Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Mimikyu Stardust]

I'm gonna drop my opinion on the metagame and the potential kyurem suspects.

(why does kyurem's "wings" on bw sprite look like 2 bergmites?)
i dont agree with banning/suspecting with kyurem,​

now before i go to actual reasoning i have to say, Personally i would love it to be banned as 4/5 of the team i like to use are 6-0d by it (granted they are rain with lando-t, nidoking+fini, spiritomb and mudsdale, and a team with raboot being the sole ice resist) so it being banned would actually benefit me, BUT if we are talking about the whole metagame, i dont think its busted.

FIRST OF ALL,
Ice typing, Kyurem hates rocks, and the main set it runs usually forgo Boots and go with Specs, Lefties on sub sets and even never melt ice (or scarf if you are evil), because of that hazard hurts it a lot. over the times of me playing games in high ladder, if the opponent has a specs kyurem, and its usually easy to counter lead with something like Lele, Urshifu, Glowking etc. and if they dont lead with kyurem, the kyurem will be hurt by hazards a lot, as at most it will come in 2-3 times in the game.

SECONDLY,
now granted those 2-3 times it will probably rack up kills but what makes it different than things like lele? We like to joke that kyurem has 0 switchins but in practice its very easy to switch into, some things that can switchin once and revenge kill it easily are Lele, Spdef Ferro, Shifu, weavile, and even kyurem itself. its so easy to revenge kill, as it desprately needs all 3 coverage to not get hard wall, and without specs the damage isnt that big and is managable.

THIRD OF ALL,
if the kyurem isnt specs and it is dragon dance or bulky sub roost, its easier to beat imo. dragon dance kyurem is slow and so easily walled, if its offensive, it can be outsped by common scarfers like kartana and lele and get ohkoed back, plus the physical movepool is so pathetic that the only moves it can viably run are Icicle Spear, Iron Head, Outrage and Stone Edge, and things like melm and just walls that forever, (ik theres a mixed dd set with life orb, EP and freeze dry that can threaten these, but i dont actually have much experience facing it so im going to leave it from this post and might edit it in later in the future) if its bulky with DD, it doesnt do enough damage and needs atleast 3 DD to be able to threaten something, granted it is pretty good at pp stalling heatran and pex but there are other things that can beat them both without being walled. bulky sub roost is also another good set with earth power and freeze dry that can take a lot of hits and roost it back up and drains pp from things like close combat urshifu, but this set is just hard countered by a lot like Lele, Spdef ferro and even melmetal! and the never melt ice set i agree, is pretty darn strong seeing it switch moves and able to kill things accordingly but, its still revenge killed by the same things specs do like Lele for example.

FINALLY,
My point is, is an excelent mon but that doesnt mean its OP, to bring up old gens, Magearna in SM is stupidly good and can do so much with so little and it is still balanced. Kyurem in this meta i feel like has the same effect, it is a very powerful threat and with quite a few sets to choose from the nuclear :specs: Specs, the anoyying sub roost or even the rare but still excelent DD, it is entirely balanced. with threats in the meta like Pult, Lele, Melm, Glowking, Volc, Shifu, Koko, tini and Weavile at the top of the meta game which naturally checks and kills kyurem, i dont think this beast is that broken, it is just powerful. the meta currently is very balanced and filled with Excelent mons (not broken) at the top. so i really think that kyurem should stay even tho at times it does feels anoyying to fight especially with the god awful freeze mechanic.

 

[Walletinspector62]

Not only can Kyurem run HDB, making it very difficult to chip, but you have left the bulk of my argument completely unaddressed. I agree with you that Kyurem has enough checks that it is not banworthy-- the problem is it FREEZES Volcarona, Clefable, Melmetal, Scizor, and more! This massive uncompetitive aspect of Kyurem, combined with being very good in general, is what makes it banworthy.

