Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

positionally, teleport does allow some good momentum from a defensive position. but i think its abit too skilless and easy for players to exploit with regen cores and doesnt reward the players who play with an aggressive style
 
positionally, teleport does allow some good momentum from a defensive position. but i think its abit too skilless and easy for players to exploit with regen cores and doesnt reward the players who play with an aggressive style
I disagree with this point, as I feel that FuturePort is most abusable on bulky offense structures, particularly with the duo of Slowking and Urshifu.

We have already established what the Slowtwins do in OU - click Future Sight, then teleport out to bring in a breaker safely and regenerate health back. While this strategy has been seen in previous generations with the "slow u-turn" concept, Teleport takes this further, as even the slowest Pokemon cannot attempt to punish this switch with a status ailment, knock off, or strong attack onto the breaker. Slowking is a great partner for Urshifu, who can tank strong special hits that threaten the bear, and is the most popular Slowtwin variant in OU as a result.

Once the breaker is actually in, it is very difficult for the opponent to position themselves favorably. One strategy I have seen employed to counteract Future Sight is with Protect - while FS does hit through protect, bulky Psychic resists and Dark types take little to no damage from the move, and Protect allows you to avoid taking damage from the breaker's attack. This is useful when paired with a defensive pivot like Toxapex, who does not take FS well but can switch in and check most of the physical metagame with Rocky Helmet the following turn.

Slowking + Urshifu nullifies this, as Unseen Fist causes contact moves to hit through Protect, forcing the target to always take an attack from (usually Choice Banded) Urshifu in addition to a 120 BP Future Sight. This has led to the increased centralization of the defensive metagame towards the Slowtwins themselves, as the only viable Pokemon that can realistically stomach this combination are Slowbro, physically defensive Slowking, and physically defensive Dragonite with Multiscale intact. When you factor in how hard it is to actually punish this sequence of plays (good luck actually Knocking Off Slowking's boots against a competent player), it is unsurprising to me that people are looking at Teleport as the issue.
 
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One Mon I'm surprised I haven't seen much chat about is Unaware Clefable. I think this mon single handedly puts massive strain on the entire metagame and forces teams to run certain mons. When I'm creating a team, I always have to consider how I'm going to beat Unaware Clefable, and to a lesser extent Quagsire. Clef with it's ability to remove status through Heal Bell and boost up alongside, and simply ignore opposing special sweepers is an entirely different animal to the Quagsire and Unaware Clef teams of the past that had to run Wish. Clef fits on non stall teams now too. CM Unaware Clef is even able to overcome ratchet sets like Stored Power Latias, Galarian Slowbro and Reuniclus since it ignores the CM Boosts and just beats them 1v1 with its own Calm Minds.

The Bold 252HP/252Def set with Moonblast/Softboiled/Heal Bell/Calm Mind is able to 1v1 huge swathes of the OU metagame including huge threats like Dragapult, Dragonite, Hydreigon, Garchomp, Hawlucha, Kyurem, SD Rillaboom, Koko, Torn, Volcarona, as well as any non Choice Band or Specs user. If you don't have a super effective move to hit it with - which leaves you with moves like Gunk Shot, Poison Jab and Iron Head it can often just be impossible to beat. It beats so many setup mons, that if you're facing an Unaware Clef with one, you're essentially playing 5vs6 since the Unaware Clef user can always go to Clef to simply Softboiled off any damage and threaten a sweep of its own with Calm Mind. Even special poison types like Gengar and Nidoking can't switch in and beat it if it gets the jump on you by Calm Minding on the switch. Bulkier setup mons like Tapu Fini, Moltres Galar, and Tapu Bulu are just as useless against it.

The days of breaking through stall via a well crafted setup opportunity are well and truly over now that Unaware Clef has Softboiled to spam to beat them. You're left with Steel type physical setup sweepers like SD Kart, Scizor, Bisharp, and Aegislash if you truly want to beat a well crafted stall team now, but it's not like these teams won't be running Iron Defence Skarm/Corv to just switch in and counter you. Other non steel type physical boosting mons just don't cut it.

I'm convinced that Unaware Clef is at least part of the reason why the metagame is now so dominated by Choice Banded and Choice Specs breakers, because what's the point in running Bulk Up Zeraora or DD Dragapult or Clang Kommo-o, or insert any other mon that requires multiple boosts to win a game. If the opponent is using Unaware Clef you will never execute a sweep that you've positioned yourself for, over the course of a long, drawn out SWSH game. I've lost count of the amount of games I've played against opponents who've cocked up, and really deserve to be swept for making poor plays, only for them to be bailed out by Unaware Clef completely negating any progress I thought I might have made. It makes the setup mon you have made pretty useless for the rest of the game too.

I know it has flaws - it can take passive damage and loses to some staples like Heatran, Ferrothorn, Melmetal etc, but that is what your team mates are for.

I would go as far as saying Unaware Clef makes many games pretty uncompetitive, and would be interested to see if anyone else shares the same opinion.
 
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I disagree with this point, as I feel that FuturePort is most abusable on bulky offense structures, particularly with the duo of Slowking and Urshifu.

We have already established what the Slowtwins do in OU - click Future Sight, then teleport out to bring in a breaker safely and regenerate health back. While this strategy has been seen in previous generations with the "slow u-turn" concept, Teleport takes this further, as even the slowest Pokemon cannot attempt to punish this switch with a status ailment, knock off, or strong attack onto the breaker. Slowking is a great partner for Urshifu, who can tank strong special hits that threaten the bear, and is the most popular Slowtwin variant in OU as a result.

