Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

There is a way we can suspect two things at once and not have it feel like a crapshoot.

We suspect both forms of Urshifu, of course!

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :urshifu:

In practice of course Urshifu-Rapid isn't nearly as plainly broken as Urshifu-Single. But the problems raised by it can be even more devistating than its counterpart given the same set up. It still hits through Protect, it still automatically scores Critical Hits, it still has excellent offensive typing. It trades its Ferropex MU to beat Clefable and Moltres. This is a tough call when there's two Urshifu to choose from... but not if there's only one Urshifu left in the tier. Urshifu-Rapid isn't going to suddenly become the new Dracovish overnight. But it is going to force a lot of the same unhealthy scenarios that Urshifu-Single is currently doing, if Single is singled out for a ban. Thus, I propose a suspect of both.
 
There is a way we can suspect two things at once and not have it feel like a crapshoot.

We suspect both forms of Urshifu, of course!

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :urshifu:

In practice of course Urshifu-Rapid isn't nearly as plainly broken as Urshifu-Single. But the problems raised by it can be even more devistating than its counterpart given the same set up. It still hits through Protect, it still automatically scores Critical Hits, it still has excellent offensive typing. It trades its Ferropex MU to beat Clefable and Moltres. This is a tough call when there's two Urshifu to choose from... but not if there's only one Urshifu left in the tier. Urshifu-Rapid isn't going to suddenly become the new Dracovish overnight. But it is going to force a lot of the same unhealthy scenarios that Urshifu-Single is currently doing, if Single is singled out for a ban. Thus, I propose a suspect of both.
Absurd proposition. Rapid strike has a much more exploitable typing and a more "counterable" offensive typing. Having a Ferrothorn dissuades Rapid strike from clicking its Surging strikes and if it clicks CC, fairies can take its hits fairly easily. It also doesnt break Bulky Grasses as easy as Single Strike does to Wicked Blow resists since Wicked blow resists get blown the fuck out by Close Combat. Defensively dark is only resisted by ONE type and is easy to overwhelm especially with future sight support (since dark types love coming in) whereas water is resisted by THREE types. Water, Grass and Dragon and is not as easy to overwhelm since most teams have 2 or all of these in one team making it harder for Rapid Shifu to just click its stabs.
Edit: Woops I'm ass and cant remember what dark resists there are
 
Last edited:
Defensively dark is only resisted by ONE type and is easy to overwhelm especially with future sight support (since dark types love coming in)
While I agree with your post overall, it is worth noting that dark is not resisted by only one type. It's resisted by 3; Dark itself, Fighting and Fairy. Dark and Water both have the same amount of resists. Your point about future sight support is absolutely valid though, and it's one of the reasons I think Urshifu-SS is worthy of a suspect.

Speaking of suspects, I hate to add to suspect talk in the metagame discussion thread (there's enough of it as is), but I do think that there are some problematic elements in the meta at the moment. These are made more glaring by my belief that the metagame is actually in a pretty good place now. That is... outside of these elements.

1) Urshifu-SS :urshifu:

Probably my pick for the most broken mon currently in the tier. For reasons already mentioned in the thread (Wicked Blow, Future Sight support, excellent coverage), I do agree that Urshifu-SS should potentially be looked at.

I have been using this mon a lot recently, specifically band w/ Sucker Punch. It always catches me a little off guard how well this mon can do with even 1 correct prediction. Not that you even necessarily need to do that, you can use a pivot to bring it in with relative ease and kill a mon pretty regularly. Buzzwole is the one true counter, and it is checked by numerous mons. Even so, I feel this thing is too strong or OU.

2) Magearna :magearna:

Agreeing with Omari P, this thing is still broken, as it was back in IoA meta. There is more counterplay than there was previously, I will admit. However, I think the additions it got this gen still just push it over the edge. Worthy of a suspect, perhaps even before Urshifu-SS. Specs and Shift Gear + CM are my least favorite sets to run into on the ladder.

