Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Timing dynamaxing correctly is skillful play. Predicting dynamaxing and doing correct counterplay is a skillful play as well. Indeed, it is part of the game to predict correctly, and predicting dynamaxing is the very demonstration of it.
Sure, but it's quite skewed. The power level of Dynamax far exceeds the power level of defensive counterplay options. The person who clicks the dynamax button is almost always the one with the advantage, even if their move was predicted.

For what it's worth, I don't think people would dislike dynamax if it was easier to play around and defend against.
 
Hey there! Tbh Duraludon's abilities are relatively useless. I just have Stalwart there so that Thunderbolt doesn't get absorbed by Pokemon with various abilities that absorb Electric moves.
Stalwart won't prevent that from happening. It only prevents moves from being redirected in doubles. Even in doubles, purposefully using Thunderbolt on a Lightning Rod mon will result in the Thunderbolt being absorbed. Light Metal is probably the best ability for Duraludon, to lower the base power of incoming Low Kicks from 60 to 40, though if Heat Crash starts being popular on things light enough for an extra 88.2 pounds to make a difference, then Heavy Metal could also be worth using.
 
Stalwart won't prevent that from happening. It only prevents moves from being redirected in doubles. Even in doubles, purposefully using Thunderbolt on a Lightning Rod mon will result in the Thunderbolt being absorbed. Light Metal is probably the best ability for Duraludon, to lower the base power of incoming Low Kicks from 60 to 40, though if Heat Crash starts being popular on things light enough for an extra 88.2 pounds to make a difference, then Heavy Metal could also be worth using.
Is it really only in Doubles? The ability description says nothing about that.
"Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon's Abilities and moves that draw in moves."

If it is only in doubles you're right, but I haven't seen any indication of that.
 
Is it really only in Doubles? The ability description says nothing about that.
"Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon's Abilities and moves that draw in moves."

If it is only in doubles you're right, but I haven't seen any indication of that.
It’s the same description as Intellion’s Snipe Shot, which does not ignore Water Absorb/Storm Drain.

It just ignores the redirection.
 
bro do you even know what GMax is? seriously all of your posts have been severely foolish so I’m asking? everything you said was wrong other than 1a. Jesus Christ dude it's like you don't even play the game or know what youre talking about.

From the opponents point of view you do not know which mons are gonna gigantimax, people can carry multiple, there is no sign. secondly, and this is the most severely egregious of your points, what the hell do you think gigantimax is? It's just a. cosmetic difference most of the time, and they can and do use other dynamax moves. In fact they don't have to use the specialized z moves. I don't know what brought you to think otherwise. like even in your own posts, a lot of the gigantimax mons can and do use "Max Airstream/Knuckle or Max Geyser". like what the hell dude. COME ON, really sick of y'all.
Firstly, rude and unprofessional.

Secondly, “b-but you can carry multiple” doesn’t work since that is very poor team building practice. It’s not like Dynamaxing were you can slap it on a couple sweepers in your team and call it a day. Most of the Gigantamax Pokemon are useless shitmons, so if you have multiple G-max Pokemon, you better hope that they are actually useful outside of those 3 turns.
It’s like bringing multiple Pokemon with Mega Stones on your team or having multiple Z-Crystals.
Yes, you can have them, but that’s fucking stupid outside of Battle Spots and VGC.

Thirdly, yes, you can use the non-exclusive max moves, but the only abuser that could really use it is Giganta-Gengar.
Charizard is too weak to just M-Airstream and lacks sun support.
Kingler loses M-Geyser
Garbodor is physically based most of the time and is too slow, which Toxricity also faces.
Machamp loses M-Knuckle and would be way too slow.
ect.
Even if there were more that could really abuse it like Gyarados or Hawlucha, you could treat them like Megas and ban individual ones.

Please think before you post and talk shit to people.
 
