Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Finchinator

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Volcarona is limited to four moves and 510 EVs like everything else, but it needs a lot more than that to cover even a decent portion of potential counterplay.

Heatran and Dragonite are great universal answers. If it lacks Safeguard, Toxic LandoT can be a check and Blissey can be a counter. If it lacks Bug Buzz, all Garchomp can check it and Tyranitar can counter it. If it lacks Psychic, Toxapex can counter it and multiple Dragapult variants can check it. If it lacks Giga Drain, CM or Trick Tapu Fini counter it.

This give-and-take is just the tip of the iceberg and there are dozens of different variations of it that apply to the match-up spectrum of Volcarona.

If Volcarona had a higher floor, it would be less healthy as it can handpick some counterplay and that is a disturbing aspect of any major threat, but it does next to nothing when it runs into the wrong thing and this risk makes it a very viable, but also risky Pokemon that we can regularly prepare for.
 

One Last Kiss

Blurryface
is a Tiering Contributor
:Blissey: Blissey can also serve to stop it, either twave + a partner or with toxic

And well, it can also be very situational, but in a team that is quite weak to volcarona, something like this can help you

:Hippowdon:

Dunas Terror (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
 
Can someone explain to me why volcarona isn't banned?

It has literally 3 checks in the tier, not counting rain. Those being; Dragonite which loses 50%HP and gets burned to kill it, Heatran which is forced to run Taunt Toxic because any other set loses to Sub or Safeguard Volc and Tyranitar which has to run max bulk to not get 2hko'd by offensive bugbuzz.
This is one of the reasons: Volcarona would need approximately 10 moveslots to reliably deal with its checks and counters, which not only isn't feasible for obvious reasons, but also means that you have multiple options in the builder with some being more foolproof than others. Red Raven compiled a nice list of threats, which means I only need to add another observation.

SS OU has picked up the pace recently, with more offensive teams popping up that include powerful breakers and cleaners. :Nihilego:, offensive :heatran: and :volcanion: are prime examples as both happen to force out boosted Volcarona because they can live one hit and OHKO back, which means the Volcarona user is in a difficult position because switching into either too many times will result into something being critically weakened.

This increased offensive pressure lends less space for bulky setup sweepers to grab enough boost to become game-threatening, unless your name is Clefable because mono Fairy + Magic Guard is just bonkers.
With Volcarona needing space and turns to boost up to dangerous levels and the existence of offensive powerhouses that can handle it at +1 or even +2 in some cases, you pretty much always have the tools to keep it in check if you play around it correctly. Usually, offensive teams end up with 4/5 mons that flat out prevent Volcarona from setting up. Bulkier teams have a large enough structure to handle Volcarona usually.

It is still threatening, quite polarizing in its defensive counterplay and to be respected in the builder, but at the moment it's far from being ban worthy.
 
Ah yes, Nihilego completely craps on whatever Volcarona can try to do. Given how prominent this guy is these days, that's another auto-counter many teams include without meaning to.
 
A few other checks I'd like to mention:

:nihilego:Despite its coverage, Power Herb sets don't mind checking Volcarona. The Power Herb variant can even take +2 Psychic and OHKO (or threaten to OHKO) back with Meteor Beam if healthy. If rocks are up, it can still take +1/+2 Psychic from Bulky Volcarona, and +1 Psychic from Offensive Volcarona.

176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 352-420 (113.1 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 352-420 (94.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

:Rotom-heat:SpD Rotom-Heat can check a number of things in the tier right now, and is my favorite underdog. It can cripple Volcarona with Toxic/Twave and Pain Split gives it some staying power.

:swampert:Swampert wrecks unprepared offensive and balance teams that rely on offensive power to remove walls with its Ground/Water typing. It does a decent job of checking Volcarona so long as it doesn't have Giga Drain, and it can cripple Volcarona with Toxic.

:Crawdaunt:The GOAT demolishes Volcarona with Priority. However, it is more of a revenge killer because it can't switch in more than once and requires Choice Band or Life Orb to OHKO offensive sets.

(Unaware):Clefable:Completely walls Volcarona in any variant and uses it as setup fodder or cripples it.

