Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Endrism]

I'm honestly surprised that Volcanion isn't ou yet since its usage stats is above the cutoff. I think it's gonna be ou soon enough but I don't think it's gonna be too special. The problem with it is rocks and Toxapex. It's just so easy to wall this thing unless one of its stabs is boosted by specs and weather. However, I think it would fit best on hazard stacking teams with rocks Garchomp and spikes Ferrothorn as those would put a lot of pressure on the non boots bulky waters. Things are also looking up for Volcanion as if one goes to the way of using regular Slowking or something, that means the guy would have to go out of the way to avoid some shadow ball spam from Dragapult. Imo, Weavile and Dragapult are probably the best offensive partners for the thing

Actually, with a lot of PhysDef being run nowadays on everything, HDB Volcanion is a clean 2HKO with EP on Pex, and obviously with those HDBs it avoids hazards. Volcanions biggest issue is offensive pressure as its meh speed tier allows a lot of things like any of the fast electrics to pick up a clean KO with T-Bolt/PFists. Slowking is the main and only defensive problem for Volcanion because as it was pointed out, Steam Eruption 2HKOs Blissey in Rain.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 340-402 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, nothing Volcanion does can really touch Slowking, as even with specs, rain, and burn chip Ultra Scald doesn't 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking in Rain: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

 

[Smashburn]

I think Volcanion will definitely continue to see increased usage in the coming weeks, enough to be considered OU. Others have already reasoned Volcanion's rise in usage, but the TL;DR is that while it has some downsides, its positive qualities often outshine them. It fits well on fat, offense, and balance teams and its niche in OU is unique to it.

Here is a set I found interesting from the Heat sub-forum, more information there. Sorry, it has HDB.

POWER WASHER

POWER WASHER (Volcanion) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Spin
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power ​

Basic idea is that it can trap defensive Water-types like Toxapex and Tapu Fini with Fire Spin, then remove them with its coverage moves. It has two other EV spreads (click me!), the second of which can afford to run Mystic Water (Specs bluff) and a Timid nature, being more offensive.

 

[Ctann]

Why has there been a massive uptick of stall and fat 1800+ ladder on OU? there are about 12 players that consistently spams fat stall above 1800 and even more player who used stall but not consistently which is a weird and rare occurance for SS OU (not to mention, at the time of writing the number 1 person with 2100 elo is a stall player too). Usually you only see up to 5 players who uses stall which are usually people who knows the ins and outs of the playstyle and are masters of it, but there has been a boom of players using it and the teams that they use also have been tried and tested in the past aswell so there doesnt seem to be a new stall meta-trend with only a few teams adding some spice to their builds like spdef mew or protect spam. i havent caught up to last 2 weeks of SPL, OST or watch every SmogTour Replay nor do i have the time to do so but has there been a big HO breakthrough that fat is becoming good again?

for almost a year now, i use the same team if i just wanna ladder, while getting ideas for new teams or just relax and not think too much, the team has a bad matchup againts stall but it never gave me an issue as stall is bad and so i rarely see them and could just click buttons and win most of the time, and accept the few bad matchup or try extra hard to beat them, but this new uptick in stall has given me a massive issue as i actually have to use a team that doesnt lose to stall due to how common it is.

i actually as a joke with some friends, build a team that ONLY beats stall few weeks ago and loses to everything else, but seeing this trend picked up, i decided to made the team somewhat viable (and not use moldbreaker Lucha + No Ghost Stab Scarf gengar) while keeping Necrozma + Togekiss and i went to 1953 with and got 5 stall games (which i lost one of them)


anyways, the question is, why did stall suddenly get popular?

here ive tried re-building the variations of stall teams i've seen around 1800 from the past month (especially last week or 2) from high ladder that i remembered and ones from replays i saved(sets may not be correct):


Buzzwole + NP Rotom heat stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Will-o-Mew stall (Sets Confirmed (except clef) and EVs Unconfirmed)

Amoonguss pex torn regen spam with quag (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Torn Zwole + Gastro Fat Balance (Sets (and maybe pokemon) and EVs Unconfirmed)

NP Torn Sand Stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Xatu + Shedinja pex stall (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Triple Removal Corv Dnite Avalugg Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month ago i remember

Triple Defog Corv Zapdos Dnite Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed. ronaldo o fenomeno edrala the goat)

Old School Mandibuzz Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed)

Buzzwole + Reun Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month or so ago i remember, and was 1700s

maybe with these rebuilds people can give me the answer to why stall suddenly got a meteoric rise, as i genuinely cant find out, as all the things that made stall bad in the first place is still around. My best guess is that SmogTour has started and people have started laddering with stall to test and use on SmogTour as Cheese and CTeams are the name of the game there. Though, quite a lot of the teams like the Rotom Heat Buzzwole, Buzzwole Reun, Triple Removal was used during last year's OLT.

also if there is a mistake in "Sets Confirmed" or "EVs Confirmed" Please PM me as i might fix it.

(please dont use the teams above, i really wanna keep using this one team that mono lose to stall since its fun on ladder)

EDIT: Well a speculation of mine that might be true is that nowadays, a lot of teams cant really beat stall, theyre designed to beat fat balance teams with mons like nidoking, volcanion and banded weavile which struggles againts some stall teams. Still not sure if its the real or the only reason, do still help me.

seeing the stall teams made me wonder:

is it possible to have a stall team in the current meta without a “pink” Pokémon?



so no Blissey, clefable, new or Chansey. These are all stall staples!

on the topic of stall breakers, the most consistent ones that also perform against regular teams seem to be the STAB knock off types (and kartana):

and even to an extent.

other stall breakers have less consistency in regular games.. tho these can work really well against offense or bulky teams with the right support due to the extreme power of their turn 1 moves and decent coverage:




——



on the topic of volcanism.. try running body press to break blissey. It does about 40% to standard blissey which is a 2hko after some minor HP loss

80 Def body press V. Blissey

80 Def Volcanion Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 262-310 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

investing a tiny bit in defense EVs can go along way, just set speed to 242, and use the leftover EVs into defense. You can survive the occasional earthquake or boosted STAB close combat/knock off with the minor investment.

Incase you didn’t think surviving EQ was really possible..

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Volcanion: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

it also does respectable damage to hydriegon, which is sometimes used as a dedicated volcanion switch in.

——




has anybody else been trialling bulk up buzzwole?

with the incredible amount of physical attackers, and the fact that a lot of teams stack 2-3 of them. Buzzwole can sometimes solo a team once the key Lele/zapdos/tornadus/clefable is taken out of commission.

I’ve been using 280 speed (for heatran) and heavy SpD investment (for koko dazzling gleam and various other special attacks).

- Bulk Up
- leech life
- Ice punch
- Earthquake

I actually like leech Life over drain punch, as it works well to delete all the bulky psychic regenerators. drain punch is good for ferro, corviknight, urshifu and Kartana, however you can carry backup checks for them, as they won’t slow your progress as much as the regenerators

earthquake is very important to delete all variants of heatran, whilst threatening koko, slowking-g and toxapex, making your matchup against the regenerators a clean sweep.

Once you’re in high ladder, good players memorise your sets, so consistent performance is important. forcing a koko to u turn or volt switch before it can properly revenge you is a very big deal.

Buzzwole’s problem will always be that it is too easy to switch into, and the bulky psychics just heal up and can’t be punished without Leech life.

you need to guarantee that you can make progress with this Buzzwole, so unless the opponent still has a healthy clefable or bulkarona, you’ll be fine!

 

[Myzozoa]

Why has there been a massive uptick of stall and fat 1800+ ladder on OU? there are about 12 players that consistently spams fat stall above 1800 and even more player who used stall but not consistently which is a weird and rare occurance for SS OU (not to mention, at the time of writing the number 1 person with 2100 elo is a stall player too). Usually you only see up to 5 players who uses stall which are usually people who knows the ins and outs of the playstyle and are masters of it, but there has been a boom of players using it and the teams that they use also have been tried and tested in the past aswell so there doesnt seem to be a new stall meta-trend with only a few teams adding some spice to their builds like spdef mew or protect spam. i havent caught up to last 2 weeks of SPL, OST or watch every SmogTour Replay nor do i have the time to do so but has there been a big HO breakthrough that fat is becoming good again?

for almost a year now, i use the same team if i just wanna ladder, while getting ideas for new teams or just relax and not think too much, the team has a bad matchup againts stall but it never gave me an issue as stall is bad and so i rarely see them and could just click buttons and win most of the time, and accept the few bad matchup or try extra hard to beat them, but this new uptick in stall has given me a massive issue as i actually have to use a team that doesnt lose to stall due to how common it is.

i actually as a joke with some friends, build a team that ONLY beats stall few weeks ago and loses to everything else, but seeing this trend picked up, i decided to made the team somewhat viable (and not use moldbreaker Lucha + No Ghost Stab Scarf gengar) while keeping Necrozma + Togekiss and i went to 1953 with and got 5 stall games (which i lost one of them)


anyways, the question is, why did stall suddenly get popular?

here ive tried re-building the variations of stall teams i've seen around 1800 from the past month (especially last week or 2) from high ladder that i remembered and ones from replays i saved(sets may not be correct):


Buzzwole + NP Rotom heat stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Will-o-Mew stall (Sets Confirmed (except clef) and EVs Unconfirmed)

Amoonguss pex torn regen spam with quag (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Torn Zwole + Gastro Fat Balance (Sets (and maybe pokemon) and EVs Unconfirmed)

NP Torn Sand Stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Xatu + Shedinja pex stall (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Triple Removal Corv Dnite Avalugg Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month ago i remember

Triple Defog Corv Zapdos Dnite Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed. ronaldo o fenomeno edrala the goat)

Old School Mandibuzz Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed)

Buzzwole + Reun Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month or so ago i remember, and was 1700s

maybe with these rebuilds people can give me the answer to why stall suddenly got a meteoric rise, as i genuinely cant find out, as all the things that made stall bad in the first place is still around. My best guess is that SmogTour has started and people have started laddering with stall to test and use on SmogTour as Cheese and CTeams are the name of the game there. Though, quite a lot of the teams like the Rotom Heat Buzzwole, Buzzwole Reun, Triple Removal was used during last year's OLT.

also if there is a mistake in "Sets Confirmed" or "EVs Confirmed" Please PM me as i might fix it.

(please dont use the teams above, i really wanna keep using this one team that mono lose to stall since its fun on ladder)

EDIT: Well a speculation of mine that might be true is that nowadays, a lot of teams cant really beat stall, theyre designed to beat fat balance teams with mons like nidoking, volcanion and banded weavile which struggles againts some stall teams. Still not sure if its the real or the only reason, do still help me.

Imo, a lot of teams look like they don't break these stall teams if you're not a confident and experienced player of this tier.

I am understanding, perhaps wrongly, that when you say 'a lot of teams don't break stall' what you mean is they don't do well at breaking walls if there is a blissy. And it is true that ppl aren't preparing explicitly for blissy.

But actually the mainline teams in the tier (the paradigm blueprint is ox the fox's week 1 spl team) all break stall super hard. It's not perfect of course, but the stall player is at a big disadvantage and will have to make more correct predictions than the offensive player in order to win. Imo, you cannot play with these full stalls in tournaments, it just isn't realistic to be so passive.

There are certain pokemon, like tapu koko w volt switch, that basically mean these stall teams will never equalize against a good opponent. IMO.

 

[Ctann]

Thoughts on mixed attacking or even a physical tornadus?

I got the idea when thinking about how 70% accurate moves are too risky ..



tornadus-therian @ no item
- Acrobatics
- U turn
- Icy Wind / Heat wave
- Super Power / Knock Off

acrobatics is surprisingly useful at cleaning up late game, and early game it might be very useful at forcing damage on traditional therian checks.

U turn is important, as this is an offensive pressure bird. Tho it can be swapped out for more coverage

Icy wind is the only way you can chip zapdos safely. It also has a lot of utility against offensive teams, due to the matchup against Garchomp, landorus and Dragonite, whilst making offensive switch ins like Koko much easier to chip into ko range for your scarf/priority user.

heatwave allows you to reliably check Kartana, and improves the matchup against Ferrothorn.

