Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[shadowpea]

Ban boots. This is literally why I think boots is fucking bullshit. Volcarona would be far easier to get rid of if it actually gets punished for switching in. Fucking gamefreak and their stupid Charizard fetish

Don't ban boots. This is literally why I think boots are completely fine. Volcarona would be borderline unviable or at least will struggle greatly if it actually gets punished for switching in. Thanks gamefreak and their amazing Charizard fetish (not really but Volcarona likes it so I like it).

 

[Fighting game enthusiast]

Now that we are talking about problematic moves and items, I would like to talk about knock off.

I think knock off is a badly designed move for singles (especially with the lack of z-moves and megas) that forces progress in a very easy and direct manner. Its popularity is absurd, pretty much every pokemon that has access to the move uses it; from sweepers to wall breakers to defensive and utility mons. I mean even Alakazam in UU uses it, which by itself I think it says a lot about the questionable design of the move and its respective use in our metagames.

There have been other moves like stealth rock that were (and still are to a degree) extremely popular in the past, but at least there are ways to interact with the move that allow you to stop the progress if u make the right plays, like defog and rapid spin before it. With knock off it feels like there is no alternative but to accept that you will lose a core component of ur team (and yes, even lefties on pex are an important component) at least once knowing that your opponent did not even make a read or position their mons correctly, they just knew that by clicking that move *something* would get crippled.

After playing for a year and getting to 1900s, then trying out vgc and now coming back to singles, I must say that there are many glaring problems with our way to play that I do not understand how we accept them without discussing them more, knock off is one of these problems

and in good third world country fashion, sorry for my bad english and thank you for reading, I hope I am not the only one who feels this way about knock off.

 

[Totomon]

Now that we are talking about problematic moves and items, I would like to talk about knock off.

I definetively agree that knock off, especially in SS OU, is an incredible move, basically every team has at least one knock off user and it is a very effective way to force progress on matches.
However apart from that I genuinly dont see where this dicussion could lead, are we suggesting that we should ban knock off? What would the ban of knock off accomplish? It would only make matches slower and staler, it would lead to a more brainless gameplay and lazy teambuilding without any sort of significant reward.
Does knock off hold items back? No actually no, boots are incredibly dominant and some people want them banned, which clearly means that knock off isnt this broken force that you seem to be describing
This isnt even a situation of "broken check broken", removing knock off just because it doesnt let every mon freely switch in without a risk doesnt make sense...
Personally I belive that the current dynamic of knock off and boots is very healthy, and even if we dont have a literal knock absorber like past gen (even though zama might be unbanned) mons like pex and tangrowth are functional enough to prevent knock off from doing furhter progress.
I dont want to undermine your experience as a player and knock off might be the best move in the game, but banning knock off will literally accomplish nothing.

 

[vNatFly]

idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)

 

[glava222]

idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)

melmetal is pretty good, as Double iron bash wrecks kyurem through sub, and you dont have to worry about much except for possible earth power, which isn't the most common of it if I rememmber right

 

[TailGlowVM]

idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)

Scizor counters Kyurem, as does Blissey when you have Teleport + either Dragapult (to revenge kill it through a Substitute) or something that is faster, takes one hit, and can OHKO after removing the Substitute. I also tried Choice Scarf Kommo-o to revenge kill it through the Substitute with Clanging Scales, but wouldn't recommend that unless you are bored.

More generally, the best thing is to have something that scouts the set like Clefable and have separate answers for Specs and SubRoost (for example, Volcarona walls and sets up on SubRoost but can't switch into Specs Draco Meteor).

 

[sunbhie]

idk if this question goes here; but I was curious because this is starting to make me tilt. I am sure you guys are all aware of sub roost Kyurem being a prominent threat right now; even with mons like Blissey which is a "counter" you would still end up losing because of Kyurem's PP stalling nature. I was curious what others have been using to deal with it because I am starting to think this thing is broken because nothing is working (again, sorry if this question doesnt go here.. or if its boring)

Blissey doesn't lose to subroost kyurem, you just stall out all his moves with soft boiled.