Most good sets don’t run boots, and I really don’t think kyurem should be banned because of a ten percent freeze chance. That’s like banning a mon cause there’s a chance it can crit through its checks.

all this talk about kyurem has got me wondering, what do y’all think about Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh), just as good if not a better offensive typing, a significantly better speed tier, and even more power! Everything that likes eating it’s attacks dont like having specs or scarf.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh), just as good if not a better offensive typing, a significantly better speed tier, and even more power! Everything that likes eating it’s attacks dont like having specs or scarf.

very good indeed, but i feel like with its okay-ish speed it tends to get outsped by a lot on its nuclear specs set like scarf lele, pult, kart, torn and many more that i didnt mention, and its scarf set is generally just kinda weak? i mean things like spdef lando, hippo, glowking just naturally checks it without any problem. and also rocks, blace's 2 good sets are choice (boots cm only works on webs) so it has the same problem as kyurem with hazard and its also like, super frail so it doesnt have any defensive profile. it is balanced and far from needing a suspect.

 

[Ehmcee]

all this talk about kyurem has got me wondering, what do y’all think about Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh),

There are plenty of good ones: Toxapex, Ttar, Gastrodon, Blissey/Chansey, Hydra (as you mentionned), Swampert. Obviously all of these can be tricked, but if you let blace multiple times in without taking hazard damage, thats on you as a player. The Specs set is fairly easy to revenge, while the scarf set is checked by even more defensive pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

all this talk about kyurem has got me wondering, what do y’all think about Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh), just as good if not a better offensive typing, a significantly better speed tier, and even more power! Everything that likes eating it’s attacks dont like having specs or scarf.

Forgot Tyranitar…

Blace and Kyurem are not comparable. For starters Blace is frail as hell. Kyurem is bulky as hell and can Pressure stall its defensive answers. The bulk matters a lot as neither one of them have elite speed tiers. It’s simply way easier to revenge kill Blace. Hell, Rilla does with resisted glide after just one round of SR.

Freeze Dry is also more potent because it removes Water type from the equation entirely and adds the 10% chance of completely cheesing would be answers. With bulk and recovery, Kyurem can actually last long enough to tilt those cheese odds into statistical favorability.

 

[BT89]

all this talk about kyurem has got me wondering, what do y’all think about Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh), just as good if not a better offensive typing, a significantly better speed tier, and even more power! Everything that likes eating it’s attacks dont like having specs or scarf.

hydrei slander >:(

i’m mainly responding to this part because in all honesty, i could give less of a shit about kyurem (THE ISSUE IS FREEZE!). the issue with blace is that it is so vulnerable to basically every hazard, but unlike kyurem, it isn’t very bulky to compensate. it’s speed tier is also pretty meh, missing out on shit that revenge kills it like weavile. i feel like this proposal is a bit out of wack, and they ain’t comparable.

all, which is the major reason Kyurem deserves a ban. If you have not done so yet, please take a look at the Freezing odds I posted. Banning Kyurem would make the tier more competitive, now that we can get rid of randomly losing to freezes.

ok i lied, i’m getting involved, but why not just implement a freeze clause then? genuinely, that makes kyurem not broken and it doesn’t really impact its viability. freeze leaving removes nothing from the tier besides some cheese strats. also what the blace guy said, you can’t always account for freeze happening in the switch ins. i think this argument is less about kyurem and more about how freeze elevates it to an unbalanced condition.

 

[Finchinator]

Freeze Clause would change very little here. One timely freeze is more than enough for something as threatening as Kyurem. We are looking at the Pokemon in this case, not any clauses or moves or anything else.

 

[Pinkacross]

hydrei slander >:(

i’m mainly responding to this part because in all honesty, i could give less of a shit about kyurem (THE ISSUE IS FREEZE!). the issue with blace is that it is so vulnerable to basically every hazard, but unlike kyurem, it isn’t very bulky to compensate. it’s speed tier is also pretty meh, missing out on shit that revenge kills it like weavile. i feel like this proposal is a bit out of wack, and they ain’t comparable.



ok i lied, i’m getting involved, but why not just implement a freeze clause then? genuinely, that makes kyurem not broken and it doesn’t really impact its viability. freeze leaving removes nothing from the tier besides some cheese strats. also what the blace guy said, you can’t always account for freeze happening in the switch ins. i think this argument is less about kyurem and more about how freeze elevates it to an unbalanced condition.

