Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Throwing the blanket term of "trapping being uncompetitive" was a mistake on Smogon's end and a lot of players that pushed for those bans (probably myself included) when it was specific mons with specific traits that had a better argument for being broken than "uncompetitive". Dugtrio was broken, Gothitelle was broken and would still be in current OU. That term is thrown around too loosely for stuff that can be accounted for in the builder and a lot of that is Smogon tiering and mentality being blindly followed to blame. Magnezone is a response to fat Corviknight/Ferro shit that plagued the builder before, I mean Corvi still used with Mag around lol, and eventually is going to get worse when people realize Volcarona is very good and it starts getting spammed more. The reason why the whole trapping is uncompetitive argument is dumb is because you would look nuts putting in a magnemite on your team expecting it remove things at the level Magnezone can do. You have better arguments for trapping mons when you look at individual mons not all forms of trapping/trappers are effective, at that point you would be examining whether it's broken.

I think the whole switching is fundamental to the game thing is kind of silly too and that's another catch phrase people love using to support banning every trap mechanic but by this logic you would be banning moves like mean look, block, whirlpool, and a lot of other stuff that is niche and not even an issue in most cases.
 
Throwing the blanket term of "trapping being uncompetitive" was a mistake on Smogon's end and a lot of players that pushed for those bans (probably myself included) when it was specific mons with specific traits that had a better argument for being broken than "uncompetitive". Dugtrio was broken, Gothitelle was broken and would still be in current OU. That term is thrown around too loosely for stuff that can be accounted for in the builder and a lot of that is Smogon tiering and mentality being blindly followed to blame. Magnezone is a response to fat Corviknight/Ferro shit that plagued the builder before, I mean Corvi still used with Mag around lol, and eventually is going to get worse when people realize Volcarona is very good and it starts getting spammed more. The reason why the whole trapping is uncompetitive argument is dumb is because you would look nuts putting in a magnemite on your team expecting it remove things at the level Magnezone can do. You have better arguments for trapping mons when you look at individual mons not all forms of trapping/trappers are effective, at that point you would be examining whether it's broken.

I think the whole switching is fundamental to the game thing is kind of silly too and that's another catch phrase people love using to support banning every trap mechanic but by this logic you would be banning moves like mean look, block, whirlpool, and a lot of other stuff that is niche and not even an issue in most cases.
I agree with the trapping mindset setting discourse among players. Personally, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were broken because you had to play in a specific way and be mindful as to what you sack and anticipate your doubles (Goth/Shadow Tag was way worse due to the mindless PP stalling with Charm+ Fake Tears bs smh lol). With Duggy/Arena Trap, if you got your kill with a wincon, Duggy comes in and can just punish you right back. I remember there was a time where in SM OU, Diglett and Trapinch were putting in work cuz of Arena Trap, and that exposed how really good the ability was.

I think trapping is beneficial for easing teambuilding but it can be a double edge sword depending what is abusing what. Mons with great stats and mindless moves that associate with the ability is what magnifies such bans.
 