 

[vNatFly]

Blissey doesn't lose to subroost kyurem, you just stall out all his moves with soft boiled.

uh soft boiled only has 10 PP and freeze dry has 20. also, remember, kyurem runs pressure

 

[Finchinator]

Pressure doesn’t impact recovery moves, but regardless Kyurem mainly dislikes Blissey because of Teleport loops. You can either waste 2 PP for 1 by Teleporting out and then swapping back in OR you can bring in something faster to KO it like Infiltrator Dragapult. It’s still an awkward sequence and it leads to predictable play that Kyurem teams can take advantage of, but offensively, Kyurem is absolutely contained in that scenario.

 

[Yourwelcomethanku]

uh soft boiled only has 10 PP and freeze dry has 20. also, remember, kyurem runs pressure
View attachment 333488

Blissey actually has 16PP and kyruem 32PP. PP maxed lol

 

[Abhi]

Hello there
Since we're talking about moves, I'd like to bring up Trick, because I am having too much fun with it.

^good song​

Trick is a move that seems simple enough, the user swaps its item with the foe, but it is so much more than that. Its the ultimate fuck you in pokemon; being able to completely ruin some pokemon while being able to severely hinder others, its amazing. Theres a lot of good abusers of trick in the current tier Scarf Tapu Fini, Sticky Barb Clefable, and Blacephalon and a bunch more niche ones of which Assault Vest Loppuny is probably my favourite(I know Loppuny gets Switcheroo and not Trick but they're literally the same move). This move is godly, and is probably my favourite check to set up sweepers usually with the combination of Choice Scarf, Trick can also cripple users checks very well usually leaving them in a vulnerable position and often unable to check threats. I'll now be going into different Trick/Switcheroo users that I like to use.

Tapu Fini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Trick
- Defog
Tapu Fini is probably the best user of Trick in the current meta, since it can be a soft check to many threats like Heatran, Dragapult and Urshifu-R as well act as a more unexpected form of speed control. It can also use Defog rather reliably since it can force enough switches against common Stealth Rock users like Landorus-T, Garchomp and Heatran. Then comes Trick which is what makes me like this mon as much as I do, it's amazing and pairs great with pokemon that abuse its ability to trick some of its defensive switch ins like Blissey, Toxapex and Ferrothorn, namely Dragapult and Kyurem who really appreciate these mons being crippled. Scarf Tapu Fini also acts as a good check to Volcarona no matter it's set since its able to completely stop it in its tracks with Trick while getting Heavy-Duty Boots in return removing its hazard weakness.​

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat / Psychic
- Trick
Everybody was clowning on this clown until it got used in ost finals, now it's still clowned on but less so. This clown is absolutely brutal, its base 151 SpA makes its Shadow Balls and Flamethrowers are hard to switch into with the combination of Trick which can make switching into this clown very hard, it's a real IT situation (it's even a ghost type). Overheat makes this Clown so hard to wall especially with a Choice Specs, which although removes its ability to snowball late game while also being incredibly fast is still very good to severely dent the foe. Trick makes this pokemon just so good, None of its checks appreciate being Tricked nor do they fare well after being tricked, it is brutal; this makes it a great partner for Dragapult since it really appreciates Blacephalons ability to cripple common Ghost-resistant pokemon. I even have a team with it.​

Lopunny @ Assault Vest
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- U-turn
- Magic Coat / Ice Punch
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
This waifu-like pokemon is actually so funny to use in battle and I've been experimenting with it recently, it often leaves the opposing defensive core crippled leaving them unable to do much against its teammates. Lopunnys ability to bait in pokemon like Corviknight, Zapdos and Skarmory and cripple them is very useful for pokemon like Swords Dance Garchomp and Rillaboom, however be sure to not use Knock Off with Rillaboom while against these pokemon since that ruins the entire point of Lopunny. Magic Coat is pretty good in my experience since it can ruin attempts by Landorus-T and other Stealth Rock users to try to set up on it, while trying to force it out. Ice Punch is also pretty nice since it can deal with Landorus-T and Garchomp rather well while also inviting in Skarmory and Corviknight so it can Trick them. Using this on Hazard stack is very fun since it very often baits in defog users, although smarter players tend to scout for a Switcheroo since it is known for its Assault Vest shenanigans.