Super power is for heatran.. very important if you’re running an offensive team, because eruption and magma storm are both horrible to try and switch into. The chip damage can be useful vs Melmetal, Ferrothorn and Kartana when you’re ready to sack tornadus. It also hits Tyranitar, bisharp, and a Weavile thinking it can set up a +2 in the end game.

knock off is overall useful, but I find this variant of tornadus needs to force out as many Pokémon as possible. Knock off mostly will force out the ghosts and victini.

EVs are mostly attack, as I’d assume you don’t need the SpA investment as much, personally i put 0 SpA and Timid. Speed above 350, and as much investment into HP as you can afford… so far 298 attack feels a little underwhelming most of the time, tho effective enough. Less attack, and more HP allows you to check threats like Kartana a little better, tho keep in mind it is hard to reliably check threats with no HDB!

 

[sunbhie]

as all the things that made stall bad in the first place is still around.

EDIT: Well a speculation of mine that might be true is that nowadays, a lot of teams cant really beat stall, theyre designed to beat fat balance teams with mons like nidoking, volcanion and banded weavile which struggles againts some stall teams. Still not sure if its the real or the only reason, do still help me.

Like what?

And I definitely agree not all teams can beat stall.

 

[Smashburn]

Thoughts on mixed attacking or even a physical tornadus?

I got the idea when thinking about how 70% accurate moves are too risky ..



tornadus-therian @ no item
- Acrobatics
- U turn
- Icy Wind / Heat wave
- Super Power / Knock Off

acrobatics is surprisingly useful at cleaning up late game, and early game it might be very useful at forcing damage on traditional therian checks.

U turn is important, as this is an offensive pressure bird. Tho it can be swapped out for more coverage

Icy wind is the only way you can chip zapdos safely. It also has a lot of utility against offensive teams, due to the matchup against Garchomp, landorus and Dragonite, whilst making offensive switch ins like Koko much easier to chip into ko range for your scarf/priority user.

heatwave allows you to reliably check Kartana, and improves the matchup against Ferrothorn.

Super power is for heatran.. very important if you’re running an offensive team, because eruption and magma storm are both horrible to try and switch into. The chip damage can be useful vs Melmetal, Ferrothorn and Kartana when you’re ready to sack tornadus. It also hits Tyranitar, bisharp, and a Weavile thinking it can set up a +2 in the end game.

knock off is overall useful, but I find this variant of tornadus needs to force out as many Pokémon as possible. Knock off mostly will force out the ghosts and victini.

EVs are mostly attack, as I’d assume you don’t need the SpA investment as much, personally i put 0 SpA and Timid. Speed above 350, and as much investment into HP as you can afford… so far 298 attack feels a little underwhelming most of the time, tho effective enough. Less attack, and more HP allows you to check threats like Kartana a little better, tho keep in mind it is hard to reliably check threats with no HDB!

There are sets that already do this role more reliably, and without sacrificing some of its utility. Assault Vest Tornadus gives you the added benefits of checking some threats it might not normally be able to, while retaining its tools. My personal favorite is Superpower AV Tornadus, which is meant to catch usual checks such as Heatran, Tyranitar, and Blissey off guard while hitting Bisharp and other Steel-type targets more reliably than Focus Blast. You can still cleanly 2HKO Ferrothorn with Heat Wave, and Knock Off has a favorable chance to OHKO Blacephalon without Stealth Rocks.

Neat idea though, I'm sure you've had fun with it.

AV Superpower

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 92 SpD / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave
- Superpower​

 

[Moyashi]

Let's get some fun discussion going :D

Saw some players from other tiers doing thisfoe their metagames (natdex tiers particularly) and thought this would be a fun talking point, especially with SPL wrapping up real soon. Post your top 10 mons in the metagame. I'll start

Personal top 10

1. This may be a hot take (teehee) but I genuinely think Heatran is the best Pokemon in the tier rn. It may not reach Lando's level of splashability, but it makes up for it by being a powerhouse and what feels like the best rocker in the tier. It's so good at it and threatening defoggers, whether it's classic bulky sets or the popular air balloon sets (my personal fav), it puts in consistent work every game and is a huge presence in the tier.
2. Hot take the second. Weavile and Heatran are the two best mons in the tier. Incredible offensive Mon that always makes progress and is able to both threaten and check a lot. SD sets are classic and great but Weavile has seen much experimentation and many tech developments have arose and kept it at the top despite attempts to knock it down. Banded Beat Up is seriously crazy
3. Hot take the third: final edition. LandoT is the most splashable mon in the tier, but I don't think it is the best. While it has a lot of set variety, many sets have some issues holding them back and keep them from being that common. Its well known Spdef sets are good, but it being so common leading to many players developing all kinds of ways to exploit it. Still an amazing mom and definitely top 3, but not the single best like it has been in the past.
4. Reliable as ever, a defensive and utility Mon that I don't think has ever been bad. Being arguably the only good spikes user in OU Mew is a bad spikes user fite me, Ferro is a great pick for a lot of teams and forms great cores with other staples of the metagame. Even with it sometimes having passivity issues, it still is great at its job and finds itself onto a lot of different teams as a result.
5. Even though I think Pult is beyond its hayday by now, it's hard to deny the effect it has on team building. A way to deal with ghost types is very important and Pult is arguably the biggest reason why. It's very good at pushing damage on Pokemon and not easy to revenge kill thanks to its speed. I do wonder if someone will discover some fancy new tech to push it back to the top again though.
6. Double Iron Bash is dumb. While an unorthodox steel type, I think Melm is probably the second best in the tier only behind Ferro. Bulk, power and its variety of set choices. Toxic+protect is its best I think but all are solid to great.
7. Terrific pivot that has longevity and can pressure ground type switch ins with toxic or dazzling gleam? Sign me up. Being a decent Gapdos switch in and having useful support brought through its terrain is also a great trait. It's hard to not like this Mon.
8. Wallbreaker, cleaner, sweeper, and even more unusual but surprisingly effective sets. Kartana is a great Pokemon and continues to see high success for good reason. Its power is to be respected and is pretty much guaranteed to be useful in any game.
9. This one was hard. Real hard. There are a number of amazing water types in OU, and I almost gave this to Slowbro, but I think a few things give Fini the edge over other waters. Its toolkit, but especially its typing. Checking a number of top metagame threats in one slot really big.
10. Torn why u down here lol. In all seriousness I do think TornadusT is amazing and a splashable, versatile Mon. Checking big threats, making progress with knock and regenerator giving it great longevity.

Honorable mentions

I wanted to include them but it is a top 10. :')

All amazing mons, and Slowbro almost made it into the list for me. While Volcanion isn't quite there but still a fantastic Mon and one I love. And offensive Zapdos is borked.

That's it from me. Maybe a bit wordy but I kinda had a lot to say about these mons. ^^;; and they are just my opinions and I would love to know what everyone else thinks.

 

[Red Raven]

Well, that really is a fun discussion. Here's mine

Top 10

This is the best mon in the tier for me. It literally griefs half the tier and even those that beat it can be griefed with whatever annoying tools this mon packs. Ferrothorn is also the only decent spikes setter in the tier since Skarmory isn't doing that great and we don't have ninja frog around. There really isn't much to say about this mon. It's incredibly obnoxious to break thru for anything that isn't a fire type



Number two spot for me is easily Garchomp. If it was simply Garchomp's offensive sets then I would rank it lower but the thing that really makes this very good is its spdef sets. Since, I put Ferrothorn at number one, what is the one thing that it hates? Fire, and what is one of the things Garchomp can eat all day? Fire. Whenever I build a team, I just default to Garchomp and Ferrothorn as my utility core because its just so damn good. Not having to worry about fire types really lets Ferrothorn annoy everything in sight. Aside from the key fire resistance, what really makes Garchomp so good for me is its access to flamethrower. I like spamming my physical attackers, all of which hate Heatran btw, so having a mon that can pressure Buzzwall, the bane of 90% of physical attackers, is very valuable. The tier is also filled with contact using pokemon like Kartana, Melmetal and Weavile so rough skin goes a long way in putting those mons in range of what I am using to check them. It's not as splashable for many others nor does it offer that much but for me, the things that offers is simply too valuable. And it's still a very dangerous sweeper so there's that



Weavile is easily the single best pure offensive mon in the tier. It has everything one could need. Speed along with a decent attack and priority. Nearly every team is gonna have checks to this but its not like Weavile is that helpless against them since it can always just go for a knock off. Priority ice shard also puts pressure on faster threats not named scarf Lele because if they dip low enough, they just get picked off. Band Weavile is also a hot thing rn but I personally never use it because it doesn't fit my preferred playstyle these days. Along with Garchomp and Ferrothorn, these three are usually the ones that I just put on every single team because they're that good and that reliable at getting the job not just done but done right. Sometimes, this pokemon is so annoying that it almost makes me wish Magearna was never banned. Almost



Still as annoying and reliable as ever. Heatran is not a mon that I use a lot these days but before, I sure spammed the hell out of this. Seeing as Heatran's flagship set is the magma trapper, I normally wouldn't rank it this high because of how bad magma miss' accuracy is but the other stuff that Heatran offers is just too good. Magma storm, if it hits, is essentially free stealth rock which can easily wear down check, has toxic to put them on a faster timer and has taunt. The long list of resistances its stats and ability provide are also highly valuable and it doesn't even stack weaknesses with the other steels because it completely incinerates Magnezone. I was gonna put this at rank five but the air balloon set is also too strong. it hard walls the standard Heatran set and is very annoying to switch into. It does need careful play not to have the balloon pop but that effort can really pay off. Unlike many other pokemon, Heatran has very bad rng issues but even with that, it's still very good and very annoying



Easily the best birb in the tier. After Ferrothorn, this is easily the best utility mon for me. U turn, knock off, defog and whatever else you can think of. Tornadus' speed and access to this move makes it very easy to use. More importantly is its very annoying ability. Regenerator also allows it to be a very effective scout against choice locked mons. If healthy, it can even scout out strong choiced attacks like Lele's specs and terrain boosted psychic or Blacephalon's specs flamethrower, which would immediately giveaway what set the opponent is using based on damage. I was thinking of ranking this higher than Heatran but I chose not to because Tornadus' issues is far more severe than Heatran. That issue is Zapdos, whose presence just makes you second guess clicking all its utility moves. The moment Tornadus gets paralyzed by static, it loses most of its value and it becomes very exploitable. Despite all that, it's still a very good mon overall



How the mighty have fallen. Months ago, I thought that this was easily the best mon in the tier. Incredible stab combination, incredible speed, switch move. The only thing it truly lacks is firepower even with specs, which wasn't an issue because there are a lot of strong mons in the tier that Dragapult can bring in via u turn. The problem right now is that this mon was so strong that it forced the tier to adapt to it. Dragapult had a hand to play in Weavile and Bisharp's rise, forced Toxapex to adapt a mixed defense set and pretty much solidifed that ghost is a ridiculous typing this generation. In previous gens, many ghosts were exploitable because Tyranitar just destroys them, now, godzilla is happily retiring from that job. Now, I don't think that Dragapult alone forced the rise of the dark types but I sincerely doubt they would have been discovered that fast if it wasn't for its presence. I still remember the months after Magearna was banned, every other post in this thread was a demand to suspect Dragapult. Rn, this mon is still pretty good but the presence of Weavile and scarfers like Lele and Kartana now give it good competition as speed control option



Has there ever been a pokemon that's been hated this much upon release? This mon is like the dream defensive pokemon. Toxapex is about as annoying as Ferrothorn but is far more annoying to kill. Many people hate it but I personally love it. This mon has saved my team against that many threats so many times that I don't even wanna count anymore. It does have issues in that it can be very passive and has no switch move but that's just minor inconveniences compared to how much it griefs the opposing team. It can either burn you, remove your item or lay down dangerous toxic spikes that could ruin one of your mons. Toxapex is exploitable with its non existent offensive capabilities and vulnerability to trapping but like with the others, just griefing the enemy team is well worth its downsides



Probably the single most dangerous pokemon in the tier for me. Why? This thing has a higher attack stat than fucking Mega Rayquaza. Even if you resist its stab, it's still probably take a third of your hp, unless you quad resist it. Granted, its typing is not that ideal for an offensive threat and its utility is minimal but that doesn't stop it from threatening to carve up your team. There really isn't much to say about this since everybody knows how much of a threat this guy is



