Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Katy]

Specially Defensive + Heal Bell

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Iron Head
- Focus Blast / Fleur Cannon / Draining Kiss
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell

I thought about this Set recently, as status-conditions are big currently, such as Toxic from Toxapex, Will-O-Wisp from Spectrier and Dragapult, Thunder Wave versions of Clefable and Tyranitar and also the use of Toxic by a plethora of other Pokemon in the current metagame. It can also make it easier for the checks of Spectrier, like Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, and Urshifu-S to maintain as healthy as possible and to give them more opportunities over the course of a battle.​

This Set can work quite effective and can also check Pokemon like Spectrier, Dragapult, opposing Magearna, Regieleki, Tornadus-T, and it is also able to softcheck Quiver Dance-Pheremosa even after a +1 due to its boosting move after Stealth Rocks-chip. Sassy is chosen to not lower any stats, which are necessary on this Set and Leftovers is the item of choice on this set to grant it some longevity.
Volt switch helps to gain some slow momentum and to bring its teampartners in safely without them having to take any damage. Teampartners could include Landorus-Therian, Tornauds-Therian, and Moltres as reliable ground-immunes and as checks to the Pokemon Magearna struggles with such as Excadrill, Heatran, and Swampert. To add onto that, another great Partner is Rillaboom, as it can help vs rainteams with a strong Grassy Terrain-boosted Grassy Glide and can forme a VoltTurn-core with Magearna.
The remaining slot can be either Focus Blast to hit opposing steel-types such as Heatran or Melmetal. Fleur Cannon as a strong fairy-stab option, or Draining Kiss to regain some more health alongside its item in Leftovers. Draining kiss can help to maintain Magearna as healthy as possible.

In overall, due to many Pokemon running status-conditions to wear teams down and, this Set can not only help versus such status-conditions, it can also softcheck a good amount of threatening special attackers, such as the ones mentioned above. I feel this Set is worth a try and could find a niche in the current metagame.​

 

[TheTraininator]

On the topic of Suicune, here’s something that’s been on my mind recently.

Yes, I know that’s not Suicune, but bear wih me. Tapu Fini got a couple new toys this generation: access to its Hidden Ability Telepathy, and the move Rest, and the combination of these two things might give it a new unexplored niche in OU. You may be wondering what the significance of Telepathy in OU is; doesn’t it only have use in Doubles? Indeed that is the case, but the point is not that Telepathy itself is useful, but having an ability other than Misty Surge is useful when running Rest. If Tapu Fini runs Telepathy, it gains access to a recovery move, something it has never had before, (unless you count Aqua Ring), which could be useful in conjunction with Calm Mind.

Naturally, this brings us back to Suicune, as Crocune has used this combination for... how many generations now? Basically, I’m curious as to whether or not CroFini might be worth considering over Crocune. Essentially, Tapu Fini swaps out a decent chunk of physical bulk and Pressure for a Fairy typing, (their special bulk is mostly comparable, but Suicune has the slightest edge again though). While I think the lessened physical bulk is definitely a notable detriment to Fini, I feel like the typing difference might make certain matchups easier, and on certain teams, Fini might do even better, but I wanted to hear other people’s opinions on the matter.

Also, I only thought of this while typing, but if Vincune’s biggest achilles heel is status, doesn’t Misty Surge Tapu Fini provide a viable alternative, or is the loss of Pressure too detrimental?

 

[Jordy]

On the topic of Suicune, here’s something that’s been on my mind recently.
View attachment 294662
Yes, I know that’s not Suicune, but bear wih me. Tapu Fini got a couple new toys this generation: access to its Hidden Ability Telepathy, and the move Rest, and the combination of these two things might give it a new unexplored niche in OU. You may be wondering what the significance of Telepathy in OU is; doesn’t it only have use in Doubles? Indeed that is the case, but the point is not that Telepathy itself is useful, but having an ability other than Misty Surge is useful when running Rest. If Tapu Fini runs Telepathy, it gains access to a recovery move, something it has never had before, (unless you count Aqua Ring), which could be useful in conjunction with Calm Mind.

Naturally, this brings us back to Suicune, as Crocune has used this combination for... how many generations now? Basically, I’m curious as to whether or not CroFini might be worth considering over Crocune. Essentially, Tapu Fini swaps out a decent chunk of physical bulk and Pressure for a Fairy typing, (their special bulk is mostly comparable, but Suicune has the slightest edge again though). While I think the lessened physical bulk is definitely a notable detriment to Fini, I feel like the typing difference might make certain matchups easier, and on certain teams, Fini might do even better, but I wanted to hear other people’s opinions on the matter.