:ditto:lol
 
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In short, it's not known as the "matchup moth" for nothing lol. Yes, sometimes you will just get 6-0ed by the perfect Volcarona set, but your odds of running into it are low, and that set probably will do nothing and get sacced to a random EQ in the next battle.
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Spdef are the 2 mons in this list I didn't fully consider when writing the post. They are certainly decent checks but they're also 2 of the easiest mons to chip into range as they're commonly used to check a number of metagame threats.
If these are your only Volc checks and you let them get chipped, that's on you. That's how you play with/against sweepers, you try and cripple/protect their checks. "Just win first" is advice that applies to all sweepers whose checks are on a timer.
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dies on switch in with rocks + psychic and cb aqua jet only has a 37% chance of ohkoing 0 bulk volc.
Why are you trying to hard switch it in. That 37% shouldn't be a problem since Volc will either get chipped by a random U-turn or something or you can just attack it while it sets up. Also, non-Psychic variants and bulky variants just die.
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Only Calm Mind Tapu Fini can deal with bulky sets and Misty terrain actually helps it setup
Taunt. Trick.
is as you stated, a sack not a check.
I don't know where you got that from lol. As he said, Pex is a literal hard stop to every Volcarona that does not carry Psychic explicitly for it.
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can beat only non sub variants if luck is heavily in your favor, not what I'd consider a check.
It certainly puts it on a timer often enough to make it think twice. Also, any Sub variant is going to be a mono-attacking set that loses even harder to other checks.
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needs to hit 2 hurricanes in a row, and can be pp stalled by sub variants.
Or just Taunt/Toxic to end its sweep right there.
like torn can beat it if you hit 2 hurricanes in a row and it doesn't sub stall you, sure.
As he says, offensive Zapdos just OHKOs, and again this mono-attacking Volc loses to loads more stuff.
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is a revenge killer not a check.
That is the definition of a check. "A Pokemon that, barring significant hax, can defeat another Pokemon 1v1 with a free switch in."
 
In short, it's not known as the "matchup moth" for nothing lol. Yes, sometimes you will just get 6-0ed by the perfect Volcarona set, but your odds of running into it are low, and that set probably will do nothing and get sacced to a random EQ in the next battle.

If these are your only Volc checks and you let them get chipped, that's on you. That's how you play with/against sweepers, you try and cripple/protect their checks. "Just win first" is advice that applies to all sweepers whose checks are on a timer.
Volcarona's defensive and offensive checks are limited compared to other sweepers. As i stated in the first post, I think it's limiting in the team builder not that there isn't counterplay. And Lando/Chomp will hardly be the only check to Volc on a team, I think that speaks to it's grip in game and during teambuilding.
Why are you trying to hard switch it in. That 37% shouldn't be a problem since Volc will either get chipped by a random U-turn or something or you can just attack it while it sets up. Also, non-Psychic variants and bulky variants just die.
The mons that run momentum moves like U-turn or Volt either threaten or are threatened by Volcarona. Which means you'll likely never get that chip unless you're willing to risk your Corviknight or Rillaboom needlessly. And if you're not getting a U-turn off your either hard switching or sacking a mon to get urshifu in, who doesn't even guarantee kill 0 bulk Volc with priority.
Taunt. Trick.
Then it switches and the next time it comes in on something it threatens, gets 2 boosts as you switch to Fini only to die to psychic after doing 50% with 2 scalds.
I don't know where you got that from lol. As he said, Pex is a literal hard stop to every Volcarona that does not carry Psychic explicitly for it.
Every Volcarona besides mono fire run Psychic for Pex but also Fini and Urshifu. And in case you missed something, in his own words: "forces you to kill it with psychic or it keeps hazing away your boosts."
It certainly puts it on a timer often enough to make it think twice. Also, any Sub variant is going to be a mono-attacking set that loses even harder to other checks.
[
I think the fact slowking banks on getting a 30% Toxic, dying and having enough sacks after Volc gets 3 boosts speaks volumes to it's effectiveness as a check.
Or just Taunt/Toxic to end its sweep right there.
Volcarona isn't getting it's first boost on Tornadus, the only time it stays in is after it's already boosted in which case taunt Toxic will only put it on a timer.
As he says, offensive Zapdos just OHKOs, and again this mono-attacking Volc loses to loads more stuff.
Like with Tornadus, Volcarona isn't getting its first boost in front of a Zapdos which means the only time they'll be face to face is after a boost in which case even max SpA Zapdos fails to ohko.
That is the definition of a check. "A Pokemon that, barring significant hax, can defeat another Pokemon 1v1 with a free switch in."
Scarf Gapdos speed ties with +1 Volcarona, a 50/50 is the opposite of consistent in my book.

Edit:
I'm done with this topic and I wasn't going to answer the previous post but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Above all else Finchinator's post somewhat convinced me about what makes volc balanced, that being while it's difficult to check all variants with one pokemon, volcarona is limited to 1 set each of which are exploitable in some way.
 
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I believe I saw how much volc dropped after the tundra dlc , from being on at the top to Heatran. Existing. Just… heatran. Most basic set with it kill volc I believe and it’s got 30% usage rate. That alone can make volc players not wanting to play volc, right?

edit: I’m absolutely bad at the game so don’t base yourselves one me just wanted to share my simple toughts.
Second edit: sorry finch didn’t see the post until I sent this.
 