OMG Landorus all the way down there? Yeah, I put it all the way down here. This is a personal top ten list. That aside, the reason why I put Landorus this low is because it's so damn exploitable. Aqua tail Garchomp and offensive balloon Heatran are probably the best examples of how this thing gets exploited so much. It can struggle to check the stuff it's supposed to check because they can easily deal with it. Melmetal can tank an eq if healthy and ice punch it to death, Kartana destroys it and it obviously can't deal with Urshifu or Weavile without some dangerous predictions. Having said that, Landorus is probably the one mon that offers so much utility in its typing and moves. However, I don't think that its positives are that valuable if the tier is more than ready to exploit it to the death. Since I have recently been using a team that was designed to exploit Landorus, I can tell that the moment this mon drops many teams would just straight up crumble. I don't care how much a pokemon offers and I don't care how others would say it is good. If a pokemon is exploitable then I'm not gonna use it. I would rather use some mons who can do a specific job that one that can do many jobs and gets exploited because of it. Landorus does have some offensive sets which can be dangerous but those require a significant amount of support. I can understand why people still fawn about this a lot but for me, it doesn't suit the way I like to play so that's why it's at the bottom of the barrel



On the final spot is Tapu Fini. Most useful Tapu imo. The biggest reason I love Tapu Fini is how one set can save you so much trouble from Ferrothorn or Toxapex. Pex does run shed shell from time to time but on the times it doesn't it just dies to this thing. This reason on its own wouldn't be enough for me to put it on the top ten so why? Because of its terrain. Just about every offensive mon in the tier don't want to get hit by status so Fini's terrain can go a long way in allowing mons to have more breathing room. For example, Kartana is in a lot of trouble if there is a Zapdos on the opposing team but if it was paired with Fini then it has more freedom to do so. Fini also have very strong defensive utility since water + fairy is a damn good typing

Honorable mentions

 

[Colin]

Here's mine

Top Ten

S Tier:

1 : Heatran has two great sets in the classic rocks SpDef and offensive air balloon rocks. Provided you don't run into its problem matchup in defog SpDef Rotom-Wash, the offensive set at worst sets rocks and the defensive set at worst chunks Lando. I rate it higher than Weavile due to it being able to be run both defensively and offensively and being largely immune to having stacked checks making it sad; defensive sets are defensive and offensive sets are generally used as a secondary breaker that is the most reliable rocker.

2 : When applicable, I believe Weavile is a better but Landorus-t is the most splashable pokemon in the tier. Being a ground immunity, electric immunity, hazard setter/control, and intimidate pivot is insane. I personally think SpDef Landorus-t is the best defogger because it can stop SpDef Heatran for a time and come in frequently enough while being immune to spikes to delay hazard stack long enough for your team to get its offense running. Unfortunately, its prior ubiquity has been exploited through methods such as G-Zapdos and aqua tail Garchomp so if you use it you likely forfeit a few more matchups than most other defensive mons.

3 : I think Weavile is slightly overhyped, but to me it is still in the same tier as Landorus-t and Heatran. It is recognized as the best speedster thanks to a good speed tier and priority, and it can run boots SD, choice band, and more niche techs such as boots low kick and never melt ice. It is blessed with an amazing stab combo of triple axel and knock, and has the rare trait of being a ghost resist which allows you to use scouts such as Heatran to beat Dragapult instead of being restricted to counters. The reason I think it is slightly overhyped is because it does not respond well to stacked checks designed to beat it; the SD set is not the best breaker and is instead a wincon, and the CB set is rocks weak w/o recovery in a meta where rocks are very difficult to stop. in those circumstances, it is still useful speed control though.

A+ Tier:

4 : Ferrothorn is the best spikes setter by far, and has a useful defensive presence against Weavile, rain, CM clef, and more. Spikes is highly abusable by many threats such as offensive Zapdos, CM clef, Weavile, and more. I don't have much to say except that spikes is meta defining and Ferro by extension is meta defining while having good defensive utility.

5 : Since I am not a high ladder player I may be a little biased, but I think Garchomp is insane right now. it can be a tank or an offensive threat, or even offensive rocks if need be. Adopting aqua tail and the mindset of a breaker on HO instead of a sweeper have allowed it to support sweepers such as Zeraora and Nihilego, and unless I have to use it defensively it is amazingly consistent. It benefits from meta trends such as the decline of Landorus and the increase of Heatran. It also has great item choice as yache can give it a chance against weavile, hail, and Buzzwhole, roslei for fairies, leftovers, and life orb. Tank chomp suddenly finds a niche again against Nidoking and Heatran on balance if the team opts to phase out landorus. It is not higher due to the epidemic of Weavile and being less splashable than its competition.

6 : This ranking is earned largely by the scarf set, which is the better than its competition due to a better speed tier than Tapu Lele and not being rocks weak. Speed control has become more and more valuable as the meta has grown toward out offensing the opponent. Kartana also has a decent band and SD set that can break for certain offenses. Not much else to say except that this is the scarf's banner on my tier list.

7 : This is the birds' banner on my list, tornadus's defog set is fine, but the set that earned this spot is the AV set which has a good defensive profile able to beat grasses and scout most special attackers provided there are no stealth rocks. Unfortunately, rocks are difficult to keep off with the dominance of Heatran and frequent hazard stack strats. for that reason, I almost gave this spot to Zapdos who when used as a defogger has a more useful defensive profile and has better offensive sets.

8 : In my opinion this is the best bulky water thanks to eject button remedying its lack of pivoting options. it fits best on balances and stalls and would be higher except Nidoking and other balance busters gained popularity. What makes it better than other bulky waters in my opinion is that it is a good answer to Weavile that can outlast it, as well as being less hazard weak and able to run SpDef sets. Its main liability is a future sight weakness, but recently stall has been running light screen pex to circumvent it.

9 : This might be an outdated take, but in spite of spikes being less common it is still great with trick sticky barb stealth rock or CM thunder in conjunction with hazard stack are quite good. being a status sponge is nice too. Other than that there is not much to say except that it preforms better on my teams more than it has any right to.

10 This spot was given to Melmetal based off of its leftovers protect and AV sets. Melm doesn't have a lot of utility moves, but if you have all bases covered you might want to pick this pokemon since it is one of the best at trading favorably once its dedicated answers (Slowbro, Zapdos Ferrothorn for protect lefties) are chipped. Unfortunately, it is rather weak to hazard stack and lets in Ferrothorn (if w/o superpower) and Slowbro for free.

Honorable mentions:

: easily chipped and shadowball is not free; I think that hydro pump is under explored as a coverage option to dumpster Heatran + Weavile defenses.

: barely outclassed by torn

: chipped too easily but great defensively short term with offensive potential

: more specific than other bulky waters but great pivot

 

[658Greninja]

These rankings are fun to make so I’m coming along for the ride.

Top Ten (and honorable mentions)

1

Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard/Low Kick

Easily the most meta defining mon in the tier. Providing teams both with invaluable speed control, and breaking. I like comparing it to Gen 5 Latios. Both have their share of checks, but they can mow them down with hazards or different sets. SD Boots is iconic, but you also have Band which has less switch in opportunities but Beat Up destroys anything that isn’t a dark resist. I’ve even messed with LO SD which can OHKO Buzzwole after chip. I found Low Kick on SD Weav to be an interesting option as it lures teams who rely on Flame Body Tran or Ferro to check it. It also opens the door for CM Fini or Lele to wreck house. Just to show how insane Weavile is even on teams with Buzzwole. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
Just by U-Turning on the Lando, I completely shifted the game to my favor. After a layer of spikes and rocks, Buzzwole was not comfortable switching in anymore. Even in games where it doesn’t get these opportunities, Knock forces some kind of progress. The most underrated aspect about Weavile is how it pairs perfectly with every other offensive threat. Volcanion and Blace I found to be the best partners for it. Can’t break through Buzzwole? Double into Volcanion/Blace and rip the opposing team in half. A mon that was C tier all throughout SS has become a top 3 threat in Crown Tundra, how interesting that the power creep benefited it.

2

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Eruption/Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock/Taunt

A household name since DPP, Tran has never stopped being itself. It is an absolute pain to comfortably switch into due to the raw power of Magma Storm, Eruption, and Taunt/Toxic on certain sets. By far the best rocker in the tier. Balloon Tran is its best set imo. I’ve even experimented with Flash Cannon to hit Dnite, Fini, CM Clef and Chomp better, it even 2HKOs SD Chomp. Taunt was another option I used a few times on Balloon Tran as it lets it shut down Slowking which would otherwise shrug off this set. Even with defensive sets, it still forces progress by setting rocks and chipping everything with Magma Storm. The amount of offensive and defensive utility it provides makes it so splashable. To sum up its metagame presence, Pex sometimes runs Shed Shell, Chomp runs Aqua Tail for Balloon, Dnite and Washtom have come back to OU as great checks to it. Even then, they can lose if it has Toxic. Tran’s ability to break holes, check the tier’s fairies and ghosts, and effectively set up rocks is invaluable.

3

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 148 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off/Smack Down
- Earthquake
- U-turn

What else is to be said about Lando. Role Compression in U-Turn, Rocks/Defog, and Knock has and always will make it one of the best in the tier. It’s trademark defensive pivot set is its best ofc but SD can also be played around, but its awkward to use due to the amount of speed control in almost every team. Not to mention it hardly touches Buzz. With this spread and Smack Down, I take a more offensive take on defensive Lando. Smack Down is an underrated option on it, it forced mindgames vs double flying cores and rips through stall that relies on Corv to defog their hazards off. Smack Down also makes it a more consistent check to Zapdos and Volcarona. Its less versatile in the amount of sets it can use in Gen 8, but the customizability of its spreads makes it as versatile as it always has been. Max HP Max SpD, Mixed Defensive for SD Chomp, and Max HP followed with speed investment for either Offensive Tran or neutral speed base 70s like Volcanion with the rest dumped into SpD. The rise of Aqua Tail Chomp and Balloon Tran hurt it a bit but it compresses multiple roles, checks Tran, electrics, and Pult while providing momentum.

4

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet/Chople Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes/Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Power Whip/Iron Head/Body Press/Gyro Ball/Thunder Wave

No matter what gen it is, it has always annoyed teams by setting hazards, knocking off hazards, and annoying things with Leech Seed (Gen 5 Ferro rarely runs Leech). Most Ferros have resorted to max HP and max Dfse to check Weavile, SD Chomp, and live certain hits. Even without SpD investment, it still can check the Tapus, and even Pult. As you can see, Ferro always goes for hazards, Knock, and Leech in its moveset, but the 4th moveslot can be messed around with. Gyro Ball ruins Torn, Iron Head consistently pressures Clef, Body Press smacks Tran or opposing Ferro, Power Whip means it doesn’t lose to Fini. T-Wave is another potential option that not only cripples Tran, but also cripples Buzz and Torn. I have also experimented with Chople Ferro which lets it switch into Urshifu once while potentially letting it 1v1 Zone. Ferro provides utility in Knock, Iron Barbs, hazards while providing teams with a steel that resists water.

5

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 112 Def / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog/Taunt
- Knock Off/Toxic
- Heat Wave/Hurricane
- U-turn

The 5th spot was difficult. I was mixed between Fini, Torn, and Pult since they are equally as meta defining. So here is Torn first. Best Defogger in the tier. Forces progress with Knock, and is the best check to Kart. It is bulky enough to pivot at least once to dangerous threats like Volcanion, Lele, and Urshifu to scout their sets. AV Torn neutralizes the threat of special breakers like Blace and Pult while hitting offensive teams decently hard enough. Icy Wind pressures Zapdos and grounds, Superpower is another option to 2HKO Tran and chunk Blissey hard. I also experimented with Taunt Tox Torn. It shuts down Lando leads, annoys fat teams, and cripples its thorn in Zapdos. There is also Nasty Plot, but its also inconsistent, especially vs cores with Koko or Zap. Specs is fun on rain. AV has a bad stealth rock problem and Boots has worse defensive utility. Even then, Torn is great as a pivot and/or defogger.