Monky25

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I don't know if its just me but it seems the main argument around banning magnet pull isn't how zone warps teambuilding or invalidates Pokemon, but that since we banned Arena Trap and Shadow tag we have to ban it, which in my opinion is a really bad way of going about this. Its like comparing apples to oranges- yeah they're both fruit/trapping abilities but outside of that they are vastly different in how they perform in game. Forget all that shit about "switching is fundamental", the reason those 2 were banned was because they put a heavily restriction on teambuilding and warped the meta around them due to their wide range of targets to trap and various utility options. They made it so the pokemon who got trapped by them were not used as much and even invalidated Pokemon like toxtricity in the case of dugtrio earlier in the gen. Don't even argue about it being solely duggy and gothitelle since shit like diglett (shown in the gen 7 test) and presumably gothorita and wobbufett were also unhealthy, so it made sense to get rid of the ability. When I look at removing zone, I fail to see how it makes the meta better. It doesn't warp teambuilding to where anything it traps is unviable, it doesn't trap shit and the stuff it DOES trap are still extremely good in the meta with 2 of them being A+ on the VR. I genuinely don't see how magnet pull/zone is banworthy without resorting to the bullshit "consistency" argument considering this situation is vastly different from the other 2. All in all, arena trap/shadow tag wasn't banned because it removed switching, but because many saw it as warping in the teambuilder and overall creating an unhealthy meta where you don't use anything trapped by them. Zone/magnet pull doesn't do that- it doesn't warp the builder, it doesn't overcentralize the meta, and it doesn't invalidate anything. Don't use the bans of arena trap/shadow tag to justify banning magnet pull when they are completely different scenarios.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
I disagree on both of these counts. Magnezone sets can be optimized to ensure it's not deadweight against teams without its trap targets. Clefable, Toxapex, the Slow twins, etc., are easy targets. It also isn't as reliable a trapper as you state. Only Skarmory and Corviknight are reliably trapped and removed by both sets and even then both can threaten a Magnezone that hard switches in if it's not at high health with BP. It is still a competent, if underwhelming, choice outside of trapping, and games with trapping mind games are subject to player skill.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
This is false. There's a reason that the Specs set is still used and even considered good by many people despite the fact that, as shown many times in this thread, it's the worst set at trapping the many steel types in the tier: Specs Zone is the set with the most offensive presence, especially if you opt to use Analytic instead of Magnet Pull (underrated set btw).
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I don't know if its just me but it seems the main argument around banning magnet pull isn't how zone warps teambuilding or invalidates Pokemon, but that since we banned Arena Trap and Shadow tag we have to ban it, which in my opinion is a really bad way of going about this. Its like comparing apples to oranges- yeah they're both fruit/trapping abilities but outside of that they are vastly different in how they perform in game. Forget all that shit about "switching is fundamental", the reason those 2 were banned was because they put a heavily restriction on teambuilding and warped the meta around them due to their wide range of targets to trap and various utility options. They made it so the pokemon who got trapped by them were not used as much and even invalidated Pokemon like toxtricity in the case of dugtrio earlier in the gen. Don't even argue about it being solely duggy and gothitelle since shit like diglett (shown in the gen 7 test) and presumably gothorita and wobbufett were also unhealthy, so it made sense to get rid of the ability. When I look at removing zone, I fail to see how it makes the meta better. It doesn't warp teambuilding to where anything it traps is unviable, it doesn't trap shit and the stuff it DOES trap are still extremely good in the meta with 2 of them being A+ on the VR. I genuinely don't see how magnet pull/zone is banworthy without resorting to the bullshit "consistency" argument considering this situation is vastly different from the other 2. All in all, arena trap/shadow tag wasn't banned because it removed switching, but because many saw it as warping in the teambuilder and overall creating an unhealthy meta where you don't use anything trapped by them. Zone/magnet pull doesn't do that- it doesn't warp the builder, it doesn't overcentralize the meta, and it doesn't invalidate anything. Don't use the bans of arena trap/shadow tag to justify banning magnet pull when they are completely different scenarios.
When building teams, neither Magnezone nor magnet pull warps the game, that much I can agree with but when the time comes where Magnezone faces off against a team that has its targets, it forces the target player to make risky moves on how they play their cards otherwise they just outright lose to Magnezone's teammates. In my experience with shadow tag and arena trap from the time I played in non smogon rules, both of them have the same effect, which is in battle, you have to make a lot of risky moves or you lose to their teammates. Magnet pull does the same as Ferrothorn and metal birds are huge defensive pillars that are capable of staving off a lot of the metagame or at the very least, give you breathing room to play against the offensive threats

In regards to magnet pull's victims being A+ on the vr, that is simply a testament to how good a pokemon is. Even if the face of their own natural predators, truly good pokemon will find a way to thrive. Another good example of this is how Rillaboom is a threat despite the fact that it lives in the same environment as Tornadus and Corviknight, two of its own natural predators. However, this does not change the fact that like with arena trap and shadow tag, you have to make extremely risky moves with your metal birds or you lose then and there to threats they're supposed to handle like Garchomp or Kartana and the aformentioned Rilla

Well, take that up with the council. They were the ones that said switching is a fundamental part and that is why they decided to suspect arena trap in the first place. I just made this case based on their own wordings

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't smogon's goal to create a metagame where skill is the main deciding factor of who wins a battle? If that is the case, I'll ask this, does winning by trapping a certain target and having your mons go brr a reflection of skill? As far as I can tell, this doesn't allow the opponent to make a counter play because they are prevented from making one in the first place due to trapping
 

IPF

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Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't smogon's goal to create a metagame where skill is the main deciding factor of who wins a battle? If that is the case, I'll ask this, does winning by trapping a certain target and having your mons go brr a reflection of skill? As far as I can tell, this doesn't allow the opponent to make a counter play because they are prevented from making one in the first place due to trapping
By this logic, there wouldn't be winning and losing matchups, and hax as a whole should be banned. Mons is mons, the best player doesn't always win, it's a combination of being consistent in the builder, forming good gameplans and the absence of bad luck that makes someone great at this game.

