If someone wants something else banned first.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
That seems daft ngl. The only other mons ive seen suggested are Spectrier and Mag - neither of whom ive seen as much backlash to as Shifu.
Plus just cos other stuff could be banworthy too, doesn't make Urshifu any less banworthy
Well yea, I don't think anyone is arguing that Urshifu is balanced, it's just many may see Magearna or Spectrier as more banworthy and as the general consensus is 1 ban at a time, that could postpone Urshifu a bit. This time there's no more DLC (that we know of), so I have confidence that all 4 mons currently on the chopping block will soon receive their due conversation.
I like to come and see the OU forum and it was the same during months.. never saw someone saying the meta was ok or fun.. always some mon make the tier hard to play... I mean first was Zygod and KyuB, second Mosa, and now Urshifu, Spectrier o Mag (or Ace or (insert opresive mon)) wich make asking inself when a meta is gonna be playable?
Lets wait and pls Nintendo dont make a new Pokemón DLC next year with the rest of the mons....
Lets wait and pls Nintendo dont make a new Pokemón DLC next year with the rest of the mons....
Metas are always changing and evolving, and there will always be mons that should be removed. Saying that we shouldn't bother with suspect tests is silly. Usually we strive for a balanced tier, whether it's fun or not is almost always a secondary concern.
Keeping the most consistent counter to balance mons that actually pose a threat to stall
Nidoking is also very consistent against balance/stall, defensive pokemon absolutely despise it
Edit: for real, everybody worrying about stall/home meta bulky balance becoming too strong again conveniently forgets how 4 attack Nidoking utterly demolishes slower bulky teams, and how the overall meta has slowed down enough for Nidoking to become a very prominent threat against every bulky mon bar Blissey (and to a lesser extent chansey). Offense will do just fine with Urshifu-S gone
Last edited:
Epikhairz
Anything goes
Hey, I wanted to pitch in my own two cents on the "big three" of the current OU metagame (Urshifu, Magearna, Spectrier). Personally, I would strongly support a suspect test of all three of these mons, and while I believe the first two are broken, I am still on the fence about Spectrier.
About Urshifu, everyone's already got the gist of it down it seems, but it is simply too powerful in this metagame and as such restricts teambuilding, as the overwhelming question by far when in the builder is whether you have an answer or three for handling Urshifu. As such, it should be priority number one for receiving a suspect test in my opinion. With its offensive toolkit there are very few Pokemon in the metagame that can keep it in check and once they've been dispatched (either through general team support, Future Sight support, or even on its own with Poison Jab / the rare Aerial Ace) Urshifu blows teams apart with ease. Adding insult to injury is the fact that you can't even scout its move out with Protect thanks to its busted ability so you are easily forced into taking a strong hit, and likely the one that's a guaranteed crit - this is Game Freak giving the middle finger to all competitive players.
Magearna is the one that I wanted to talk about most, since for me I find it to be broken and in between Urshifu and Spectrier in priority of when to suspect - the reason being that while not as overpowering as Urshifu, its own power along with its versatility are what push it over the edge for me. Though it has a huge variety of sets it could run, its two most common ones are Specs and Double Dance (Shift Gear + Calm Mind) and though these two sets probably aren't broken on their own, with Mag's diverse movepool, the fact that they can cover their checks and counters between sets and even within the individual sets themselves are what make the mon overall broken to me. If you don't have a blanket check that covers every Magearna set (of which there aren't many if at all), you're forced into a guessing game when trying to scout the set which can end in critical walls getting broken or getting set up on if you guess wrong. If you want to consistently avoid losing in situations like this you either have to bring that blanket check for every Magearna set or bring enough options to cover for your own potential screwup, which I feel is quite restrictive to teambuilding as well. Even once you've scouted the set, Specs set in particular still is such a dominating no-drawback mon with Volt Switch to pick up easy momentum and Trick to cripple its checks, though again it is this set in conjunction with the others that push it over the top to broken territory.
