Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I wanted to briefly weigh in on the King's Rock topic of discussion. Although I am typically more of a preservationist when it comes to bans and eliminating intended game elements, I have thought for a while now that King's Rock should be removed from the OU tier.

To put it simply, King's Rock is too effective at doing its job in the context of its most frequent application in SS OU. Skill Link + King's Rock is not necessarily a new phenomenon novel to Gen 8, but this strategy alone has grown from an inconsistent gimmick to a legitimate, and arguably reasonably consistent option for hyper offensive teams. There is almost always an opportunity cost involved in running RNG based items like Quick Claw, Brightpowder or King's Rock, due to the average holder of the item almost always preferring something better, coupled with the low chance that the item will work to begin with. Skill Link Cloyster + King's Rock circumvents both of these elements. After a Shell Smash boost, Cloyster typically only needs this gimmick to activate about ~twice consecutively to break through its would-be checks in something like Skarmory or Toxapex. This sets it apart from something like Iron Head Jirachi trying to flinch down a Zapdos or Heatran, which would take many turns of consecutive activation and also exposes it to Rocky Helmet/residual contact damage in the process. Having tested it personally in over two dozen games recently, this ability+item combination forces the literal definition of 50/50 turns when it is employed, and punishes players for doing everything right except for winning a coin flip. This is uncompetitive and I struggle to see this as anything less.

While there will be some who argue that all RNG-inducing items and strategies should be removed from competitive play, I am not ready to go that far yet. Strictly on the issue of King's Rock, I would support its removal.
 

Martin

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Hello, I've been putting off posting about this for a few months, but I finally have some time in my life and feel now is a good time to bring this up. You probably know which Pokemon this post is going to be about already if you've talked to me in the OU discord at any point over the past four months or so, and I think action needs to be taken on it regardless of whether Zamazenta gets unbanned.


:ss/dragapult:
I think Dragapult is broken and overbearing, and I think it makes trying to build and play this format a complete nightmare. This is the single biggest problem in the format right now in my opinion, and I think that removing it would help to free up building quite a lot for both offensive and balanced teams.

To be blunt, I do not think we have adequate counterplay to Dragapult. Ghost resists are extremely rare and most viable options do not reliably switch in on Draco Meteor, and out of what's left, not one has a means of punishing it for using U-turn (not to mention every single one is an exploitable POS that can be very easily turned into dead weight). It is so goddamn fast that you also can't reliably punish it short of using Zeraora or making a heavy commitment either at builder level or in-game, and its ability to just U-turn out of all of its responses with exactly zero repercussions makes the inadequacy of available offensive counterplay that much more apparent. It is next to impossible to make progress versus a Dragapult player because there is no reliable way to force it to take damage short of entry hazards, which conveniently get shut down by its Boots set. (No viable Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, or Rough Skin users switch into Dragapult.) Every Pokemon that can switch into it short of SpD Toxapex is heavily exploitable when down on tempo, and any widely viable neutral defensive responses stop working once statused because of the nonsense that is Hex. In terms of ghost resistant responses: Tyranitar takes a chunk from U-turn, which means it can only switch in so many times when combined with its lack of reliable recovery; Mandibuzz hates being down on tempo and also stops being a good Pokemon the moment it gets knocked off, which is shockingly easy if you have something like Rillaboom/Kartana (both click it for free/force Mandi in regularly, and let's be real: there isn't much consistent defensive counterplay to Kart anyway) or Ferrothorn (can very easily pressure it to come in and use Defog); Blissey is kinda shit either way but it stalemates Dragapult at best and arguably hates being down on tempo more than anything else in the game.

One of the biggest complaints I have seen about SS OU is just that there are so few viable ways to enforce progress, and Dragapult is one of the biggest offenders in this regard. Sure, it can't heal off damage with Regenerator like the Slowtwins, Tornadus-T, or Toxapex can, but (at the risk of repeating myself) it makes up for this with a near-unique ability to completely avoid taking direct damage under any circumstances beyond its players control that, when combined with there being next to no scenario where it would actually have its Boots knocked off in the hands of a competent player, makes it borderline impossible to pressure and leaves it in a state of having no real competitive flaws—anything that comes close to constituting one can be circumvented without making a single compromise either at builder level or gameplay level all while being dirt easy to use. Its offensive typing doesn't have any gaping holes like with Zeraora, which can similarly avoid ever taking any damage once Volt Switch sponges have been Toxic'd and/or had their items knocked off, and its team matchup spread is among the most positively polarising in the game (it's competent in basically every matchup and has completely dominating positive matchups, especially versus offence) and is arguably the most constrictive offensive threat in the format, with the only really debatable competition coming from Pokemon like Garchomp, Kartana, Shifu-R, Lele, and Kyurem, which (aside from maybe Kartana) all have more readily-exploitable flaws such as… not outpacing the whole unboosted metagame.

====================

I'll leave this post here, but for what it's worth I think this metagame is held together by selotape and, while I won't go into more detail as this isn't the right thread for it, I think Zamazenta does nothing but exacerbate that issue. I won't go into more detail now because I can't be arsed and don't want to distract from the elephant in the room above, but I think we need to seriously take a look at the metagame we have and ask ourselves whether this power level is ideal and whether we are happy to continue playing a metagame that, while stable, I don't think is in a healthy state. The key presences that I, personally, think we need to step back and ask serious questions about are as follows:
  • Dragapult (obviously)
  • Toxapex
  • Kartana
This list is not an exhaustive list of metagame threats, and I realise that their removal will shift the power level that feels overbearing, but I think that at the very least these three warp the metagame's power level upwards to an unhealthy degree. I don't personally have any issue with the Slowtwins and think they are a product of their surroundings rather than the reverse, but at the very least I think it is a good discussion to have.
 
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Hello, I've been putting off posting about this for a few months, but I finally have some time in my life and feel now is a good time to bring this up. You probably know which Pokemon this post is going to be about already if you've talked to me in the OU discord at any point over the past four months or so, and I think action needs to be taken on it regardless of whether Zamazenta gets unbanned.


:ss/dragapult:
I think Dragapult is broken and overbearing, and I think it makes trying to build and play this format a complete nightmare. This is the single biggest problem in the format right now in my opinion, and I think that removing it would help to free up building quite a lot for both offensive and balanced teams.

To be blunt, I do not think we have adequate counterplay to Dragapult. Ghost resists are extremely rare and most viable options do not reliably switch in on Draco Meteor, and out of what's left, not one has a means of punishing it for using U-turn (not to mention every single one is an exploitable POS that can be very easily turned into dead weight). It is so goddamn fast that you also can't reliably punish it short of using Zeraora or making a heavy commitment either at builder level or in-game, and its ability to just U-turn out of all of its responses with exactly zero repercussions makes the inadequacy of available offensive counterplay that much more apparent. It is next to impossible to make progress versus a Dragapult player because there is no reliable way to force it to take damage short of entry hazards, which conveniently get shut down by its Boots set. (No viable Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, or Rough Skin users switch into Dragapult.) Every Pokemon that can switch into it short of SpD Toxapex is heavily exploitable when down on tempo, and any widely viable neutral defensive responses stop working once statused because of the nonsense that is Hex. In terms of ghost resistant responses: Tyranitar takes a chunk from U-turn, which means it can only switch in so many times when combined with its lack of reliable recovery; Mandibuzz hates being down on tempo and also stops being a good Pokemon the moment it gets knocked off, which is shockingly easy if you have something like Rillaboom/Kartana (both click it for free/force Mandi in regularly, and let's be real: there isn't much consistent defensive counterplay to Kart anyway) or Ferrothorn (can very easily pressure it to come in and use Defog); Blissey is kinda shit either way but it stalemates Dragapult at best and arguably hates being down on tempo more than anything else in the game.