Also, I only thought of this while typing, but if Vincune’s biggest achilles heel is status, doesn’t Misty Surge Tapu Fini provide a viable alternative, or is the loss of Pressure too detrimental?

A Calm Mind Tapu Fini like this:

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt
- Calm Mind

has been seeing a lot of usage on ladder and is an excellent wincondition. It can easily shut down defensive cores like Toxapex + Moltres + Tyranitar, Slowbro + Mandibuzz, etc. This set is very comparable to Substitute + Calm Mind Primarina which was quite popular during certain periods of the Isle of Armor metagame. Access to Taunt makes a really big difference, though, as it allows Tapu Fini to shut down Toxapex and Blissey, 2 generally good checks to Primarina (Though Toxapex got PP stalled at worst). Misty Surge is certainly useful too because Tapu Fini can't be crippled by Toxic from Pokemon like Heatran as it tries to switch into play.

Ofcourse this set does come with its weaknesses; it struggles to get going against offensive teams and is pretty easily handled by bulky Grass-types like Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth, though only Ferrothorn is very relevant in the current metagame.

With that said, I honestly don't find this set to be very comparable to Suicune, as they have different objectives in mind. Suicune looks to PP stall Pokemon like Toxapex, which synergizes very nicely with Pokemon like Calm Mind Clefable, whereas Tapu Fini seeks to take advantage of cores that use passive Water-types like Toxapex and Slowbro as their Water resists. Both are viable options.

 

[TURBODERP]

A Calm Mind Tapu Fini like this:

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt
- Calm Mind

has been seeing a lot of usage on ladder and is an excellent wincondition. It can easily shut down defensive cores like Toxapex + Moltres + Tyranitar, Slowbro + Mandibuzz, etc. This set is very comparable to Substitute + Calm Mind Primarina which was quite popular during certain periods of the Isle of Armor metagame. Access to Taunt makes a really big difference, though, as it allows Tapu Fini to shut down Toxapex and Blissey, 2 generally good checks to Primarina (Though Toxapex got PP stalled at worst). Misty Surge is certainly useful too because Tapu Fini can't be crippled by Toxic from Pokemon like Heatran as it tries to switch into play.

Ofcourse this set does come with its weaknesses; it struggles to get going against offensive teams and is pretty easily handled by bulky Grass-types like Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth, though only Ferrothorn is very relevant in the current metagame.

With that said, I honestly don't find this set to be very comparable to Suicune, as they have different objectives in mind. Suicune looks to PP stall Pokemon like Toxapex, which synergizes very nicely with Pokemon like Calm Mind Clefable, whereas Tapu Fini seeks to take advantage of cores that use passive Water-types like Toxapex and Slowbro as their Water resists. Both are viable options.

Max Speed Timid is also viable too IMO since it catches stuff like Adamant Urshifu and ties with Kyurem. The loss in bulk is very noticeable but catching out certain threats and chunking them hard (or killing them like with Dark Urshifu) is very nice on the right teams.

 

[inc0gnito]

Have people been running VinCune to moderate or high success? Been spectating battles for the entirety of this meta and have seen an uptick in Cune. The set is telegraphed but it always comes in free. Really the only problems I’ve seen with people using it is they get greedy with the CM boosts and don’t rely as much as they should on pressure. It rips clef/pex a new one unless you do something stupid like switch in on a knock off. Getting in/anything free as a problem raised by anyone is a non-point in this meta with the central theme of broken pivoting abilities in the past 6 pages of this thread. I guess it stacks the slim suite of water weaknesses with the slow twins but what actually pressures VinCune behind a sub? Nothing with recovery wants to deal with it- maybe unaware clef.

I have ran a fairly decent VinCune team on the ladder and you really need something to pressure Toxapex as PP stalling it is a futile attempt. Picture this, if the opponent team has a Toxapex and Water Absorb user (say Volcanion), the opponent can just switch between Pex and said Water Absorb user without clicking any moves and not burn PP at all and the irony of it, Suicune is the one that gets PP stalled! That or you risk switching out and lose all the boosts in the process. So something as a reminder when building VinCune teams

 

[MidnightReaper]