Volcarona's defensive and offensive checks are limited compared to other sweepers. As i stated in the first post, I think it's limiting in the team builder not that there isn't counterplay. And Lando/Chomp will hardly be the only check to Volc on a team, I think that speaks to it's grip in game and during teambuilding.

The mons that run momentum moves like U-turn or Volt either threaten or are threatened by Volcarona. Which means you'll likely never get that chip unless you're willing to risk your Corviknight or Rillaboom needlessly. And if you're not getting a U-turn off your either hard switching or sacking a mon to get urshifu in, who doesn't even guarantee kill 0 bulk Volc with priority.

Then it switches and the next time it comes in on something it threatens, gets 2 boosts as you switch to Fini only to die to psychic after doing 50% with 2 scalds.

Every Volcarona besides mono fire run Psychic for Pex but also Fini and Urshifu. And in case you missed something, in his own words: "forces you to kill it with psychic or it keeps hazing away your boosts."

I think the fact slowking banks on getting a 30% Toxic, dying and having enough sacks after Volc gets 3 boosts speaks volumes to it's effectiveness as a check.

Volcarona isn't getting it's first boost on Tornadus, the only time it stays in is after it's already boosted in which case taunt Toxic will only put it on a timer.

Like with Tornadus, Volcarona isn't getting its first boost in front of a Zapdos which means the only time they'll be face to face is after a boost in which case even max SpA Zapdos fails to ohko.

Scarf Gapdos speed ties with +1 Volcarona, a 50/50 is the opposite of consistent in my book.

Edit:
I'm done with this topic and I wasn't going to answer the previous post but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Above all else Finchinator's post somewhat convinced me about what makes volc balanced, that being while it's difficult to check all variants with one pokemon, volcarona is limited to 1 set each of which are exploitable in some way.
This reply is not intended to feed any Volcarona discussion, but only as a general advice on how to analyze these situations.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of considering only 1v1 scenarios when assessing a Pokémon's impact on team builder and in battle. More often than not you could argue than any Pokémon can beat any of its checks/counters in one way or another, after all.
For example, Zeraora can beat Buzzwole if it runs Acrobatics or beat Landorus-T through repeated Knock Offs coupled with Stealth Rock and by outlasting it thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots. These are examples very much akin to those you used as arguments to support your view on Volcarona (moveset adaptations, in battle sequences), which shows how this logic can be applied to pretty much every Pokémon.

Are these statements false? No.
Do they mean that every team with Buzzwole and/or Landorus-T is weak to Zeraora by default, because these supposed checks can be worn down or lured? Also no.

The main problem with these assessments is that they completely overlook cost-effectiveness, 6v6 environment and - as already addressed - practicality (you can't run every possible moves or EVs on Volcarona as well as any other Pokémon).

Any coverage move ran for a specific Pokémon is replacing a generally more useful move, which means you are trading a higher number of slightly more positive interactions for a single, high reward one to accomplish a specific goal for your team. Keep this in mind when you make a point for a Pokémon A that has access to X move to defeat Pokémon B, because most likely there's a Y move that is better 9 out of 10 times.
For example, Acrobatics is potentially a cool move for Zeraora but realistically comes at the expense of Close Combat or 4th slot, which means you either drop crucial Fighting coverage or extra utility in Bulk Up, Toxic or Volt Switch for the single purpose of taking Buzzwole out. Some teams may require this, but they aren't as prevalent as those that would get more value out of a more standard Zeraora set.

Also, when assessing that a Pokémon only needs one-two rounds of chip damage you are completely ignoring the value that your opponent is getting by positioning a Pokémon in front of you that forces you to make a reactionary play. For example, Zeraora can indeed force chip on Landorus-T, but while doing so Landorus-T gets many free turns. Free turns for Landorus-T on a typical SS OU offensive build is potentially catastrophic because it will most likely use U-turn as you switch out to position a breaker and execute a game plan. This ultimately puts you in a position where you can lose the battle before you have the chance to break through Landorus-T with Zeraora.

Finally, assuming you can regularly force chip damage while keeping your Pokémon in pristine condition is extremely optimistic, especially considering the paragraph above.

This post is probably long af so I apologize, I just wanted to make some hopefully useful observations. The message I want to pass is that when one builds or rates a team or assesses a Pokémon's viability, he/she needs to consider more than just how many 1v1s it can win or how many checks and counters it can theoretically beat.
 