One of the biggest complaints I have seen about SS OU is just that there are so few viable ways to enforce progress, and Dragapult is one of the biggest offenders in this regard. Sure, it can't heal off damage with Regenerator like the Slowtwins, Tornadus-T, or Toxapex can, but (at the risk of repeating myself) it makes up for this with a near-unique ability to completely avoid taking direct damage under any circumstances beyond its players control that, when combined with there being next to no scenario where it would actually have its Boots knocked off in the hands of a competent player, makes it borderline impossible to pressure and leaves it in a state of having no real competitive flaws—anything that comes close to constituting one can be circumvented without making a single compromise either at builder level or gameplay level all while being dirt easy to use. Its offensive typing doesn't have any gaping holes like with Zeraora, which can similarly avoid ever taking any damage once Volt Switch sponges have been Toxic'd and/or had their items knocked off, and its team matchup spread is among the most positively polarising in the game (it's competent in basically every matchup and has completely dominating positive matchups, especially versus offence) and is arguably the most constrictive offensive threat in the format, with the only really debatable competition coming from Pokemon like Garchomp, Kartana, Shifu-R, Lele, and Kyurem, which (aside from maybe Kartana) all have more readily-exploitable flaws such as… not outpacing the whole unboosted metagame.

====================

I'll leave this post here, but for what it's worth I think this metagame is held together by selotape and, while I won't go into more detail as this isn't the right thread for it, I think Zamazenta does nothing but exacerbate that issue. I won't go into more detail now because I can't be arsed and don't want to distract from the elephant in the room above, but I think we need to seriously take a look at the metagame we have and ask ourselves whether this power level is ideal and whether we are happy to continue playing a metagame that, while stable, I don't think is in a healthy state. The key presences that I, personally, think we need to step back and ask serious questions about are as follows:
  • Dragapult (obviously)
  • Toxapex
  • Kartana
This list is not an exhaustive list of metagame threats, and I realise that their removal will shift the power level that feels overbearing, but I think that at the very least these three warp the metagame's power level upwards to an unhealthy degree. I don't personally have any issue with the Slowtwins and think they are a product of their surroundings rather than the reverse, but at the very least I think it is a good discussion to have.
You make a well thought out argument. On one hand, every meta going back forever has a best offensive mon. It's undoubtedly Dragapult this gen and it really can do anything. There are games when I just lose something every time specs Dragapult comes in and I have to go rebuild. I think there are certain aspects of Dragapult that are very healthy - having a strong and fast Infiltrator is really a net positive for the tier imo. On the other hand, SpD Heatran isn't really much of a long term check and SpD Clef is always one special defense drop away from your whole team collapsing. Physical sets are also scary and prey on meta trends and while you can kind of guess what they are running based on how weak their team is to Volcorona, it's always a toss up.
 

Finchinator

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I do not view Dragapult as currently broken, but the Specs variant has limited offensive counterplay and it may grow even thinner if Zamazenta-Crowned is unbanned. It may be a Pokemon to keep on our radar as the tier continues to evolve, but I do not currently view it as suspect worthy. That is absolutely subject to change though.

Also, physical sets are poor, in my opinion.
 
I do not view Dragapult as currently broken, but the Specs variant has limited offensive counterplay and it may grow even thinner if Zamazenta-Crowned is unbanned. It may be a Pokemon to keep on our radar as the tier continues to evolve, but I do not currently view it as suspect worthy. That is absolutely subject to change though.

Also, physical sets are poor, in my opinion.
Can I ask why exactly you think pult isn't 'suspect worthy'? As you said specs has limited offensive counterplay. And Martin quite clearly outlined in his post that pult's defensive counterplay is limited as well. And most of the stuff that is reliable e.g. mandibuzz is easily exploited with team support.

I mean, you read the post and he makes a lot of valid points imo, so like, what exactly makes you disagree? And if you don't disagree, how is what Martin stated not suspect worthy?
 
I strongly agree that King's Rock should be banned. It makes the game less competitive, since it's pure RNG, and has no real counterplay, especially for slow teams that cannot hope to outspeed the opposing King's Rock user. For example, here's a replay of me using it against stall. I turned my brain off and hoped for good RNG, and eventually I got it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1327609999-a44pc6qn5yjehikrb20518s4m6lu83vpw
 
I agree that king's rock should be banned. As mentioned elsewhere (in this thread and the other one), other similar RNG-based aspects with similar preventions of opponent action, such as Sand Veil, Bright Powder, and Lax Incense (and similar) deserve a good ban as well. Serene Grace is a bit trickier, but I would be ok with both keeping and removing it. My main concern with that is that pokemon with only Serene Grace as possible abilities (as of present, Meloetta, Jirachi, and Shaymin-Sky) would be collateral, which.. yeah. Not good. Probably just based on that, Serene Grace shouldn't be banned.
 
Feeling pretty mixed on banning King's Rock, honestly. I agree that the item is uncompetitive in nature, but the issue is that I find it a bit inconsistent to ban King's Rock while keeping moves that can cause flinch, such as Rock Slide and Iron Head, still in the game. Just to go over some math, King's Rock grants each hit of Cloyster's attacks a 10% chance to flinch. In total, this gives Cloyster roughly a 41% chance to cause the opposing mon to flinch. What exactly warrants a 41% chance to cause the opposing mon to flinch to be banned, but a 30% chance to do the same to be left alone? Just to give a comparable situation, say instead of Cloyster, we are looking at Rock Slide Barbaracle. When faced against common checks, both Cloyster and Barbaracle would need to get a flinch in order to muscle their way through. Is a 41% chance to overbearing, but a 30% chance is just fine? Let us also consider the scenarios where 2 consecutive flinches would be required to muscle their way through even sturdier walls. Cloyster, relying on a 41% chance to flinch per turn, would have a ~17% chance to achieve two consecutive flinches. To compare, Rock Slide Barbaracle, relying on a 30% chance to flinch per turn, would have a 9% chance to do the same. Overall, this is a difference of 8%, and it is difficult for me to consider Skill Link + King's Rock too uncompetitive for the tier when there are still other moves and items that can be deemed as uncompetitive. Essentially, where does one draw the line? I am of the opinion that it would make more sense to address RNG-reliant items, moves, and strategies collectively. Banning King's Rock by itself and then potentially looking at other related issues just seems inefficient and even a tad arbitrary to me.

Edit: In hindsight, using Barbaracle as a comparison probably isn't the best way to get my point across, but there are still a plethora of other, more relevant examples that could be used as comparisons. Just to give one that makes more sense in the context of OU, Swords Dance Bisharp is able to fish for flinches with Iron Head against common switch-ins hoping to check Bisharp, such as Hippowdon, Tangrowth, and Mandibuzz, beating them in the process.
 
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Feeling pretty mixed on banning King's Rock, honestly. I agree that the item is uncompetitive in nature, but the issue is that I find it a bit inconsistent to ban King's Rock while keeping moves that can cause flinch, such as Rock Slide and Iron Head, still in the game. Just to go over some math, King's Rock grants each hit of Cloyster's attacks a 10% chance to flinch. In total, this gives Cloyster roughly a 41% chance to cause the opposing mon to flinch. What exactly warrants a 41% chance to cause the opposing mon to flinch to be banned, but a 30% chance to do the same to be left alone? Just to give a comparable situation, say instead of Cloyster, we are looking at Rock Slide Barbaracle. When faced against common checks, both Cloyster and Barbaracle would need to get a flinch in order to muscle their way through. Is a 41% chance to overbearing, but a 30% chance is just fine? Let us also consider the scenarios where 2 consecutive flinches would be required to muscle their way through even sturdier walls. Cloyster, relying on a 41% chance to flinch per turn, would have a ~17% chance to achieve two consecutive flinches. To compare, Rock Slide Barbaracle, relying on a 30% chance to flinch per turn, would have a 9% chance to do the same. Overall, this is a difference of 8%, and it is difficult for me to consider Skill Link + King's Rock too uncompetitive for the tier when there are still other moves and items that can be deemed as uncompetitive. Essentially, where does one draw the line? I am of the opinion that it would make more sense to address RNG-reliant items, moves, and strategies collectively. Banning King's Rock by itself and then potentially looking at other related issues just seems inefficient and even a tad arbitrary to me.
I agree to some extent, although 11% is still a nominal increase in flinch chance, which should be noted. You fail to mention, also, that barbaracle has a lot less bulk, making it easier to take out, has a lot worse typing, and that rock slide is a lot less powerful than icicle spear. Even so, I think you make a valid argument that it should be more consistent. No one likes to get flinch haxed, and taking away one item and not others such as serene grace or rock slide is annoying and inconsistent.
 