Love it dude. Stonjourner probably has my favorite design of any mon from Galar, it was a shame it's been kind of relegated to the depths of ZU (it is an S rank there to be fair), so finding a niche for it in this meta is pretty impressive. Rock Polish seems like an honestly usable option on it because special priority is very rare (just Vacuum Wave and Lucario, and RU mon, is the only user of it). I will agree with you that in a real teambuilding scenario putting this set on a team is probably going to be extremely challenging because Stonjourner usually will struggle to find a lot of opportunities to get a Rock Polish off due to the fact that there are just so many special attackers that OHKO it - I mean even Zapdos uninvested can OHKO it. The main reason I would use this set would be if my team needed some sort of lure that can give bulkier Steel-types like Corvi (which, if running Adamant, has a big chance to OHKO it after Rocks), Ferro, and Magearna a hard time. That's actually kind of a real niche if you think about it, since Stonjourner has a huge surprise factor and mons like Heatran are obviously a lot more predictable and the aforementioned Pokemon are more likely to switch out on Heatran whereas with Stonjourner they're staying in to get KOed. Definitely a supremely niche mon, will probably have to see it in action to confirm that it has a niche, but I like where you're going with this.

Thank you, dude! I really appreciate that comment. Yeah, the whole appeal that I was trying to go for by recommending Stonjourner was the surprise factor with its very usable traits. When I was testing it on the ladder and discussing it in the main OverUsed chat, I had a lot of people ask me similar questions so I figured I'd use your post here to build off of my Stonjourner post from the bottom of page 46 (for reference - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...tats-in-post-696.3672210/page-46#post-8668198)

FAQ #1: Why not just use Rhyperior? Better attacking stats and access to Heat Crash, Rock Polish, Stealth Rock like Stonjourner gets and access to Solid Rock as an ability.

Answer: Simple, Rhyperior has base 40 speed while Stonjourner has base 70 speed. This may not seem important, but let me give some calculations to back up why the additional 30 base speed is crucial and allows Stonjourner much more breathing room than Rhyperior does.

Adamant Stonjourner with +2 Speed (252 Speed EVs) = 478
Jolly Rhyperior with +2 Speed (252 Speed EVs) = 392

Adamant Stonjourner Attack (252 Attack EVs) = 383
Jolly Rhypherior Attack (252 Attack EVs) = 379

The 30 base speed that Ston has over Rhy actually allows Stonjourner to be far faster than Rhyperior while running a neutral Speed nature, allowing it to run an Adamant nature that gives it additional power. In addition, having your speed at 478 instead of 379 after a Rock Polish boost allows Stonjourner to outpace key threats that Rhyperior can't, such as Pheramosa, Dragapult, Shift Gear Magearna, certain Scarf or +1 boosted Pokemon etc. The heightened speed tier is absolutely CRUCIAL here.

Can Rhyperior take a hit better than Stonjourner? Absolutely, especially with Solid Rock. However, Stonjourner lacks the quad weakness to Water and Grass that Rhyperior has, so Stonjourner's 100 / 135 Physical Bulk is still commendable.

FAQ #2: Isn't Stonjourner's non-existent Special Bulk going to be an issue?

Answer: This is why I stated on my original Stonjourner post that it's not a very splashable Pokemon and requires a team to be built around it. The key is to utilize its specific traits while relying on its fantastic +2 speed tier in comparison with its competition in Rhyperior so that unlike Rhyperior it doesn't have to take things like a High-Jump-Kick from Pheromosa. It is a lure/surprise cleaner for this reason, and where I've found its specific niche comes into play.

After additional testing today, I'm actually pretty confident in Stonjourner's niche in OU. It's not gonna be taking the metagame by surprise any time soon, but it's definitely usable. There's also no more satisfying feeling than outspeeding and OHKO'ing both a +2 Shift Gear Magearna and a max invested Ferrothorn with Stonjourner's Heat Crash in the same match.

 

[Spyro]

I get the niche over Rypherior but why not just use Tyranitar for such a set though? It has a higher attack stat and even with Adamant you still out outspeed max speed Pheromosa by 1 point. I get that it has Heat Crash and can take physical hits better but Tyranitar has a really good special defense that easily lets it set up a Rock Polish in way more scenarios than Stonjourner and still has a good enough defense stat. Tyranitar can also be paired with Dracozolt and Excadrill. I don't see any good reason to use this over Ttar other than Heat Crash having a higher output damage than Fire Punch. Not to mention it actually has a decent Special Attack stat so if it's missing some 2HKO with Fire Punch just run Life Orb boosted Fire Blast for those physically invested steel types. I actually thought Stonjourner's ability gave it a power boost or something but I looked it up and it doesn't which is dissapointing.