:Ninetales-Alola: 1 2 3 Three Hail teams successfully being posted in RMT in less than a week, plus Hail (I believe it's Ox's) that constantly appears in tournaments.
So, if anyone wants to elaborate on why Hail is so consistent, or disagree, I'm curious as I'm not following the metagame as intensely after the survey.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Tournament Banned
:Ninetales-Alola: 1 2 3 Three Hail teams successfully being posted in RMT in less than a week, plus Hail (I believe it's Ox's) that constantly appears in tournaments.
So, if anyone wants to elaborate on why Hail is so consistent, or disagree, I'm curious as I'm not following the metagame as intensely after the survey.
Not the best player out there, but from seeing SPL, Ladder, Charity Bowl, and my run in OST hail is just a threat. Hail is almost impossible to switch into with arctozolt's amazing stabs alongside the 6% chip from hail to everything but clef and weave and not to mention alolan ninetales being one of the best support mons in OU with Veil, Hypnosis, Encore, Hail, Pain Split etc.

While i thank you for giving my Team a shoutout, i dont think it should be considered as Hail (just like how Hippowdon + Stall isnt Sand), it should just be considered as Veil HO which has different partners, ways to win, and others. If you choose to include it as hail however, it is another strenght of Hail in enabling to play a very fast paced HO team while having massive bulk due to veil.

So, how hail works is
Hail plays well with 3 strats, HO Weather, Pivot Spam and BO or a combination of the 3. Hail in its core is Offense, you want to have hail up at all times to make sure arctozolt can break the opposing team for your other teammates to clean, or in reverse, have your team soften up the defensive core and beat/wall the scarfers to give arctozolt a clean 6 turn to click moves and win. here ill give a few example of teams i see on the high ladder with hail (1800-2000 ELO).

1. :ss/hatterene::ss/garchomp::ss/ninetales-alola::ss/corviknight::ss/arctozolt::ss/rotom-wash:
2. :ss/ninetales-alola::ss/tornadus-therian::ss/arctozolt::ss/toxapex::ss/vanilluxe::ss/landorus-therian:
3. :ss/ninetales-alola::ss/moltres-galar::ss/kommo-o::ss/jirachi::ss/victini::ss/tapu-koko::ss/arctozolt:
4. :ss/ninetales-alola::ss/arctozolt::ss/blaziken::ss/tornadus-therian::ss/ferrothorn::ss/garchomp:
5. :ss/volcanion::ss/ninetales-alola::ss/arctozolt::ss/corviknight::ss/tornadus-therian::ss/landorus-therian:
6. :ss/dragapult::ss/ninetales-alola::ss/sandslash-alola::ss/magnezone::ss/mandibuzz::ss/swampert:

at first glance, all of them have one thing in common which is pivot spam. pivotting in hail is incredibly crucial to get in the almost unwallable arctozolt to start spamming its move and dealing massive damage. it can be done with common pivots like :tornadus-therian: torn and :corviknight: corv, or with a more creative approach in :eject-button::toxapex: Eject Pex in team 2 or :swampert: Yawn Pert in team 6.

Another thing is, hail is either used to break the opponents team apart so that your slush rush sweeper can sweep in the end (team 2 with :vanilluxe: specs ice cream, 5 with :volcanion: specs volcanion, 6 with :dragapult: band pult and :magnezone: zone) , or have your slush rush sweeper break the opponents team for your teammates to sweep in the end (team 1 with :hatterene: cm hatt, team 3 with :kommo-o::moltres-galar: Set up sweeper spam, team 4 with :blaziken: blaziken).

So why is it good?
It is good because of the offensive pressure of a good hail team can bring to the table can overwhelm your opponent very quickly, as a hail team you need to make sure to not let your opponent rest and always be on their backfoot, you do this by gaining momentum using pivot spam to always be on front and also have heavy offensive pressure that can either beat hail counters (team 4, team 6) or double down on it and make the counter unable to wall everything (team 2, team 5) making it so that the opponent have to double around potential ohko's in half of the turns in a game. hail is also not easy to break due to Aurora Veil and :arctozolt::arctovish::sandslash-alola: All of the slush rusher having respectable bulk while usually being paired with tanky pivots and regen-mons. All of these combined can make a playstyle that is hell to defeat.

there are obvious weakness like stacking stealth rock weakness while having arguably the worst defensive typings, having your weather abuser being outsped by any scarfers (even landorus), the reliance on having hail up at all time and can be easily walled if the opponent knows how to pivot around resists can be detrimental, BUT the strenghts overall and the consistency of it makes hail very good and potentially being the best weather.

So thats about what makes hail an amazing pick, i may scour some replays to put here for some proof of why hail is great.


i hope this answers your question :dp/mew:


also LudwigFrog explain yourself on post above (jk)
 
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There is an odd aspect of hail that makes it more interesting to me than other weathers, regardless of viability oversll. And that's the existence of so many potential hail setters.