Finally, as for Spectrier, the fact that its offensive stats and typing are so good along with the fact that it does have few to no true counters with its set options is a little worrisome. However, the reason that I say I am on the fence about it is because I feel like as long as you have some basic counterplay against its Ghost type attacks, you can minimize its influence on the game just through keeping up pressure and momentum (though the fact that it mandates this counterplay may itself be unhealthy if it does constitute as overcentralizing, which I'm not sure of yet). Obviously it is a really potent wincon if it does get the opening that it's looking for, but Spectrier typically shines in the endgame, whereas Urshifu and Magearna maintain its suffocating pressure on you for the entire duration of the game.
TL;DR: I'd like to see a suspect of Urshifu, Magearna, and Spectrier in that order of priority. Urshifu and Magearna are definitely broken IMO, Spectrier I'm on the fence about still but I can see it either way.
About Urshifu, everyone's already got the gist of it down it seems, but it is simply too powerful in this metagame and as such restricts teambuilding, as the overwhelming question by far when in the builder is whether you have an answer or three for handling Urshifu. As such, it should be priority number one for receiving a suspect test in my opinion. With its offensive toolkit there are very few Pokemon in the metagame that can keep it in check and once they've been dispatched (either through general team support, Future Sight support, or even on its own with Poison Jab / the rare Aerial Ace) Urshifu blows teams apart with ease. Adding insult to injury is the fact that you can't even scout its move out with Protect thanks to its busted ability so you are easily forced into taking a strong hit, and likely the one that's a guaranteed crit - this is Game Freak giving the middle finger to all competitive players.
Magearna is the one that I wanted to talk about most, since for me I find it to be broken and in between Urshifu and Spectrier in priority of when to suspect - the reason being that while not as overpowering as Urshifu, its own power along with its versatility are what push it over the edge for me. Though it has a huge variety of sets it could run, its two most common ones are Specs and Double Dance (Shift Gear + Calm Mind) and though these two sets probably aren't broken on their own, with Mag's diverse movepool, the fact that they can cover their checks and counters between sets and even within the individual sets themselves are what make the mon overall broken to me. If you don't have a blanket check that covers every Magearna set (of which there aren't many if at all), you're forced into a guessing game when trying to scout the set which can end in critical walls getting broken or getting set up on if you guess wrong. If you want to consistently avoid losing in situations like this you either have to bring that blanket check for every Magearna set or bring enough options to cover for your own potential screwup, which I feel is quite restrictive to teambuilding as well. Even once you've scouted the set, Specs set in particular still is such a dominating no-drawback mon with Volt Switch to pick up easy momentum and Trick to cripple its checks, though again it is this set in conjunction with the others that push it over the top to broken territory.
Finally, as for Spectrier, the fact that its offensive stats and typing are so good along with the fact that it does have few to no true counters with its set options is a little worrisome. However, the reason that I say I am on the fence about it is because I feel like as long as you have some basic counterplay against its Ghost type attacks, you can minimize its influence on the game just through keeping up pressure and momentum (though the fact that it mandates this counterplay may itself be unhealthy if it does constitute as overcentralizing, which I'm not sure of yet). Obviously it is a really potent wincon if it does get the opening that it's looking for, but Spectrier typically shines in the endgame, whereas Urshifu and Magearna maintain its suffocating pressure on you for the entire duration of the game.
TL;DR: I'd like to see a suspect of Urshifu, Magearna, and Spectrier in that order of priority. Urshifu and Magearna are definitely broken IMO, Spectrier I'm on the fence about still but I can see it either way.
I'm going to jump on the "suspect Urshifu-SS ASAP" bandwagon here. Most points that I'll be raising here have probably already been covered by others more experienced than I am, but I believe they need to be reiterated just because of how much of a menace Urshifu is (and has been for quite some time).
Let's discuss the three Pokémon that are most commonly used to check Urshifu-SS:
Some other ways to deal with Urshifu include simply revenge-killing with a faster Pokémon, or through priority. I feel that these are unreliable at best, and leave a bit too much up to how the teams match up. Note that revenge killing Urshifu is not the easiest thing to do, since it has a good speed tier and access to priority through Sucker Punch. One cannot even scout its choiced sets with Protect, thanks to Unseen Fist.