Once the breaker is actually in, it is very difficult for the opponent to position themselves favorably. One strategy I have seen employed to counteract Future Sight is with Protect - while FS does hit through protect, bulky Psychic resists and Dark types take little to no damage from the move, and Protect allows you to avoid taking damage from the breaker's attack. This is useful when paired with a defensive pivot like Toxapex, who does not take FS well but can switch in and check most of the physical metagame with Rocky Helmet the following turn.

Slowking + Urshifu nullifies this, as Unseen Fist causes contact moves to hit through Protect, forcing the target to always take an attack from (usually Choice Banded) Urshifu in addition to a 120 BP Future Sight. This has led to the increased centralization of the defensive metagame towards the Slowtwins themselves, as the only viable Pokemon that can realistically stomach this combination are Slowbro, physically defensive Slowking, and physically defensive Dragonite with Multiscale intact. When you factor in how hard it is to actually punish this sequence of plays (good luck actually Knocking Off Slowking's boots against a competent player), it is unsurprising to me that people are looking at Teleport as the issue.
If Teleport is the issue, then why is it a normal and not overpowered part of like every other metagame? I don't think anything in any other tier has ever gotten banned due to access to Teleport (it could have happened once or twice that I'm not aware of, but it's at least rare). Plenty of mons have access to it, and a good chunk of them never even use it. You'll see Teleport on defensive pivot sets on mons like Arcanine and Porygon2. Beheeyem sometimes uses Future Sight+Teleport. Xatu runs it on screens or sometimes pivot sets. Wigglytuff can WishPort. It exists on mons like Gardevoir and Magmortar and Starmie, which could use it to capitalize on forced switches, but they never run it. Blissey likes to use it. Clefable, one of the best mons in OU, gets Teleport and runs it quite rarely.

What is the common thread between all of these mons? Teleport breaks none of them. If the move is broken, shouldn't other mons that get the move be broken? Shouldn't more mons that get it at least actually run it? It exists as a normal and healthy part of lower tiers and even OU, with the only two arguable exceptions being the slow twins.

If you're gonna ban something, ban the slow twins. The collateral damage of a Teleport ban would be significant, and Teleport is not broken.

Edit:
Future sight also exists on a plethora of non-broken mons. Most mons that get it don't even run it. There are even quite a few non-slow twin Future Sight+Teleport users, and none of them are even good, much less broken, even within their own tiers. Don't ban Future Sight either.
 
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I really think that if we're going by the option that gives the least collateral damage, we should ban Future Sight. The slowtwins are incredible defensive Pokémon that keep some of the top threats in check. Teleport is a really widespread move whose ban would without a doubt hurt a lot of Pokémon. And then there's Future Sight, who is used by around 2 mons without counting the slowtwins, as the combination of Regenerator + Teleport is really neccessary to make full use of the move. It seems to me what should be banned in this situation (if anything should be at all) is clearly Future Sight.
 
I really think that if we're going by the option that gives the least collateral damage, we should ban Future Sight. The slowtwins are incredible defensive Pokémon that keep some of the top threats in check. Teleport is a really widespread move whose ban would without a doubt hurt a lot of Pokémon. And then there's Future Sight, who is used by around 2 mons without counting the slowtwins, as the combination of Regenerator + Teleport is really neccessary to make full use of the move. It seems to me what should be banned in this situation (if anything should be at all) is clearly Future Sight.
I mean, Slowking-Galar noticeably uses it, plus a plethora of lower tier pokemon, so...

IMO neither of these should be banned, but if they are to be banned the pokemon are the element to be targeted
 
Longtime lurker here, since late gen 4/early gen 5 (but I only became an ok player in gen 6 lol), I made an account recently to respond to the OU player surveys (I’m super grateful to the council for that initiative by the way, it lets people like me who don’t like posting publicly to contribute to the development of the tier, thank you!). I am a casual player who often dips in and out of Showdown, but I usually manage to play in the 1700-1900+ range on the ladder (I’m not saying this to brag, I know I would probably suck in tourney and you can get away with so much matchup-fishy/gimmicky garbage on the ladder lol, I just want to impress upon you that my opinion isn’t terribly uninformed, despite this being my first public post).

Anyway, I was going to post in the Zama discussion thread since I just managed to get reqs, but I saw this ongoing teleport/slowtwin discussion and I had to weigh in, because I have some strong feelings here and right now there is no clear consensus on what to do.

I actually have been a major fan of the OU tier since the mag/cinderace bans. In fact, while this might be an unpopular opinion, I think the last time I liked the current gen OU meta this much was in ORAS. However, if I do have two complaints with this tier as it stands, it is 1) the often sluggish pace of games due to constant pivoting with regenerator mons and heavy duty boots, and 2) the problematic regenerator+future sight+teleport slowtwin strategies. Of these two, the first point is more about personal preference than something truly being “broken,” I think, but the slowtwin issue is more controversial, as this thread is showing.