The easiest to slap onto a hail team (and the most common) is alola ninetales, and for good reason. It has a nice stash of utility tools in addition to the hail summoning, and can tailor itself to a team's needs. However what I find rather neat is seeing many players branch out ans experiment with other setters. I've seen Vanilluxe Hail, Abomasnow Hail and was untroduced to Aurorus Hail with that team that Tio shared a link to. Looking at the different setters, they all have their own distinct qualities that make them able to be somewhat different, and potentially justify their slot on a hail team.

This is something rain nor sun can do. They are stuck with Pelipper and Torkoal as they can't justify running the other setters. This sort of variety and potential flexibility is what I think really makes hail a fascinating playstyle and while it can still struggle with consistency (like any weather team), that sort of dynamic is very cool and is one of the more exciting developments of gen8.
 
not about hail, but I want to talk about :garchomp:, mainly the offensive set.

A fair amount of metagame changes have occured and most of them seem to affect chomp's viability more drastically than they would other pokemon. For starters, what inspired me to post about chomp is the slight dip in Landorus's viability. Garchomp loves this as now both a check (provided not aqua tail) and a competitor are slightly less free to use. Chomp also enjoys the shift to a more offensive metagame as it can fit on more teams, and its lack of longevity is not as punishing. Garchomp is also quite adaptable as you can give it any of roseli berry, yache berry, lefties, life orb and even hard stone for offensive rocks. You can also run aqua tail instead of the typical fire fang to break through Landorus and hit balloon Heatran need be.

Garchomp doesn't like all of the other metagame changes though; it hates the rise of Weavile and other speed control, and Buzzwhole doesn't make life fun either. although these can be bypassed by screens in conjunction with yache berry, you can't fit all of the items you want nor can you always avoid being pidgeonholed into using this pokemon defensively to the point where you cannot setup.

(This mini paragraph is an edit but not the prior nor following ones.): In my opinion, Garchomp has become a much better breaker/trader but will usually lose too much HP to sweep if used as an early game breaker or defensively. The threat of scale shot is great in spite of this this though as it often makes sacking a pokemon too dangerous for the opponent.

To me, Garchomp feels like a pokemon on the border between A and A+ viability, but I want to know what you think.

I am a lower ladder player around the 1600 mark who can't competently prefect my own teams so don't mistake me for being good.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
not about hail, but I want to talk about :garchomp:, mainly the offensive set.

A fair amount of metagame changes have occured and most of them seem to affect chomp's viability more drastically than they would other pokemon. For starters, what inspired me to post about chomp is the slight dip in Landorus's viability. Garchomp loves this as now both a check (provided not aqua tail) and a competitor are slightly less free to use. Chomp also enjoys the shift to a more offensive metagame as it can fit on more teams, and its lack of longevity is not as punishing. Garchomp is also quite adaptable as you can give it any of roseli berry, yache berry, lefties, life orb and even hard stone for offensive rocks. You can also run aqua tail instead of the typical fire fang to break through Landorus and hit balloon Heatran need be.

Garchomp doesn't like all of the other metagame changes though; it hates the rise of Weavile and other speed control, and Buzzwhole doesn't make life fun either. although these can be bypassed by screens in conjunction with yache berry, you can't fit all of the items you want nor can you always avoid being pidgeonholed into using this pokemon defensively to the point where you cannot setup.

To me, Garchomp feels like a pokemon on the border between A and A+ viability, but I want to know what you think.

I am a lower ladder player around the 1600 mark who can't competently prefect my own teams so don't mistake me for being good.
If you're at the 1600 mark that usually means you're average to good, but not those who spend like half a day playing showdown that are maybe 1800+ rank

For me, I would say that Garchomp is still an S rank mon and personally, I find that it is better than Landorus as a spdef ground type. "But Landorus has intimidate, not weak to fairies, two immunities, and at least three utility moves". Yeah, I know. That's the whole reason I don't like Landorus anymore. My biggest gripe with Landorus is it gets overwhelmed far, far too easily. It's intense role compression has pretty much led to the point where a lot of teams crumple easily once flying lion gets crippled. Land shark, on the other hand, has a specialized role, dealing with Heatran and that leads it to being far less likely to get that worn down. The access to flamethrower has also saved my ass a lot more times than Lando's intimidate has, especially against Kartana. Imo, the only thing that Landorus truly checks is Zeraora, as opposing Garchomps will either just toxic it or aqua tail it into oblivion. I can understand why a lot of people fawn over Landorus but ever since I changed the way I play, Garchomp's specialized nature has worked wonders over Landorus do everything nature. Whenever I build a team, I just default to Garchomp as my rocker and back it up with Ferrothorn for the fairies

