Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[odt]

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 345-406 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 187-222 (72.2 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 309-364 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 211-249 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


i could be wrong but im not sure that 252 hp is worth it over 252 spdef which gives you a higher chance to beat kartana's most notable revenge killers.

I tried that route but being able to tank physical hits like a sdef ferrothorn puts has been way more useful for me. Heat Wave and Focus Blast are common options on those two too.
I usually knock after one SD if they have a Zapdos because a +2 grassy terrain Leaf Blade will finish it off unless they're really bulky and get two great rolls. Max HP Torn gets OHKO'd by knock at +4 if you manage two SDd and a boost, which tends to happen quite a lot because Torn will want to avoid switching in on a potential +2 LO Knock Off if it's the only SD Kart check left on the team.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Tyranitar is the [2nd] best choice band user in the tier.


Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

I feel like this mon has flown under a lot of people's radars, despite its power. It shares its dark typing with the best of them all in weavile as well as the mon who is praying that weavile gets sent to ubers more than anyone else in the game (<-poor guy) however it's dark stab isn't what makes it so good, hell even weavile is best in class largely because of it's ice stabs, getting priority and a move which someone probably had to get drug tested for when they decided to give it to an ice type with 120 base attack. However ttar's stabs are difficult to switch into for a very similar reason: crunch having that nasty 20% chance to drop physical defence which just means that the scarf fini you just switched in has a [less than] 1/5 chance of getting 2hko'd anyway, and stone edge is similar to triple axel in that it just drops shit left and right. Tyranitar only really needs it stabs to do well and this is shown in that even absolute maximum physical defence toxapex can't switch into either move safely:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Of course tyranitar has 2 other moveslots available to it which lets it hit it's one true nemesis in ferrothorn with odds hugely in its favour to ohko

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 328-388 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
and it ohkos landorus-therian

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 400-472 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and if you really want to you can bully buzzwole

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Aerial Ace vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

I have found ttar an immensely reliable mon on every team I have put him on and will happily say he is my favourite choice band user. It specs purely into attacking power and is the absolute best mon in this category: with only galarian zapdos really coming close to this level with even buzzwole walling neither of them because of course ttar has flying coverage to hit buzzwole why wouldn't he.

What are your favourite choice mons?
What choice mons do you feel are secretly insane?
What mons (aside from lele) do you think largely benefit from bluffing a choice item like ttar [technically] can with its bulky sr set?

 

[RedDiamond1024]

Tyranitar is the [2nd] best choice band user in the tier.


Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

I feel like this mon has flown under a lot of people's radars, despite its power. It shares its dark typing with the best of them all in weavile as well as the mon who is praying that weavile gets sent to ubers more than anyone else in the game (<-poor guy) however it's dark stab isn't what makes it so good, hell weavile is best in class largely because of it's ice stabs, getting priority and a move which someone probably had to get drug tested for when they decided to give it to an ice type with 120 base attack. However ttar's stabs are difficult to switch into for a very similar reason: crunch having that nasty 20% chance to drop physical defence which just means that the scarf fini you just switched in has a [less than] 1/5 chance of getting 2hko'd anyway, and stone edge is similar to triple axel in that it just drops shit left and right. Tyranitar only really needs it stabs to do well and this is shown in that even absolute maximum physical defence toxapex can't switch into either move safely:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Of course tyranitar has 2 other moveslots available to it which lets it hit it's one true nemesis in ferrothorn with odds hugely in its favour to ohko

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 328-388 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
and it ohkos landorus-therian

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 400-472 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and if you really want to you can bully buzzwole

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Aerial Ace vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

I have found ttar an immensely reliable mon on every team I have put him on and will happily say he is my favourite choice band user. It specs purely into attacking power and is the absolute best mon in this category: with only galarian zapdos really coming close to this level with even buzzwole walling neither of them because of course ttar has flying coverage to hit buzzwole why wouldn't he.

What are your favourite choice mons?
What choice mons do you feel are secretly insane?
What mons (aside from lele) do you think largely benefit from bluffing a choice item like ttar [technically] can with its bulky sr set?

First, what do you think is the best choice band user in the tier is?

Next, my favorite choice mons are cb zera, specs torn, and I've been liking cb kart a bit too.
I wouldn't say any choice mons are secretly insane, though do love running toxic on cb zera.
I haven't really used any bluffed choice mons tbh so I don't have any opinions to give on it.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

First, what do you think is the best choice band user in the tier is?

