Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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FYI, Baton Pass was banned at the start of the generation. The strategy has proven to be broken pretty much every generation it's in, and this time around, it even got a buff in Polteageist, a Shell Smash user with Baton Pass that can't even be punished because Pursuit isn't in the game. On top of that, Dynamax can even deny phazing.
I would like some discussion and suspect testing on the Baton Pass issue, because last Gen it was banned due to Scolipede, Necrozma, Magearna, Z-Boost Eevee, Blaziken etc... NONE of which is even in Gen 8

There’s so many ways available to counter a BP strategy. And we don’t even know if Dynamax will be banned or not. Quick bans before a metagame is even physically available don’t really seem warranted or necessary
 
I would like some discussion and suspect testing on the Baton Pass issue, because last Gen it was banned due to Scolipede, Necrozma, Magearna, Z-Boost Eevee, Blaziken etc... NONE of which is even in Gen 8

There’s so many ways available to counter a BP strategy. And we don’t even know if Dynamax will be banned or not. Quick bans before a metagame is even physically available don’t really seem warranted or necessary
Being experienced in long chain baton pass, I think it should stay banned, especially whilst dynamaxing is around. I would have killed for a 3 turn phazing immunity when I was running it. It's far too difficult for conventional teams to deal with given the options available to them and until haze is given a mass increase in available users probably should remain banned.
 
Hey, thought I'd make a post about Sand Balance. I made a post earlier in this thread but I felt like it was too rushed and not to the point. But I feel like not many people have been talking about or showing traction, nor have many people been using it (from what I've been seeing).

Anyway, over the past few days, I have been breezing through ladder and I would like to believe it's due to the spam of Sand Balance in the form of:

+
along with
+
+
/
and then some speed control such as
/
.

These kind of cores are well suited for the meta right now imo. They have tools to beat offense, stall, and anything in between.

Starting off, the obviously true and tried core of TTar + Drill. I have tried support tar and band tar, both work great. Then SD Drill is a staple. The thing about drill in SS OU is that this mon is so versatile. To emphasize, think of it like this: It can SD, it can get a speed boost from spin very easily, it can get its defense boosted from the Dynamax Iron Head... This mon can literally setup on its own and win in certain scenarios. It's pretty insane. I had a game earlier where a scarf rotom Volt Switch'd on me as I spun (+1 speed boost), I SD'D on the switch then when he tried to kill me with his Hippowdon I dynamax'd and got the +1 Defense raise (along w/ the attack increase from Dynamax), leading me to just sweep with Drill himself, no sand needed or anything. This mon is super capable especially with Dynamax mechanics.

The defensive core of Ferro + Clef + Rotom/Pex is really good too. I think ferro is a god mon in the sense that it can beat mons 1v1 such as Gyara/Barraskewda/Excadrill with a simple Dynamax button. As well as Leech + Protect and Spikes are really good supporting moves. Clef, even without Softboiled in the form as an LO attacker or Bulky CM mon (w/ Moonlight/Wish ) is just good in general for being able to reliably pressure fat builds that are being commonly used. There isn't much downside to this mon as it can also beat stuff like Dragapult/Offensive Fighting types. It's really good imo. And you have your bulky water.

Top this all off with a Dragapult or something else of your choice for speed control as back up.

Anyway, I think that this is a more consistent playstyle from stall / cheese-y offense from what I've seen. I haven't really encountered too many tough matchups where I can't outplay which has definitely intrigued me a bit to spread the word about how these types of archetypes are good in the meta.

Good replays showcasing it:
View attachment 207255View attachment 207257View attachment 207258View attachment 207259View attachment 207260
could you share the team code of this team ? it seem interesting
 
Okay so I want to talk about a Pokémon that is underrated right now!

Swoobat

So at first glance Swoobat doesn't look very threatening, but don't underestimate it otherwise it will run through your team! Swoobat got access to Nasty Plot this gen, which when combined with it's ability, Simple, gives you an instant +4 to special attack. However, what really makes this Pokémon useable in OU is its ability to Dynamax and steam roll through teams. Max Airstream gives you +2 to speed instead of +1. Swoobat already has a great speed tier at base 114, allowing you to outpace most of the metagame. Additionally, Max Mindstorm gives you psychic terrain, making you're STAB Stored Power ridiculously strong after you've reverted back to normal in combination with all your stat boosts.