In the metagame changes, I think that the drop of Corviknight also helped a lot since it no longer has to run fire fang that much. Weavile doesn't really bother Chomp imo. With yache, the only Weavile set that can truly stop Garchomp is choice band and Garchomp will outlast band Weavile. Even adamant ice shard wouldn't be enough to kill thru yache against a healthy shark. In my experience, I think that the biggest change that affected Garchomp is the mindset. I think that many have finally realized that Garchomp's item can screw over any team that isn't packing a Rillaboom and the moment it boosts its speed, its not uncommon to see entire teams just fall apart. Now, they're actually risking trying to block scale shot with their Tapu and it turns into guessing games. This leads to the part where roseli becomes a strong option, so that these annoying fairies are only nothing more than minor inconveniences but that would leave it vulnerable to ice shard. Imo, the two things that let scale shot sets down is the fact that scale shot rng just sucks and two, the choice between roseli and yache is not an easy one to make and would have major costs
 
If you're at the 1600 mark that usually means you're average to good, but not those who spend like half a day playing showdown that are maybe 1800+ rank

For me, I would say that Garchomp is still an S rank mon and personally, I find that it is better than Landorus as a spdef ground type. "But Landorus has intimidate, not weak to fairies, two immunities, and at least three utility moves". Yeah, I know. That's the whole reason I don't like Landorus anymore. My biggest gripe with Landorus is it gets overwhelmed far, far too easily. It's intense role compression has pretty much led to the point where a lot of teams crumple easily once flying lion gets crippled. Land shark, on the other hand, has a specialized role, dealing with Heatran and that leads it to being far less likely to get that worn down. The access to flamethrower has also saved my ass a lot more times than Lando's intimidate has, especially against Kartana. Imo, the only thing that Landorus truly checks is Zeraora, as opposing Garchomps will either just toxic it or aqua tail it into oblivion. I can understand why a lot of people fawn over Landorus but ever since I changed the way I play, Garchomp's specialized nature has worked wonders over Landorus do everything nature. Whenever I build a team, I just default to Garchomp as my rocker and back it up with Ferrothorn for the fairies

In the metagame changes, I think that the drop of Corviknight also helped a lot since it no longer has to run fire fang that much. Weavile doesn't really bother Chomp imo. With yache, the only Weavile set that can truly stop Garchomp is choice band and Garchomp will outlast band Weavile. Even adamant ice shard wouldn't be enough to kill thru yache against a healthy shark. In my experience, I think that the biggest change that affected Garchomp is the mindset. I think that many have finally realized that Garchomp's item can screw over any team that isn't packing a Rillaboom and the moment it boosts its speed, its not uncommon to see entire teams just fall apart. Now, they're actually risking trying to block scale shot with their Tapu and it turns into guessing games. This leads to the part where roseli becomes a strong option, so that these annoying fairies are only nothing more than minor inconveniences but that would leave it vulnerable to ice shard. Imo, the two things that let scale shot sets down is the fact that scale shot rng just sucks and two, the choice between roseli and yache is not an easy one to make and would have major costs
Honestly I’m gonna have to agree with u on this one.

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The main advantages of using Lando over Chomp is spikes immunity, ground immunity, Knock/U-Turn and better mu vs Koko. Those are great traits, but I feel like Tankchomp has more freedom on its 4th move slot than Lando, among other advantages over it. Lando is always forced to run EQ/U-Turn/Defog or Rocks. Its 4th Slot goes to either Knock or Toxic. It wants Knock to remove lefties/boots, but it also wants Toxic to cripple Buzzwole. Lando also isn’t that great of a defogger. The issue in relying on it to remove hazards is that it gets worn down quickly and once it is gone, the team will get overwhelmed by hazards. Chomp has more room on its 4th slot. Tect lets it scout Band Weavile and Specs Lele while giving it lefties recovery. Flamethrower hits Ferro and smacks Corv decently enough. Rest lets it be a Tran check for longer. Even Aqua Tail and Rock Slide are options to smack Balloon Tran or Volcarona.

Lando’s spikes immunity and U-Turn are good, but I find Chomp’s Rough Skin to be more impactful in a game. Being able to punish U-Turn and the plethora of physical attackers is important in putting something like Melmetal in range of Weavile or Lele. Zera knock’s Lando’s lefties and does not get punished, Chomp gets knock’d but also punishes Zera in return. Lando needs a ton of speed investment to outrun Tran and Volcanion which cuts its bulk by a lot, Chomp shines in that aspect becuz it outspeeds more threats. Nidoking has seen a resurgence, and being able to outspeed and threaten with an OHKO without much investment is great.

While Lando has one more immunity than it, Chomp has more meaningful resists. Lando resists Bug/Poison/Fighting. The only bug type Lando has to worry about is Volcarona who hits it with Flamethrower and every common fighting type threatens it. Chomp resists Fire which is very important in a metagame with Tran and Tini. It also doesn’t die to Nihi’s Meteor Beam which Lando needs to be healthy in order to take.

