Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

ausma

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Magnezone (and Magnet Pull) are definitely not broken.

Many arguments are being brought up regarding its impact on the tier and how it promotes something we've deemed uncompetitive even when the sample size is considerably decreased. However, a lot of these arguments do not understand the crucial difference in how Magnet Pull executes itself in comparison to something like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, as well as the primary abuser in question, how it chooses to make use of the ability, and how it uses its ability can awkwardly shift its value tremendously on a game-to-game basis.

The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.
The big issue with this kind of observation is something that the above poster observes themselves: it can't trap anything else when it specializes. Sure, it can beat Heatran with an AV Mirror Coat set in theory, but what happens in the matchups where Heatran isn't there? It seems to lose to Ferrothorn and has trouble pressuring Corviknight; and hell, even if it wants to beat Heatran, it outright cannot if Magnezone has sustained any prior pressure, even from simply switching into Heatran, since it's reliant on being healthy to do its job. In most cases, using a set like this puts the user's team at a handicap.

Magnezone's Body Press set is considered to be Magnezone's best set because it not only beats Ferrothorn, but it can still reliably trap Skarmory and chipped Corviknight. What's more is that Magnezone with this set also has utility in beating other Pokemon like Zeraora (when already boosted) and Blissey, which gives it more value in a greater range of games since it is not a one-and-done set. The issue with its other sets is that they are one and done, if reliable. Magnezone itself lacks the longevity and the speed to find much value outside of being a matchup trapper. As a Steel-type, it is terrible and almost always requires another Steel-type to take on the heat due to its inherent specialization and complete inability to compress roles for teams. As a wallbreaker, Blissey and most other special walls give it a major run for its money as typically it is forced into 50/50s, either making it potentially dangerous or just a complete waste of momentum. Most of the time, it is a liability; the only reason it is considered good is that it can be a strong enabler for several Pokemon and easily remove key threats. Magnezone is not very useful outside of this purpose and lacks the traits necessary to make it a potent game-to-game presence when used as a specialized trapper.
 
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Magnezone (and Magnet Pull) are definitely not broken.

Many arguments are being brought up regarding its impact on the tier and how it promotes something we've deemed uncompetitive even when the sample size is considerably decreased. However, a lot of these arguments do not understand the crucial difference in how Magnet Pull executes itself in comparison to something like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, as well as the primary abuser in question, how it chooses to make use of the ability, and how it uses its ability can awkwardly shift its value tremendously on a game-to-game basis.

The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.



The big issue with this kind of observation is something that the above poster observes themselves: it can't trap anything else when it specializes. Sure, it can beat Heatran with an AV Mirror Coat set in theory, but what happens in the matchups where Heatran isn't there? It seems to lose to Ferrothorn and has trouble pressuring Corviknight; and hell, even if it wants to beat Heatran, it outright cannot if Magnezone has sustained any prior pressure, even from simply switching into Heatran, since it's reliant on being healthy to do its job. In most cases, using a set like this puts the user's team at a handicap.

Magnezone's Body Press set is considered to be Magnezone's best set because it not only beats Ferrothorn, but it can still reliably trap Skarmory and chipped Corviknight. What's more is that Magnezone with this set also has utility in beating other Pokemon like Zeraora (when already boosted) and Blissey, which gives it more value in a greater range of games since it is not a one-and-done set. The issue with its other sets is that they are one and done, if reliable. Magnezone itself lacks the longevity and the speed to find much value outside of being a matchup trapper. As a Steel-type, it is terrible and almost always requires another Steel-type to take on the heat due to its inherent specialization and complete inability to compress roles for teams. As a wallbreaker, Blissey and most other special walls give it a major run for its money as typically it is forced into 50/50s, either making it potentially dangerous or just a complete waste of momentum. Most of the time, it is a liability; the only reason it is considered good is that it can be a strong enabler for several Pokemon and easily remove key threats. Magnezone is not very useful outside of this purpose and lacks the traits necessary to make it a potent game-to-game presence when used as a specialized trapper.
See that is my point exactly. With it's Body Press set it is reliably able to trap the 3 steels that you mentioned.(Please don't take that Heatran point too seriously, it was just to prove that you can potentially trap other steel if you absolutely tech Zone that way, not an argument that Zone can trap all steel types. I will continue my argument with only the Body Press set in mind.)

With that out if the way, my point is that even if it just traps just these 3 mons, the trapping of these 3 mons itself is uncompetitive. All the things that we talk about like causing 50/50 entirely in favour of the Trapper, causing awkward plays etc. still apply to these 3.

Zone might not be useful in every single match but both Corvi and Ferro are comfortably top 10 in usage so it does fulfill it's trapping purpose in a lot of matches. It is not consist in every game but it is not downright matchup fishing either.

Even if these mons don't appear, the Zone's team doesn't mind that too much as they wanted to just remove them in the first place. Their goal isn't to make Zone put in work but to just abuse the absence of the steel birds and Ferro. When they don't appear, there will be other mons in place of them, no doubt, but Zone teams can generally deal with them and just appreciate the removal of these 3 when they do appear so much that they are willing to play with a ,Zone, a dead slot in other games.

For example -

The Toxic Protect DIB EQ Melly set is stone walled by these 3 mons but in their absence this is an incredibly threatening set to face. Pex is 2HKOed by EQ and the slowtwins get Toxiced and have to be vary of DIB flinch. Zapdos gets seriously whittled by Toxic protect while it can EQ on roost as well. This also fills the slot of the traditional steel which Zone couldn't fill.

Another example is DD Roost Wingbeat, EQ Dnite which actually loses to both Corvi and Ferro but is similarly threatening in their absence.

Lele doesn't have to hit Focus Blasts with Rocks up and Chip on Corvi, Exca can potentially sweep on Sand. Chomp can run give up Fire Move. Even some thing like Sub Roost Kyurem appreciates the removal of a Pressure mon. Slowtwins appreciate an absorber of Future sight being gone etc.

Zone also is potentially great at the Hazard game as it can trap Corvi, arguably the best defogger, Ferro and Skarm, the 2 best spikers in the game, and can pull the double into Bish switching in to defog to remove it for good and defog comfortably.

Writing this did make me realise one thing though, even though Zone traps so few mons, it is so effective because these are some of the most important mons it the tier, which on being trapped, open up dangerous scenarios for the user. It's not like it is being used to trap trash like Regieleki.

It won't have been so good unless these mons where who they are. I few months back it was deservedly RU, but especially Corvi but also Ferro to a lesser have risen in a past few months so Zone is back in business.

My point was to illustrate how useful and effective just trapping these mons is to the point that It doesn't need to trap other steels or even do anything outside of that role unless and until it can do this reliably, which it can. It is not to the point of matchup fishing like Suicine or Primarina and the drawback of being dead weight in other matches is worth it.

Now, I feel like I have established it clearly that Zone is a very useful mon with a unique and important role which I honestly think even the above posters will agree with completely. TBF nobody denied that in the first place that Zone is good and they probably have even greater knowledge of Zone's position in the meta game than I do but I think people fixated too much on how many steel types it can trap and how useless it is when these 3 don't show up which is completely fair and I also agree with this sentiment. I just want to make 2 small comparisons to illustrate who just trapping even mons is uncompetitive and what we generally considered to be Banworthy.

