Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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You realize that there are only 13 Pokemon in existence that resist Hawlucha's dual STABs, and we only have access to three of them? Aegislash, Rotom, and Rotom-Fan.
Last I heard Aegislash was a good Pokemon, why don't you start using it? If it's usage increases then less people will use Hawlucha. This is how a meta works.

Half the anti Dynamax posts are acting like every Dynamax is getting attack and speed boosts like Hawlucha does. Even Hawlucha has to be facing types that are vulnerable to Fighting to get damage boosts, or flying for Speed boosts. If it's only doing neutral damage then there's a good chance it's not getting a OHKO and is being worn down in return.

If you known that your opponent is using Fightning and Flying moves, that seems like a huge advantage in team building? The reality is that either everyone isn't actually using Hawlucha or it's an immature meta and people are choosing to test Hawlucha first because of the hype.
 
Last I heard Aegislash was a good Pokemon, why don't you start using it? If it's usage increases then less people will use Hawlucha. This is how a meta works.

Half the anti Dynamax posts are acting like every Dynamax is getting attack and speed boosts like Hawlucha does. Even Hawlucha has to be facing types that are vulnerable to Fighting to get damage boosts, or flying for Speed boosts. If it's only doing neutral damage then there's a good chance it's not getting a OHKO and is being worn down in return.

If you known that your opponent is using Fightning and Flying moves, that seems like a huge advantage in team building? The reality is that either everyone isn't actually using Hawlucha or it's an immature meta and people are choosing to test Hawlucha first because of the hype.

Lol so what if the hawlucha player pairs him with gyra (which is common) who destroys aegislash. Or what if Hawlucha runs fpunch (unoptimal but an option). Its not really healthy to have things this centralizing, that can also circumvent their supposed counters anyway. Usually you could easily revenge kill lucha with any def clef or even straight up force it out...now he dynas after his SD and youre doing 43% lol. Grats you lose.

IDK why youre acting like this is healthy at all. Aegislash isnt even close to being a counter even with its typing lol. What is he even doing back to dynamax lucha. Toxic? Thats pretty much all I can think of.
 

Ophion

Gotta get the right perspective
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor
I don't know if you're blind or just a troll who can't read.

oh right you're pro dynamax. the only thing you can see is the dynamax button.

All I've been doing is addressing the "arguments" made by pro-dynamaxers.
One side lacks intelligence and does not understand what makes something broken and/or does not understand what counter arguments are. Yes, it is the anti-ban side that lacks intelligence.
And all you’re doing is not contributing jack shit to the conversation and just shitting on people who want dynamax banned for reasons I can’t fathom. If you’re so anti ban, make a post explaining why in a respectful and thorough way and stop insulting the other side, it just makes you look bad. And when the suspect comes around, maybe get reqs and vote no ban.
 
I have been investigating the new metagame and seeing people complaining about how Dynamax is OP, and needs to be banned. I personally think that people were underestimating how good stall moves (like thunderwave, subsitute, dive, fly, and dig) are simply to waste Dynamax turns. i began to investigate pokemon that could make exceptional use of this and i stumbled apon Cramorant. Cramorant has quite a expansive and threatening movepool both for stall and offence.

Notable moves:
Dive
Fly
Subsitute
Roost
Protect
Weather Ball
Hurricane
Hydropump
Defog
Drill Peck
Icy Wind
Ice Beam
Air Slash
Brave Bird
Super Power
Throat Chop
Liquidation
Endure
Reversal
Surf
Scald
Aqua Ring
Feather Dance
Whirlpool

Potential movesets:

Dumb Bird (Cramorant) @ Leftovers
Ability: Gulp Missile
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dive
- Fly
- Roost
- Substitute

This moveset fully takes advantage of leftovers to get more health regen, relying on stalling for healing and getting Gulp Missile procs to deal with foes. I think this set could potentially be really good, however, I am currently unsure exactly how Gulp Missile works. How much damage does it do? does it do % health damage or what? Does it proc when a substitute is broken? I think these are important questions that need to be answered. The biggest problem with a stall Cramorant set like this would be its only passable defensive stats, Cramorant will struggle to take non resisted hits to get onto the field from any sort of offensive pokemon, and Cramorant really needs the speed investment to ensure it can get its roosts and substitutes off in the face of the threatening Dynamax pokemon its supposed to stall out.

Despite Cramorants great movepool its biggest problem in trying to be an offensive pokemon is being outclassed. Dracovish is stopped by less counters and hits far harder, and Cramorants fighting coverage dosent make up for the lost stats. And as a special sweeper, its outdone by Peliper who sets up rain for itself.

Dynamax Potential:

Despite Cramorant being pigeonholed into stall due to its bad stats, it actually has above average Dynamax potential for a stall pokemon. Many Stall Pokémon don't do well Dynamaxed due to being slow and weak, and not being able to fit the moves required to make good use of Dynamax. However, Max Geyser sets up rain for itself, boosting its power to respectable levels, and Max Airstream boosts its speed and makes it harder to outrun it and catch it without a substitute after a KO. The main problem is it cant use dive or fly well Dynamaxed, however, Max Guard still does the job of stalling and the extra HP might let you take an extra hit if you cant get a sub up vs a Dynamax pokemon.