That is exactly what the argument is. But Kyurem is the only pokemon that can fire off freezing moves at the level of consistency it can. Freezing is generally not an issue, KYUREM freezing is the issue.

Most good sets don’t run boots, and I really don’t think kyurem should be banned because of a ten percent freeze chance. That’s like banning a mon cause there’s a chance it can crit through its checks.

all this talk about kyurem has got me wondering, what do y’all think about Blacephalon? Unlike kyurem, Blacephalon has literally ZERO checks (besides Hydreigon but bruh), just as good if not a better offensive typing, a significantly better speed tier, and even more power! Everything that likes eating it’s attacks dont like having specs or scarf.

"Most good sets don't run boots." A lot of good sets run boots, especially bulky Kyurem sets. Secondly, it is a ten percent freeze chance on a SINGLE TURN. The chance of a critical hit is 1/24 while the chance of a freeze is 1/10. Please read my original post where I included several important freezing odds data points. Lastly, Blacephalon is not even in the same ballpark as Kyurem, though I will not batter this point further as several other commenters have already argued this.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

That is exactly what the argument is. But Kyurem is the only pokemon that can fire off freezing moves at the level of consistency it can. Freezing is generally not an issue, KYUREM freezing is the issue.

just wondering, whats the difference between this and shadow ball spdef drops from Pult, Blace or even Aegi? ghost checks like pex, hippo, spdef lando can destroy those easily but after a spdef drop, the enemy team have to basically pick a sack or make extremely uncomfortable plays just like when a kyurem freezes

 

[Pinkacross]

just wondering, whats the difference between this and shadow ball spdef drops from Pult, Blace or even Aegi? ghost checks like pex, hippo, spdef lando can destroy those easily but after a spdef drop, the enemy team have to basically pick a sack or make extremely uncomfortable plays just like when a kyurem freezes

Simple-- a freeze is a death sentence, whereas a SpDef drop often just means a double is needed. In some cases, such as a Mandibuzz taking a Special Defense drop, or some other healthy special counters, it still checks Dragapult fine. A team that needs to sack to a single SpDef drop from a Dragapult is poorly constructed (or at least the builder knew they were taking that risk), whereas there is NO WAY to prep for Kyurem Freezes without running some bad heal beller.

 

[THKNKG]

Simple-- a freeze is a death sentence, whereas a SpDef drop often just means a double is needed. In some cases, such as a Mandibuzz taking a Special Defense drop, or some other healthy special counters, it still checks Dragapult fine. A team that needs to sack to a single SpDef drop from a Dragapult is poorly constructed (or at least the builder knew they were taking that risk), whereas there is NO WAY to prep for Kyurem Freezes without running some bad heal beller.

Another reason it’s different - you aren’t stuck potentially doing nothing for 11 turns in a match bc of a spdef drop (*dies inside*), but like was mentioned, one is enough to be damning and the guy eats hits from like everything (not making an indictment on ban or not, but it’s just he’s a fat dude who can completely disrupt your ability to actually play with freeze)

I once lost a game bc kyurem crit through my fini and I would’ve otherwise comfortably won, and I’ve lost a game because of being frozen 11 turns... they feel very different lol

 

[SweetPatata]

That is exactly what the argument is. But Kyurem is the only pokemon that can fire off freezing moves at the level of consistency it can. Freezing is generally not an issue, KYUREM freezing is the issue.

I just wanna mention that Kyurem, along with many other mons (i.e. pult, lele, etc.), has rng involved with switching into it. Freeze isn’t “the problem” with Kyurem, because then that argument could be used against pult with spdef drops or even against lele with crits. Furthermore, freeze isn’t exclusive to Kyurem. You guys are acting like freeze isn’t just as devastating when it’s coming from an Arctozolt lol.
Speaking of Arctozolt, hail teams (not excluding Ninetales-Alola Ho) destroy Kyurem. They destroy all sets Kyurem can run, in fact. With hail teams being super common now, along with the other counter-play to Kyurem others have previously mentioned, I really don’t see any reason for a suspect or ban.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Simple-- a freeze is a death sentence, whereas a SpDef drop often just means a double is needed. In some cases, such as a Mandibuzz taking a Special Defense drop, or some other healthy special counters, it still checks Dragapult fine. A team that needs to sack to a single SpDef drop from a Dragapult is poorly constructed (or at least the builder knew they were taking that risk), whereas there is NO WAY to prep for Kyurem Freezes without running some bad heal beller.