1) After Dugtrio was banned initially people used Diglett as it was just good enough to trap Tran, Kyurem Black and Ttar. Even earlier this gen people used Giga Drain Trapinch with Vish as it was just good enough to trap Seismitoad and Pex. Despite their limited usefulness and glaring flaws greater than even Zone's they were used. Technically they did have Arena Trap as ausma noted so they could trap other things but their stats were simply so outclassed in OU, they couldn't actually trap anything else unless HEAVILY weakened. They were still banned though on the principal of being unhealthy though.

2) Recently Shadow Tag was banned in Ubers as Gothietelle could trap NDM and Erernatus both unless they ran some weird offensive/defensive sets. Ubers is different than OU, no doubt, and these mons were much more omnipresent than the 3 Zone trappable steels in OU and Goth was much more consistent but the very rough ideas are same a outclassed mon being used solely to trap a few defensive mons, being matchup dependent.

While not completely accurate, the comparisons are kinda similar to Zone situation. They may be lot more consistent overall and may have been enabling more broken strategies but the basic gist of them being matchup dependent, only trapping 2-3 mons and being a dead slot in a lot of matches is similar.

Zone is functioning similarly albeit only against the 3 steels mentioned above but still. It also enables mons like a trapper is expected to. So why is not considered unhealthy, as the number of mons being trapped or the trapper's usefulness outside of that role have not been historically assessed.

I don't want to spam in this thread either as this is my second extremely long post and I might even be missing something here as by my logic Pursuit should have been banned as well and it is MUCH more effective than Magnet Pull but I have never ever seen anyone talk about it, let alone want it banned.
 

Clone

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Magnezone has been a staple in OU one way or another since BW. It's even used here and there in DPP but BW was when it started to become frequent.

It has not been OP for the past 10 years, nor is it OP now. To say it is shows a lack of understanding the metagame. It reliably traps three Pokémon: Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Skarmory. And two of those (Ferro and Corv), aren't even guaranteed (+ Body Press Skarm does a good chunk too). ID Body Press is the only set that can trap and kill Ferro, and Corv has U-Turn. If these criteria aren't met, Magnezone is effectively useless. It does not have a niche in the tier outside of trapping these three mons.

No, Magnezone trapping 3 mons in a tier does not make it uncompetitive, no matter how common those mons may be. If you're facing Magnezone + *insert breaker here* and your only way of dealing with *insert breaker here* is one of those 3 steels, that's just a bad match-up. It happens. OU is full of threats and you can't account for everything with only 6 mons. That being said, that doesn't mean you can't accommodate for a threat with other mons on the team. If, for example, your only way of preventing Rillaboom from 6-0ing you is slapping a Corviknight on your team, that's just poor building and you're gonna get punished by Rillazone. That's poor team composition.

I don't know where this entitlement is coming from that you shouldn't have any trapping at all in Pokémon. It's been around since the days of ADV. It's part of the game. If the trapping is OP, like in the case of Shadow Tag, it gets banned, like it has for the past 3 gens. Trapping is a viable strategy. It has the potential to be overpowered like anything else, but it only becomes OP when it is restrictive on counterplay and team-building. Magnezone fits neither of those criteria. The three steels are still very common, and there is sufficient counterplay in OU to combat Magnezone (read: its useless outside of trapping these Pokémon).

I don't know why this is a discussion. Magnezone isn't OP, and there are far more pressing matters in this tier that I feel need to be addressed before something like this even crosses my mind as a problem.
 
I don't think it's really about Magnezone being OP, which I don't think anyone really believes, but more that Magnet Pull, just like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, is an uncompetitive element.

Every turn you have up to 9 options to choose from as a player (4 attacks, 5 switches depending on how much of your team is still alive) and you weigh these options against the <=9 options that your opponent can choose from to make the most progress in a match. Trapping abilities effectively remove 5 of these 9 options thus taking away control of your ways of making progress in a way you planned to do.

Magnet Pull has fewer possible victims, but Dugtrio for example was also only used to remove specific threats that block you from winning with whatever else you have in the back. Once the trapper is in vs what you specifically need removed, the result is the same.

This is also different from how e.g. Pursuit worked as you still could evaluate your options and choose to go for a switch and take double damage, or stay in, get off an attack and possibly even live. Though counterplay is more limited as opposed to when the move isn't present. With trapping abilities, you don't even have that trade-off to choose from.
(The opponent also had to select the move. Bisharp 50/50's with Sucker/Pursuit vs your EQ Lati were really fun ...)

Now don't get me wrong. I actually really like Zone and would be sad to see it go. But if the other trapping abilities were banned for being uncompetitive, then Arena Trap is too and saying otherwise is kinda hypocrite or at least inconsistent.
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
I don't think it's really about Magnezone being OP, which I don't think anyone really believes, but more that Magnet Pull, just like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, is an uncompetitive element.

To the topic of the devil in the room, which in my opinion isn't a devil at all: :ss/Magnezone:

Magnezones Magnet Pull isn't anything as OP as you believe Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are. Magnet Pull solely traps Steel-types and that's about it. While Magnezone traps them pretty comfotably and can reliably remove some of them, it still ins't an uncompetetive aspect of the tier and policywise at all.

The Magnezone user still has to be wary about the aspect, that while Magnezone is really good at trapping Steels-types, it can get worn down pretty easily. Magnezone has to be wary about different aspects in trapping them. The different aspects are as followed:

  1. Speed creeping Magnezone (Magnezone isn't the fastest Pokemon overall initially, unless it runs a Choice Scarf to threaten Kartana)
  2. Coverage against Magnezone (Fighting-type or Ground-type coverage)
  3. Item dosposal in forme of Knock Off
  4. or STAB moves targeted at Magnezone
  5. furthermore Magnezones typing, while being good, still leaves it vulnerable to a plethora of neutral moves
Shadow Tag and Arena Trap work entirely different from Magnet Pull. The amount of Pokemon Magnezone traps is pretty reduced compared to the former two abilities in Shadow Tag and Arena Trap.

Shadow Tag enables the opposing Pokemon to trap nearly everything on your team, unless you run Baton Pass (which in itself is banned), U-turn or Volt Switch, or if the Pokemon is holding a Shed Shell or is a Ghost-type.
Arena Trap is basically the same but with a different effect, it can not trap Flying-types of Pokemon with Levitate. Or with the use of the move Baton Pass (which again, is banned as a whole in most (later) formats).

This leaves us to the conclusion, that we have to prepare for either of them with a very limited amount of counterplay to it. Based on the smogon wide clause, those two abilities are pretty controversial in this aspect and deemed broken in most competetive aspects, and therefore they got banned in a large portion of tiers / formats, to preserve a healthy metagame and competetive structure in these said tiers.

Now to
Magnet Pulls Difference to the above two mentioned abilities. Magnet Pulls array of trapping Pokemon is heavily reduced to only Steel-type Pokemon, and even then those Steel-types aren't that vulnerable to Magnezone in the first place, as explained above. This leaves the counterplay to Magnezone (Magnet Pull) to a large portion on how to handle it. Be it with playing around that threat, removing its item via Knock Off, or just simply speed creeping Magnezone, which in itself isn't that difficult, as Magnezone has a pretty low initial base of 60, which means most Steel-types can outpace it naturally or just speed creep it if they are worried about Magnezone.

Other issues Magnezone itself faces is a pretty fast metagame with hard hitters, so it needs support to be brought in safely and it has to be executed correctly and not in a radged attempt, or else you'll lose your Magnezone early on or it'll be weakened, which makes an attempt to trap a Steel-type later pretty difficult.

