Haven't seen anyone else mention it so I thought I'd bring up a pokemon I've been getting quite good results from, Seismitoad. The combination of decent bulk, water immunity, stealth rock and toxic is pretty unique and makes it a good fit on offensive teams looking for a temporary fat thing that can help play around rain and be a nuisance to the many toxic - vulnerable defensive pokemon going around at the moment.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I think eviolite corsola is going to end up being a (better) gen 5 Dusclops: a ton of hype, but too passive w/ too few resistances to be a staple, despite having decent recovery. I think substitute is particularly good this gen, which certainly doesn't help.
That said, it certainly has a potent niche for the reasons CM mentioned. It reminds me a lot of gen 7 pyukumuku. It doesn't have block, but whirlpool is sufficient for perish baiting. The shadow tag ban helps that potential niche as well
That said, it certainly has a potent niche for the reasons CM mentioned. It reminds me a lot of gen 7 pyukumuku. It doesn't have block, but whirlpool is sufficient for perish baiting. The shadow tag ban helps that potential niche as well
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Guess who's back from the depts of RU? Revenge Gardevoir!
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
- Moonblast*
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Mystical Fire / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball / Etc.
*Moonblast is only truly relevant for Dragapult in the current meta, so if you have other stuff dealing with it, this can be subbed for any of her massive array of coverage moves. Psychic takes care of Kommo-o and Focus Blast takes care of Hydreigon.
Scarf Gardevoir is fully capable of revenge killing extremely fast threats such as Barraskewda in the rain and Excadrill in the sand thanks to Trace, turning their own ability against them, and CBCBDarm is outsped as well. All of them are OHKO'd one way or another by Garde in return.
Non-AV TTar can be OHKO'd with a high roll (or with hazard support) by Focus Blast as well.
For coverage, it's up to what you need most. If you're not running Moonblast you can even double up to fit your needs. Mystical Fire ensures she's not hopelessly walled by any Steel types, Thunderbolt allows her to shut down both Pelipper and Gyarados, common allies to Barraskewda, while Energy Ball helps deal with mons like Rotom-W. Shadow Ball can help against Aegislash (potentially OHKO'ing it in blade form if it doesn't King's Shield), and gives her another option against Dragapult if not running Moonblast.
The best part of Gardevoir has always been her versatility in moveset options and it doesn't disappoint. Pick what you need on your team.
Ah, but I see you asking, doesn't Scarf Ditto do the revenge job better? And indeed it does! But its Ditto - that's not sticking around if its on every single team.
The set also technically is capable of wallbreaking to an extent, as both Ferro and Pex are 2HKO'd, though she only beats Ferro if she catches it on the switch, as else she gets killed by Gyro Ball. Dedicated wallbreaker sets with Specs and Modest will fare better in this case:
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Modest Nature
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Mystical Fire
- (Anything really, Healing Wish or Trick maybe?)
Specs Modest Garde can punch holes in all of the tiers top walls. Pex is OHKO'd by Psychic now that it opts to build for Defense over Special Defense, Corviknight and Ferro by Mystical Fire, and Focus Blast is capable of 2HKO'ing AV Tyranitar or OHKO any other variant.
Practically every other wall can be dealt with by Psychic. Hippowdown you could run Energy Ball for, but Psychic already 2HKOs, and Energy Ball is unable to OHKO anyway. Same for Shadow Ball vs Corsola. So the last slot can be used to lock something into a move with Trick or to heal someone on the team when her job is done.
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
- Moonblast*
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Mystical Fire / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball / Etc.
*Moonblast is only truly relevant for Dragapult in the current meta, so if you have other stuff dealing with it, this can be subbed for any of her massive array of coverage moves. Psychic takes care of Kommo-o and Focus Blast takes care of Hydreigon.
Scarf Gardevoir is fully capable of revenge killing extremely fast threats such as Barraskewda in the rain and Excadrill in the sand thanks to Trace, turning their own ability against them, and CBCBDarm is outsped as well. All of them are OHKO'd one way or another by Garde in return.
Non-AV TTar can be OHKO'd with a high roll (or with hazard support) by Focus Blast as well.
For coverage, it's up to what you need most. If you're not running Moonblast you can even double up to fit your needs. Mystical Fire ensures she's not hopelessly walled by any Steel types, Thunderbolt allows her to shut down both Pelipper and Gyarados, common allies to Barraskewda, while Energy Ball helps deal with mons like Rotom-W. Shadow Ball can help against Aegislash (potentially OHKO'ing it in blade form if it doesn't King's Shield), and gives her another option against Dragapult if not running Moonblast.
The best part of Gardevoir has always been her versatility in moveset options and it doesn't disappoint. Pick what you need on your team.
Ah, but I see you asking, doesn't Scarf Ditto do the revenge job better? And indeed it does! But its Ditto - that's not sticking around if its on every single team.
The set also technically is capable of wallbreaking to an extent, as both Ferro and Pex are 2HKO'd, though she only beats Ferro if she catches it on the switch, as else she gets killed by Gyro Ball. Dedicated wallbreaker sets with Specs and Modest will fare better in this case:
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Modest Nature
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Mystical Fire
- (Anything really, Healing Wish or Trick maybe?)