The point is, there's no actual solid, reliable counter-play, and a decently played Urshifu-SS will either straight up destroy your team or leave holes so large that an otherwise manageable threat will destroy it, especially with the right support. Even though I'm no soothsayer, I feel like the departure of Urshifu-SS from the OU tier (or a suspect test that actually brings about viable ways to defend against Urshifu-SS's assault) will be one of the largest accelerants for the metagame, more than most of the suspect tests and resultant bans so far, especially since we've been preparing teams and inventing counterplay largely centred around Urshifu-SS ever since it has entered the tier. I feel like this threat should have been addressed much earlier, but better late than never.
Let's discuss the three Pokémon that are most commonly used to check Urshifu-SS:
- Clefable (
) : I see a bunch of teams with Clefable thinking that they have what they need to fend off Urshifu-SS. The fact of the matter is, Urshifu-SS has multiple ways to get around Clefable. One could predict well enough and land a Poison Jab/Iron Head on it, rendering it useless if pressured enough to not let it heal back up with Softboiled. Moreover, Clefable is notoriously easy to wear down, and is used as a physical blanket check to multiple, common, offensive Pokémon in the tier. To illustrate, consider a typical HO team in the tier. You might find the following: 
, 
, 
, (just off the top of my head). Notice how many of the teams running around on the ladder check all of these (on paper) with their Clefable. Most HO teams would run 2 or more of the above mentioned Pokémon on the same squad. I realize that this is how these HO teams are meant to function, but the fact that Urshifu-SS is checked reliably only by Clefable (in this scenario) whereas the others have more well defined counter-play puts it over the edge. Clefable is just laughably simple to overwhelm. Not to mention, Future Sight support also completely wrecks most Clefables, since they are forced to run heavy Phys. Def. investment.
- Weezing-Galar (
) and Buzzwole (
) : Clubbing these together because they both share the same weaknesses for the most part. They have hilariously low base Sp. Def., making them all too easy to take out with Future Sight support. They have to pick Leftovers (
) /Black Sludge (
) or Heavy Duty Boots (
) or Rocky Helmet (
), making it easy to take them out through continual chip, either through just getting them to switch in on repeated attacks, or hazards. Further, Weezing-Galar can be hit with Iron Head (and Posion Jab to a lesser degree), and Buzzwole is pretty easy to get a lethal status on, rendering it much less useful.
Some other ways to deal with Urshifu include simply revenge-killing with a faster Pokémon, or through priority. I feel that these are unreliable at best, and leave a bit too much up to how the teams match up. Note that revenge killing Urshifu is not the easiest thing to do, since it has a good speed tier and access to priority through Sucker Punch. One cannot even scout its choiced sets with Protect, thanks to Unseen Fist.
The point is, there's no actual solid, reliable counter-play, and a decently played Urshifu-SS will either straight up destroy your team or leave holes so large that an otherwise manageable threat will destroy it, especially with the right support. Even though I'm no soothsayer, I feel like the departure of Urshifu-SS from the OU tier (or a suspect test that actually brings about viable ways to defend against Urshifu-SS's assault) will be one of the largest accelerants for the metagame, more than most of the suspect tests and resultant bans so far, especially since we've been preparing teams and inventing counterplay largely centred around Urshifu-SS ever since it has entered the tier. I feel like this threat should have been addressed much earlier, but better late than never.
What are people's thoughts on Gapdos now that Mosa is gone? I find that it's a good offensive check to urshifu, and is a pretty good setup sweeper now that Mosa isn't there to ruin it's day. Here's a set I've been labbing out
Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 144 HP / 112 Atk / 252 Spe
- Thunderous Kick
- Brave Bird
- Agility
- Bulk Up
144 hp turns banded wicked blow/CC into a 3HKO after leftovers recovery, and lives any attack into a sucker punch as well. 112 Atk let's brave bird OHKO urshifu from full, or thunderous kick can OHKO with some prior chip or a bulk up.