 

[MidnightReaper]

I get the niche over Rypherior but why not just use Tyranitar for such a set though? It has a higher attack stat and even with Adamant you still out outspeed max speed Pheromosa by 1 point. I get that it has Heat Crash and can take physical hits better but Tyranitar has a really good special defense that easily lets it set up a Rock Polish in way more scenarios than Stonjourner and still has a good enough defense stat. Tyranitar can also be paired with Dracozolt and Excadrill. I don't see any good reason to use this over Ttar other than Heat Crash having a higher output damage than Fire Punch. Not to mention it actually has a decent Special Attack stat so if it's missing some 2HKO with Fire Punch just run Life Orb boosted Fire Blast for those physically invested steel types. I actually thought Stonjourner's ability gave it a power boost or something but I looked it up and it doesn't which is dissapointing.

A great question! Tyranitar may have 9 higher points in attack, but Tyranitar has the same HP and 25 less Defense than Stonjourner in addition to having a quadruple Fighting-type weakness. The most glaring issue though is Tyranitar's inability to outspeed +2 Shift Gear Magearna thanks to it only having 61 base speed compared to Magearna's 65 base speed. It's about handling specific threats that other options aren't fast enough to handle. Not to mention that Heat Crash Stonjourner gets certain KOs that Fire Punch Tyranitar cannot get without having to split EV investment to run a Special Attack.

252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 364-432 (103.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With the abundance of Rocky Helmet and Physical Walls, being able to nuke something in one hit over two hits with a LO Rock Polish Cleaner cannot be underestimated.

Tyranitar and Rhyperior have great uses, but those uses don't overlap with Stonjourner's specific niche based on the testing that I've done.

 

[Kyo]

Big Lizard :p

OU forgot about this mon and it really shows. I’ve been using Toxtricity recently to great success and I think there are a number of factors that contribute to why it’s so good in the current meta. With Koko losing hp ice and falling off heavily in usage, many teams have started using any old ground type like Nidoking, Lando-T, or Garchomp as their obligatory Regieleki answer (also some bulky grass types). Toxtricity is here to punish these teams for their complacency.

Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave

This set is an absolutely devastating wallbreaker vs balance and fat teams. OU switch ins to this mon are pretty much limited to Ferrothorn, TTar, and Blissey. Excadrill and Dragapult can both functions as a soft check if they switch into the right move but a bad prediction chunks them by 50% and both of these mons being less relevant in post DLC meta than they were in pre DLC is a definite buff for the lizard.

Now you might be asking, why use Toxtricity over other balance breakers like Nidoking or Specs Kyurem? Toxtricity’s niche lies in STAB volt switch which can create a really dangerous volt turn core with mons like Urshifu, Pheromosa, and Cinderace. With good prediction, you can muscle through “checks” like Blissey and Ferrothorn by chipping them on the switch in and immediately forcing them out in fear of a fighting type attack from the aforementioned teammates. Similar to Nidoking, Toxtricity is also immune to toxic and thunder wave plus it can pick up tspikes on entry (very good in current meta) which completely invalidates Toxapex if you pair the lizard with a teleport slowbro/king. In terms of raw power and speed tier it may be outclassed by Specs Kyurem but these attributes, a fairy resist for switching hard into cm clef, and no stealth rocks weakness can’t be understated.

Bonus: Shift gear Toxtricity is definitely an inferior set but it’s still very usable on HO teams and, by virtue of life orb drain punch or fire punch, can actually beat every single mon besides dragapult that is supposed to check the specs set. +1 LO drain can KO drill and TTar while Blissey turns into setup fodder for more shift gears and heals Toxtricity back up to full. Fire punch can be used instead to snipe ferrothorn but is generally worse than drain punch.

tldr; DON’T SLEEP ON THIS MON

 

[Spyro]

Heat Crash Stonjourner gets certain KOs that Fire Punch Tyranitar cannot get without having to split EV investment to run a Special Attack.

252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 364-432 (103.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some Ferrothorn run specially defensive to better take on the hugely threatening Spectrier so Fire Punch is an OHKO on those. Speaking of Spectrier you also don't get revenged by Scarf variants if you're using Tyranitar. If Ferrothorn is running physically defensive you don't have to worry about Rocky Helmet and barbs and you don't need SpA EV investment:

0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

I get that Stonjourner does better in some situations but I feel like Tyranitar's advantages far outweigh Stonjourners for this specific set. I'm open to Stonjourner though and will be trying it out in OU later to better compare the 2.