Any real defense of Kings Rock has to use a slippery slope fallacy to bring up Togekiss and Jirachi and other softer hax. Any line that is drawn is ultimately arbitrary, such is tiering. Why is the speed limit 65 and not 66? If at a later date much of the player base hates those elements too, they can be acted upon. You know bullshit when you see it - Kings Rock is peak bullshit. It's more consistent than clicking a single double team which is also banned. This is the most bipartisan issue in Smogon history, everyone hates kings rock.
 

Finchinator

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Can I ask why exactly you think pult isn't 'suspect worthy'? As you said specs has limited offensive counterplay. And Martin quite clearly outlined in his post that pult's defensive counterplay is limited as well. And most of the stuff that is reliable e.g. mandibuzz is easily exploited with team support.
Because while it has limited counterplay, it is not limited to an unreasonable extent. A lot of balanced Pokemon have limited counterplay and function as strong Pokemon, but still are not banworthy.

Blissey, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Tyranitar, SDef Clefable, SDef Heatran, and SDef Hippowdon are all there defensively. This is more than enough and I think we can all agree on that.

As for offensive counterplay, hyper offense has seen an uptick in Scarf Tapu Fini cores, Dark types with super effective priority, Zeraora, and even Moltres-Galar. In addition to this, many well-built teams are at worst forcing trade with Dragapult, having something to take advantage of any move it locks into and forcing it to be prediction reliant. This is also how hyper offense checks Tapu Koko once the Ground type (oftentimes lead LandoT) is weakened or how they check a number of other common Pokemon (Weavile, Scarf Landorus-T, accurate Tornadus-T (barring screens Tapu Koko with an Electric attack), Kartana, Scarf Tapu Lele, etc.) in the metagame. This archetype functions not off of having durable counterplay, but rather on having strong follow-ups and punishing the opponent. Dragapult hardly stands out in this context ever since the rise of multiple Dark types in usage, but perhaps this would be something to reassess if Zamazenta-Crowned remained OU.

Martin brings up some fine points, but I disagree with his claims about the lack of counterplay in practice and his ultimate conclusion.
 
I think the single most pressing issue in the meta rn is Slowking and Slowbro. The sheer degeneracy of teams that stack kanto bro + galar king can't be overstated enough. Can you beat them? Sure, but they severely limit builds. I remember old meme stall teams with Chansey + Blissey but this is way worse. These mons encourage completely brainless, low risk linear play that makes games take an eternity.
If games with slowtwins take an eternity, a game with toxapex (with teleport or future sight banned) will take at least 2 eternities again.
The slowtwins with future sight and teleport are a necessary evil, you can pressure toxapex way easier, remove future sight or teleport and toxapex will skyrocket in usage again (I firmly believe that no one wants a toxapex running rampant again in a meta without z-moves and mega).
People complaining that teleport and future sight encourage brainless meta, but in the previuos generations what skill were involved in clicking stealth rock or spikes in 99% of the matches and as soon as possible? I tell you: almost 0.

I firmly believe that GF buffed future sight and telepoet primarily for the toxapex's problem, they recognized that a bulky water with huge defenses from both sides (slowtwins have only one high defense respectively), regenerator, haze, baneful banker, knock off, toxic spikes etc. was a mistake in the first place especially in a meta without z-moves or mega (this is just my guess of course).

The meta before future sight and teleport slowtwins was really unfun and stale, almost one third of the matches lasted more than 120 turns and most of the teams had a toxapex, how can you say that slowtwins encourage endless battle? The matches at the moment are rather shorter than pre fs+teleport matches, because in the previous Sw/Sh metas simply there was not a way to properly punish toxapex.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
What does everyone think about this metal fuck?

:sm/magnezone:


Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy? I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays. I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept. It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle. Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned
 

Windingsss

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What does everyone think about this metal fuck?

:sm/magnezone:


Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy? I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays. I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept. It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle. Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned
Kinda short post but i need to say some stuff here, because Magnezone is not even close to being unhealthy like some stuff we've had (Vish, Spectrier, Shifu)

I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays.
So, starting right here. As you said, Magnezone is just useless against archetypes like HO or Screens which are common right now, so it has a good chance of just being dead weight in a lot of matches. An "uncompetitive" or "unhealthy" mon like, for example, Urshifu, will almost never be useless, that's why you use those terms on them.

I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept
Even if its the same concept (of trapping, because the abilities arent the same) comparing Dugtrio and Magnezone is just weird to me? Dugtrio could literally trap all Pokémon barring Ghost-types and just eliminate them thanks to its ridiculous speed tier and EdgeQuake coverage. Magnezone traps Steel-types. That's it. What if your opponent doesnt have a Steel-type, or it has a Steel-type that Magnezone cant deal with like Kartana or Heatran? This is another difference between Magnezone and Dugtrio.

It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle.
Here you're outright ignoring the fact that the teams that include Steel-types also have other defensive Pokémon that can lidiate with certain threats. For example, Hippowdon can manage Garchomp, and Heatran (Which can outspeed all Magnezone's sets barring Scarf; if you dont like this example you could even use Zapdos) can deal with Rillaboom.

Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two
See, again here. Im not mentioning the fact that offensive teams can manage these threats AND Magnezone, because even balance teams can have offensive and defensive answers to these even without Steel-types. What i said above applies here as well.

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned
Ok so, i dont know if this just applies to me (because i only build offensive teams) but i have NEVER thought about Magnezone when im building a team because it just isnt a threat thanks to its awful speed tier and middling bulk.

Overall, i dont think Magnezone is a current problem in the metagame. Is it a great support Pokémon? Yes, but its niche is limited to trapping Steel-types, and even stuff like Corviknight learn U-turn and can use Shed Shell if your team is weak to Rillazone or something. Offensive archetypes with Pokémon like like Dragapult, Volcarona and Heatran can just stop Magnezone easily and you can play around it with good predicts, thus making it useless in some matchups.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy?
:magnezone: isn't uncompetetive at all, it has only so much to trap, unlike Arena Trap or Shadow Tag its ability in Magnet Pull is only capable of trapping Steel-types and most Steel-types such as Heatran, Aegislash, opposing Magnezone, and Ferrothorn it has to be wary about. Even Corviknight can run a more speedy invested EV spread to U-turn out safely. All of the previous mentioned Pokemon Magnezone has to fear Knock Off or either STAB moves or coverage in forme of Fighting-type moves, which severely can weaken Magnezone. It isn't that easy at all to trap a Steel and call it a day. Plenty of the Steel-types could also creep Magnezone so they get the first hit off.

Magnezone - even though it can trap and remove Skarmory and Corviknight for the likes of Kartana and Rillaboom - can't do much outside of that and the fact it has Volt Switch and the less common used Teleport only to pivot, Ground-types have an easy way to just deter the Volt Switch attempt, and then you lost a lot of momentum, while attempting the Volt Switch.

I won't deny that Magnezone is one of the better Pokemon currently, with its amazing abilities it offers for a team, like trapping and removing the Steel-type birds for Rillaboom and Kartana, but all in all it isn't unhealthy nor uncompetetive, as its abilities to trap Pokemon only relies on Magnet Pull trapping opposing Steel-types, whereas Dugtrio and Pokemon like Gothitelle and Gothorita can trap nearly every Pokemon with a few exceptions.
 
I don't think either of Teleport, Future Sight, or Regenerator on their own are all that bad, and it's the regular Slowtwins that are the main culprits behind this controversy.

Teleport's extremely annoying, but I think that's only due to OU's main users of the move being really frickin' good at abusing it. Clefable's access to Magic Guard dodges hazard, weather, and status condition damage, letting it WishPort quite consistently. Blissey/Chansey are just tanky behemoths all-around that take next to nothing from Special moves, and Teleport lets them circumvent their lacking offensive presence by gaining momentum. However, most of all, the Slowtwins have Regenerator to soft-recover themselves upon coming back in after Teleporting out, and out of all the Port users, I don't think it's a hot take to say they're the most overbearing users. I don't believe that Clef and the Seys are nearly as problematic Teleport users compared to the Slowtwins.