Specs Modest Garde can punch holes in all of the tiers top walls. Pex is OHKO'd by Psychic now that it opts to build for Defense over Special Defense, Corviknight and Ferro by Mystical Fire, and Focus Blast is capable of 2HKO'ing AV Tyranitar or OHKO any other variant.
Practically every other wall can be dealt with by Psychic. Hippowdown you could run Energy Ball for, but Psychic already 2HKOs, and Energy Ball is unable to OHKO anyway. Same for Shadow Ball vs Corsola. So the last slot can be used to lock something into a move with Trick or to heal someone on the team when her job is done.
trubbish
Banned deucer.
I was able to play in the 4pm tournament yesterday. Had a lot of fun even though I didn't really prep at all for it. I pretty much just spammed things that are generally considered to be busted, Gyarados, Excadrill, Corviknight, Ferro/Pex, etc. and did decently well. However, I crumbled once I got to teams that were seemingly built to counter the popular Pokemon spam. Competitive Pokemon runs on an interesting contradiction (I guess this is true for all competitive games) where seemingly the more something is used..... the less good it becomes. I don't think I'm going to bring Gyarados to the next tournament. Its clear way too many players stack their team against it, making it overall less effective. I suppose this is what makes the tourny scene quite a bit more interesting than ladder play, as it forces you into using lesser known threats.
Regardless, one interesting item that has risen up in the face of Dynamax has been the Red Card, an item the generally never saw much use outside of some niche examples. It actually got a pretty good indirect buff with the addition of Dynamax. Since you can only Dynamax one Pokemon per game and many Pokemon rely on snowballing with their dynamax up, losing both your available dynamax AND all the stats you accrued can be devastating for many teams. Plus, the overall lack of Knock Off has made it a little more reliable. A couple of Pokemon I saw rocking the red card include:
Mandibuzz. Amazing defensive stats, recover, defog and Foul Play make Mandibuzz an excellent check to a lot of scary threats. The Red Card prevents it from becoming Dynamax bait and physical sweepers (like Corviknight) generally don't want to try and burst passed it.
Unaware can assure Quagsire can tank a hit from any sweeper, allowing Red Card to activate and send it away. Quagsire doesn't hate losing Leftovers since it has recovery and it forms a pretty potent core with Ferrothorn, especially if you are tired of using Toxapex.
Same deal with Quagsire but with a Fairy type.
Disguise allows Mimikyu to take atleast one hit- and that is all Red Card needs to activate. It requires Mimikyu to run a different set than the standard, but it is an interesting threat to Dynamax sweepers nontheless.
edit: lol jk red card is useless lmao
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Sorry to burst that bubble but Red Card isnt supposed to work on Dynamax mons - it was a mistake on SD but should be fixed nowView attachment 207505
I was able to play in the 4pm tournament yesterday. Had a lot of fun even though I didn't really prep at all for it. I pretty much just spammed things that are generally considered to be busted, Gyarados, Excadrill, Corviknight, Ferro/Pex, etc. and did decently well. However, I crumbled once I got to teams that were seemingly built to counter the popular Pokemon spam. Competitive Pokemon runs on an interesting contradiction (I guess this is true for all competitive games) where seemingly the more something is used..... the less good it becomes. I don't think I'm going to bring Gyarados to the next tournament. Its clear way too many players stack their team against it, making it overall less effective. I suppose this is what makes the tourny scene quite a bit more interesting than ladder play, as it forces you into using lesser known threats.
Regardless, one interesting item that has risen up in the face of Dynamax has been the Red Card, an item the generally never saw much use outside of some niche examples. It actually got a pretty good indirect buff with the addition of Dynamax. Since you can only Dynamax one Pokemon per game and many Pokemon rely on snowballing with their dynamax up, losing both your available dynamax AND all the stats you accrued can be devastating for many teams. Plus, the overall lack of Knock Off has made it a little more reliable. A couple of Pokemon I saw rocking the red card include:
Mandibuzz. Amazing defensive stats, recover, defog and Foul Play make Mandibuzz an excellent check to a lot of scary threats. The Red Card prevents it from becoming Dynamax bait and physical sweepers (like Corviknight) generally don't want to try and burst passed it.
Unaware can assure Quagsire can tank a hit from any sweeper, allowing Red Card to activate and send it away. Quagsire doesn't hate losing Leftovers since it has recovery and it forms a pretty potent core with Ferrothorn, especially if you are tired of using Toxapex.
Same deal with Quagsire but with a Fairy type.
Disguise allows Mimikyu to take atleast one hit- and that is all Red Card needs to activate. It requires Mimikyu to run a different set than the standard, but it is an interesting threat to Dynamax sweepers nontheless.
I feel like Galar-Darmanitan is really, really tough to handle these times. The fact that it can OHKO Scarf Dittos that try to come on a locked Icicle Crash by popping Dynamax and freeing itself from Gorilla Tactics to go for Flare Blitz is especially deadly. I don't think it'll leave OU once the meta settles a little - it simply hurts too much for that. I got steamrolled by one in the semifinals of today's 10 am tournament. Actually, I think this'll be the first time ever a pure-Ice type retains an OU status this generation.