Ironically, Chomp is more versatile in its movesets than Lando is rn. Lando can run more offensive sets, but becuz ppl rly on it as their Zera/Koko answer, it gets worn down quicker than usual. SD Lando looks great on paper but it fails to threaten BO and HO which have become commonplace in OU. Sub-SD also flops vs Urshifu, Pult, and Weavile being able to threaten it out. SD Chomp not only outspeeds Urshifu, but Scale Shot means it can decimate teams with prediction. It still fears Weavile, but nothing like a Yache Berry couldn’t fix. Plus Chomp can even run LO Mixed to lure in Buzzwole and Ferro for Weavile. Both Lando and Chomp are A+ material, with Chomp being arguably better in the current meta rn. Rough Skin is too valuable in a meta where U-Turn and Knock are rampant.
 
Chomp being on par or better than Lando is a bit of a stretch, when Lando is sometimes used as a check of itself and a lot of the mons have teched overtime to deal with Lando's presence and not the other way around in Garchomp, Aqua Tail Chomp as one example is for Lando not Volcarona. Chomp is a good mon but I think there's a bit of an exaggeration in the above and if they were on equal footing a simple usage stat would show that, as well as just games in general. Weavile has also been around for a good minute so I'm not sure where the notion of Weavile being more present is a detriment to one and not both. I think most of the above sounds a lot better on paper than in practice. My two cents.
 

ausma

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sorry for this to be a one-liner, and I'm still sort of new, but don't quite a few people use lando without Stealth Rock? Doesn't seem to me that it's a must for the lando set to be a good one, as you could put rocks on something like heatran instead.
Precisely! Quite a few Landorus-T run Defog hugely because it is a Defog user that beats most Heatran variants 1v1, and Heatran tends to run Stealth Rock because it's so good at forcing switches against a wide myriad of the tier's Steel-types while being one of few Stealth Rock setters that beats Corviknight. Aside from Defog, Landorus-T can also viably run options like Smack Down, Swords Dance, Substitute, or even more niche options like Imprison, for the sake of example; in general, its natural defensive profile gives it a lot of leverage to do more than just provide Stealth Rock support and that's part of what makes it such a splashable Pokemon. I would mainly just advise against running both Stealth Rock and Defog on the same set.
 
not to drag the thread on for too long but i do agree @ chomp playing differently from lando at the very least. using chomp gives up a bunch of soft MUs (koko, lando, opposing chomp etc.) for more secure MUs (heatran and nihilego mostly, but chipping zera is nice too), which can be valuable considering how many opposing gameplans rely on how pressurable lando's soft MUs are. i've been personally enjoying my chomp teams lately for this reason.

i still wouldnt say chomp is on par with lando (and i feel most pro-chomp posters would say the same). my main reasoning is lando basically being the comfiest defogger on BO by far... (torn-t is great, but it doesnt check as much for a team if it doesnt go AV). so running chomp means you're making some holes in your team that lando was filling, and your other 5 teamslots r gonna feel the pressure to fill those holes more. it's up to you if you feel garchomp's extra comfort vs nihi/tran/offense in general is worth it.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Tournament Banned
Why has there been a massive uptick of stall and fat 1800+ ladder on OU? there are about 12 players that consistently spams fat stall above 1800 and even more player who used stall but not consistently which is a weird and rare occurance for SS OU (not to mention, at the time of writing the number 1 person with 2100 elo is a stall player too). Usually you only see up to 5 players who uses stall which are usually people who knows the ins and outs of the playstyle and are masters of it, but there has been a boom of players using it and the teams that they use also have been tried and tested in the past aswell so there doesnt seem to be a new stall meta-trend with only a few teams adding some spice to their builds like spdef mew or protect spam. i havent caught up to last 2 weeks of SPL, OST or watch every SmogTour Replay nor do i have the time to do so but has there been a big HO breakthrough that fat is becoming good again?

for almost a year now, i use the same team if i just wanna ladder, while getting ideas for new teams or just relax and not think too much, the team has a bad matchup againts stall but it never gave me an issue as stall is bad and so i rarely see them and could just click buttons and win most of the time, and accept the few bad matchup or try extra hard to beat them, but this new uptick in stall has given me a massive issue as i actually have to use a team that doesnt lose to stall due to how common it is.

i actually as a joke with some friends, build a team that ONLY beats stall few weeks ago and loses to everything else, but seeing this trend picked up, i decided to made the team somewhat viable (and not use moldbreaker Lucha + No Ghost Stab Scarf gengar) while keeping :necrozma: Necrozma + :togekiss: Togekiss and i went to 1953 with and got 5 stall games (which i lost one of them)


anyways, the question is, why did stall suddenly get popular?

here ive tried re-building the variations of stall teams i've seen around 1800 from the past month (especially last week or 2) from high ladder that i remembered and ones from replays i saved(sets may not be correct):

