Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Finchinator]

Can I ask why exactly you think pult isn't 'suspect worthy'? As you said specs has limited offensive counterplay. And Martin quite clearly outlined in his post that pult's defensive counterplay is limited as well. And most of the stuff that is reliable e.g. mandibuzz is easily exploited with team support.

Because while it has limited counterplay, it is not limited to an unreasonable extent. A lot of balanced Pokemon have limited counterplay and function as strong Pokemon, but still are not banworthy.

Blissey, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Tyranitar, SDef Clefable, SDef Heatran, and SDef Hippowdon are all there defensively. This is more than enough and I think we can all agree on that.

As for offensive counterplay, hyper offense has seen an uptick in Scarf Tapu Fini cores, Dark types with super effective priority, Zeraora, and even Moltres-Galar. In addition to this, many well-built teams are at worst forcing trade with Dragapult, having something to take advantage of any move it locks into and forcing it to be prediction reliant. This is also how hyper offense checks Tapu Koko once the Ground type (oftentimes lead LandoT) is weakened or how they check a number of other common Pokemon (Weavile, Scarf Landorus-T, accurate Tornadus-T (barring screens Tapu Koko with an Electric attack), Kartana, Scarf Tapu Lele, etc.) in the metagame. This archetype functions not off of having durable counterplay, but rather on having strong follow-ups and punishing the opponent. Dragapult hardly stands out in this context ever since the rise of multiple Dark types in usage, but perhaps this would be something to reassess if Zamazenta-Crowned remained OU.

Martin brings up some fine points, but I disagree with his claims about the lack of counterplay in practice and his ultimate conclusion.

 

[pkmnthebest]

I think the single most pressing issue in the meta rn is Slowking and Slowbro. The sheer degeneracy of teams that stack kanto bro + galar king can't be overstated enough. Can you beat them? Sure, but they severely limit builds. I remember old meme stall teams with Chansey + Blissey but this is way worse. These mons encourage completely brainless, low risk linear play that makes games take an eternity.

If games with slowtwins take an eternity, a game with toxapex (with teleport or future sight banned) will take at least 2 eternities again.
The slowtwins with future sight and teleport are a necessary evil, you can pressure toxapex way easier, remove future sight or teleport and toxapex will skyrocket in usage again (I firmly believe that no one wants a toxapex running rampant again in a meta without z-moves and mega).
People complaining that teleport and future sight encourage brainless meta, but in the previuos generations what skill were involved in clicking stealth rock or spikes in 99% of the matches and as soon as possible? I tell you: almost 0.

I firmly believe that GF buffed future sight and telepoet primarily for the toxapex's problem, they recognized that a bulky water with huge defenses from both sides (slowtwins have only one high defense respectively), regenerator, haze, baneful banker, knock off, toxic spikes etc. was a mistake in the first place especially in a meta without z-moves or mega (this is just my guess of course).

The meta before future sight and teleport slowtwins was really unfun and stale, almost one third of the matches lasted more than 120 turns and most of the teams had a toxapex, how can you say that slowtwins encourage endless battle? The matches at the moment are rather shorter than pre fs+teleport matches, because in the previous Sw/Sh metas simply there was not a way to properly punish toxapex.

 

[Red Raven]

What does everyone think about this metal fuck?




Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy? I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays. I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept. It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle. Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned

 

[Windingsss]

What does everyone think about this metal fuck?




Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy? I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays. I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept. It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle. Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned

Kinda short post but i need to say some stuff here, because Magnezone is not even close to being unhealthy like some stuff we've had (Vish, Spectrier, Shifu)

I mean this mon is next to useless unless its facing off against metal birds or durians but those two are defensive pillars in the game and being able to trap and remove them just forces the player to make extremely risky plays.

So, starting right here. As you said, Magnezone is just useless against archetypes like HO or Screens which are common right now, so it has a good chance of just being dead weight in a lot of matches. An "uncompetitive" or "unhealthy" mon like, for example, Urshifu, will almost never be useless, that's why you use those terms on them.

I mean, Dugtrio was banned because arena trap just allows it to pick off mons one by one but while Magnezone is a lot more limited, it's still the same concept

Even if its the same concept (of trapping, because the abilities arent the same) comparing Dugtrio and Magnezone is just weird to me? Dugtrio could literally trap all Pokémon barring Ghost-types and just eliminate them thanks to its ridiculous speed tier and EdgeQuake coverage. Magnezone traps Steel-types. That's it. What if your opponent doesnt have a Steel-type, or it has a Steel-type that Magnezone cant deal with like Kartana or Heatran? This is another difference between Magnezone and Dugtrio.

It just makes dangerous threats like Garchomp and Rillaboom much more difficult to handle.

Here you're outright ignoring the fact that the teams that include Steel-types also have other defensive Pokémon that can lidiate with certain threats. For example, Hippowdon can manage Garchomp, and Heatran (Which can outspeed all Magnezone's sets barring Scarf; if you dont like this example you could even use Zapdos) can deal with Rillaboom.

Sometimes it can mean an auto lose to those if you rely on metals to stop them, which in turn would restrict team building if you want to put more than one answer to those two

See, again here. Im not mentioning the fact that offensive teams can manage these threats AND Magnezone, because even balance teams can have offensive and defensive answers to these even without Steel-types. What i said above applies here as well.

I really think this mon puts a strain on teambuilding because it can instantly delete three of the sturdiest defensive pillars in the game and leave you vulnerable to many of the tier's dangerous attackers, including but not limited to the two I mentioned

Ok so, i dont know if this just applies to me (because i only build offensive teams) but i have NEVER thought about Magnezone when im building a team because it just isnt a threat thanks to its awful speed tier and middling bulk.

Overall, i dont think Magnezone is a current problem in the metagame. Is it a great support Pokémon? Yes, but its niche is limited to trapping Steel-types, and even stuff like Corviknight learn U-turn and can use Shed Shell if your team is weak to Rillazone or something. Offensive archetypes with Pokémon like like Dragapult, Volcarona and Heatran can just stop Magnezone easily and you can play around it with good predicts, thus making it useless in some matchups.

 

[Katy]

Am I the only one who thinks this metal fuck is uncompetitive or at the very least unhealthy?

isn't uncompetetive at all, it has only so much to trap, unlike Arena Trap or Shadow Tag its ability in Magnet Pull is only capable of trapping Steel-types and most Steel-types such as Heatran, Aegislash, opposing Magnezone, and Ferrothorn it has to be wary about. Even Corviknight can run a more speedy invested EV spread to U-turn out safely. All of the previous mentioned Pokemon Magnezone has to fear Knock Off or either STAB moves or coverage in forme of Fighting-type moves, which severely can weaken Magnezone. It isn't that easy at all to trap a Steel and call it a day. Plenty of the Steel-types could also creep Magnezone so they get the first hit off.

Magnezone - even though it can trap and remove Skarmory and Corviknight for the likes of Kartana and Rillaboom - can't do much outside of that and the fact it has Volt Switch and the less common used Teleport only to pivot, Ground-types have an easy way to just deter the Volt Switch attempt, and then you lost a lot of momentum, while attempting the Volt Switch.

I won't deny that Magnezone is one of the better Pokemon currently, with its amazing abilities it offers for a team, like trapping and removing the Steel-type birds for Rillaboom and Kartana, but all in all it isn't unhealthy nor uncompetetive, as its abilities to trap Pokemon only relies on Magnet Pull trapping opposing Steel-types, whereas Dugtrio and Pokemon like Gothitelle and Gothorita can trap nearly every Pokemon with a few exceptions.

 

[Vengeance417]

I don't think either of Teleport, Future Sight, or Regenerator on their own are all that bad, and it's the regular Slowtwins that are the main culprits behind this controversy.

Teleport's extremely annoying, but I think that's only due to OU's main users of the move being really frickin' good at abusing it. Clefable's access to Magic Guard dodges hazard, weather, and status condition damage, letting it WishPort quite consistently. Blissey/Chansey are just tanky behemoths all-around that take next to nothing from Special moves, and Teleport lets them circumvent their lacking offensive presence by gaining momentum. However, most of all, the Slowtwins have Regenerator to soft-recover themselves upon coming back in after Teleporting out, and out of all the Port users, I don't think it's a hot take to say they're the most overbearing users. I don't believe that Clef and the Seys are nearly as problematic Teleport users compared to the Slowtwins.

Future Sight is, again, really only abused by the Slowtwins in OU, and GalarKing doesn't get access to Teleport. If we were to ban the Slowtwins, I don't see Future Sight Latis or even Tapu Lele being nearly as good at abusing it.

Regenerator sucks to deal with, but again, OU's abusers are among the best in the game. Not counting the Slowtwins and GalarKing, there's also Toxapex, Tornadus-T, and the more fringe Amoonguss and Tangrowth. The latter two I don't consider too problematic, but the former are highly controversial for reasons stated multiple times on this site. I'd rather just keep the best abusers of the ability on the radar instead of the entire ability as a whole. I don't see Regenerator Corsola making waves anytime soon.

If it were up to me, I'd start with looking at the Slowtwins first. Teleport, Future Sight, and Regenerator aren't broken/uncompetitive on their own, otherwise everything that uses it would be too overbearing (see Moody/Arena Trap). It's clear that the Slowtwins represent everything that the community seems to find toxic regarding the aforementioned 3 mechanics. Vouching to keep Slowking around to handle Tapu Lele, for example, is just another example of "broken beats broken". If Lele becomes too problematic post Slowking ban, then Suspect Test Tapu Lele afterwards.

 

[Negative Charge]

I don't think Magnezone is broken. However if one goes back to read old Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Dugtrio suspects from over the years a common point of argument is that switching is a fundamental part of the game. Things like Shed Shell Lele were considered suboptimal sets in response to trapping. Imo you need Shed Shell on your birds and Toxapex rn (or Balloon Ditto) to not have your whole team collapse from Magnezone/Heatran blowing a hole in your defensive core.