I've had success using this Pokémon, sweeping entire teams that are unprepared. However, due to its terrible defence (67, 55, 55) It's much harder to set up than say a Gyra or Lucha and is much more gimmicky/inconsistent compared to other Pokémon. Still, don't underestimate this mon, with all the Toxipexs and other relatively weak Pokémon running around, you can find opportunities to set up and sweep/break through teams. Here's the set I've been running:

Swoobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Simple
252Spe/252Spa/4Hp
Timid Nature
-Nasty Plot
-Stored Power
-Air Slash
-Shadow Ball

I'm sure there's a more optimal EV spread to run and you can probably swap out a Timid Nature for Modest, since at +2 speed Swoobat will still out speed most of the metagame.
 
Additionally, Max Mindstorm gives you psychic terrain, making you're STAB Stored Power ridiculously strong after you've reverted back to normal in combination with all your stat boosts.
Incorrect. Terrains only effect grounded pokemon. Swoobat; as a Flying-type; cannot benefit from Psychic Terrain unless it is grounded.

Also; the main problem with a Swoobat sweep is it's weakness to Sucker Punch. While Psychic Terrain usually stops priority moves; it only does that for grounded pokemon, so Swoobat doesn't get any protection.
 
Do we have a single generic special wall to check elemental (Fire/Ice/Electric) damage in general? Is there anything better than Snorlax/Tar/Umbreon?
Anyway TR Bronzong seems a decent cleaner because it can kill Toxapex (Zen Headbutt) and weakened Ferrothorn while powering itself up with Max Steel / Max Knuckle (Body Press). It checks non-Mold Breaker Excadrill too, but it's hard-walled by Aegislash and Corviknight
I'm also using shit like Spikes Roserade, Swift Swim Seismitoad, EB Abomasnow, DD Haxorus. I'll report later...
Thoughts on Zard? Specially Belly Zard, ...
Two days ago I tried Belly Drum / Fire Punch / Acrobatics / EQ with Sitrus Berry. It snowballs nicely, but honestly everything does with Flying- and Fight- Dynamax moves (gotta try Blitz/CC/Aerial Ace/Wild Charge Arcanine sooner or later...)
Overall I'm having fun. There's much more to uncover for me esp since I've skipped 2 gens.
Btw Gyarados and Hawlucha need to go. Excadrill is also overpowered, however it *may* become more manageable once the previous two leave the tier.
 
Incorrect. Terrains only effect grounded pokemon. Swoobat; as a Flying-type; cannot benefit from Psychic Terrain unless it is grounded.

Also; the main problem with a Swoobat sweep is it's weakness to Sucker Punch. While Psychic Terrain usually stops priority moves; it only does that for grounded pokemon, so Swoobat doesn't get any protection.
Ah damn forgot about terrain and flying types. Like I said, Swoobat isn’t the most consistent mon and will probably end up in lower tiers. However, it’s definitely useable right now with and abuses Dynamaxing pretty well!
 
In my opinion, these are some of the best mons and will have a slot in OU once everything is sorted out.
Returning mons
View attachment 207262/View attachment 207263 same old, same old.
View attachment 207264 Dynamax Gyara is OP
View attachment 207265 And here I was thinking that without the Tapus this mon would drop. ( How wrong I was)
View attachment 207266 With a lot of its checks gone,Drill is ready to dominate the meta again ( with or without Sand support )
View attachment 207267The Scarf set is the only one seeing effective use now, but that doesn't make Washrotom any less effective.

New mons
View attachment 207268 The fact that I need several mons to counter this speaks to how good this is.
View attachment 207269 This guy can function as a rain sweeper, anti rain or Banded beast.
View attachment 207270Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
View attachment 207271Not as good as hyped but still a good wall nevertheless.
View attachment 207272Also not as good as hyped, but I think its Choice Specs set will keep it afloat.
Also both arena trap and shadow tag need to be banned.
For Darmanitan, has anyone thought of anything that can help handle it? It seems like it's the star of the show in sword and shield.
 