1575086873107.png

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Wish
- Protect

Been getting decent utility out of this mon as of late. It's one of the more reliable defensive checks to both Galarian Darm and Dracovish (the latter thanks to water absorb and a lack of any dark or psychic weaknesses), and it's also solid at handling other common physical threats like Excadrill, Tyranitar, and Barraskewda. Wish+Protect is fantastic for stalling out Dynamaxes and Wish passing is also really useful and underrated at the moment. The limited distribution of Toxic is kinda both a curse and a blessing since it misses out on catching momentum versus a lot of its switch-ins, but it also doesn't have to worry as much about being toxiced itself. Haze can be slashed out for Yawn or Ice Beam if said loss of momentum is getting to you pls unban drypass.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
This thread has officially become exhausting to read through. Despite multiple desperate attempts to shift the conversation somewhere, freaking anywhere else, that hasn't stopped the near-total devolution of this thread into several petty back-and-forths over Dynamax. I applaud users like BlackMalachite trying to actually talk about more interesting things like underrated Pokemon and sets, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the useless, repetitive """"discussions"""" the mere existence of Dynamax has bred. Clearly neither side has anything to add anymore to the topic, so now they've resorted to arguing semantics, name-calling and suggesting incredibly niche "counter play" measures like Dig and Dive. Now, the likely response to my concerns is that Dynamax is just that centralizing of a mechanic, that it ultimately forces all conversations back to it due to how much it alters the landscape. And y'know what? You're totally right, Dynamax is a meta-defining force that has to be currently considered at all times when building and playing. But if it really is that bad to where we can't focus on or discuss anything else (which I agree it is) while there truly is nothing new to add to the dialogue surrounding whether it should be banned or not, then we might as well lock the thread because forget several more months or years of this shit in the unholy scenario where Dynamax somehow stays, I don't think I can bear seeing OU metagame discussion reduced to this level for even another week.

Like so, so many others, the overwhelming majority even, I am ready for Dynamax to finally be suspected and deleted from this meta. And among everything else, I can't wait for it to go so we can finally close this dark chapter of this generation of OU's lifespan and move the fuck on.
 

MattL

I have discovered a truly remarkable CT which this box is t-
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Note: Not sure if this is the right place to post/ask this (or if its even allowed) so feel free to delete it you see fit.

I haven't played competitively since the tail end of 6th gen so I won't comment on current META until I get more SwSh experience under my belt. However, there a question for which I've yet to learn an answer: What's the primary reason for sticking to cart so strongly? My first guess is fear that daddy GF won't like it.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that Smogon literally make its own Pokemon-esque game (which certainly could be done given the coding experience is already present on PKMN Showdown) but the ability to mod the game to be more competitive sound like it has no real drawback outside of possibly alienating casual players. It seems as though going through the cluster-fuck that is Pokemon as a competitive game is something which can be sidestepped, or at least partially assuaged, by implementing more competitively-minded mods to the game.
This is a fair question given all the discussion and I know a lot of people who don't even have accounts lurk this thread, so for general knowledge purposes I'll answer it, and it also covers why we're not going to do things such as "just make it so max moves don't have secondary effects" or "make it so Dynamax only lasts 1 turn". However, this gets more into general policy rather than OU metagame discussion so it's probably best that I just respond to this and we all leave it at that (rather than starting a whole new discussion and derailing everything).

I did not make this tiering policy nor does this post reflect official decisions, but here is what I am almost certain is the reason.

It's not because GF won't like it. Smogon isn't the official Nintendo metagame, never claimed to be, and never will claim to be. Smogon also does not require anyone to use its rules (unless you're playing on Showdown main, which is Smogon's official simulator, or Smogtours, etc.). It's not mainly about alienating casual players. There is some aspect of that insofar as it'd be ideal for the ruleset not to be insanely and unnecessarily complicated, but that's not the main reason. The goal of Smogon is to take the Pokemon franchise we all know and love and apply rules to it in order to make the game more competitively viable by creating a more balanced metagame in which player skill is a larger factor in determining the outcome of games.

Again, Showdown is a simulator. The intention is to simulate what is possible in the Pokemon game (aside from stuff like Hackmons but that's unrelated to the point of OU and the other official tiers). If an OU battle is happening, then that battle would be possible to have on the cartridge, because Showdown is just simulating actual Pokemon gameplay. If I said "Zacian-Crowned is too broken and we should make its base Attack 150 instead of 170", I wouldn't be able to do that on the cartridge. But if I were to say "for the purposes of competitive balance, let us create a tier called Ubers which contains Pokemon that you aren't allowed use in OU, and I am placing Zacian in Ubers", then you would be able to play an OU battle on the cartridge by you and your opponent simply agreeing to not bring Zacian.