I don't think that having a smaller pool of trapping targets for Magnet Pull compared to Arena Trap is really a logical or consistent defense of its place in the tier though. Switching is fundamental, yes? In my view this has always been one of those weird little leftover bits of tiering that never made a ton of sense. Dugtrio obviously warped the meta to an infinitely larger extent than Magnezone does - but imo that's not really the metric we should be looking at when you're looking at core game mechanics like switching.

 

[MilkyWay]

I don't think Magnezone is broken. However if one goes back to read old Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Dugtrio suspects from over the years a common point of argument is that switching is a fundamental part of the game. Things like Shed Shell Lele were considered suboptimal sets in response to trapping. Imo you need Shed Shell on your birds and Toxapex rn (or Balloon Ditto) to not have your whole team collapse from Magnezone/Heatran blowing a hole in your defensive core.

I don't think that having a smaller pool of trapping targets for Magnet Pull compared to Arena Trap is really a logical or consistent defense of its place in the tier though. Switching is fundamental, yes? In my view this has always been one of those weird little leftover bits of tiering that never made a ton of sense. Dugtrio obviously warped the meta to an infinitely larger extent than Magnezone does - but imo that's not really the metric we should be looking at when you're looking at core game mechanics like switching.

I never really thought “switching is fundamental” was a good argument because both switching and trapping abilities/moves were included by gamefreak and are thus both “fundamental”. I think what it comes down to is Arena Trap and Shadow Tag trap too much and are thus overpowered; since Magnet Pull only traps Steels it is not nearly as overpowered. Since I agree that switching is not necessarily fundamental, I never really understood why stuff like Trapinch was banned and why we didn’t just ban Dugtrio, Gothitelle, etc. but at this point it is what it is
EDIT: I remember that Dugtrio suspect followed by the Arena Trap one later and I always thought the council did that because many people really wanted Dugtrio banned, but it was just shy of the 60% majority the first time, so they suspected Arena Trap the second time because it would look bad to suspect the same thing twice in a row

EDIT again:
Here is a link to a post I made a few months ago concerning why I don’t like people referring to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag/Magnet Pull as “uncompetitive” and drawing a distinction between Arena Trap and Magnet Pull

 

[TailGlowVM]

I never really understood why stuff like Trapinch was banned and why we didn’t just ban Dugtrio, Gothitelle, etc

Originally in SM OU, the council tried suspecting Dugtrio. However, at this time a suspect ladder was used for tests, and on it some people tried using Diglett as a substitute to Dugtrio. Whilst it didn't have Dugtrio's fantastic Speed tier, Diglett could still do most of what Dugtrio could, most notably trapping Heatran. To a lesser extent, Trapinch was also used, which was slower but had passable bulk with Eviolite and EV investment and attack equal to Dugtrio. Consequently, some people wondered if perhaps Arena Trap as a whole should have been the target, and when the suspect returned no ban, many believed this could have skewed the result. When the council later suspected Arena Trap instead, it was banned, which may or may not have been a result of a different thing being suspected. Likewise, Eviolite Gothorita has occasionally been used in Ubers due to having marginally better bulk than Gothitelle and would definitely be able to replace Gothitelle as a trapper in OU (albeit unlikely to be able to run Gothitelle's TrickScarf set).

 

[okispokis]

Well, this is one mon that I did not expect anyone to argue as broken this gen. Mainly because it isn't. Look, Magnezone is not strictly bad in OU, but there's a reason it was previously floundering in the lower tiers for months: the loss of HP was a huge detriment to it, making it far less reliable at its main job and straight up flipping several match-ups. Magnezone isn't an issue not only because it only traps one type, but it's not good enough at trapping that one type to significantly impact the viability of those mons, especially the Specs set. When you look at the current OU landscape, every other Steel theoretically has some kind of counterplay to it. Looking at the individual matchups regarding the Specs set:

Bisharp: Sure, Zone's Modest Electric moves (and Body Press, if it has that) are a guaranteed OHKO on Bisharp- on the other hand, Bisharp's neutral Knock Off is a guaranteed 2HKO, and it outspeeds Modest, meaning you can't hard switch in unless you know it's going to use Iron Head (which is unlikely given how spammable Knock Off is). Zone can actually speed-creep Sharp by literally one point if Jolly, but then it loses the OHKO on Volt Switch and loses the guaranteed OHKO with Tbolt (and also Body Press, apparently). MU: Unreliable
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight: Now this KO is reliable. As far as the standard sets go, Zone will outspeed and OHKO Corv every time. U-turn does make it a bigger pain than Skarm, and rarer sets with Body Press can potentially 2HKO, but the former requires too much Speed investment vs 252 Speed Zone and the latter only works with Shed Shell. MU: Reliable

Excadrill: Excadrill was never Zone's best match-up, and with the loss of HP Specs Zone can't OHKO. You can maybe not instantly die to EQ if Grassy Terrain is up, but if its a HH set alongside Rillaboom you're just screwed. MU: Bad

Ferrothorn: This match-up has easily been hurt the worst by the loss of HP. Specs straight up can't do anything to Ferro; even if you have Press, you only have a chance to 4HKO, and that dwindles to a possible 5HKO once Leech Seed is in play. MU: Bad
4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 98-116 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: Even the defensive set outspeeds and guaranteed OHKOs with either Magma Storm or Earth Power. MU: Bad

Kartana: Kart's SpD is bad enough that even Zone's resisted hits can OHKO. However, Sacred Sword means that Zone cannot hard switch into Kart, often forcing one to scout; if it's definitely Scarf and goes for something else, you're good. If it's Band, you also have to watch out for Knock Off. And if it's LO- just forget it. MU: Unreliable
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Melmetal: EQ and Superpower destroy you. The fact Zone actually outspeeds is countered by the fact that it doesn't OHKO even the least tanky Melmetal without hazard support. And if it's AV, you don't even 2HKO with Tbolt. You can catch Band if it locks into DIB or Thunder Punch, but you're basically forced to scout BandMetal before Zone can actually come in, so Mel can potentially switch out first. MU: Unreliable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 345-406 (82.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 153-180 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Skamory: The classic match-up; now, Skarm seems to actually be less reliable than Corv on first glance since it can slot Press in much more easily, which is a guaranteed 2HKO. If Skarm is at full HP, it can win the 1v1 if it hits Zone on the switch and survive on Sturdy. That said, this condition is situational and Zone's partner can easily take Skarm out after, meaning Zone has still done it's job. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scizor: The one non-OU mon I'll be commenting on, Tbolt reliably 2HKOs even SpD Scizor. However, U-turn is a thing, so if Scizor isn't low enough it just switches out into a potentially scary teammate. Also, the rare Superpower decimates Zone. MU: Unreliable

As you can see, Specs Zone is simply too unreliable against most of the resident Steel (minus the birds) to truly be a meta-defining mon; of the 9 main match-ups, 2 are good, 4 are iffy and 3 are straight up bad. Zone's biggest problem is that, given its intended role, Zone is actually pretty hard to position without the right support, as many Steels have ways of catching it on the switch, in some cases forcing you to scout with one of Zone's teammates before you bring it in, and in a game every bit of chip you take can potentially mean the difference between win or lose. While Dug also had a hard time coming in directly, it also has a far better speed tier. The silver lining is that Zone's role means that you don't have to worry about chip once it's in since Zone is usually only there for 1 or 2 opposing mons. Now, you may be asking why I haven't brought up the Iron Defense set yet. Well, simply put: I think ID set is far superior to the Specs set since it actually lets Zone perform its intended role more reliably. Substitute gives it a valuable safety net, And Air Balloon allows it to ease offensive pressure against itself. For a brief comparison:

Bisharp: Extra Def investment means that Sharp can't 2HKO you with neutral Knock Off, whereas you still OHKO with neutral Body Press. +2 still has a good chance to OHKO, but Sharp does actually have to set-up to beat you. MU: 50/50

Corviknight: Even with less investment you still outspeed and 2HKO Corv with Tbolt. Now, the drop it power does mean healthy Corv can potentially survive and U-turn out, so this is the one match-up I'd say is a bit worse. MU: 50/50

Excadrill: Air Balloon completely changes the dynamic, as Iron Head does pitiful damage and you easily easily chunk Drill in exchange and OHKO after ID. This crucially means that Drill can't switch into you (only Steel type that would really consider that), which alone boosts this match-up a lot. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 266-314 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn: And it would seem the Ferro-trapping days aren't necessarily done after all. This set allows Zone to do actual damage versus Ferro, 2HKOing after one ID. More crucially, Substitute lets it foil Ferro's Leech Seed attempts while caring less about Knock compared to Specs, meaning Ferro can't really do anything in return. MU: Reliable

Heatran: Balloon means that Heatran actually has to hit Magma Storm against you, which combined with Sub potentially gives you a chance. Still not great. MU: Unreliable

Kartana: Kartana is still a pain, but Banded Sacred Sword isn't guaranteed to OHKO this set, plus Zone can actually switch into Knock Off, so now you only need to make sure it's not LO. MU: 50/50
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Melmetal: Only Banded Superpower can answer ID Zone, and none of its other coverage can break Zone's sub, letting you get the ID necessary to 2HKO. Metal's low speed means that Zone can just take it easy once ID is in play. MU: Reliable

Skarmory: Zone still decimates Skarm if it's lost even 1 HP, and Skarm's Body Press isn't even a reliable 2HKO. MU: Reliable

Scizor: U-turn is annoying, but Zone can outspeed and safely sub, and isn't even reliably OHKOed by rare Superpower. Plus unlike Specs, ID Zone can actually do some damage to Scizor's teammate before being forced out. MU: 50/50

As you can see, ID Zone has overall much better match-ups against Steels, with 4 good, 4 okay and only 1 iffy, and only the match-up with Corviknight gets worse compared to Specs. Now, ID Zone does have the same issue as Specs Zone of safely getting it, especially since Balloon is so fragile, but having that Ground immunity can pack some nice benefits like dooming Metal if you come in on EQ (plus Teleport is still a thing). Chople Berry is another alternative depending on which Steels you most want to set-up on. Substitute is also huge since it means you're not automatically forced out by U-turn/Shed Shell shenanigans, meaning Zone can actually put some work in against non-Steels. Between its improved function in trapping Steels and having a bit more flexibility, I would say ID is the way to go if you use Zone.