3) Spectrier :spectrier:

The horse is, in my opinion, an uncompetitive Pokemon. In a similar vein to Zygarde last gen, it both excels with just one move, and has numerous viable sets to overcome it's counterplay. I have been running a lot of scarf recently, and finding great success. It's an amazing cleaner, akin to a Scarf Vish. However, if I ever got sick of Blissey, I could very easily run Sub + Disable. If I ever got sick of sucker punch, Sub + NP. It's gross, and I feel bad even using this mon. Specs and Scarf, which are its best sets (I think), do not reward skillful play. They reward mindlessly pivoting into this monster, where a good matchup is a winning matchup. It requires running a Sp. Def Dark type, or a Blissey on most teams, generally speaking. I'm not a fan and would like it out of OU. I do admit that this one is the shakiest of my three picks for a suspect. I hold that it should be at least looked at, as I'm sure the council is doing.

--------

That being said, we did just have a suspect on Pheromosa. So I understand if the council wants to take some time to assess the metagame and let it develop. I'm only a mid-ladder player after all. I have faith that they will be open about what is happening, and consider what people are saying in the community, as they have clearly done to this point in gen 8.
 
Last edited:
I don't know whether this will get deleted due to my general lack of experience compared to other players here, but I would still like to say I support a suspect test of all three Urshifu, Spectrier and Magearna.

Urshifu :- Wicked Blow is a broken move in itself. It doesn't matter that Landorus - T switched in. Wicked Blow doesn't care about it. Add in a choice band boost and you have a pretty broken move. I don't think as broken as Thousand Arrows, nor is Urshifu as broken as Zygarde, but still broken. Clefairy and Fini fear Poison Jab. I used to have Scarf Lele on my team to revenge kill it. But that's where the problem came. I have to sack something to bring it in. If the opponent predicts the switch, then Wicked Blow KO'es my Lele. Then I have to use High Jump Kick on my Cinderace, which takes Zen headbutt and Sucker Punch from his moveset (Pyro Ball, U turn and Gunk Shot are necessary on a Cinderace for me), meaning Toxapex walls it all day. Also, most Urshifu's are paired with Spectrier (another mon I will talk about later) which means High Jump Kick is not as safe as I would like. What I can derive from this is that Urshifu forces 50/50's that are (unfairly) in the favor of whoever is using Urshifu. I can't switch in, Urshifu kills whoever is in, I send in my revenge killer, Urshifu switches out to a counter to my revenge killer, double switch and Urshifu is in. (I know because I have used Urshifu this way many times, and have been on the recieving end as well). And Sucker Punch makes revenge killing all the more harder. The cost of sacking mon to bring Urshifu in always lesser than the cost of sacking a mon to bring his check in. Urshifu will KO whoever you send in on the switch. Which is why I would support a suspect test (even if I'm not sure I will be getting the reqs). All this and I didn't even mention Future Port support, which takes care of it's only reliable counter, Buzzwole.

Spectrier :- Probably the least broken mon out of the three in the spotlight. But broken, I feel, nonetheless. While I will admit that I have never been swept by it, I also admit that I was lurking the forums for month before stepping in to play SS OU, and anytime a threat list came up, these three were on the top of it. Which made me start building a team with a Spectrier check who doesn't die to Urshifu easily (Mandibuzz), but loses to specs Magearna. I feel these three have enough of a broken ring attached to them on their own, but paired together, they make life worse for innocent players. Spectrier's best sets to me are both Specs and Scarf. Scarf makes revenge killing more difficult(and if you run scarf, you should be smart enough to not stay in on a Bisharp who is obviously carrying Sucker Punch) while Specs dent even resists. And no one wants to switch in consistently on a specs boosted shadow ball if they are not immune to it. Heatran dies to Mud Shot and gives it a free +1, thanks to renamed Soul Heart. Blissey can switch in but has to use Shadow Ball to break subs and if he is Sub + Disable, congrats. Spectrier will set up both sub and wreck havoc from behind. Will - O - Wisp allows it to cripple some of it's physical checks. But the above mentioned Bisharp is a pretty good check as I always end up predicting a sub or WoW and go for Knock off instead of Sucker Punch, then conveniently Spectrier tries to attack and gets KO'ed by Sucker Punch. While I know that using our experience isn't a valid argument, this is just to show that Bisharp does check it. But it is threatened by a Will - O Wisp so your check is permanently crippled, and is an open invitation for Urshifu to switch in and wreck havoc. As I said, they are great on their own, but their combination is exponentially more threatening.