To avoid a one liner, I think talk of Zone being broken is honestly dumb, but comparing it to the likes of Dugtrio and Gothitelle is beyond stupid. One can only trap steels, not even consistently at times, while the others can basically remove any mon and forces the opponent into awkward sequences to avoid having their mon revenge killed. AM was right with the point about blanket terms, go read the reasoning for the banning of Shadow Tag and Arena Trap before chucking those buzzwords around.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
By this logic, there wouldn't be winning and losing matchups, and hax as a whole should be banned. Mons is mons, the best player doesn't always win, it's a combination of being consistent in the builder, forming good gameplans and the absence of bad luck that makes someone great at this game.

To avoid a one liner, I think talk of Zone being broken is honestly dumb, but comparing it to the likes of Dugtrio and Gothitelle is beyond stupid. One can only trap steels, not even consistently at times, while the others can basically remove any mon and forces the opponent into awkward sequences to avoid having their mon revenge killed. AM was right with the point about blanket terms, go read the reasoning for the banning of Shadow Tag and Arena Trap before chucking those buzzwords around.
I thought I specifically said that I take back everything about Magnezone being broken and only focus on the ability? More importantly, did you read the part where I said that magnet pull allows you to trap steel all types. That is a fact. Go look it up in bulbapedia if you disagree. I also mentioned that the inability to kill all steel types is not the fault of magnet pull but of Magnezone due to its own inherent flaws

Oh and I did read the arena trap. In case you misread, I quoted that 'Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon'. Those are not my words but those of the council so if you don't agree with that, take it up with them. I made my case based on their own words

And would anyone explain to me what the hell is the logic of 'oh it only traps one type and the pokemon who gets it can't even kill everything it can trap so it's not ban or suspect worthy'? The ou council themselves said that switching is a fundamental part so I guess that just because the ability traps only one type it doesn't break that view? Am I really supposed to believe that? Dafuq is that logic

That's almost like you being allowed to have a gun in a town where owning any kind of guns is illegal just because the one you have is a pistol and not a rifle
 

Finchinator

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I don’t have further comment on the Magnet Pull/Magnezone topic beyond what I already offered currently, but I’ll try to circle back to it in the future whenever I do.

One Pokemon I find quite underrated right now is Dragon Dance :Dragonite:. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Multiscale is a godsend. Dragonite already has a very underrated defensive presence, naturally checking Volcarona, Heatran, and Rillaboom. This generation grants it an even better opportunity to check things and generate free turns, which is what makes Dragon Dance variants so scary.

Dual Wingbeat presents it with a highly coveted Flying STAB that is reliable, Roost allows it to heal off damage and restore Multiscale, and EQ is a coverage option whereas Heal Bell prevents status from derailing a sweep. With the right support and partners, DD Dragonite can and will thrive in this metagame I feel. Curious what others think!
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
I don’t have further comment on the Magnet Pull/Magnezone topic beyond what I already offered currently, but I’ll try to circle back to it in the future whenever I do.

One Pokemon I find quite underrated right now is Dragon Dance :Dragonite:. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Multiscale is a godsend. Dragonite already has a very underrated defensive presence, naturally checking Volcarona, Heatran, and Rillaboom. This generation grants it an even better opportunity to check things and generate free turns, which is what makes Dragon Dance variants so scary.

Dual Wingbeat presents it with a highly coveted Flying STAB that is reliable, Roost allows it to heal off damage and restore Multiscale, and EQ is a coverage option whereas Heal Bell prevents status from derailing a sweep. With the right support and partners, DD Dragonite can and will thrive in this metagame I feel. Curious what others think!
I also think :Dragonite: is very underrated especially with the Dragon Dance set. It's an enormous lategame cleaner and sweeper and with the right support it gets itself going. I do feel great partners are specially defensive Clefable to cover Dragapult, Hydreigon and to a degree Kyurem, which are highly threatening to Dragonite, or even Slowking, to slowly pivot it on the field safely. Landorus-T can also help Dragonite to cover up the ever dangerous Garchomp and also strong attackers such as Melmetal. What I think makes a really good partner is Magnezone (not to surge back to the topic ofc) but it can trap and remove Skarmory and Corviknight which can be a pain for Dragonite itself to deal with, so it opens up the path for Dragonite.

With Rillaboom and Kartana thriving currently I think Dragonite and Volcarona forming a great partnership with enabling each other to break past these Pokemon and also to break through Pokemon such as Corviknight and Skarmory. Volcarona ahs trouble dealing with heatran, but that is something Dragonite covers up really well. They both compliment each other well and support their potential to burst through the opposition.