Anyways that's all I have to say about these mons and trick, Bye!​

 

[Finchinator]

The surge in item displacement this generation is largely a reaction to the departure of mega stones and Z crystals, which occupied 2 item slots on most teams last generation in some capacity. Being able to Trick or Knock Off all 6 Pokemon makes these moves far more valuable in the early game and in general. Abh does a great job outlining their viability and it is always amusing seeing occasional counterplay such as running your own Trick Clefable to minimize the impact, Sticky Hold Gastrodon to deter Trick usage, or Assault Vest users to lock Clefable types into Trick.

As Abh outlines, Scarf Tapu Fini is a great, surprise Trick user in the metagame. It also offers great support to offensive teams that one cannot underestimate between Defog and Misty Terrain. I think Trick + Black Sludge on Gengar and Galarian Slow can also be a comically good combination, even if gimmicky, that is worth noting in this conversation as well.

 

[KittenLasers]

Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 120 SpA / 48 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / Nature Power
- Knock Off

An interesting tangrowth set I've been playing around with, pleasantly surprised that it wasn't nearly as gimmicky as I was expecting, but I'm not a particularly good player either so who knows. I came up with the set because while I saw how great defensively tangrowth looked to be, with the lack of hidden power ice I didn't like how it couldn't necessarily force out mons it's meant to check like garchomp and landorus-t. Special attack investment and choice specs solved this issue, with 120 spatk evs with a quiet nature letting leaf storm ko offensive garchomp (after lo recoil) and landorus. 48 spdef evs let it avoid the 2hko from pivot koko's dazzling gleam, rest going into def so it can do it's job more consistently. Getting knocked off is annoying but it doesn't really impact it's defensive capabilities and knock off + sludge bomb still give it a presence, letting it severely annoy flying types like torn-t, zapdo and mandibuzz. What's most interesting to me is the fact that I've even had tangrowth break past corviknight on one occasion, with focus blast being able to 2hko physically inclined variants and the fact tangrowth is actually slower means it can't safely roost. You would have to hit two focus blasts, though, and pressure means you can't really rely on that. Knock off also makes ferrothorn and heatran far less reliable in checking tangrowth throughout an extended match even without having to predict with focus blasts. I've also had toxapex's try to switch in and getting severely weakened by leaf storm, letting some teammates like zama-c sweep later on. Tangrowth can also check opposing zama-c's to an extent, not 2hko'd by an unboosted zama-c and can ko a chipped one with focus blast, or even ko it from full if it makes the mistake of clicking CC, which I've had on several occasions. Of course, you need to rely on focus blasts hitting. Koko is a great partner as it can switch into the flying types tangrowth dislikes while tangrowth can switch into the ground types koko dislikes and break down the opposing team like this.

120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 319-376 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 247-292 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 248-294 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



EDIT: Nature power paired with Koko (who it already pairs well with) is also a great option as suggested by TailGlowVm below, and the calcs seem very promising
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 268-316 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain: 302-356 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 183-216 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

 

[TailGlowVM]

Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 120 SpA / 48 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

An interesting tangrowth set I've been playing around with, pleasantly surprised that it wasn't nearly as gimmicky as I was expecting, but I'm not a particularly good player either so who knows. I came up with the set because while I saw how great defensively tangrowth looked to be, with the lack of hidden power ice I didn't like how it couldn't necessarily force out mons it's meant to check like garchomp and landorus-t. Special attack investment and choice specs solved this issue, with 120 spatk evs with a quiet nature letting leaf storm ko offensive garchomp (after lo recoil) and landorus. 48 spdef evs let it avoid the 2hko from pivot koko's dazzling gleam, rest going into def so it can do it's job more consistently. Getting knocked off is annoying but it doesn't really impact it's defensive capabilities and knock off + sludge bomb still give it a presence, letting it severely annoy flying types like torn-t, zapdo and mandibuzz. What's most interesting to me is the fact that I've even had tangrowth break past corviknight on one occasion, with focus blast being able to 2hko physically inclined variants and the fact tangrowth is actually slower means it can't safely roost. You would have to hit two focus blasts, though, and pressure means you can't really rely on that. Knock off also makes ferrothorn and heatran far less reliable in checking tangrowth throughout an extended match even without having to predict with focus blasts. I've also had toxapex's try to switch in and getting severely weakened by leaf storm, letting some teammates like zama-c sweep later on. Tangrowth can also check opposing zama-c's to an extent, not 2hko'd by an unboosted zama-c and can ko a chipped one with focus blast, or even ko it from full if it makes the mistake of clicking CC, which I've had on several occasions. Of course, you need to rely on focus blasts hitting. Koko is a great partner as it can switch into the flying types tangrowth dislikes while tangrowth can switch into the ground types koko dislikes and break down the opposing team like this.