Magearna :- While I admitted on the SQSA thread just today that I don't always understand how the EV's of bulky mon works, this one I have used to the most success. More so than both Urshifu and Spectrier, and would strongly support it's suspect test. The only way I kill opposing Magearnas is to play like HO on my Balance team and quickly switching in to my Cinderace to scare it out or KO it (of course, it's after I sack a mon to find out whether it's spec or AV or Shift Gear). Magearna, is one mon who can be seen as a real troll mon because as soon as I lure a heatran with my Cinderace (Baiting a Banded Pyro ball but going for the High Jump Kick and KO'ing), Shift Gear + Calm Mind just runs rampant and plays with the feeling of many people. Outside of Unaware Clefable (which for some reason I am seeing a lot less of), no one seems to counter(or even revenge kill lol) this set after a Shift gear + few Calm Minds, thanks to - A) Resisting most priority and B) Having a weak but still reliable after a few Calm Mind recovery in Draining Kiss. Even at 30 - 35 %, it isn't KO'ed by a Grassy Glide from Banded Rillaboom (mine is 252Def/252SpD/4HP, Timid) and recovers good amount of health with Draining Kiss at +2, which isn't hard to get on a defensive build. Specs set is another set which can severely dent teams with boosted Fleur Cannon and slow pivot with Volt Switch. It has amazing bulk and arguably the best typing defensively. Weakness policy sets are also a good on Shift Gear + 3 Attack sets but I have played around it while using neutral hits at first then going for the super effective hit if I'm not sure that it will be OHKO. Assault Vest provides Mag with immense special bulk and you are better off not trying to attack it from the special side while Fleur Cannons are blasting holes. Overall, I feel Mag is the most broken mon out of the three.

I am sure these three will be tested. Pheromosa is gone. After these three are (hopefully) gone, the meta will be much more better I feel as some Pokemon that were completely overshadowed before will see some usage and more diverse teams will be seen. And I don't think this will lead to a slippery slope as the next best thing is Cinderace, which while great, is not broken in my opinion.

Hope my post wasn't repeating what others have said.

EDIT :- I know I said that the horse is the least problematic out of the the three, but it's still so stupid that I sweeped a team in the 1600's (it's somewhat low but still) when I held the wrong item. The team did have a dark resist and an Urshifu but still got destroyed. Funnier when we consider that my phone autocorrected Leftover as Level Ball, and I was still able to trap his Urshifu in Sucker Punch/Wicked Blow mind games and picked off the members one by one.
 
Last edited:
I don't know about you guys, but I've personally never been this excited/motivated to partake in a suspect test, even though I know the ban is almost guaranteed. I personally think Urshifu was worse than Pheromosa, and possibly the most obnoxious mon to build around in my most recent memory, even worse than Gen 6 Gothitelle.

If it can't be quickbanned, than so be it, lets get this suspect test going so I can finally don't have to dedicate 4 slots on my team to counter ace/urshifu/magearna/spectrier.
Something important that I'd like to point out the fact that very little checks to the mons you mentioned (Ace, Mage, Urshifu, Spectrier) overlap with one another, which is what makes them so annoying. Honestly most of the times one's check actually makes you weak to the other three.
 

Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor
The metagame is in a weird situation rn where many top mons are restricting teambuilding a lot, and it's a bit hard to pinpoint which one should be banned. I think Ace and Magearna gained a bit more counterplay in this meta and are probably fine for now. Spectrier can be very underwhelming in some matchups, and we've seen in Smogon Tour that even against no ghost resist, shadow ball being only 80 BP means it's not winning that easily. I think the one that sticks out the most and that I think we should consider suspecting next is Urshifu. It's probably the mon with the least counterplay rn and trying to deal with it in the teambuilder often leads to having issues with other threats. Banning it may result in allowing more options for the threats I mentioned earlier (except for Cinderace which has a little bit of overlapping with it). For example, Pex would be able to run SpD sets more often, and serve as a nice check to Specs Mag and Spectrier, bulky Hydreigon and Tyranitar would be more viable as Spectrier answers, due to them being passive against Urshifu, and both usually run Ground Coverage for Heatran so Mag is not a problem in that regard. Calm Clef could even be an option without Urshifu. Blissey and Ferro can also have an easier time in the tier without Urshifu. And not being pressured into running a fairy type on every team generally makes handling the rest easier.
But maybe the problem is elsewhere, maybe banning Magearna and Cinderace like in Pre-Dlc resolves the issues. In any case, I think the metagame needs some improvement in the form of a suspect test before SPL.
Also, I've found NP Tornadus to be quite a big issue for bulky builds, as usual counterplay to setup sweepers like toxic or chip damage are rendered only slightly effective due to Regenerator + Boots. I feel like without running Rotom, Zapdos, or Tapu Koko, I always expose myself to this monster if it doesn't miss, because you never know what it's gonna run. Sometimes you think your Mag or Aegislash can deal with it but you end up taking a +2 Heat Wave and die, sometimes you try to status or haze it but it uses taunt. On top of that, many of the scarfers and faster mons are not able to OHKO it, which makes it hard to revenge kill given that it has Regenerator and Boots to help it stay at 100%. I know it hasn't been particularly winning as much rn, but as the meta will become slower and bulkier, I think this thing is gonna become an even bigger threat, and get even more setup opportunities. Not suggesting it should get suspect tested soon, but I want to bring attention to it and discuss its counterplay outside of electric types.
 
I would like to second the above post, Spectrier definitely doesn't feel nearly as problematic as either Urshifu or Magearna. There are a lot of solid dark types in the tier (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) that fit into a lot of teams naturally and unlike other problematic mons its counters do not really depend on set, Sub Disable is pretty gimmicky and generally inferior except for messing up with Blissey, but even then it leaves the horse more counterable by other means as it can't spread status. To me it is pretty similar to Blace last gen, the only difference is Spectrier is faster and bulkier on special side, while Blace is stronger and packs secondary stab; both have 3 pretty much the same sets (sub CM, scarf, specs) and the same ability. Most importantly i have found both to be generally hard to fit onto teams both gens. Magearna and Shifu fit into many teams from HO to balance, while fitting Spectrier is much harder because of its selfish nature. I am not trying to sound as if i think Spectrier is garbage, but i think it is much easier to both deal with and isn't just something you can slap on every team and has solid offensive/defensive counterplay despite limiting teambuilder somewhat.
 
Just a few sets I'd like to share and get your opinions on...

Name: Choice Specs
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower

Set Notes: I'll work on some later.

This one is niche so prepare
Name: Idk
Heatran @ Power Herb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ancient Power
- Flash Cannon
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
 
This isnt a post to push for a suspect immediately, even tho I kinda want that I understand the drawbacks.

This post is to ask - what are the arguments for NOT banning Urshifu?
 
If someone wants something else banned first.
That seems daft ngl. The only other mons ive seen suggested are Spectrier and Mag - neither of whom ive seen as much backlash to as Shifu.

Plus just cos other stuff could be banworthy too, doesn't make Urshifu any less banworthy
 
That seems daft ngl. The only other mons ive seen suggested are Spectrier and Mag - neither of whom ive seen as much backlash to as Shifu.

Plus just cos other stuff could be banworthy too, doesn't make Urshifu any less banworthy
Well yea, I don't think anyone is arguing that Urshifu is balanced, it's just many may see Magearna or Spectrier as more banworthy and as the general consensus is 1 ban at a time, that could postpone Urshifu a bit. This time there's no more DLC (that we know of), so I have confidence that all 4 mons currently on the chopping block will soon receive their due conversation.
 