i wouldnt say "Theres no way" because if ur team only carry one hard counter like lets say scizor, its not that good of a team, because theres still offensive checks like lele, victini, weavile or defensive checks like glowking, spdef ferro, and corviknight. and a team surely has 2 of those mons i just mentioned and can play around a freeze, and a freeze can also be detrimental to the kyurem user cuz god knows how many time a kyurem stay in to grab the kill on the frozen mon only to get a turn 1 thaw and die (this last part isnt really that strong of an argument but i think pointing it out is fair)

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Mandibuzz taking a Special Defense drop, or some other healthy special counters, it still checks Dragapult fine

the one problem i have with this is that its mandibuzz, its THE THIRD BEST shadow ball switchin behind blissey and umbreon (if we count bliss and chansey into one) and as proven by the drop of mandibuzz to UU, not every team has that and mandibuzz, umbreon and blissey today have poor match up againts the meta and it looks to continue that way. so most teams have to settle with soft checks like pex, hippo, lando, clef and things like that. so a spdef drop would cause the game to suddenly become way harder just like a freeze. meaning you have to go to your other check to shadow ball and chipping it down risking the late game clean and generally make your team be dismantled, and shadow ball is a pretty spammable move as the darks of ou are the slow, lando and fighting weak ttar that isnt too splashable and the frail weavile that

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 93-110 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 140-165 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

doesnt exactly eat shadow balls


this is why freeze being a reason of kyurem being suspected because it spams ice move is a flaw as its a small chance that can happen, you litterally can put it on other things like thunderbolt para from koko potentially ruining scarf sweeps, or in this case shadow ball drops.

 

[RaikouLover]

this is why freeze being a reason of kyurem being suspected because it spams ice move is a flaw as its a small chance that can happen, you litterally can put it on other things like thunderbolt para from koko potentially ruining scarf sweeps, or in this case shadow ball drops.

No, this is strawmaning. Kyurem is suspect worthy because of a few factors of which coverage, bulk, and freeze are noteworthy. Thunderbolt para is not a death sentence nor is it comparable to freezing mechanics. Kyurem has the longevity to literally sit back and click Ice Beam vs. it’s defensive checks. 10% is low in a vaccuum but in longer matches involving PP it is statistically more likely to freeze than not. Not to mention there are other elements that Kyurem brings to the table.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

No, this is strawmaning. Kyurem is suspect worthy because of a few factors of which coverage, bulk, and freeze are noteworthy. Thunderbolt para is not a death sentence nor is it comparable to freezing mechanics. Kyurem has the longevity to literally sit back and click Ice Beam vs. it’s defensive checks. 10% is low in a vaccuum but in longer matches involving PP it is statistically more likely to freeze than not. Not to mention there are other elements that Kyurem brings to the table.

i made a post on this thread earlier explaining why kyurem shouldnt be banned. it pointed out on how kyurem's whole kit is excellent in this metagame but isnt exactly too op to the point where it should be suspect tested like the mons that has been suspected before.
the posts above of me replying to pinkacross were about how putting freeze into account of banning kyurem is flawed. like the post says, ghosts spams shadow ball and shadow ball has a nasty spdef drop secondary effect which in a vacuum is rare but since the move is spammed a lot in a span of a game, it is extremely anoyying that your check to it gets a drop and you have to make uncomfortable plays to adjust to it like sacking a mon or chipping your other wall to be able to counter it. can you counter it? yes, and in my experience of playing, Kyurem freeze acts similar to this. when a kyurem spams ice beam it is inevitable you will get frozen, thats how it works, and it is anoyyin that you have to sort of sack your mon to be able to check the kyurem, but it isnt impossible to do so, even with the longevity of roost.

 

[Endrism]

People gotta understand what a single freeze can do to your entire game.
You get thunderbolt para'd it's like, "Well that sucks, gonna have to play a little better if I wanna win this"
Getting frozen once is just "Welp this thing is basically dead without it being dead. It's just setup fodder at this point and I should just use it as a sack for a safe switch-in later because I'm not unfreezing any time soon."