120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 319-376 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 143-169 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
120+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Any reason for Tangrowth not to be Modest over Quiet when Knock Off is purely for the utility? You could also try Nature Power with Tapu Koko to have access to Thunderbolt to hit Corvknight, Mandibuzz and Skarmory more reliably.

 

[KittenLasers]

Any reason for Tangrowth not to be Modest over Quiet when Knock Off is purely for the utility? You could also try Nature Power with Tapu Koko to have access to Thunderbolt to hit Corvknight, Mandibuzz and Skarmory more reliably.

I had a dragapult hard switch into a knock off and live with a sliver of health one time and I couldn't think of anything modest let me outspeed meaningfully. Also, did not consider nature power, and since tangrowth already matches very well with koko that sounds like a great idea, ty.
EDIT: Quiet is also a bit better vs sub SD lando that might try to pp stall leaf storm if you have focus blast over nature power (tri attack)
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 76-90 (23.8 - 28.2%) -- 93.9% chance to 4HKO

 

[sunbhie]

uh soft boiled only has 10 PP and freeze dry has 20. also, remember, kyurem runs pressure
View attachment 333488

Kyurem needs to use about five freeze dry to force one soft boiled, and pressure doesn't affect soft boiled.

 

[vNatFly]

Kyurem needs to use about five freeze dry to force one soft boiled, and pressure doesn't affect soft boiled.

yeah, this was already established

 

[SaveMeJebus]

With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future. Not only do you open up a move slot on your own team but you also most likely take away a slot from your opponent since Defog is almost as mandatory as Stealth Rock

 

[theotherguytm]

With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future. Not only do you open up a move slot on your own team but you also most likely take away a slot from your opponent since Defog is almost as mandatory as Stealth Rock

Rocks are still 100% needed to break focus sashes and limit non-boots Pokemon, which otherwise can just use Leftovers without consequence (eg: both lefties and boots are considered viable on Dragapult).

 

[pkmnthebest]

With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future.

Knock off

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Rocks are still 100% needed to break focus sashes and limit non-boots Pokemon, which otherwise can just use Leftovers without consequence (eg: both lefties and boots are considered viable on Dragapult).

These teams would be used among other teams that carry Rocks so there's still a reason to use boots.

Also, there are other methods of breaking sash without entry hazards such as Fake out which can use up the free slot opened up by not using Stealth Rock and works well when you realize most sash users are leads

pkmnthebest

Knock Off is definitely an option but the problem with Knock Off is that it's very bait dependant and your not often gonna be able to bait out the Mon who's Boots you want to knock off. For instance, You're never gonna Knock off a Volcorona's Boots with a Tornadus

 

[Empress Mobile]

I think the number of teams that would opt out of running Rocks will be very few, though there would probably be games where setting up Rocks wouldn't be as much of a priority as in other games. Knock Off may not always be reliable, but given its general lack of drawbacks it is easy to slot into virtually any mon that learns it, if not 2 on a single team. Additionally running Rocks can provide a huge advantage if the opponent wants to run a different item than boots on their rock weak mon. Yes it's definitely possible that a team could be successful without it but a) it would be an exception, not a major archetype and b) the player would need to make tangible and intentional use of the team restrictions freed up by not running Rocks.

 

[pulsar512b]

With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future. Not only do you open up a move slot on your own team but you also most likely take away a slot from your opponent since Defog is almost as mandatory as Stealth Rock

I think hazardless (and honestly, hazardremovalless) teams are not something you sit down to make, its something that comes out of your natural building process.

 

[OctoMystic]

Honestly, I feel a slowtwins ban is deserved.
This may be an unpopular opinion but let me explain,

The Combination of Future Sight + Teleport + Regenerator makes the slowtwins amazing picks to compliment breakers to have no trouble getting them in and causing huge impact. Teleport is guaranteed momentum and has 0 drawbacks. Heavy duty boots further enhances the difficulty in breaking these. Although there are checks, a good predicted teleport or a swap into a check for that given pokemon can lead to amazing outcomes and they force so many swaps, and also check many Pokemon defensively while having all this utility. They have reliable recovery and scald, which is an amazing move to shut down physical attackers with a burn.