TL;DR: Magnezone is by no means tier warping, and therefore not broken, since many Steels have counter-play to it and it can have a hard time coming in against its targets. That said, it's more specialized role does mean it's doing it's job as long as it can KO one or two opposing mons, and I personally believe it is more likely to accomplish this with the Iron Defense set vs the Specs set.

 

[Negative Charge]

View attachment 335264
Well, this is one mon that I did not expect anyone to argue as broken this gen. Mainly because it isn't. Look, Magnezone is not strictly bad in OU, but there's a reason it was previously floundering in the lower tiers for months: the loss of HP was a huge detriment to it, making it far less reliable at its main job and straight up flipping several match-ups. Magnezone isn't an issue not only because it only traps one type, but it's not good enough at trapping that one type to significantly impact the viability of those mons, especially the Specs set. When you look at the current OU landscape, every other Steel theoretically has some kind of counterplay to it. Looking at the individual matchups regarding the Specs set:

Bisharp: Sure, Zone's Modest Electric moves (and Body Press, if it has that) are a guaranteed OHKO on Bisharp- on the other hand, Bisharp's neutral Knock Off is a guaranteed 2HKO, and it outspeeds Modest, meaning you can't hard switch in unless you know it's going to use Iron Head (which is unlikely given how spammable Knock Off is). Zone can actually speed-creep Sharp by literally one point if Jolly, but then it loses the OHKO on Volt Switch and loses the guaranteed OHKO with Tbolt (and also Body Press, apparently). MU: Unreliable
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Corviknight: Now this KO is reliable. As far as the standard sets go, Zone will outspeed and OHKO Corv every time. U-turn does make it a bigger pain than Skarm, and rarer sets with Body Press can potentially 2HKO, but the former requires too much Speed investment vs 252 Speed Zone and the latter only works with Shed Shell. MU: Reliable

Excadrill: Excadrill was never Zone's best match-up, and with the loss of HP Specs Zone can't OHKO. You can maybe not instantly die to EQ if Grassy Terrain is up, but if its a HH set alongside Rillaboom you're just screwed. MU: Bad

Ferrothorn: This match-up has easily been hurt the worst by the loss of HP. Specs straight up can't do anything to Ferro; even if you have Press, you only have a chance to 4HKO, and that dwindles to a possible 5HKO once Leech Seed is in play. MU: Bad
4 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 98-116 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran: Even the defensive set outspeeds and guaranteed OHKOs with either Magma Storm or Earth Power. MU: Bad

Kartana: Kart's SpD is bad enough that even Zone's resisted hits can OHKO. However, Sacred Sword means that Zone cannot hard switch into Kart, often forcing one to scout; if it's definitely Scarf and goes for something else, you're good. If it's Band, you also have to watch out for Knock Off. And if it's LO- just forget it. MU: Unreliable
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Melmetal: EQ and Superpower destroy you. The fact Zone actually outspeeds is countered by the fact that it doesn't OHKO even the least tanky Melmetal without hazard support. And if it's AV, you don't even 2HKO with Tbolt. You can catch Band if it locks into DIB or Thunder Punch, but you're basically forced to scout BandMetal before Zone can actually come in, so Mel can potentially switch out first. MU: Unreliable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 345-406 (82.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 153-180 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Skamory: The classic match-up; now, Skarm seems to actually be less reliable than Corv on first glance since it can slot Press in much more easily, which is a guaranteed 2HKO. If Skarm is at full HP, it can win the 1v1 if it hits Zone on the switch and survive on Sturdy. That said, this condition is situational and Zone's partner can easily take Skarm out after, meaning Zone has still done it's job. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scizor: The one non-OU mon I'll be commenting on, Tbolt reliably 2HKOs even SpD Scizor. However, U-turn is a thing, so if Scizor isn't low enough it just switches out into a potentially scary teammate. Also, the rare Superpower decimates Zone. MU: Unreliable

As you can see, Specs Zone is simply too unreliable against most of the resident Steel (minus the birds) to truly be a meta-defining mon; of the 9 main match-ups, 2 are good, 4 are iffy and 3 are straight up bad. Zone's biggest problem is that, given its intended role, Zone is actually pretty hard to position without the right support, as many Steels have ways of catching it on the switch, in some cases forcing you to scout with one of Zone's teammates before you bring it in, and in a game every bit of chip you take can potentially mean the difference between win or lose. While Dug also had a hard time coming in directly, it also has a far better speed tier. The silver lining is that Zone's role means that you don't have to worry about chip once it's in since Zone is usually only there for 1 or 2 opposing mons. Now, you may be asking why I haven't brought up the Iron Defense set yet. Well, simply put: I think ID set is far superior to the Specs set since it actually lets Zone perform its intended role more reliably. Substitute gives it a valuable safety net, And Air Balloon allows it to ease offensive pressure against itself. For a brief comparison:

Bisharp: Extra Def investment means that Sharp can't 2HKO you with neutral Knock Off, whereas you still OHKO with neutral Body Press. +2 still has a good chance to OHKO, but Sharp does actually have to set-up to beat you. MU: 50/50

Corviknight: Even with less investment you still outspeed and 2HKO Corv with Tbolt. Now, the drop it power does mean healthy Corv can potentially survive and U-turn out, so this is the one match-up I'd say is a bit worse. MU: 50/50

Excadrill: Air Balloon completely changes the dynamic, as Iron Head does pitiful damage and you easily easily chunk Drill in exchange and OHKO after ID. This crucially means that Drill can't switch into you (only Steel type that would really consider that), which alone boosts this match-up a lot. MU: Reliable
252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 266-314 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn: And it would seem the Ferro-trapping days aren't necessarily done after all. This set allows Zone to do actual damage versus Ferro, 2HKOing after one ID. More crucially, Substitute lets it foil Ferro's Leech Seed attempts while caring less about Knock compared to Specs, meaning Ferro can't really do anything in return. MU: Reliable

Heatran: Balloon means that Heatran actually has to hit Magma Storm against you, which combined with Sub potentially gives you a chance. Still not great. MU: Unreliable

Kartana: Kartana is still a pain, but Banded Sacred Sword isn't guaranteed to OHKO this set, plus Zone can actually switch into Knock Off, so now you only need to make sure it's not LO. MU: 50/50
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Melmetal: Only Banded Superpower can answer ID Zone, and none of its other coverage can break Zone's sub, letting you get the ID necessary to 2HKO. Metal's low speed means that Zone can just take it easy once ID is in play. MU: Reliable

Skarmory: Zone still decimates Skarm if it's lost even 1 HP, and Skarm's Body Press isn't even a reliable 2HKO. MU: Reliable

Scizor: U-turn is annoying, but Zone can outspeed and safely sub, and isn't even reliably OHKOed by rare Superpower. Plus unlike Specs, ID Zone can actually do some damage to Scizor's teammate before being forced out. MU: 50/50

As you can see, ID Zone has overall much better match-ups against Steels, with 4 good, 4 okay and only 1 iffy, and only the match-up with Corviknight gets worse compared to Specs. Now, ID Zone does have the same issue as Specs Zone of safely getting it, especially since Balloon is so fragile, but having that Ground immunity can pack some nice benefits like dooming Metal if you come in on EQ (plus Teleport is still a thing). Chople Berry is another alternative depending on which Steels you most want to set-up on. Substitute is also huge since it means you're not automatically forced out by U-turn/Shed Shell shenanigans, meaning Zone can actually put some work in against non-Steels. Between its improved function in trapping Steels and having a bit more flexibility, I would say ID is the way to go if you use Zone.

TL;DR: Magnezone is by no means tier warping, and therefore not broken, since many Steels have counter-play to it and it can have a hard time coming in against its targets. That said, it's more specialized role does mean it's doing it's job as long as it can KO one or two opposing mons, and I personally believe it is more likely to accomplish this with the Iron Defense set vs the Specs set.

I appreciate that you took the time to write this up but the calc-wall is mostly beyond the point at issue. Above TailGlowVM mentions how something as weak as Diglett necessitated Arena Trap as a whole needing a ban. Looking at the matchup against every steel type is the wrong frame. You build backwards from what your trapper CAN trap. In Diglett's case, it's Heatran and Weakened Tyranitar, so your Volcorona/Charizard-Y can go wild. In Magnezone's case, you throw Rillaboom or Kartana or Zamazenta on your squad to blow holes in their team once Corv/Skarm are dead. This loops back to my original point about trapping abilities generally.

I personally view Shed Shell as an item only a bit more viable than running something like random Haze users in fear of facing a potential baton pass team. You're wasting a slot 80% of games just to not autolose those other 20%.

 

[The Funky Reason]

I don't really post but there is just some weird thing on Smogon where people often like making exceptions based on mons they personally like but here are a couple of things I'd like to give my opinion on.

Magnet Pull

I got super annoyed at people during the arena trap suspect test when talking about diglet and trapinch. Diglet and trapinch can technically trap anything but in practice only really are capable of removing a handful of mons. Remember that we have to talk about what each one funcitonally traps instead of what it technically traps. Magnezone technically traps heatran, but who is trapped with who most of the time? Diglet, but especially trapinch fall into the same issue. However, those few mons they can trap could be critically important in keeping a certain sweeper in check. One example used during the suspect was trapinch trapping seismatoad and allowing dracovish to sweep. This caused you to make the same awkward plays that magnezone forces with the metal birds. If you don't run shedshell, which I often do, you suddenly have a fifty-fifty not only every time their sweeper hits the field but every turn they are on the field. If we justified those mons getting banned let's not make an exception for magnezone because we like dead skarms or something. Here is something to thing about.