I know I haven't answered your question yet of why we want to simulate what's possible on the cartridge. If you wanted to balance the metagame in ways that were not possible on the cartridge, then that opens up an impossibly complicated and convoluted can of worms. Go back to the example of Zacian's base Attack. If you wanted to make it balanced, what would you change its stats to? 150? 140? Take away Play Rough from its movepool? Or what if you wanted to make an otherwise unviable Pokemon viable for diversity purposes? Let's take Delcatty and increases all of its base stats by 30 and give it Boomburst. Or should you only increase its Special Attack stat by 25? Boomburst is too strong actually, let's make it 130 power. Why should it be 130, why not 120? I hope you see the problem here. This is so impossibly complicated with no right answer that it's definitely not worth trying to do for the official tiers. The current system is much better, which is to simulate actual possible Pokemon gameplay and then agreeing to remove elements which make it less competitive.

There are Other Metagames and Pet Mods which achieve a lot of common suggestions to modify the game in ways that aren't possible in the actual game. Want to make it so there's less luck in Pokemon? That metagame existed - it was called Haxmons. Want to make it so less viable Pokemon are given higher base stats to become more viable? That's the metagame called Tier Shift. Want to introduce new Pokemon that don't even exist? That's what CAP (Create A Pokemon) does. But as far as the official Smogon tiers (OU, etc.) go, we should stick with the current system.

Again, it's best that we leave it at that and I don't think it'd be wise to reply to this post to start a discussion about this, but I figured I would explain this as the concepts are relevant to what a good number of people are wondering. Alright, let's end it there.

_________________________________________

Related to the OU metagame, this was brought up before, but I am inclined to believe that extremely high Ditto usage could be seen as an indicator of an unhealthy metagame. In ORAS OU for example, there were a lot of offensive threats, but there were also enough Pokemon with defensive capabilites in order for you to be able to build teams that wouldn't get steamrolled by a myriad of insane offensive Pokemon. But in a metagame like this, a lot of people probably feel that there are way too many things with way too much offensive potential (a lot of which is caused by Dynamax) that the only way to avoid being swept on a regular basis (even though Dynamax has defensive merit as well) is to bring Ditto, kind of as a catch-all last resort. I think Ditto's place in previous metagames was fine in that it was an option you could use, but it was nowhere near mandatory. If Ditto actually becomes OU by usage (which seems like a very real possibility), I might take that as a bit of a red flag.
 
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Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Wish
- Protect

Been getting decent utility out of this mon as of late. It's one of the more reliable defensive checks to both Galarian Darm and Dracovish (the latter thanks to water absorb and a lack of any dark or psychic weaknesses), and it's also solid at handling other common physical threats like Excadrill, Tyranitar, and Barraskewda. Wish+Protect is fantastic for stalling out Dynamaxes and Wish passing is also really useful and underrated at the moment. The limited distribution of Toxic is kinda both a curse and a blessing since it misses out on catching momentum versus a lot of its switch-ins, but it also doesn't have to worry as much about being toxiced itself. Haze can be slashed out for Yawn or Ice Beam if said loss of momentum is getting to you pls unban drypass.
I'd also like to give a shout out to Espeon as a Wish Passer.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Future Sight
- Wish
- Protect

Magic Bounce is a great ability. Espeon has been a huge benefit in walling Toxapex and Ferrothorn (without Knock Off). I chose Future Sight as it is great against a predicted switch and forces the opponent to keep it in mind. I can't count the times that it is forgotten and gets a clean KO while acting as a cleric. If needed Espeon can also use Future Sight > Wish > Dyna Max Future Sight to set Psychic terrain and power through some checks. I like to pair Espeon with Cinderace and Seismitoad for Ferro/Rain/Dracovish counter. The lack of pursuit and knock off allows Espeon to be less of a liability.

Espeon does not compete with Hatterene since Espeon's primary job is to act as a cleric/hazard control.

The con of running espeon over vaporeon is the lesser hp stat.
 