As many have noted here, the difficulty with this regenfutureport combo is that it is not clear what the most broken aspect is. A lot of people have already weighed in on this, but I hope you will indulge me if I throw my hat into the ring here:

1) Teleport: I am leading with this because there has been some anti-teleport sentiment here which I disagree with strongly. Throughout DLC2, I have quite enjoyed using teleport on clefable and blissey in the high ladder, despite it being less common, especially on clefable. I think both of these mons present balanced applications of this pivoting option. Especially with clefable, you need to stay at a decently high HP to properly wall attackers, and teleport offers a skillful tradeoff here: call your opponent’s switch/weak u-turn and get a free pivot, but you risk taking a stronger hit that will hurt your defensive viability in the future. Because these guys lack regen, it is a lot more difficult to find an opportunity to heal, since you can’t just call an easy switch and immediately double out, you have to commit to staying in for a turn to use a healing move. Not to mention the rarer beneficiaries of teleport like porygon2 and xatu. Sure some of these guys can be viable but they aren’t broken. What makes teleport annoying on the slowtwins is that it essentially doubles as a healing move due to regenerator.

Additionally, (and this is a small amount of theorymonning here, apologies for that), I also want to reiterate the fact that, as many here have stated, if the slowtwins received a pivot move like flip turn instead of teleport, the same effect would likely occur. Maybe Zapdos might become a better switch in to threaten static on contact, and maybe you would see stuff like storm drain Gastrodon rise as a check, but at the same time the slowtwins would fare much better against heatran and taunt, and would gain the ability to pivot while holding an assault vest if they so chose to enhance their bulk. Also, while much has been made about the negative priority of teleport, given that the only things in OU naturally slower than the slowtwins is ferrothorn, in practice most of the time you use teleport it functionally moves at the time as flip turn would (one other exception to this is on trick room teams but if something is breaking teleport, it’s not trick room lol).

So yeah, I think it is clear that teleport is not in itself a big deal, and on a personal note pls don’t takeaway teleport on clef and blissey they are my teleporting children I beg you lol.

2) Regenerator: In my perfect pokemon world, I would nerf this ability to only heal ~20%, but obviously we can’t do that. I do suspect personally that regen as a whole is not a healthy thing for the metagame. Flexxen has an early post in this thread that convinced me on this, which I recommend reading. It is just so risk free to just pivot in a bulky mon, take a few hits, and find an opportunity to come in relatively risk free later and heal up again. However, while I dislike it, I would not call it broken in the slightest. Many defensive regen mons, while threatening with knock or status, are not terribly hard to switch into, and despite heavy duty boots, several mons (like Pex) opt not to run them or can be feasibly knocked off, at which point good hazard management and aggressive play can handle them. Torn-T is in its own category here, it kinda scares me honestly, but hurricane is the kind of move which is 90% accurate when your opponent has it and 50% accurate when you have it lmao, so I hesitate to call it a broken regen abuser.

3) Future Sight: I don’t really like future sight on principle since it has been buffed. Keeping a 120 BP move waiting in the wings for a combined assault is pretty crazy. That said, galarian slowking is a common but manageable future sight mon, and I have actually seen a cool amount of experimentation with this move, namely on latias and lele, plus there is that Godstall AV reuniclus regen future sight set which I think is pretty cool. These are rare but viable abusers of the move that can catch someone off guard and threaten a KO, but I don’t think they are broken. Obviously, the only problematic users of this attack are the slowtwins, due to the free pivot of teleport.

Ok, with that out of the way, let’s get into the slowtwins themselves. I have gone back and forth on this a lot, because as defensive pivots, I quite like the two of them. It’s future sight that pushes them over the edge. You can argue that what breaks the slowtwins is not future sight but the breakers who abuse it themselves. This is a reasonable stance, given that in the lower tiers, slowking did not present this issue when it was there. Obviously, to make future sight work you need the strong attackers which are mostly housed in OU. Prior to the magearna/cinderace bans, I also followed this line of thought, but because this has persisted past the cinderace ban especially, I think it might be good to do something about this combo in and of itself. OU just has too many powerful but balanced attackers, that inevitably something will abuse the support from the slowtwins, as Zamazenta is showing in this suspect.

Given that this is a unique situation, which I don’t think has much precedence in any previous gen OU (maybe some baton pass stuff, but I would argue that since gen 6, baton pass is just so widely abused by many passers and recipient attackers that it isn’t as comparable, since the only two unhealthy future sight setters are the slowtwins), I wouldn’t be opposed to a complex ban. I mean, sometimes you have very complex, systematic problems, which require complex solutions. If there were ever a time to use a complex ban it would be here (If a complex ban were to occur, I would favor a teleport+future sight ban as mentioned by IBZ earlier). But I totally understand and sympathize with the desire to avoid complex bans, so I accept that this will likely not happen.

In lieu of a complex ban, if one wanted to avoid collateral damage, so to speak, then I think future sight is the clear thing to go, like VTMagno says. If this were to happen, I would not object, but honestly, banning future sight like this is inconsistent with what the tier usually does in these cases. Outside of the very unique case of baton pass, it is difficult to think of decently distributed move that would be banworthy. Future sight is not broken in the general case, so justifying such a ban would come down to focusing on the consequences instead of the principles of the ban itself.

If the goal is to be consistent to tiering philosophy, then the most obvious solution, if you do think there is an issue with the regenfutureport combo, is to ban kanto slowbro and kanto slowking. They are the only pokemon with a unique combination of these three traits, which combines with their natural bulk to result in an uncompetitive and centralizing wallbreaking strategy, which is unhealthy for the tier. We are making so many excuses blaming so many facets of the game which are clearly fine in their own right, which we would not do for any other pokemon. Barely anyone would say that Urshifu-S should stay, just ban wicked blow, or that cinderace should stay, just ban libero. That is essentially what we are doing here when we say to ban teleport/future sight or regenerator, respectively. This is stupid (to be clear, this cyclical argument is, I don’t have any hard feelings towards you if you disagree with me, I think you are cool dear reader, regardless of your opinion here ). Why do this for the slowtwins?