Well I have my doubts that Cramorant can overcome its bad stats and find anything but a Niche in OU, I think Cramorant has potential in at least SOME tier, and people should probably investigate it and the applicable use of moves such as Dive and Fly on other pokemon in order to counter Dynamax.
 
Lol so what if the hawlucha player pairs him with gyra (which is common) who destroys aegislash. Or what if Hawlucha runs fpunch (unoptimal but an option). Its not really healthy to have things this centralizing, that can also circumvent their supposed counters anyway. Usually you could easily revenge kill lucha with any def clef or even straight up force it out...now he dynas after his SD and youre doing 43% lol. Grats you lose.

IDK why youre acting like this is healthy at all. Aegislash isnt even close to being a counter even with its typing lol. What is he even doing back to dynamax lucha. Toxic? Thats pretty much all I can think of.
And what makes it even sadder, Aegislash doesn't even have access to Toxic in this current meta lol. Now we're literally suggesting to send out Aegislash, who for most of the time can't even do a meaningful thing to Dynamaxed lucha, for being a "solid" counterplay. This conversation is seriously getting ridiculous.
 
here's a shitty mon i've been running because lol

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Fire Punch / Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Stone Edge

There is nothing fulfilling the role of fast ground type scarfer with U-turn. It has a good speed tier so it can revenge kill +1 gyara, scarf darm-z, etc. It revenge kills a lot, has momentum, can sweep super late against HO teams, but obviously isn't that strong until it gets going. Could be a shitty dynamaxer, not great though. Thunderpunch over edge because of gyarados, (and rain in general) although stone edge is nice for charizard I guess. In my head it kind of works like gen 4 Flygon, or how I think that works given that I don't really play the metagame. This also randomly gets first impression, which is cool and all but.. don't see it being all that good - doesn't have much revenge killing power. Fire punch is basically to get a bit of respect from Ferrothorn, could also run fire blast and naive because they seem to be physically defensive. it's kind of like a very shitty landorus-t. (rip)

there weirdly hasn't been much Pex, as a random observation. I guess it's because excadrill is everywhere?
 
And all you’re doing is not contributing jack shit to the conversation and just shitting on people who want dynamax banned for reasons I can’t fathom. If you’re so anti ban, make a post explaining why in a respectful and thorough way and stop insulting the other side, it just makes you look bad. And when the suspect comes around, maybe get reqs and vote no ban.
Why should I make a respectful and thorough post when there have been multiple people including myself who have done so in this discussion? If you want to blame someone for not contributing jack shit, blame yourself for not having the ability to read why people are against dynamax ban. I'm shitting on you guys because its clear that your side is losing this argument and now grasping at straws by having multiple members think that I haven't made any constructive posts as to why dynamax is unhealthy for the metagame.
 
Then you have something which beats Gyarados, electric types are super effective against Hawlucha too!

This is how you build a team.
You're removing contexts from posts, and I don't feel thats really fair.
Electric types are scarce in this meta and so are electric moves it feels, most of which gyara and lucha either can tank due to the dynamax hp boost or will just knock out anyways because when you switch to it, you're just giving a free setup turn

Why should I make a respectful and thorough post when there have been multiple people including myself who have done so in this discussion? If you want to blame someone for not contributing jack shit, blame yourself for not having the ability to read why people are against dynamax ban. I'm shitting on you guys because its clear that your side is losing this argument and now grasping at straws by having multiple members think that I haven't made any constructive posts as to why dynamax is unhealthy for the metagame.
I'm sorry, I don't understand. are you agaisnt or for the ban on dynamax? Some of your wording makes it seem youre both.
 
Last I heard Aegislash was a good Pokemon, why don't you start using it? If it's usage increases then less people will use Hawlucha. This is how a meta works.

Half the anti Dynamax posts are acting like every Dynamax is getting attack and speed boosts like Hawlucha does. Even Hawlucha has to be facing types that are vulnerable to Fighting to get damage boosts, or flying for Speed boosts. If it's only doing neutral damage then there's a good chance it's not getting a OHKO and is being worn down in return.

If you known that your opponent is using Fightning and Flying moves, that seems like a huge advantage in team building? The reality is that either everyone isn't actually using Hawlucha or it's an immature meta and people are choosing to test Hawlucha first because of the hype.
Dynamax gives you the effect on the move, not from the type advantage. You can acrobatics a Ferro that used protect, and still receive the speed boost. You're probably thinking of moxie or beast boost which gives you the boost on ko.

You're also forgetting that Hawlucha has great synergy with dynamax letting it set terrain, activating seed which triggers unburden's speed boost and acrobatics 2x damage
 

Finchinator

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Let's try and avoid falling into specific conversations that involve brief, choppy posts and only 2-3 users. We want to have a discussion on the entire metagame for everyone and it is clear that this thread was headed in the wrong direction. We have had to delete posts and monitor things, which is fine, but I would like to continue having actual discussion instead of narrow-minded back-n-forth filled bs. Remember the forum rules here, too!
 