I'd like to share a mon that I've been using on my attempt to create a stall team and one that I think could work well for bulky balance teams as well: Appletun (also sorry for ripping off your format BlackMalachite, I just think it works really well)

250px-842Appletun.png
Appletun
Type: Grass/ Dragon
Abilities: Rippen / Gluttony / Thick Fat
Stats:
HP: 110
Attack: 85
Defense: 80
Special Attack: 100
Special Defense: 80
Speed: 30​

While I'll be the first to admit that bulky teams are not great in this dynamax infested metagame (especially with Flying moves being everywhere), I still think Appleton has some uses while combined with other bulky mons like Toxapex and Galarian Corsola. The big question that needs to be asked about Appleton is why it should be used over the generally more popular and bulkier Ferrothorn, and the main reasons for that are a combination of its typing and the ability Thick Fat along with reliable recovery.

Appletun @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid / Giga Drain
- Recover
- Leech Seed
- Protect

This is the stall set that I've been trying to make work and I think its doing pretty well for the role of countering some of the terrifying physical threats that are dominating the meta right now, such as Dracovish and Excadrill. Apple Acid is a good grass move that continues to increase in damage due to its 100% chance to lower the targets Sp Def, and Giga Drain is a good alternative if you wish to regain more health while still dealing damage. Recover is the key move on this set for the guaranteed 50% health that you get back and the main reason Appletun has a niche over Ferrothorn. The final two moves are more filler than anything, either Giga Drain or Apple Acid are good options depending on which move you chose at the start, and Substitute is a decent option due to the massive amounts of health you can recover in a turn. Appletun also gets Screens if you want it to play a more supportive role, however I prefer Leech Seed and Protect as those can help increase the pressure on the opposing mon and increase your HP.

Some calcs going over some of the best physical attackers in the tier (Hawlucha and Dragapult are not included because they clearly beat Appletun)
Excadrill:
252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun: 112-133 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- 19.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tyranitar:
252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Appletun: 140-168 (33 - 39.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Appletun: 348-412 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Not sure if Ttar runs Ice Punch this gen but figured I'd rather show worst case scenario

Dracovish:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun in Rain: 166-195 (39.1 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This calc accounts for the doubling of Fishious Rends damage on slower targets

Gyarados:
+3 252 Atk Gyarados Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun: 858-1010 (202.3 - 238.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun: 110-129 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Max Airstream calc is notable because if you protect Appletun can live a +3 Max Airstream and a +3 Earthquake

Barraskewda:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Appletun: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Galarian Darmanitan:
252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Appletun: 244-292 (57.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Appletun: 58-69 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
These calcs were done with the PS damage calc and I am not certain Gorilla Tactics is properly implemented on there right now, so these calcs may be subject to change

tl:dr Appletun is a unique alternative to Ferrothorn that gives up hazards and an overall better typing for reliable recovery and the ability to beat some physical attackers such as Exacdrill and Tyranitar. Try out the appley boi sometime
 
Conkeldurr has proven a useful Hatterene lure assuming no TR or Reflect: Conk outspeeds, Facade deals 87.1 - 102.5% to 252 HP Modest Hatterene (93.8% OHKO rate after SR), and should she switch into Drain Punch the 17.2 - 20.4% puts her well into KO range. However, if it's a max Def Hatterene like I was running at the start of the meta and you don't catch her on the switch with Facade, then you die! What a thrill.

Losing Knock Off sucks big time considering Machamp gets Knock Off and Darkest Lariat, but Conk's Brutal Swing still OHKOs Gengar and deals 91.4 - 107.8% to offensive Dragapult (OHKO guaranteed with SR).

Fuck G-Corsola though.
 
So has anyone else noticed how hard it is to find good special attackers in this meta? Or is this just a me problem?

It feels like 2 out of every three teams I face have Dragapult. Personally, I don't think Dragapult is as good as its usage rate indicates. (Although, I get that some are physical or mixed sets as well.) The best statistical special attackers in Sword and Shield are all slow, including Vikavolt, Cursola, Hatarene, and Drampa. It feels especially bad before Inteleon gets Sniper and becomes more useful. Outside of Dragapult and the Dynamax reliant Charizard, the only fast (like over 100 speed and powerful) and good special attackers I found that seem adequate are Gengar, Ribombee (only with Quiver Dance) and possibly Espeon abusing some sort of Psychic Terrain shenanigans. I tried Jolteon but it's move pool is somehow even worse than it was before. Maybe Salazzle or Heliolisk could be decent? Noivern and Galvantula are mostly underpowered and feel outclassed by other pokemon to me.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have one main special attacker on my team. Yet I have 3 physical attackers. And for my defenses, I have more in the way of countering physical attackers than special attackers. It's still early in the meta and I'm getting used to it. However, I have a feeling it will be defined around physical attackers because there seems to be way more viable ones than special attackers.