I think the answer honestly is that we are so use to having them around and be fine. It took me a while to accept this, and when Jordy floated a slowbro ban for the first time back in November I thought he was crazy, but I realized eventually that my familiarity with these mons was biasing my judgement here. If you think differently about this, ask yourself this; if the slowtwins had not changed, but a new pair of mons were introduced in gen 8 with this set of attributes, do you genuinely believe we would be having this conversation? You may reasonably disagree, but I seriously doubt it. I think people would rightfully ask for a ban on the offending pokemon.

Now, to close here, I will say that truthfully, I am not personally sure if regenfutureport is broken. If there were to be a suspect today, provided zamazenta stays an uber, I would at this point say it is ok to remain in the tier. But it is on the verge of getting broken, and I could easily imagine it getting worse in a month or so. So my point with this post is less to convince anyone reading to support a ban on this combination in general, but to convince anyone reading that if you want to ban something here, you should ban the slowtwins.

Thanks for reading my novel masquerading as a forum post!

*Also, quick note on unaware clef since I saw something about it above, I love using it, but I don’t think it is broken at all, especially because clef isn’t terribly bulky honestly. Jolly life orb garchomp has about a 28% chance to 2ko max hp max phys def clefable with a boosting nature and leftovers with earthquake, and adamant life orb rillaboom can deal a hefty amount with grassy glide as well. If they are unaware, then either they choose to run leftovers, in which case hazards hurt clef a lot, or they run boots, in which case they miss out on the leftovers recovery. If an HO player sees a clefable on an opposing team, and plays smartly with the knowledge that the clef may be unaware, they can beat it without drastically altering their team, even if it is a hard mon to get through. It’s happened to me a lot (I mean, I’m not the best player in the world or anything but I don’t totally suck either so I don’t think it’s just my fault lololol).
 
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Just been reading a few posts about future sight or teleport being broken which, they are only broken on slowtwins. Is futuresight broken on slowking galar? Is teleport broken on clefable? The answer is: no. The moves teleport and future sight are broken (imo) on the same pokemon with regenerator and boots. Being able to check a lot of the metagame physically and defensively and have this massive role on denting holes in teams. I believe none of the moves shared before are broken because they only seem broken on slowtwins, which makes the point why not just ban slowtwins.
 
It's strange to me that anything other than the Slow twins would even be considered for a ban. Teleport Blissey and Clefable are healthy additions to the tier. They are balanced out because there's many times they're pressures to hard switch at the risk of receiving irreconcilable damage that they can't heal off next time they come due to their low speed. While the Slow twins are still slow, they have Regenerator to alleviate this issue. They can even drop Slack Off on many sets, something the former two could never do. If anything outside of these is broken it would probably be Regenerator, which is what every potentially broken part of the metagame evidenced in the last poll (Teleport, HDB, Toxapex, Tornadus-T) abuses in excess. I don't like the downstream impact of going that route though.
 
*Also, quick note on unaware clef since I saw something about it above, I love using it, but I don’t think it is broken at all, especially because clef isn’t terribly bulky honestly. Jolly life orb garchomp has about a 28% chance to 2ko max hp max phys def clefable with a boosting nature and leftovers with earthquake, and adamant life orb rillaboom can deal a hefty amount with grassy glide as well. If they are unaware, then either they choose to run leftovers, in which case hazards hurt clef a lot, or they run boots, in which case they miss out on the leftovers recovery. If an HO player sees a clefable on an opposing team, and plays smartly with the knowledge that the clef may be unaware, they can beat it without drastically altering their team, even if it is a hard mon to get through. It’s happened to me a lot (I mean, I’m not the best player in the world or anything but I don’t totally suck either so I don’t think it’s just my fault lololol).
I know this was an adendum to your main post, but I'm pretty sick of reading pages, and quite frankly walls and walls of text on Futureport. There are a lot of well made points, and you have made some very good ones in your post too, and I very much agree that Regenerator is extremely stupid. I would however like to see discussion on Unaware Clefable if anyone is willing, so I will address your points on Clefable rather than the Futureport content.

Both of the mons you mention, Life Orb Chomper and Adamant Rillaboom lose to Unaware Clef, as any user will sit spamming Softboiled, either stalling out the Terrain or watching you slowly kill yourself to Life Orb recoil. This is really the crux of the matter. If you don't crit Clef with your setup mon it will beat you. I've actually often lost to Unaware Clef even when I have crit it. This is why I was referring to the necessity of strong choiced users who can 2hko it or Trick it. I've played a lot of high ladder games where cores of Slowbro, Chansey, and Pex are just nigh unbreakable when played by someone competent. It's extremely difficult to break these with any form of setup sweeper.

Am I overselling it, am I just bad? Does nobody else have problems beating it consistently?
 
I know this was an adendum to your main post, but I'm pretty sick of reading pages, and quite frankly walls and walls of text on Futureport. There are a lot of well made points, and you have made some very good ones in your post too, and I very much agree that Regenerator is extremely stupid. I would however like to see discussion on Unaware Clefable if anyone is willing, so I will address your points on Clefable rather than the Futureport content.