Gapdos can also muscle past defensive cores, as it can take an uninvested moonblast from defensive fairies, defensive walls are heavily pressured by thunderous kicks defense drops, and is a defog/mystical fire deterrent thanks to defiant. Overall I think the meta has swung in gapdos' favor
Zapdos-Galar @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 144 HP / 112 Atk / 252 Spe
- Thunderous Kick
- Brave Bird
- Agility
- Bulk Up
144 hp turns banded wicked blow/CC into a 3HKO after leftovers recovery, and lives any attack into a sucker punch as well. 112 Atk let's brave bird OHKO urshifu from full, or thunderous kick can OHKO with some prior chip or a bulk up.
Gapdos can also muscle past defensive cores, as it can take an uninvested moonblast from defensive fairies, defensive walls are heavily pressured by thunderous kicks defense drops, and is a defog/mystical fire deterrent thanks to defiant. Overall I think the meta has swung in gapdos' favor
You could say that:
- it struggles against the two best walls in the tier (Pex and Clef)
- its stab moves having only 8 PPs can make it unreliable against fat teams, especially against pressure user
- Urshifu being a dark type that doesn't check ghosts make it a bit annoying to build with,
- Future Sight + TP is not as reliable as it seems, in quite a few match-ups it's very difficult to set up
- it's reliant on contact moves, which can be abused by RH, Static and Flame Body
That's the best I could come up with, but either way, the question here is not should we ban Urshifu or not, but rather should it get suspect tested or not. And the arguments against that would be that the problem might be elsewhere, and that we should focus on other threats and see after that how teams adapt to it. But as I said, it's more likely that Urshifu is the most restrictive threat of the bunch.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Jaajgko wait, how does Urshifu struggle against Toxapex when Pex cannot switch in to it?
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And that is not counting any choice band, which is a clean two hit kill or something close, or life orbs which they usually carry
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And that is not counting any choice band, which is a clean two hit kill or something close, or life orbs which they usually carry
Test multiple things at once. This isn't brain surgery. Voters minds don't explode at the polls when there's a president, senator, representative and dog catcher on the same ballot. The fundamentals of the problematic mons will not change as you ban them piece by piece. It's silly. There's no adapting to Magearna, it adapts to you. If the goal of the current system is to waste as much time on repetitive posts on tests with a forgone conclusion as possible, it's great. If the goal is to get the meta to a "mature" endgame state with maximum viability of all playstyles, it's an abject failure. Go faster. Just quickban this shit tbh, does anyone actually think Magearna and Urshifu will survive their respective suspects? It's a big ol waste of time other than handing out TC badges but I'm sure someone will yell at me that 500 posts with identical opinions dunking on the mons is useful community input.
Dynamics of teambuilding change with every ban and testing multiple things at once would lead to skewed results based on outdated metagames. Dont respond to this, this is not a discussion we are having.
Kyurem @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
Idk if this was posted before, but this is a pretty fun Kyurem set to use. Specs is strong, but mispredicts can screw you over. So naturally, a Kyurem that can switch moves can be quite menacing. Nothing is quite as satisfying as watching an opponent switch in their Kyurem answer (whether its a bulky water/Heatran/sp. def Tyranitar) and watching it get blown apart by a follow up Freeze-Dry or appropriate coverage move.
As for the item, I toyed around with Life Orb, but I prefer Never-Melt Ice because you can bluff a Choice Specs and catch the opponent off guard. Kyurem clicks either Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry most of the time anyway, and Earth Power/Focus Blast doesn't really need a boost to dent/kill its targets (Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, w/e).
If Earth Power/Focus Blast seems redundant, maybe replace one with Roost for longevity. Of course, pair this with Knock Off/Hazards to get rid of annoying Assault Vest/Boots users.
If you're going to use roost I'd also make the item Life orb, which makes the set kinda like a bulky latios
Kyurem @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
Idk if this was posted before, but this is a pretty fun Kyurem set to use. Specs is strong, but mispredicts can screw you over. So naturally, a Kyurem that can switch moves can be quite menacing. Nothing is quite as satisfying as watching an opponent switch in their Kyurem answer (whether its a bulky water/Heatran/sp. def Tyranitar) and watching it get blown apart by a follow up Freeze-Dry or appropriate coverage move.
As for the item, I toyed around with Life Orb, but I prefer Never-Melt Ice because you can bluff a Choice Specs and catch the opponent off guard. Kyurem clicks either Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry most of the time anyway, and Earth Power/Focus Blast doesn't really need a boost to dent/kill its targets (Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, w/e).