Next, my favorite choice mons are cb zera, specs torn, and I've been liking cb kart a bit too.
I wouldn't say any choice mons are secretly insane, though do love running toxic on cb zera.
I haven't really used any bluffed choice mons tbh so I don't have any opinions to give on it.

I said it in the post, weavile

 

[ZannaBianca]

Tyranitar is the [2nd] best choice band user in the tier.


Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

I feel like this mon has flown under a lot of people's radars, despite its power. It shares its dark typing with the best of them all in weavile as well as the mon who is praying that weavile gets sent to ubers more than anyone else in the game (<-poor guy) however it's dark stab isn't what makes it so good, hell weavile is best in class largely because of it's ice stabs, getting priority and a move which someone probably had to get drug tested for when they decided to give it to an ice type with 120 base attack. However ttar's stabs are difficult to switch into for a very similar reason: crunch having that nasty 20% chance to drop physical defence which just means that the scarf fini you just switched in has a [less than] 1/5 chance of getting 2hko'd anyway, and stone edge is similar to triple axel in that it just drops shit left and right. Tyranitar only really needs it stabs to do well and this is shown in that even absolute maximum physical defence toxapex can't switch into either move safely:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Of course tyranitar has 2 other moveslots available to it which lets it hit it's one true nemesis in ferrothorn with odds hugely in its favour to ohko

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 328-388 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
and it ohkos landorus-therian

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 400-472 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and if you really want to you can bully buzzwole

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Aerial Ace vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

I have found ttar an immensely reliable mon on every team I have put him on and will happily say he is my favourite choice band user. It specs purely into attacking power and is the absolute best mon in this category: with only galarian zapdos really coming close to this level with even buzzwole walling neither of them because of course ttar has flying coverage to hit buzzwole why wouldn't he.

What are your favourite choice mons?
What choice mons do you feel are secretly insane?
What mons (aside from lele) do you think largely benefit from bluffing a choice item like ttar [technically] can with its bulky sr set?

If not using Ice Punch, my favourite addition to this set has been Lash Out over Crunch. It doesnt' lose much power over it and has the same result of punishing Lando, with the bonus of also scaring out potential Defogs.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Lash Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 298-352 (93.4 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Lash Out vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 307-363 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

These are some of the calcs if Lash Out is active. One big problem however is that, with only 8pp, it's pretty easy to stall for some mons.

 

[Eeveeto]

To be fair, I prefer Assurance as a boosted under certain effects move over Lash Out. If Rocks are used, they need a purpose and this is a good one. Also, Lash Out only works vs Lando, Assurance works vs everything as long as you are able to keep the rocks on. Gapdos is therefore a good partner.

 

[ZannaBianca]

I feel Assurance is a very valid option but I personally prefer to use it as a potential secondary Dark stab if you're not willing to build your team around it, otherwise I think you would lose a bit too much power for my taste. Definitely would use it as primary stab however if building hazard stack offense.

 

[Xenocide88]

On the topic of choice band users there's actually quite a few viable users of it in the tier (I count at least a dozen actually in OU), but specifically I think Landorus and Dragapult are a bit underrated at the moment in regards to those sets.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

On the topic of choice band users there's actually quite a few viable users of it in the tier (I count at least a dozen actually in OU), but specifically I think Landorus and Dragapult are a bit underrated at the moment in regards to those sets.

I can agree with this, I've never built cb lando, but cb pult is quite fun. I've actually been using double edge as the fourth move slot since I paired it with scarf lele.

I said it in the post, weavile

srry, didn't see that

 

[Xenocide88]

I can agree with this, I've never built cb lando, but cb pult is quite fun. I've actually been using double edge as the fourth move slot since I paired it with scarf lele.

What move are you replacing? My usual slots for cb Pult are u turn darts sucker and phantom, but I find myself clicking phantom force the least.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

What move are you replacing? My usual slots for cb Pult are u turn darts sucker and phantom, but I find myself clicking phantom force the least.