And for my two sense on Dynamax, has anyone else tried Yawn or Trick Room to counter M-Airstream nonsense? Just a thought.
 
So has anyone else noticed how hard it is to find good special attackers in this meta? Or is this just a me problem?

Gengar. Hydreigon. Clefable. Indeedee (give more chances to this Mon, and not only Choiced, CM + Colbur Berry is good!), Mew (still learns Nasty Plot), Specs Pelipper, NP Rotoms ( like, every single form has a niche, lol), Toxtricity, Aegislash, Polteageist, Vanilluxe. More niche options include Sigilyph, Glaceon, Sylveon, Espeon, Heliolisk, some Chlorophile/Swift Swim users, Roserade, Salazzle, Ninetales, Frostmoth, Charizard, etc.

I think we have enough good Special Attackers and there will be more when Dynamax gets banned at last. Just think outside the box and cover them well.
 
So I'll preface my comment with I don't have time to play tons of Showdown (I'm a new dad!), but I've been following along with what's going on, watching others, as well as taking some experience with other competitive games into account to lay out my premise: Neither side is convincing, please give me data.

Okay well bold of me to attack both sides, I know. Hear me out though. My first impression reading/watching was "how bad could it be," along with the typical thought of defensive merit and "S&S has been out for barely double digit days." All of those I currently think are still valid points, but we'll get to that. After I started playing a few games, my reaction was "G/D-maxing is absolutely busted." Because it is, and I currently think that is still a valid point. And I don't hold those two opinions as contradictory.

My main problem with the discussion that has taken over is: bruh it sounds like a lot of yawl are butthurt, on both sides.

I play a lot of TCGs - there's a point to this stick with me - and the common theme among those bans are both "competitive diversity" - which I feel is pretty explanatory - and "fun." Who determines what is fun has always been something that bothered me. However, from playing Showdown for a long time, it seems to be one of the few games where that factor doesn't exist when determining bans (for better or for worse, I don't know the answer to that). Now, I'd like to look at both of these points, if you'll indulge me. Otherwise, you can skip this next spoiler sections and get to the end of this post.

I think that this is common sense, but I'll go over it. Simply put, how many different X (Pokemon, TCG Cards, Archetypes suchs as Hyper Offense or Stall, etc) are relevant in Y meta. This is a really simple equation for us: look at the metashare per pokemon (percentage played vs the field) of the top of the meta (ie a certain elo, whatever that elo may be I don't have the answer, but probably want to hover around a large enough range of players that you get an accurate picture of the whole metagame and not just the very top tier metagame so lets say the elo that the top 15% of players occupy). If there is a HUGE/SUBSTANTIAL/ETC dropoff in the playability of the (for example) #11-20th most played vs the #1-10th most played, that's a sign of an diversity-lacking meta. Which is both not fun and not competitive, because it becomes a coin toss (typically). So, to clarify why I wrote this out: in order to justify rhetoric that would ban G/D-maxing, the meta would have to be PROVEN centralised (ie lacking diversity), and there's an easy way to find that out, which I have put forward above.