Future Sight is, again, really only abused by the Slowtwins in OU, and GalarKing doesn't get access to Teleport. If we were to ban the Slowtwins, I don't see Future Sight Latis or even Tapu Lele being nearly as good at abusing it.

Regenerator sucks to deal with, but again, OU's abusers are among the best in the game. Not counting the Slowtwins and GalarKing, there's also Toxapex, Tornadus-T, and the more fringe Amoonguss and Tangrowth. The latter two I don't consider too problematic, but the former are highly controversial for reasons stated multiple times on this site. I'd rather just keep the best abusers of the ability on the radar instead of the entire ability as a whole. I don't see Regenerator Corsola making waves anytime soon.

If it were up to me, I'd start with looking at the Slowtwins first. Teleport, Future Sight, and Regenerator aren't broken/uncompetitive on their own, otherwise everything that uses it would be too overbearing (see Moody/Arena Trap). It's clear that the Slowtwins represent everything that the community seems to find toxic regarding the aforementioned 3 mechanics. Vouching to keep Slowking around to handle Tapu Lele, for example, is just another example of "broken beats broken". If Lele becomes too problematic post Slowking ban, then Suspect Test Tapu Lele afterwards.
 
I don't think Magnezone is broken. However if one goes back to read old Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Dugtrio suspects from over the years a common point of argument is that switching is a fundamental part of the game. Things like Shed Shell Lele were considered suboptimal sets in response to trapping. Imo you need Shed Shell on your birds and Toxapex rn (or Balloon Ditto) to not have your whole team collapse from Magnezone/Heatran blowing a hole in your defensive core.

I don't think that having a smaller pool of trapping targets for Magnet Pull compared to Arena Trap is really a logical or consistent defense of its place in the tier though. Switching is fundamental, yes? In my view this has always been one of those weird little leftover bits of tiering that never made a ton of sense. Dugtrio obviously warped the meta to an infinitely larger extent than Magnezone does - but imo that's not really the metric we should be looking at when you're looking at core game mechanics like switching.
 
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I don't think Magnezone is broken. However if one goes back to read old Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Dugtrio suspects from over the years a common point of argument is that switching is a fundamental part of the game. Things like Shed Shell Lele were considered suboptimal sets in response to trapping. Imo you need Shed Shell on your birds and Toxapex rn (or Balloon Ditto) to not have your whole team collapse from Magnezone/Heatran blowing a hole in your defensive core.

I don't think that having a smaller pool of trapping targets for Magnet Pull compared to Arena Trap is really a logical or consistent defense of its place in the tier though. Switching is fundamental, yes? In my view this has always been one of those weird little leftover bits of tiering that never made a ton of sense. Dugtrio obviously warped the meta to an infinitely larger extent than Magnezone does - but imo that's not really the metric we should be looking at when you're looking at core game mechanics like switching.
I never really thought “switching is fundamental” was a good argument because both switching and trapping abilities/moves were included by gamefreak and are thus both “fundamental”. I think what it comes down to is Arena Trap and Shadow Tag trap too much and are thus overpowered; since Magnet Pull only traps Steels it is not nearly as overpowered. Since I agree that switching is not necessarily fundamental, I never really understood why stuff like Trapinch was banned and why we didn’t just ban Dugtrio, Gothitelle, etc. but at this point it is what it is
EDIT: I remember that Dugtrio suspect followed by the Arena Trap one later and I always thought the council did that because many people really wanted Dugtrio banned, but it was just shy of the 60% majority the first time, so they suspected Arena Trap the second time because it would look bad to suspect the same thing twice in a row

EDIT again:
Here is a link to a post I made a few months ago concerning why I don’t like people referring to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag/Magnet Pull as “uncompetitive” and drawing a distinction between Arena Trap and Magnet Pull
 
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TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
I never really understood why stuff like Trapinch was banned and why we didn’t just ban Dugtrio, Gothitelle, etc
Originally in SM OU, the council tried suspecting Dugtrio. However, at this time a suspect ladder was used for tests, and on it some people tried using Diglett as a substitute to Dugtrio. Whilst it didn't have Dugtrio's fantastic Speed tier, Diglett could still do most of what Dugtrio could, most notably trapping Heatran. To a lesser extent, Trapinch was also used, which was slower but had passable bulk with Eviolite and EV investment and attack equal to Dugtrio. Consequently, some people wondered if perhaps Arena Trap as a whole should have been the target, and when the suspect returned no ban, many believed this could have skewed the result. When the council later suspected Arena Trap instead, it was banned, which may or may not have been a result of a different thing being suspected. Likewise, Eviolite Gothorita has occasionally been used in Ubers due to having marginally better bulk than Gothitelle and would definitely be able to replace Gothitelle as a trapper in OU (albeit unlikely to be able to run Gothitelle's TrickScarf set).
 
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Well, this is one mon that I did not expect anyone to argue as broken this gen. Mainly because it isn't. Look, Magnezone is not strictly bad in OU, but there's a reason it was previously floundering in the lower tiers for months: the loss of HP was a huge detriment to it, making it far less reliable at its main job and straight up flipping several match-ups. Magnezone isn't an issue not only because it only traps one type, but it's not good enough at trapping that one type to significantly impact the viability of those mons, especially the Specs set. When you look at the current OU landscape, every other Steel theoretically has some kind of counterplay to it. Looking at the individual matchups regarding the Specs set:

Bisharp: Sure, Zone's Modest Electric moves (and Body Press, if it has that) are a guaranteed OHKO on Bisharp- on the other hand, Bisharp's neutral Knock Off is a guaranteed 2HKO, and it outspeeds Modest, meaning you can't hard switch in unless you know it's going to use Iron Head (which is unlikely given how spammable Knock Off is). Zone can actually speed-creep Sharp by literally one point if Jolly, but then it loses the OHKO on Volt Switch and loses the guaranteed OHKO with Tbolt (and also Body Press, apparently). MU: Unreliable
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight: Now this KO is reliable. As far as the standard sets go, Zone will outspeed and OHKO Corv every time. U-turn does make it a bigger pain than Skarm, and rarer sets with Body Press can potentially 2HKO, but the former requires too much Speed investment vs 252 Speed Zone and the latter only works with Shed Shell. MU: Reliable

Excadrill:
Excadrill was never Zone's best match-up, and with the loss of HP Specs Zone can't OHKO. You can maybe not instantly die to EQ if Grassy Terrain is up, but if its a HH set alongside Rillaboom you're just screwed. MU: Bad

Ferrothorn
: This match-up has easily been hurt the worst by the loss of HP. Specs straight up can't do anything to Ferro; even if you have Press, you only have a chance to 4HKO, and that dwindles to a possible 5HKO once Leech Seed is in play. MU: Bad
4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 98-116 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: Even the defensive set outspeeds and guaranteed OHKOs with either Magma Storm or Earth Power. MU: Bad

Kartana
: Kart's SpD is bad enough that even Zone's resisted hits can OHKO. However, Sacred Sword means that Zone cannot hard switch into Kart, often forcing one to scout; if it's definitely Scarf and goes for something else, you're good. If it's Band, you also have to watch out for Knock Off. And if it's LO- just forget it. MU: Unreliable
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Melmetal: EQ and Superpower destroy you. The fact Zone actually outspeeds is countered by the fact that it doesn't OHKO even the least tanky Melmetal without hazard support. And if it's AV, you don't even 2HKO with Tbolt. You can catch Band if it locks into DIB or Thunder Punch, but you're basically forced to scout BandMetal before Zone can actually come in, so Mel can potentially switch out first. MU: Unreliable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 345-406 (82.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 153-180 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Skamory: The classic match-up; now, Skarm seems to actually be less reliable than Corv on first glance since it can slot Press in much more easily, which is a guaranteed 2HKO. If Skarm is at full HP, it can win the 1v1 if it hits Zone on the switch and survive on Sturdy. That said, this condition is situational and Zone's partner can easily take Skarm out after, meaning Zone has still done it's job. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scizor: The one non-OU mon I'll be commenting on, Tbolt reliably 2HKOs even SpD Scizor. However, U-turn is a thing, so if Scizor isn't low enough it just switches out into a potentially scary teammate. Also, the rare Superpower decimates Zone. MU: Unreliable