I like to come and see the OU forum and it was the same during months.. never saw someone saying the meta was ok or fun.. always some mon make the tier hard to play... I mean first was Zygod and KyuB, second Mosa, and now Urshifu, Spectrier o Mag (or Ace or (insert opresive mon)) wich make asking inself when a meta is gonna be playable?

Lets wait and pls Nintendo dont make a new Pokemón DLC next year with the rest of the mons....
 
I like to come and see the OU forum and it was the same during months.. never saw someone saying the meta was ok or fun.. always some mon make the tier hard to play... I mean first was Zygod and KyuB, second Mosa, and now Urshifu, Spectrier o Mag (or Ace or (insert opresive mon)) wich make asking inself when a meta is gonna be playable?

Lets wait and pls Nintendo dont make a new Pokemón DLC next year with the rest of the mons....
Metas are always changing and evolving, and there will always be mons that should be removed. Saying that we shouldn't bother with suspect tests is silly. Usually we strive for a balanced tier, whether it's fun or not is almost always a secondary concern.
 
Keeping the most consistent counter to balance mons that actually pose a threat to stall
Nidoking is also very consistent against balance/stall, defensive pokemon absolutely despise it
Edit: for real, everybody worrying about stall/home meta bulky balance becoming too strong again conveniently forgets how 4 attack Nidoking utterly demolishes slower bulky teams, and how the overall meta has slowed down enough for Nidoking to become a very prominent threat against every bulky mon bar Blissey (and to a lesser extent chansey). Offense will do just fine with Urshifu-S gone
 
Last edited:

Epikhairz

Anything goes
Hey, I wanted to pitch in my own two cents on the "big three" of the current OU metagame (Urshifu, Magearna, Spectrier). Personally, I would strongly support a suspect test of all three of these mons, and while I believe the first two are broken, I am still on the fence about Spectrier.

:urshifu:
About Urshifu, everyone's already got the gist of it down it seems, but it is simply too powerful in this metagame and as such restricts teambuilding, as the overwhelming question by far when in the builder is whether you have an answer or three for handling Urshifu. As such, it should be priority number one for receiving a suspect test in my opinion. With its offensive toolkit there are very few Pokemon in the metagame that can keep it in check and once they've been dispatched (either through general team support, Future Sight support, or even on its own with Poison Jab / the rare Aerial Ace) Urshifu blows teams apart with ease. Adding insult to injury is the fact that you can't even scout its move out with Protect thanks to its busted ability so you are easily forced into taking a strong hit, and likely the one that's a guaranteed crit - this is Game Freak giving the middle finger to all competitive players.

:magearna:
Magearna is the one that I wanted to talk about most, since for me I find it to be broken and in between Urshifu and Spectrier in priority of when to suspect - the reason being that while not as overpowering as Urshifu, its own power along with its versatility are what push it over the edge for me. Though it has a huge variety of sets it could run, its two most common ones are Specs and Double Dance (Shift Gear + Calm Mind) and though these two sets probably aren't broken on their own, with Mag's diverse movepool, the fact that they can cover their checks and counters between sets and even within the individual sets themselves are what make the mon overall broken to me. If you don't have a blanket check that covers every Magearna set (of which there aren't many if at all), you're forced into a guessing game when trying to scout the set which can end in critical walls getting broken or getting set up on if you guess wrong. If you want to consistently avoid losing in situations like this you either have to bring that blanket check for every Magearna set or bring enough options to cover for your own potential screwup, which I feel is quite restrictive to teambuilding as well. Even once you've scouted the set, Specs set in particular still is such a dominating no-drawback mon with Volt Switch to pick up easy momentum and Trick to cripple its checks, though again it is this set in conjunction with the others that push it over the top to broken territory.

:spectrier:
Finally, as for Spectrier, the fact that its offensive stats and typing are so good along with the fact that it does have few to no true counters with its set options is a little worrisome. However, the reason that I say I am on the fence about it is because I feel like as long as you have some basic counterplay against its Ghost type attacks, you can minimize its influence on the game just through keeping up pressure and momentum (though the fact that it mandates this counterplay may itself be unhealthy if it does constitute as overcentralizing, which I'm not sure of yet). Obviously it is a really potent wincon if it does get the opening that it's looking for, but Spectrier typically shines in the endgame, whereas Urshifu and Magearna maintain its suffocating pressure on you for the entire duration of the game.