I also cant believe someone said Kyurem only has Specs and Scarf, if I'm correct Kyurem has:
Specs with Ice Beam, Freeze Dry, and a combination of EP, Focus Miss, or Draco.
Scarf being literally Specs but f a s t
SubRoost with Freeze-Dry and Earth Power along with Sub and Roost to PP stall really powerful 8PP moves and kill after.
Never-Melt Ice so your Ice Beams have the power, but not the restriction of only using Ice Beam while also being able to use Roost.
SubDD with Icicle Spear + Freeze Dry, Earth Power, and even roost to make it into a sort of SubRoost but with more powerful hits, but less coverage.
Hell I've seen people run Sun Kyurem with Weather Ball for a 100 Power Fire Move in the Sun on an Ice Type for an extra surprise. That can be deadly if used right.

Kyurem is so diverse and viable, able to take on anything from Blissey with Focus Blasts or +2 Icicle Spears, Bulky Waters with Freeze Drys, and can nuke a lot with Specs Draco. Scizor struggles against Focus Blast, plus the possibility of a freeze rising with each ice beam/freeze dry turns Kyurem into a nasty beast thats hard to contain.

 

[SweetPatata]

The fact that Kyurem never ohko’s checks proves how Kyurem struggles and can be dealt with. Even with freeze, as Mimikyu Stardust provided in an earlier post:

​

FIRST OF ALL,
Ice typing, Kyurem hates rocks, and the main set it runs usually forgo Boots and go with Specs, Lefties on sub sets and even never melt ice (or scarf if you are evil), because of that hazard hurts it a lot. over the times of me playing games in high ladder, if the opponent has a specs kyurem, and its usually easy to counter lead with something like Lele, Urshifu, Glowking etc. and if they dont lead with kyurem, the kyurem will be hurt by hazards a lot, as at most it will come in 2-3 times in the game.

SECONDLY,
now granted those 2-3 times it will probably rack up kills but what makes it different than things like lele? We like to joke that kyurem has 0 switchins but in practice its very easy to switch into, some things that can switchin once and revenge kill it easily are Lele, Spdef Ferro, Shifu, weavile, and even kyurem itself. its so easy to revenge kill, as it desprately needs all 3 coverage to not get hard wall, and without specs the damage isnt that big and is managable.

When a mon is so prediction reliant, while still not ohkoing its checks with coverage, even in the case of freeze, secondary checks can be used to either revenge kill or force Kyurem out. It’s not as if, in the case that your main check gets frozen, you just completely lose to Kyurem. Also, for many teams, beating Kyurem is done by forcing Kyurem’s prediction reliance. These teams exploit Kyurem’s weakness by using mons such as Heatran or Slowking-Galar, along with possibly Corviknight, to pivot between soft checks when necessary. Those arguing for a Kyurem suspect are stating that Kyurem’s ability to freeze and take out a mon, or remove prediction through never-melt-ice sets etc., allows Kyurem to force kills in an unhealthy manor; however, their argument also ignores the negatives of Kyurem. The power reduction of non-specs sets DOES matter and the rocks chip or ability to outplay other Kyurem’s DOES matter. These aren’t non-factors; rather, they are exploitable.
Specifically with NMI sets, although this set can fit roost and removes prediction, it still takes rocks damage and loses valuable power that could be used to hit checks like Scissor or Blissey. Because you lack power to properly threaten common checks, you ultimately rely on freeze to beat these common checks, which is not very reliable. Some argue that the added longevity from roost and Kyurem’s bulk allows you to fire off Ice beams and Freeze-drys more consistently, yet this argument contradicts itself. How can one consistently use freeze moves if you are forced to roost at some point? As you are forced to roost off rocks damage or other chip, you are letting in heavy hitters like Tapu Lele or Blacephalon, who both threaten you out and deal massive damage. The removal of prediction from this set has, in turn, made the set more predictable. I feel like it is careless to just assume that a new set is overpowered and unable to be checked. We should instead consider it a new set that has shaken up the meta, a perspective congruent with past sets on rising mons such as Arctozolt or Weavile.