Hey, I am trying to get to competitive pokemon as I love how the meta has evolved. I have a question what do you guys think of the ice type in general this Gen? I mean all the new pokemon and the old ones with updated moves. What are the possible tiers and so on? Thank you so much in advance.
Welp, there goes any hope of stopping DMax mons. Barring Ditto, there really isn't any sort of counter to them, and extremely few checks too. If Red Card doesn't work either... idk what we're going to do. DMax just feels like an OP mess.
Ice got a hell of a buff this gen. G-Darm is an INSANE wallbreaker and/or scarfer and/or sub sweeper. Chances are it'll be banned but we'll have to wait and see. Eiscue pulls off a similar role as it can Belly Drum for free on any Physical Pokemon if brought in safely. Slow VoltTurn would probably be really nice with it. Frosmoth is no Ice Volcarona, but it's a decent Quiver Dance user.
Don’t forget that Kyurem-B finally got Dragon Dance and a physical Ice STAB in Icicle Spear this gen.
I'd like to share two sets I've had a bit of success with while laddering:
Rotom-Wash @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Levitate
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Rest
- Nasty Plot
This set is very helpful in dealing with fat teams. Rest paired with chesto is not new and helps keeping rotom healthy and protected against annoying toxic. What is new is the addition of nasty plot that made rotom capable of applying a lot more pressure. You can custom your spread depending on your needs. I've personally used a more offensive one in a rain team that allowed me to 2hko stuff like pex at +2 with rain up. And of course with dynamax activated you can start getting important kills once you are boosted.
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
Another strong set against fat stuff. Substitute is important to annoy ditto and avoid status. The coverage allows you to hit stall stuff like clefable easily. In dynamax with flash cannon you get defensive boost that makes you harder to rkill and dynamax dark is just perfect to drop SpD and increase the damage dealt. Leftovers keeps you healthy in the process, I guess metronome is another option you could consider.
Rotom-Wash @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Levitate
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Rest
- Nasty Plot
This set is very helpful in dealing with fat teams. Rest paired with chesto is not new and helps keeping rotom healthy and protected against annoying toxic. What is new is the addition of nasty plot that made rotom capable of applying a lot more pressure. You can custom your spread depending on your needs. I've personally used a more offensive one in a rain team that allowed me to 2hko stuff like pex at +2 with rain up. And of course with dynamax activated you can start getting important kills once you are boosted.
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
Another strong set against fat stuff. Substitute is important to annoy ditto and avoid status. The coverage allows you to hit stall stuff like clefable easily. In dynamax with flash cannon you get defensive boost that makes you harder to rkill and dynamax dark is just perfect to drop SpD and increase the damage dealt. Leftovers keeps you healthy in the process, I guess metronome is another option you could consider.
I put this in the wrong place like a dumbass, but I think its small enough to put here, so I wanted to put down some thoughts I had for terrain support on Hawlucha. Hawlucha is looking strong as ever, and it has an amazing attribute of being immune to being RKd by ditto with unburden active. And although it has a new trick up its sleeve of self setting terrain with max thundepunch, I find this strictly inferior to getting the buff on switch in.
ANYway, 4 terrain setters come to mind
1: Indeedee is a pretty interesting Mon, it gets 2 different stat ranges based on its gender, so you can go male, for 60, 65, 55, 105, 95, 95, or female, for 70, 55, 65, 95, 105, 85. Male seems better due to speed, but you can opt to go female for a bulkier variant. it contains a respectable 105 SpA with terrain boosted STAB, and decent typing in normal psychic, a ghost immunity being a rare commodity among psychic types. For support moves, it notably has Encore, Screens, and healing wish. Trick might be nice to knock off a corsola's eviolite but idk. This lets it not be set-up bait, while still providing support and momentum into lucha. Maybe it could use a scarf set with its decent speed and it can role compress with trick and healing wish.
Its worth noting that pyschic seed raises Lucha's spedef, which is arguable the less useful defense buff
2: Pinchurchin is decently strong, and decently bulky, but does not do either very well. Not to cop out or anything, but Eza made a really thorough thread about this little guy here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pincurchin.3656454/#post-8287326
TLDR is notably gets hazards, recovery, and memento(and self destruct), and memento especially can be really good in aiding Hawlucha's win. (oh it sets electric terrain btw)
3:Galarian weezing sets misty terrain, which, unlike the other 3, DOES NOT boost move power, leaving weezing stuck with a base 85 SpA and 90 attack. It does have a usable defense stat at 120, but has no recovery, and rlly should be memento-ing or exploding for lucha. (It does get heat wave tho which is cool).
4: Rillaboom blows the other 3 out of the water honestly.