TL;DR: I'd like to see a suspect of Urshifu, Magearna, and Spectrier in that order of priority. Urshifu and Magearna are definitely broken IMO, Spectrier I'm on the fence about still but I can see it either way.
 
I'm going to jump on the "suspect Urshifu-SS ASAP" bandwagon here. Most points that I'll be raising here have probably already been covered by others more experienced than I am, but I believe they need to be reiterated just because of how much of a menace Urshifu is (and has been for quite some time).

:ss/urshifu:

Let's discuss the three Pokémon that are most commonly used to check Urshifu-SS:
  • Clefable (:clefable:) : I see a bunch of teams with Clefable thinking that they have what they need to fend off Urshifu-SS. The fact of the matter is, Urshifu-SS has multiple ways to get around Clefable. One could predict well enough and land a Poison Jab/Iron Head on it, rendering it useless if pressured enough to not let it heal back up with Softboiled. Moreover, Clefable is notoriously easy to wear down, and is used as a physical blanket check to multiple, common, offensive Pokémon in the tier. To illustrate, consider a typical HO team in the tier. You might find the following: :hawlucha:, :rillaboom:, :garchomp:, :urshifu: (just off the top of my head). Notice how many of the teams running around on the ladder check all of these (on paper) with their Clefable. Most HO teams would run 2 or more of the above mentioned Pokémon on the same squad. I realize that this is how these HO teams are meant to function, but the fact that Urshifu-SS is checked reliably only by Clefable (in this scenario) whereas the others have more well defined counter-play puts it over the edge. Clefable is just laughably simple to overwhelm. Not to mention, Future Sight support also completely wrecks most Clefables, since they are forced to run heavy Phys. Def. investment.

  • Weezing-Galar (:weezing-galar:) and Buzzwole (:buzzwole:) : Clubbing these together because they both share the same weaknesses for the most part. They have hilariously low base Sp. Def., making them all too easy to take out with Future Sight support. They have to pick Leftovers (:leftovers:) /Black Sludge (:black sludge:) or Heavy Duty Boots (:heavy duty boots:) or Rocky Helmet (:rocky helmet:), making it easy to take them out through continual chip, either through just getting them to switch in on repeated attacks, or hazards. Further, Weezing-Galar can be hit with Iron Head (and Posion Jab to a lesser degree), and Buzzwole is pretty easy to get a lethal status on, rendering it much less useful.

Some other ways to deal with Urshifu include simply revenge-killing with a faster Pokémon, or through priority. I feel that these are unreliable at best, and leave a bit too much up to how the teams match up. Note that revenge killing Urshifu is not the easiest thing to do, since it has a good speed tier and access to priority through Sucker Punch. One cannot even scout its choiced sets with Protect, thanks to Unseen Fist.

The point is, there's no actual solid, reliable counter-play, and a decently played Urshifu-SS will either straight up destroy your team or leave holes so large that an otherwise manageable threat will destroy it, especially with the right support. Even though I'm no soothsayer, I feel like the departure of Urshifu-SS from the OU tier (or a suspect test that actually brings about viable ways to defend against Urshifu-SS's assault) will be one of the largest accelerants for the metagame, more than most of the suspect tests and resultant bans so far, especially since we've been preparing teams and inventing counterplay largely centred around Urshifu-SS ever since it has entered the tier. I feel like this threat should have been addressed much earlier, but better late than never.
 