I think this set can also work on hyper offensive structures like dual screens with Pokemon like Tapu Koko or Grimmsnarl, as they help its sweeping potential with dual screens protecting Dragonite from too much damage it'll take and with Heavy-Duty Boots, Multiscale and dual screens, it has the opportunity to be a threatening lategame sweeper.

In overall, Dragonite with the right support and tools granted by great teammates is a Pokemon which can be highly threatening, once the opposing team is weakened, and I think it should always be considered in the teambuilding process as a Pokemon to prepare for.

In conclusion: I do feel Dragonite is a great Pokemon and it's worth to build with it, as it can help with plenty of powerful breakers and with the right support it has no trouble dealing with the opposing team.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
If we're gonna talk about trapping we should talk about Heatran not Zone:blobthinking:
Oh trust me I was thinking of ranting about trapping moves after this whole magnet pull thing just for the sake of consistency. I do have my own misgivings about banning trapping moves because you have to actively trap your target instead of just switching in and trapping but since they have similar concept, I wouldn't mind discussing them since I did say trapping is trapping, regardless of form, size or shape. To be honest, I'm just curious where the council stands on this since they were the ones that said that switching is fundamental

If magnet pull and trapping moves get a pass, then the council should make a statement on that whole switching is fundamental thing that they themselves has said and yet, there are still stuff that prevents switching still allowed on the tier. At the very least the council should rephrase their statement because with the current logic of switching is fundamental, then all trapping moves and abilities should be banned no matter how miniscule they might be
 
Now that the suspect is over I would like to make some comments on the latest discussions;

- This is bulk, fast and has a variety of sets to deal with your counters (remembering the Zygarde effect) with the exception of Heatran. However, you not only need to use Heatran, but also Leftovers, Taunt and refrain from exploring Flame Body. Debatable.

Magnet Pull - Although its reach is much less than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, I like the line of thought in which it is consistent to consider it as uncompetitive and deserving of a ban as AT / ST. The problem is that there is a lack of good Magnet Pull users. Magnezone has a respectable 130 SpA but lacks the flexibility needed to handle all Steel-types in the tier with the same set. Limited movepool and insufficient speed. I do not want to dwell here, it deserves a discussion on the merits or not of trapping one of the main types of metagame, but in the distant future.

/ Teleport - Teleport is a very debatable move in which we could discuss how healthy or brainless its use is for the tier, but an undeniable point is that we have great users of this move. Clefable doesn't care about status and hazards, just like Blissey (boots). But Slows have great bulk, Regenerator, in addition offensive pressure with Future Sight and even punish switchs with a possible Scald Burn. As a casual player, I don't want to point out whether the problem is if Teleport is broken/uncompetitive, or if Slows, bringing together all its qualities is what makes it unsustainable, but to suggest that the next step for a better metagame is to tinker with that hornet's nest, although I also know that we just came out of a suspect and maybe a few days to observe the metagame are necessary, although we did not have a change in the tier.
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
 
So now that the Zama stuff is out of the way, is it Cinderace retest time? Personally, while I'd love to see it back and have its day, there are 2 factors, which I think need tackling first: FuturePort/Kantonian Slow twins and Rillaboom. Both of these have broken aspects, and were 2 of the factors that were tipping Ace over the edge, and both have had major discussions on this thread. However, its been seen that, irregardless of Ace, they remained very potent, even to the point of being broken. I feel that they need addressing first before Cinderace should have its retest.

Kanto Slowtwins/Future Port/Regen

Future Port I feel is a very strong combination at the moment. When combined with a Pokemon that could break Dark types, its nasty. Hence the strength it saw with Urshifu-SS and Zamazenta-C. A 120 BP delayed Psychic move is really not nice to take, and most that can resist the Psychic attack get shredded by a strong breaker. Add Teleport giving you information about what to swap into due to negative priority, its a very scary thing. However, the 2 alone aren't bad, otherwise we would see the likes of beheeyem up in OU. Regenerator means that, on the switch, you get a free health recovery, which makes the slowtwins that much more effective at their job. Regen+Future Sight is fairly balanced, as you have to manually switch, meaning you need a near perfect switch, and a wrong one can lead to significant damage. Galar Slowking is fairly OK, and not broken by regen+Future Sight.

Regen on its own is annoying, as you lose a lot of progress that you make on a lot of defensive threats. Torn-t can recover rocks damage if it loses boots and pex is near immortal. However, you can generally wear down the team to the point they lose the regen Mon.