6

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald/Surf
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt

Misty Terrain is busted. It lets Buzzwole hard wall Lando and lets dangerous shit like Weavile come in on Pex who would otherwise burn it. Whirlpool destroys fat, Scarf is great speed control, but I think its impact is on its CM set. This mon can just win games it shouldn’t. If they don’t have Melm, Power Whip Ferro, or Glowking, Fini can just straight up win. It has a good mu vs most of S and A. Utility sets are great at forcing progress while checking Tran, Dnite, and Weav. Nature’s Madness + Taunt can set the tempo of a game quickly. I’ve experimented with utility sets that have Trick Barb/Scarf. It lets me immediately cripple something while not losing out on bulk. Its the best fairy and bulky water, but its not the best by a large margain. Its biggest drawback ofc is its vulnerability to Knock and hazards, a trait that isn’t common with bulky waters. It means you can’t rely on Fini as your sole check to Weavile. The amount of support that it provides for BO teams is undeniable and it is a scary wincon.

7

Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Hydro Pump/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Hex
- U-turn

If it wasn’t obvious, look at all the metagame trends and you might find some connections to their ability to check Pult. AV Torn, SpD Pex, Goltres, Lando running more SpD, Weavile. TL;DR, Pult defines the meta tho not as much as Tran for example. The combination of speed control and breaking potential is lesser than Weav, but still fantastic. It can also switch into Volcanion at least once and force it out. Mandi is nonexistent, Blissey and Hippo aren’t common these days, meaning Pult is mostly free to spam Sball as much as it wants. Even its checks are a spd drop away from being dead. Plus can run an additional move to really hammer its checks. Hydro 2HKOs SpD Tran and Lando while hitting the occasional Ttar and Hippo harder, Flamethrower smacks Ferro and Melm, Tbolt ohkos Pelipper which runs special bulk for Pult these days while 2HKOing SpD Pex in electric terrain, and the option that can destroy all of these with support, Hex. I love pairing Hex Pult with TSpikes and T-Wave support. Pads Melm/Pult/Lele is such a dangerous offensive core, as Lele softens Pult’s checks while Melm spreads paralysis and forces out Clef. There are other sets like Boots Hex, E-Belt, Band, and DD, but I found Specs to be the most splashable and most consistent.

8

Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt/Dazzling Gleam
- Dazzling Gleam/Toxic/Nature’s Madness
- U-turn/Volt Switch
- Roost

And another speedy boi, we got Koko. Its a pivot that is difficult to wear down, giving Koko plently of opportunities to come in. Its ability to check Weavile, Torn, offensive Zap, and Goltres lets it provide defensive use while giving offense at the same time. Speaking of Weavile, it also pairs excellently with other offensive threats, but it enables them even better than Weavile becuz of U-Turn/Volt Switch. It brings in in Glowking, grounds, and steels, then lets its more immediately threatening teammates pick off them. Melm, Weav, Urshifu, Ttar, Victini, Volcanion, and Tran I found to be its best partners. Koko recently has been playing around its movepool to make it more unpredictable. Toxic and Nature’s Madness combined with Knock support put its checks in bad positions while Volt Switch makes it lose out on pivoting vs Lando/Chomp, but it also means it won’t be chipped by Ferro and it hits its other checks harder. CM bluffs its standards Boots set while being a nice cleaner. Specs is another option for immediate power and Dazzling Gleams that 3HKO standard Lando. Having to play mindgames vs Steel + Lando cores sucks, but it is more rewarding than Boots. I’ve been messing around with Modest Koko since its outrunning Ada Weav and Torn is running less speed these days, plus the added dmg boost its appreciated.

9

Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Colbur Berry/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald/Body Press/Ice Beam
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Teleport

Another mon that enables a ton breakers while warding off rain ans the physical threats of the tier. I want to highlight this spread. With 60 SpD, it survives Modest Lele’s Specs Moonblast after rocks and avoid the 2HKO from Specs Steam Eruption. This makes it easier to play around these dangerous threats. SpD Bro is great on teams with Buzzwole, but this spread is a nice mid ground. I am not a huge fan of Colbur BP. You miss out on potential Scald burns for SD Chomp and Melm just to check Weavile. Even then, Band Beat Up mows right through. The reason to use the Slowtwins ofc is FS + Port. With Buzzwole rising in usage, it has another target. Urshifu, Weav, Kart, and Melm become monsters without their checks. Future Sight goes beyond that, even just crippling Lando or Tran with Future Sight is enough to seriously dent the team. FS just forces 50/50s. Plus you don’t even have to click FS as soon as you come in, you can fish for Scald burns or port out. Its a bulky water that can sponge Knock and status while providing momentum or crippling the opposition with FS.

10

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Choice Specs/Metronome
Ability: Static/Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge/Thunderbolt
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave/Substitute
- Roost/Volt Switch

Yes, Zapdos is this good rn. Offensive Zap should be experimented more. Electric/Flying/Fire coverage off of its 125 SpA is just full or potential. Three Attacks Roost is great but Specs and Sub-Roost are criminally underrated. These sets hate rocks but its not like Zap hasn’t been paired with Defog Torn/Lando before. Everything bar Glowking and Blissey gets OHKOd/2HKOd by Specs Zap, but even then, Glowking gets Knock’d and gets 2HKOd while Blissey gets pressured by Volt Switch. Sub-Roost ruins fat teams and becuz of its defensive typing, it can sub up vs a good chunk of the metagame. I like Discharge on Sub-Roost since I get to para Clef, Glowking, Ttar, and Tran. Pressure with a rocker lets the team keep rocks on stall vs Corv. Pressure is also funny by draining Tran’s Magma Storms. Offensive Zap sets itself apart from other special breakers by having more switch in opportunities in virtue to its natural bulk, its Lele/Urshifu outpacing speed tier, and defensive typing. Also Discharge paralyzing everything. Defensive Zap is still relevant, but defog Zap isn’t that good and Toxic + Volt Switch is preferable on it. It pairs great with Urshifu and Torn, allowing it to come in and rip something apart. Static lets it punish Kart, Torn and Melm while making Weavile choose between risking a para and clicking Ice Shard. Its ability to pressure teams with its offensive and defensive presence makes it one of the best breakers in OU imo.

Honorable Mentions

I know, alot of honorable mentions, but alot of these have an argument for top 10.

Clef is immune to hazards, sponges knock and status while being able to role compress. Trick Barb is pretty much puts the opponent in a 5v6 game if they don’t have Gastro or a Clef of their own. Pult check, Buzz check, Rocks, Knock, T-Wave, Aromatherapy, Calm Mind, it does it all. It is barely top 10 due to the others being more meta defining.

SD is still difficult to rkill without Weavile due to its natural bulk and speed tier. Even against Weavile, it always has the option to run Yache to ruin teams that rely on Weav to check it. Mixed Chomp is a bit underrated as it nukes Buzzwole out of the game for Weavile and Kart to take advantage of on offensive teams. Tankchomp is a Lando that sacrifices momentum, an immunity to spikes and EQ with better mus vs Tran and Nido in virtue of being able to outspeed them, along with being able to punish U-Turn spam with Rough Skin. Tankchomp also can run Flamethrower to punish Buzzwole or Ferro attempting to switch in. Its great on Balance and offensive teams like that Double Meteor Beam HO.

Pex checks ghosts, can pivot into Volcanion, and has enough bulk to allow for riskier plays. Knock and status force progress as well as more conservative plays. However it has a weird 4mss and the meta has made several adaptations to deal with it since Crown Tundra. If it isn’t running Scald then Ferro sets up spikes on it, and if it isn’t running Light Screen it gets mowed over by Future Sight.

Kart forces progress easily with Knock. Scarf is the most consistently splashable set but SD and Band are stellar breakers. Main issue is the constant presence of Torn and Buzzwole that brings it out of top 10 imo.

Buzzwole checks a plethora of physical breakers/sweepers by itself while posing an offensive threat itself. Band has been seen a couple of times in SPL and it hits like a truck but it becomes awkward as a Weavile check since Band doesn’t run Roost.

Melm is a great check Lele, CM Fini and Pult while forcing progress with either its raw power or Toxic/T-Wave. Prot + Tox has more longevity while hitting the entire metagame with Zone support , everything that isn’t hit by DIB and EQ gets Toxic’d, imo its best set. Pads spreads paralysis and bypasses its main issue with being crippled by Zapdos and Ferro. AV is very annoying to play around, especially with Grassy Terrain from Bulu. Band is fun but it isn’t that great. Its better to make the opponent dance around your coverage than to predict. Cuz Melm’s strength is that you don’t have to use your brain.

Volcanion is a destroyer of worlds. The amount of meta developments that have occurred just because of its presence is an argument for top ten. Volcanion hates rocks but it is taking something down everytime it comes in, plus its defensive typing and Water Absorb gives it more opportunities to come in to break.

Lele lacks defensive utility, but it breaks shit and Scarf is a great cleaner. Nuff said.

Dnite checks Tran, Volcanion, Tini, Urshifu, and rain. DD Dnite with Zone support is a great cleaner. It provides teams with a checks to these mons while functioning as a sweeper.

Overall, this is a very BO-centric generation akin to Gen 5 and Gen 3 which is great since these are one of my fav gens. This is fun to discuss. Its a great way to talk about what we think are the best mons while talking about fun sets.

​

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

seeing the stall teams made me wonder:

is it possible to have a stall team in the current meta without a “pink” Pokémon?



so no Blissey, clefable, new or Chansey. These are all stall staples!

on the topic of stall breakers, the most consistent ones that also perform against regular teams seem to be the STAB knock off types (and kartana):

and even to an extent.

other stall breakers have less consistency in regular games.. tho these can work really well against offense or bulky teams with the right support due to the extreme power of their turn 1 moves and decent coverage:




——



on the topic of volcanism.. try running body press to break blissey. It does about 40% to standard blissey which is a 2hko after some minor HP loss

80 Def body press V. Blissey

80 Def Volcanion Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 262-310 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

investing a tiny bit in defense EVs can go along way, just set speed to 242, and use the leftover EVs into defense. You can survive the occasional earthquake or boosted STAB close combat/knock off with the minor investment.

Incase you didn’t think surviving EQ was really possible..

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Volcanion: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

it also does respectable damage to hydriegon, which is sometimes used as a dedicated volcanion switch in.

Answering your question on Can you build a stall team without pink pokemons? (which i also assume the OG Slowtwins alongside the blobs.

YES! (but rather counterintuitive) This post will also double as a mini how to build stall, and pointing out threats that can be used in stall teams as for the past 3 weeks i have been making myself teams that is designed to absolutely annihilate stall, in which i had to learn the ins and out of stall and how to play stall myself!

Blissey and Chansey is an amazing stall mon because of massive Spdef, Cleric, Utility and Status spreading capabilities, it is perfect! it compresses so much roles into one that there isnt any other pokemon like it, except of course, Clefable, which sacrifices some bulk for either Magic Guard or Unaware, potential sweeping capabilities with calm mind, special attacking prowess and knock off which are extremely useful traits a stall team needs, hence why you seldom see a stall team without one of these 3. Mew on the other hand, is a special case as in stall it is usually a Spdef/Physdef wall with utility or Demon Mew to help sweep in the endgame, so it is much less useful in stall other than those 3.

Now of course, there are pokemon that can do the things these Blobs do but not all at once, and there are stall teams that are 100% completely viable without those 4 mons (+OG Slowtwins). For example this team Watashi used in SCL (which i then tried to Re-create and got a pretty decent success in starting from 1750s and reaching 1920 at one point which i have no proof of so have a bit of trust in me for this one. Do bear in mind i dont know the sets and had to get creative)


PU-like Stall by watashi

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-589030 this is their replay againts Chaitanya

here are some of mine with said team that i managed to save.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1518416931-dntq6xl1eanu1climsl807ijsgvmdvqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1518414301-u78n0v6jadg0rt281u4l4dq0wzyqyuopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1518397406-nrlax9qspo26ag2ggrei0xgadst7m05pw
sorry Blimax lol

The team does have a mini pink blob in Audino as a stall team needs things which is a cleric, now if you think that it is "cheating" as it is a pink pokemon, you can use pokemons like Umbreon which also doubles as a Status Absorber, Anti-Swords dancer and a bulky dark type, Another one is a rather unintuitive but decently useful Eldegoss which can definetly work in a regen-spam core as a cleric, spdef wall and hazard removal in which ive seen work in a team that looks like



with AV Reun, and Helmet amoonguss and status spam from torn, pex and hippo.

other clerics that i have seen work on stall but definetly not as good are vileplime, lanturn and G-Weezing.