I replace sucker punch with double edge
Something like this https://pokepast.es/aaf7cb3b4d49c44a

 

[blooclipse]

What move are you replacing? My usual slots for cb Pult are u turn darts sucker and phantom, but I find myself clicking phantom force the least.

when i use cb pult i usually use u-turn darts sucker steel wing

 

[Xenocide88]

when i use cb pult i usually use u-turn darts sucker steel wing

I could see that for the same reasons I often opt for Heavy Slam on Band Ttar: All my teams feel Clef weak. It's just a shame it's 70 base coming off Pults 120.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Clef seems to be rising a bit once again, with some (myself included so guilty as charged) thinking that it could approach S- rank or is at arguably that level. With that being said, what does everyone think the best Clef set is? I find that trick sticky barb is a lot of fun because basically nothing truly wants to deal with it, but CM is still a pretty solid wincon.

 

[Moyashi]

Clef seems to be rising a bit once again, with some (myself included so guilty as charged) thinking that it could approach S- rank or is at arguably that level. With that being said, what does everyone think the best Clef set is? I find that trick sticky barb is a lot of fun because basically nothing truly wants to deal with it, but CM is still a pretty solid wincon.

I think sticky barb is my favorite since there seems to be so many ways to use it. And it's generally effective, and like you said, nothing really likes dealing with it.

 

[Xenocide88]

I don't use Clef much (admittedly I hate it very much like I hate Blissey so will always avoid it in builder) but I'm going to offer a hot take that there isn't objectively a best Clef set and that's what let's it threaten to many things. I will say when I see it with rocks I breath a sigh of relief knowing it's not about to make me rip my hair out with calm mind.

 

[blooclipse]

I don't use Clef much (admittedly I hate it very much like I hate Blissey so will always avoid it in builder) but I'm going to offer a hot take that there isn't objectively a best Clef set and that's what let's it threaten to many things. I will say when I see it with rocks I breath a sigh of relief knowing it's not about to make me rip my hair out with calm mind.

im gonna be honest
thats not really a hot take
but also i agree with the sentiment. its such an annoying mon with calm mind as a wincon and it can set up multiple with its good bulk
it just doesnt seem like it should live so many hits but it just
does

 

[SunCooled]

Clef seems to be rising a bit once again, with some (myself included so guilty as charged) thinking that it could approach S- rank or is at arguably that level. With that being said, what does everyone think the best Clef set is? I find that trick sticky barb is a lot of fun because basically nothing truly wants to deal with it, but CM is still a pretty solid wincon.

Tricky barb is great rn with all the HO going around, or to just tag the wall that wants to switch into you.
CM is always good.
Aromaclef , as per usual, is team dependent but pretty consistent in my experience.
Physdef twave clef is mediocre, but I understand why people use it.
Wishport is mid with 'Bro as the premier pivot on most teams.
Stored power is a matchup fish and is generally bad.

Have seen some other sets that I generally dont like:
Screens clef
Copycat

 

[viivian]

What are your favourite choice mons?
What choice mons do you feel are secretly insane?
What mons (aside from lele) do you think largely benefit from bluffing a choice item like ttar [technically] can with its bulky sr set?

1) banded kart is funny bc he 2HKOes everything in the tier, def one of my favorite choice users

2) i’m ngl, specs tran is p insane under sun. eruption just OHKOes everything that switches in lmao. same for specs volc, especially since its specs set is equally nutty under rain as well lol

3) pult ig? like usually I’ll switch my blissey into pult expecting draco meteor or shadow ball, and instead it sets up dragon dance then bodies the rest of my team

 

[robofiend]

1) banded kart is funny bc he 2HKOes everything in the tier, def one of my favorite choice users

2) i’m ngl, specs tran is p insane under sun. eruption just OHKOes everything that switches in lmao. same for specs volc, especially since its specs set is equally nutty under rain as well lol

3) pult ig? like usually I’ll switch my blissey into pult expecting draco meteor or shadow ball, and instead it sets up dragon dance then bodies the rest of my team

specs tran is good in sun but it's slow and hard to get in at 100%. I kinda prefer Zard's speed tier if we're going to talk sun nukes.

 

[Sensory]

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport? It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time. All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters:

Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

 

[Smashburn]

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport? It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time. All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters:

Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

You would be one of the select few in my experience, yes. Teleport really isn't all too difficult to play around, though your team needs to be tailored in a balanced manner to make any form of momentum manageable. The basics of pivoting are a guideline; the way they are used here depicts Teleport as the loophole of momentum, which in reality is false because this logic does not account for other situational factors. Considering its distribution, if you're having trouble I think the issue lies less in the move itself and more in an issue of skill and teambuilding. Having the slowest priority in any given turn means you run the risk of being punished by prediction, which runs a variety of ways. Any game is going to come down to prediction and preparedness (of which you cannot always account for), and Teleport, while somewhat controversial, is no different from other pivoting moves in that it has both its advantages and drawbacks, in addition to a limited range of Pokemon which can use it.