As you can see, Specs Zone is simply too unreliable against most of the resident Steel (minus the birds) to truly be a meta-defining mon; of the 9 main match-ups, 2 are good, 4 are iffy and 3 are straight up bad. Zone's biggest problem is that, given its intended role, Zone is actually pretty hard to position without the right support, as many Steels have ways of catching it on the switch, in some cases forcing you to scout with one of Zone's teammates before you bring it in, and in a game every bit of chip you take can potentially mean the difference between win or lose. While Dug also had a hard time coming in directly, it also has a far better speed tier. The silver lining is that Zone's role means that you don't have to worry about chip once it's in since Zone is usually only there for 1 or 2 opposing mons. Now, you may be asking why I haven't brought up the Iron Defense set yet. Well, simply put: I think ID set is far superior to the Specs set since it actually lets Zone perform its intended role more reliably. Substitute gives it a valuable safety net, And Air Balloon allows it to ease offensive pressure against itself. For a brief comparison:

Bisharp: Extra Def investment means that Sharp can't 2HKO you with neutral Knock Off, whereas you still OHKO with neutral Body Press. +2 still has a good chance to OHKO, but Sharp does actually have to set-up to beat you. MU: 50/50

Corviknight:
Even with less investment you still outspeed and 2HKO Corv with Tbolt. Now, the drop it power does mean healthy Corv can potentially survive and U-turn out, so this is the one match-up I'd say is a bit worse. MU: 50/50

Excadrill:
Air Balloon completely changes the dynamic, as Iron Head does pitiful damage and you easily easily chunk Drill in exchange and OHKO after ID. This crucially means that Drill can't switch into you (only Steel type that would really consider that), which alone boosts this match-up a lot. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 266-314 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn: And it would seem the Ferro-trapping days aren't necessarily done after all. This set allows Zone to do actual damage versus Ferro, 2HKOing after one ID. More crucially, Substitute lets it foil Ferro's Leech Seed attempts while caring less about Knock compared to Specs, meaning Ferro can't really do anything in return. MU: Reliable

Heatran:
Balloon means that Heatran actually has to hit Magma Storm against you, which combined with Sub potentially gives you a chance. Still not great. MU: Unreliable

Kartana:
Kartana is still a pain, but Banded Sacred Sword isn't guaranteed to OHKO this set, plus Zone can actually switch into Knock Off, so now you only need to make sure it's not LO. MU: 50/50
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Melmetal: Only Banded Superpower can answer ID Zone, and none of its other coverage can break Zone's sub, letting you get the ID necessary to 2HKO. Metal's low speed means that Zone can just take it easy once ID is in play. MU: Reliable

Skarmory:
Zone still decimates Skarm if it's lost even 1 HP, and Skarm's Body Press isn't even a reliable 2HKO. MU: Reliable

Scizor:
U-turn is annoying, but Zone can outspeed and safely sub, and isn't even reliably OHKOed by rare Superpower. Plus unlike Specs, ID Zone can actually do some damage to Scizor's teammate before being forced out. MU: 50/50

As you can see, ID Zone has overall much better match-ups against Steels, with 4 good, 4 okay and only 1 iffy, and only the match-up with Corviknight gets worse compared to Specs. Now, ID Zone does have the same issue as Specs Zone of safely getting it, especially since Balloon is so fragile, but having that Ground immunity can pack some nice benefits like dooming Metal if you come in on EQ (plus Teleport is still a thing). Chople Berry is another alternative depending on which Steels you most want to set-up on. Substitute is also huge since it means you're not automatically forced out by U-turn/Shed Shell shenanigans, meaning Zone can actually put some work in against non-Steels. Between its improved function in trapping Steels and having a bit more flexibility, I would say ID is the way to go if you use Zone.

TL;DR: Magnezone is by no means tier warping, and therefore not broken, since many Steels have counter-play to it and it can have a hard time coming in against its targets. That said, it's more specialized role does mean it's doing it's job as long as it can KO one or two opposing mons, and I personally believe it is more likely to accomplish this with the Iron Defense set vs the Specs set.
 
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Well, this is one mon that I did not expect anyone to argue as broken this gen. Mainly because it isn't. Look, Magnezone is not strictly bad in OU, but there's a reason it was previously floundering in the lower tiers for months: the loss of HP was a huge detriment to it, making it far less reliable at its main job and straight up flipping several match-ups. Magnezone isn't an issue not only because it only traps one type, but it's not good enough at trapping that one type to significantly impact the viability of those mons, especially the Specs set. When you look at the current OU landscape, every other Steel theoretically has some kind of counterplay to it. Looking at the individual matchups regarding the Specs set:

Bisharp: Sure, Zone's Modest Electric moves (and Body Press, if it has that) are a guaranteed OHKO on Bisharp- on the other hand, Bisharp's neutral Knock Off is a guaranteed 2HKO, and it outspeeds Modest, meaning you can't hard switch in unless you know it's going to use Iron Head (which is unlikely given how spammable Knock Off is). Zone can actually speed-creep Sharp by literally one point if Jolly, but then it loses the OHKO on Volt Switch and loses the guaranteed OHKO with Tbolt (and also Body Press, apparently). MU: Unreliable
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight: Now this KO is reliable. As far as the standard sets go, Zone will outspeed and OHKO Corv every time. U-turn does make it a bigger pain than Skarm, and rarer sets with Body Press can potentially 2HKO, but the former requires too much Speed investment vs 252 Speed Zone and the latter only works with Shed Shell. MU: Reliable

Excadrill:
Excadrill was never Zone's best match-up, and with the loss of HP Specs Zone can't OHKO. You can maybe not instantly die to EQ if Grassy Terrain is up, but if its a HH set alongside Rillaboom you're just screwed. MU: Bad

Ferrothorn
: This match-up has easily been hurt the worst by the loss of HP. Specs straight up can't do anything to Ferro; even if you have Press, you only have a chance to 4HKO, and that dwindles to a possible 5HKO once Leech Seed is in play. MU: Bad
4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 98-116 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: Even the defensive set outspeeds and guaranteed OHKOs with either Magma Storm or Earth Power. MU: Bad

Kartana
: Kart's SpD is bad enough that even Zone's resisted hits can OHKO. However, Sacred Sword means that Zone cannot hard switch into Kart, often forcing one to scout; if it's definitely Scarf and goes for something else, you're good. If it's Band, you also have to watch out for Knock Off. And if it's LO- just forget it. MU: Unreliable
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Melmetal: EQ and Superpower destroy you. The fact Zone actually outspeeds is countered by the fact that it doesn't OHKO even the least tanky Melmetal without hazard support. And if it's AV, you don't even 2HKO with Tbolt. You can catch Band if it locks into DIB or Thunder Punch, but you're basically forced to scout BandMetal before Zone can actually come in, so Mel can potentially switch out first. MU: Unreliable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 345-406 (82.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 153-180 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Skamory: The classic match-up; now, Skarm seems to actually be less reliable than Corv on first glance since it can slot Press in much more easily, which is a guaranteed 2HKO. If Skarm is at full HP, it can win the 1v1 if it hits Zone on the switch and survive on Sturdy. That said, this condition is situational and Zone's partner can easily take Skarm out after, meaning Zone has still done it's job. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scizor: The one non-OU mon I'll be commenting on, Tbolt reliably 2HKOs even SpD Scizor. However, U-turn is a thing, so if Scizor isn't low enough it just switches out into a potentially scary teammate. Also, the rare Superpower decimates Zone. MU: Unreliable

As you can see, Specs Zone is simply too unreliable against most of the resident Steel (minus the birds) to truly be a meta-defining mon; of the 9 main match-ups, 2 are good, 4 are iffy and 3 are straight up bad. Zone's biggest problem is that, given its intended role, Zone is actually pretty hard to position without the right support, as many Steels have ways of catching it on the switch, in some cases forcing you to scout with one of Zone's teammates before you bring it in, and in a game every bit of chip you take can potentially mean the difference between win or lose. While Dug also had a hard time coming in directly, it also has a far better speed tier. The silver lining is that Zone's role means that you don't have to worry about chip once it's in since Zone is usually only there for 1 or 2 opposing mons. Now, you may be asking why I haven't brought up the Iron Defense set yet. Well, simply put: I think ID set is far superior to the Specs set since it actually lets Zone perform its intended role more reliably. Substitute gives it a valuable safety net, And Air Balloon allows it to ease offensive pressure against itself. For a brief comparison:

Bisharp: Extra Def investment means that Sharp can't 2HKO you with neutral Knock Off, whereas you still OHKO with neutral Body Press. +2 still has a good chance to OHKO, but Sharp does actually have to set-up to beat you. MU: 50/50

Corviknight:
Even with less investment you still outspeed and 2HKO Corv with Tbolt. Now, the drop it power does mean healthy Corv can potentially survive and U-turn out, so this is the one match-up I'd say is a bit worse. MU: 50/50

Excadrill:
Air Balloon completely changes the dynamic, as Iron Head does pitiful damage and you easily easily chunk Drill in exchange and OHKO after ID. This crucially means that Drill can't switch into you (only Steel type that would really consider that), which alone boosts this match-up a lot. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 266-314 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn: And it would seem the Ferro-trapping days aren't necessarily done after all. This set allows Zone to do actual damage versus Ferro, 2HKOing after one ID. More crucially, Substitute lets it foil Ferro's Leech Seed attempts while caring less about Knock compared to Specs, meaning Ferro can't really do anything in return. MU: Reliable

Heatran:
Balloon means that Heatran actually has to hit Magma Storm against you, which combined with Sub potentially gives you a chance. Still not great. MU: Unreliable

Kartana:
Kartana is still a pain, but Banded Sacred Sword isn't guaranteed to OHKO this set, plus Zone can actually switch into Knock Off, so now you only need to make sure it's not LO. MU: 50/50
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Melmetal: Only Banded Superpower can answer ID Zone, and none of its other coverage can break Zone's sub, letting you get the ID necessary to 2HKO. Metal's low speed means that Zone can just take it easy once ID is in play. MU: Reliable

Skarmory:
Zone still decimates Skarm if it's lost even 1 HP, and Skarm's Body Press isn't even a reliable 2HKO. MU: Reliable

Scizor:
U-turn is annoying, but Zone can outspeed and safely sub, and isn't even reliably OHKOed by rare Superpower. Plus unlike Specs, ID Zone can actually do some damage to Scizor's teammate before being forced out. MU: 50/50

As you can see, ID Zone has overall much better match-ups against Steels, with 4 good, 4 okay and only 1 iffy, and only the match-up with Corviknight gets worse compared to Specs. Now, ID Zone does have the same issue as Specs Zone of safely getting it, especially since Balloon is so fragile, but having that Ground immunity can pack some nice benefits like dooming Metal if you come in on EQ (plus Teleport is still a thing). Chople Berry is another alternative depending on which Steels you most want to set-up on. Substitute is also huge since it means you're not automatically forced out by U-turn/Shed Shell shenanigans, meaning Zone can actually put some work in against non-Steels. Between its improved function in trapping Steels and having a bit more flexibility, I would say ID is the way to go if you use Zone.

TL;DR: Magnezone is by no means tier warping, and therefore not broken, since many Steels have counter-play to it and it can have a hard time coming in against its targets. That said, it's more specialized role does mean it's doing it's job as long as it can KO one or two opposing mons, and I personally believe it is more likely to accomplish this with the Iron Defense set vs the Specs set.
I appreciate that you took the time to write this up but the calc-wall is mostly beyond the point at issue. Above TailGlowVM mentions how something as weak as Diglett necessitated Arena Trap as a whole needing a ban. Looking at the matchup against every steel type is the wrong frame. You build backwards from what your trapper CAN trap. In Diglett's case, it's Heatran and Weakened Tyranitar, so your Volcorona/Charizard-Y can go wild. In Magnezone's case, you throw Rillaboom or Kartana or Zamazenta on your squad to blow holes in their team once Corv/Skarm are dead. This loops back to my original point about trapping abilities generally.

I personally view Shed Shell as an item only a bit more viable than running something like random Haze users in fear of facing a potential baton pass team. You're wasting a slot 80% of games just to not autolose those other 20%.
 
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I don't really post but there is just some weird thing on Smogon where people often like making exceptions based on mons they personally like but here are a couple of things I'd like to give my opinion on.

:magnezone: Magnet Pull :magnezone:

I got super annoyed at people during the arena trap suspect test when talking about diglet and trapinch. Diglet and trapinch can technically trap anything but in practice only really are capable of removing a handful of mons. Remember that we have to talk about what each one funcitonally traps instead of what it technically traps. Magnezone technically traps heatran, but who is trapped with who most of the time? Diglet, but especially trapinch fall into the same issue. However, those few mons they can trap could be critically important in keeping a certain sweeper in check. One example used during the suspect was trapinch trapping seismatoad and allowing dracovish to sweep. This caused you to make the same awkward plays that magnezone forces with the metal birds. If you don't run shedshell, which I often do, you suddenly have a fifty-fifty not only every time their sweeper hits the field but every turn they are on the field. If we justified those mons getting banned let's not make an exception for magnezone because we like dead skarms or something. Here is something to thing about.

In one instance let's say I send out dracovish and you have something that loses to it. Now you have to predict whether I double out to trapinch and trap your seismatoad. If you guess wrong you lose a mon or lose the game if toad dies.

In one instance let's say I send out garchomp on something that it beats. Now you have to predict whether I attack, or double into magnezone literally every turn that garchomp is on the field. If you guess wrong you lose a mon or lose the game if metal bird dies.

Now there is an important difference in these scenarios and you may have caught it if you are a good reader. Trapinch loses if it switches into toad and toad attacks, but magnezone can switch in at anytime on its targets and trap and kill, unless corv u-turns. The burden of magnezone is honestly far worse than the bird of something like trapinch.

Something that gives the game away for the pro-arena trap ban people is that they disliked diglet still trapping things like tran and tyranitar for stall/charizard y squads. He functions incredibly similar to magnezone in a comp like that but we just all agree that one of these is okay and the other isn't for some arbitrary reason.

Conclusion: I think smogon should be logically consistent and remove magnet pull from the metagame or retest trapinch/diglet/wynaut/gothita because then obviously trapping as a concept is not broken.

Also, Finchinator (whom I usually agree with) shutdown comparisons to magnet pull because it wasn't in the game. Now it is. Now we have to come up with a better reason to differentiate the weaker trappers like trapinch, diglet, gothita, wynaut and even wobbuffet from trappers like magneton/zone. If we can't we just have to say trapping is broken to keep the former out of the meta, but that does also keep the latter out of the meta. I don't think either of these are horrible outcomes, but we have to pick one or else we are just picking favorites.

:cloyster: King's Rock :cloyster:

I understand the sentiment as it does feel really bad when your opponent plays horribly and you have two cloyster checks intact and he needs 3 flinches and gets every single one. If you call king's rock uncompetitive you need to draw the line somewhere and it will be arbitrary. Is a gyara flinching with waterfall past a check uncompetitive? Is bisharp flinching past a check uncompetitive? A torn needing to land every hurricane to win and hitting all 5 (seriously though, this is a low chance just like king's rock flinching)? These are all scenarios where you can lose when you get unlucky and it feels bad but that is part of an RNG game. Sometimes that better player loses. I can't speak to gen 5, but if it is ripping up the meta there, just ban cloyster. If you think cloyster is broken in this gen (I don't) then test cloyster, not the rock.

:Slowbro: Slowtwins :Slowking:

There is absolutely no reason to suspect any other part of the equation (unless you think boots are broken, but I don't even think they are a huge part of why the slowtwins are so good this gen). People trying really trying to do complex bans of regen+teleport+fsight because that's the only one that catches only the problematic pokemon with no collateral. The problem: That is literally just leaving the two broken mons, slowking and slowbro. They need to go imo, but to be consistent we should only even consider testing those mons. Doing a complex ban like that would literalyl be like the people we make fun of for saying we should have blaze blaziken, or mewtwo but no STABs.

:toxapex: Regenerator :toxapex:

People going for regen need to understand how strong offensive threats have gotten. Good luck checking everything without regen cores. If we just wanted to remove it because it's annoying to play against, we would have to vastly scale back the power level of OU sweepers. Those bans, I think people wouldn't be too hot on.