Both of the mons you mention, Life Orb Chomper and Adamant Rillaboom lose to Unaware Clef, as any user will sit spamming Softboiled, either stalling out the Terrain or watching you slowly kill yourself to Life Orb recoil. This is really the crux of the matter. If you don't crit Clef with your setup mon it will beat you. I've actually often lost to Unaware Clef even when I have crit it. This is why I was referring to the necessity of strong choiced users who can 2hko it or Trick it. I've played a lot of high ladder games where cores of Slowbro, Chansey, and Pex are just nigh unbreakable when played by someone competent. It's extremely difficult to break these with any form of setup sweeper.

Am I overselling it, am I just bad? Does nobody else have problems beating it consistently?
I wouldn't say it's about being bad, it just seems to me that you are fixating a bit on using set up sweepers to 1v1 clefable. Taking a step back does it seem reasonable to you that a set up sweeper should be able to beat a mon specifically designed to stop set up sweepers using unboosted non super effective attacks? And even as you said, there are some set up sweepers that can break through such as bisharp and kartana.

Unaware clefable does have a lot of ways to be exploited. You also have to remember that every time it switches into your set up sweeper, if you pressed an attacking move, it has to press soft boiled after, as it's ability to stop set up sweepers diminishes rapidly if it isn't in almost pristine health, so you can use that to your advantage to get a good switch while clef is forced to heal up. What I'm recommending is that if you expect a clef switch in just press an attack and don't try to set up and just switch out, as pressing an attack is most often a low risk, medium reward move here.

Some more specific ways to deal with it are taunt, which removes 1/2 to 3/4 of its set with just one button. There is also heavy slam heatran that just, well, slams clefable with no counterplay if you trap it, and heatran is in general an amazing stallbreaker(cough cough here comes my shameless defensive dragonite with EQ on stall plug cough cough). Nidoking that you mentioned easily wins the 1v1 even if clefable gets a free CM up(and every time nido gets a free switch into something like a clefable there is a good chance you are losing a mon on stall, especially if it has superpower), and gengar can be kitted out to be a massive stallbreaker between tricking choice items and taunt.

Clef also can't take a FS well at all, it takes almost half from it, which can enable a lot of different threats to muscle past it, and a lot of choiced breakers can just straight break through.

unaware clef is definitely a good mon, but it has some very exploitable weaknesses that make it checkable. That said, I do certainly feel that it is possible by chance to make teams that are quite weak to it if you are not keeping it specifically in mind, as CM unaware is both a defensive measure and a win condition by itself.
 
Corumba said:
I know this was an adendum to your main post, but I'm pretty sick of reading pages, and quite frankly walls and walls of text on Futureport. There are a lot of well made points, and you have made some very good ones in your post too, and I very much agree that Regenerator is extremely stupid. I would however like to see discussion on Unaware Clefable if anyone is willing, so I will address your points on Clefable rather than the Futureport content.

Both of the mons you mention, Life Orb Chomper and Adamant Rillaboom lose to Unaware Clef, as any user will sit spamming Softboiled, either stalling out the Terrain or watching you slowly kill yourself to Life Orb recoil. This is really the crux of the matter. If you don't crit Clef with your setup mon it will beat you. I've actually often lost to Unaware Clef even when I have crit it. This is why I was referring to the necessity of strong choiced users who can 2hko it or Trick it. I've played a lot of high ladder games where cores of Slowbro, Chansey, and Pex are just nigh unbreakable when played by someone competent. It's extremely difficult to break these with any form of setup sweeper.

Am I overselling it, am I just bad? Does nobody else have problems beating it consistently?
I think there’s a reason that Clef is decline at the moment and most Clef are Magic Guard. Unaware Clef just isn’t that good. You need Wish/Softboiled, you need Heal Bell, and it can’t do anything offensively if you don’t run CM. That leaves you with one or maybe two slots for attacking moves, usually Moonblast/Flamethrower, which makes Unaware Clef easy to wall. Combine this with the fact that a lot of popular offensive mons can beat it (Rilla, Lele, Kyurem just to name three) and you can see why it isn’t particularly good. Taunt has obviously been mentioned, but Toxic can be another good way to beat it, especially with more defensive teams, since you can just stall it out of Heal Bells. Besides this, Heatran hard counters it and is everywhere right now, meaning Unaware Clef is matchup fishy at best.

Just to add my thoughts on the Slowtwins discussion: I don’t think they’re broken. Futureport+Regenerator is for sure good, but they aren’t nearly as omnipresent as things like Magearna or Spectrier were. They don’t quite have enough bulk to hardwall everything they want to, and Teleport giving you a turn to hit them means they’re often forced to hard switch to avoid being KOed by Rillaboom or Koko or something, so it’s quite easy to break up their rhythm and pressure your opponent if they get greedy with Futureport shenanigans.
 
I know this was an adendum to your main post, but I'm pretty sick of reading pages, and quite frankly walls and walls of text on Futureport. There are a lot of well made points, and you have made some very good ones in your post too, and I very much agree that Regenerator is extremely stupid. I would however like to see discussion on Unaware Clefable if anyone is willing, so I will address your points on Clefable rather than the Futureport content.

Both of the mons you mention, Life Orb Chomper and Adamant Rillaboom lose to Unaware Clef, as any user will sit spamming Softboiled, either stalling out the Terrain or watching you slowly kill yourself to Life Orb recoil. This is really the crux of the matter. If you don't crit Clef with your setup mon it will beat you. I've actually often lost to Unaware Clef even when I have crit it. This is why I was referring to the necessity of strong choiced users who can 2hko it or Trick it. I've played a lot of high ladder games where cores of Slowbro, Chansey, and Pex are just nigh unbreakable when played by someone competent. It's extremely difficult to break these with any form of setup sweeper.