ANYway, 4 terrain setters come to mind
1: Indeedee is a pretty interesting Mon, it gets 2 different stat ranges based on its gender, so you can go male, for 60, 65, 55, 105, 95, 95, or female, for 70, 55, 65, 95, 105, 85. Male seems better due to speed, but you can opt to go female for a bulkier variant. it contains a respectable 105 SpA with terrain boosted STAB, and decent typing in normal psychic, a ghost immunity being a rare commodity among psychic types. For support moves, it notably has Encore, Screens, and healing wish. Trick might be nice to knock off a corsola's eviolite but idk. This lets it not be set-up bait, while still providing support and momentum into lucha. Maybe it could use a scarf set with its decent speed and it can role compress with trick and healing wish.
Its worth noting that pyschic seed raises Lucha's spedef, which is arguable the less useful defense buff
2: Pinchurchin is decently strong, and decently bulky, but does not do either very well. Not to cop out or anything, but Eza made a really thorough thread about this little guy here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pincurchin.3656454/#post-8287326
TLDR is notably gets hazards, recovery, and memento(and self destruct), and memento especially can be really good in aiding Hawlucha's win. (oh it sets electric terrain btw)
3:Galarian weezing sets misty terrain, which, unlike the other 3, DOES NOT boost move power, leaving weezing stuck with a base 85 SpA and 90 attack. It does have a usable defense stat at 120, but has no recovery, and rlly should be memento-ing or exploding for lucha. (It does get heat wave tho which is cool).
4: Rillaboom blows the other 3 out of the water honestly.
- It sets grassy terrain, which raises defense
- Its a very good mon on its own right, very splashable and gets U-turn, very potent in this meta.
- As a very powerful banded attacker, it can chip down or knock off Hawlucha checks like corsola or corvinight or physdef pex.
Its really just a great mon, just like Tapu Koko, I foresee it being a very strong mon, and used outside hawlucha teams, giving some flexibility to your lucha team.
Despite being a lowly lower tier main, I've been playing the ou ladder most of the day, peaked #1 a few hours ago and I definitely have some thoughts regarding the meta now that we're a good number of days in.
To start with the hottest topic, I'm entirely on the fence as far as keeping or banning dmax goes. At first I hated it a ton, though now I've come to appreciate the little quirks about it that relatively even it out. The largest of these reasons is that dmaxing takes away your scarf speed. Ditto still abuses the shit out of stuff like boosted gyara/exca/etc but for the most part I've acclimated. Whatever happens I simply hope a decision is made sooner rather than later, so as not to suddenly have to relearn stuff right before spl starts.
As far as more broader meta thoughts, I feel like near the top of the ladder 4 general archetypes are dominating, albeit some minor changes obviously exist on most teams. Anyway, to list them:
1) darm+ditto offense/bo. it's just so punishing, they're arguably the 2 best mons in the meta. Ditto can help you escape almost any scary scenario, and almost nothing escapes getting obliterated by darm. Bar predicting the correct choice-locked move a darm will use, toxapex has proved to be the best counter. Tons of shit in this meta is flying/levitating so clicking eq while locked can leave you in a world of hurt. Losing momentum with darm (especially on pure offense) puts you in an often irredeemable hole bar them throwing. you can easily pair darm/ditto with stuff that handles pex though.
2) gyarados+exca sand+offensive ghost. this is the one with the most variants but usually these four are existing on said teams. the ghost is mostly aegi/special dragapult, though rarely i've seen mimikyu too. you'd want special pult since so much physical prowess in gyara/exca/ttar alrdy. if no aegi ferro/clef is a pretty common appearance. other stuff like rotom-wash i've seen used by ppl like yuze here too. I think this archetype has the most solid foundation as far as being a competent team goes. naturally, scarf darm can rip into it pretty well, but ditto isn't too great outside of keeping gyara in check most times i've found. stall with ditto can too if handled correctly.
3) stall. i'm gonna be honest, i haven't lost to stall once lmao. i think there's way too much going on with no chansey for hard stall to be truly good. with goth around it was fantastic, particularly that 1 abr team. i can see this handling people who've brought breaker-light teams, but overall it struggles. ditto is a needed lifeline for stuff like dmax'ed gyara, and if a team solely revolves around dmax'd gyara or hawlucha then it prolly has the edge. not a ton to say, just think it's not too great atm.
4) bulky balance with ditto/2 hard breakers/3 fat mons. i've seen a surprising amount of this near the top, namely from ppl like xray. i think this is a much more thoughtful take to bulk than hard stall in our current climate. it isn't always at the mercy of the menacing breakers in the tier, but still can be played like a fat team vs non-breaker heavy teams. on xray's version (and others) sub hydreigon has been a really cool choice. blocking ditto, subbing on pex, and a number of other useful traits make it such a good pick for these fatter teams. i suppose this blurb is the least-well defined of the 4 archetypes i've described, but i've definitely seen quite a lot of fat+ditto+2 bulkier breakers such as hydreigon/aegislash.
and that's about it. for some general thoughts, sub 2 atk hydreigon is omega cool. cb darm is an absolute bitch, and darm in general for sure should be the first thing we suspect. gmax isn't broken but i'd prefer banning gmax corvi/gmax gengar if we do ban dmax. the fossil mons are cool af, and should be played around with more. i've never seen galarian-corsola win a game, and im genuinely in the dark as to why there's so much hype behind it. As a final thought, i've seen like almost no hawlucha at the top, while it definitely was rampant in the mid levels of the ladder, which as of the time of this post is the 1300-1350-ish range.