Overall, I'd say the broken elements are the trio together, and I'd be down for a ban on the slow twins. Future Port with regen kept being one of the catalysts for the banning of Urshifu SS, Cinderace and Zamazenta-C. And, the list only extends when people find new partners for it. Apart, each element is fine, but together, they are a very powerful combo. Teleport on its own is fine. It's just a slow pivot move with no damage. We have had slow pivots in the past and those were OK. And future sight just needs time after the ban to see how bad that affects the meta.

Rillaboom
I've actually put Rillaboom on both of the last surveys as one Mon I'd like seeing tested/banned. While I think rillaboom is cool and all, it's Grassy Glide is what tips the scales for me. Without grassy glide, it would be similar to Bulu: a strong offensive grass type that can set terrain and bolster its powerful grass offensive options. Grassy Glide takes it too far. Vs resisted fast offensive options, banded glide 2HKOes most dragapult and offensively oriented tornadus-t and can completely KO unresisted options. Banded Grassy Glide out powers banded Talonflame Brave Bird, which was a menace back in Gen 6. And remember, that's not even rillaboom's strongest option. Banded Wood Hammer can break most 2x threats that think they can easily switch in. For example, if rocks are down, and offensive torn has lost its boots, it's KOed after rocks by wood hammer. That's just the banded version. The SD variants, while not initially as strong, still pack a punch, and are even stronger when setup.

And the Zama test only strengthened my thoughts. It swapped from knock off to superpower as main coverage, and ended up taking out ferrothorns and even heatrans on a correctly called switch, which are usually some of the go to checks for it. You need a very defensive grass resist to even think about handling rillaboom. Hence the huge rise in Corv and Skarm, which are now the reason people bring up Magnezone and Magnet Pull, since Zone is a very good option at handling both of them, leaving teams in the open to Rilla sweeps.

Rillaboom is a really unhealthy presence in the metagame. It needs to go. It surpresses way too much, and is a meta warping force.
 
I actually think the meta is “balanced” rn, there’s not really one best play style or mon (though an argument can be made for futureport BO being the most consistent). I think there’s some real burnout playing knock off regenerator - the meta ™️ (Rip ZamaC). I have changed my mind and I’m officially neutral on the slotwins, I don’t care either way what happens. There’s a compelling argument that having a way to make progress against Pex, blobs and other status spreading stuff is a net positive. I love using Bro to get a clean seedless teleport from ferro into my fire type for example. On the other hand, a typical OU game feels like you click knock off and volt turn 10 times as your regenerator pivots and Landorus kinda just slap each other until you get your breaker in on a futureport.
 
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Generally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.
 
Generally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.
Which means either the slow twins and glowbro or teleport get suspected
 
Volcarona is really good right now between it's three sets (3 attacks, 2 attacks roost and safeguard) with only Heatran countering all of them. No Dugtrio and Golem-A means there's no way to trap Heatran unfortunately, right? No wrong! I've been using this Magnezone set which can trap tran easily if you switch in on toxic or SR or get it in via a double switch.

:ss/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

Set could be optimised further but the EVs allow zone to tank one earth power from Heatran and Kyurem after SR and obviously KOs back with Mirror coat. Mirror coat is very unexpected but cool tech. AV Magnezone can still trap the metal birds and serves as a decent one/two time switch in to Lele, Dragapult, Koko and some other special attackers. It can be used as a decent switch in for special attackers on more offensive teams. I used on a Volt turn team with Volc, Rillaboom and Kart and had good results. One replay I saved on the decently high ladder (1700s) where zone put in a ton of work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1329911805

Edit: Thanks Drahe for help with the larger sprite
 
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Some select council member quotes on trapping with me bolding things I think agree with my argument and ignoring stuff I don't like:psynervous:

Finch - Gen 8 Arena Trap
Arena Trap has been identified as a potentially banworthy ability in the SS OU metagame; trapping with Dugtrio has a large impact on gameplay in the current metagame. Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon. Seeing as Arena Trap restricts the ability to switch for anything that is grounded, it should be no surprise that a capable abuser of this ability can be deemed a problem in the context of the metagame. Dugtrio has been one of the best Pokemon in the metagame in recent months; it is able to fit on to balance archetypes and help eliminate common Pokemon in order to help support teammates. This dynamic has been viewed as problematic historically, but we must examine Arena Trap specifically in the SS OU metagame to determine its banworthiness (or lack thereof).