In one instance let's say I send out dracovish and you have something that loses to it. Now you have to predict whether I double out to trapinch and trap your seismatoad. If you guess wrong you lose a mon or lose the game if toad dies.

In one instance let's say I send out garchomp on something that it beats. Now you have to predict whether I attack, or double into magnezone literally every turn that garchomp is on the field. If you guess wrong you lose a mon or lose the game if metal bird dies.

Now there is an important difference in these scenarios and you may have caught it if you are a good reader. Trapinch loses if it switches into toad and toad attacks, but magnezone can switch in at anytime on its targets and trap and kill, unless corv u-turns. The burden of magnezone is honestly far worse than the bird of something like trapinch.

Something that gives the game away for the pro-arena trap ban people is that they disliked diglet still trapping things like tran and tyranitar for stall/charizard y squads. He functions incredibly similar to magnezone in a comp like that but we just all agree that one of these is okay and the other isn't for some arbitrary reason.

Conclusion: I think smogon should be logically consistent and remove magnet pull from the metagame or retest trapinch/diglet/wynaut/gothita because then obviously trapping as a concept is not broken.

Also, Finchinator (whom I usually agree with) shutdown comparisons to magnet pull because it wasn't in the game. Now it is. Now we have to come up with a better reason to differentiate the weaker trappers like trapinch, diglet, gothita, wynaut and even wobbuffet from trappers like magneton/zone. If we can't we just have to say trapping is broken to keep the former out of the meta, but that does also keep the latter out of the meta. I don't think either of these are horrible outcomes, but we have to pick one or else we are just picking favorites.

King's Rock

I understand the sentiment as it does feel really bad when your opponent plays horribly and you have two cloyster checks intact and he needs 3 flinches and gets every single one. If you call king's rock uncompetitive you need to draw the line somewhere and it will be arbitrary. Is a gyara flinching with waterfall past a check uncompetitive? Is bisharp flinching past a check uncompetitive? A torn needing to land every hurricane to win and hitting all 5 (seriously though, this is a low chance just like king's rock flinching)? These are all scenarios where you can lose when you get unlucky and it feels bad but that is part of an RNG game. Sometimes that better player loses. I can't speak to gen 5, but if it is ripping up the meta there, just ban cloyster. If you think cloyster is broken in this gen (I don't) then test cloyster, not the rock.

Slowtwins

There is absolutely no reason to suspect any other part of the equation (unless you think boots are broken, but I don't even think they are a huge part of why the slowtwins are so good this gen). People trying really trying to do complex bans of regen+teleport+fsight because that's the only one that catches only the problematic pokemon with no collateral. The problem: That is literally just leaving the two broken mons, slowking and slowbro. They need to go imo, but to be consistent we should only even consider testing those mons. Doing a complex ban like that would literalyl be like the people we make fun of for saying we should have blaze blaziken, or mewtwo but no STABs.

Regenerator

People going for regen need to understand how strong offensive threats have gotten. Good luck checking everything without regen cores. If we just wanted to remove it because it's annoying to play against, we would have to vastly scale back the power level of OU sweepers. Those bans, I think people wouldn't be too hot on.

Heatran

People got mad at arena trap for making pokemon like heatran (in past gens) and pex run shedshell, yet heatran makes me run shed shell on my pex. If we are to be logically consistent that a pokemon forcing certain suboptimal items are unhealthy and should be removed, just think about heatran. I personally don't mind running the shell, but that's just me.

Personally I also just hate how much this mon forces progress against all of its checks, which usually lack recovery. I usually end up just running pex with the shell, and in the past I ran spdef gliscor because I hate this mon. Terrain and nature power made it even better at breaking past things that are supposed to beat it.

 

[AM]

Too much ban happy posts for stuff that isnt even like remotely broken, just consider looking at Future Sight or some portion of it Teleport, w/e, and then go from there assuming Zama stays banned. The King's Rock, insert other RNG Misc item being discussed, is more widespread for formats than just OU anyways so it'll probably be figured out in Policy Review.

 

[Jokler]

Just wanted to give my thoughts on the recent topics I have seen here -


1) Slowtwins/Futureport/Regenport dilemma -

I do think this a problem we have to look into as Slowtwins are able to use a strategy designed to be used with excessive positioning very easily and very consistently multiple times a match with minimal risk. Their attributes completely negate the shortcomings of FS. They do get a lot of opportunities in match to fire these off due their solid defensive profile and make Wall Breakers nightmarishly difficult to pivot around or at very least put you on the defensive. You may go to a dark type to take the offensive on a predicted Future Sight but they can just so easily click Teleport and go to the fighting type usually backing them up and lose almost nothing, and even if you stay in with your mon that Slowtwin switched in on to click another attack on a predicted switch from Teleport, then no harm no foul, the Twin can switch in again. This cycle is entirely in the Slowtwin user's favor. It's effects can already be seen in the recent as defensive mons susceptible to FS like Tang, Pex, Amoongus etc. have gone down in usage, while not entirely out because of FS, that does play a part. Mons like Corvi, Slowtwins themselves, etc. which can take on FS are also slowly risen in usage, again not entirely because of FS but still that makes them that much more effective. Zapdos while mostly decreased in usage due to prevalence of knock off, Corvi resists FS while it does not. This must also be taken as a factor. Buzzwole is making a small comeback but I will argue that FS prevents him from getting to comfortable. Even when he checks so much, he can be invalidated in any given match with FS.

I don't think any of the 3 (Future Sight, Teleport, Regen) are broken on their own, maybe Regen is bit unhealthy but we have had that for a long time now and it's not overly broken even now. I think Slowtwins do deserve to be suspected as a whole rather than move combination because only they have access to that combination. As I highlighted above, Slowtwins use all 3 to in tandem with each other to be effective. Slowking Galar doesn't have Teleport and it has not been using FS nearly as effectively as the Slowtwins and also gone down in usage. Defensive mons are always kinda Iffy to assess as being broken but Slowtwins really do reach that threshold IMO as they are genuinely offensively potent.

2) Teleport -

I personally don't think Teleport is broken. The only 3 mons that regularly use Teleport are Slowtwins and Blissey. Clef uses it very rarely nowadays. So anyways my point is that these mons are the reason that Teleport seems unhealthy. The former 2 have Regen and the latter has unparalleled astronomical special bulk that they can pivot almost risk free. Other pivots like Corvi, Mandi etc. are have to take chip when pivoting.

Another point is that people say that if Slowtwins got Flip Turn, they would be doing the same thing and it is kinda true for the most part but Teleport is definitely better. With teleport, You take no contact damage/ status, it can't be blocked by water immunities, even the negative priority is good as something like Ferro can't underspeed the Slowtwins to hit the aggressor rather than a hit that would be Regened by the Twins anyways. On the other hand Flip Turn isn't stopped by taunt which would have made Slowtwins a complete counter to Magma Trap tran and the rare Whirlpool Madness Taunt Fini. There is some give and take but either Pivot move would have worked in a majority of cases.

I think Pivot moves as a whole lower the skill ceiling of the game but they are not suspect worthy IMO. The only problematic thing I see with Teleport is the going last thing and thus always giving the user momentum but the mons using it are extremely slow anyways. Unless specific situations like I outlined above with Ferro (Which I admit would be very helpful but not a deal breaker if not present), Slowtwins and Blissey were going last anyways.

3) Boots -

I don't really think boots are broken tbh. They completely changed the landscape of the metagame, true, but is that a bad thing though? We have just come from a Hazard focused meta game to a positioning Wall Breakers with fast Boots Pivots and slow Boots Pivots meta game. The games do take took long and the meta game in general is slow and too reliant on Pivots but that is just the unique identity of the generation, a identity that people don't like, but an identity nonetheless. Hazards are still pretty prominent though, Spikes Ferro thriving and Skarmory also rising while Rocks are still a staple on every single team so it's not like boots have invalidated hazards either. Another thing I will mention here is Boots are so effective in tandem with Pivot moves. Mons like Zeraora, Pult, Koko etc. are actually able to use Boots because of Pivot moves. Off the top of my head, the only non rock weak mon without a Pivot move that uses boots is Unaware Clef and that is also mostly to bluff Magic Guard. Boots + Pivot moves are the problem IMO.

That being said, I don't have very strong opinion on these. If people want to the change the metagame back to quick paced Hazard focused one without boots, then I am not opposed to it.

I have to say on thing though, I always had a distaste for Pivot moves but now seeing so many unhealthy things rooting back to them, I kind of wonder what the meta game would have looked like if we removed Pivot moves completely. Not saying they even need to be talked about but just an interesting idea. Maybe not though as the meta would just come down to 50/50s every single turn.

4) Knock Off -

This is another thing I don't think is broken. It is an extremely good move, no doubt, but it is something that every team needs to be prepared for. True. that there are no Z moves, Megas etc. to absorb but you can still minimize the damage by selecting which mons can still function without losing their item in battle, not letting multiple mons get knocked off and not load too many of them in the first place in the teambuilder. You will never let a mon dependent on their item to be knocked off. On the contrary, It's a good part of meta imo as it helps in making progress and is not oppressive.

5) King's Rock -

I would love to see this banned, honestly, but the only thing is that Serene Grace Iron Head or Air Slash has even higher chances of flinching. Every undesirable facets that applies to King's Rock applies to them as well like RNG, uncompetitive etc. The only thing is that Cloyster is more potent than the above 2 and has real sweeping potential if it does get the flinch. If we were talking about brokeness then I see the argument of Cloyster being more problematic but as the basis of argument here is uncompetitveness then I don't see why we are suspecting less than 50% while not 60%.