The move itself and its distribution aren't entirely the issue, try reviewing your gameplay and teambuilding skills if you are seriously struggling with it.

 

[Moyashi]

Am I the only one with trouble with teleport? It just feel wrong and uncompetitive as a move. It really throws off the balance of pivoting.
When someone uses it against me I always feel a step behind no matter the play I do and when I use it against someone teleporting out it the most play 90% of the time. All forms of pivots have their advantages and counters:

Switching out: countered by double switch or predicts.
Quick turn/voltswi : needs a move slots,contact/ground types counter it.
Staying in: countered by opponent staying in, coutners double switch tho.

Teleport is just like any slow pivot, aside from being the slowest pivot available. There has been slow uturn, volt switch and the like uses across the generations. Its not hard to punish especially if the opponent becomes too comfortable and over reliant on it.

 

[Smashburn]

Teleport alone is fine. The sequence of fast pivot, slow pivot, breaker is entirely skilless and puts all the risk on the opponent. The reason this play is so strong in this generation is:

1. All fast pivots go boots and don't get chipped much, if at all
2. The pink blobs and slow regenerator stuff picked up teleport, so now they take very little damage for coming in
3. The breakers get stronger every generation (especially in tandem with the future sight+teleport aid), and problematically can also be the fast pivots themselves

I don't think any of this is necessarily a "problem", but I don't find it a very fun way to play because of how similarly games progress.

I hope that gen 9 brings a greatly diminished distribution of U-Turn. In the meantime, contract punish is the way to go -- it's a great time to run multiple rocky helmet pokemon on a team. Gastrodon + Ferrothorn + cleric has been a great core for me

U-Turn distribution doesn't strike me as the foremost part of this trend. I don't think it is necessarily just the result of fast pivots in general either, really. What made the strategy so predominant was FuturePort in tandem with the significant benefits Regenerator has offered both Slowbro and Slowking with their new tools. The formula of this pivot core further enabled safe momentum and kept teams from being too stagnant, a strategy which has been rather infectious as far as its influence has gone-- for good reason. U-Turn distribution and fast pivots doesn't mean much if the cornerstone of the strategy goes untouched. Though, unfortunately, Game Freak and friends have balanced more off of doubles recently and Regenerator would be the last of their worries right now.

 

[Xenocide88]

U-Turn distribution doesn't strike me as the foremost part of this trend. I don't think it is necessarily just the result of fast pivots in general either, really. What made the strategy so predominant was FuturePort in tandem with the significant benefits Regenerator has offered both Slowbro and Slowking with their new tools. The formula of this pivot core further enabled safe momentum and kept teams from being too stagnant, a strategy which has been rather infectious as far as its influence has gone-- for good reason. U-Turn distribution and fast pivots doesn't mean much if the cornerstone of the strategy goes untouched. Though, unfortunately, Game Freak and friends have balanced more off of doubles recently and Regenerator would be the last of their worries right now.

I'd agree with this. Slowbro/King abuse Teleport pretty hard because they have Future Sight forcing progress, and Regenerator negating their opponents progress. On top of that they get Slack Off to properly wall, and a plethora of coverage moves. They are perfectly tuned to be the Teleport poster children and make it appear more powerful than other pivoting options, despite other pivoting options having merits absent with Teleport that give them all viability. Clear out the ground mon and suddenly Tapu Koko is tearing teams apart with Volt Switch. U-turns larger distribution means a number of mons have sets where they act as pivots or take up other roles, requiring better prediction and set scouting for these mons. Flip turn provides a strong STAB option for its recipients, making it a phenomenal chip tool, but it's limited distribution makes it much easier to predict. Eject Button lets you both pivot and counter contact pivot options for a one time use. They all have strong merits is what I'm trying to say, and Teleport isn't uncompetitive. Slowbro just happens to be an overtuned mon with a lot of different strengths, access to Teleport just being one of them. It exists at a time where it can perfectly slot onto a lot of bulky offense configurations and give them an almost stallesque way of sequencing turns and thus a lot of consistency.