...
While Dugtrio is the lone current abuser of this ability, Arena Trap is the subject of this suspect test. The OU Council decided on this focus because Arena Trap allows for the act of trapping to occur. We believe that this ability may not have a place in the SS OU metagame. We have reasonable cause to believe that Arena Trap could be deemed banworthy on any half-decent Pokemon that would receive it and have tiering precedent to back the decision to make the subject of the suspect test Arena Trap as opposed to Dugtiro. This allows for us to avoid having to address the issue again moving forward if it were to come to that.

ABR
Arena Trap simply allows Dugtrio to trap too much of the metagame. The trappable targets in OU are Bish, Cinderace, Clef, Exca, Jirachi, Keld, Kyurem, Terrak, Pex, Tar, and Zera. Some may say that shed shell can be used to bypass a trapping weakness, but the opportunity cost of using it is immense. For example, a shed shell Pex cannot reliably beat a cm flamethrower Clef and a shed shell Clef cannot reliably wall much of anything. Having so many pokemon vulnerable to trapping places an overly demanding strain on the metagame and I believe removing Arena Trap would create a lot more flexibility and freedom.

Eo UT Mortus
Much of the reasoning behind why we banned Dugtrio in previous gens remains relevant today. Dugtrio can trap and thereby invalidate a significant portion of the SS metagame's staples; this imposes a significant degree of risk management when choosing whether or not to build with them, or whether or not to use Shed Shell on a trappable Pokemon. Whereas counterplay to most Pokemon might usually consist of one or two Pokemon, amassing counterplay to Dugtrio involves building one's entire team to be resilient against it. This is too large an impact for a single Pokemon to have on building, especially when exercising precautions against Dugtrio tends to offer no benefit otherwise.

Finch again
Arena Trap on Dugtrio has been one of the most controversial topics in the SS OU metagame for a few months now. Handling the ability allows for us to tackle the root of the problem while also avoiding any potential repeat issues with other abusers in the future. We have precedent for this and it is also discussed at length in the OP, so I will just focus on Dugtrio. The Focus Sash set has recently become very problematic; it is able to take out a variety of prominent Pokemon while also taking out the normal suspects. The Choice Band set is also superb; it is able to trap many weakened Pokemon while also eliminating a number of walls that are necessary for balance teams in specific match-ups. The impact of Dugtrio's trapping is not to be understated in the current metagame. Many games are blown wide open if and when Dugtrio is able to be effective with Arena Trap. No other Pokemon in the tier have the same unforgiving impact on gameplay and I do not view this dynamic as a healthy one. Switching is a fundamental part of gameplay as we see it and eliminating that through a steady trapper of everything grounded such as Arena Trap Dugtrio is not something that belongs in our metagame. Much like previous generations, I believe that we should ban Arena Trap.

KratosMana
I personally thought Arena Trap should have been gone a while ago, however I also wanted to see how it would do with the new Pokémon Home metagame. But i believe it has become very clear over time that Arena Trap would have to bite the dust again. Thanks to last gen's Dugtrio Attack buff, it's able to net out a ton of very key damage benchmarks in this metagame, notably being able to 2KO most Clefable(one of the best Pokémon in the metagame) sets with Choice Band, for example. Both Choice Scarf and Focus Sash also make it for an excellent Revenge Killer against a ton of common offensive threats, such as Zeraora, Kyurem and Obstagoon(for Focus Sash), Excadrill, Cinderace and Terrakion, to name a few. Arena Trap in general just gives the metagame way more harm than good, creates looping scenarios where teams are unable to function properly because of it, and is way too pressuring to the metagame as a whole. There's too many cases where Pokémon are being forced to run ridiculous sets(see: Shed Shell Terrakion being actually somewhat common, being brought to an SPL game) for me to see it as a healthy part of our metagame.


Gen 7 Dugtrio Test -

Blunder
Dugtrio itself possesses one of the greatest aids to defensive teams: the ability to trap would be stallbreakers and threats to defensive cores. By utilizing it's recent attack buff along with the wide amount of Pokemon it is able to neutralize, Dugtrio has become a favorite pick among defensive builds. With the ability Arena Trap, Dugtrio gains the ability to consistently pressure the opponent through the threat of completely throwing the momentum of the game by eliminating a key counter, or breaker, that threatens the team otherwise.

Gen 6 Shadow Tag + Sablenite test
boudouche

Shadow Tag has been identified by both tournaments and ladder players as an issue. This ability denies the opposing side one of the key elements in Pokemon; switching. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Ghost types and opposing Shadow Tag Pokemon, but only four Pokemon are remotely viable in OU.