I have been investigating the new metagame and seeing people complaining about how Dynamax is OP, and needs to be banned. I personally think that people were underestimating how good stall moves (like thunderwave, subsitute, dive, fly, and dig) are simply to waste Dynamax turns.
I think the issues are more so it lets the person who has the advantage keep an insane amount of momentum and that it forces all playstyles to run at least one stall Pokemon just to deal with a mechanic then there is counterplay. Just because something has a means to beat it doesn't mean it isn't overcentralizing. In addition, some of those stall means aren't that good. Protect can only be used once in secession, Para/Conf/Flinch are unrelyable on the best of days, Dig and its derivatives are subpar in most other settings dealing bad damage and are predictable, and other means of beating out set up Pokemon don't even work on them like Destiny Bond. Subsitute is a counter, but you are wasting 75% of your Pokemon's health because your opponent clicked a check box. That can still put you in a disadvantage state.
 
Ok I'm leaning more towards "ban dyna" the more I play and the more I read in the thread.

Primarily from the thread; its mostly the shitposting from the dyna anti-ban side that's leaning me towards banning (good job guys), it almost makes me sound like a moron being associated.

But to be more reasonable and realistic:

To first explain why I was anti-ban originally; it was just because I do think dynamax isn't the worst thing we've seen in history, and that it can still function in a competitive environment, but truth be told now I don't think its a mechanic majority of players can properly adapt to, and that's not to insult anyone on a pro-ban side, its to express the level of difficult actually dealing with it is even at peak level. Just like how majority of players can't adapt to naganadel, mega lucario, any genesect meta, etc.. there's options out there but its too restraining to utilize those options, and the more restraining and harder to find those options are, the less likely players can efficiently overcome the problem. This reminds me of a philosophy that actually fucks with my head in other competitive games like LoL (a game I'm grandmasters in) where the excuse of keeping something broken is because there's specific counters and builds, and assumes you're actually playing those counters at their peak level, in an elo where you're going to be punished for fucking up a lot harder especially when you don't have peak experience with that specific counter, and you're still not accounting for other factors in the game itself to make up for that piece of shit's flaws (junglers, lane prio, supports, counter builds etc). You have to remember in scenarios like these; there's always going to be a counter to something, and the opponent will also have an answer for that counter, and the more that counter is seen, the more said threat adapts to it, and once the problem adapts to its counters, there's well... no counters. If fucking dive toxapex counters dynamax for the 3 turns its there, what stops the dynamax'd mon from switching into a dugtrio turn 2 of dyna, removing the pex, and then calling that a win regardless because the dynamax still enabled a setup to remove a massive obstacle for any other sweeper on the team (sure dyna gyarados won't be dyna gyarados, but who's to say baiting out the pex stops gyarados from being regular gyarados and sweeping? Or their durant from cleaning up the entire team late game? Its still 6v5 now with their biggest wall gone, a player who breathes oxygen will know how to abuse that unless the stars aline for the 5 mon player. While yes you can argue you'd bait out toxapex for dugtrio with regular gyarados too, the difference is even if pex goes, its not as huge of a loss because there's multiple solutions to regular gyarados, and you can account for that (such as bringing in corsula and ferrothorn into reg knowing the dugtrio is there, instead of being forced into pex for the dyna turns.)

The main reason why I didn't think dyna was the problem was because specific mons were abusing it (gyara, ditto, exca, hawl, darma), and I was in belief that the rest wouldn't be nearly as hard to deal with. Somebody replied mentioned hydrei, ttar, durant, toge, but I still am in belief those can be dealt with a lot easier due to lower speed tiers, lack of flying moves, or way weaker type advantages. Pretty sure conk handles ttar and hydrei, and excadrill also deals with non-aurasphere toge and ttar.. durant? not sure tbh.

However what I came to realize: the biggest problem is you can't account for all of these at once, yes they each have their own checks and counters, but how the fuck do you account for all of them in every team? There is no equal chance of winning, instead its matchup dependant on which dyna sweeper you prepped for, and which one they actually dynamax (god help you if they have multiple). Its not the individual sweepers you have to worry about, its amount of sweepers you have to factor into team building, and this is where you can chip away until gen 8 OU eventually becomes gen 8 RU and still have the problem of "factoring everyone", especially without splashable mons like heatran, lando, and moreso around.

That's why I went from anti-dyna, to on the fence, to lets be realistic now. You can't look at dynamax as a micro issue, you have to look at it as a macro issue, there's a bigger picture but majority of anti-ban are too funneled on very small issues that anyone can come up with a solution for, but it doesn't fix the whole picture. On paper you can make any individual issue have a large enough pro/con list to look managable, but you don't combine the pros and cons of everything else that makes the pros outweigh its cons in the given meta... for example; lets theorymon to say volcarona is very weak to rocks as a con, and lets say one 1 pokemon in the entire game gets rocks, you make volc sound a lot shittier than it actually is.