Thanks if you read all of this! I've enjoyed this meta a lot and didn't think I'd experience resonating with the tier so quickly tbh aha.
To start with the hottest topic, I'm entirely on the fence as far as keeping or banning dmax goes. At first I hated it a ton, though now I've come to appreciate the little quirks about it that relatively even it out. The largest of these reasons is that dmaxing takes away your scarf speed. Ditto still abuses the shit out of stuff like boosted gyara/exca/etc but for the most part I've acclimated. Whatever happens I simply hope a decision is made sooner rather than later, so as not to suddenly have to relearn stuff right before spl starts.
As far as more broader meta thoughts, I feel like near the top of the ladder 4 general archetypes are dominating, albeit some minor changes obviously exist on most teams. Anyway, to list them:
1) darm+ditto offense/bo. it's just so punishing, they're arguably the 2 best mons in the meta. Ditto can help you escape almost any scary scenario, and almost nothing escapes getting obliterated by darm. Bar predicting the correct choice-locked move a darm will use, toxapex has proved to be the best counter. Tons of shit in this meta is flying/levitating so clicking eq while locked can leave you in a world of hurt. Losing momentum with darm (especially on pure offense) puts you in an often irredeemable hole bar them throwing. you can easily pair darm/ditto with stuff that handles pex though.
2) gyarados+exca sand+offensive ghost. this is the one with the most variants but usually these four are existing on said teams. the ghost is mostly aegi/special dragapult, though rarely i've seen mimikyu too. you'd want special pult since so much physical prowess in gyara/exca/ttar alrdy. if no aegi ferro/clef is a pretty common appearance. other stuff like rotom-wash i've seen used by ppl like yuze here too. I think this archetype has the most solid foundation as far as being a competent team goes. naturally, scarf darm can rip into it pretty well, but ditto isn't too great outside of keeping gyara in check most times i've found. stall with ditto can too if handled correctly.
3) stall. i'm gonna be honest, i haven't lost to stall once lmao. i think there's way too much going on with no chansey for hard stall to be truly good. with goth around it was fantastic, particularly that 1 abr team. i can see this handling people who've brought breaker-light teams, but overall it struggles. ditto is a needed lifeline for stuff like dmax'ed gyara, and if a team solely revolves around dmax'd gyara or hawlucha then it prolly has the edge. not a ton to say, just think it's not too great atm.
4) bulky balance with ditto/2 hard breakers/3 fat mons. i've seen a surprising amount of this near the top, namely from ppl like xray. i think this is a much more thoughtful take to bulk than hard stall in our current climate. it isn't always at the mercy of the menacing breakers in the tier, but still can be played like a fat team vs non-breaker heavy teams. on xray's version (and others) sub hydreigon has been a really cool choice. blocking ditto, subbing on pex, and a number of other useful traits make it such a good pick for these fatter teams. i suppose this blurb is the least-well defined of the 4 archetypes i've described, but i've definitely seen quite a lot of fat+ditto+2 bulkier breakers such as hydreigon/aegislash.
and that's about it. for some general thoughts, sub 2 atk hydreigon is omega cool. cb darm is an absolute bitch, and darm in general for sure should be the first thing we suspect. gmax isn't broken but i'd prefer banning gmax corvi/gmax gengar if we do ban dmax. the fossil mons are cool af, and should be played around with more. i've never seen galarian-corsola win a game, and im genuinely in the dark as to why there's so much hype behind it. As a final thought, i've seen like almost no hawlucha at the top, while it definitely was rampant in the mid levels of the ladder, which as of the time of this post is the 1300-1350-ish range.
Thanks if you read all of this! I've enjoyed this meta a lot and didn't think I'd experience resonating with the tier so quickly tbh aha.
Its by no means the best or most viable sets, but this one is good for laughs
Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
you can 100% reverse sweep teams by setting up sand for yourself, even regen your sash in grassy terrain, more of a low ladder gimmick, but high on entertainment
Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
you can 100% reverse sweep teams by setting up sand for yourself, even regen your sash in grassy terrain, more of a low ladder gimmick, but high on entertainment
Oh that makes me feel very happy. So Darmanitan might actually go to ubers?
What about the Eiscue and Frosmoth? I know it is early but what tiers might they end up in?
What about Mamoswine, Alola Ninetales and Weevile?
That was an amazing surprise! Any chance Black Kyurem gets pumped to Uber??
We won't know until it's released, but if Dynamax happens to stick around by the time Home is out, I can see Kyurem-B being a nasty Dynamax user to boost the power of Icicle Spear, especially after a DD.