If Earth Power/Focus Blast seems redundant, maybe replace one with Roost for longevity. Of course, pair this with Knock Off/Hazards to get rid of annoying Assault Vest/Boots users.
For the love of all that is holy ban this thing. If the opponent isn't packing a Normal type (of which there is only one in OU) a proper set up from ANY point in the game can spell gg. With a Sub+Disable set packing Calm Mind and Shadow Ball, it finds ample opportunities to get it's stuff going among the common fat glue mons in Mandibuzz (even with Knock), Toxapez (even with Haze), Clef, and Corv. It goes without saying that the Offensive mons of the tier can't hope to switch in on this thing and come out with enough HP to retaliate, lest they just become fodder for the (incredibly poorly designed) Grim Neigh, but even fatter mons can do jack diddly squat to try and force it out if the switch is read with the aforementioned Sub+Disable set. It's a very bad sign when not even "sack and pray" works because Grim Neigh giving it even more pure power.
Neither me or my opponent were exceptionally high ELO (high/mid 1500s), but I think it articulates my point very well, one bad move cost my opponent the game in just a few turns.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249429917-d7nerxy2uuexh3n77p56pfawq5df0r6pw
The fact that I built this team to scope out Future Sight+Urshifu as a threat and slapped Spectrier on as an afterthought, and it proceeded to be the shining star on my team and take me from 1300s to cracking into 1600 all in an hour or so of play, speaks volumes.
TL;DR
Last edited:
I want to give my personal, and small opinion about Spectrier.
Rn this horse is considered one of "The Big Three" alongside Urshifu and Magearna. While it lacks movepool, Spectrier has great Special Attack and Speed, one of the best ofensive typings in mono-ghost, and a great ability. Everyone who has encountered or even used this mon knows very well how powerful it is, but, for me, it's the least problematic of the current "problematic" mons.
I'm not denying the fact of how dumb and powerful this mon is, it even centralizes the meta to the point that people are even using Blissey with Shadow Ball to stop it, but in the current state of the meta, I see Spectrier's situation similiar to Pheromosa's situation when DLC2 dropped, and I'm talking about how she was not "broken" at all when Genesect, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B and Zygarde were available. Welp, Spectrier is not going to be complety broken until the more problematic mons get banned. Apparently everyone is looking at Urshifu-S right now, and who can blame them? If in a future Shifu get suspected and banned (I'm not desperate for the council to make a suspect right now. If anyone in the council reads this, take your time, I admire your work and dedication), that's when Spectrier will unleash it's full potential since one of it's best checks got banned. If hypothetically speaking Magearna is next and gets banned, Spectrier will benefit even more.
TL;DR, Spectrier is not problematic or ban worthy... yet. It only will be if Shifu and/or Mag get banned first.
Rn this horse is considered one of "The Big Three" alongside Urshifu and Magearna. While it lacks movepool, Spectrier has great Special Attack and Speed, one of the best ofensive typings in mono-ghost, and a great ability. Everyone who has encountered or even used this mon knows very well how powerful it is, but, for me, it's the least problematic of the current "problematic" mons.
I'm not denying the fact of how dumb and powerful this mon is, it even centralizes the meta to the point that people are even using Blissey with Shadow Ball to stop it, but in the current state of the meta, I see Spectrier's situation similiar to Pheromosa's situation when DLC2 dropped, and I'm talking about how she was not "broken" at all when Genesect, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B and Zygarde were available. Welp, Spectrier is not going to be complety broken until the more problematic mons get banned. Apparently everyone is looking at Urshifu-S right now, and who can blame them? If in a future Shifu get suspected and banned (I'm not desperate for the council to make a suspect right now. If anyone in the council reads this, take your time, I admire your work and dedication), that's when Spectrier will unleash it's full potential since one of it's best checks got banned. If hypothetically speaking Magearna is next and gets banned, Spectrier will benefit even more.
TL;DR, Spectrier is not problematic or ban worthy... yet. It only will be if Shifu and/or Mag get banned first.