I must say, I still strongly disagree with giga max being included in the dynamax ban, I could care less if giga gets banned later down the road and proves me wrong, but I strongly disagree that gigas are as intolerable as dynas given their small pool of users, and the majority of those users not being setup sweepers (g-centi, sanda, etc I highly doubt are issues that can't be countered given their speed tiers, lack of setup moves aside from coil etc, and losing the ability to setup weather with their moves). Right now I just don't see any gigas on the map, primarily due to dyna's snuffing them out (imagine using g-centi in a hawl/gyara meta) to prove my point of how underwhelming or for somebody to prove how broken x is. There's also more managability for lower tiers since you can restrict G-forms to higher tiers they're being played in (Beedrill is PU/ZU but mega is UU), but you can't basically make whole tiers for every dynamax mon. Banning G-butterfree to ubers/BL (just throwing an example) + dynamax as a whole makes a lot more sense to me to build the tier with than banning G Max + dyna or keeping both... this would be like mega evolution, if everymon got it, sure ban the mechanic, but we know not everyone gets it so its easier to funnel specific issues, and I don't think that changes with G-max despite the movepool change when they use it (not like hera and pinsir didn't use a different movepool when mega'd either.) Idk maybe G-Kantolizard is still too broken when it can't setup sun for itself with solar power, but we haven't been able to see with the current issues.

Ban Dynamax, Keep G-max for now, suspect later if 5+ threats are too much, buff jungle gold and XP, and evaluate the meta as a whole afterwards.
 
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Okay since people don't think my posts are constructive enough, then I will use Smogon's official Tiering Policy Framework to show why dynamax & gigantamax needs to be banned. The Policy Framework is stated here.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/

First of all, maxing is part of the actual game and like most mechanics, tiering council wants to avoid banning it or putting a clause on it- see the example they give with sleep clause and freeze clause.

The mechanic has to be so gamebreaking that it warrants a ban.

Probability management is a part of the game

Critical hits, accuracy, secondary effect chance are all things to be considered in pokemon battles. However, factors that affect the outcome too much are not okay. People have accepted that maxing allows a less skilled player to turn the tables against a better player, and snowball the game to their favor. Furthermore, dynamax's stat boosts last until the pokemon is KO'd or switched out, which can be a considerable amount of time of disadvantage for the more skilled player.

Team Building- Dynamaxing forces people to put certain pokemon like ditto or play defensively and thus limits the team building options that people have. Ditto is almost a must pick and so is a valuable dynamax mon which already takes up 2 slots.

Battling Skill- Due to dynamaxing's interaction with the choice items, scouting choice moves with protect can become a non-factor and instead of switching, players can now dynamax and attack the opponent who will think they are safe. Dynamax moves do damage through protect and similar moves, and have 100% guarantee of their effect. So, even if people use the right move or predict correctly, they are still punished.

Broken- They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. (directly quoted from the framework post)

As we all know, we are forced to dynamax in the current metagame, and thus dictate what the game should be. The OU metagame now centralizes around dynamax and players are forced to use it AND forced to have a team that can respond to the other player dynamaxing.

Yes, the meta always centralizes around something like megas and terrain, etc BUT in those formats, multiple forms of those existed, and none were dominant enough to dictate or limit the amount of options the player had.

In USUM meta, all four Tapus were OU and multiple megas were in OU. But, in the dynamax era, the metagame now revolves around a few pokemon.

Finally, their first goal and purpose

To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.

This is the nail in the coffin. One reason why people like dynamaxing is the fact that it can often turn the tides of a battle. A player who was winning can lose to someone who is less skilled than them.

Comeback mechanics are an exciting part of any game, but not when it has nothing to do with the player's actual skill and more from the player's sense of desperation. I'm certain that with the advent of dynamaxing that comebacks have increased in percentage.

Comeback mechanics in pokemon were always pretty rare and relied on some really dumb luck like multiple turns of paralysis in a row or a lot of lucky crits.

With all that said, dynamax is an important part of sword/shield and the plot relies on it, and it is also the game's main selling point- using dynamax pokemon in raids and in entertaining battles. and yes, it does need to go away due to it going against the tiering policy framework.
 
Hey there everyone. I'm gonna try and detract from the Dynamax discussion again because this thread is starting to actively hurt my brain and I'm sick of seeing posts about the same bullshit. Let's talk about a Pokemon that got new life breathed into it in Gen 8, Shedinja.