Now all those talk about clerics, lets actually talk about the MUST HAVES in stall teams.

These list will have their respective user under it, i based it on what i have seen people use on stall hence why some of the mons i listed are bordering on the edge of being a joke, or the ones that i have personally use myself and rank them based on their viability.

Definetly Should Have
A Cleric

Cleric's Job and List of Clerics

A cleric's job in stall team is to rid of your teams status and also heal back with wish, stall requires long drawn out games that can take up to 200 turns and status is something than can be a hassle to fight, hence why cleric is a must have on all stall teams, here are some clerics that i tiered.
S

A

B

C

D(on't)

Hazard Control

Hazard Control's Job and Lists of Hazard Control

Hazard control is incredibly important for Stall teams as hazard is the main way for a lot of teams to chip through fat and break your core, hence having one or more hazard control in Defog, Rapid Spin or even Magic Bouncer. do bear in mind that hazard strategies like H-Stack will carry anti defoggers like gapdos so do be careful.
S

A

B

C

C-

D(on't)

Steel Types

Steel Type's Job and Lists of Steel Types

Steel is one of the best defensive typings, with stall needing to take a lot of hits, having one of the best types in the game is something any stall build wants, with threats like Lele, Melm and Weavile running the tier, Steel is a must have in OU.
S

A

B

C

D(on't)

A Status Absorber

Status Absorber's Job and List's of Status Absorber

Status is something that heavily annoys stall, hence why a cleric is extremely important, but having only 8 PPs on both cleric moves, you might want to just have a pokemon that takes the status to the chin, live with it, until your team has way too many pokemon status which then you need to click the Cleric move. So thats what status absorbers are for.
S

(technically)
A

B

C

D(on't)
EVERYTHING ELSE, DON'T GET STATUSED UNLESS ITS YOUR ABSORBER

Anti Set-up Sweeper

Anti Set-up Sweepers Job and Lists of Anti Set-up Sweeper's

When your team is just things that want to extend the game to defeat your opponents slowly, your opponent might just want to set-up with their sweepers and go ahead and sweep with their +6 +6 pokemon, well thats why you need anti setup, these mons gets in againts sweepers to either ignore their boost with unaware, copy their boosts with Ditto, haze away their boost, status them, or even taunt and prevent their sweep and beat them down slowly. although do be careful with substitute and taunt, as these can prevent your attempts to beat their set up sweepers.
S+

S

A

B

C

Immunities

Why immunities are important

Stall wants to tank hits efficiently so that they are able to defeat the opponents in the long run, and having lots of immunities help with that by taking hits without getting hurt, here are some of those immunities ive seen on stall teams
S

A

B

Status Spreaders

Status Spreader's Job and Lists of Status Spreaders

Status in stall is incredibly important as it is the main way most stall teams defeats its opponent, most teams you can find at least 3 status spreader.
S
( Para and Tox) ( Burn and Tox)
A
( Tox) ( Burn and Tox) ( Para)
B
( Tox) ( Burn and Tox)
B-
( Slp, Para and Tox) ( Tox) ( Para) ( Burn)
C
( Burn and Tox) ( Para) ( Tox and Para) ( Tox) ( Burn and Para)
D(on't)
( Tox)

Flying Types


Not a must have but is generally preferable
Hard Physical Walls

Physical Walls list

What would stall be without its walls, the backbone of stall is both physical and special walls, physical walls in this case is used to be able to eat the strongest physical attacks and also do something back, you cant just sit there, you need to either attack, spread status or spread hazard. unlike Special Walls which has blissey and chansey being the top dominant mons, physical walls doesnt have a quintesential best that will beat everything, the current most used physical wall, Toxapex, is weak to the most common physical move, Earthquake.
S

A

B

C

Hard Special Walls

Special Wall's Job and lists of Special Walls

Just like the physical walls, special walls are important for stall teams as it is their backbone from huge Special nukes like lele, volcanion and nidoking, and this time, there are far better and more consistent walls than physical ones, with things like the 2 Blolbs, Gastrodon and AV Reuniclus and unlike most physical walls, other than the 2 blobs, they can take physical attacks quite well.
S

A

B

C

Speed Control

Speed Control's Job and Lists of speed control

Speed in stall might sound weird, but a lot of stall breakers or at least threaten to break stall, doesnt actually have much speed, with things like Crawdaunt, Tapu Lele, Haxorus, Kartana, Gengar and others, they stay around 200-350 and faster mons tend to not have enough breaking power to beat the original stall core, hence carrying some speed could benefit its playstyle by outspeeding, revenge killing, or make them awkward to try to pivot in.
S

A

B


there are other speed controls, but im not going to list them as they are scraping the bottom of the barrel

Set-up Sweepers

Set Up Sweeper's Job and List of Set up sweepers

Stall teams might have a struggle ending games quickly, while stall usually stretch games to end the battle slowly but surely, stall can use some set-up sweepers to end it quicker while having a bulky backbone to support them and help chip them down to size for the setup sweeper to clean the game.

Not sure how to tier this one so i am going to just list them

Good Ones

Calm Mind, Cosmic Power
Cosmic Power
Nasty Plot
Dual Dance
Swords Dance
Nasty Plot
Bulk Up, Iron Defense
Calm Mind
Quiver Dance

More Gimmicky

Nasty Plot
Calm Mind
Calm Mind
Bulk Up
Cosmic Power, Calm Mind, Ancient Hax
Calm Mind, Nasty Plot
Bulk Up
Bulk Up

Regenerator

Regenerator's Job and Lists of regenerator pokemon

Regenerators are one of the fixtures of stall and can almost be seen on all stall teams, generally a stall team has one or two regenerator mons most commonly being pex, regen is good because it can help sponge attacks and help pivot while healing the damage off, this is extremely useful to preserve moves like recover in long games so it doesnt run out of pp, or help you get in a much better wall while not fearing a rogue coverage move.
S

S-

A

B

C

D(on't)

Anti Weather

Anti Weather's Job and Lists of anti weather

Anti Weather. what does that mean? it means carrying pokemon that are fit to beat certain weather archetypes. These pokemon has terrific match up againts weather abuser and can help mitigate and stop the assault, these can stem from resists, immunity, able to defeat the pokemon or changing the weather. Weather can be sometimes tricky to beat as they can win right then and there outright in very few turns if they got the chance, so here are some ways to stop them.

Hail
Walls Zolt
Potentially Walls Zolt, Volcanion and Arctovish
Changes weather, Checks Zolt
Walls Zolt
Walls Zolt, Sets Up Rocks, Stalls Weather
Walls Zolt
Walls every hail sweeper

Rain
Walls most swift swimmer
Good match up vs most rain staples
Hurricane good
Walls Physical Rain Threats
Checks most rain threats
Checks most rain threats
walls most rain threats
Beats rain

Sun
Hard walls venusaur and can paralyze
Same as above, but less so
Resist Fire, Sets Up Rocks, can threaten most sun threats
May Carry Heat Wave
Can threaten most sun threats
Massive Spdef to stop venusaur
Same as above

Sand
Walls most sand threats
Same as above except for dracozolt
Helps pivot and beat tyranitar and excadrill
Can stack hazard and beat tyranitar and excadrill
Generally beats sand threats
Generally beats sand threats
Generally beats sand threats
Generally beats sand threats

Anti Anti-Stall

Anti Anti-Stall's job and Lists of some Anti Anti-Stall threats

Stall is notoriously annoying so people will carry a few anti stall measures, usually these comes from having slow but strong breakers, hazard stack or taunt. These however, can be beaten with faster and stronger mons that shuts down these strategy. one of them being having Skarm stacking spikes and forcing the opponent to defog while having Gapdos to feed off defog with defiant and break the opposing team while they are put in an awkward "Pick a Mon" situation againts stall which is rough.

I am going to list a few mons that can help with these.

Beats Hazard Stack and taunt
Beats Heatran
Beats Haxorus, Crawdaunt, and Nidoking
Beats Lele, Blacephalon and Gengar while being generally fast
Beats most slower threats and knocks off
Hazard Stack
Strong and fast while able to surprise with choice band or setup
Fast Revenge killer and spins
Fast revenge killer
Random scarf users to throw off balance

Gimmicky, but not bad
Trapper

Trapper's Job and Lists of trappers

Stall may struggle with some annoying fat pokemon, or some offenstive juggernauts that is hard to beat or wittle down, trappers can help with those by, well, trapping them till they die, these can range from perish song, pp stalling or brute force, here are some trappers that can work on stall
Block Spite pp stall
Block Spite pp stall
Magma Taunt
Perish trapper
Persih Trapper
while i think fini on stall is silly, it is still an amazing whirl trapper
Whirlpool trapper
can be used like gking, not as good
Infestation
Infestation
This one is a joke, pressure mean look stall was pretty fun tho
i have only seen one, but i saw a fire spin volcanion stall on ladder once, thought id mention it

PP Staller

PP Staller's Job and Lists of PP Stallers

PP Stalling or Pressure stalling is a strategy in which you have pressure on most of your mons with some having protect and toxic to wittle down your opponent while stalling them out of good moves, so things like Urshifu, Volcanion, Heatran who spams 8 PP moves wont be able to use them anymore, you can even pp stall things like Psychic, Plasma Fist, Spikes or Leech Seed. You are looking to stall them out of good moves and statusing everything so in the end you win just by the fact you have moves and they dont. Also, a misconception is that you need pressure to be a good pp staller, you do not. simply having recovery with protect, regenerator spam or high pp moves like haze in one team can help stall out moves quickly, so in conjunction with Pressure, it will be a nightmare to face
S

S-

A

B
(cress has lunar dance)
C
(all carry protect)
D(on't)

Contact Chip

Contact Chip's Job and Users

Contact Chip is one way for stall to rack up damage on physical attackers, U-turn is a common pivot move due to its versatility in helping getting in threats, stall can abuse this fact by carrying lots of rocky helmet or contact damage ability/moves. This can help severely annoy the opponent while chipping them down, this works better because a lot of special attackers like Dragapult and Tapu Koko carries u-turn.
S

A

B

C

Taunt users

Taunt Users

Taunt is something that is known to beat stall, however, stall can use it to prevent things like status, hazard or set ups from sweepers. Usually taunt is most commonly found on more fat balance/semistall builds with torn to prevent opposing teams to stack hazards and set up.
Common users of taunt

Balance Breakers

Balance Breaker's Job and Lists of Balance Breakers

Now we are in the realm of fat balance, but In my opinion that is still in the territory of stall. Since balance is really popular right now it tends to have a good match up againts stall, thats why bringing some things that break balance is great, for example Slowbro + Nidoking supported by a fat core can be hell to break through as nidoking is a "pick a mon to sacrifice" type of mon making it tougher to play around with a core that fat.

Lists of things that breaks balance and can fit on stall (from experience)
Nidoking
Volcanion
Aegislash
Zeraora
Blacephalon
Weavile
Glowking
Nihilego
Tapu Lele

Hazard Stack

Hazard Stacks Job and lists of hazard stacker

Hazards are one of the most crucial part of singles pokemon, any playstyle can abuse it, even stall. While it is less popular than the usual rocks + 2-3 defoggers often seen in stall, some stall teams still definetly use it either having 1 defogger or spinners, most commonly seen with spikes + defog Skarm, Ferro + Defog Torn, or even using more niche users like mew. having hazard stack + a fat core helps with wittling down the opposition by forcing them to switch around their breakers while your hazards beat them down slowly alongside status or chip damage. the hazards use can be toxic spikes, stealth rocks or spikes.
S

A

B

C

D(on't)

Now those some things that stall teams would need or appreciate having, now, you just have to build it, what kind of stall do you want?

Triple Defog? Status Spam? PP Stall? Water Spam?