I absolutely feel compelled to write about fun in terms of a ban in a strictly competitive game. Because we all want to have fun. And I can say, as I have said before about other games, that the act of being competitive is the most fun for me. So, like, I understand all the talk around wanting to ban G/D-maxing, but that doesn't mean "fun" doesn't factor into the equation; if it didn't, we wouldn't be here, because it would be no fun. G/D-maxing - as it currently exists - is unfun. Plain and simple. It's not fun having to be on the backfoot, trying to salvage a 5-2 beating into something resembling a fair 6v6 singles fight. It's not fun having moves that literally ignore parts of the game - like Protect. However, to me, it is fun trying to solve a puzzle - aka the current meta. To me, it is fun to work within the confines of the competitive meta GF has given us, G/D-max included. To me, it is fun trying new teams to see what works because the game is like 20 days old. Understand that what is fun to someone may not be fun to someone else. I love playing Stall and the PU format, because both are fun to me. I recognise that other people may not find playing Stall strats or playing the PU format fun. And that is okay. What is not okay is when bans are not vetted well enough. In other competitive mediums, it has been frustrating to have the vocal minority shape what is and what isn't banned in a meta. But there is an easy way to tell what is and what isn't the minority being so vocal about this. So, I write this out to say: in order to benefit the rhetoric that would ban G/D-maxing, it would have to be PROVEN to be a detriment to the fun/well-being/etc of the majority of players, of which a simple interactive poll would likely help provide said information.

In my estimation, looking at the facts will take away the emotion of all of this, but that does not mean we have to be emotionless. We can act on our emotions to make a point (in this case, either pro-Max or anti-Max). The fact that this is truly the first situation of it's kind to come up in Smogon makes this an interesting case. Rain, Mega, Z-Moves: none of the emotions were this high, because there were easy solutions. There are no easy solutions here; there is only it exists or it doesn't, which is a very different topic that the most polarising themes of generation's past. And I don't leave you with a ban or stay answer, so if you're expecting one, I apologise now. But I do want to leave you with this:

From all the conversation I've gathered here, the only way that there will be peace on this issue is to conduct a formal inquiry (suspect test) and then produce the detailed numbers on how G/D-maxing effects competitive diversity, supplemented by the community's acceptance/rejection of the generation defining shtick, and that suspect should start immediately. However, I personally do not think that a decision should be reached - one way or another - before 2020, as the game's initial premier competitive strategies have the opportunity to be challenged over the next month, as our knowledge on the meta along with the tweaking of the code (which I believe I read is not quite 100% accurate yet so the back end is just as in flux as our understanding of the topic; however if this has been fixed please correct me) effecting such strategies remains a potential untapped. I think a long, deep dive into what is making up the meta is key to understanding the topic and separating fact from emotion, both having separate merits yet different weight.
 
I'm rather new to competitive Pokemon, despite playing the games since Gen 1. So forgive me for this rather beginner level question, but if Dynamax is banned from OU, it will still be available in Uber, right?

I say this because I noticed one of the main arguments to keeping dynamax is it is a central feature of the game and the generation. Dynamax makes a huge number of Pokemon uber-level in power, being so powerful they withstand super effective hits while setting up and wiping everything out. So if a Pokemon is uber-level in power, they should only be playable in uber.

Uber this generation is only 3 Pokemon right now. It's a banlist rather than the playable tier that it became in national dex. Banning dynamax from OU means uber becomes the tier where you can dynamax. This is less of a problem here in part because the current uber trio can't dynamax in their own right and even have specific moves designed to take down dynamax mons. Dynamaxing your opponents dynamax as a counter measure is checking broken with broken, which is kind of the motto of uber.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking of uber as a tier. I'm only bringing this up because this is what made me, a fairly casual Pokemon player, OK with the idea of banning dynamax. There's still a competitive ladder format where you can play it but it's so wildly brokenly strong that most tournaments just decided to not use it.

(The other part that made me OK with banning dynamax is the idea of what lower tiers were supposed to do when Ditto, the current catch-all bandaid to dynamax, is stuck in OU)
 
Hey there everyone. I'm gonna try and detract from the Dynamax discussion again because this thread is starting to actively hurt my brain and I'm sick of seeing posts about the same bullshit. Let's talk about a Pokemon that got new life breathed into it in Gen 8, Shedinja.