:buzzwole::blissey::rotom-heat::corviknight::quagsire::toxapex:
Buzzwole + NP Rotom heat stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)
:gastrodon::mew::blissey::clefable::toxapex::corviknight:
Will-o-Mew stall (Sets Confirmed (except clef) and EVs Unconfirmed)
:amoonguss::toxapex::tornadus-therian::quagsire::blissey::corviknight:
Amoonguss pex torn regen spam with quag (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)
:tornadus-therian::gastrodon::corviknight::weavile::buzzwole::blissey:
Torn Zwole + Gastro Fat Balance (Sets (and maybe pokemon) and EVs Unconfirmed)
:tornadus-therian::hippowdon::clefable::skarmory::mew::chansey:
NP Torn Sand Stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)
:xatu::shedinja::buzzwole::chansey::toxapex::corviknight:
Xatu + Shedinja pex stall (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)
:shedinja::corviknight::dragonite::avalugg::blissey::toxapex:
Triple Removal Corv Dnite Avalugg Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month ago i remember
:toxapex::corviknight::dragonite::zapdos::blissey::quagsire:
Triple Defog Corv Zapdos Dnite Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed. ronaldo o fenomeno edrala the goat)
:corviknight::mandibuzz::clefable::blissey::quagsire::toxapex:
Old School Mandibuzz Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed)
:buzzwole::reuniclus::garchomp::corviknight::clefable::toxapex:
Buzzwole + Reun Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month or so ago i remember, and was 1700s

maybe with these rebuilds people can give me the answer to why stall suddenly got a meteoric rise, as i genuinely cant find out, as all the things that made stall bad in the first place is still around. My best guess is that SmogTour has started and people have started laddering with stall to test and use on SmogTour as Cheese and CTeams are the name of the game there. Though, quite a lot of the teams like the Rotom Heat Buzzwole, Buzzwole Reun, Triple Removal was used during last year's OLT.

also if there is a mistake in "Sets Confirmed" or "EVs Confirmed" Please PM me as i might fix it.

(please dont use the teams above, i really wanna keep using this one team that mono lose to stall since its fun on ladder)

EDIT: Well a speculation of mine that might be true is that nowadays, a lot of teams cant really beat stall, theyre designed to beat fat balance teams with mons like nidoking, volcanion and banded weavile which struggles againts some stall teams. Still not sure if its the real or the only reason, do still help me.
 
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EDIT: Well a speculation of mine that might be true is that nowadays, a lot of teams cant really beat stall, theyre designed to beat fat balance teams with mons like nidoking, volcanion and banded weavile which struggles againts some stall teams. Still not sure if its the real or the only reason, do still help me.
I'm speculating as much as you are with this one, but I think this is exactly the reason why you saw this trend specifically on high ladder. When you reach high numbers on the ladder you start encountering some people trying to optimize their chances to reach the very top by going for teams widely considered to be generally inconsistent/unreliable, because they know well enough the specific trends and how to counter them. As it happens, assuming every player has the same skill level, the hardest teams to face are those you are less prepared for, which are the more uncommon. A skilled player that knows the trends is capable of running Stall with success at high ladder. Of course I assume you are not running into many stall teams when compared to the other more common archetypes anyway, but that's still an interesting trend (F stall btw imo trash playstyle idk how people have fun playing it).
 
This place has gone pretty quiet these last few days, so I'll start something up:

How do you feel about Volcanion's current place in the meta?

With a combination of U L T R A S C A L D, great fire moves, and awesome coverage in EP and Sludge Wave, Volcanion has been rising the ranks of OU and seems slated to rise to OU come the next shift. The combination of those 4 moves are only walled by Blissey, who has dropped in usage since the Kyurem ban. Water Absorb means it can tank scalds for teammates and a 4x fire resist means you can swap it in on Heatran in a pinch. Despite it's subpar speed tier, it seems to be one of the best wallbreakers in the tier now. Definitely seems to have become a premiere pick on Bulky Offense.

Some follow-up questions:
Do you think Volcanion will continue to rise in the coming weeks?
Do you guys have any odd sets you've had any success with? (Other than HDB and Specs ofc)
 
I think for now, Volcanion will keep an OU level usage, because there are very few effective walls for specs; the only safe switch ins are Blissey and Kantonian Slowking. other switch ins either rely on 50/50's (SpDef Pex) or are scouts (AV torn w/o rocks). Volcanion is also the best water immunity making it an excellent check to rain and allowing you to use scouts to check himself instead of pokemon that win the 1v1. Overall, Volcanion makes a great pairing with top tier pokemon such as Weavile and has unique defensive utility, but I believe the rise of pokemon such as Kantonian Slowking will stunt Volcanion's usage.
 

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