More issues Magnezone faces are entry hazards, while Stealth Rocks might not effect it much due to its own Steel-typing, Spikes can be a very large hindering aspect for it, whittling and weaken Magnezone pretty fast in the progress of the game.

While admittingly this Pokemon is pretty good at what it does, it comes with a significant amount of flaws, which have to be considered when building with Magnezone, so a good amount of support should be considered. And even then, each set faces different issues to the point where some sets even face overlapping counterplay to Magnezone itself. With the heavy influx of defensive Ground-types such as Landorus-T, Tankchomp, and the heavy influx of Pokemon with great coverage, Magnezone (while being a good Pokemon) still faces some issues.

Conclusion:
Even tho Magnezone is a pretty good Pokemon in itself and has stand its ground in OU once again, I do not believe it is broken / OP / uncompetetive. The amount it traps is pretty limited and it has to be brought in cautiously, with the right support, and plenty of Pokemon can handle it effectively, even the Steel-types in itself aren't straight up super-prone to it. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap on the other hand add an incompetetive aspect to the table, with a very limited amount of counterplay.
 

Martin

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Trapping isn’t inherently uncompetitive and it drives me insane that this is an actual narrative that exists. Stopping something switching out on its own achieves nothing if you can’t convert that into an advantage. In certain ways, having the option open to you makes the game *more* competitive, giving players more versatile options for punishing their opponent for misplaying (and beyond Magnezone’s standard pool of targets, it can provide an interesting option to counterplay stuff like Kartana or Excadrill if you spec it for those specific targets), but it ultimately depends on the options available to the trapper in question and how easily+consistently they can execute their game plan. This is part of why I’ve always been against sweeping bans on trapping abilities as opposed to Pokémon level bans on broken trappers (<— correct terminology), but that is neither here nor there.

The point is: Magnezone (and Alolan Golem+Magneton in older gens) are excellent examples of competitive and healthy trappers. So what, you have to choose between Helmet/Lefties and Shed Shell in builder (Shell is probably not worth it 95% of the time because Corv+Skarm are Knock Off magnets anyway), and if your team isn’t properly prepared for something beyond a trappable Steel-type then you will (rightfully) get blown up for it. This doesn’t make them unhealthy or uncompetitive, this just means you need to learn the matchup and keep their specific utility in mind when playing against them. Magnezone is not a particularly easy Pokémon to manoeuvre into position outside of cores with smth like Rillaboom, and when it does end up KOing its target, it is among the most exploitable Pokémon in the game following the resultant drop in tempo because ground+fire+fighting are utterly gross type weaknesses to have, creating free turns for Pokémon like Heatran, Urshifu-R, Zamazenta-C, Excadrill, Lando-T, Garchomp, etc. to capitalise on.
 
See, Zone IS not OP and no one can make a claim otherwise as well. It's not that Rillazone is unbeatable even if Corvi gets trapped. It's not that Zone can even trap these mons automatically without some positioning on it's user's part but it is reliably able to trap these 3 particular mons and a competent player will almost consistently trap these 3 whenever they face them.

All the counterplay arguments are similar to what been made to earlier trappers and the same thing applies here, that the interaction is entirely skewed in the Zone player's favour, the trapper, albeit with a MUCH smaller sample size.

Trapping in a game that's based on the very foundation of switching is definitely problematic. People are saying this is entitlement or a false narrative but this is a sentiment that is echoed throughout whenever trapping abilities are looked into. Having to either make dangerous plays, running multiple counters, or risking losing to being trapped is not a healthy component.

People are giving it's list of drawbacks and admittedly there are lot but they are all overshadowed by the fact that Zone is a trapper, not a regular mon. It's not a case of running a subpar mon and potentially not getting anything in return. It is able to do it's job almost a 100% of time. It doesn't matter if it even loses to all 5 mons because that one mons will still get trapped. Nobody can deny that Zone, a majority of times, gets the trap off. In a way it is actually a hyper consistent mon. Someone mentioned that trapping is only broken when the absence of the trapped mon can be exploited. The absence of these 3 steels in OU ARE highly exploitable. Once it gets it's trap off then it really isn't useful in most cases so you can either keep it as a sack or just let it faint to get a fresh switch in so those mons coming in isn't the end of the world.

It had a high 56% win rate despite a high usage of a total of 25 times in SPL. That is indicative of it's value. Despite having so many weakness it can just do it's job
extremely consistently.

One thing I will like to mention here that even King's Rock is being looked at. That is used by one non OU mon and is solely RNG. On the other hand Zone doesn't rely on luck and can trap almost every game it encounters it's targets. The former is solo cheese strat while the latter can support extremely effective builds that abuse the absence of the defensive pillars of the meta game. Not the exact same thing but even flinching is looked at while not trapping is something that is just weird to me.

TLDR; Zone may have a lot of weaknesses but they are overshadowed by it's hyper consistent ability to do what it's there for. It's counterplay is limited for the 3 steel types and is similar to what we have deemed unreasonable for other defensive mons against the other 2 trapping abilities. This reliable trapping is effectively abusable on effective team builds. Trapping is genuinely broken as even if the amount of mons to be trapped is less, the effective usage is same of removing particular roadblocks for your wall breakers.

This being said though, I am just giving my side of the argument as I see it. If the majority is not in favour of the ban then it would stay and I am not opposed to that but I just felt that people were giving it's weaknesses, it's apparent counterplay, calling it's trapping healthy which I wanted to give my thoughts on as it still does it's job despite all this. Spamming this with ban Zone arguments is not my intention.
 
On the subject of trapping, I want to talk about this mon:
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While I believe Dugtrio to be broken due to a combination of factors (Arena Trap and the atk and spd to abuse Arena Trap), I really do not think that Diglett is broken, and that it should eventually be retested. Unlike Dugtrio, Diglett lacks the necessary stats to really abuse Arena Trap. 55 atk VS 100 atk is a large enough margin where Adamant DIglett fails to OHKO mons it would like to trap, and 95 spd VS 120 spd is also a fairly large gap, so much so that Diglett's relatively mediocre spd tier leaves it outsped by mons it would want to trap. Because of these stat deficits, DIglett is more dependent on Focus Sash to actually do its job of trapping, but even with the prominence of Heavy-Duty Boots, hazards are still everywhere, further reducing Diglett's trapping capabilities. It should be noted that moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch are fairly common in the meta (Teleport. however, does not work against Arena Trap). This works both ways for Diglett, as on one hand mons that it would like to trap (e.g. Tapu Koko) can simply U-Turn out, but on the other hand Diglett is able to be pivoted in by these moves to trap a mon safely.

Looking at all the A tiered mons on the viability rankings thread, the only mons that Diglett can reliably trap are Heatran (needs to be pivoted in, as Magma Storm can blow through the sash), Magnezone, and Volcarona (assuming hazards are not set up, otherwise it just gets outsped by +1 Volcarona and dies). For what it is worth, Diglett cannot even beat Heatran and Magnezone if the ever-popular Rillaboom or the less-popular Tapu-Bulu has set up Grassy Surge. Unlike Dugtrio, which has the stats to function, Diglett would not be able to perform as a competent and reliable revenge-killer due to its mediocre spd tier as well as overall lack of power.