Shedinja

Abilities: Wonder Guard
Stats:
HP: 1
Attack: 90
Defense: 45
Special Attack: 30
Special Defense: 30
Speed: 40​

Need something that doesn't worry about Choiced Dracovish's Fishious Rend? Try Shedinja.
Need something that doesn't worry about Choiced Galarian Darmanitan's Icicle Crash? Try Shedinja
Need something that can halt a Ditto's Imposter'd reign? Try Shedinja.
Need something to stalwart a boosted sweeper in a multitude of types? Try Shedinja.
Need something that is unexpected and most of the time people don't prepare for? Try Shedinja.
Need something that can stop a Dynamax'd Pokemon without the coverage to nuke it? Try Shedinja

For those who don't know how Shedinja works, its unique ability Wonder Guard means that only Super Effective moves, hazard damage, weather, and status can kill it. Now you're probably thinking (wow, it can still get hit by all that other stuff, why bother using it outside of Ubers [where in previous generations it has had a specific niche])? It's simple. Heavy-Duty Boots was introduced, meaning Shedinja doesn't have to worry about hazards at all unless it gets Tricked / Switcheroo'd. Along with this, Pursuit is no longer a thing and Knock Off is almost non-existent in Generation 8.

Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Leech Life
- Shadow Sneak

This set can be an absolute win-con for you late game as Shedinja can be an unlikely cleaner. Simply bring in Shedinja on a predicted boosting move / Ditto spam / Pokemon that you're sure doesn't have coverage that can kill Shedinja (Flying, Rock, Fire, Ghost, Dark type attacks), and proceed to watch them flail helplessly against you or switch out. You can then use Will-O-Wisp to cripple a predicted switch in, or use one of your attacking moves to take something out. A lot of times people underestimate Shedinja's power as well and will switch in Pokemon like Dragapult thinking they can outspeed and deal with it. It's not a safe switch in.

252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 144-170 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO (The common Specs set, assured 2HKO with hazard support)

Shedinja can't be slapped willy nilly on any team, I'm sure you all know that. But the meta is kind to it right now, and (particularly on rain teams) it can provide crucial support against most of the metagame. It handles very specific threats that are EVERYWHERE right now, and should be considered as an option to deal with those threats.
here's the thing: the brainless ttar/excadrill core is everywhere. sand is one of the most used weathers rn. ttar basically comes in for free and sets up the sand, which is going to be difficult to play around with a shedinja. excadrill sets up it's own sand but chances are you're gonna get burned by this but w/e it still dies. as far as i know this thing doesnt even have a niche to do anything and its pretty shit lol.

also, here's the thing: dynamax. if you're shedinja and you come in on darm or dracovish or shit like that, they're locked into icicle crash or fishious rend, you're all happy "im gonna force this thing out!" nope. it can just dynamax, double its hp, AND switch up its moves and then you're like "oh shit now what " and you basically have to sac a couple mons every time it comes out.

5camp yes you can still dynamax in ubers iirc
 
while there's a huge issue with the dynamax suspect (why are we wasting time seriously what the fuck dudes) why is moody unbanned ? like who thought that was a good idea and thought that glalie or the octopus weren't going to abuse? I seriously want to know who thought that was a good idea on the council. like this is getting famous on the ladder but like I had a game that was similar to this https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8ou-1019696317

like do the people who make these decisions actually play the ladder?
 
So has anyone else noticed how hard it is to find good special attackers in this meta? Or is this just a me problem?

It feels like 2 out of every three teams I face have Dragapult. Personally, I don't think Dragapult is as good as its usage rate indicates. (Although, I get that some are physical or mixed sets as well.) The best statistical special attackers in Sword and Shield are all slow, including Vikavolt, Cursola, Hatarene, and Drampa. It feels especially bad before Inteleon gets Sniper and becomes more useful. Outside of Dragapult and the Dynamax reliant Charizard, the only fast (like over 100 speed and powerful) and good special attackers I found that seem adequate are Gengar, Ribombee (only with Quiver Dance) and possibly Espeon abusing some sort of Psychic Terrain shenanigans. I tried Jolteon but it's move pool is somehow even worse than it was before. Maybe Salazzle or Heliolisk could be decent? Noivern and Galvantula are mostly underpowered and feel outclassed by other pokemon to me.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have one main special attacker on my team. Yet I have 3 physical attackers. And for my defenses, I have more in the way of countering physical attackers than special attackers. It's still early in the meta and I'm getting used to it. However, I have a feeling it will be defined around physical attackers because there seems to be way more viable ones than special attackers.