What are people's thoughts on Gapdos now that Mosa is gone? I find that it's a good offensive check to urshifu, and is a pretty good setup sweeper now that Mosa isn't there to ruin it's day. Here's a set I've been labbing out

Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 144 HP / 112 Atk / 252 Spe
- Thunderous Kick
- Brave Bird
- Agility
- Bulk Up

144 hp turns banded wicked blow/CC into a 3HKO after leftovers recovery, and lives any attack into a sucker punch as well. 112 Atk let's brave bird OHKO urshifu from full, or thunderous kick can OHKO with some prior chip or a bulk up.
Gapdos can also muscle past defensive cores, as it can take an uninvested moonblast from defensive fairies, defensive walls are heavily pressured by thunderous kicks defense drops, and is a defog/mystical fire deterrent thanks to defiant. Overall I think the meta has swung in gapdos' favor
 

Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor
This isnt a post to push for a suspect immediately, even tho I kinda want that I understand the drawbacks.

This post is to ask - what are the arguments for NOT banning Urshifu?
You could say that:
- it struggles against the two best walls in the tier (Pex and Clef)
- its stab moves having only 8 PPs can make it unreliable against fat teams, especially against pressure user
- Urshifu being a dark type that doesn't check ghosts make it a bit annoying to build with,
- Future Sight + TP is not as reliable as it seems, in quite a few match-ups it's very difficult to set up
- it's reliant on contact moves, which can be abused by RH, Static and Flame Body

That's the best I could come up with, but either way, the question here is not should we ban Urshifu or not, but rather should it get suspect tested or not. And the arguments against that would be that the problem might be elsewhere, and that we should focus on other threats and see after that how teams adapt to it. But as I said, it's more likely that Urshifu is the most restrictive threat of the bunch.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Jaajgko wait, how does Urshifu struggle against Toxapex when Pex cannot switch in to it?

252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that is not counting any choice band, which is a clean two hit kill or something close, or life orbs which they usually carry
 
Test multiple things at once. This isn't brain surgery. Voters minds don't explode at the polls when there's a president, senator, representative and dog catcher on the same ballot. The fundamentals of the problematic mons will not change as you ban them piece by piece. It's silly. There's no adapting to Magearna, it adapts to you. If the goal of the current system is to waste as much time on repetitive posts on tests with a forgone conclusion as possible, it's great. If the goal is to get the meta to a "mature" endgame state with maximum viability of all playstyles, it's an abject failure. Go faster. Just quickban this shit tbh, does anyone actually think Magearna and Urshifu will survive their respective suspects? It's a big ol waste of time other than handing out TC badges but I'm sure someone will yell at me that 500 posts with identical opinions dunking on the mons is useful community input.
 
Test multiple things at once. This isn't brain surgery. Voters minds don't explode at the polls when there's a president, senator, representative and dog catcher on the same ballot. The fundamentals of the problematic mons will not change as you ban them piece by piece. It's silly. There's no adapting to Magearna, it adapts to you. If the goal of the current system is to waste as much time on repetitive posts on tests with a forgone conclusion as possible, it's great. If the goal is to get the meta to a "mature" endgame state with maximum viability of all playstyles, it's an abject failure. Go faster. Just quickban this shit tbh, does anyone actually think Magearna and Urshifu will survive their respective suspects? It's a big ol waste of time but I'm sure someone will yell at me that 500 posts with identical opinions dunking on the mons is useful community input.
Dynamics of teambuilding change with every ban and testing multiple things at once would lead to skewed results based on outdated metagames. Dont respond to this, this is not a discussion we are having.
 

Kyurem @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power

Idk if this was posted before, but this is a pretty fun Kyurem set to use. Specs is strong, but mispredicts can screw you over. So naturally, a Kyurem that can switch moves can be quite menacing. Nothing is quite as satisfying as watching an opponent switch in their Kyurem answer (whether its a bulky water/Heatran/sp. def Tyranitar) and watching it get blown apart by a follow up Freeze-Dry or appropriate coverage move.

As for the item, I toyed around with Life Orb, but I prefer Never-Melt Ice because you can bluff a Choice Specs and catch the opponent off guard. Kyurem clicks either Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry most of the time anyway, and Earth Power/Focus Blast doesn't really need a boost to dent/kill its targets (Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, w/e).

If Earth Power/Focus Blast seems redundant, maybe replace one with Roost for longevity. Of course, pair this with Knock Off/Hazards to get rid of annoying Assault Vest/Boots users.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 7, Guests: 4)

Top