Edit: Also, Mimikyu Stardust said that it was easy to switch into Kyurem, but I do not necessarily agree with that statement. I just was quoting them in order to show the checks and counterplay they provided.

 

[AM]

You could suspect Kyurem off sets alone and the variances involved within them, the whole argument about freeze is a bit reachy, not cause it doesn't happen but because you don't actually need it to justify a suspect for Kyurem if that's the direction you wanted to go in. Covering the different sets while trying to take into account every other threat in the format would be enough reason. I think the split on the qualified survey is enough to at least look at it, in a metagame that's for the most part stable, and is the one that seemed to have gotten a larger percentage of support to look at it in comparison to anything else mentioned it seems.

 

[heavylobster43]

One thing I will say about Kyurem is that a lot of its checks overlap with other versatile and threatening mons like Dragapult and Lele. It's not all that hard to hold off just Kyurem, but Kyurem wears out its checks even if hazards can often wear it out too, and that can open up holes for other dangerous mons to clean up, and a lot of those mons are versatile and threatening in their own right. Generally Heatran also has a lot of special walls sweating as is and it's really hard for the average team to keep up without joining the offensive fray. I don't know if I'd say Kyurem is THE issue, but it is at least part of an issue with the meta.

 

[JTD783]

My perspective on a Kyurem suspect wasn’t given an option in the poll, so I’ll share it here.

I am not convinced that Kyurem is generally balanced but I am also uncertain that it’s a significant problem. It’s definitely one of the more oppressive mons in the tier from a teambuilding perspective and its ability to get around its checks is a problem. As such, I’m not going to argue a suspect test is the right course of action, but it deserves to be looked at and discussed (as we’re doing now in this thread).

I would sum up my ideal response as “Kyurem is somewhat unbalanced, I support further discussion about it, and I am not opposed to a suspect test”.

Kyurem is obviously kinda dumb but I don’t feel confident in saying it’s generally balanced or unbalanced. I’m curious if anyone else resonates with this; if so, there may be more people who support discussion about Kyurem than the poll suggests.

 

[glava222]

I would just like to add some caveats to the freeze argument:
1. several of kyurem's defensive checks don't really care about freeze that much with little or no deviation from regular sets. Glowking can quite feasably run scald, volc has safeguard sets, and blissey has natural cure(at which point this turns into a just double switch situation just like with dragapult, and that has been said to not be overbearing). offensive checks obviously don't leave it enough time to fish for freeze
2. if there is misty terrain up, it also makes freeze fishing much harder and longer to pull of. this doesnt necessarily mean you will use fini to ruin kyurem's day but it can complicate matters a lot
3. it doesn't work if the mon in question already has a status condition, so if you accidentally scald burn their clefable or something, that will also not work anymore. You could try to avoid it, but at that point you are gimping your team a bit to fish for a freeze,which is quite dubious

 

[THKNKG]

Just some scattered thoughts but I find it interesting that on a surface level, arguments for cloyster/kings rock and kyurem are sorta similar. It’s not that insert secondary effect here in a vacuum is so overwhelming as to be uncompetitive, it’s more that on mons that already blast through nearly everything, having an rng dependent way to muscle through reliable checks just doesn’t feel great. (I am aware freeze happens with any ice move user, but no other ice move user fries so much of the meta and has the bulk to eat such a wide range of hits, and I’m also aware the argument for a held item that specifically boosts a secondary effect is a different thing, it’s just a general comparison).

There’s also th fact that its bulk lets it sponge hits if it needs to, but being able to be brought in with u turn etc and just throw off hits is another factor. Kyurem benefits off of having good teammates to switch into/let it be brought in more than having a couple shared checks to kyurem benefits you. As I’ve said before though, I think Tran is that way too lol (but freeze dry doesn’t miss so there’s that too).

so back to king’s rock comparison, *if* kyurem is able to muscle past firm checks via hax consistently, it has to be a factor of the discussion. Is it consistent enough to warrant being a factor? Idk, I’m not trying to answer that, I just found some of the similarities in wording and stuff kinda interesting, since cloyster and kyurem both had discussion around them regarding the degree to which secondary effects impacted dealing with them

edit: and in terms of how freezing feels, every time you miss a meteor mash with metagross, you’d be frozen by a kyurem... if it were a drinking game, my liver would be charcoal