:heatran: Heatran :heatran:

People got mad at arena trap for making pokemon like heatran (in past gens) and pex run shedshell, yet heatran makes me run shed shell on my pex. If we are to be logically consistent that a pokemon forcing certain suboptimal items are unhealthy and should be removed, just think about heatran. I personally don't mind running the shell, but that's just me.

Personally I also just hate how much this mon forces progress against all of its checks, which usually lack recovery. I usually end up just running pex with the shell, and in the past I ran spdef gliscor because I hate this mon. Terrain and nature power made it even better at breaking past things that are supposed to beat it.
 
Too much ban happy posts for stuff that isnt even like remotely broken, just consider looking at Future Sight or some portion of it Teleport, w/e, and then go from there assuming Zama stays banned. The King's Rock, insert other RNG Misc item being discussed, is more widespread for formats than just OU anyways so it'll probably be figured out in Policy Review.
 
Just wanted to give my thoughts on the recent topics I have seen here -


1) Slowtwins/Futureport/Regenport dilemma -

I do think this a problem we have to look into as Slowtwins are able to use a strategy designed to be used with excessive positioning very easily and very consistently multiple times a match with minimal risk. Their attributes completely negate the shortcomings of FS. They do get a lot of opportunities in match to fire these off due their solid defensive profile and make Wall Breakers nightmarishly difficult to pivot around or at very least put you on the defensive. You may go to a dark type to take the offensive on a predicted Future Sight but they can just so easily click Teleport and go to the fighting type usually backing them up and lose almost nothing, and even if you stay in with your mon that Slowtwin switched in on to click another attack on a predicted switch from Teleport, then no harm no foul, the Twin can switch in again. This cycle is entirely in the Slowtwin user's favor. It's effects can already be seen in the recent as defensive mons susceptible to FS like Tang, Pex, Amoongus etc. have gone down in usage, while not entirely out because of FS, that does play a part. Mons like Corvi, Slowtwins themselves, etc. which can take on FS are also slowly risen in usage, again not entirely because of FS but still that makes them that much more effective. Zapdos while mostly decreased in usage due to prevalence of knock off, Corvi resists FS while it does not. This must also be taken as a factor. Buzzwole is making a small comeback but I will argue that FS prevents him from getting to comfortable. Even when he checks so much, he can be invalidated in any given match with FS.

I don't think any of the 3 (Future Sight, Teleport, Regen) are broken on their own, maybe Regen is bit unhealthy but we have had that for a long time now and it's not overly broken even now. I think Slowtwins do deserve to be suspected as a whole rather than move combination because only they have access to that combination. As I highlighted above, Slowtwins use all 3 to in tandem with each other to be effective. Slowking Galar doesn't have Teleport and it has not been using FS nearly as effectively as the Slowtwins and also gone down in usage. Defensive mons are always kinda Iffy to assess as being broken but Slowtwins really do reach that threshold IMO as they are genuinely offensively potent.

2) Teleport -

I personally don't think Teleport is broken. The only 3 mons that regularly use Teleport are Slowtwins and Blissey. Clef uses it very rarely nowadays. So anyways my point is that these mons are the reason that Teleport seems unhealthy. The former 2 have Regen and the latter has unparalleled astronomical special bulk that they can pivot almost risk free. Other pivots like Corvi, Mandi etc. are have to take chip when pivoting.

Another point is that people say that if Slowtwins got Flip Turn, they would be doing the same thing and it is kinda true for the most part but Teleport is definitely better. With teleport, You take no contact damage/ status, it can't be blocked by water immunities, even the negative priority is good as something like Ferro can't underspeed the Slowtwins to hit the aggressor rather than a hit that would be Regened by the Twins anyways. On the other hand Flip Turn isn't stopped by taunt which would have made Slowtwins a complete counter to Magma Trap tran and the rare Whirlpool Madness Taunt Fini. There is some give and take but either Pivot move would have worked in a majority of cases.

I think Pivot moves as a whole lower the skill ceiling of the game but they are not suspect worthy IMO. The only problematic thing I see with Teleport is the going last thing and thus always giving the user momentum but the mons using it are extremely slow anyways. Unless specific situations like I outlined above with Ferro (Which I admit would be very helpful but not a deal breaker if not present), Slowtwins and Blissey were going last anyways.

3) Boots -

I don't really think boots are broken tbh. They completely changed the landscape of the metagame, true, but is that a bad thing though? We have just come from a Hazard focused meta game to a positioning Wall Breakers with fast Boots Pivots and slow Boots Pivots meta game. The games do take took long and the meta game in general is slow and too reliant on Pivots but that is just the unique identity of the generation, a identity that people don't like, but an identity nonetheless. Hazards are still pretty prominent though, Spikes Ferro thriving and Skarmory also rising while Rocks are still a staple on every single team so it's not like boots have invalidated hazards either. Another thing I will mention here is Boots are so effective in tandem with Pivot moves. Mons like Zeraora, Pult, Koko etc. are actually able to use Boots because of Pivot moves. Off the top of my head, the only non rock weak mon without a Pivot move that uses boots is Unaware Clef and that is also mostly to bluff Magic Guard. Boots + Pivot moves are the problem IMO.

That being said, I don't have very strong opinion on these. If people want to the change the metagame back to quick paced Hazard focused one without boots, then I am not opposed to it.

I have to say on thing though, I always had a distaste for Pivot moves but now seeing so many unhealthy things rooting back to them, I kind of wonder what the meta game would have looked like if we removed Pivot moves completely. Not saying they even need to be talked about but just an interesting idea. Maybe not though as the meta would just come down to 50/50s every single turn.

4) Knock Off -

This is another thing I don't think is broken. It is an extremely good move, no doubt, but it is something that every team needs to be prepared for. True. that there are no Z moves, Megas etc. to absorb but you can still minimize the damage by selecting which mons can still function without losing their item in battle, not letting multiple mons get knocked off and not load too many of them in the first place in the teambuilder. You will never let a mon dependent on their item to be knocked off. On the contrary, It's a good part of meta imo as it helps in making progress and is not oppressive.

5) King's Rock -

I would love to see this banned, honestly, but the only thing is that Serene Grace Iron Head or Air Slash has even higher chances of flinching. Every undesirable facets that applies to King's Rock applies to them as well like RNG, uncompetitive etc. The only thing is that Cloyster is more potent than the above 2 and has real sweeping potential if it does get the flinch. If we were talking about brokeness then I see the argument of Cloyster being more problematic but as the basis of argument here is uncompetitveness then I don't see why we are suspecting less than 50% while not 60%.

One argument I can see is that the above moves have the Flinch chance inherently while Cloyster does not but technically that makes it even worse as Cloyster needs an item for it while they can Flinch naturally. Don't get me wrong, I support the banning of King's Rock but this kind of just seems inconsistent to me is all.

6) Heatran -

I think this mon is alright too. While in theory this mon can beat nearly anything long term with it's Toxic Taunt set but it has middling speed, doesn't have reliable recovery. is vulnerable to hazards and relies on a 75% accurate move to do this. It is incredibly good and is still very effective despite having these drawbacks though. While it doesn't have any true counters, it has a decent amount of checks like Chomp, Dnite, Hydrei, Slowking, Fini, Urshifu, Pert (It can even switch with Flip turn to keep momentum) etc. You don't particularly need Shed Shell Pex to counter it. Not to mention the scores of fighting types and ground types that can outspeed and OHKO it on offense which is the safest option as the other mon are liable to fall to things like Nature Power in terrains, Sheer Power of Eruption, Power Herb Solar Beam etc. The thing is Tran can't do all this at once, requires support to pull these off, gives up moveslots and even items in some cases for these and still could be out offensed.

A mon that is very effective and must be kept in mind while team building but one that has sufficient reliable counter play.