Overall, I disagree with the notion that Arena Trap as a whole is broken. Instead, I would argue that it is due to a combination of traits that makes Dugtrio overpowered for the OU tier, and because Diglett does not possess this same combination of traits, it would be far from overbearing in OU. The same argument could also be applied to Trapinch, though I am unfamiliar with its applications, so I will abstain from debating that myself. Essentially, while it is true that Diglett can prevent mons from switching out, the amount of mons that Diglett can actually reliably beat in the process is limited.

Here are calcs that prove the relevance of Diglett's stat deficiencies compared to Dugtrio.
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
While both can trap Heatran in regular conditions, if Grassy Terrain is present, only Dugtrio can reliably beat Heatran.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Diglett outspeeds Bisharp, Bisharp has Sucker Punch, so Diglett loses this matchup.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
With chip, Dugtrio can switch in and trap Slowking. Diglett cannot do the same.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-134 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dugtrio beats Toxapex, Diglett cannot. Plain and simple.

There are more instances of where the power difference is notable, specifically on how much easier and reliably Dugtrio can revenge kill mons than Diglett can.
 
The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.
So you say how magnet pull is fine not because of its sample size but "how it is forced to operate", but then talk about how it has to specialize and remove only a few threats, and that's kind of match-up fishing. I think you understand how it comes across when you say it's not the trapping pool, and then talk about how the trapping pool holds magnet pull back. Furthermore, you then talk about how magnezone's stats and movepool play into it being fair. Conveniently in your post you don't give shadow taggers and arena trappers the same treatment. Trapinch had to specialize to remove toad, had to be healthy to do it, and unlike magnezone can't switch directly into what it is trapping. The way you talk about how for the AV set magnezone needs to be healthy to even pull that off, trapinch literally has the exact same issue because of its speed stat and horrible bulk. You guys refuse to address the other more limited trappers honestly because they make your argument around keeping magnezone really weak.

I've personally given up on smogon's logical consistency because it has always struggled with it, and people don't particularly care if they are at the end of the day, but I think it makes smogon look horrible to pick and choose what it likes and doesn't like instead of having a logically consistent banlist.
 

TailGlowVM

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So you say how magnet pull is fine not because of its sample size but "how it is forced to operate", but then talk about how it has to specialize and remove only a few threats, and that's kind of match-up fishing. I think you understand how it comes across when you say it's not the trapping pool, and then talk about how the trapping pool holds magnet pull back. Furthermore, you then talk about how magnezone's stats and movepool play into it being fair. Conveniently in your post you don't give shadow taggers and arena trappers the same treatment. Trapinch had to specialize to remove toad, had to be healthy to do it, and unlike magnezone can't switch directly into what it is trapping. The way you talk about how for the AV set magnezone needs to be healthy to even pull that off, trapinch literally has the exact same issue because of its speed stat and horrible bulk. You guys refuse to address the other more limited trappers honestly because they make your argument around keeping magnezone really weak.

I've personally given up on smogon's logical consistency because it has always struggled with it, and people don't particularly care if they are at the end of the day, but I think it makes smogon look horrible to pick and choose what it likes and doesn't like instead of having a logically consistent banlist.
Dugtrio had to specialise to trap different threats using sets like Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Z-Crystals (in gen 7) and Focus Sash, and it couldn't directly switch in to most of the Pokemon it wanted to beat, so I don't see why that is different to Diglett and Trapinch.

On the subject of trapping, I want to talk about this mon:
View attachment 335495
While I believe Dugtrio to be broken due to a combination of factors (Arena Trap and the atk and spd to abuse Arena Trap), I really do not think that Diglett is broken, and that it should eventually be retested. Unlike Dugtrio, Diglett lacks the necessary stats to really abuse Arena Trap. 55 atk VS 100 atk is a large enough margin where Adamant DIglett fails to OHKO mons it would like to trap, and 95 spd VS 120 spd is also a fairly large gap, so much so that Diglett's relatively mediocre spd tier leaves it outsped by mons it would want to trap. Because of these stat deficits, DIglett is more dependent on Focus Sash to actually do its job of trapping, but even with the prominence of Heavy-Duty Boots, hazards are still everywhere, further reducing Diglett's trapping capabilities. It should be noted that moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch are fairly common in the meta (Teleport. however, does not work against Arena Trap). This works both ways for Diglett, as on one hand mons that it would like to trap (e.g. Tapu Koko) can simply U-Turn out, but on the other hand Diglett is able to be pivoted in by these moves to trap a mon safely.

Looking at all the A tiered mons on the viability rankings thread, the only mons that Diglett can reliably trap are Heatran (needs to be pivoted in, as Magma Storm can blow through the sash), Magnezone, and Volcarona (assuming hazards are not set up, otherwise it just gets outsped by +1 Volcarona and dies). For what it is worth, Diglett cannot even beat Heatran and Magnezone if the ever-popular Rillaboom or the less-popular Tapu-Bulu has set up Grassy Surge. Unlike Dugtrio, which has the stats to function, Diglett would not be able to perform as a competent and reliable revenge-killer due to its mediocre spd tier as well as overall lack of power.

Overall, I disagree with the notion that Arena Trap as a whole is broken. Instead, I would argue that it is due to a combination of traits that makes Dugtrio overpowered for the OU tier, and because Diglett does not possess this same combination of traits, it would be far from overbearing in OU. The same argument could also be applied to Trapinch, though I am unfamiliar with its applications, so I will abstain from debating that myself. Essentially, while it is true that Diglett can prevent mons from switching out, the amount of mons that Diglett can actually reliably beat in the process is limited.

Here are calcs that prove the relevance of Diglett's stat deficiencies compared to Dugtrio.
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
While both can trap Heatran in regular conditions, if Grassy Terrain is present, only Dugtrio can reliably beat Heatran.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Diglett outspeeds Bisharp, Bisharp has Sucker Punch, so Diglett loses this matchup.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
With chip, Dugtrio can switch in and trap Slowking. Diglett cannot do the same.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-134 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dugtrio beats Toxapex, Diglett cannot. Plain and simple.

There are more instances of where the power difference is notable, specifically on how much easier and reliably Dugtrio can revenge kill mons than Diglett can.
Try giving Diglett an item like Choice Band or Choice Scarf, which is what Dugtrio did. I think you'll find it traps more Dugtrio targets then if you calc it.
 
So you say how magnet pull is fine not because of its sample size but "how it is forced to operate", but then talk about how it has to specialize and remove only a few threats, and that's kind of match-up fishing. I think you understand how it comes across when you say it's not the trapping pool, and then talk about how the trapping pool holds magnet pull back. Furthermore, you then talk about how magnezone's stats and movepool play into it being fair. Conveniently in your post you don't give shadow taggers and arena trappers the same treatment. Trapinch had to specialize to remove toad, had to be healthy to do it, and unlike magnezone can't switch directly into what it is trapping. The way you talk about how for the AV set magnezone needs to be healthy to even pull that off, trapinch literally has the exact same issue because of its speed stat and horrible bulk. You guys refuse to address the other more limited trappers honestly because they make your argument around keeping magnezone really weak.