Am I overselling it, am I just bad? Does nobody else have problems beating it consistently?
I get the point of this post but for me at least is incredibly weird, setup sweepers can't get past a mon designated to stop setup sweepers therefore its broken? Even though some setup sweepers can actually get past it and it is in general a mon with exploitable weaknesses as it can be easily overwhelmed, it is forced to constantly heal or it will no longer be able to check the things it is supposed to beat and that it also gives free switches to metagame staples like Heatran and Toxapex. Yeah definetively not broken.

Also to drop my two cents on the futureport discussion, imo if something were to be banned it should be the slowtwins as they are the only ones with the combination of regen, Fsight and teleport. Banning one of the moves would needlessly cripple the viability of some mons and lower tiers for no reason but to preserve the slowtwins, slowking-g and reuniclus are fine with regenerator and future sight, mew and alakazam are fine with future sight and teleport, and hell even slowpoke is fine with regenerator, teleport and F sight. If the moves were truly a problem then we should be seeing slowpoke doing things in OU like we've seen LC mons do in OU when they have acces to a broken ability/move (see trapinch)
 
Who said Unaware Clefable was broken? I don't necessarily think it is. I was simply raising points that it's incredibly problematic to beat, and strikes me as uncompetitive. I wanted to hear some discussion to come to a conclusion. The lack of support for my position so far strikes me that I'm in the minority however.

Unaware Clefable isn't in decline either, I face it very commonly, and I don't see why the set needs Wish. glava222 did a good job at addressing some of my points. You are certainly right that Taunt stops it completely, I have no argument there. No good player is allowing Clef to come in on a Future Sight though, and similarly no good player is leaving Clef in against any Heatran. Once the Heatran is eliminated, Clef often wins. If only it was so simple to just not lose your Heatran against mega stall teams... and to not lose your Steel types to Helmet chip + hazards until such a point as they can no longer hold Clef back.

So long as Clefable exists, a huge number of setup sweepers lose a lot of viability due to the opportunity cost of being a passenger against Unaware Clefable teams. It's a similar scenario to Pinkacross' Rillaboom argument, where the opportunity cost of using a setup sweeper that gets KOed by Grassy Glide is also too high, and so not worth a slot. Pulling off a well timed setup sweep has never been more difficult than it is now, and that's a real shame.
 
Sorry Corumba, I also have felt quite annoyed at unaware walls myself so I understand your frustration, and since it wasn't my main focus in the post there, my response about clef was not as thorough as it ought to have been.

The point of bringing up garchomp and rilla was not to point out that they would beat clef in the 1-v-1, but to show that in practice, unaware clef is often more of a check than a true counter. What I mean here is that it's actually somewhat risky to swap unaware clef into a strong set up sweeper directly. Obviously if they boost on the switch, clef is safe, but if you switch in on a life orb-boosted attack directly, it's gonna sting, especially if there are rocks/spikes up. Beyond this, your point about softboiled stalling is valid, as an unaware clef user I have done it many a time myself lol, but when you do this continuously over and over, the chance of a crit often becomes non-negligible, and if not a crit, often other rarer move sideffects, things like stat drops (which do affect unaware pokemon) and rare burn/para/freeze chances start to build. I mean clef runs heal bell a lot, but you only get 8 of them. if you keep your set up sweepers in the wings, it is feasible, if time consuming, to force an opponent to run out of heal bells with a consistent status spreader, many of whom can switch into clef. When I have played against strong HO players with unaware clef, I have seen many examples where even if they don't have an outright counter, they will essentially sac a strong wallbreaker like garchomp to get clef down to ~50%, and then they can manage to apply enough offensive pressure make it quite difficult for it to get a free switch in to heal, since it lacks regen and is punished by hazards. And that is to say nothing of steel set-up sweepers like scizor, bisharp, and the rarer SD iron head aegislash that outright beat it.

One thing I will sympathize with, and offer a solution to, is your complaint about bulky Clef/Slowtwin/Blissey/Metal Bird/Toxapex teams. Are these a pain? Absolutely. Let me share some non-choice mons that I have used or have seen others use on the high ladder to break through stall teams, including unaware clef. My disclaimer for all of these mons is that I do not think that I am giving you the overall best set to use, and a couple of these mons themselves are on the fringes of general viability, but if you have 5 mons on a team that synergize well, and you really need to murder stall, you can try these out in your last slot.

:Victini:
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Glaciate/Toxic/Energy Ball/Grass Knot
- Power-Up Punch

This one is pretty fun, I used it to get reqs and break into the top 50 in this test (with boots and glaciate), but it can be a little hard to use and kind of daunting because you have so many options for your moves. I am gonna talk about this one the most because it is the most versatile, so you can customize a lot to suit your needs. If you want to kill defensive cores run expert belt (also lets you bluff jolly band on a supereff hit and adamant scarf on a neutral hit), but I prefer Boots in general right now, since it gives you more health versus Zamazenta. Speed is just to outspeed stuff like max speed Nidoking, you can run jolly if you want to outspeed Urshifu (aqua jet deals a lot but won’t kill) and timid kyurem, I like the power though. You can usually power up punch on a switch to something like toxapex or slowbro. At +1, adamant expert belt victini does 82-97% to pex with bolt strike, and 79.6-94.4% to slowbro. If they want to switch around, once you get to +1 stuff like hippowdon gets cleanly 2ko by v-create. For the record, unaware clef gets two shotted by unboosted v-create, and it’s moonblast won’t do much to you because unaware prevents your sp def drops from v-create from taking effect.

