves with soft boiled.
 

Finchinator

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Pressure doesn’t impact recovery moves, but regardless Kyurem mainly dislikes Blissey because of Teleport loops. You can either waste 2 PP for 1 by Teleporting out and then swapping back in OR you can bring in something faster to KO it like Infiltrator Dragapult. It’s still an awkward sequence and it leads to predictable play that Kyurem teams can take advantage of, but offensively, Kyurem is absolutely contained in that scenario.
 

Abhi

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Hello there :afrostar:
Since we're talking about moves, I'd like to bring up Trick, because I am having too much fun with it.

^good song
Trick is a move that seems simple enough, the user swaps its item with the foe, but it is so much more than that. Its the ultimate fuck you in pokemon; being able to completely ruin some pokemon while being able to severely hinder others, its amazing. Theres a lot of good abusers of trick in the current tier Scarf Tapu Fini, Sticky Barb Clefable, and Blacephalon and a bunch more niche ones of which Assault Vest Loppuny is probably my favourite(I know Loppuny gets Switcheroo and not Trick but they're literally the same move). This move is godly, and is probably my favourite check to set up sweepers usually with the combination of Choice Scarf, Trick can also cripple users checks very well usually leaving them in a vulnerable position and often unable to check threats. I'll now be going into different Trick/Switcheroo users that I like to use.

:ss/tapu-fini:
Tapu Fini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Trick
- Defog

Tapu Fini is probably the best user of Trick in the current meta, since it can be a soft check to many threats like Heatran, Dragapult and Urshifu-R as well act as a more unexpected form of speed control. It can also use Defog rather reliably since it can force enough switches against common Stealth Rock users like Landorus-T, Garchomp and Heatran. Then comes Trick which is what makes me like this mon as much as I do, it's amazing and pairs great with pokemon that abuse its ability to trick some of its defensive switch ins like Blissey, Toxapex and Ferrothorn, namely Dragapult and Kyurem who really appreciate these mons being crippled. Scarf Tapu Fini also acts as a good check to Volcarona no matter it's set since its able to completely stop it in its tracks with Trick while getting Heavy-Duty Boots in return removing its hazard weakness.​

:ss/blacephalon:
Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat / Psychic

- Trick
Everybody was clowning on this clown until it got used in ost finals, now it's still clowned on but less so. This clown is absolutely brutal, its base 151 SpA makes its Shadow Balls and Flamethrowers are hard to switch into with the combination of Trick which can make switching into this clown very hard, it's a real IT situation (it's even a ghost type). Overheat makes this Clown so hard to wall especially with a Choice Specs, which although removes its ability to snowball late game while also being incredibly fast is still very good to severely dent the foe. Trick makes this pokemon just so good, None of its checks appreciate being Tricked nor do they fare well after being tricked, it is brutal; this makes it a great partner for Dragapult since it really appreciates Blacephalons ability to cripple common Ghost-resistant pokemon. I even have a team with it.

:ss/Lopunny:
Lopunny @ Assault Vest
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo

- U-turn
- Magic Coat / Ice Punch
- Thunder Wave / Toxic

This waifu-like pokemon is actually so funny to use in battle and I've been experimenting with it recently, it often leaves the opposing defensive core crippled leaving them unable to do much against its teammates. Lopunnys ability to bait in pokemon like Corviknight, Zapdos and Skarmory and cripple them is very useful for pokemon like Swords Dance Garchomp and Rillaboom, however be sure to not use Knock Off with Rillaboom while against these pokemon since that ruins the entire point of Lopunny. Magic Coat is pretty good in my experience since it can ruin attempts by Landorus-T and other Stealth Rock users to try to set up on it, while trying to force it out. Ice Punch is also pretty nice since it can deal with Landorus-T and Garchomp rather well while also inviting in Skarmory and Corviknight so it can Trick them. Using this on Hazard stack is very fun since it very often baits in defog users, although smarter players tend to scout for a Switcheroo since it is known for its Assault Vest shenanigans.

Anyways that's all I have to say about these mons and trick, Bye!:blobwizard:
 
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Finchinator

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The surge in item displacement this generation is largely a reaction to the departure of mega stones and Z crystals, which occupied 2 item slots on most teams last generation in some capacity. Being able to Trick or Knock Off all 6 Pokemon makes these moves far more valuable in the early game and in general. Abh does a great job outlining their viability and it is always amusing seeing occasional counterplay such as running your own Trick Clefable to minimize the impact, Sticky Hold Gastrodon to deter Trick usage, or Assault Vest users to lock Clefable types into Trick.

As Abh outlines, Scarf Tapu Fini is a great, surprise Trick user in the metagame. It also offers great support to offensive teams that one cannot underestimate between Defog and Misty Terrain. I think Trick + Black Sludge on Gengar and Galarian Slow can also be a comically good combination, even if gimmicky, that is worth noting in this conversation as well.
 
Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 120 SpA / 48 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / Nature Power
- Knock Off

An interesting tangrowth set I've been playing around with, pleasantly surprised that it wasn't nearly as gimmicky as I was expecting, but I'm not a particularly good player either so who knows. I came up with the set because while I saw how great defensively tangrowth looked to be, with the lack of hidden power ice I didn't like how it couldn't necessarily force out mons it's meant to check like garchomp and landorus-t. Special attack investment and choice specs solved this issue, with 120 spatk evs with a quiet nature letting leaf storm ko offensive garchomp (after lo recoil) and landorus. 48 spdef evs let it avoid the 2hko from pivot koko's dazzling gleam, rest going into def so it can do it's job more consistently. Getting knocked off is annoying but it doesn't really impact it's defensive capabilities and knock off + sludge bomb still give it a presence, letting it severely annoy flying types like torn-t, zapdo and mandibuzz. What's most interesting to me is the fact that I've even had tangrowth break past corviknight on one occasion, with focus blast being able to 2hko physically inclined variants and the fact tangrowth is actually slower means it can't safely roost. You would have to hit two focus blasts, though, and pressure means you can't really rely on that. Knock off also makes ferrothorn and heatran far less reliable in checking tangrowth throughout an extended match even without having to predict with focus blasts. I've also had toxapex's try to switch in and getting severely weakened by leaf storm, letting some teammates like zama-c sweep later on. Tangrowth can also check opposing zama-c's to an extent, not 2hko'd by an unboosted zama-c and can ko a chipped one with focus blast, or even ko it from full if it makes the mistake of clicking CC, which I've had on several occasions. Of course, you need to rely on focus blasts hitting. Koko is a great partner as it can switch into the flying types tangrowth dislikes while tangrowth can switch into the ground types koko dislikes and break down the opposing team like this.

120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 319-376 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 247-292 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 248-294 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



EDIT: Nature power paired with Koko (who it already pairs well with) is also a great option as suggested by TailGlowVm below, and the calcs seem very promising
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 268-316 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain: 302-356 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 183-216 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
 
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TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 120 SpA / 48 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

An interesting tangrowth set I've been playing around with, pleasantly surprised that it wasn't nearly as gimmicky as I was expecting, but I'm not a particularly good player either so who knows. I came up with the set because while I saw how great defensively tangrowth looked to be, with the lack of hidden power ice I didn't like how it couldn't necessarily force out mons it's meant to check like garchomp and landorus-t. Special attack investment and choice specs solved this issue, with 120 spatk evs with a quiet nature letting leaf storm ko offensive garchomp (after lo recoil) and landorus. 48 spdef evs let it avoid the 2hko from pivot koko's dazzling gleam, rest going into def so it can do it's job more consistently. Getting knocked off is annoying but it doesn't really impact it's defensive capabilities and knock off + sludge bomb still give it a presence, letting it severely annoy flying types like torn-t, zapdo and mandibuzz. What's most interesting to me is the fact that I've even had tangrowth break past corviknight on one occasion, with focus blast being able to 2hko physically inclined variants and the fact tangrowth is actually slower means it can't safely roost. You would have to hit two focus blasts, though, and pressure means you can't really rely on that. Knock off also makes ferrothorn and heatran far less reliable in checking tangrowth throughout an extended match even without having to predict with focus blasts. I've also had toxapex's try to switch in and getting severely weakened by leaf storm, letting some teammates like zama-c sweep later on. Tangrowth can also check opposing zama-c's to an extent, not 2hko'd by an unboosted zama-c and can ko a chipped one with focus blast, or even ko it from full if it makes the mistake of clicking CC, which I've had on several occasions. Of course, you need to rely on focus blasts hitting. Koko is a great partner as it can switch into the flying types tangrowth dislikes while tangrowth can switch into the ground types koko dislikes and break down the opposing team like this.

120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 319-376 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Any reason for Tangrowth not to be Modest over Quiet when Knock Off is purely for the utility? You could also try Nature Power with Tapu Koko to have access to Thunderbolt to hit Corvknight, Mandibuzz and Skarmory more reliably.
 
Any reason for Tangrowth not to be Modest over Quiet when Knock Off is purely for the utility? You could also try Nature Power with Tapu Koko to have access to Thunderbolt to hit Corvknight, Mandibuzz and Skarmory more reliably.
I had a dragapult hard switch into a knock off and live with a sliver of health one time and I couldn't think of anything modest let me outspeed meaningfully. Also, did not consider nature power, and since tangrowth already matches very well with koko that sounds like a great idea, ty.
EDIT: Quiet is also a bit better vs sub SD lando that might try to pp stall leaf storm if you have focus blast over nature power (tri attack)
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 76-90 (23.8 - 28.2%) -- 93.9% chance to 4HKO
 
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