I would be shocked if it stays in OU, it loves dynamax so much too, it can even abuse freeze shock the way it did with Z moves, and doubling is health is really big on a mon like KB, but thats trivial, DD is just a busted move on that mon
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Box cover legendaries automatically go to Ubers. Kyurem-B has been the exception for the past few generations due to how bad its movepool was, but with the movepool buff the reason for that exception is gone.
makes sense, you can't give a mon thats supposed to be ubers but isnt DD, and then expect it to stay OU. (meanwhile tho, melmetal is a hard counter, I dunno if he's usable tho, thats just how it was on Nexus)
Let’s remember to avoid one liners and double posting! Very happy with discussion overall and thanks to so many people for weighing in on such a new and exciting metagame, but we still have to follow normal posting procedure and rules! Thanks 
Either way, that'll be something I see tested instead of being flat-out quickbanned unless it's actually proven to be too broken from the get. Kyurem-B has been an OU mon for nearly a decade now, so I don't see it getting the same quickban treatment that the box ubers get.
To keep the discussion away from theorymonning, I predict that Galarian Corsola is gonna fall off very soon as more offensive threats are starting to run Substitute/Taunt/etc now. It's just too easily exploited by these moves, especially sub users who can make 101 HP subs like Rillaboom, Centiskorch, etc. Dracozolt is a notable sub user who can 2HKO it with Bolt Beak.
Speaking of which - isn't Zamazenta fairly mediocre, as well, given its typing and movepool? How likely do you think a similar drop is for shield dog?
Hey! Been lurking here for a while, decided to try out the gen 8 beta and figured I would join in on the discussion. I've thrown together a couple of quick, low-effort teams and most of them sucked (or maybe I suck at battling) but one that's done pretty well for me so far is the following one. I figured I'd share it as well as thoughts on it and how it relates to the metagame as a whole. Also, this is going to be kinda long since I have a lot of thoughts piled up so bear with me here. Anywhere, here's the team:
As you can see, this is a really standard, boring hazard-stacking stall. The only thing here that might seem unconventional is Avalugg, which I was super excited to try out because of the combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Body Press coming off a base 184 defense stat. So far it's been... pretty good. Its shortcomings are the fact that it crumbles to literally any special attack and that it can even get overwhelmed on the physical side by super-effective moves. The lack of Leftovers recovery is really strongly felt, and a lot of the time, I make the mistake of not playing conservatively enough and prioritizing removing entry hazards over keeping Avalugg healthy. However, I think a better stall player would probably do better with it, and while I don't think it'll be OU, I expect it to become a heavy stall staple in the same vein as Quagsire. The big problem I have with Avalugg is the fact that it's not a particularly good spinner. There are so many new popular Ghost types that I feel like spinblocking is going to become relevant again, and Avalugg doesn't really spin on any of them, especially not Corsola. As such, this hazard-stacking team is quite weak against other hazard-stacking teams, ironically enough.
Another issue with this team is its severe weakness to status, particularly Burn which nothing really enjoys taking. I could and probably should replace Quagsire with Aromatherapy Clefable, but I personally prefer the added buffer against Excadrill and Fire-types, as well as the abilitiy to poison Toxic Spikes immune Pokemon like Rotom. Honestly, the loss of Toxic on a huge amount of Pokemon feels like a massive nerf to defensive teams, fortunately Quagsire still has it and amazingly still preforms the same role it did with the same exact set it ran for the past 4 generations. Go figure.
The Pokemon I want to talk about the most here is Corvinight. In case you're wondering, it's running Iron Head and 12 Speed EVs to outspeed and 2HKO Timid Hatterene. But yeah, this thing has blown me away with how good of a wincon it is. Bulk Up + great typing + solid defenses + Toxic immunity + Taunt + the ability to hit the other popular taunter, Grimmsnarl, for massive damage is just an incredible combination, and if it also was immune to Burn I'd call it the perfect Bulk Up user. It's just a phenomenal win condition for defensive teams.
But overall, I don't feel confident about Stall's viability in this fast, offensive metagame. Which is suprising to me because I figured that removing half the number of available Pokemon would be good for Stall because it would make it easier to cover everything, but the Pokemon that are left are... just too powerful to deal with. On top of some of the nerfs to it I mentioned, and the removal of Megas making Trick an almost guaranteed way to shut something down, super popular stuff like Gyarados, Barraskewda, Excadrill, Darmanitan and Gengar can just overpower Stall so easily. And while I don't want to make any definitive statements about the brokeness of Dynamaxing, I do feel like it puts Stall teams at a huge disadvantage. I have seen people argue that you can just Dynamax your defensive Pokemon in response to the opposing offensive Dynamaxing, but the fact that Pokemon do not have access to recovery, status, or any utility move like Leech Seed or Roar while Dynamaxing makes it much harder to stop the opposing Dynamax user. You might say "okay, but you can stall out the opposing Dynamax Pokemon with Max Guard", but I don't think that really holds up in practice, and I'll explain why with a step-by-step breakdown:
Say the opponent sends in a powerful sweeper, sets up, and in response, you send in your counter to it. Because Dynamax can happen at any time with any Pokemon, you can't know in advance if your opponent is going to Dynamax. (I guess you could predict the Dynamax but realistically, most players, even skilled players, won't be able to, and the risk of mispredicting is huge because you lose your Dynamax). Anyway, you have your wall against a Dynamax user, and it eats up a powerful hit. Then, you Dynamax your own Pokemon, use Max Guard, and congrats, your opponent only has one turn of Dynamax left. However, it can still use that turn to hit you again, and all you can do is attack back. Given that the opposing Pokemon is Dynamaxed, unless it's super frail or already weakened, it will live. So, the opposing Dynamax runs out, but your Pokemon still had to take 2 powerful hits without being able to recover, and still has to take another later. You can eat up the next hit and attack back in the hope of KOing. If you fail to KO, you will have to take a 4th hit before being able to use a status move, at which point your Pokemon will almost certainly be KOed. If you succeed, congrats, the opposing Pokemon is gone! Now, you have a severely weakened pokemon who can easily be picked off and need to deal with whatever secondary effects the Dynamax moves caused. You could also spend the last Dynamax turn using Max Guard to access your status moves taking as little damage as possible, but by the time you're able to use them, you took 3 hits, 2 while not being Dynamaxed. This honestly doesn't seem significantly better than just not Dynamaxing. To me, Dynamaxing just doesn't seem to help Stall much.