 

[Talpr0ne]

A great question! Tyranitar may have 9 higher points in attack, but Tyranitar has the same HP and 25 less Defense than Stonjourner in addition to having a quadruple Fighting-type weakness. The most glaring issue though is Tyranitar's inability to outspeed +2 Shift Gear Magearna thanks to it only having 61 base speed compared to Magearna's 65 base speed. It's about handling specific threats that other options aren't fast enough to handle. Not to mention that Heat Crash Stonjourner gets certain KOs that Fire Punch Tyranitar cannot get without having to split EV investment to run a Special Attack.

252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Stonjourner Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 364-432 (103.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With the abundance of Rocky Helmet and Physical Walls, being able to nuke something in one hit over two hits with a LO Rock Polish Cleaner cannot be underestimated.

Tyranitar and Rhyperior have great uses, but those uses don't overlap with Stonjourner's specific niche based on the testing that I've done.

On the topic of niche Rock type sweepers, what about Barbaracle? It has Shell Smash instead of Rock Polish, a potent STAB Liquidation, a Tough Claws boosted Low Kick or Cross Chop for Ferrothorn, and the Water type and less lopsized bulk might help it set up in more matchups (although I wouldn't use Barbaracle without screens anyway). No Fire coverage, but

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 377-445 (107.1 - 126.4%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 363-426 (84.2 - 98.8%)

 

[glava222]

On the topic of niche Rock type sweepers, what about Barbaracle? It has Shell Smash instead of Rock Polish, a potent STAB Liquidation, a Tough Claws boosted Low Kick or Cross Chop for Ferrothorn, and the Water type and less lopsized bulk might help it set up in more matchups (although I wouldn't use Barbaracle without screens anyway). No Fire coverage, but

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 377-445 (107.1 - 126.4%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 363-426 (84.2 - 98.8%)

Actually sounds pretty cool, after a shell smash you outspeed the unboosted metagame and can hit very hard.

You just gotta watch out for residual damage from rocky helmet and LO, since barbaracle depends on contact moves, and chip combined with drop in defenses can very quickly get you in priority range. Also it seems like barbaracle would really like a partner that can proactively take rillaboom out, since rillaboom will be the bane of barbaracle's existence with 4x effective grass slide.

 

[MidnightReaper]

Some Ferrothorn run specially defensive to better take on the hugely threatening Spectrier so Fire Punch is an OHKO on those. Speaking of Spectrier you also don't get revenged by Scarf variants if you're using Tyranitar. If Ferrothorn is running physically defensive you don't have to worry about Rocky Helmet and barbs and you don't need SpA EV investment:

0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

I get that Stonjourner does better in some situations but I feel like Tyranitar's advantages far outweigh Stonjourners for this specific set. I'm open to Stonjourner though and will be trying it out in OU later to better compare the 2.

That is a good point, I suppose at that point it just comes down to preference. Stonjourner I've actually been running on one of my Sun teams so Tyranitar would be counterproductive in my specific case. Fire Blast also has that shaky accuracy that I just can't stand, but I do see the point about not having to worry about the Rocky Helmet damage with that.

On the topic of niche Rock type sweepers, what about Barbaracle? It has Shell Smash instead of Rock Polish, a potent STAB Liquidation, a Tough Claws boosted Low Kick or Cross Chop for Ferrothorn, and the Water type and less lopsized bulk might help it set up in more matchups (although I wouldn't use Barbaracle without screens anyway). No Fire coverage, but

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 377-445 (107.1 - 126.4%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 363-426 (84.2 - 98.8%)

Barbaracle really does have a phenomenal Physical movepool. In addition to those choices he also gets Earthquake, Night Slash, Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, and a multitude of other interesting niche options. Gonna be experimenting with him in the near future.

However, there's a Pokemon that I've been desperately trying to make work in OU, and I feel like I'm SO close to having a slight niche for him. My next post probably tomorrow (after a lot more testing) will be about one of Gen 3's forgotten treasures.

 

[bb skarm]

Starting to think I’ve tiptoed into “ban ” territory. It definitely has some consistent checks - Clefable and Toxapex completely drive it into the ground - but the pressure it forces on to another team, especially an offensive one, is pretty significant and is often the difference in a game because Pheromosa keeps the momentum on one side of the game at all times. U-turn on this mon hits pretty hard even on resists and being able to click that move repeatedly forces the opponent to always play one step behind the user. This can be ridiculously tough to make up for in a game because it really only takes one subpar matchup for Pheromosa to completely shift the tide of the game in the users corner. A really big reason I think this mon might be too much for the tier is its awesome movepool makes it so so much easier to create opportunities to pivot out and generate more momentum. As a late game wincon if priority is out of the equation its got huge capability because of Beast Boost (a +1 Pheromosa CC is one of the strongest attacks in the tier) and having the flexibility to be good both early, mid, and late game depending on how it is used can be too much in a game. It’s also notable that Pheromosa is one of the few physical attackers that beats Slowbro and actually disrupts the future sight + breaker combo; this obviously is far from putting it over the top by itself but still is really good at showcasing its offensive power.