Shedinja

Abilities: Wonder Guard
Stats:
HP: 1
Attack: 90
Defense: 45
Special Attack: 30
Special Defense: 30
Speed: 40​

Need something that doesn't worry about Choiced Dracovish's Fishious Rend? Try Shedinja.
Need something that doesn't worry about Choiced Galarian Darmanitan's Icicle Crash? Try Shedinja
Need something that can halt a Ditto's Imposter'd reign? Try Shedinja.
Need something to stalwart a boosted sweeper in a multitude of types? Try Shedinja.
Need something that is unexpected and most of the time people don't prepare for? Try Shedinja.
Need something that can stop a Dynamax'd Pokemon without the coverage to nuke it? Try Shedinja

For those who don't know how Shedinja works, its unique ability Wonder Guard means that only Super Effective moves, hazard damage, weather, and status can kill it. Now you're probably thinking (wow, it can still get hit by all that other stuff, why bother using it outside of Ubers [where in previous generations it has had a specific niche])? It's simple. Heavy-Duty Boots was introduced, meaning Shedinja doesn't have to worry about hazards at all unless it gets Tricked / Switcheroo'd. Along with this, Pursuit is no longer a thing and Knock Off is almost non-existent in Generation 8.

Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Leech Life
- Shadow Sneak

This set can be an absolute win-con for you late game as Shedinja can be an unlikely cleaner. Simply bring in Shedinja on a predicted boosting move / Ditto spam / Pokemon that you're sure doesn't have coverage that can kill Shedinja (Flying, Rock, Fire, Ghost, Dark type attacks), and proceed to watch them flail helplessly against you or switch out. You can then use Will-O-Wisp to cripple a predicted switch in, or use one of your attacking moves to take something out. A lot of times people underestimate Shedinja's power as well and will switch in Pokemon like Dragapult thinking they can outspeed and deal with it. It's not a safe switch in.

252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 144-170 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO (The common Specs set, assured 2HKO with hazard support)

Shedinja can't be slapped willy nilly on any team, I'm sure you all know that. But the meta is kind to it right now, and (particularly on rain teams) it can provide crucial support against most of the metagame. It handles very specific threats that are EVERYWHERE right now, and should be considered as an option to deal with those threats.
 
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Note: Not sure if this is the right place to post/ask this (or if its even allowed) so feel free to delete it you see fit.

I haven't played competitively since the tail end of 6th gen so I won't comment on current META until I get more SwSh experience under my belt. However, there a question for which I've yet to learn an answer: What's the primary reason for sticking to cart so strongly? My first guess is fear that daddy GF won't like it.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that Smogon literally make its own Pokemon-esque game (which certainly could be done given the coding experience is already present on PKMN Showdown) but the ability to mod the game to be more competitive sound like it has no real drawback outside of possibly alienating casual players. It seems as though going through the cluster-fuck that is Pokemon as a competitive game is something which can be sidestepped, or at least partially assuaged, by implementing more competitively-minded mods to the game.
 
Hey there everyone, I'd like to post another Pokemon I've had some massive success with as of late. Duraladon

Duraludon

Type: Steel / Dragon
Abilities: Light Metal / Heavy Metal / Stalwart
Stats:
HP: 75
Attack: 95
Defense: 115
Special Attack: 120
Special Defense: 50
Speed: 85​

Duraludon is an interesting new Pokemon that has been pretty ignored for being... well, a little unconventional. But what you need to understand is that this Pokemon was built for Dynamaxing (or in this case Gigantimaxing), and it can REALLY take advantage of that. Along with this, it has a fantastic typing, great physical bulk in 75 / 115, a wonderful movepool, a stellar Special Attack, and a surprising amount of Speed given the slow-ness that Pokemon of this type are known for.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

Behold the nuclear power of STAB Draco Meteor and STAB Steel Beam (You can use Flash Cannon if the health loss bothers you). If you need a Dragon that can OHKO Fairy types, look no further than this Skyscraper Dragon. When Dynamaxed, you have Max Steel Spike which boosts up Duraludon's physical bulk even higher, Max Darkness to nail all the Ghosts wandering around and lowering their Special Defense, and Max Wrymwind which lowers the opponent's attack stat. This thing is meant to rack up physical bulk and break down special-weak cores. Thunderbolt is specifically for annoying Pokemon like Barraskewda, Pelipper, etc.

Let me give y'all some calcs to show you the power of this monster. These calcs are with a neutral SpA nature (Timid, like in the set I posted)

252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alcremie: 408-482 (122.1 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene: 458-540 (144 - 169.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 758-894 (239.1 - 282%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash: 184-217 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Also with the set I posted, Duraludon outspeeds all non-scarf variants of Dracovish.

I don't even need to begin telling you how huge this is.
Go try Skyscraper Boi out.
 
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Hey there everyone, I'd like to post another Pokemon I've had some massive success with as of late. Duraladon

Duraludon

Type: Steel / Dragon
Abilities: Light Metal / Heavy Metal / Stalwart
Stats:
HP: 75
Attack: 95
Defense: 115
Special Attack: 120
Special Defense: 50
Speed: 85​

Duraludon is an interesting new Pokemon that has been pretty ignored for being... well, a little unconventional. But what you need to understand is that this Pokemon was built for Dynamaxing (or in this case Gigantimaxing), and it can REALLY take advantage of that. Along with this, it has a fantastic typing, great physical bulk in 75 / 115, a wonderful movepool, a stellar Special Attack, and a surprising amount of Speed given the slow-ness that Pokemon of this type are known for.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

Behold the nuclear power of STAB Draco Meteor and STAB Steel Beam (You can use Flash Cannon if the health loss bothers you). If you need a Dragon that can OHKO Fairy types, look no further than this Skyscraper Dragon. When Dynamaxed, you have Max Steel Spike which boosts up Duraludon's physical bulk even higher, Max Darkness to nail all the Ghosts wandering around and lowering their Special Defense, and Max Wrymwind which lowers the opponent's attack stat. This thing is meant to rack up physical bulk and break down special-weak cores. Thunderbolt is specifically for annoying Pokemon like Barraskewda, Pelipper, etc.