And for my two sense on Dynamax, has anyone else tried Yawn or Trick Room to counter M-Airstream nonsense? Just a thought.
Oh my God, I thought I was the only one who felt this way. While there are still some special attackers ( Hatterene, Rotom-W, Togekiss), the physical attackers far overpower and quite frankly overwhelm the meta right now( G-Darm, Exca, Lucha, Gyara, Dracovish, to name a few)
 
while there's a huge issue with the dynamax suspect (why are we wasting time seriously what the fuck dudes) why is moody unbanned ? like who thought that was a good idea and thought that glalie or the octopus weren't going to abuse? I seriously want to know who thought that was a good idea on the council. like this is getting famous on the ladder but like I had a game that was similar to this https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8ou-1019696317

like do the people who make these decisions actually play the ladder?
Going off what I know, I'd say it was unbanned because Moody was nerfed on-cartridge as to not affect evasion or accuracy. It was an ability banned because it could boost evasion, and now that it doesn't, it was unbanned.
 

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while there's a huge issue with the dynamax suspect (why are we wasting time seriously what the fuck dudes) why is moody unbanned ? like who thought that was a good idea and thought that glalie or the octopus weren't going to abuse? I seriously want to know who thought that was a good idea on the council. like this is getting famous on the ladder but like I had a game that was similar to this https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8ou-1019696317

like do the people who make these decisions actually play the ladder?
It was unbanned because what was arguably broken about it at the time (Evasion modification) was removed and Smeargle was also out of the picture. I [personally] think it deserved a fair trial regardless since its core problem mechanic was removed (and obviously I am not a council member nor did any council member reach out to give me an earful for weighing either way). Can it still be abused? As I said before there might be some problems especially with Dynamax available. It can still be banned again too. Usually at the start of the generation we give a lot of things a fair trial / second chance. This is how we had Pokemon like Protean Greninja last generation as an example and Hoopa-Unbound when both were banned in Generation 6.
 
This is like saying we should allow double team and swagger if we're using spinarak in OU, whats the point of making restrictions if they don't affect the viability and it causes too much confusion.
Bad comparison

Double team and swagger are uncompetitive for different reasons than Dynamax

Dynamax allow setup sweepers to steamroll their opponent with a snowball effect, there are plenty of pokemon that wold benefit for Dynamax (Pokemon that cannot stup for themself or lack power or bulk)
 
I've been playing in the top 50/100 the whole day, the most annoying thing is people trying to stall not dynamax.

I hope dynamax stays because it prevents the game from going 200 turns every battle because some no skill braindead noob wants to win with finishing your PP...

Most broken pokemon atm: Dracovish, Darmanitan, Hydreigon(with the busted set) and Corviknight.

Change my mind.
 
So has anyone else noticed how hard it is to find good special attackers in this meta?
Specs Goodra's another option. Outspeeds Dracovish, wins a 1v1 against unboosted Hatterene thanks to SpD, and takes 45.4 - 53.5% from Specs Timid Toxtricity Boomburst. It can even barely survive a Shell Smashed Stored Power from Polteageist but you'll need priority to finish the job if it's using Focus Sash.

Also discovered yesterday that dynamaxed Pokémon are apparently immune to Destiny Bond? Epic.
 
As per new update on Serebii, Defog now removes Terrain.

Not sure how viable this will be considering our Terrain setters aren’t terribly viable right now, and it doesn’t stop Hawlucha from activating its seed item anyways.
If Fini was in SwSh it would’ve been gutted. But as far as the obvious dynamax discussion goes, I’ve seen one argument against a ban to dynamaxing which states that the meta will be bland and unfun without it. This is not true.

A metagame doesn’t need a flavor of the week mechanic to be fun and interesting. Gen4 OU is still constantly evolving and is imo the most fun comp generation despite not having a gimmick. SwSh OU is starting to get bland and sometimes even unplayable at times. The ladder is filled with nothing but Drill, Sand Balance, FerroPex Balance, Rain, Darm, Gyara, Ditto and Lucha. All cause of how centralizing Dynamaxing is.

On the other hand, Gigantamaxing should stay as a whole and here’s why.

-Only 23 (not including Lax, Toxtricity, and Melmetal) mons can Gigantamax meaning it is far easier to predict who’s gonna Gigantamax than a team with Drill/Darm/Ditto/Gyara/Pult/Corv.

-If a Gigantamax form is broken, it can be banned individually like megas and even certain z-crystals.
 
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