Everyone is complaining about Spectrier and Magearna and asking for multiple bans when the OU council already said theyre suspecting them one by one so there's no use complaining about them. Instead, here's 2 already viable sets on balanced that are very underrated and can both check Spectrier and Magearna. I've personally been addicted to them.
@
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Toxic
I'm a huge Hippo enthusiast. Every gen, no matter what, even when in gen 7 he was UU for a period, I'm always on the hippo train. SpD set is currently my fav atm as it checks half the special threats in the tier. On top of it, it poses a strong threat offensively as Earthquake hits surprisingly hard while Toxic can be spread pretty easily. Best of all, it can reset weather since weather is pretty rampant rn with rain/sun and having that option is really cool.
It counters Tapu Koko, Regieleki, and Aegislash
It soft counters Zapdos and Nidoking
It checks Heatran, Magearna, Spectrier, Latios, and Volcarona
Tapu Koko and Regieleki are obvious. Aegislash can't do anything either.
"soft counters" because basically they counter 80%+ of the sets they run. For example, Nidoking can never 2HKO with anything bar Ice Beam, but it can OHKO back with EQ. Zapdos can't 2hko with Hurricane unless its Specs, or you know if the your opponent has built in mind reader in his keyboard and confuses you.
As for checks, Latios is also walled unless it's trick, or specs Surf. The chance of Specs Draco Meteor 2HKOing is actually low. Heatran can wear you down with Toxic and Magma Storm with the occasional Taunt, but at least Hippowdon can switch-in a couple of times. Volcarona is 1v1'd unless it's Safegaurd or Sub. Spectrier actually cannot 2HKO with specs unless they get the drop, if rocks are up the chance is low. EQ breaks Spectrier's sub even when burned, unless heavily invested in HP/Def. Magearna is 1v1'd in all of its sets bar specs Ice Beam. However Hippowdon cannot switch into it. Hippo also actually counters Shift Gear + CM Magearna completely (unless Ice Beam shuca or something random).
@ or
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Wish
CM Unaware Clefable has been a personal favorite for the past maybe 4 years. I love this mon because not only can it counter pokemon MG Clef already counters, but it can also counter set up threats and even pose a solid wincon. I usually only run this on my semi-stall teams but I feel like there's so many set up threats in the current metagame that its worth putting on some balance teams.
Physical set-up threats that Unaware Clefable can counters: BU Urshifu, SD Rillaboom, and SD Chomp (LO is checked not countered).
Physical threats that MG Clefable checks but Unaware Clefable counters completely: DD Dragapult, DD Dragonite, and SD Hawlucha,
Set-up threats that are only countered by CM Unaware and can be used a set up bait: Volcarona, Suicune, MG Clefable, SubCM Spectrier, DualDance Magearna.
Yeah that's right, it doesn't matter if your Wisp Hex Spectrier or SubDisable nasty plot, Clefable will set up CMs and potentially reverse-sweep your team. If Spectrier sets up a sub on the switch, and then either NPs, CMs, or Wisps while you CM, you 1v1 it. Magearna also can never match Clefable even with Stored Power, as long as you switch into Clefable immediately.
Last moveslot can be anything, as per usual on Clef. Thunder Wave can bait in Heatran, Knock off is awesome, Rocks if you need it, Wish is also nice for team, while Heal Bell is a solid cleric and can make Clefable's sweeping potential even higher.
I think pretty much 90% of people agree that Urshifu/Magearna/Spectrier are broken and should be banned, so just give it time. Instead of complaining about the same things over and over, we can just keep moving the discussion in a healthy direction
@ Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Toxic
I'm a huge Hippo enthusiast. Every gen, no matter what, even when in gen 7 he was UU for a period, I'm always on the hippo train. SpD set is currently my fav atm as it checks half the special threats in the tier. On top of it, it poses a strong threat offensively as Earthquake hits surprisingly hard while Toxic can be spread pretty easily. Best of all, it can reset weather since weather is pretty rampant rn with rain/sun and having that option is really cool.
It counters Tapu Koko, Regieleki, and Aegislash
It soft counters Zapdos and Nidoking
It checks Heatran, Magearna, Spectrier, Latios, and Volcarona
Tapu Koko and Regieleki are obvious. Aegislash can't do anything either.