Let me give y'all some calcs to show you the power of this monster. These calcs are with a neutral SpA nature (Timid, like in the set I posted)

252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alcremie: 408-482 (122.1 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene: 458-540 (144 - 169.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 758-894 (239.1 - 282%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash: 184-217 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Also, its base physical bulk?

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon in Rain: 177-209 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's with NO defensive investment. Also with the set I posted, Duraludon outspeeds all non-scarf variants of Dracovish.

I don't even need to begin telling you how huge this is.
Go try Skyscraper Boi out.
Two questions for you: does Stalwart do anything for it, unless i missed where you stated that, and when you G-max it, does its max move help it out in a notable way?

I guess to keep from being those "one-liners", I'll ask y'all this:
What pokemon did you not expect to be the way it is in the meta?
I personally didn't expect Gyarados to surge in popularity or usage, although some of you probably did.
 
Hey there everyone, I'd like to post another Pokemon I've had some massive success with as of late. Duraladon

Duraludon

Type: Steel / Dragon
Abilities: Light Metal / Heavy Metal / Stalwart
Stats:
HP: 75
Attack: 95
Defense: 115
Special Attack: 120
Special Defense: 50
Speed: 85​

Duraludon is an interesting new Pokemon that has been pretty ignored for being... well, a little unconventional. But what you need to understand is that this Pokemon was built for Dynamaxing (or in this case Gigantimaxing), and it can REALLY take advantage of that. Along with this, it has a fantastic typing, great physical bulk in 75 / 115, a wonderful movepool, a stellar Special Attack, and a surprising amount of Speed given the slow-ness that Pokemon of this type are known for.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

Behold the nuclear power of STAB Draco Meteor and STAB Steel Beam (You can use Flash Cannon if the health loss bothers you). If you need a Dragon that can OHKO Fairy types, look no further than this Skyscraper Dragon. When Dynamaxed, you have Max Steel Spike which boosts up Duraludon's physical bulk even higher, Max Darkness to nail all the Ghosts wandering around and lowering their Special Defense, and Max Wrymwind which lowers the opponent's attack stat. This thing is meant to rack up physical bulk and break down special-weak cores. Thunderbolt is specifically for annoying Pokemon like Barraskewda, Pelipper, etc.

Let me give y'all some calcs to show you the power of this monster. These calcs are with a neutral SpA nature (Timid, like in the set I posted)

252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alcremie: 408-482 (122.1 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hatterene: 458-540 (144 - 169.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 758-894 (239.1 - 282%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash: 184-217 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Also, its base physical bulk?

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon in Rain: 177-209 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's with NO defensive investment. Also with the set I posted, Duraludon outspeeds all non-scarf variants of Dracovish.

I don't even need to begin telling you how huge this is.
Go try Skyscraper Boi out.
I've been enjoying Duraludon as an offensive rocker since it's one of the only rockers than can threaten Corviknight. Timid max Special Attack Thunderbolt 2HKOs every relevant Corv set. Duraludon can also 2HKO Physdef Pex with Thunderbolt. Sadly it doesn't learn Focus Blast or Fire Blast so I use Body Press to chip steels.

Sash has done well for me as a lead but Life Orb probably works otherwise. It's very helpful for when people lead Darm-G, you live EQ and KO with Flash Cannon, then get rocks up after.

Duraludon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock

Your calcs are off by the way; Duraludon is by no means a good answer to Dracovish.

Situation 1: Banded, hits Dura on the switch in
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Duraludon in Rain: 353-416 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Situation 2: Banded, Dura outspeeds
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Duraludon in Rain: 176-207 (62.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Situation 3: Scarf Dracovish
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Duraludon in Rain: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
I guess to keep from being those "one-liners", I'll ask y'all this:
What pokemon did you not expect to be the way it is in the meta?
I personally didn't expect Gyarados to surge in popularity or usage, although some of you probably did.
For me, even when I started to see how important Dynamaxing was becoming, Ditto's usage surprised me. Also Shedinja's since with HDBoots this is one of the kinder metas for itsince it checks stuff like GDarm, Gyara and Hawlucha well

Also I'm surprised Pex usage isn't higher, I knew Drill was gonna be everyhwere and atm that's keeping it in check, and hence
any other Pokémon people are surprised haven't done as well as anticipated?
 
I don't love dynamaxing as some seem to dislike it, but there's one ridiculous statement that bugs me here and that i must debunk for the sake of truth and justice.