You first need the defensive backbone or main core for example

1. + +
2. + +
3. + +
4. + +
5. + +
6. + +
7. + +
8. + +
9. + +
10. + +

and then add support to it, with resist, speed control, hazard removal, immunities, utility and more.

like number 3, the pp stall core is there, just add support in immunities to ground like Shedinja, Garchomp, Gastro or even Lando while having extra longevity with Wish Clef or Blissey or go all out and have Lunar dance cresselia to add on to the pp stall.

another example is adding a sweeper in the regen-fat core of 2 like Demon mew, Dual Dance Reun, or something faster in the likes of CM Koko, or add in to the bulk by having Spdef corviknight, this core lends itself well with using set up as you can chip them down slowly with status/hazard and heal around with your regen core so then in the end you can set-up with your cleaner after the opponent's team has been broken down.

last example i wanna point out is the first one for being passive and bulky, it lends itself well with having protect spam + status spam if combined with mons like Blissey, Torn, Shed to help spread status and also having Clef, Ditto, or Quag to make sure set-up sweepers dont get its way with you.

No matter the core, it is important to build upon them by having things that support it or be supported by it so that your team will have an easier time taking hits and winning in the long run.

I am going to Re-list the stall teams i posted in my first post on this topic below here

List of Stall Teams

Buzzwole + NP Rotom heat stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Will-o-Mew stall (Sets Confirmed (except clef) and EVs Unconfirmed)

Amoonguss pex torn regen spam with quag (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Torn Zwole + Gastro Fat Balance (Sets (and maybe pokemon) and EVs Unconfirmed)

NP Torn Sand Stall (Sets Confirmed, EVs Unconfirmed)

Xatu + Shedinja pex stall (Sets and EVs Unconfirmed)

Triple Removal Corv Dnite Avalugg Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month ago i remember

Triple Defog Corv Zapdos Dnite Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed. ronaldo o fenomeno edrala the goat)

Old School Mandibuzz Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed)

Buzzwole + Reun Stall (Sets and EVs Confirmed) this one was a month or so ago i remember, and was 1700s

So after much "research" (aka playing everyday and reading some suggestions here) ive concluded stall has made a comeback and should be respected once more. The meta in ladder at least has become somewhat friendly to it while still hosting the threats like Trapper fini, Heatran, Taunt Spam, Balance Galore, Physical attacker + Future sight which are the the things that made it bad in the first place.
there also has been a rise of this to counter those strats that can be potentially weak to stall like Nidoking, Volcanion, Sand Teams, and more.

Even if that last part of the statement above isnt true, it is true that stall has made a comeback, however long this will last it is here, and if you, like me, have indulge in the pleasure of knowing that stall is bad and have build fun teams without giving a slight bit of care in the match-up of stall, its time to fix those mistakes and actually use teams that doesnt suck againts stall.

Few days ago, i built a para-spam team with Togekiss + Pads Melm and due to the frequency of stall in 1800+/Top 50 in OU Ladder, and it did extremely well getting me to 1988 in my first test run from 1700, i will now keep using it and attempt to get to at least 2050 elo.


Now!

i should probably mention some great anti-stall mons after i gave a rundown on stall mons, so here are the great ones

Hax them till they die
Good stab + coverage with set up and ignoring unaware is great
Pads melm is amazing as it outspeeds most stall walls and can paralyze the faster ones before flincing them down
Taunt good.
Hail is great againts stall, with chip and unwallable stab, it has a good matchup
Heatran is great because of trapping and taunt
Taunt + trapping/Taunt + Set-up and having massive bulk itself
Taunt madness koko is underrated and actually beats stall, apart from that koko still does have a decent matchup vs stall
Band ttar murks walls
Hazard stack has a great match up
Calm mind lele is genuinely underrated and actually has a great MU vs stall even with the unaware threats, thanks to Fusien for putting me on to this
IF Pain Split + Grass Knot
Taunt CM Keldeo is actually underrated and incredible, even vs things that arent stall
Future Sight + Big physical attacker
The Craw Dad is still, the face of huge hits and stallbreaking
While i do think it is overrated, Haxorus will still put fear in stall's eyes
Sub Nasty Plot or even Scarf Plot gengar is amazing at breaking stall as it sets up on so many things
Substitute + Shell Smash + Stored Power.... Even without sub it destroys stall (and stored power "ignores" unaware)
Magic Bounce + Set up
Hard hits + Trick

Now there are definetly more threats that absolutely destroys stall than what i just mention, it just goes to show that even if stall makes a comeback, there are still counter plays to it.

Imo, a lot of teams look like they don't break these stall teams if you're not a confident and experienced player of this tier.

I am understanding, perhaps wrongly, that when you say 'a lot of teams don't break stall' what you mean is they don't do well at breaking walls if there is a blissy. And it is true that ppl aren't preparing explicitly for blissy.

But actually the mainline teams in the tier (the paradigm blueprint is ox the fox's week 1 spl team) all break stall super hard. It's not perfect of course, but the stall player is at a big disadvantage and will have to make more correct predictions than the offensive player in order to win. Imo, you cannot play with these full stalls in tournaments, it just isn't realistic to be so passive.

There are certain pokemon, like tapu koko w volt switch, that basically mean these stall teams will never equalize against a good opponent. IMO.

After you posted this i have seen some tournament games and that ox team youre talking about and youre right, they definetly have things that beat stall, and less experienced players like me does have trouble againts them but now i have understood more about how to beat stall and build teams that arent weak againts them. So yea, this whole stall making a come back ordeal might not have much of an effect on tours or high level play but in ladder you can definetly feel it.

Like what?

And I definitely agree not all teams can beat stall.

Answered in the post


Sorry for the extremely long post, thank you if youve read this far, this post was meant to explain how stall is built by someone who has tried it out for a bit and using teams trying to counter stall. I know its a bit backwards for me as someone who struggles againts stall, making a post on stall teams but hey,

Goodbye Everyone

 

[TURBODERP]

Amazing stuff

As a lover of fat, I love to see this. Just wondering if you feel Mantine has a place on Stall, as I feel that while it's niche it has some utility in being the hardest counter to Volcarona in the tier (outside of Toxic Volc I guess) and a Water-immunity that's also Ground-immune, plus it can pack Defog. Of course it's very passive and needs HDB+no Toxic, but yea.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

As a lover of fat, I love to see this. Just wondering if you feel Mantine has a place on Stall, as I feel that while it's niche it has some utility in being the hardest counter to Volcarona in the tier (outside of Toxic Volc I guess) and a Water-immunity that's also Ground-immune, plus it can pack Defog. Of course it's very passive and needs HDB+no Toxic, but yea.

if you ask me a year ago my answer would be yes, but right now, i dont know, yea it compresses a lot of rolls, can haze, eats up volcarona and volcanion, defog, spreads status but i dont think its good enough. imo it could def work but i wouldnt pick it as my first bulky water

 

[Pinkacross]

Storm Zone and I, Pinkacross are declaring war on Stall. Stall has seen a massive increase in usage recently, in all levels of play. Edrala, the current ladder Stall king, reached 200 ELO above #2 mere days ago. Stall utilizes Protect on a variety of pokemon to counter Future Sight, making it unbeatable for many teams. Stall fishes for good matchups, removes almost all thinking and planning from the game, and takes forever. I beseech you all to join us in this battle to put Stall back where it belongs: an inconsistent, crappy, not-worth-it playstyle that will no longer plague the OU ladderers. To do this, we need to start anti-stalling our teams. This thread will tell you how to play against Stall, what cores destroy Stall, and give some anti-Stall teams as a reference. Together, we can kill Stall. When Stall players decide to match up fish after today, their line will get caught up on a log.

Anti-Stall Cores:
These are some cores that are great for beating Stall, but also good in general and threatening against a wide variety of playstyles. Note that there are other cores that break Stall, but these are some of the most applicable.

1. Future Sight + Setup

+

Future Sight + Swords Dance Kartana / Swords Dance Bisharp / Swords Dance Weavile / Swords Dance Landours-Therian, and others. Many stalls rely on Protect to manage Future Sight, but often can’t take on certain types of setup unless they are dealt with immediately. This is a fatal flaw in all Stall teams. Future Sight + Teleport users are ideal, but Galarian Slowking can also work. Note that Future Sight + Choice Band Kartana can also be quite effective.

2. Victini + Tapu Koko

+

Heavy Duty Boots Victini with Will-O-Wisp, Bolt Strike, U-Turn, and V-Create is a very strong pokemon in general but this core also decimates many Stalls. Particularly when paired with Future Sight, this core has no walls whatsoever.

3. Crawdaunt and Volcanion Rain

/

+

Choice Band Crabhammer in the Rain ruins everything. Crunch, Knock Off, and Aqua Jet work well for the next 3 slots so even no-item or previously knocked Toxapex drops. This super powered Aqua Jet is also a nightmare for more offensive teams to deal with. Choice Specs Volcanion on Rain is also near unwallable.

4. Tapu Lele

Many Tapu Lele sets threaten Stall. Life Orb with Calm Mind, Psyshock, Moonblast / Draining Kiss and Focus Blast notably ruins many Stall teams. Heavy Duty Boots or Assault Vest sets with Future Sight and Thunderbolt are also very threatening to many Stalls. Choice Specs is also great, though all Tapu Lele sets are walled by Shedinja (other than Specs Shadow Ball, which also gets Jirachi).

5. Choice Band Tyranitar

Choice Band Tyranitar with Stone Edge, Crunch, Ice Punch, and a filler move like Assurance, Heavy Slam, or Fire Punch runs through 100% of Stall teams. It also auto kills Shedinja, which is nice. Tyranitar is also a great Ghost resist that invalidates Blacephalon and helps against Zapdos, so it’s not too hard to fit onto a team.

6. Future Sight + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

+

Urshifu can’t be Protected on due to Unseen Fist, making this pair very strong. Choice Band even lets Urshifu OHKO many usual Protect pokemon. This core is vulnerable to Shedinja, although you can run Flamethrower over Slack Off on Slowbro/Slowking to catch Shedinja on the switch.

7. Beat Up

/

Choice Banded Weavile and Bisharp with Beat Up are extremely threatening, able to 2HKO Toxapex and threaten walls like Buzzwole and Tapu Fini with Iron Head from Bisharp and Poison Jab and Triple Axel from Weavile. If these are played well and the team you’re using has a strong Beat Up, these two can be devastating. Stall, and every other team, really has no answer.

8. Alakazam

+

Nasty Plot Alakazam with Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Expanding Force absolutely runs through Stall. Most Stalls just lose to the pressure it puts on. I recommend Focus Sash, which helps Alakazam be more consistent against other playstyles, but Life Orb can be used to pack an extra punch against bulkier teams.

9. Galarian Zapdos

Choice Band and Protective Pads Taunt both work well, Choice Band a bit more so. Galarian Zapdos is a great pokemon in general, but the way it forces Stall teams to either deal with having hazards up or taking on a +2 Choice Band Galarian Zapdos puts on immense pressure. Rocks, Spikes, and Galarian Zapdos is a recipe to defeat many Stalls.

10. Taunt Tornadus

Both Taunt with Nasty Plot and Taunt Knock Off sets are very threatening against Stall teams. Just make sure to run 8 HP on Nasty Plot Taunt sets so they reliably beat Blissey.

11. Guts

/

Conkeldurr and Heracross are difficult to fit onto a team, but they both shred Balance and Stall. Close Combat Conkeldurr in particular ruins Stall when used alongside Facade and Knock Off. There is simply no wall. Conkeldurr’s Mach Punch provides very useful priority, making it a bit easier to fit onto a team than Heracross.

12. Mold Breaker

/

Mold Breaker setup pokemon can’t be stopped by Unaware walls, and they also ignore Shedinja’s Wonder Guard. This makes them very threatening to Stall. SD Excadrill can work pretty well on a Hazard Stack, it gives dual utility of Rapid Spin and being an Electric immunity, very solidly answering Tapu Koko and Regieleki. Haxorus is harder to fit but it ruins many bulky teams with Life Orb and a Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Poison Jab, and Scale Shot.

13. Trick

/

+

Tricking, specifically Choice Scarf (although Choice Specs, Choice Band, Tricky Barb, and Black Sludge can all be effective) can threaten Stall immensely. However, Sticky Hold Gastrodon shuts down almost every Trick user, making this a somewhat inconsistent way of countering Stall.