So yeah, this is just to say that this metagame is not kind to Stall teams right now! But I think that's to be expected of a new metagame, once all the broken threats are gone (*cough* Gyarados *cough*), it should get better for our bulky friends.
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
Toxapex @ Shed Shell
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Roost
- Iron Head
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Body Press
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Encore
- Recover
- Toxic
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
Toxapex @ Shed Shell
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Roost
- Iron Head
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Body Press
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Encore
- Recover
- Toxic
As you can see, this is a really standard, boring hazard-stacking stall. The only thing here that might seem unconventional is Avalugg, which I was super excited to try out because of the combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Body Press coming off a base 184 defense stat. So far it's been... pretty good. Its shortcomings are the fact that it crumbles to literally any special attack and that it can even get overwhelmed on the physical side by super-effective moves. The lack of Leftovers recovery is really strongly felt, and a lot of the time, I make the mistake of not playing conservatively enough and prioritizing removing entry hazards over keeping Avalugg healthy. However, I think a better stall player would probably do better with it, and while I don't think it'll be OU, I expect it to become a heavy stall staple in the same vein as Quagsire. The big problem I have with Avalugg is the fact that it's not a particularly good spinner. There are so many new popular Ghost types that I feel like spinblocking is going to become relevant again, and Avalugg doesn't really spin on any of them, especially not Corsola. As such, this hazard-stacking team is quite weak against other hazard-stacking teams, ironically enough.
Another issue with this team is its severe weakness to status, particularly Burn which nothing really enjoys taking. I could and probably should replace Quagsire with Aromatherapy Clefable, but I personally prefer the added buffer against Excadrill and Fire-types, as well as the abilitiy to poison Toxic Spikes immune Pokemon like Rotom. Honestly, the loss of Toxic on a huge amount of Pokemon feels like a massive nerf to defensive teams, fortunately Quagsire still has it and amazingly still preforms the same role it did with the same exact set it ran for the past 4 generations. Go figure.
The Pokemon I want to talk about the most here is Corvinight. In case you're wondering, it's running Iron Head and 12 Speed EVs to outspeed and 2HKO Timid Hatterene. But yeah, this thing has blown me away with how good of a wincon it is. Bulk Up + great typing + solid defenses + Toxic immunity + Taunt + the ability to hit the other popular taunter, Grimmsnarl, for massive damage is just an incredible combination, and if it also was immune to Burn I'd call it the perfect Bulk Up user. It's just a phenomenal win condition for defensive teams.
But overall, I don't feel confident about Stall's viability in this fast, offensive metagame. Which is suprising to me because I figured that removing half the number of available Pokemon would be good for Stall because it would make it easier to cover everything, but the Pokemon that are left are... just too powerful to deal with. On top of some of the nerfs to it I mentioned, and the removal of Megas making Trick an almost guaranteed way to shut something down, super popular stuff like Gyarados, Barraskewda, Excadrill, Darmanitan and Gengar can just overpower Stall so easily. And while I don't want to make any definitive statements about the brokeness of Dynamaxing, I do feel like it puts Stall teams at a huge disadvantage. I have seen people argue that you can just Dynamax your defensive Pokemon in response to the opposing offensive Dynamaxing, but the fact that Pokemon do not have access to recovery, status, or any utility move like Leech Seed or Roar while Dynamaxing makes it much harder to stop the opposing Dynamax user. You might say "okay, but you can stall out the opposing Dynamax Pokemon with Max Guard", but I don't think that really holds up in practice, and I'll explain why with a step-by-step breakdown:
Say the opponent sends in a powerful sweeper, sets up, and in response, you send in your counter to it. Because Dynamax can happen at any time with any Pokemon, you can't know in advance if your opponent is going to Dynamax. (I guess you could predict the Dynamax but realistically, most players, even skilled players, won't be able to, and the risk of mispredicting is huge because you lose your Dynamax). Anyway, you have your wall against a Dynamax user, and it eats up a powerful hit. Then, you Dynamax your own Pokemon, use Max Guard, and congrats, your opponent only has one turn of Dynamax left. However, it can still use that turn to hit you again, and all you can do is attack back. Given that the opposing Pokemon is Dynamaxed, unless it's super frail or already weakened, it will live. So, the opposing Dynamax runs out, but your Pokemon still had to take 2 powerful hits without being able to recover, and still has to take another later. You can eat up the next hit and attack back in the hope of KOing. If you fail to KO, you will have to take a 4th hit before being able to use a status move, at which point your Pokemon will almost certainly be KOed. If you succeed, congrats, the opposing Pokemon is gone! Now, you have a severely weakened pokemon who can easily be picked off and need to deal with whatever secondary effects the Dynamax moves caused. You could also spend the last Dynamax turn using Max Guard to access your status moves taking as little damage as possible, but by the time you're able to use them, you took 3 hits, 2 while not being Dynamaxed. This honestly doesn't seem significantly better than just not Dynamaxing. To me, Dynamaxing just doesn't seem to help Stall much.