"soft counters" because basically they counter 80%+ of the sets they run. For example, Nidoking can never 2HKO with anything bar Ice Beam, but it can OHKO back with EQ. Zapdos can't 2hko with Hurricane unless its Specs, or you know if the your opponent has built in mind reader in his keyboard and confuses you.
As for checks, Latios is also walled unless it's trick, or specs Surf. The chance of Specs Draco Meteor 2HKOing is actually low. Heatran can wear you down with Toxic and Magma Storm with the occasional Taunt, but at least Hippowdon can switch-in a couple of times. Volcarona is 1v1'd unless it's Safegaurd or Sub. Spectrier actually cannot 2HKO with specs unless they get the drop, if rocks are up the chance is low. EQ breaks Spectrier's sub even when burned, unless heavily invested in HP/Def. Magearna is 1v1'd in all of its sets bar specs Ice Beam. However Hippowdon cannot switch into it. Hippo also actually counters Shift Gear + CM Magearna completely (unless Ice Beam shuca or something random).
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 165-196 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 154-183 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and trapping damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 191-225 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 90-106 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 154-183 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and trapping damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 191-225 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 90-106 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
@ or Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell / Wish
CM Unaware Clefable has been a personal favorite for the past maybe 4 years. I love this mon because not only can it counter pokemon MG Clef already counters, but it can also counter set up threats and even pose a solid wincon. I usually only run this on my semi-stall teams but I feel like there's so many set up threats in the current metagame that its worth putting on some balance teams.
Physical set-up threats that Unaware Clefable can counters: BU Urshifu, SD Rillaboom, and SD Chomp (LO is checked not countered).
Physical threats that MG Clefable checks but Unaware Clefable counters completely: DD Dragapult, DD Dragonite, and SD Hawlucha,
Set-up threats that are only countered by CM Unaware and can be used a set up bait: Volcarona, Suicune, MG Clefable, SubCM Spectrier, DualDance Magearna.
Yeah that's right, it doesn't matter if your Wisp Hex Spectrier or SubDisable nasty plot, Clefable will set up CMs and potentially reverse-sweep your team. If Spectrier sets up a sub on the switch, and then either NPs, CMs, or Wisps while you CM, you 1v1 it. Magearna also can never match Clefable even with Stored Power, as long as you switch into Clefable immediately.
Last moveslot can be anything, as per usual on Clef. Thunder Wave can bait in Heatran, Knock off is awesome, Rocks if you need it, Wish is also nice for team, while Heal Bell is a solid cleric and can make Clefable's sweeping potential even higher.
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 181-214 (46 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+6 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 104-123 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 16.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 174-204 (52 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 104-123 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 16.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 174-204 (52 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think pretty much 90% of people agree that Urshifu/Magearna/Spectrier are broken and should be banned, so just give it time. Instead of complaining about the same things over and over, we can just keep moving the discussion in a healthy direction
Last edited:
I'm fairly certain the post you were replying to was hypothetical, but backlash is not really why things are banned. Prevailing opinion can definitely influence suspect tests, but it really only matters how much something restricts team building. Any of the pokemon you listed would be perfectly reasonable to suspect next. I think it will be pretty necessary to get all of them out of the tier eventually.
Many teams use physdef Toxapex to scout Urshifu's move and then bring in their bulky dark resist. Since Toxapex can recover about half of the damage it took from banded Wicked Blow, it can do so many times in the game. It can also PP stall wicked blow which only has 8 PPs. So yeah, usually facing Toxapex is quite troublesome for Urshifu, which is why it often has Future Sight support.
Urshifu is hardly one of Spectrier's best checks. It drops in two to Specs/+1 Shadow Ball, loses to SubDisable, has no recovery and for good measure risks getting burned and then dropping to Specs/+1 Hex in one next time it comes in. Arguably Spectrier forcing you to run a second check on a team with Urshifu is one of Urshifu's biggest downsides.
This is why, for reference for all those asking, we can't suspect all these threats at once: If Urshifu goes, thereby a slot (or two!) you would spend on counterplay gets freed up for Spectrier answers and so on. Rather than having to run Clefable+physically bulky Pex, you can run Blissey and a Specially Defensive Pex if your team needs that. Or you can use the slot you were spending on Shifu on a different, bulker Dark Type.