14. Double Regenerator

Having two Regenerator pokemon (say, Toxapex and Tornadus) won't necessarily break Stall, but it basically makes it impossible for Stall to break you. You can swap between them forever, and force a tie. /offertie is the command for this.

There are many other ways to beat Stall than the ones mentioned here, these are simply some of the most common and easily implemented. Feel free to be creative when crushing Stall! Weird stuff like Taunt Jellicent and Nasty Plot Alolan Raichu also ruins Stall.

Anti-Stall Teams:
I recommend trying to build your own anti-Stall teams using the cores above-- more variation of anti-Stall teams will make it impossible for Stall to prepare for-- but this can help you get started! These teams all ruin most Stalls.

- Beat Up Bisharp Offense: https://pokepast.es/7d52906dcd563138

- Future Sight + SD Bisharp: https://pokepast.es/4ee4f39edee5c578

- Alakazam Psyspam: https://pokepast.es/e822de67c9b3de96

- Taunt NP Tornadus Rain: https://pokepast.es/17c46e18102c09c8

- Regieleki Rain: https://pokepast.es/33cdf94c2813cb1f

- Galarian Zapdos Hazard Stack: https://pokepast.es/4ded35a1948b16a9

- Crawdaunt Rain: https://pokepast.es/c54cef3af3edaf0e

- Magnezone + Kartana: https://pokepast.es/9d0a1b51a58fc6d5

- Blaziken HO: https://pokepast.es/fb752976d084784f

How to Play Against Stall: written by Storm Zone

“ok so vs stall teams they will make whatever risks and sacrifices to defeat your breaker so that they can wall the rest of your team, preserving the threats to their team is important, remember when there is a stallbreaker alive that threatens their defensive core, make sure it only comes in on a teleport or a u-turn, because more often than not they can be aggressive and hit you on the switch”

Put this emblem in your signature to show support! Our goal is to educate ladder players on how to build anti-Stall teams to hold back the rise of Stall play and return to a more competitive, thoughtful metagame. Insert this on your signature through this link “http://zupimages.net/up/22/13/8gag.jpg” I recommend using 120 px size. Click "insert image," then insert that http link in the URL box that comes up. To resize the photo, click on it and the size adjustment will come up.

 

[Illusion master 2365]

En guarde!
Welcome to this Anti-Stall War!

I am a soldier who hates stall-


▪︎My anti stall force-
https://pokepast.es/9e12f4c1f5abe7a0

 

[TURBODERP]

>mfw my first post in months and the next posts are trying to destroy what I love

 

[658Greninja]

Storm Zone and I, Pinkacross are declaring war on Stall. Stall has seen a massive increase in usage recently, in all levels of play. Edrala, the current ladder Stall king, reached 200 ELO above #2 mere days ago. Stall utilizes Protect on a variety of pokemon to counter Future Sight, making it unbeatable for many teams. Stall fishes for good matchups, removes almost all thinking and planning from the game, and takes forever. I beseech you all to join us in this battle to put Stall back where it belongs: an inconsistent, crappy, not-worth-it playstyle that will no longer plague the OU ladderers. To do this, we need to start anti-stalling our teams. This thread will tell you how to play against Stall, what cores destroy Stall, and give some anti-Stall teams as a reference. Together, we can kill Stall. When Stall players decide to match up fish after today, their line will get caught up on a log.

Anti-Stall Cores:
These are some cores that are great for beating Stall, but also good in general and threatening against a wide variety of playstyles. Note that there are other cores that break Stall, but these are some of the most applicable.

1. Future Sight + Setup

+

Future Sight + Swords Dance Kartana / Swords Dance Bisharp / Swords Dance Weavile / Swords Dance Landours-Therian, and others. Many stalls rely on Protect to manage Future Sight, but often can’t take on certain types of setup unless they are dealt with immediately. This is a fatal flaw in all Stall teams. Future Sight + Teleport users are ideal, but Galarian Slowking can also work. Note that Future Sight + Choice Band Kartana can also be quite effective.

2. Victini + Tapu Koko

+

Heavy Duty Boots Victini with Will-O-Wisp, Bolt Strike, U-Turn, and V-Create is a very strong pokemon in general but this core also decimates many Stalls. Particularly when paired with Future Sight, this core has no walls whatsoever.

3. Crawdaunt and Volcanion Rain

/

+

Choice Band Crabhammer in the Rain ruins everything. Crunch, Knock Off, and Aqua Jet work well for the next 3 slots so even no-item or previously knocked Toxapex drops. This super powered Aqua Jet is also a nightmare for more offensive teams to deal with. Choice Specs Volcanion on Rain is also near unwallable.

4. Tapu Lele

Many Tapu Lele sets threaten Stall. Life Orb with Calm Mind, Psyshock, Moonblast / Draining Kiss and Focus Blast notably ruins many Stall teams. Heavy Duty Boots or Assault Vest sets with Future Sight and Thunderbolt are also very threatening to many Stalls. Choice Specs is also great, though all Tapu Lele sets are walled by Shedinja (other than Specs Shadow Ball, which also gets Jirachi).

5. Choice Band Tyranitar

Choice Band Tyranitar with Stone Edge, Crunch, Ice Punch, and a filler move like Assurance, Heavy Slam, or Fire Punch runs through 100% of Stall teams. It also auto kills Shedinja, which is nice. Tyranitar is also a great Ghost resist that invalidates Blacephalon and helps against Zapdos, so it’s not too hard to fit onto a team.

6. Future Sight + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

+

Urshifu can’t be Protected on due to Unseen Fist, making this pair very strong. Choice Band even lets Urshifu OHKO many usual Protect pokemon. This core is vulnerable to Shedinja, although you can run Flamethrower over Slack Off on Slowbro/Slowking to catch Shedinja on the switch.

7. Beat Up

/

Choice Banded Weavile and Bisharp with Beat Up are extremely threatening, able to 2HKO Toxapex and threaten walls like Buzzwole and Tapu Fini with Iron Head from Bisharp and Poison Jab and Triple Axel from Weavile. If these are played well and the team you’re using has a strong Beat Up, these two can be devastating. Stall, and every other team, really has no answer.

8. Alakazam

+

Nasty Plot Alakazam with Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Expanding Force absolutely runs through Stall. Most Stalls just lose to the pressure it puts on. I recommend Focus Sash, which helps Alakazam be more consistent against other playstyles, but Life Orb can be used to pack an extra punch against bulkier teams.

9. Galarian Zapdos

Choice Band and Protective Pads Taunt both work well, Choice Band a bit more so. Galarian Zapdos is a great pokemon in general, but the way it forces Stall teams to either deal with having hazards up or taking on a +2 Choice Band Galarian Zapdos puts on immense pressure. Rocks, Spikes, and Galarian Zapdos is a recipe to defeat many Stalls.

10. Taunt Tornadus

Both Taunt with Nasty Plot and Taunt Knock Off sets are very threatening against Stall teams. Just make sure to run 8 HP on Nasty Plot Taunt sets so they reliably beat Blissey.

11. Guts

/

Conkeldurr and Heracross are difficult to fit onto a team, but they both shred Balance and Stall. Close Combat Conkeldurr in particular ruins Stall when used alongside Facade and Knock Off. There is simply no wall. Conkeldurr’s Mach Punch provides very useful priority, making it a bit easier to fit onto a team than Heracross.

12. Mold Breaker

/

Mold Breaker setup pokemon can’t be stopped by Unaware walls, and they also ignore Shedinja’s Wonder Guard. This makes them very threatening to Stall. SD Excadrill can work pretty well on a Hazard Stack, it gives dual utility of Rapid Spin and being an Electric immunity, very solidly answering Tapu Koko and Regieleki. Haxorus is harder to fit but it ruins many bulky teams with Life Orb and a Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Poison Jab, and Scale Shot.

13. Trick

/

+

Tricking, specifically Choice Scarf (although Choice Specs, Choice Band, Tricky Barb, and Black Sludge can all be effective) can threaten Stall immensely. However, Sticky Hold Gastrodon shuts down almost every Trick user, making this a somewhat inconsistent way of countering Stall.

There are many other ways to beat Stall than the ones mentioned here, these are simply some of the most common and easily implemented. Feel free to be creative when crushing Stall! Weird stuff like Taunt Jellicent and Nasty Plot Alolan Raichu also ruins Stall.

Anti-Stall Teams:
I recommend trying to build your own anti-Stall teams using the cores above-- more variation of anti-Stall teams will make it impossible for Stall to prepare for-- but this can help you get started! These teams all ruin most Stalls.

- Beat Up Bisharp Offense: https://pokepast.es/7d52906dcd563138

- Future Sight + SD Bisharp: https://pokepast.es/4ee4f39edee5c578

- Alakazam Psyspam: https://pokepast.es/e822de67c9b3de96

- Taunt NP Tornadus Rain: https://pokepast.es/17c46e18102c09c8

- Regieleki Rain: https://pokepast.es/33cdf94c2813cb1f

- Galarian Zapdos Hazard Stack: https://pokepast.es/4ded35a1948b16a9

- Crawdaunt Rain: https://pokepast.es/c54cef3af3edaf0e

- Magnezone + Kartana: https://pokepast.es/9d0a1b51a58fc6d5

- Blaziken HO: https://pokepast.es/fb752976d084784f

How to Play Against Stall: written by Storm Zone

“ok so vs stall teams they will make whatever risks and sacrifices to defeat your breaker so that they can wall the rest of your team, preserving the threats to their team is important, remember when there is a stallbreaker alive that threatens their defensive core, make sure it only comes in on a teleport or a u-turn, because more often than not they can be aggressive and hit you on the switch”

Put this emblem in your signature to show support! Our goal is to educate ladder players on how to build anti-Stall teams to hold back the rise of Stall play and return to a more competitive, thoughtful metagame. Insert this on your signature through this link “http://zupimages.net/up/22/13/8gag.jpg” I recommend using 120 px size.

With Pinkcross and Storm Zone on our side, we shall vanquish stall back to obscurity and bring forth a more fun, healthy metagame. Stall’s attempts to adapt to our assaults are futile.

Here is my squads.

https://pokepast.es/b0f401cfb46c95f7

https://pokepast.es/82073adaeb3087e6

https://pokepast.es/cbee624a9123faa0

https://pokepast.es/1eafae20ede88784

 

[AquaVanilla]

tyrantrum beats stall and IM ANTI STALL
support the tyrantrum movement!
https://pokepast.es/bb7db98d96210b4e

 

[Eeveeto]

Since war to Stall has been declared, as Stall defender I should share some techs that will help Stallers to survive against these haters. Won,t share entire teams, since I still need them.

1.

Landlord (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 SpD (Can be changed)
Careful Nature
IVs: 30 Spe (can be changed)
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Knock Off / Toxic
- Defog / Sword Dance / Bulk Up

Best OU Mon is also a great Stall asset. A big problem with Lando is that it has no recovery, so it's often viewed as unreliable in long games, due to being vulnerable to both Knock Off and Status. Well, it does have recovery in Rest and this allows it to Defog hazards without fearing random Toxic. If 2 Defog users are already in the team, then Lando can also act as a win condition against other bulky teams with SD or Bulk Up.

2.

Cabezaconcha (Slowking) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD ( can be changed)
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Earthquake / Liquidation
- Future Sight
- Dragon Tail

Walls Lele and Nidoking way better than the usual set. Also fucks over some Trick + Recover Mons such us Clefable. Future Sight + Dragon Tail get random KOs.

3.

Irene Noren (Ferrothorn) (F) @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Chople Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Bullet Seed
- Rest

Its frustrating to have Ferrothorn check opposing Koko and Fini only for it to be knocked or Scald burned and incapable of recovering health due to a Clefable being in the opposing team. Or even worse, trapped and exterminated by Zone. Well, this Ferrothorn set does not aim to win, but to not lose instead, which is the usual Stall strategy. No hazards, just PP Stall and wall some stall killers like Fini, Koko, Weavile and Superpower-less Melmetal. It aint much, but its honest work.

4.