I’m still really on the fence about this mainly because the metagame is still evolving but now I’m starting to understand what sort of issues some people are having with Pheromosa and why they want it out of the tier. Being able to generate so much momentum with a strong STAB U-turn really shifts the game in the user so much and unless you’re running Clefable or Pex it’s going to be doing a lot of damage to your team one way or another. Side note, it’s interesting to see the Quiver Dance set gain more popularity. Have yet to use it but seems like an excellent wincon with Beast Boost

 

[658Greninja]

Thank you, dude! I really appreciate that comment. Yeah, the whole appeal that I was trying to go for by recommending Stonjourner was the surprise factor with its very usable traits. When I was testing it on the ladder and discussing it in the main OverUsed chat, I had a lot of people ask me similar questions so I figured I'd use your post here to build off of my Stonjourner post from the bottom of page 46 (for reference - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...tats-in-post-696.3672210/page-46#post-8668198)

FAQ #1: Why not just use Rhyperior? Better attacking stats and access to Heat Crash, Rock Polish, Stealth Rock like Stonjourner gets and access to Solid Rock as an ability.

Answer: Simple, Rhyperior has base 40 speed while Stonjourner has base 70 speed. This may not seem important, but let me give some calculations to back up why the additional 30 base speed is crucial and allows Stonjourner much more breathing room than Rhyperior does.

Adamant Stonjourner with +2 Speed (252 Speed EVs) = 478
Jolly Rhyperior with +2 Speed (252 Speed EVs) = 392

Adamant Stonjourner Attack (252 Attack EVs) = 383
Jolly Rhypherior Attack (252 Attack EVs) = 379

The 30 base speed that Ston has over Rhy actually allows Stonjourner to be far faster than Rhyperior while running a neutral Speed nature, allowing it to run an Adamant nature that gives it additional power. In addition, having your speed at 478 instead of 379 after a Rock Polish boost allows Stonjourner to outpace key threats that Rhyperior can't, such as Pheramosa, Dragapult, Shift Gear Magearna, certain Scarf or +1 boosted Pokemon etc. The heightened speed tier is absolutely CRUCIAL here.

Can Rhyperior take a hit better than Stonjourner? Absolutely, especially with Solid Rock. However, Stonjourner lacks the quad weakness to Water and Grass that Rhyperior has, so Stonjourner's 100 / 135 Physical Bulk is still commendable.

FAQ #2: Isn't Stonjourner's non-existent Special Bulk going to be an issue?

Answer: This is why I stated on my original Stonjourner post that it's not a very splashable Pokemon and requires a team to be built around it. The key is to utilize its specific traits while relying on its fantastic +2 speed tier in comparison with its competition in Rhyperior so that unlike Rhyperior it doesn't have to take things like a High-Jump-Kick from Pheromosa. It is a lure/surprise cleaner for this reason, and where I've found its specific niche comes into play.

After additional testing today, I'm actually pretty confident in Stonjourner's niche in OU. It's not gonna be taking the metagame by surprise any time soon, but it's definitely usable. There's also no more satisfying feeling than outspeeding and OHKO'ing both a +2 Shift Gear Magearna and a max invested Ferrothorn with Stonjourner's Heat Crash in the same match.

I wasn’t sure to really believe it until saw the calcs and was pleasantly surprised by how strong it is, but then I asked to myself. Ok it hits surprisingly hard and outspeeds most of the meta but how is it going to setup in the first place and how does it differentiate between other meta relevant sweepers? Stonjourner doesn’t seem to have the ability to really threaten out anything meta relevant other than Mandibuzz and slow steels like Corvi in order to set up a Rock Polish. Even things that Journer can threaten to OHKO, can outspeed and OHKO Jouner like Scorching Sand Moltres or Zapdos. In fact, most of the defensive metagame can threaten to OHKO it or cripple it (Ex: Blissey or TWave Ttar). It doesn’t help that it can’t really break past the common ClefPex or physical walls like Buzzwole or Slowbro even with minimal chip. When compared to other setup sweepers, Stonejourner doesn’t have the attributes or utility to really get a sweep off. Like for example.