I've personally given up on smogon's logical consistency because it has always struggled with it, and people don't particularly care if they are at the end of the day, but I think it makes smogon look horrible to pick and choose what it likes and doesn't like instead of having a logically consistent banlist.
Dugtrio,trapinch and Digglet can't switch into the thing they want to trap but they don't need to,with the amount of pivot moves around their teammates can easily get them on the field to remove their targets you might say they are support reliant and thats true but the reward is huge for the Arena Trap User(The same goes for Shadow Tag) since they can trap almost any type except for Flying and Ghost Types.Magnet pull can be useful to remove certain steel types but thats basically the only thing it can trap unlike the other trapping ablilities
 

Finchinator

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Conceptually speaking, there is a very strong argument to ban Magnet Pull (not Magnezone necessarily). In practice, it falls off a bit, but I do find it hard to make a legitimate argument as to why it is allowed when certain other trapping things are banned.

I feel this issue stretches far further than OU and is more a general tiering philosophy one, so I have not brought it up here before, but I get the argument. I do not think Magnezone is outright broken necessarily, but I do think an argument for it being uncompetitive can be made. This is the same basis as other trapping abilities really: switching is a fundamental part of the game and limiting it can be overbearing. At the end, it is up to the community to decide if Magnet Pull is restrictive enough to act on — and so far, the sweeping consensus has been that it is not for a number of generations.
 
this is more of a question of do we ban all trapping or are we gonna look over it case by case and just ban what is op (so shadow tag and arena trap banned but not magnet pull) i personally am fine with trapping unless it becomes to overbearing, and the limiting ability of being magnazone and only trapping a few month makes it fine imo. but i understand why people might find trapping uncompetitive. and if we ban magnet pull we should probably just ban all forms of trapping (which im not a supporter of).
 
Dugtrio had to specialise to trap different threats using sets like Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Z-Crystals (in gen 7) and Focus Sash, and it couldn't directly switch in to most of the Pokemon it wanted to beat, so I don't see why that is different to Diglett and Trapinch.
EXACTLY! You are right on the money my man. And my point is exactly that. At least with the arena trappers you had to only predict one time, i.e. do I switch my tran in to this sweeper, or do I stay in to dodge the duggy? Magnezone is worse versus things like skarm and ferro because they lose to it even if it switches directly into them, so if I am playing against magnezone and have one of these mons, I have to predict zone coming in every turn I switch to ferro, and every turn have ferro on the field. I am trying to highlight the same obnoxious fifty-fifties that zone forces are not very different at all than the ones arena trappers could force. Which is why it can be even worse than something like a trapinch.

Dugtrio,trapinch and Digglet can't switch into the thing they want to trap but they don't need to,with the amount of pivot moves around their teammates can easily get them on the field to remove their targets you might say they are support reliant and thats true but the reward is huge for the Arena Trap User(The same goes for Shadow Tag) since they can trap almost any type except for Flying and Ghost Types.Magnet pull can be useful to remove certain steel types but thats basically the only thing it can trap unlike the other trapping ablilities
Remember that we have to talk about what it can effectively trap, not just what it technically does. Trapinch can only come in on a very limited number of pokemon due to its speed and horrible bulk, even if its ability says it traps everything that is grounded. So I can literally say the same thing you did for zone for trapinch: Trapinch can be useful for removing certain ground weak walls, like toxapex or heatran but that's basically it because it gets ohko'd and outsped by almost everything.

As JoJonaseh says, we have to either look at each trapper on its own or say trapping as a whole is uncompetitive. Either option is honestly okay with me but I just want it to be consistent so we can truly say we make tiering decisions objectively. Personally, I would say wobbuffet and diglet may deserve a suspect, and trapinch, gothita and wynaut definitely would in the scenario where magnet pull is kept. I say deserve because they weren't given a fair shake in OU with previous tiering decisions if we decide trapping as a whole is not uncompetitive.

At the end, it is up to the community to decide if Magnet Pull is restrictive enough to act on — and so far, the sweeping consensus has been that it is not for a number of generations.
If it is how restricting the trapping is, it isn't trapping, it is the mon. I appreciate the understanding of my argument, but acting on it shouldn't decide on whether magnet pull is restricting enough because the point of a magnet pull ban would be to keep logical consistency, not because it is broken. If we are concerned about the restrictiveness of the trappers rather than trapping as a mechanic, then we should look at each of them, not the abilities.
 

Finchinator

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If it is how restricting the trapping is, it isn't trapping, it is the mon. I appreciate the understanding of my argument, but acting on it shouldn't decide on whether magnet pull is restricting enough because the point of a magnet pull ban would be to keep logical consistency, not because it is broken. If we are concerned about the restrictiveness of the trappers rather than trapping as a mechanic, then we should look at each of them, not the abilities.
We have Arena Trap and Shadow Tag banned despite never going through a period this generation where the NFE Pokemon were allowed. We would stay consistent and tackle the ability here surely (if we were to act on anything -- which is far more a thought experiment than a reality right now).
 
The idea of banning trapping is kind of ridiculous imo. Yeah, switching is a ‘fundamental’ part of the game, but so are status moves, and I don’t see anyone arguing Taunt should be banned because it blocks them. Abilities are also a ‘fundamental’ part of the game, so should we ban Neutralising Gas because it makes them useless? Switching and trapping have both been around since Gen 1, so it isn’t as if one is ‘fundamental’ and the other isn’t. The main reason Arena Trap and Shadow Tag were banned was because they made crap like Diglett usable in OU, like how Moody makes Octillery viable. The point is that even though Arena Trap and Shadow Tag users might have to specialise to remove specific targets, they have many more options than Magnezone because they have the ability to trap so many more mons, whereas Magnezone can only trap a few. It’s this kind of flexibility, coupled with the fact that even switching an Arena Trap or Shadow Tag mon in against something that they can’t beat prevents the opponent from double switching, that makes these abilities so much better than Magnet Pull. Arena Trap traps everything EXCEPT Flying-types and Levitate, Shadow Tag traps everything EXCEPT Ghosts, but Magnet Pull only traps a mon IF it’s a Steel. Magnet Pull isn’t broken, and it traps so few mons that it isn’t uncompetitive, because the skill lies in not getting trapped in the first place. It doesn’t even warp teambuilding, Skarm, Corv and Ferro are all great picks even though they get destroyed by Magnezone. If people really want to start banning every way of trapping for ‘consistency’, then we’d better ban Whirlpool and Fire Spin too, even though they‘re crap. It’s stupid because trapping isn’t RNG based like evasion or something, so we don’t need to be ‘consistent’. Just ban the stuff that’s broken and don’t ban the stuff the isn’t.
 
:diglett::trapinch:

I agree that Arena Trap is the correctly banned element making these two mons broken, but I don't know how you can present the logic that Magnezone is objectively worse for only being able to trap three Pokemon. In practice, these two only trap three mons reliably- tran, pex and ttar (if that counts as relevant). diglett especially can struggle to find enough power to muscle past pex. I understand that it has added utility of trapping low health mons, but in most games your trapper will be saved for a single target in order to ensure consistency.

tl;dr how can you say that trappers that trap the same amount or fewer pokemon in practice than magnezone deserve to be banned while zone doesn't simply because it has a small number of targets?

Also comparing trapping moves like mean look/ fire spin/ whirlpool isn't really relevant. Intrepid sword is one of the best abilities in the game, but howl is a terrible move even though they have the same effect. The opportunity cost of the moveslot and a turn to set it up make it a completely different scenario that allows counterplay besides shed shell. No player with adequate metagame knowledge will allow their mons to be trapped by anything besides heatran, and heatran is very clearly a combination of many good traits and is not solely good due to magma storm.
 