Sleeping Titan (Regigigas) @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Body Slam
- Sleep Talk / Power-Up Punch
- Rest

Unless the opponent packs a Fini, a Koko or a fight Mon, Regigigas is hard to take down. It gets some utility with Knock + Ghost immunity and can act as a win condition vs opposing Stalls.

5.

Smogon? (Weezing-Galar) (M) @ Rocky Helmet / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Corrosive Gas / Sludge Bomb / Defog / Toxic Spikes / etc. (really many options here).
- Pain Split

A well played SD Garchomp always makes progress... unless this thing appears. Seriously, who was the genius who unranked Weezing? Fully walling Garchomp alone should give Weezing merits to be used on some Stalls, but it also checks some SD Landos, non Smart Strike Kartana, Watershifu. Buzzwole, Rillaboom and Hawlucha among others.

6.

Lord Guzz (Guzzlord) @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake / Heavy Slam / Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

A bulkier but slower Hydreigon that has Knock Off. Doesn,t like Fini and Koko, but at least can Knock the former and EQ the later. Fully walls Blacephalon, like Hydreigon.

7.

Moo (Miltank) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 188 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Earthquake
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Specialized wall that checks specific, but very dangerous things: Heatran, Weavile, Bisharp and Blacephalon. Outspeeds Arctzolt outside of Hail and Crawdaunt too (though its not a good switch-in to them). Would wall Victini too if it didn,t have U-Turn, Expanding Force or Final Gambit.

8.


Sexcadrill (Excadrill) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

Classic ORAS set, but it still has some use. Better check to Koko than Ferrothorn, destroys Knock Off less Nihilego, outspeeds and wins vs CM Clef, can switch into Lele once or twice. Lives Magmar Storm from full, though its suboptimal to use it for that. Needs big support, but works.


9.

Galarian Golem (Coalossal) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Rock Blast

Spiker not trapped by Zone. Totally walls Volcarona for teams that don,t have Bliss or Tran, walls many special Mons if used in Sand, spreads random Flame Body burns.

10.

Mostachitos (Jellicent) (M) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Def / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Taunt
- Night Shade
- Recover

Walls Watershifu and some rain Mons. Traps opposing Stalls. Set can change to work vs other type of teams.

11.

Regina (Mandibuzz) @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 152 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Defog
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The main problem with Mandibuzz is that it collapses to status. Well, Rest Talk Mandibuzz avoids that and still checks things it means to check, like Ghosts, Boomer, Chomp, etc.

12.

Zapdosorio (Zapdos) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure / Static
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Defog / Toxic / Hurricane
- Roost
- Heat Wave / Toxic / Hurricane

This is Zapdos. Everyone uses offensive Zapdos nowadays, but defensive is still more than viable. You won,t find a better Galarian Zapdos counter.

13.

Fatal Flower (Vileplume) (M) @ Rocky Helmet / Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Strength Sap
- 3 of Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Moonblast, Infestation, Aromatheraphy... and well, it gets lots of status moves.

Checks Waterhifu. Walls Zeraora and most Rillabooms. Annoys with random Status and can surprise Ferro with Infestation.

14.

Hear Me Roar (Incineroar) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz / Flamethrower / Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Walls Blacephalon, Victini and most Weaviles. Intimidates and makes progress with Knock Off.

15.

Furia Roja (Gyarados) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Status absorber with very good defensive typing that abusses hazards.

16.

PoliCorrupto (Poliwrath) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald
- Circle Throw

Same to above. Fully walls Weavile, Bisharp and Crawdaunt, annoys Rain a lot. The problem? Koko and FIni don,t allow to sleep.

17.

Lentinula (Shiinotic) (M) @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Thunder Wave / Giga Drain
- Moonblast
- Strength Sap

Vileplume but with Fairy typing. This allows to check Crawdaunt.

18.

Heat Snake (Centiskorch) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Rest


Last, the Skorcher. CM Clefable or Volcarona will never sweep while this Mon is alive. It also switches into all Kartana Moves except Knock and Aerial Ace. Heatran can,t trap and will lose the item. Blacephalon is checked well enough. Can be a win condition.


I don,t play OU too much this days, but hopefully with this posts, my fellow Stall enjoyers can get the inspiration they need to defeat these whack offense dudes. The best offense is a good defense after all.

 

[Smashburn]

Moral of the story: run really obscure Crawdaunt sets so they can't check jack squat lol.

 

[Morkal]

Hey everyone; I haven't been on the forums in a hot minute, so I just wanted to share with you a couple of unconventional picks that I've been testing on and off on Showdown to some decent success (I can't believe I'm phrasing it this way, quirky choices are all I ever post about, but hey, a ton of you enjoyed my Manectric post so I must be doing something right? Who knows, let's get into the post).

Keldeo

Keldeo-Resolute @ Leftovers / Life Orb (Depends on your tolerance for 2HKO risk-taking)
Ability: Justified
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Secret Sword / Aura Sphere (Regular form required for Aura Sphere, niche option in case you'd rather hit Fighting-weak mons on the Special side)
- Icy Wind
- Flip Turn​

Keldeo has been consistently overshadowed not only because of power creep but because of Urshifu-RS as well, but what if I told you Keldeo has a set that Urshifu-RS can't pull off, a set that's damn fine in OU? Introducing Kelturn, your new favorite niche offensive utility Pokemon. Let's start with the EV allotment; 208 Speed with a Timid nature is just enough to speed creep Jolly Garchomp (with Keldeo being 334 to Garchomp's 333) while also outspeeding the slew of base 100s and lower speed Pokemon that litter OU's landscape. The HP EVs bring Keldeo up to a serviceable 335 / 216 / 216 bulk across the board while still maintaining a fantastic 357 Special Attack with just a neutral nature! Also, Keldeo is one of the few great Fighting-types not to have to worry about the nasty physical halving of power from burns like Urshifu, Buzzwole, and Zap-G have to, as it's Specially focused.

So why Icy Wind instead of Substitute (a typical option alongside Calm Mind on Keldeo)? The first reason why is speed control. Pokemon that don't care (too much) about having their speed reduced (such as Melmetal, Blissey, Corviknight, etc.) don't like risking a hit from Secret Sword or a burn from Scald. In addition to this, nailing a scarfed switch in or nailing naturally fast Pokemon such as Dragapult and Torn-T with a super effective coverage move that always reduces speed is potentially game-winning.

252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 152-180 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 132-156 (44 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO

With Stealth Rock, that's an assured 2HKO on a switch-in (which is likely given that Icy Wind is such a niche option that no one expects). Alternatively, if you're not running hazards, you could run Life Orb for assured 2HKOs, and more damage all around. Icy Wind eases a lot of the burden that Keldeo faces in OU against typical matchups and makes switching to other Pokemon easier thanks to the Speed control. Ironically enough, this makes Keldeo an excellent Urshifu-RS partner, thanks to taking the matchup burden off of Urshifu's often lacking 97 base speed.

Now you're probably wondering, "alright, Icy Wind has some utility, but it's had that for ages; what else does it bring to the table?" Simple, Flip Turn. You have the choice whether or not you want to ease Speed issues with Icy Wind, attack full out with one of Keldeo's powerful STABS, or Flip Turn into something on a predicted switch (bait in Regieleki, amirite?) Having the option to choose your utility / crippling option will completely sap momentum from your opponent's play while boosting your own, allow you to play the previously mentioned mind games, and so on / so forth. Keldeo is a worthwhile addition to your team that's worth looking into.

Alakazam

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball
- Recover / Nasty Plot / Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball​

A physical move on Alakazam? No. UTILITY on Alakazam. If there's one thing that Alakazam can lay claim to despite its dwindling viability, it's the ability to force switches on critical threats (such as Toxapex, G-Zap, Urshifu-RS, etc.) and to hit neutral targets for a fair amount of damage with its numerous coverage options. Knock Off is something that I've found to be very useful in multiple situations for three key reasons. The first is that many common Pokemon that switch into Alakazam don't appreciate losing their item (such as Scizor) and generally don't expect Alakazam to carry a Physical move. The second is that Alakazam doesn't fear many repercussions that other Knock Off users do (and in some cases, welcomes them); worried about your Knock Off user getting slapped with a Flame Body burn? No problem. Alakazam is immune to Burn and Poison damage and prefers it because it keeps Alakazam from being paralyzed. Finally, Alakazam is one of three Pokemon to have the fantastic combination of Magic Guard and Knock Off (with the other two being Clefable and Reuniclus). Clefable, not having to run Knock Off means it's far more flexible and allows you to play mind games with your opponent. On the other end, Reuniclus is a much slower, less powerful Alakazam that focuses on bulk and sustainability with Regenerator (aka, it doesn't have time to use Knock Off unless it's under Trick Room).

Alakazam running Knock Off allows it to wear down opposing cores more efficiently by removing passive recovery, power boosts, consumable items, etc. Thanks to Alakazam's high Special Attack and Speed, it's pretty good at pressuring opposing Pokemon when necessary steps are taken. Psychic / Psyshock will be your main attacking move (depends on whether yeeting Blissey is more important to you than having a little extra-base power personally, I prefer Psychic). The last two slots are entirely up to your team's specific needs, although I prefer to run Shadow Ball and Focus Blast for coverage. Give it a try; you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how much more usable Alakazam is with a bit of unexpected utility.

 

[Red Raven]

War on stall? Sign me up for it. Let us conquer this playstyle so we can get on with our lives after a battle

Since the others have already mentioned some very strong anti stall mons, here is one that they missed and can threaten stall teams very hard


Blacephalon @ Lefties
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower

Many stall teams rely on Blissey to deal with special attackers. However, Blissey absolutely cannot touch this Blace set at all and at least one of its stabs will two shot stall's common unaware mons in Quagsire and Clefable. Toxapex can be an issue though so be careful about that. However, as long as you can chip it down, Blacephalon should be able to two shot it

 

[kosecant]

Let’s not forget one of stalls greatest threats: Zarude


Zarude @ Leftovers
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Power Whip
- Taunt
- Jungle Healing

this set just eats stall alive. Taunt + Jungle healing make it incredibly difficult for any stall mom to make progress against zarude, while it gets free bulk ups and becomes a dangerous threat. Power whip messes up quagsire and clefable, drain punch is useful against steel types, and darkest lariat helps break through bulk up corviknight.

 

[Ctann]

this is my favourite 1 Pokémon answer to stall, because Bisharp also functions well against non-stall teams. Combine with a taunt user and/or a teammate to threaten toxapex for the most fun.

- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Taunt / Other

In general the offensive knock off users are good… as they tend to have heavy hitting options

There’s also some unexpected breakers, like:


- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- U turn
- Roost Taunt

taunt koko might sound silly.. but against stall you don’t need roost too much, and if you have a high tempo team, you’re probably not going to use roost a lot in a regular game anyway.

just taunt the thing on a predicted non-attacking move, and then u turn out! Spam this over the game.

-

there is another Tapu that can make a stall breaking taunter. I learned about this one in Nat Dex because it’s a complete shutdown to mega Stall-eye


- Taunt
- Natures Madness
- Knock Off / Scald
- Moonblast

the knock off is less useful than scald against offensive teams, tho against stalling teams it allows Fini to have no reliable switch ins except toxapex and Ferrothorn at best. This is because the AV regenerators all hate losing their vests and potentially getting KOd before being able to KO themselves.

the 50% HP loss from nature’s madness helps put blissey, Ferrothorn, and clefable into KO range for partners. It’s also useful against regenerators with SR chip, as they come in next under 80%, making it possible for some of your offensive Pokémon to 2hko.

unfortunately this set Doesn’t do much to toxapex, tho at least if the Pex isn’t running poison jab, you can get it to sub 50% before switching into a teammate nice and safe from toxic

for the most fun, combine this Fini with offensive Tyranitar, and you’ll find there is no good stall answer.

—

The best answer to stall ever… would be simple mechanics changes from the game developers:

1. healing moves now have diminishing healing power when used repeatedly. For example: soft boiled will heal 50%, then 45% when used directly after, then 40% when used directly after.

2. The chance to score a critical hit increases slightly when a move is used repeatedly. For example: 4% crit, then 6% crit, then 8% crit, and so forth.

3. the item metronome now continues to boost the power of a move, even if the opponent used protect, or if the move misses.