So yeah, this is just to say that this metagame is not kind to Stall teams right now! But I think that's to be expected of a new metagame, once all the broken threats are gone (*cough* Gyarados *cough*), it should get better for our bulky friends.
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Hey Sayuze, I've found this team to be relatively consistent and a great way to learn the meta. Kudos to a nice team and your willingness to share your experiences.
I'm wondering though how you deal with Hawlucha? While I know it's broken and probably won't stay too long whatever happens with Maxing, I'm curious if there's any other way than like keeping Clef healthy to Max it in response (if I were to guess) ? Thanks
I’m back with another team.
This team features two underrated threats in Gardevoir and Cinderace. Gardevoir can function as a breaker or scarf thx to its fantastic coverage and moves like Trick and Healing Wish providing more utility to teams. Its fantastic at revenging SRush Adamant Drill. Even without Libero its still a strong speedy wallbreaker and pivot that can flip the switch on hazard stacking teams with the amazing Court Change. This team also uses an odd Dragapult set that utilities its good defensive typing and movepool as much as possible while cracking through Ferro/Pex/Corv cores through its coverage and Disable. Shadow Ball can be used over Disable to hit Corsola and Toad harder. BU Corv is the wincon, Seismitoed sets rocks and stalls dynamax, and Specs Toxtricity punches through holes while also potentially checking Lucha.
So far, I have grown to love Gen 8 a little more. It still does give me that vibe Gen 7 except the roles of a few top mons from Gen 7 are held by different mons or the same mons.
The mon everyone uses
(Landorus = Ditto)
Terrifying meta defining sweeper
(Magearna = Gyarados)
Versatile speed demon
(Tapu Koko = Dragapult)
Unwallable but frail breaker
(Mega-Medicham = G-Darmanitan)
Bulky flying type that functions as a defogger and wincon
(Gliscor = Corviknight)
Bulky steel type with utility and wallbreaking potential
(Heatran = Aegislash)
Hard to wall rain abuser
(Mega-Swampert = Barraskewda)
Irritating stalling ghost
(Mega-Sableye = G-Corsola)
Then there is the classic Ferro/Pex/Clef core, and Lucha. The meta is still barely a month old so more time is needed to see what direction the meta will take.
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire/Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast/Healing Wish/Trick
Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Court Change
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SpD / 220 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Disable
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire/Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast/Healing Wish/Trick
Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Court Change
- Zen Headbutt
- U-turn
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SpD / 220 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Disable
This team features two underrated threats in Gardevoir and Cinderace. Gardevoir can function as a breaker or scarf thx to its fantastic coverage and moves like Trick and Healing Wish providing more utility to teams. Its fantastic at revenging SRush Adamant Drill. Even without Libero its still a strong speedy wallbreaker and pivot that can flip the switch on hazard stacking teams with the amazing Court Change. This team also uses an odd Dragapult set that utilities its good defensive typing and movepool as much as possible while cracking through Ferro/Pex/Corv cores through its coverage and Disable. Shadow Ball can be used over Disable to hit Corsola and Toad harder. BU Corv is the wincon, Seismitoed sets rocks and stalls dynamax, and Specs Toxtricity punches through holes while also potentially checking Lucha.
So far, I have grown to love Gen 8 a little more. It still does give me that vibe Gen 7 except the roles of a few top mons from Gen 7 are held by different mons or the same mons.
The mon everyone uses
(Landorus = Ditto)
Terrifying meta defining sweeper
(Magearna = Gyarados)
Versatile speed demon
(Tapu Koko = Dragapult)
Unwallable but frail breaker
(Mega-Medicham = G-Darmanitan)
Bulky flying type that functions as a defogger and wincon
(Gliscor = Corviknight)
Bulky steel type with utility and wallbreaking potential
(Heatran = Aegislash)
Hard to wall rain abuser
(Mega-Swampert = Barraskewda)
Irritating stalling ghost
(Mega-Sableye = G-Corsola)
Then there is the classic Ferro/Pex/Clef core, and Lucha. The meta is still barely a month old so more time is needed to see what direction the meta will take.
- Status