Future sight is an amazing move, a 120bp stab move with 0 drawbacks that acts on the same turn as an attacker after a teleport is far too overpowering in my opinion, pokemon that would usually check mons defensively no longer can beca use of this absurd move, it either forces out resists which can be taken advantage of or just leaves a mon to die, high is very hard to punish given the amount it checks and how easy it is to get up.

Teleport is, too good. A negative priority momentum move with 0 drawbacks acts perfectly with its set. Being able to capitalise so easily on the future sight is again, far too overpowering. Allowing things to be able to break checks while having an amazing pokemon with it is incredibly unhealthy. It is impossible to punish and leaves the player risk free. Being able to teleport with such a fat mon and bring in another mon to abuse the future sight the leave the opponent to find a swap in that’s probably non-existent.

Regenerator is, the best defensive ability. 33% Health regen on a fat mon with a risk free momentum move? This makes the slowtwins incredibly hard to break added to all the utility I discussed above. Not even just on slowtwins, regenerator mons have proven to be extremely difficult to wear down, pair this with future sight, teleport, boots, reliable recovery and scald makes these a beast of a defensive mon that just allows offensive mons to go wild.

Feel free to agree or disagree but I honestly feel they are very unhealthy for the tier.

 

[Bruh Moment (Fruedasi)]

Honestly, I feel a slowtwins ban is deserved.
This may be an unpopular opinion but let me explain,

The Combination of Future Sight + Teleport + Regenerator makes the slowtwins amazing picks to compliment breakers to have no trouble getting them in and causing huge impact. Teleport is guaranteed momentum and has 0 drawbacks. Heavy duty boots further enhances the difficulty in breaking these. Although there are checks, a good predicted teleport or a swap into a check for that given pokemon can lead to amazing outcomes and they force so many swaps, and also check many Pokemon defensively while having all this utility. They have reliable recovery and scald, which is an amazing move to shut down physical attackers with a burn.

Future sight is an amazing move, a 120bp stab move with 0 drawbacks that acts on the same turn as an attacker after a teleport is far too overpowering in my opinion, pokemon that would usually check mons defensively no longer can beca use of this absurd move, it either forces out resists which can be taken advantage of or just leaves a mon to die, high is very hard to punish given the amount it checks and how easy it is to get up.

Teleport is, too good. A negative priority momentum move with 0 drawbacks acts perfectly with its set. Being able to capitalise so easily on the future sight is again, far too overpowering. Allowing things to be able to break checks while having an amazing pokemon with it is incredibly unhealthy. It is impossible to punish and leaves the player risk free. Being able to teleport with such a fat mon and bring in another mon to abuse the future sight the leave the opponent to find a swap in that’s probably non-existent.

Regenerator is, the best defensive ability. 33% Health regen on a fat mon with a risk free momentum move? This makes the slowtwins incredibly hard to break added to all the utility I discussed above. Not even just on slowtwins, regenerator mons have proven to be extremely difficult to wear down, pair this with future sight, teleport, boots, reliable recovery and scald makes these a beast of a defensive mon that just allows offensive mons to go wild.

Feel free to agree or disagree but I honestly feel they are very unhealthy for the tier.

My opinion is that the problem isn't the mon. It's Teleport. Teleport is way silly of a move, its basically drypass but better. WishPass would be extremely difficult to time and use to great effect if wasn't because of Teleport. Same goes for Future Sight, another thing that I realize is that Zama, the current suspected mon abuses this too well, if we ban Teleport, may Zama isn't that bad at all because the 2 best way to support it (WishPass and Futureport) aren't that good without Teleport, the nature of Teleport as a move is way too good for defensive mons and offensive mons love entering the field safely, for me any pivoting move gets busted with Regenerator healing, the problem with Teleport is that it also befenits the offensive mon coming in. I think that the current unhealthy thing may be Teleport, not slowtwins, not Clef and even not Zama, also Boots make this shit even more unhealthy, meaning that the defensive mon using Teleport will not be worn down by hazards, overall I prefer a Teleport Ban than a Slowking/Slowbro Ban. But this could affect the lower tiers which is not that good
Anyways that's my opinion. I could be wrong tho