We have Arena Trap and Shadow Tag banned despite never going through a period this generation where the NFE Pokemon were allowed. We would stay consistent and tackle the ability here surely (if we were to act on anything -- which is far more a thought experiment than a reality right now).
What I am trying to say is there are two avenues:

1. We decide trapping isn't uncompetitive as a whole, and magnet pull is allowed. In this case, we must go and retest trappers that have a chance of being balanced if we want to stay consistent, it is the scope and other attributes of the trappers, not trapping as a whole that is broken. Largely the reason trappers like trapinch, gothita, wobbuffet and wynaut were banned was because trapping is uncompetitive, not just the fact that the other trappers (dugtrio, diglet, gothitelle, gothirita) were broken.

2. We decide trapping is uncompetitive. Here magnet pull is banned, because it is the abilities that are enabling trapping that are uncompetitive, not the trappers themselves.

The idea of banning trapping is kind of ridiculous imo. Yeah, switching is a ‘fundamental’ part of the game, but so are status moves, and I don’t see anyone arguing Taunt should be banned because it blocks them. Abilities are also a ‘fundamental’ part of the game, so should we ban Neutralising Gas because it makes them useless? Switching and trapping have both been around since Gen 1, so it isn’t as if one is ‘fundamental’ and the other isn’t. The main reason Arena Trap and Shadow Tag were banned was because they made crap like Diglett usable in OU, like how Moody makes Octillery viable. The point is that even though Arena Trap and Shadow Tag users might have to specialise to remove specific targets, they have many more options than Magnezone because they have the ability to trap so many more mons, whereas Magnezone can only trap a few. It’s this kind of flexibility, coupled with the fact that even switching an Arena Trap or Shadow Tag mon in against something that they can’t beat prevents the opponent from double switching, that makes these abilities so much better than Magnet Pull. Arena Trap traps everything EXCEPT Flying-types and Levitate, Shadow Tag traps everything EXCEPT Ghosts, but Magnet Pull only traps a mon IF it’s a Steel. Magnet Pull isn’t broken, and it traps so few mons that it isn’t uncompetitive, because the skill lies in not getting trapped in the first place. It doesn’t even warp teambuilding, Skarm, Corv and Ferro are all great picks even though they get destroyed by Magnezone. If people really want to start banning every way of trapping for ‘consistency’, then we’d better ban Whirlpool and Fire Spin too, even though they‘re crap. It’s stupid because trapping isn’t RNG based like evasion or something, so we don’t need to be ‘consistent’. Just ban the stuff that’s broken and don’t ban the stuff the isn’t.
In my personal opinion, trapping has the same problem in singles as things like dynamax. Where if you are a wall facing down an offensive mon, the burden of prediction becomes so ridiculous you are just guessing, and if you guess wrong, you lose on the spot. Take the example of a choice locked darm-g, the toxapex can eat up the icicle crash but dies to max quake, now as the pex player I have to predict if he will max and break choice lock and or switch or stay in and crash again if I fear the max quake. If the pex player predicts wrong and loses pex, darm can clean up because its wall is removed, or icicle crash gets a free kill.

In the magnezone scenario, I have to guess if his sweeper will attack, in which case I go skarm, or if he doubles into magnezone, in which case I can't go skarm. If the skarm player guesses wrong, he probably loses a mon. Even worse, anytime skarm goes for a move I have to do the same thing, do I spike or roost on this pokemon, or do I predict the double to magnezone? I guess it's technically prediction, but if we are all being honest this is all just guessing on the part of both my opponent and me in this scenario.

Edit: The part about the scope of arena trap and shadow tag have been address a hundred times already, even by the guy who just posted above me, so once again, trapinch isn't ever trapping everything that is grounded, even if its ability says it does.
 

TailGlowVM

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EXACTLY! You are right on the money my man. And my point is exactly that. At least with the arena trappers you had to only predict one time, i.e. do I switch my tran in to this sweeper, or do I stay in to dodge the duggy? Magnezone is worse versus things like skarm and ferro because they lose to it even if it switches directly into them, so if I am playing against magnezone and have one of these mons, I have to predict zone coming in every turn I switch to ferro, and every turn have ferro on the field. I am trying to highlight the same obnoxious fifty-fifties that zone forces are not very different at all than the ones arena trappers could force. Which is why it can be even worse than something like a trapinch.
Magnezone can't adapt in the same way Dugtrio could because its movepool is so barren: you can run Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Iron Defense + Body Press, or maybe Substitute + 3 attacks similar to generation 7. Between them, they have four attacking moves that can actually trap the relevant Steel-types: Thunderbolt, Body Press, Rising Voltage (which mandates Tapu Koko but was occasionally used to deal with Magearna and with a Choice Scarf outspeeds and does decent damage to Heatran), and Volt Switch to chip down Steels when Magnezone can't yet KO them. You could argue for Assault Vest Mirror Coat, I suppose, too. In contrast, let's see what attacks Dugtrio can use:

Earthquake: main STAB move. I don't consider it different enough to justify another place, but High Horsepower is not weakened by Grassy Terrain, unlike Earthquake.
Stone Edge: does decent damage to some Flying-types that are immune to Earthquake.
Sucker Punch: can pick off a weakened Dragapult that thinks it outspeeds and KOs.
Sludge Wave: A bit niche, but if Tapu Bulu, a would-be counter, has taken a small bit of chip damage, Dugtrio can KO it.
Beat Up: Can somewhat make up for Dugtrio's horrible Attack by using its teammates' attack stats, helping against Psychic and Ghost-types.
Reversal: Beats Blissey if at low enough HP.

While Magnezone has only two types of usable attacks to help with Steel-types, Dugtrio has at least five different ones. Trapinch has Giga Drain to help with Seismitoad in the Dracovish meta, First Impression to revenge kill anything weakened without priority, and it beats Ferrothorn and Chansey with access to Superpower.

Also, let's see what Magnezone does in a matchup where there is nothing for it to trap: with Iron Defense you can do a bit of chip, spread Toxic or paralysis, maybe check Tapu Koko. Choice Specs hits hard but is easy to wall once locked into a move and super slow. On the other hand, Dugtrio can set Stealth Rock, and Memento cripples just about anything for a teammate to get a free switch and set up, so it will almost never be pure deadweight in a battle.
 

Monky25

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I was a bit hesitant to post my thoughts in this thread but screw it why not. Like others have said, I do not believe Magnezone/ Magnet Pull should be banned. First, someone made a great point that in the 10 years since BW that we've had zone, it hasn't been shown to be problematic, especially during times where it had stuff like HP Fire making it a better trapper than it is now, so idk it might just be me but if this mechanic is really "that broken" I think it would've been tackled earlier. But anyway that's besides the main point. The big idea comes down to this: near universal trapping versus specific ones. We don't need to follow any consistency since these 2 are vastly different. The reason Arena Trap was banned was because dugtrio had a wider range of targets to trap and invalidated any Pokemon that was slower and could be trapped by it. Its the reason we saw toxtricity, a Pokemon that destroyed the common core of corv/clef/toad/rotom heat/ at the time, fall to UU. Zone traps 3 pokemon reliably with its main set, being skarm, corv, and ferro. It doesn't warp teambuilding and hasn't invalidated any of them, with all being amazing picks in the OU meta with even 2 of them being A+ on the viability rankings. On the other hand, something like dugtrio had PLENTY of targets to choose from, including but not limited to terrakion, toxapex, tyranitar, excadrill, cinderace, toxtricity, melmetal, bisharp, jirachi, clefable, kyurem, and cinderace. This is quite literally 4 TIMES the amount of stuff zone traps and could remove. The big thing is this- the reason dugtrio was a problem and zone isn't is that duggy can trap nearly everything and remove it, while also causing the stuff it could trap to significantly drop in usage and even drop to a lower tier. Zone doesn't do that, it doesn't restrict building and only traps a select few Pokemon. I'd argue zone is a healthy presence in fact, it adds a bit of strategy so I cant just blindly through out skarm onto rilla and have to play smart with it so i dont risk getting trapped.