One argument I can see is that the above moves have the Flinch chance inherently while Cloyster does not but technically that makes it even worse as Cloyster needs an item for it while they can Flinch naturally. Don't get me wrong, I support the banning of King's Rock but this kind of just seems inconsistent to me is all.

6) Heatran -

I think this mon is alright too. While in theory this mon can beat nearly anything long term with it's Toxic Taunt set but it has middling speed, doesn't have reliable recovery. is vulnerable to hazards and relies on a 75% accurate move to do this. It is incredibly good and is still very effective despite having these drawbacks though. While it doesn't have any true counters, it has a decent amount of checks like Chomp, Dnite, Hydrei, Slowking, Fini, Urshifu, Pert (It can even switch with Flip turn to keep momentum) etc. You don't particularly need Shed Shell Pex to counter it. Not to mention the scores of fighting types and ground types that can outspeed and OHKO it on offense which is the safest option as the other mon are liable to fall to things like Nature Power in terrains, Sheer Power of Eruption, Power Herb Solar Beam etc. The thing is Tran can't do all this at once, requires support to pull these off, gives up moveslots and even items in some cases for these and still could be out offensed.

A mon that is very effective and must be kept in mind while team building but one that has sufficient reliable counter play.

7) Dragapult -

Another mon I don't find to be broken. I think very highly of this mon and made a post about rising it in VR. It truly is one of the most incredible mons in the tier and arguably even the most potent. There is absolutely no non-passive checks to this beast. The one and only issue is it's middling power but it can overcome that through choice items or Status Hexs. But still that is what makes it possible for HO teams to deal with. It just doesn't hit hard enough without the initial boost from specs or slowly stautsing and chipping down the team. HO teams need to be able to exploit any choice locked kill they suffer and they apply too much pressure for Pult to get it's Hex Status going. Against balance this lack of power is noticeable as Mons like Spdef Clef, Pex, Tran, Fini, Mandi etc. effectively can answer it multiple times a match. Pult can break past it's checks but can also be prevented from making progress by opposing team. The better plays better will win this exchange, which is a healthy interaction imo.

8) Volc-

Somewhat like Tran, has a lot of checks and can choose them as well. But it can't do everything at once and has a perfect counter in Tran which will always win 1v1 unless it got knock off early game or it doesn't have one Taunt or Toxic, which it will if you are trying to counter Volc with Tran. It is a mon that you have to keep in mind while team building but has effective and reliable counterplay. I don't think it is broken.

9) Magnezone -

This is an unpopular opinion but I also think Magnet Pull should have been banned. I agree that is manageable as it doesn't trap too much but the principal of trapping itself is uncompetitive and I would ban it even if you could trap just one mon. And it really is mostly used to trap Corvi and Ferro and now even Skarmory again so only 3, really very few but still finds itself to be one of the better mons and supports some of more effective teams around. That is how potent trapping really is. It doesn't matter even if you have to run a very mediocre mon as long as it does it's job. It doesn't matter than Zone is almost useless if those mons don't show up as it's team isn't exactly unhappy to see them not show up as they are trying to remove them in the first place.

Also it really is very effective at trapping Corvi when it does show up. Shed Shell is not a 100% as Zone teams often run Rilla and it loves to throw out knocks. You can't really avoid it in such a condition. Even if you do it a few times, it is entirely in their favor as they just need to do it once despite you running a item solely to prevent trapping, you still get trapped. Running speed isn't too feasible either as not only does Zone run speed itself so Corvi need a decent amount of investment for speed which makes it noticeably less bulkier but as Zone's sole reason for existing is trapping Corvi, that man will even go max speed if it becomes too commonplace which Corvi absolutely can't afford to creep. Ferro gets trapped by any speed Zone as long as it is Iron defense Body Press.

It can still help against other steels like Bish which could be removed by a Body Press predicting it to come in on a defog and then you can defog in peace. Scarf Kart can't click moves other than Sacred Sword freely, The rare Uturn less Scizor also get trapped making Zone a great partner for Kyurem.


That is the gist my point that trapping is just uncompetitive and even though Zone just traps steels, it still forces them to make awkward plays or risk just dying to Zone. It is not a good thing to allow trapping in any shape or form imo so I agree that it should have been banned.

It is not that it is overbearing or broken to the point of mons like Urshifu/Dracovish or even more apt comparisons like Gothitelle, or Dugtrio which could trap everything but trapping is still trapping even if it is just 3 mons but it can potentially go higher. For Example -

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 204-244 (59.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In either case your Mirror Coat KOs Tran back. Who is to say that you can't run this with Volc? As Volc really doesn't care about steels other than Tran, so it doesn't matter that this Zone can't trap other steels. You had a perfect counter to Volc to but lost because of trapping. Not saying it is particularly viable but just illustrating my point why trapping is bad.

Trapping really shouldn't be allowed in any capacity. It only trapping steels is not a argument I agree with.

Well that just about wraps up my thoughts on the major discussion points I have been seeing in the thread. Hope everyone has a good day!!

 

[Red Raven]

9) Magnezone -

This is an unpopular opinion but I also think Magnet Pull should have been banned. I agree that is manageable as it doesn't trap too much but the principal of trapping itself is uncompetitive and I would ban it even if you could trap just one mon. And it really is mostly used to trap Corvi and Ferro and now even Skarmory again so only 3, really very few but still finds itself to be one of the better mons and supports some of more effective teams around. That is how potent trapping really is. It doesn't matter even if you have to run a very mediocre mon as long as it does it's job. It doesn't matter than Zone is almost useless if those mons don't show up as it's team isn't exactly unhappy to see them not show up as they are trying to remove them in the first place.

Also it really is very effective at trapping Corvi when it does show up. Shed Shell is not a 100% as Zone teams often run Rilla and it loves to throw out knocks. You can't really avoid it in such a condition. Even if you do it a few times, it is entirely in their favor as they just need to do it once despite you running a item solely to prevent trapping, you still get trapped. Running speed isn't too feasible either as not only does Zone run speed itself so Corvi need a decent amount of investment for speed which makes it noticeably less bulkier but as Zone's sole reason for existing is trapping Corvi, that man will even go max speed if it becomes too commonplace which Corvi absolutely can't afford to creep. Ferro gets trapped by any speed Zone as long as it is Iron defense Body Press.

It can still help against other steels like Bish which could be removed by a Body Press predicting it to come in on a defog and then you can defog in peace. Scarf Kart can't click moves other than Sacred Sword freely, The rare Uturn less Scizor also get trapped making Zone a great partner for Kyurem.


That is the gist my point that trapping is just uncompetitive and even though Zone just traps steels, it still forces them to make awkward plays or risk just dying to Zone. It is not a good thing to allow trapping in any shape or form imo so I agree that it should have been banned.

It is not that it is overbearing or broken to the point of mons like Urshifu/Dracovish or even more apt comparisons like Gothitelle, or Dugtrio which could trap everything but trapping is still trapping even if it is just 3 mons but it can potentially go higher. For Example -

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 204-244 (59.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In either case your Mirror Coat KOs Tran back. Who is to say that you can't run this with Volc? As Volc really doesn't care about steels other than Tran, so it doesn't matter that this Zone can't trap other steels. You had a perfect counter to Volc to but lost because of trapping. Not saying it is particularly viable but just illustrating my point why trapping is bad.

Trapping really shouldn't be allowed in any capacity. It only trapping steels is not a argument I agree with.

Well that just about wraps up my thoughts on the major discussion points I have been seeing in the thread. Hope everyone has a good day!!

This was exactly what I was trying to point out. Really hate it how I can never word my thoughts properly in these kinds of posts ffs

Anyway, I somewhat take back what I said that Magnezone is next to useless outside bullying its prey. Now that I think about it, it can actually do some decent work since the only ones that can safely come in on both its stabs is Zeraora, Galarian Slowking, Blissey and itself, unless I'm missing something. That's only if its using choice specs which would actually hurt quite a bit to offensive mons. Like with Heatran, Magnezone is revenge killed by literally every offensive mon in the tier but against defense, it can actually be quite irritating. Steel stab that is complimented by electric is really good so this thing can actually put a dent at just about anything offensive mon. It may be a different story if its not running specs but its stabs alone are irritating

I still think that despite Magnezone's flaws, the issue really isn't with Magnezone but rather with its ability. Trapping one single type might not be a big deal until you realize how much of the metagame the steel types actually stave off. I'm not sure if the other mons with the same ability as Zone are in ss but this one eyed metal thing just got the brunt of the blame because it's far better than other magnet pullers. I also agree that shed shell isn't a foolproof answer because metal birds, and to a lesser extent, durians, are among the better knock off sponges. While they don't appreciate losing their items, they can still do their jobs even if it is removed

Now, while I do think that trapping is uncompetitive due to the nature of making extremely risky plays just not to instantly lose to a certain mon, I am not gonna agree with trapping moves being uncompetitive because with trapping moves, you actually have to make an effort to trap the right target unlike with shadow tag or arena trap or even magnet pull where all you have to do is use one of the a million switch moves available, espcially teleport. With trapping abilities, if you trap the wrong one, you can simply switch out and try again when your opponent makes a mistake but with trapping moves, you have to force in your target or catch it on the switch. Heatran and sometimes Azumarill are probably the only ones that uses trap moves but again, they have to force in their targets and if they trap a wrong one, they can die to that target. For example, Heatran or Azu traps a Garchomp, now they have to run or they die and their target gets to live. Basically, you have to make a conscious effort of trapping your target using trapping moves instead of just putting yourself in a position where all you have to do is send your trapper out and near auto win. I'm not gonna be surprised if no one understands this since it is a bit confusing the way I worded this

 

[ausma]

Magnezone (and Magnet Pull) are definitely not broken.