That being said, I very much support the spirit of this statement. Each of these has to go through a suspect to avoid a Cinderace situation where the retest of a quickbanned mon takes priority over other things which are considered more pressing. And say, if two of them get banned, that could open up enough space in the teambuilder to answer the third. My personal suspect order would be Shifu/Spec/Magearna/(possible Cinderace suspect, but waaayy too early to say).
I also want to mention that Tornadus-T is absolutely absurdly good. It has so many options against bulky builds or just as a Defogger. I'm amazed at how much it has gone under the radar because offensively, teams just run out of Flying resists in the long term, and with Boots it is impossible to wear down, even if you land a Toxic on it. Nasty Plot just feels a bit greedy, but it's yet another option to add to the "fuck Pex tbh" pile. Knock is Knock and Toxic is Toxic and fast U-turn is free chip. The 4MSS can be an issue, but all its sets have ways to force progress. No Pokemon should have this many options and be this hard to punish, but it does and it is. Enjoy.
Another user explained why (to me atleast) Urshifu isn't Spectrier's best check. And while I do believe that Spectrier is somewhat broken, Urshifu supposedly getting banned will only hurt him.
I do know that I'm theorising and nothing ahead can be proven, but bear with me.
Hypothetically, say Urshifu and Magearna do get banned. Then the plethora of dark types both of these were keeping under their foot will rise up. Think about it, Bisharp has access to both Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Isn't OHKO'ed by +1 Shadow Ball with Timid 252 SpA with Specs, can OHKO back. Can also go for knock off if Spectrier is Sub WoW or Sub CM and predicts a sub or WOW. (Even with burn Knock Off does 79 - 92% , making it unable to use substitute). And his utility doesn't end there as he can punish defoggers and go to town with +2.
But how can Bisharp survive in the same meta as Urshifu ? Urshifu invalidates the use of many dark types which would otherwise check Spectrier. Same goes for Magearna. SG + CM Magearna abuses Mandibuzz, Specs Magearna can take a hit from Dragapult and KO back. With both of these gone, Spectrier will be easier to deal with.
I may have been hasty in the past and said I support an Spectrier test (and a part of me still does), but after two days of deep thought and an aspect I mentioned but failed to address, my opinion may have swinged. The council has already said multiple mons wouldn't be suspected at once, as the meta undeniably shifts after a ban. And I have just some concerns that being hasty in forming our opinions may lead to (some of) us becoming too stubborn and voting on Spectrier based on his viability or brokeness in a meta completely different to the meta he may be suspected in.
Again, I don't have any prove that Urshifu or Magearna even affect Spectrier or will they be suspected before/after it, but compared to the brain-dead bear and Annabelle, the horse feels much more debatable and the meta shift may make it less unbalanced. Just my two cents on why the three shouldn't be quick banned or banned at the same time.
Side note :- I started in late gen 7 and was brushing up my knowledge on the past meta game, and I came across the suspect test thread of Mega Lucario, Genesect, and Deoxys - S in XY OU. I can't help but notice that there were way to many similarities.
Mega Lucario - Urshifu :- Both were brain dead and the opinions were highly one sided in the test. Only difference is that Mega Lucario could run both physical and special while Urshifu only needs one set to screw over the meta.
Genesect - Magearna :- Both are steel types whose arguably best sets were choice items ( Scarf and Specs) and both had a pivoting move. Difference being that Mag can take a hit and retailiate while Genesect just U turned until it came in a position to sweep. Also, both had a set with Shift Gear.
Deoxys S - Spectrier :- Both were the most debatable suspect. While there similarities don't lie in their archetypes but rather the communities view on them (from what i've seen).
It's not even important, just something I found wildly amusing.
Last edited:
Gonna stop you here. Theorymon isn’t allowed. We suspect and ban based off of the current metagame state. Using future theory and what could happen is not something involved in this process. If other problems pop up, we deal with them when they do pop up in the future.
Sorry, I will keep this in mind next time. Apologies.