It really comes down to this idea- do we want to ban trapping as a whole or look at it down to the specifics since its very different. Duggy restricted teambuilding to mons that didn't get affected by it trapping and could trap a wider range of targets. Zone can only trap 3 Pokemon reliably with its iron defense set, with corv having the ability to speed creep and not be compromised as a wall as much, not to mention it doesn't restrict teambuilding to where anything that gets trapped by it gets seldom use. There was a reason zone fell to RU from UU, its near useless if it cant trap anything due to the limited range of its targets. Zone trapping 3 pokemon doesn't make it uncompetitive, we need to stop looking at consistency and look at zone in a vacuum. If your line of defense solely skarm or corv to keep your team being 6-0d by rillaboom, I hate to say it but you've built a shitty team and the problem is you not zone. Its also quite hard to use zone due to its weakness against common types like ground, fighting, and fire while having low speed. Yeah you can argue dugtrio is frail, but equipped with a choice band its more than enough to trap and remove some key Pokemon. Zone also ends up being deadweight at times in matchups without the steels it traps while duggy could almost always put in work due to all the different things it could trap. All in all magnet pull isnt a problem. The big issue with dugtrio was not how it could trap and remove things, but it was HOW MUCH OF THE META IT COULD TRAP AND REMOVE. It trapped far more things than zone ever will and invalidated pokemon. zone doesn't restrict teambuilding, zone doesn't invalidate anything, zone barely traps shit, in my eyes and the eyes of many other players zone/magnet pull isn't uncompetitive
 
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Zneon

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To give my own personal thoughts on the discussion, while you can definitely make the argument that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive / unhealthy I personally don't see it. But I want to say first of all that, trapping as a whole really isn't uncompetitive in my opinion. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are because they are abilities that take trapping to an extreme, Magnet Pull doesn't.

Magnezone is really the only viable Pokemon with this ability and it has a lot of issues that make it more matchup fishy than anything else I feel. Magnet Pull only affects Steel-types and Magnezone cannot really trap all of them, which is what it's supposed to do. It can trap a pretty solid amount of Steel-types but not only can it trap those and literally nothing else, it's really only effective at trapping a certain pool of them, Skarmory and Corviknight are obviously examples, Ferrothorn if it's ID + Body Press but stuff like Heatran or Bisharp can easily beat it and prevent it from trapping them, which is where it's niche lies. There are a few reasons, but the main ones are the fact that it is extremely slow and only has a few moves to work with, which really hurts in its ability to trap more than a few Steel-types and do it consistently give how linear of a Pokemon Magnezone really is.

Let's compare this to Arena Trap and Shadow Tag and the two noteworthy abusers of them, Dugtrio and Gothitelle. Arena Trap traps such a huge portion of Pokemon outside of Levitators and Ghost-types and Dugtrio has the Speed tier to abuse its ability to an impressive extent. However the main problem here is of course the ability for trapping such a huge portion of Pokemon in the first place means that can trap as many Pokemon as it really needed to.

Shadow Tag is even worse, literally only being prevented by Ghost-types and fucking Shed Shell. Gothitelle being able to trap literally anything outside of those two really means that its job would never end. Magnet Pull isn't like this, only trapping Steel-types and the fact that Magnezone can only trap a small portion of them because of its issues makes me convinced that Magnet Pull isn't unhealthy. As a trapper Magnezone is really just ok which is pretty underwhelming given how outside of being a trapper it isn't all that good. While Gothitelle and Dugtrio can trap multiple Pokemon at a time, Magnezone being able to trap a grand total of 3 or 4 Pokemon.
 
Magnezone can't adapt in the same way Dugtrio could because its movepool is so barren: you can run Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Iron Defense + Body Press, or maybe Substitute + 3 attacks similar to generation 7. Between them, they have four attacking moves that can actually trap the relevant Steel-types: Thunderbolt, Body Press, Rising Voltage (which mandates Tapu Koko but was occasionally used to deal with Magearna and with a Choice Scarf outspeeds and does decent damage to Heatran), and Volt Switch to chip down Steels when Magnezone can't yet KO them. You could argue for Assault Vest Mirror Coat, I suppose, too. In contrast, let's see what attacks Dugtrio can use:

Earthquake: main STAB move. I don't consider it different enough to justify another place, but High Horsepower is not weakened by Grassy Terrain, unlike Earthquake.
Stone Edge: does decent damage to some Flying-types that are immune to Earthquake.
Sucker Punch: can pick off a weakened Dragapult that thinks it outspeeds and KOs.
Sludge Wave: A bit niche, but if Tapu Bulu, a would-be counter, has taken a small bit of chip damage, Dugtrio can KO it.
Beat Up: Can somewhat make up for Dugtrio's horrible Attack by using its teammates' attack stats, helping against Psychic and Ghost-types.
Reversal: Beats Blissey if at low enough HP.

While Magnezone has only two types of usable attacks to help with Steel-types, Dugtrio has at least five different ones. Trapinch has Giga Drain to help with Seismitoad in the Dracovish meta, First Impression to revenge kill anything weakened without priority, and it beats Ferrothorn and Chansey with access to Superpower.

Also, let's see what Magnezone does in a matchup where there is nothing for it to trap: with Iron Defense you can do a bit of chip, spread Toxic or paralysis, maybe check Tapu Koko. Choice Specs hits hard but is easy to wall once locked into a move and super slow. On the other hand, Dugtrio can set Stealth Rock, and Memento cripples just about anything for a teammate to get a free switch and set up, so it will almost never be pure deadweight in a battle.
Nobody is asking for duggy to get unbanned, we are talking about other trappers being suspected if trapping as a whole isn't uncompetitive. If we are seriously pretending that trapinch is gonna be better in a match-up where its trapping isn't useful than magnezone, I don't know how we can have an honest conversation about tiering consistancy.


I was a bit hesitant to post my thoughts in this thread but screw it why not. Like others have said, I do not believe Magnezone/ Magnet Pull should be banned. First, someone made a great point that in the 10 years since BW that we've had zone, it hasn't been shown to be problematic, especially during times where it had stuff like HP Fire making it a better trapper than it is now, so idk it might just be me but if this mechanic is really "that broken" I think it would've been tackled earlier. But anyway that's besides the main point. The big idea comes down to this: near universal trapping versus specific ones. We don't need to follow any consistency since these 2 are vastly different. The reason Arena Trap was banned was because dugtrio had a wider range of targets to trap and invalidated any Pokemon that was slower and could be trapped by it. Its the reason we saw toxtricity, a Pokemon that destroyed the common core of corv/clef/toad/rotom heat/ at the time, fall to UU. Zone traps 3 pokemon reliably with its main set, being skarm, corv, and ferro. It doesn't warp teambuilding and hasn't invalidated any of them, with all being amazing picks in the OU meta with even 2 of them being A+ on the viability rankings. On the other hand, something like dugtrio had PLENTY of targets to choose from, including but not limited to terrakion, toxapex, tyranitar, excadrill, cinderace, toxtricity, melmetal, bisharp, jirachi, clefable, kyurem, and cinderace. This is quite literally 4 TIMES the amount of stuff zone traps and could remove. The big thing is this- the reason dugtrio was a problem and zone isn't is that duggy can trap nearly everything and remove it, while also causing the stuff it could trap to significantly drop in usage and even drop to a lower tier. Zone doesn't do that, it doesn't restrict building and only traps a select few Pokemon. I'd argue zone is a healthy presence in fact, it adds a bit of strategy so I cant just blindly through out skarm onto rilla and have to play smart with it so i dont risk getting trapped.