The third slot is a flex slot for a special move or status. I like having a grass move here for the rare but still present gastrodon/quagsire stall on the ladder, not to mention it can be a decent move to midground slowbro just because bolt strike and vcreate pp can become a problem in a longer game. Energy ball is better in general, grass knot is to hit phys def hippowdon the hardest. Glaciate isn’t useful for stall, but you can use it to hit lando, garchomp, or dragapult on the switch and then outspeed them next turn (remember that if it is scarf lando and you are adamant, even after a speed drop they will outspeed you though). Toxic another good option and can be useful to weaken a lot of would be switch-ins, as can will-o-wisp, but since stall runs clerics usually it may not be optimal for that matchup.

Some people like scorching sands, but it doesn’t do that much to sp def heatran, and if you power up punch on the switch to tran, you outspeed and bolt strike will 2KO from there (you live one earth power at full always). You benefit a lot with wish support or slow pivots to keep victini healthy after stomaching a hit or rocky helmet and bring him in safely, and a cleric to cure status from contact can be nice. Be wary of helmet pex with baneful bunker though, I think Ruft screwed me over with his stall team when I played him in a 200+ turn game, setting my req process back like 10 million games >~>

:Conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 76 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch/Drain Punch
- Close Combat/Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

Prior to the zama test I got a fresh alt to the top 150 on the ladder, with ~81% gxe solely using a team with this mon (if you want the full team check out nyembyuy's post in the RMT forums, it got overlooked but I think it is pretty cool, I modified his evs on Dragapult and Conk a bit but otherwise it's the same, that said I don't recommend it anymore without modification unless Zama stays uber since it gets crushed by zama hard lol), and I've used it on a couple other teams as well.
If you just want to take on walls, drop mach punch, but in the general matchup I don’t recommend it. Even with drain punch, you’re gonna run light on HP fast with this thing so here I highly recommend wish support. Assuming you are burned, facade hits like a truck (98% chance to 2KO max phys def Pex with black sludge if it switches in on Rocks, and a 38% chance to 2KO slowbro by itself, without resorting to Knock Off). CC 2KOs max def tangrowth always (97% chance if it has leftovers), and Knock off into CC always deals 91% minimum to max phys def corviknight (with the standard 168 def spread it is 97.9% minimum, I run enough speed to outrun neutral uninvested corv but watchout for brave bird obviously, even before you get a defense drop). This guy is super volatile so I understand why he isn’t an OU staple lol but bring this in on stall at the right time and it can smash holes.

:Nidoking:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam
- Superpower/Taunt

Either just before or just after the mag/ace ban I got 2000+ elo with this set (using flamethrower and superpower). Generally, flamethrower is better in the third slot, but thunderbolt is good for slowking while still hitting birds (Although you lose a neutral move to hit incoming Lando), ice beam hits grounds and zapdos but is very rarely useful vs stall except if its hippo stall. Superpower deals 57.8% min to blissey, and 42.9% min to eviolite chansey, so I recommend bluffing that you don’t have it unless you are sure you are gonna get the kill, people tend to play recklessly with HP on these fat blobs when you hold it back long enough. Hasy Nature is +speed, -def, I prefer that because you want to stomach at least one from slowtwins (and galar slowking) and clef, and I have switched into stuff like Fini moonblast and koko dazzling gleam. Running Mild nature (+sp att, minus def) is viable but I don't generally recommend it unless you really want to dedicate to killing defense with this guy. You can switch freely into clefable lacking knock off (it really sucks to lose orb though so scout for it first, and with toxapex I also recommend scouting it's spread and only using earth power on it when you have a good chance to KO because you don't want to lose orb or get burned when you need superpower). Worth noting that sp def gastrodon and sp def hippowdon (if you don't have ice beam) wall this and are sometimes seen on stall, which is why taunt can be viable over superpower, but often times with a mon as frail as nidoking, if they attack on your taunt it can be a pain, so I usually opt for the attacking move or I will switch out.

:Rillaboom:
Rillaboom @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Superpower
- Grassy Glide
- Taunt

Haven't used this one much myself, but I stole this after Storm Zone beat me with it high in the ladder lol and even with just a few games it has worked well, absolutely monstrous set, I think this one is best suited to hyper offense. You need a bit of prediction here, especially versus corv since he always kills with brave bird after a superpower def drop, but at +2 you deal 68-80% to the standard corv spread, and at +4 you always kill it. Taunt in general is very underexplored in the meta, as okispokis pointed out earlier in the thread. You can choose to either sacrifice this guy in the early game to break big holes or keep it in the back as a grassy glide sweeper like with standard SD rilla once your opponent's defensive mons are weakened a little.

:Alakazam:
Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Encore/Taunt/Thunder Wave

I put this last because out of these 5 I am the least sure about this guy, although I have lost to this unexpectedly before. Alakazam is not super viable in this meta but he is a strong stallbreaker. Having to rely on Focus blast sucks, you can swap for dazzling gleam or maybe shadow ball, but against stall but you want to hit the metal birds really hard. At +2 psyshock always 2KOs kanto slowking (EDIT: earlier I had a typo implying +2 psyshock would one shot slowking, that's not true obviously lol), unless it is AV(EDIT2:AV doesn't matter for psyshock lol I'm an idiot). Encore is my best recommendation to beat stall. Catching a corv on a roost is absurd, you basically get a free +2, and for Clef you can encore a calm mind and then spam psyshock. Taunt and T-wave have applications too though. Try this with psychic terrain like in gen 7 to really pump up the body count (specs lele is also a stall murderer but since it is choiced I am not listing it here, and I didn't post taunt magma storm heatran because everyone is aware of that already).