"Dynamaxing allows the less skilled player to win" is a nonsense. Timing dynamaxing correctly is skillful play. Predicting dynamaxing and doing correct counterplay is a skillful play as well. Indeed, it is part of the game to predict correctly, and predicting dynamaxing is the very demonstration of it.

Momentary and situational importance reduction of the lack of skill is why some people tend to pretend that it is an anti-skill mechanic, but i ask of you to think of it for a minute.
...
Indeed. Complaining about it is nothing more than complaining about not being able to find counterplay when you've let the opponent set up its setup sweeper. It is your misplay if you let that happen. Your lack of skill is at fault.
And as we all know, what matters the most if we're going to judge who a winner is, is overall skill performance. Dynamaxing could be considered the no-redeem point for a lack of skill. And that doesn't change anything to that. If anything, it is positive to it.

Dynamaxing itself is an extra skill factor, as mind games are based on it. It is here to shake things up, and removing it is detrimental to whoever wants to get a more complex experience.

Now, that was for the debunk. Hope you have a good day and i don't have to debunk more lies.

As for the impact of dynamaxing on the meta... ideally, all players should have the maximum amount of options to build their teams and make their creativity work. An overly offense-oriented meta might be indeed negative to it. However, a meta can be balanced.
And you don't want to remove a skill factor. You want to remove the centralizing abusers of that factor. And i'm all for suspect testing them, so we can reach a balanced and creativity-allowing meta without losing important skill value in the process. (particularly since the existence of dynamaxing is in itself a gift to creavitity)
 
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annnnnnnnnnnnnnd here's my sun team
https://pokepast.es/1ebbaaeba6d5aae3
Torkoal is a staple on sun as the obvious setter, w/ Ninetales being garbage as always even in Gen 8. Wait, who am I kidding, no one ever expected Ninetales to be good in Gen 8. Next, we have the abuser called Leafeon. Leafeon is absolutely fantastic, +1 Solar Blade 2hkos mixed aegis which is absolutely crazy. As for Work Up over SD, Weather Ball is leafeon's only fire move, and it isn't even fire outside of sun, but it works well. It hits bugs(not that there's a lot) and steels. However, it must be noted that a 2x resisted Solar Blade is generally stronger than a neutral Weather Ball. Weather Ball hits steels rather hard, in sun it deals 300 damage, and 2 shots every relevant steel except for Duraludon.
Charizard here is my wallbreaker. It deals crazy damage in sun, able to one-shot non-resists because its essentially a Fire Blast in sun boosted by Solar Power coming off a 95+ base stat. It two shots Pex w/ Solar Beam and is able to one-shot after rocks with Max Airstream iirc
So far, this team has a gaping weakness to Araqunuid and opposing TTar so I added DD TTar to partially alleviate this weakness, and double weather allows you to get sun back up faster.
Shrifty is the 2nd abuser, able to do crazy amounts in sun. I'd put Leaf Blade over Synthesis, but it really isn't compatible with Sucker Punch which I need for the rare Scarf Dragapult (which otherwise tears through my team). And finally, Centiskorch. It's the best GMaxer there is imo, and is an excellent sun abuser. Generally, G-Darm tries to clean late-game and a +1 Centiskorch can stop that sweep. Double HP, +1 Def, and Grassy Surge reducing EQ damage plus one-shotting with Max Overgrowth gets rid of the most dangerous pokemon in the meta and paves the way for a late-game clean. Enjoy!
 
Okay since people don't think my posts are constructive enough, then I will use Smogon's official Tiering Policy Framework to show why dynamax & gigantamax needs to be banned. The Policy Framework is stated here.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/

First of all, maxing is part of the actual game and like most mechanics, tiering council wants to avoid banning it or putting a clause on it- see the example they give with sleep clause and freeze clause.

The mechanic has to be so gamebreaking that it warrants a ban.

Probability management is a part of the game

Critical hits, accuracy, secondary effect chance are all things to be considered in pokemon battles. However, factors that affect the outcome too much are not okay. People have accepted that maxing allows a less skilled player to turn the tables against a better player, and snowball the game to their favor. Furthermore, dynamax's stat boosts last until the pokemon is KO'd or switched out, which can be a considerable amount of time of disadvantage for the more skilled player.

Team Building- Dynamaxing forces people to put certain pokemon like ditto or play defensively and thus limits the team building options that people have. Ditto is almost a must pick and so is a valuable dynamax mon which already takes up 2 slots.

Battling Skill- Due to dynamaxing's interaction with the choice items, scouting choice moves with protect can become a non-factor and instead of switching, players can now dynamax and attack the opponent who will think they are safe. Dynamax moves do damage through protect and similar moves, and have 100% guarantee of their effect. So, even if people use the right move or predict correctly, they are still punished.

Broken- They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. (directly quoted from the framework post)

As we all know, we are forced to dynamax in the current metagame, and thus dictate what the game should be. The OU metagame now centralizes around dynamax and players are forced to use it AND forced to have a team that can respond to the other player dynamaxing.