 

[Pinkacross]

I just wanna mention that Kyurem, along with many other mons (i.e. pult, lele, etc.), has rng involved with switching into it. Freeze isn’t “the problem” with Kyurem, because then that argument could be used against pult with spdef drops or even against lele with crits. Furthermore, freeze isn’t exclusive to Kyurem. You guys are acting like freeze isn’t just as devastating when it’s coming from an Arctozolt lol.
Speaking of Arctozolt, hail teams (not excluding Ninetales-Alola Ho) destroy Kyurem. They destroy all sets Kyurem can run, in fact. With hail teams being super common now, along with the other counter-play to Kyurem others have previously mentioned, I really don’t see any reason for a suspect or ban.

Saying that pokemon other than Kyurem have RNG is like saying that pokemon other than Urshifu-Single-Strike do damage as well as a justification for no-ban. Freezing is far more devistating than a special defense drop or a critical hit, not to mention that critical hits are far more rare, being 1/24. Freezing is not exclusive to Kyurem, but Kyurem is the best freezer by far. Arctozolt needs a lot of support to work on a team, needing a minimum of a hail setter. Arctozolt also has much less special attack than Kyurem, often making Blizzard or Freeze Dry a subpar option in many situations. I don't know how this data could be compiled, but the amount of times Arcotozlt gets an opportunity to freeze is far less than Kyurem. Comparing the two is completely absurd. Lastly, using the "it loses to hail teams so it's bad" argument is really not making sense to me. Not only is Kyurem very good against the current most popular hail (Ox Hail) but it also can tank a hit from Arctozolt and OHKO in return, making it generally decent AT LEAST against hail teams.

the one problem i have with this is that its mandibuzz, its THE THIRD BEST shadow ball switchin behind blissey and umbreon (if we count bliss and chansey into one) and as proven by the drop of mandibuzz to UU, not every team has that and mandibuzz, umbreon and blissey today have poor match up againts the meta and it looks to continue that way. so most teams have to settle with soft checks like pex, hippo, lando, clef and things like that. so a spdef drop would cause the game to suddenly become way harder just like a freeze. meaning you have to go to your other check to shadow ball and chipping it down risking the late game clean and generally make your team be dismantled, and shadow ball is a pretty spammable move as the darks of ou are the slow, lando and fighting weak ttar that isnt too splashable and the frail weavile that

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 93-110 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 140-165 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

doesnt exactly eat shadow balls


this is why freeze being a reason of kyurem being suspected because it spams ice move is a flaw as its a small chance that can happen, you litterally can put it on other things like thunderbolt para from koko potentially ruining scarf sweeps, or in this case shadow ball drops.

Let me speak frankly: Comparing being frozen to being SpDef dropped by a Shadow Ball or paralyzed by a Thunderbolt or hit by a Critical Hit is absolutely absurd, and this argument counterpoint should be thrown out immediately by all using it.

The impact of a freeze is far worse than a Special Defense drop. Absolutely no pokemon in the tier (other than ice types that cannot be frozen) can weather the impacts of a freeze without dying the majority of the time. NONE.

I won't go through every ludicrous comparison, but let's take a look at Shadow Ball from Dragapult:

- Dragapult is vastly more frail than Kyurem, and has to pick spots to click Shadow Ball often more carefully than Kyurem with Ice Beam / Freeze Dry.
- Specially Defensive Toxapex lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and is free to Toxic or Knock Off.
- Specially Defensive Clefable lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and still consistently walls with Wish + Protect until another drop.
- HDB Weavile lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and OHKOs in return
- Mandibuzz is not barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Tyranitar is barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Specially Defensive Heatran lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball
- Assault Vest Melmetal lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball easily, taking about 60% and OHKOing in return.
- Specially Defensive Hippowdon lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball.

Please tell me a single pokemon that's OK with being frozen, like these pokemon are OK with being Shadow Ball dropped.