Many arguments are being brought up regarding its impact on the tier and how it promotes something we've deemed uncompetitive even when the sample size is considerably decreased. However, a lot of these arguments do not understand the crucial difference in how Magnet Pull executes itself in comparison to something like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, as well as the primary abuser in question, how it chooses to make use of the ability, and how it uses its ability can awkwardly shift its value tremendously on a game-to-game basis.

The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.

If you really want to, you can technically trap Tran with an AV Mirror Coat Zone as well but that set can't trap anything else with the same set.

The big issue with this kind of observation is something that the above poster observes themselves: it can't trap anything else when it specializes. Sure, it can beat Heatran with an AV Mirror Coat set in theory, but what happens in the matchups where Heatran isn't there? It seems to lose to Ferrothorn and has trouble pressuring Corviknight; and hell, even if it wants to beat Heatran, it outright cannot if Magnezone has sustained any prior pressure, even from simply switching into Heatran, since it's reliant on being healthy to do its job. In most cases, using a set like this puts the user's team at a handicap.

Magnezone's Body Press set is considered to be Magnezone's best set because it not only beats Ferrothorn, but it can still reliably trap Skarmory and chipped Corviknight. What's more is that Magnezone with this set also has utility in beating other Pokemon like Zeraora (when already boosted) and Blissey, which gives it more value in a greater range of games since it is not a one-and-done set. The issue with its other sets is that they are one and done, if reliable. Magnezone itself lacks the longevity and the speed to find much value outside of being a matchup trapper. As a Steel-type, it is terrible and almost always requires another Steel-type to take on the heat due to its inherent specialization and complete inability to compress roles for teams. As a wallbreaker, Blissey and most other special walls give it a major run for its money as typically it is forced into 50/50s, either making it potentially dangerous or just a complete waste of momentum. Most of the time, it is a liability; the only reason it is considered good is that it can be a strong enabler for several Pokemon and easily remove key threats. Magnezone is not very useful outside of this purpose and lacks the traits necessary to make it a potent game-to-game presence when used as a specialized trapper.

 

[Jokler]

Magnezone (and Magnet Pull) are definitely not broken.

Many arguments are being brought up regarding its impact on the tier and how it promotes something we've deemed uncompetitive even when the sample size is considerably decreased. However, a lot of these arguments do not understand the crucial difference in how Magnet Pull executes itself in comparison to something like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, as well as the primary abuser in question, how it chooses to make use of the ability, and how it uses its ability can awkwardly shift its value tremendously on a game-to-game basis.

The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.



The big issue with this kind of observation is something that the above poster observes themselves: it can't trap anything else when it specializes. Sure, it can beat Heatran with an AV Mirror Coat set in theory, but what happens in the matchups where Heatran isn't there? It seems to lose to Ferrothorn and has trouble pressuring Corviknight; and hell, even if it wants to beat Heatran, it outright cannot if Magnezone has sustained any prior pressure, even from simply switching into Heatran, since it's reliant on being healthy to do its job. In most cases, using a set like this puts the user's team at a handicap.

Magnezone's Body Press set is considered to be Magnezone's best set because it not only beats Ferrothorn, but it can still reliably trap Skarmory and chipped Corviknight. What's more is that Magnezone with this set also has utility in beating other Pokemon like Zeraora (when already boosted) and Blissey, which gives it more value in a greater range of games since it is not a one-and-done set. The issue with its other sets is that they are one and done, if reliable. Magnezone itself lacks the longevity and the speed to find much value outside of being a matchup trapper. As a Steel-type, it is terrible and almost always requires another Steel-type to take on the heat due to its inherent specialization and complete inability to compress roles for teams. As a wallbreaker, Blissey and most other special walls give it a major run for its money as typically it is forced into 50/50s, either making it potentially dangerous or just a complete waste of momentum. Most of the time, it is a liability; the only reason it is considered good is that it can be a strong enabler for several Pokemon and easily remove key threats. Magnezone is not very useful outside of this purpose and lacks the traits necessary to make it a potent game-to-game presence when used as a specialized trapper.

See that is my point exactly. With it's Body Press set it is reliably able to trap the 3 steels that you mentioned.(Please don't take that Heatran point too seriously, it was just to prove that you can potentially trap other steel if you absolutely tech Zone that way, not an argument that Zone can trap all steel types. I will continue my argument with only the Body Press set in mind.)

With that out if the way, my point is that even if it just traps just these 3 mons, the trapping of these 3 mons itself is uncompetitive. All the things that we talk about like causing 50/50 entirely in favour of the Trapper, causing awkward plays etc. still apply to these 3.

Zone might not be useful in every single match but both Corvi and Ferro are comfortably top 10 in usage so it does fulfill it's trapping purpose in a lot of matches. It is not consist in every game but it is not downright matchup fishing either.

Even if these mons don't appear, the Zone's team doesn't mind that too much as they wanted to just remove them in the first place. Their goal isn't to make Zone put in work but to just abuse the absence of the steel birds and Ferro. When they don't appear, there will be other mons in place of them, no doubt, but Zone teams can generally deal with them and just appreciate the removal of these 3 when they do appear so much that they are willing to play with a ,Zone, a dead slot in other games.

For example -

The Toxic Protect DIB EQ Melly set is stone walled by these 3 mons but in their absence this is an incredibly threatening set to face. Pex is 2HKOed by EQ and the slowtwins get Toxiced and have to be vary of DIB flinch. Zapdos gets seriously whittled by Toxic protect while it can EQ on roost as well. This also fills the slot of the traditional steel which Zone couldn't fill.

Another example is DD Roost Wingbeat, EQ Dnite which actually loses to both Corvi and Ferro but is similarly threatening in their absence.

Lele doesn't have to hit Focus Blasts with Rocks up and Chip on Corvi, Exca can potentially sweep on Sand. Chomp can run give up Fire Move. Even some thing like Sub Roost Kyurem appreciates the removal of a Pressure mon. Slowtwins appreciate an absorber of Future sight being gone etc.

Zone also is potentially great at the Hazard game as it can trap Corvi, arguably the best defogger, Ferro and Skarm, the 2 best spikers in the game, and can pull the double into Bish switching in to defog to remove it for good and defog comfortably.

Writing this did make me realise one thing though, even though Zone traps so few mons, it is so effective because these are some of the most important mons it the tier, which on being trapped, open up dangerous scenarios for the user. It's not like it is being used to trap trash like Regieleki.

It won't have been so good unless these mons where who they are. I few months back it was deservedly RU, but especially Corvi but also Ferro to a lesser have risen in a past few months so Zone is back in business.

My point was to illustrate how useful and effective just trapping these mons is to the point that It doesn't need to trap other steels or even do anything outside of that role unless and until it can do this reliably, which it can. It is not to the point of matchup fishing like Suicine or Primarina and the drawback of being dead weight in other matches is worth it.

Now, I feel like I have established it clearly that Zone is a very useful mon with a unique and important role which I honestly think even the above posters will agree with completely. TBF nobody denied that in the first place that Zone is good and they probably have even greater knowledge of Zone's position in the meta game than I do but I think people fixated too much on how many steel types it can trap and how useless it is when these 3 don't show up which is completely fair and I also agree with this sentiment. I just want to make 2 small comparisons to illustrate who just trapping even mons is uncompetitive and what we generally considered to be Banworthy.

1) After Dugtrio was banned initially people used Diglett as it was just good enough to trap Tran, Kyurem Black and Ttar. Even earlier this gen people used Giga Drain Trapinch with Vish as it was just good enough to trap Seismitoad and Pex. Despite their limited usefulness and glaring flaws greater than even Zone's they were used. Technically they did have Arena Trap as ausma noted so they could trap other things but their stats were simply so outclassed in OU, they couldn't actually trap anything else unless HEAVILY weakened. They were still banned though on the principal of being unhealthy though.

2) Recently Shadow Tag was banned in Ubers as Gothietelle could trap NDM and Erernatus both unless they ran some weird offensive/defensive sets. Ubers is different than OU, no doubt, and these mons were much more omnipresent than the 3 Zone trappable steels in OU and Goth was much more consistent but the very rough ideas are same a outclassed mon being used solely to trap a few defensive mons, being matchup dependent.

While not completely accurate, the comparisons are kinda similar to Zone situation. They may be lot more consistent overall and may have been enabling more broken strategies but the basic gist of them being matchup dependent, only trapping 2-3 mons and being a dead slot in a lot of matches is similar.

Zone is functioning similarly albeit only against the 3 steels mentioned above but still. It also enables mons like a trapper is expected to. So why is not considered unhealthy, as the number of mons being trapped or the trapper's usefulness outside of that role have not been historically assessed.

I don't want to spam in this thread either as this is my second extremely long post and I might even be missing something here as by my logic Pursuit should have been banned as well and it is MUCH more effective than Magnet Pull but I have never ever seen anyone talk about it, let alone want it banned.

 

[Clone]

Magnezone has been a staple in OU one way or another since BW. It's even used here and there in DPP but BW was when it started to become frequent.

It has not been OP for the past 10 years, nor is it OP now. To say it is shows a lack of understanding the metagame. It reliably traps three Pokémon: Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Skarmory. And two of those (Ferro and Corv), aren't even guaranteed (+ Body Press Skarm does a good chunk too). ID Body Press is the only set that can trap and kill Ferro, and Corv has U-Turn. If these criteria aren't met, Magnezone is effectively useless. It does not have a niche in the tier outside of trapping these three mons.

No, Magnezone trapping 3 mons in a tier does not make it uncompetitive, no matter how common those mons may be. If you're facing Magnezone + *insert breaker here* and your only way of dealing with *insert breaker here* is one of those 3 steels, that's just a bad match-up. It happens. OU is full of threats and you can't account for everything with only 6 mons. That being said, that doesn't mean you can't accommodate for a threat with other mons on the team. If, for example, your only way of preventing Rillaboom from 6-0ing you is slapping a Corviknight on your team, that's just poor building and you're gonna get punished by Rillazone. That's poor team composition.