It really comes down to this idea- do we want to ban trapping as a whole or look at it down to the specifics since its very different. Duggy restricted teambuilding to mons that didn't get affected by it trapping and could trap a wider range of targets. Zone can only trap 3 Pokemon reliably with its iron defense set, with corv having the ability to speed creep and not be compromised as a wall as much, not to mention it doesn't restrict teambuilding to where anything that gets trapped by it gets seldom use. There was a reason zone fell to RU from UU, its near useless if it cant trap anything due to the limited range of its targets. Zone trapping 3 pokemon doesn't make it uncompetitive, we need to stop looking at consistency and look at zone in a vacuum. If your line of defense solely skarm or corv to keep your team being 6-0d by rillaboom, I hate to say it but you've built a shitty team and the problem is you not zone. Its also quite hard to use zone due to its weakness against common types like ground, fighting, and fire while having low speed. Yeah you can argue dugtrio is frail, but equipped with a choice band its more than enough to trap and remove some key Pokemon. Zone also ends up being deadweight at times in matchups without the steels it traps while duggy could almost always put in work due to all the different things it could trap. All in all magnet pull isnt a problem. The big issue with dugtrio was not how it could trap and remove things, but it was HOW MUCH OF THE META IT COULD TRAP AND REMOVE. It trapped far more things than zone ever will and invalidated pokemon. zone doesn't restrict teambuilding, zone doesn't invalidate anything, zone barely traps shit, in my eyes and the eyes of many other players zone/magnet pull isn't broken.
Once again, nobody is galking about unbanning duggy, or goth, they were absolutely overbearing. If we are concerned about scope of trapping, and not trapping as a whole, we should look at mons like trapinch, who are incredible limited on what they can actually trap and kill with their stats and movepool.


To give my own personal thoughts on the discussion, while you can definitely make the argument that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive / unhealthy I personally don't see it. But I want to say first of all that, trapping as a whole really isn't uncompetitive in my opinion. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are because they are abilities that take trapping to an extreme, Magnet Pull doesn't.

Magnezone is really the only viable Pokemon with this ability and it has a lot of issues that make it more matchup fishy than anything else I feel. Magnet Pull only affects Steel-types and Magnezone cannot really trap all of them, which is what it's supposed to do. It can trap a pretty solid amount of Steel-types but not only can it trap those and literally nothing else, it's really only effective at trapping a certain pool of them, Skarmory and Corviknight are obviously examples, Ferrothorn if it's ID + Body Press but stuff like Heatran or Bisharp can easily beat it and prevent it from trapping them, which is where it's niche lies. There are a few reasons, but the main ones are the fact that it is extremely slow and only has a few moves to work with, which really hurts in its ability to trap more than a few Steel-types and do it consistently give how linear of a Pokemon Magnezone really is.

Let's compare this to Arena Trap and Shadow Tag and the two noteworthy abusers of them, Dugtrio and Gothitelle. Arena Trap traps such a huge portion of Pokemon outside of Levitators and Ghost-types and Dugtrio has the Speed tier to abuse its ability to an impressive extent. However the main problem here is of course the ability for trapping such a huge portion of Pokemon in the first place means that can trap as many Pokemon as it really needed to.

Shadow Tag is even worse, literally only being prevented by Ghost-types and fucking Shed Shell. Gothitelle being able to trap literally anything outside of those two really means that its job would never end. Magnet Pull isn't like this, only trapping Steel-types and the fact that Magnezone can only trap a small portion of them because of its issues makes me convinced that Magnet Pull isn't unhealthy. As a trapper Magnezone is really just ok which is pretty underwhelming given how outside of being a trapper it isn't all that good. While Gothitelle and Dugtrio can trap multiple Pokemon at a time, Magnezone being able to trap a grand total of 3 or 4 Pokemon.
Once again, I think you guys are completely missing the point we are trying to make. Nobody is saying zone is equivalent to goth or duggy at all. But you could definitely make a fair comparison to something like trapinch which is very limited in what it can effectively trap. You even say in your post the two noteworthy abusers because the other ones aren't nearly as good or versatile.

Here is a problem with many of the pro-magnet pull arguments:
You guys talk about how even though zone traps all steels, it is really just 3 technically 4, which I totally agree with. But then you guys say:
Arena trap is a problem because it traps every grounded mon. Does trapinch really trap and kill every grounded mon? No, it doesn't but you guys don't give the same treatment to things like trapinch that you do zone, because people like zone.
 
I don’t think the current status quo makes much sense. If trapping isn’t uncompetitive across the board then I unironically think Wynaut, Gothita and Diglett should be suspected. It’s pure theorymon to say something like Gothita (BST 290) is broken with ST. I firmly believe that if Trapping abilities are deemed to not be uncompetitive on their face then every mon needs to be evaluated individually. (Or just ban magnet pull :psycry:)
 
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Arena trap is a problem because it traps every grounded mon. Does trapinch really trap and kill every grounded mon? No, it doesn't but you guys don't give the same treatment to things like trapinch that you do zone, because people like zone.
I agree that diglett and trapinch should be unbanned and then suspected, banning the ability is not the right choice.

This reminds me when the move baton pass has been completely banned, the poor shedinja became quite useless (it had a niche in stall teams as baton pass pivot before).
 
Nobody is asking for duggy to get unbanned, we are talking about other trappers being suspected if trapping as a whole isn't uncompetitive. If we are seriously pretending that trapinch is gonna be better in a match-up where its trapping isn't useful than magnezone, I don't know how we can have an honest conversation about tiering consistancy.




Once again, nobody is galking about unbanning duggy, or goth, they were absolutely overbearing. If we are concerned about scope of trapping, and not trapping as a whole, we should look at mons like trapinch, who are incredible limited on what they can actually trap and kill with their stats and movepool.




Once again, I think you guys are completely missing the point we are trying to make. Nobody is saying zone is equivalent to goth or duggy at all. But you could definitely make a fair comparison to something like trapinch which is very limited in what it can effectively trap. You even say in your post the two noteworthy abusers because the other ones aren't nearly as good or versatile.

Here is a problem with many of the pro-magnet pull arguments:
You guys talk about how even though zone traps all steels, it is really just 3 technically 4, which I totally agree with. But then you guys say:
Arena trap is a problem because it traps every grounded mon. Does trapinch really trap and kill every grounded mon? No, it doesn't but you guys don't give the same treatment to things like trapinch that you do zone, because people like zone.
In order to test Trapinch in OU we have to unban Arena Trap and if you unban the ability Dugtrio runs rampant.And no a complex ban wouldn't solve anything
 

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