The most popular abuser of the ability is Gothitelle, which gets Trick, Rest, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, and other viable moves. Gothitelle has the ability to give its item (typically a Choice Scarf) to a Pokemon that cannot kill it, forces it to lock itself into a move, and then proceed to a PP stall until the Pokemon dies by using Struggle. The only way a trap from Shadow Tag can be avoided is continuously double switching until the Shadow Tag user dies to hazards (that means hazards have to be on the Shadow Tag user's side of the field) or giving a Pokemon Shed Shell, which only has one very niche use.

We decided to not suspect Gothitelle because we think Shadow Tag is the main part of the problem. Gothorita has the same trapping abilities as its evolution, and thus could also become an issue should Gothitelle be banned. We also think Wobbuffet and Wynaut, despite being quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle, are problematic, as they can punish the opponent by trapping a target and create a hole and punish the opponent with little to no counter play.

My point with all of this is that a lot of high level people have said that switching is fundamental. Now you might say, negativecharge, you have taken them out of context, they mean to say that it's only fundamental when the pool of targets is too large. Sure, I guess but there is clearly a straight line from the reasoning from these old suspects and banning Magnet Pull. A critical point that comes up over and over again is that trapping puts the trapping user in the driver seat by removing a key check/counter. All the people saying that switching isn't fundamental are going against many years of precedent. The current status quo is that Wynaut and Gothita are more problematic than Magnezone (are they? I don't know, they never saw play and weren't individually suspected) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either switching is or isn't fundamental, but it seems to me it was until very recently...
 
Regarding the discourse about Magnet Pull.

Lately several people have been pointing out that because Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were banned because "switching is a fundamental part of the game, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned" then logically Magnet Pull should also be banned, and then several more people turn to them talk about how Magnezone isn't actually broken or problematic. The people in the latter group are completely missing the point of what the former group is saying. This isn't really about people wanting Magnet Pull to be banned. At least, that's not how I see it. This is about people noticing a hypocrisy and calling it out in order to better form a more consistent precedent for what is and isn't competitive.

To quote Colonel M in his thread on King's Rock:
Again, the problem isn't me playing Devil's Advocate to protect the items. I want them gone as much as everyone else in the thread. The problem is making sure the logical train is airtight to prevent a slippery slope. I'm sure even with arguments you could argue some slippery slopes, but it's also a start to addressing the problem and keeping it within tiering specifics that attempt to follow a logical flow without half-assing the argument as "I just don't like the item and it should go".
(emphasis mine)

Replace "banning King's Rock" with "banning Shadow Tag and Arena Trap" and it's basically the same argument.

Regardless of whether or not Magnet Pull is actually problematic and in need of a ban, stating "switching is a fundamental part of the game therefore trapping is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned" by its own definition would mean that Magnet Pull is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned, so to say that Magnet Pull isn't that is an inconsistency that needs addressing. The two options for doing so are 1) ban Magnet Pull (probably not happening) or 2) provide a more rigorous definition of what is and isn't competitive.
 
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Monky25

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Idk what the council is thinking and their opinions on this issue is but I might as well justify a reasoning those 2 abilities were banned without resorting to the "switching is fundamental" argument. Both Dugtrio and gothitelle put an extreme strain on the builder, warping teams so Pokemon who didn't like getting trapped were seldom used and invalidated while also enabling too many Pokemon/archetypes. Arena trap helped make stall incredibly powerful by trapping and removing threats and as seen with the tour going on at the time (forgot the name) the top 15 pokemon most used Pokemon had like 4 of them weak to dugtrio, showing its strain on the builder where anything trapped by it wasn't worth using at the time. Like said before, with the previous generation tests we found that even shit like diglett and gothorita could get the job done, so it made sense to ban the ability rather than waste time on a case by case basis for every single Pokemon. Hope this gives an answer as to why you can justify a ban on arena trap and shadow tag as opposed to simply saying "it stops switching" because these abilities versus magnet pull and stuff like fire spin are not the same, otherwise they would have been dealt with long ago. Overall, disregard that whole switching argument as that wasn't the sole reason to ban those 2, both abilities and their abusers restricted the teambuilding and created an unhealthy, centralized environment. They enabled too many Pokemon and archetypes while also invalidating other Pokemon that were too negatively affected by it (toxtricity example). Those 2 abilities had a much wider range of targets as well, making them very different from zone and its very few targets that aren't invalidated by it. As myself and many others have stated before, magnet pull does not do any of this and doesn't need a ban. Once again, the sole basis behind the ban argument is solely the idea of consistency rather than genuine unhealthiness and negative impact, which is something I really disagree with. However, as seen by my explanation, there are other reasons you can justify banning arena trap and shadow tag without resorting to the switching is fundamental argument.
 