Before anyone posts another "Haha well if we should ban kyurem then why dont we ban excadrill bc iron head can flinch" please make sure your post has the following points:

1. Explain why this move can be used as frequently as Kyurem uses Ice Beam or Freeze Dry.
2. Explain why this pokemon is good enough that it can be used in OU regardless of this additional effect, like Kyurem can be.
3. Explain why this secondary effect is as bad as freezing.

If these criteria are not met, please, reconsider your comparison.

 

[THKNKG]

Saying that pokemon other than Kyurem have RNG is like saying that pokemon other than Urshifu-Single-Strike do damage as well as a justification for no-ban. Freezing is far more devistating than a special defense drop or a critical hit, not to mention that critical hits are far more rare, being 1/24. Freezing is not exclusive to Kyurem, but Kyurem is the best freezer by far. Arctozolt needs a lot of support to work on a team, needing a minimum of a hail setter. Arctozolt also has much less special attack than Kyurem, often making Blizzard or Freeze Dry a subpar option in many situations. I don't know how this data could be compiled, but the amount of times Arcotozlt gets an opportunity to freeze is far less than Kyurem. Comparing the two is completely absurd. Lastly, using the "it loses to hail teams so it's bad" argument is really not making sense to me. Not only is Kyurem very good against the current most popular hail (Ox Hail) but it also can tank a hit from Arctozolt and OHKO in return, making it generally decent AT LEAST against hail teams.



Let me speak frankly: Comparing being frozen to being SpDef dropped by a Shadow Ball or paralyzed by a Thunderbolt or hit by a Critical Hit is absolutely absurd, and this argument counterpoint should be thrown out immediately by all using it.

The impact of a freeze is far worse than a Special Defense drop. Absolutely no pokemon in the tier (other than ice types that cannot be frozen) can weather the impacts of a freeze without dying the majority of the time. NONE.

I won't go through every ludicrous comparison, but let's take a look at Shadow Ball from Dragapult:

- Dragapult is vastly more frail than Kyurem, and has to pick spots to click Shadow Ball often more carefully than Kyurem with Ice Beam / Freeze Dry.
- Specially Defensive Toxapex lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and is free to Toxic or Knock Off.
- Specially Defensive Clefable lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and still consistently walls with Wish + Protect until another drop.
- HDB Weavile lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and OHKOs in return
- Mandibuzz is not barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Tyranitar is barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Specially Defensive Heatran lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball
- Assault Vest Melmetal lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball easily, taking about 60% and OHKOing in return.
- Specially Defensive Hippowdon lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball.

Please tell me a single pokemon that's OK with being frozen, like these pokemon are OK with being Shadow Ball dropped.

Before anyone posts another "Haha well if we should ban kyurem then why dont we ban excadrill bc iron head can flinch" please make sure your post has the following points:

1. Explain why this move can be used as frequently as Kyurem uses Ice Beam or Freeze Dry.
2. Explain why this pokemon is good enough that it can be used in OU regardless of this additional effect, like Kyurem can be.
3. Explain why this secondary effect is as bad as freezing.

If these criteria are not met, please, reconsider your comparison.

Another factor in comparing secondary effects is immunity. Shadow ball from pult makes the next shadow ball do more dmg to the thing you swapped in to specifically take the hit, and you can be immune to it.

tbolt paralyzes you if you aren’t an electric or ground type, and bulky grounds are everywhere and cannot be hit by tbolt, so the idea of a tbolt sweep is unlikely without a lot of prior legwork

freeze is an equal opportunity employer, in that only its own ice typing makes you immune. In terms of which is the worst for you, imagine the hypothetical where you’re playing randbats and a porygon z hits you and triggers a secondary effect. Which effect makes you the most upset? It’s not paralysis

and I know freeze is uncommon compared to other statuses, but it’s a factor in conversation because kyurem enables it to be significantly more common bc of how easily it can stay in and click an ice move

flinch ruins you that turn, para slows you down and gives a small chance to do nothing (greater chance than thawing), but the increased chance of such a debilitating status happening and essentially “flinching” you multiple turns is why it’s being brought up (I assume lol, I don’t want to put words in mouths)