I don't know where this entitlement is coming from that you shouldn't have any trapping at all in Pokémon. It's been around since the days of ADV. It's part of the game. If the trapping is OP, like in the case of Shadow Tag, it gets banned, like it has for the past 3 gens. Trapping is a viable strategy. It has the potential to be overpowered like anything else, but it only becomes OP when it is restrictive on counterplay and team-building. Magnezone fits neither of those criteria. The three steels are still very common, and there is sufficient counterplay in OU to combat Magnezone (read: its useless outside of trapping these Pokémon).

I don't know why this is a discussion. Magnezone isn't OP, and there are far more pressing matters in this tier that I feel need to be addressed before something like this even crosses my mind as a problem.

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

I don't think it's really about Magnezone being OP, which I don't think anyone really believes, but more that Magnet Pull, just like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, is an uncompetitive element.

Every turn you have up to 9 options to choose from as a player (4 attacks, 5 switches depending on how much of your team is still alive) and you weigh these options against the <=9 options that your opponent can choose from to make the most progress in a match. Trapping abilities effectively remove 5 of these 9 options thus taking away control of your ways of making progress in a way you planned to do.

Magnet Pull has fewer possible victims, but Dugtrio for example was also only used to remove specific threats that block you from winning with whatever else you have in the back. Once the trapper is in vs what you specifically need removed, the result is the same.

This is also different from how e.g. Pursuit worked as you still could evaluate your options and choose to go for a switch and take double damage, or stay in, get off an attack and possibly even live. Though counterplay is more limited as opposed to when the move isn't present. With trapping abilities, you don't even have that trade-off to choose from.
(The opponent also had to select the move. Bisharp 50/50's with Sucker/Pursuit vs your EQ Lati were really fun ...)

Now don't get me wrong. I actually really like Zone and would be sad to see it go. But if the other trapping abilities were banned for being uncompetitive, then Arena Trap is too and saying otherwise is kinda hypocrite or at least inconsistent.

 

[Katy]

I don't think it's really about Magnezone being OP, which I don't think anyone really believes, but more that Magnet Pull, just like Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, is an uncompetitive element.

To the topic of the devil in the room, which in my opinion isn't a devil at all:

Magnezones Magnet Pull isn't anything as OP as you believe Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are. Magnet Pull solely traps Steel-types and that's about it. While Magnezone traps them pretty comfotably and can reliably remove some of them, it still ins't an uncompetetive aspect of the tier and policywise at all.

The Magnezone user still has to be wary about the aspect, that while Magnezone is really good at trapping Steels-types, it can get worn down pretty easily. Magnezone has to be wary about different aspects in trapping them. The different aspects are as followed:

1. Speed creeping Magnezone (Magnezone isn't the fastest Pokemon overall initially, unless it runs a Choice Scarf to threaten Kartana)
2. Coverage against Magnezone (Fighting-type or Ground-type coverage)
3. Item dosposal in forme of Knock Off
4. or STAB moves targeted at Magnezone
5. furthermore Magnezones typing, while being good, still leaves it vulnerable to a plethora of neutral moves

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap work entirely different from Magnet Pull. The amount of Pokemon Magnezone traps is pretty reduced compared to the former two abilities in Shadow Tag and Arena Trap.

Shadow Tag enables the opposing Pokemon to trap nearly everything on your team, unless you run Baton Pass (which in itself is banned), U-turn or Volt Switch, or if the Pokemon is holding a Shed Shell or is a Ghost-type.
Arena Trap is basically the same but with a different effect, it can not trap Flying-types of Pokemon with Levitate. Or with the use of the move Baton Pass (which again, is banned as a whole in most (later) formats).

This leaves us to the conclusion, that we have to prepare for either of them with a very limited amount of counterplay to it. Based on the smogon wide clause, those two abilities are pretty controversial in this aspect and deemed broken in most competetive aspects, and therefore they got banned in a large portion of tiers / formats, to preserve a healthy metagame and competetive structure in these said tiers.

Now to Magnet Pulls Difference to the above two mentioned abilities. Magnet Pulls array of trapping Pokemon is heavily reduced to only Steel-type Pokemon, and even then those Steel-types aren't that vulnerable to Magnezone in the first place, as explained above. This leaves the counterplay to Magnezone (Magnet Pull) to a large portion on how to handle it. Be it with playing around that threat, removing its item via Knock Off, or just simply speed creeping Magnezone, which in itself isn't that difficult, as Magnezone has a pretty low initial base of 60, which means most Steel-types can outpace it naturally or just speed creep it if they are worried about Magnezone.

Other issues Magnezone itself faces is a pretty fast metagame with hard hitters, so it needs support to be brought in safely and it has to be executed correctly and not in a radged attempt, or else you'll lose your Magnezone early on or it'll be weakened, which makes an attempt to trap a Steel-type later pretty difficult.

More issues Magnezone faces are entry hazards, while Stealth Rocks might not effect it much due to its own Steel-typing, Spikes can be a very large hindering aspect for it, whittling and weaken Magnezone pretty fast in the progress of the game.

While admittingly this Pokemon is pretty good at what it does, it comes with a significant amount of flaws, which have to be considered when building with Magnezone, so a good amount of support should be considered. And even then, each set faces different issues to the point where some sets even face overlapping counterplay to Magnezone itself. With the heavy influx of defensive Ground-types such as Landorus-T, Tankchomp, and the heavy influx of Pokemon with great coverage, Magnezone (while being a good Pokemon) still faces some issues.

Conclusion:
Even tho Magnezone is a pretty good Pokemon in itself and has stand its ground in OU once again, I do not believe it is broken / OP / uncompetetive. The amount it traps is pretty limited and it has to be brought in cautiously, with the right support, and plenty of Pokemon can handle it effectively, even the Steel-types in itself aren't straight up super-prone to it. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap on the other hand add an incompetetive aspect to the table, with a very limited amount of counterplay.

 

[Martin]

Trapping isn’t inherently uncompetitive and it drives me insane that this is an actual narrative that exists. Stopping something switching out on its own achieves nothing if you can’t convert that into an advantage. In certain ways, having the option open to you makes the game *more* competitive, giving players more versatile options for punishing their opponent for misplaying (and beyond Magnezone’s standard pool of targets, it can provide an interesting option to counterplay stuff like Kartana or Excadrill if you spec it for those specific targets), but it ultimately depends on the options available to the trapper in question and how easily+consistently they can execute their game plan. This is part of why I’ve always been against sweeping bans on trapping abilities as opposed to Pokémon level bans on broken trappers (<— correct terminology), but that is neither here nor there.

The point is: Magnezone (and Alolan Golem+Magneton in older gens) are excellent examples of competitive and healthy trappers. So what, you have to choose between Helmet/Lefties and Shed Shell in builder (Shell is probably not worth it 95% of the time because Corv+Skarm are Knock Off magnets anyway), and if your team isn’t properly prepared for something beyond a trappable Steel-type then you will (rightfully) get blown up for it. This doesn’t make them unhealthy or uncompetitive, this just means you need to learn the matchup and keep their specific utility in mind when playing against them. Magnezone is not a particularly easy Pokémon to manoeuvre into position outside of cores with smth like Rillaboom, and when it does end up KOing its target, it is among the most exploitable Pokémon in the game following the resultant drop in tempo because ground+fire+fighting are utterly gross type weaknesses to have, creating free turns for Pokémon like Heatran, Urshifu-R, Zamazenta-C, Excadrill, Lando-T, Garchomp, etc. to capitalise on.

 

[Jokler]

See, Zone IS not OP and no one can make a claim otherwise as well. It's not that Rillazone is unbeatable even if Corvi gets trapped. It's not that Zone can even trap these mons automatically without some positioning on it's user's part but it is reliably able to trap these 3 particular mons and a competent player will almost consistently trap these 3 whenever they face them.

All the counterplay arguments are similar to what been made to earlier trappers and the same thing applies here, that the interaction is entirely skewed in the Zone player's favour, the trapper, albeit with a MUCH smaller sample size.

Trapping in a game that's based on the very foundation of switching is definitely problematic. People are saying this is entitlement or a false narrative but this is a sentiment that is echoed throughout whenever trapping abilities are looked into. Having to either make dangerous plays, running multiple counters, or risking losing to being trapped is not a healthy component.

People are giving it's list of drawbacks and admittedly there are lot but they are all overshadowed by the fact that Zone is a trapper, not a regular mon. It's not a case of running a subpar mon and potentially not getting anything in return. It is able to do it's job almost a 100% of time. It doesn't matter if it even loses to all 5 mons because that one mons will still get trapped. Nobody can deny that Zone, a majority of times, gets the trap off. In a way it is actually a hyper consistent mon. Someone mentioned that trapping is only broken when the absence of the trapped mon can be exploited. The absence of these 3 steels in OU ARE highly exploitable. Once it gets it's trap off then it really isn't useful in most cases so you can either keep it as a sack or just let it faint to get a fresh switch in so those mons coming in isn't the end of the world.

It had a high 56% win rate despite a high usage of a total of 25 times in SPL. That is indicative of it's value. Despite having so many weakness it can just do it's job
extremely consistently.

One thing I will like to mention here that even King's Rock is being looked at. That is used by one non OU mon and is solely RNG. On the other hand Zone doesn't rely on luck and can trap almost every game it encounters it's targets. The former is solo cheese strat while the latter can support extremely effective builds that abuse the absence of the defensive pillars of the meta game. Not the exact same thing but even flinching is looked at while not trapping is something that is just weird to me.