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Problem is with banning a combo of teleport + sight or any other of the twins moveset is they're not broken on any other mon with for example teleport + future sight, I dont see a point in banning this combo that isnt broken and why not just ban the twins, if you're removing teleport and future sight, which is basically 95% of why they're used, then might as well ban it instead.
 
Volcarona is really good right now between it's three sets (3 attacks, 2 attacks roost and safeguard) with only Heatran countering all of them. No Dugtrio and Golem-A means there's no way to trap Heatran unfortunately, right? No wrong! I've been using this Magnezone set which can trap tran easily if you switch in on toxic or SR or get it in via a double switch.

:ss/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

Set could be optimised further but the EVs allow zone to tank one earth power from Heatran and Kyurem after SR and obviously KOs back with Mirror coat. Mirror coat is very unexpected but cool tech. AV Magnezone can still trap the metal birds and serves as a decent one/two time switch in to Lele, Dragapult, Koko and some other special attackers. It can be used as a decent switch in for special attackers on more offensive teams. I used on a Volt turn team with Volc, Rillaboom and Kart and had good results. One replay I saved on the decently high ladder (1700s) where zone put in a ton of work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1329911805

Edit: Thanks Drahe for help with the larger sprite
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 112 SpA / 56 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature

IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Flash Cannon
- Mirror Coat
- Body Press

For a different spread, this one has the same defensive potential as yours, but I don't think Zone needs THAT much speed; I see that you are trying to outspeed Heatran, but it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to KO it using a negative priority move in Mirror Coat anyway. Zone could use a bit more power and have more SpAtk EVs. Also, just the tiniest of Def investment allows Magnezone to always 3HKO 252/252+ Blissey with Body Press, which is a very cool interaction as if you catch a Blissey on a Teleport with Body Press, suddenly it can't switch into Magnezone anymore due to the risk of getting 2HKOd by Body Press. Also, this deals A LOT more damage than Flash Cannon to SpDef Tyranitar, another troublesome mon for Volcarona. Yes you lose the momentum-grabbing Volt Switch, but I think those Blissey and Tyranitar interaction are pretty interesting, specifically for Volcarona. Also, Discharge is an option for Electric STAB because the yellow magic is beautiful. This outspeeds univested and 4 Spe EVs base 70s (mainly Skarmory)
 
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 112 SpA / 56 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature

IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Flash Cannon
- Mirror Coat
- Body Press

For a different spread, this one has the same defensive potential as yours, but I don't think Zone needs THAT much speed; I see that you are trying to outspeed Heatran, but it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to KO it using a negative priority move in Mirror Coat anyway. Zone could use a bit more power and have more SpAtk EVs. Also, just the tiniest of Def investment allows Magnezone to always 3HKO 252/252+ Blissey with Body Press, which is a very cool interaction as if you catch a Blissey on a Teleport with Body Press, suddenly it can't switch into Magnezone anymore due to the risk of getting 2HKOd by Body Press. Also, this deals A LOT more damage than Flash Cannon to SpDef Tyranitar, another troublesome mon for Volcarona. Yes you lose the momentum-grabbing Volt Switch, but I think those Blissey and Tyranitar interaction are pretty interesting, specifically for Volcarona. Also, Discharge is an option for Electric STAB because the yellow magic is beautiful. This outspeeds univested and 4 Spe EVs base 70s (mainly Skarmory)
The problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat

This set guaranteed lives a EP from Modest Tran after rocks. However, even this set is not guaranteed to work as a 0 SpAtk Tran has a roll to not even do enough with Magma Storm to this set to get reverse KOed from Mirror Coat. On min roll, Max HP Tran only takes 87% back from Mirror Coat. On the plus side, this set does take 2 Lava Plumes from Tran, only seen on 0 SpAtk variants, so you could trap even those rare variants.

I think 87 min not too bad and you have roll to still kill from full however, it is not in your favor at all. You technically can just ignore Modest as they are very rare and then this problem goes away but this set will work against all variants except the even rarer specs versions and eruption variants. At the end of the day Zone is just isn't meant to trap Tran. We can kind of try with this but it there a lot of variants that still won't get trapped by this. It is impossible to umbrella trap all Tran variants with a Zone.
 

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