Yes, the meta always centralizes around something like megas and terrain, etc BUT in those formats, multiple forms of those existed, and none were dominant enough to dictate or limit the amount of options the player had.

In USUM meta, all four Tapus were OU and multiple megas were in OU. But, in the dynamax era, the metagame now revolves around a few pokemon.

Finally, their first goal and purpose

To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.

This is the nail in the coffin. One reason why people like dynamaxing is the fact that it can often turn the tides of a battle. A player who was winning can lose to someone who is less skilled than them.

Comeback mechanics are an exciting part of any game, but not when it has nothing to do with the player's actual skill and more from the player's sense of desperation. I'm certain that with the advent of dynamaxing that comebacks have increased in percentage.

Comeback mechanics in pokemon were always pretty rare and relied on some really dumb luck like multiple turns of paralysis in a row or a lot of lucky crits.

With all that said, dynamax is an important part of sword/shield and the plot relies on it, and it is also the game's main selling point- using dynamax pokemon in raids and in entertaining battles. and yes, it does need to go away due to it going against the tiering policy framework.
I mean, I believe the vast majority agree that Dynamax should be banned, and the few who disagree are being very polite about it. I happen to also think Dynamaxing should be banned, but you are generally being a right cunt about it for absolutely no fucking reason. This is a place to be constructive and argue the benefits and negatives, not to resort to the ad hominem fallacy. Please keep it respectful especially considering there may be newer fans of the series posting here for the first time. We want to keep people excited, not tear them down because we disagree with their opinion.

I don't love dynamaxing as some seem to dislike it, but there's one ridiculous statement that bugs me here and that i must debunk for the sake of truth and justice.

"Dynamaxing allows the less skilled player to win" is a nonsense. Timing dynamaxing correctly is skillful play. Predicting dynamaxing and doing correct counterplay is a skillful play as well. Indeed, it is part of the game to predict correctly, and predicting dynamaxing is the very demonstration of it.

Momentary and situational importance reduction of the lack of skill is why some people tend to pretend that it is an anti-skill mechanic, but i ask of you to think of it for a minute.
...
Indeed. Complaining about it is nothing more than complaining about not being able to find counterplay when you've let the opponent set up its setup sweeper. It is your missplay if you let that happen. Your lack of skill is at fault.
And as we all know, what matters the most if we're going to judge who a winner is, is overall skill performance. Dynamaxing could be considered the no-redeem point for a lack of skill. And that doesn't change anything to that. If anything, it is positive to it.

Dynamaxing itself is an extra skill factor, as mind games are based on it. It is here to shake things up, and removing it is detrimental to whoever wants to get a more complex experience.

Now, that was for the debunk. Hope you have a good day and i don't have to debunk more lies.

As for the impact of dynamaxing on the meta... ideally, all players should have the maximum amount of options to build their teams and make their creativity work. An overly offense-oriented meta might be indeed negative to it. However, a meta can be balanced.
And you don't want to remove a skill factor. You want to remove the centralizing abusers of that factor. And i'm all for suspect testing them, so we can reach a balanced and creativity-allowing meta without losing important skill value in the process. (particularly since the existence of dynamaxing is in itself a gift to creavitity)
A meta can be balanced around the mechanic, but when the mechanic warps the entire metagame in an unhealthy way and you have to ban a significant portion of the meta just to take a shot at balancing it (and eventually just playing whac-a-mole as the next batch of abusers crops up) isn't good. If we can balance the meta without culling a large chunk of 'mons then we should. Otherwise we end up banning Gyar, Hawlucha, Gengar, Darm (though he is likely ubers anyway), Corviknight, etc. All of which would likely be good (but not overbearing) even without Dynamax.
 
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That would be like banning every problematic abuser of Baton Pass (Scolipede, Smeargle, Espeon, Ninjask, Gorebyss, Huntail, etc.) instead of just banning Baton Pass.
Not necessarily, though.
Clauses exist, and baton pass got hit by a fair amount of them. That is until it got sent to the shadow realm because no matter how many clauses you patched it with, it would still generate complaints.
I can see your point, though. You think that the point where dynamaxing will stop being banworthy is beyond the point where the meta will be less offense-oriented.

I respectfully disagree. It may take more than a handful of mons to send to Ubers in order to balance the meta for the better, but it is by no means a price as great as butchering the meta of complexity.
 
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Two questions for you: does Stalwart do anything for it, unless i missed where you stated that, and when you G-max it, does its max move help it out in a notable way?
Hey there! Tbh Duraludon's abilities are relatively useless. I just have Stalwart there so that Thunderbolt doesn't get absorbed by Pokemon with various abilities that absorb Electric moves. Also his G-Max move just removes the opponent's PP, so it's pretty meh. It's much better to just do damage instead.
Your calcs are off by the way; Duraludon is by no means a good answer to Dracovish.
I used the Showdown Damage Calculator. How did you get those calcs, am I doing something wrong or is it just glitched out?
 
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