Hopefully this helps you with stall issues, and good luck.
 
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In regards to clefable, it isnt broken. So much so it isnt even it's best ability most of the time. Clefable although now ignoring boosts, is prone to status. And if it's running heal bell that takes up a move slot, further increasing counterplay. There are tons of strong breakers and steels with the likes of tran and magnezone. Unaware clef should never be an issue unless you have nothing to break fat mons, which isnt clefs problem, that's a problem with a team.
 
I disagree with this point, as I feel that FuturePort is most abusable on bulky offense structures, particularly with the duo of Slowking and Urshifu.

We have already established what the Slowtwins do in OU - click Future Sight, then teleport out to bring in a breaker safely and regenerate health back. While this strategy has been seen in previous generations with the "slow u-turn" concept, Teleport takes this further, as even the slowest Pokemon cannot attempt to punish this switch with a status ailment, knock off, or strong attack onto the breaker. Slowking is a great partner for Urshifu, who can tank strong special hits that threaten the bear, and is the most popular Slowtwin variant in OU as a result.

Once the breaker is actually in, it is very difficult for the opponent to position themselves favorably. One strategy I have seen employed to counteract Future Sight is with Protect - while FS does hit through protect, bulky Psychic resists and Dark types take little to no damage from the move, and Protect allows you to avoid taking damage from the breaker's attack. This is useful when paired with a defensive pivot like Toxapex, who does not take FS well but can switch in and check most of the physical metagame with Rocky Helmet the following turn.

Slowking + Urshifu nullifies this, as Unseen Fist causes contact moves to hit through Protect, forcing the target to always take an attack from (usually Choice Banded) Urshifu in addition to a 120 BP Future Sight. This has led to the increased centralization of the defensive metagame towards the Slowtwins themselves, as the only viable Pokemon that can realistically stomach this combination are Slowbro, physically defensive Slowking, and physically defensive Dragonite with Multiscale intact. When you factor in how hard it is to actually punish this sequence of plays (good luck actually Knocking Off Slowking's boots against a competent player), it is unsurprising to me that people are looking at Teleport as the issue.
what part of my statement do you disagree with, I agree that’s it’s certainly abused. It’s certainly hard to play around for sure, I was stating that from a defensive standpoint, teleport alone is a very easy way to re position yourself. On the offensive, fs teleport into shifu is insane. If you’re smart enough to knock the helmets first there’s not a lot that can take a fs and 2 cc or ss
 
The simplest and most effective thing to do is to keep it the way it is without banning fs/teleport/regenerator/slowtwins, just keep the op breakers banned (and perhaps ban zamazenta too).

The metagame post cinderace/magearna ban was really fun, plus slowking is finally viable in ou, if you ban future sight or teleport the slowtwins will be useless again and I don't want to see toxapex as the premier OU's wall for another generation (will be the time that I stop playing showdown definitely and as me many others).
 
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The simplest and most effective thing to do is to keep it the way it is without banning fs/teleport/regenerator/slowtwins, just keep the op breakers banned (and perhaps ban zamazenta too).

The metagame post cinderace/magearna ban was really fun, plus slowking is finally viable in ou, if you ban future sight or teleport the slowtwins will be useless again and I don't want to see toxapex as the premier OU's wall for another generation (will be the time that I stop playing showdown definitely and as me many others).
Slowking and Slowbro are still bulky regenerators who spam Scald on their switchins. Not really that different from Toxapex.
Anyway, Smogon is in the business of preserving a healthy meta, not necessarily a diverse meta or a meta filled with Pokemon you like.
 
I think the single most pressing issue in the meta rn is Slowking and Slowbro. The sheer degeneracy of teams that stack kanto bro + galar king can't be overstated enough. Can you beat them? Sure, but they severely limit builds. I remember old meme stall teams with Chansey + Blissey but this is way worse. These mons encourage completely brainless, low risk linear play that makes games take an eternity.
 
I posted a topic about potentially banning King’s Rock in Policy Review as a topic that pertains to various generations, including SS. If anyone has thoughts about this in the SS metagame in particular, we can discuss the topic here. The main focus will be on that thread of course, but it’s always good to engage in community discussions nevertheless.
Can we throw weather evasion in there too? Let's just get rid of all the shenanigans in one shot
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
The slowtwins aren't exactly that much of an issue. If we ban them, chances are you suddenly finding yourself putting Toxapex and Scizor every single team just so you can have a switch in to Tapu Lele when regular Slowking could have saved you a slot. What I'm saying is the slow twins are basically a necessary evil to at least make the monsters in the tier somewhat manageable. The problem is teleport and future sight. Teleport is just brainless that actually rewards you for being passive or lagging behind while future sight just adds a new level of irritation. Although Slowbro does have a massive issue rn in the form of Rillaboom. I still think that slowtwins are okay but the teleport and future sight is just plain ridiculous. Teleport might not be broken but it sure as hell doesn't encourage you to use your brain, at least when compared to previous generations

On the topic of luck based stuff, can we please just get rid of sand veil. I know that weather teams, and not just sand, aren't that common but for the love of Satan, Garchomp getting a lucky dodge under sand is just devastating. This ability just adds unnecessary rng to a game that is already filled with unnecessary rng
 

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