-SG Mag has a solid defensive typing and bulk while having uncontested coverage that can mow past anything that isn’t Aegislash, Blissey, or Gastrodon.

-SD Kart has decent physical bulk, and scares out Lando, Blissey, and other defensive staples while being highly threatening with or without a Swords Dance.

-Vinecune is bulky all-round and can potentially pp stall fat teams while putting up fat substitutes that Chansey can’t break.

-CM Reuniclus doesn’t fear being statused or crippled by hazards and has enough bulk and power to shrug off hits and threaten back.

-SD Rilla has priority with 91 base power in terrain while being able to OHKO Buzzwole, and Tang after chip with Acrobatics.

-CM Clef can threaten to sweep bulky teams while providing nice defensive utility.

-Spectrier can bypass its answers like Ttar or Mandi with Wisp + Hex, and generally being incredibly fast.

-SD Chomp has decent defensive utility and could potentially threaten to sweep faster teams with after a Scale Shot.

I don’t really quite get how Stonjourner could be viable or even niche in OU. Considering how much is holding it back, bad Special Bulk, meh speed tier without Rock Polish, and outclassed by other rockers or setup sweepers

 

[Talpr0ne]

That is a good point, I suppose at that point it just comes down to preference. Stonjourner I've actually been running on one of my Sun teams so Tyranitar would be counterproductive in my specific case. Fire Blast also has that shaky accuracy that I just can't stand, but I do see the point about not having to worry about the Rocky Helmet damage with that.


Barbaracle really does have a phenomenal Physical movepool. In addition to those choices he also gets Earthquake, Night Slash, Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, and a multitude of other interesting niche options. Gonna be experimenting with him in the near future.

However, there's a Pokemon that I've been desperately trying to make work in OU, and I feel like I'm SO close to having a slight niche for him. My next post probably tomorrow (after a lot more testing) will be about one of Gen 3's forgotten treasures.

While looking up other Rock types I found out Tyrantrum which unfortunately I think completely overshadows Stonjourner in a more direct manner than Barbaracle, since they have a similar stat spread, but Tyrantrum is faster by one point, has a Dragon type and is significantly stronger because of Head Smash. It can also use Dragon Dance, but would be open to many scarfers as well as Dragapult. One key advantage is that being a Dragon type it is neutral to Grassy Glide and can avoid being OHKOd. The one thing that Stonjourner can boast over Tyrantrum, Heat Crash, isn't too relevant because Head Smash + Close Combat still does the job.

 

[Zneon]

So bb skarm brought up Pheromosa in a great post, but in all honestly unlike a lot of people I don't find Pheromosa to be broken, though I do understand where the ban arguments for this Pokemon are coming from, I really don't find it to be broken right now and I'm going to go over why.

Pheromosa is an outstanding Pokemon, a top 3 Pokemon in fact at worst in my opinion, it's just that good however I feel its more of just extremely good than actually broken. The reason being is that its checks / counters are all very self sufficient Pokemon and some can just flat out deter Pheromosa from clicking U-turn without some form of punishment. Moltres / Zapdos are the biggest examples, especially Moltres, because that Pokemon doesn't really take a lot from Pheromosa's attacks, including Ice Beam, that's a pretty big drawback of a Pokemon who is going to be clicking U-turn most of the game, and while it is very good at it by forcing switches and wearing down stuff, the checks to Pheromosa, again are all very self sufficient. Clefable, Toxapex, and Moltres are good examples of this since they just recover off the damage while also being very splashable on many teams right now and considering that Pheromosa's main goal outside of spamming U-turn is to wear things down until its ready to clean up late game, that's not a good thing in Pheromosa's favour, which is a lesser case for QD, which is my opinion the broken set out of the 3 but I'll get into that next.

Now onto QD, this is the set that I feel can potentially push Pheromosa over the edge because of how consistently the Pokemon is able to sweep teams after 1 QD, which isn't hard since it forces pretty easily, and considering that Pheromosa hits really hard and is still ludicrously fast even with Modest, you can use it as a wallbreaker as well. The issue with this is that it makes checks to the other sets not really checks anymore, Moltres and Toxapex cannot handle Shock Wave at +1, and Fini needs to be at high health to live one at +1, Clefable needs to be as healthy as possible or it can just fold to Ice Beam, making it not even a good switch in. I don't think its other 2 sets are broken at all and in the current metagame, even unhealthy, however with QD added to the mix it I feel it definitely has a chance to be unhealthy.