TLDR; Zone may have a lot of weaknesses but they are overshadowed by it's hyper consistent ability to do what it's there for. It's counterplay is limited for the 3 steel types and is similar to what we have deemed unreasonable for other defensive mons against the other 2 trapping abilities. This reliable trapping is effectively abusable on effective team builds. Trapping is genuinely broken as even if the amount of mons to be trapped is less, the effective usage is same of removing particular roadblocks for your wall breakers.

This being said though, I am just giving my side of the argument as I see it. If the majority is not in favour of the ban then it would stay and I am not opposed to that but I just felt that people were giving it's weaknesses, it's apparent counterplay, calling it's trapping healthy which I wanted to give my thoughts on as it still does it's job despite all this. Spamming this with ban Zone arguments is not my intention.

 

[Vatn]

On the subject of trapping, I want to talk about this mon:

While I believe Dugtrio to be broken due to a combination of factors (Arena Trap and the atk and spd to abuse Arena Trap), I really do not think that Diglett is broken, and that it should eventually be retested. Unlike Dugtrio, Diglett lacks the necessary stats to really abuse Arena Trap. 55 atk VS 100 atk is a large enough margin where Adamant DIglett fails to OHKO mons it would like to trap, and 95 spd VS 120 spd is also a fairly large gap, so much so that Diglett's relatively mediocre spd tier leaves it outsped by mons it would want to trap. Because of these stat deficits, DIglett is more dependent on Focus Sash to actually do its job of trapping, but even with the prominence of Heavy-Duty Boots, hazards are still everywhere, further reducing Diglett's trapping capabilities. It should be noted that moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch are fairly common in the meta (Teleport. however, does not work against Arena Trap). This works both ways for Diglett, as on one hand mons that it would like to trap (e.g. Tapu Koko) can simply U-Turn out, but on the other hand Diglett is able to be pivoted in by these moves to trap a mon safely.

Looking at all the A tiered mons on the viability rankings thread, the only mons that Diglett can reliably trap are Heatran (needs to be pivoted in, as Magma Storm can blow through the sash), Magnezone, and Volcarona (assuming hazards are not set up, otherwise it just gets outsped by +1 Volcarona and dies). For what it is worth, Diglett cannot even beat Heatran and Magnezone if the ever-popular Rillaboom or the less-popular Tapu-Bulu has set up Grassy Surge. Unlike Dugtrio, which has the stats to function, Diglett would not be able to perform as a competent and reliable revenge-killer due to its mediocre spd tier as well as overall lack of power.

Overall, I disagree with the notion that Arena Trap as a whole is broken. Instead, I would argue that it is due to a combination of traits that makes Dugtrio overpowered for the OU tier, and because Diglett does not possess this same combination of traits, it would be far from overbearing in OU. The same argument could also be applied to Trapinch, though I am unfamiliar with its applications, so I will abstain from debating that myself. Essentially, while it is true that Diglett can prevent mons from switching out, the amount of mons that Diglett can actually reliably beat in the process is limited.

Here are calcs that prove the relevance of Diglett's stat deficiencies compared to Dugtrio.

Why Diglett sucks

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
While both can trap Heatran in regular conditions, if Grassy Terrain is present, only Dugtrio can reliably beat Heatran.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Diglett outspeeds Bisharp, Bisharp has Sucker Punch, so Diglett loses this matchup.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
With chip, Dugtrio can switch in and trap Slowking. Diglett cannot do the same.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-134 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dugtrio beats Toxapex, Diglett cannot. Plain and simple.

There are more instances of where the power difference is notable, specifically on how much easier and reliably Dugtrio can revenge kill mons than Diglett can.

 

[The Funky Reason]

The issue of Magnet Pull's smaller sample size is not the fact it's a smaller sample size, but rather how it forces Magnezone to operate. Magnet Pull's smaller sample size forces an inherent specialization in its sets since Magnezone lacks the natural strengths to freely remove every Steel-type on a whim, which is why it is considered a huge matchup fish. This is also why the drawback of Magnet Pull holds it back from abusing trapping in far more powerful, versatile ways like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, which can cover much more ground since the range of targets is far more realistic to get game-to-game value out of. Since all Arena Trap users are Ground-type, and 2/3 of them having a good (and even phenomenal) speed tier, actually doing the job and removing numerous crucial threats without any need to specialize gives it high value in nearly any matchup. Shadow Tag users can select several targets which they beat naturally with their typing and bulk and either set up, slowly wear them down or outright remove them with little-to-no no specialization required. Magnezone, on the other hand, is forced to dive into its movepool if it wants to remove specific targets that its STABs cannot outright beat, and in doing so, is forced to specialize its set to cover one or two specific Steel-type Pokemon, which can not only decrease its game-to-game value in a party slot but can even decrease its value for things it should, in theory, be able to beat by virtue of its typing anyway.

So you say how magnet pull is fine not because of its sample size but "how it is forced to operate", but then talk about how it has to specialize and remove only a few threats, and that's kind of match-up fishing. I think you understand how it comes across when you say it's not the trapping pool, and then talk about how the trapping pool holds magnet pull back. Furthermore, you then talk about how magnezone's stats and movepool play into it being fair. Conveniently in your post you don't give shadow taggers and arena trappers the same treatment. Trapinch had to specialize to remove toad, had to be healthy to do it, and unlike magnezone can't switch directly into what it is trapping. The way you talk about how for the AV set magnezone needs to be healthy to even pull that off, trapinch literally has the exact same issue because of its speed stat and horrible bulk. You guys refuse to address the other more limited trappers honestly because they make your argument around keeping magnezone really weak.

I've personally given up on smogon's logical consistency because it has always struggled with it, and people don't particularly care if they are at the end of the day, but I think it makes smogon look horrible to pick and choose what it likes and doesn't like instead of having a logically consistent banlist.

 

[TailGlowVM]

So you say how magnet pull is fine not because of its sample size but "how it is forced to operate", but then talk about how it has to specialize and remove only a few threats, and that's kind of match-up fishing. I think you understand how it comes across when you say it's not the trapping pool, and then talk about how the trapping pool holds magnet pull back. Furthermore, you then talk about how magnezone's stats and movepool play into it being fair. Conveniently in your post you don't give shadow taggers and arena trappers the same treatment. Trapinch had to specialize to remove toad, had to be healthy to do it, and unlike magnezone can't switch directly into what it is trapping. The way you talk about how for the AV set magnezone needs to be healthy to even pull that off, trapinch literally has the exact same issue because of its speed stat and horrible bulk. You guys refuse to address the other more limited trappers honestly because they make your argument around keeping magnezone really weak.

I've personally given up on smogon's logical consistency because it has always struggled with it, and people don't particularly care if they are at the end of the day, but I think it makes smogon look horrible to pick and choose what it likes and doesn't like instead of having a logically consistent banlist.

Dugtrio had to specialise to trap different threats using sets like Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Z-Crystals (in gen 7) and Focus Sash, and it couldn't directly switch in to most of the Pokemon it wanted to beat, so I don't see why that is different to Diglett and Trapinch.

On the subject of trapping, I want to talk about this mon:
View attachment 335495
While I believe Dugtrio to be broken due to a combination of factors (Arena Trap and the atk and spd to abuse Arena Trap), I really do not think that Diglett is broken, and that it should eventually be retested. Unlike Dugtrio, Diglett lacks the necessary stats to really abuse Arena Trap. 55 atk VS 100 atk is a large enough margin where Adamant DIglett fails to OHKO mons it would like to trap, and 95 spd VS 120 spd is also a fairly large gap, so much so that Diglett's relatively mediocre spd tier leaves it outsped by mons it would want to trap. Because of these stat deficits, DIglett is more dependent on Focus Sash to actually do its job of trapping, but even with the prominence of Heavy-Duty Boots, hazards are still everywhere, further reducing Diglett's trapping capabilities. It should be noted that moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch are fairly common in the meta (Teleport. however, does not work against Arena Trap). This works both ways for Diglett, as on one hand mons that it would like to trap (e.g. Tapu Koko) can simply U-Turn out, but on the other hand Diglett is able to be pivoted in by these moves to trap a mon safely.

Looking at all the A tiered mons on the viability rankings thread, the only mons that Diglett can reliably trap are Heatran (needs to be pivoted in, as Magma Storm can blow through the sash), Magnezone, and Volcarona (assuming hazards are not set up, otherwise it just gets outsped by +1 Volcarona and dies). For what it is worth, Diglett cannot even beat Heatran and Magnezone if the ever-popular Rillaboom or the less-popular Tapu-Bulu has set up Grassy Surge. Unlike Dugtrio, which has the stats to function, Diglett would not be able to perform as a competent and reliable revenge-killer due to its mediocre spd tier as well as overall lack of power.

Overall, I disagree with the notion that Arena Trap as a whole is broken. Instead, I would argue that it is due to a combination of traits that makes Dugtrio overpowered for the OU tier, and because Diglett does not possess this same combination of traits, it would be far from overbearing in OU. The same argument could also be applied to Trapinch, though I am unfamiliar with its applications, so I will abstain from debating that myself. Essentially, while it is true that Diglett can prevent mons from switching out, the amount of mons that Diglett can actually reliably beat in the process is limited.

Here are calcs that prove the relevance of Diglett's stat deficiencies compared to Dugtrio.

Why Diglett sucks

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
While both can trap Heatran in regular conditions, if Grassy Terrain is present, only Dugtrio can reliably beat Heatran.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Diglett outspeeds Bisharp, Bisharp has Sucker Punch, so Diglett loses this matchup.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
With chip, Dugtrio can switch in and trap Slowking. Diglett cannot do the same.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-134 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dugtrio beats Toxapex, Diglett cannot. Plain and simple.

There are more instances of where the power difference is notable, specifically on how much easier and reliably Dugtrio can revenge kill mons than Diglett can.

Try giving Diglett an item like Choice Band or Choice Scarf, which is what Dugtrio did. I think you'll find it traps more Dugtrio targets then if you calc it.