7) Dragapult -

Another mon I don't find to be broken. I think very highly of this mon and made a post about rising it in VR. It truly is one of the most incredible mons in the tier and arguably even the most potent. There is absolutely no non-passive checks to this beast. The one and only issue is it's middling power but it can overcome that through choice items or Status Hexs. But still that is what makes it possible for HO teams to deal with. It just doesn't hit hard enough without the initial boost from specs or slowly stautsing and chipping down the team. HO teams need to be able to exploit any choice locked kill they suffer and they apply too much pressure for Pult to get it's Hex Status going. Against balance this lack of power is noticeable as Mons like Spdef Clef, Pex, Tran, Fini, Mandi etc. effectively can answer it multiple times a match. Pult can break past it's checks but can also be prevented from making progress by opposing team. The better plays better will win this exchange, which is a healthy interaction imo.

8) Volc-

Somewhat like Tran, has a lot of checks and can choose them as well. But it can't do everything at once and has a perfect counter in Tran which will always win 1v1 unless it got knock off early game or it doesn't have one Taunt or Toxic, which it will if you are trying to counter Volc with Tran. It is a mon that you have to keep in mind while team building but has effective and reliable counterplay. I don't think it is broken.

9) Magnezone -

This is an unpopular opinion but I also think Magnet Pull should have been banned. I agree that is manageable as it doesn't trap too much but the principal of trapping itself is uncompetitive and I would ban it even if you could trap just one mon. And it really is mostly used to trap Corvi and Ferro and now even Skarmory again so only 3, really very few but still finds itself to be one of the better mons and supports some of more effective teams around. That is how potent trapping really is. It doesn't matter even if you have to run a very mediocre mon as long as it does it's job. It doesn't matter than Zone is almost useless if those mons don't show up as it's team isn't exactly unhappy to see them not show up as they are trying to remove them in the first place.

Also it really is very effective at trapping Corvi when it does show up. Shed Shell is not a 100% as Zone teams often run Rilla and it loves to throw out knocks. You can't really avoid it in such a condition. Even if you do it a few times, it is entirely in their favor as they just need to do it once despite you running a item solely to prevent trapping, you still get trapped. Running speed isn't too feasible either as not only does Zone run speed itself so Corvi need a decent amount of investment for speed which makes it noticeably less bulkier but as Zone's sole reason for existing is trapping Corvi, that man will even go max speed if it becomes too commonplace which Corvi absolutely can't afford to creep. Ferro gets trapped by any speed Zone as long as it is Iron defense Body Press.

It can still help against other steels like Bish which could be removed by a Body Press predicting it to come in on a defog and then you can defog in peace. Scarf Kart can't click moves other than Sacred Sword freely, The rare Uturn less Scizor also get trapped making Zone a great partner for Kyurem.


That is the gist my point that trapping is just uncompetitive and even though Zone just traps steels, it still forces them to make awkward plays or risk just dying to Zone. It is not a good thing to allow trapping in any shape or form imo so I agree that it should have been banned.

It is not that it is overbearing or broken to the point of mons like Urshifu/Dracovish or even more apt comparisons like Gothitelle, or Dugtrio which could trap everything but trapping is still trapping even if it is just 3 mons but it can potentially go higher. For Example -

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 204-244 (59.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In either case your Mirror Coat KOs Tran back. Who is to say that you can't run this with Volc? As Volc really doesn't care about steels other than Tran, so it doesn't matter that this Zone can't trap other steels. You had a perfect counter to Volc to but lost because of trapping. Not saying it is particularly viable but just illustrating my point why trapping is bad.

Trapping really shouldn't be allowed in any capacity. It only trapping steels is not a argument I agree with.

Well that just about wraps up my thoughts on the major discussion points I have been seeing in the thread. Hope everyone has a good day!!
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
9) Magnezone -

This is an unpopular opinion but I also think Magnet Pull should have been banned. I agree that is manageable as it doesn't trap too much but the principal of trapping itself is uncompetitive and I would ban it even if you could trap just one mon. And it really is mostly used to trap Corvi and Ferro and now even Skarmory again so only 3, really very few but still finds itself to be one of the better mons and supports some of more effective teams around. That is how potent trapping really is. It doesn't matter even if you have to run a very mediocre mon as long as it does it's job. It doesn't matter than Zone is almost useless if those mons don't show up as it's team isn't exactly unhappy to see them not show up as they are trying to remove them in the first place.

Also it really is very effective at trapping Corvi when it does show up. Shed Shell is not a 100% as Zone teams often run Rilla and it loves to throw out knocks. You can't really avoid it in such a condition. Even if you do it a few times, it is entirely in their favor as they just need to do it once despite you running a item solely to prevent trapping, you still get trapped. Running speed isn't too feasible either as not only does Zone run speed itself so Corvi need a decent amount of investment for speed which makes it noticeably less bulkier but as Zone's sole reason for existing is trapping Corvi, that man will even go max speed if it becomes too commonplace which Corvi absolutely can't afford to creep. Ferro gets trapped by any speed Zone as long as it is Iron defense Body Press.

It can still help against other steels like Bish which could be removed by a Body Press predicting it to come in on a defog and then you can defog in peace. Scarf Kart can't click moves other than Sacred Sword freely, The rare Uturn less Scizor also get trapped making Zone a great partner for Kyurem.


That is the gist my point that trapping is just uncompetitive and even though Zone just traps steels, it still forces them to make awkward plays or risk just dying to Zone. It is not a good thing to allow trapping in any shape or form imo so I agree that it should have been banned.

It is not that it is overbearing or broken to the point of mons like Urshifu/Dracovish or even more apt comparisons like Gothitelle, or Dugtrio which could trap everything but trapping is still trapping even if it is just 3 mons but it can potentially go higher. For Example -

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 204-244 (59.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In either case your Mirror Coat KOs Tran back. Who is to say that you can't run this with Volc? As Volc really doesn't care about steels other than Tran, so it doesn't matter that this Zone can't trap other steels. You had a perfect counter to Volc to but lost because of trapping. Not saying it is particularly viable but just illustrating my point why trapping is bad.

Trapping really shouldn't be allowed in any capacity. It only trapping steels is not a argument I agree with.

Well that just about wraps up my thoughts on the major discussion points I have been seeing in the thread. Hope everyone has a good day!!
This was exactly what I was trying to point out. Really hate it how I can never word my thoughts properly in these kinds of posts ffs

Anyway, I somewhat take back what I said that Magnezone is next to useless outside bullying its prey. Now that I think about it, it can actually do some decent work since the only ones that can safely come in on both its stabs is Zeraora, Galarian Slowking, Blissey and itself, unless I'm missing something. That's only if its using choice specs which would actually hurt quite a bit to offensive mons. Like with Heatran, Magnezone is revenge killed by literally every offensive mon in the tier but against defense, it can actually be quite irritating. Steel stab that is complimented by electric is really good so this thing can actually put a dent at just about anything offensive mon. It may be a different story if its not running specs but its stabs alone are irritating

I still think that despite Magnezone's flaws, the issue really isn't with Magnezone but rather with its ability. Trapping one single type might not be a big deal until you realize how much of the metagame the steel types actually stave off. I'm not sure if the other mons with the same ability as Zone are in ss but this one eyed metal thing just got the brunt of the blame because it's far better than other magnet pullers. I also agree that shed shell isn't a foolproof answer because metal birds, and to a lesser extent, durians, are among the better knock off sponges. While they don't appreciate losing their items, they can still do their jobs even if it is removed

Now, while I do think that trapping is uncompetitive due to the nature of making extremely risky plays just not to instantly lose to a certain mon, I am not gonna agree with trapping moves being uncompetitive because with trapping moves, you actually have to make an effort to trap the right target unlike with shadow tag or arena trap or even magnet pull where all you have to do is use one of the a million switch moves available, espcially teleport. With trapping abilities, if you trap the wrong one, you can simply switch out and try again when your opponent makes a mistake but with trapping moves, you have to force in your target or catch it on the switch. Heatran and sometimes Azumarill are probably the only ones that uses trap moves but again, they have to force in their targets and if they trap a wrong one, they can die to that target. For example, Heatran or Azu traps a Garchomp, now they have to run or they die and their target gets to live. Basically, you have to make a conscious effort of trapping your target using trapping moves instead of just putting yourself in a position where all you have to do is send your trapper out and near auto win. I'm not gonna be surprised if no one understands this since it is a bit confusing the way I worded this
 

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