Overall, I feel Pheromosa right now is pretty manageable. I do agree that offensive counterplay to it outside of priority and scarfers are basically nonexistent, I feel teams will have at least 1 and its defensive countermeasures overall are just good enough, self sufficient enough and splashable and common enough even without Pheromosa's presence for me to feel that it can be played around pretty consistently.

This is going to spark some disagreements but I would love to now your responses and opinions on Pheromosa though. Hope you enjoyed this post!

 

[glava222]

Overall, I feel Pheromosa right now is pretty manageable. I do agree that offensive counterplay to it outside of priority and scarfers are basically nonexistent, I feel teams will have at least 1 and its defensive countermeasures overall are just good enough, self sufficient enough and splashable and common enough even without Pheromosa's presence for me to feel that it can be played around pretty consistently.

I agree with everything you said, it's just that this paragraph is a bit weird to me. It basically seems to say, if we don't do the things that counter pheromosa, we can't counter pheromosa, which is true I guess, but says more about the person not doing it than about pheromosa.

Don't want to sound too aggressive, I think the rest of your post is really really on point :), and you described the defensive side of things well, the only thing I would add is that offensive teams that use TR or sticky web also have great speed control on phero

 

[GaryGaryGary]

So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)


As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)

 

[bb skarm]

So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)


As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)

Use a hide tag to put the sets in, by using

[ hide=sets][/hide] do it without the spaces and put the sets in between both the tags

 

[GaryGaryGary]

Use a hide tag to put the sets in, by using

[ hide=sets][/hide] do it without the spaces and put the sets in between both the tags

test

So like this?

 

[bb skarm]

test

So like this?

Yea looks good to me, in the future you should ask this sort of question in the simple question simple answer thread

 

[GaryGaryGary]

Yea looks good to me, in the future you should ask this sort of question in the simple question simple answer thread

Thank you. Sorry for the interruption. Now let us proceed with the OU metagame discussion again.

 

[glava222]

So I have been playing around with Glastrier and Trick Room for a little bit, and I was wondering if this set could be workable in OU.

Frosty the Glastrier
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability:Chilling Neigh
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Megahorn/Body Slam

So this set is pretty powerful in NatDex( I know this is the OU forum and I'm sorry for speaking out of line, but I need to tell you how powerful this thing is.) Icicle Crash is it's STAB which, with Life Orb, nukes a lot of Flying and Ground types on the dot. High Horsepower hits Toxapex for super-effective and 2HKOs after Stealth Rock. Close Combat KOs Tyranitar (obviously) and 2HKOs Ferrothorn. Megahorn hits Slowbro and Slowking and Body Slam for the rest. Here are le calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 328-385 (77.5 - 91%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 743-879 (183.9 -217.5)

252+ Atk Life Orb Glastrier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%)


As you can see, THATSA ALOTTA DAMAGE!!
(Also, how do you put a lot of data in one button. Like "Sets" and when you press the Sets you can see everything. I would like to know...)

I've seen glastrier used on trick room teams in OU, but from what I remember I mostly saw it with boots, guess probably because it's got quite the stealth rock weakness. Life orb seems like a take that gives it more punching power, which seems good as trick room sweepers generally want a lot of straight up firepower, but this does leave it a bit open to chipping, which may or may not matter given it's great bulk and speed under trick room. Since all those calcs you showed are super effective moves, might I suggest something like an expert belt as something of a middle ground item between boots and LO, as it will allow you to hit almost as hard as LO while not chipping yourself. Granted, this is a bit prediction reliant, but glastrier has nice enough coverage that it might be useful

Oh yh also you can still put that set in spoilers if you want, you just have to press the edit button below your post

 

[GaryGaryGary]

I've seen glastrier used on trick room teams in OU, but from what I remember I mostly saw it with boots, guess probably because it's got quite the stealth rock weakness. Life orb seems like a take that gives it more punching power, which seems good as trick room sweepers generally want a lot of straight up firepower, but this does leave it a bit open to chipping, which may or may not matter given it's great bulk and speed under trick room. Since all those calcs you showed are super effective moves, might I suggest something like an expert belt as something of a middle ground item between boots and LO, as it will allow you to hit almost as hard as LO while not chipping yourself. Granted, this is a bit prediction reliant, but glastrier has nice enough coverage that it might be useful

Oh yh also you can still put that set in spoilers if you want, you just have to press the edit button below your post

I was thinking of Boots Glastrier a while back, but like you said, I wanted immediate power so once it got a chilling neigh boost it would hit incredibly hard. So Expert Belt is a pretty good alternative..