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Yung Dramps

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sword-shield-battle-mechanics-research.3655528/page-13#post-8287541

tl;dr based Anubis has confirmed beyond a shred of a doubt that Choice items are essentially embargoed while Dynamaxed or when using Gorilla Tactics, giving you free reign to change up your moves but not giving you the Choice boost in the meantime. This applies for Choice Scarf as well! This revelation has huge implications for Galarian Darmanitan and Ditto. The former can't really use Dynamax at all without nerfing itself now, and while the latter is still a good revenge killer, its ability to countersweep is severely damaged. What other Pokemon does this affect majorly?
 
For Darmanitan, has anyone thought of anything that can help handle it? It seems like it's the star of the show in sword and shield.
I have been using Centiskorch as a Counter for its Flare Blitz and random fighting moves. Everything else is mostly countered by Ferro.
 
Do we have a single generic special wall to check elemental (Fire/Ice/Electric) damage in general? Is there anything better than Snorlax/Tar/Umbreon?
Not sure if it counts as a wall, but Rotom-H resists Fire/Ice/Electric

I can also vouch for Focus sash Reuniclus. With Alakazam gone, its the mon who has the highest spa who has magic guard. It also learns Thunder, which can kill Gyarados.
 
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I have been using Centiskorch as a Counter for its Flare Blitz and random fighting moves. Everything else is mostly countered by Ferro.
it is worth noting that darm can run both eq and stone edge, although the latter is rarely seen. but i'm pretty sure CBCBdarm OHKOs not very defensively invested sets.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Centiskorch: 391-460 (114.6 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
note that i have used weavile and volcarona for the calc, but i have adjusted the base stats accordingly. and the +1 is to emulate the ability.
Also, relying on prediction is not a good way to counter it, as a well predicted darm can OHKO your ferrothorn, and proceed to butcher your team.
 
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Perish Song

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Few thoughts on Ditto in SwSh Metagame

Ditto is a phenomenal Pokemon in this metagame due to its capability of revenge killing almost anything especially with nearly everything boosting their stats freely with Dynamax around, but I believe the existence of Dynamax hinders its potential little bit. As I observed, there are certain counterplays to Ditto. Those counterplays can be effective in different circumstances, I'll just put down the ones that I experienced on the ladder/tested myself.

1) Switch Out before Ditto comes in.

If you are running an offensive Dynamax mon that boosts its offensive stats, it is possible that the Ditto user may wait for your Dynamax to end, then switch in to use Dynamax on its own. This leads to my idea of using 1-2 turns of Dynamax then switching off. Nothing really forces you to use all three turns of your Dynamax, so if your opponent is indeed greedy, switch out after turn 2. The benefits will be much much better. That way your best case scenario is KO on 2 Pokemon and preventing a potential Ditto revenge sweep.

2) Stay in and take the hit.

Dynamax gives your Pokemon x2 HP. This means that if your HP is high enough, you may consider the option of trading your Dynamax with Ditto. So, as long as you are not overly boosted, you have chances to take a hit from Ditto, and effectively OHKO it back, granted they don't Dynamax. Few calcs regarding this;

252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill through Reflect: 255-300 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc shows you always live an Earthquake from Ditto at full HP. Reflect is used since it can be used as a substitute for Dynamax HP in calcs.

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 663-780 (183.1 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This calc is just your Excadrill hitting on Ditto.

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 330-393 (91.1 - 108.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

This calc is assuming that your Excadrill has used Max Steelsurge twice which results in +2 Defence, then Ditto came in to copy stats. You can still see that the counterplay exists.
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados through Reflect: 250-295 (75.5 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc assumes that Ditto came in on a +2 Attack Dynamax Gyarados (Moxie). As you can see you can live the hit to effectively remove Ditto from the game.

In return, you don't even need any attack boosts to remove a Ditto from the game. The calc below shows the Max Airstream damage on a Ditto.

252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 328-386 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I gave my examples based on what I personally experienced. People acknowledged Excadrill and Gyarados to be powerful Dynamax users, so posting relevant calcs about my assumption hopefully will help you with deciding if trading Dynamax with Ditto is a considerable option or not. Pretty sure we can apply the logic here in many 1 on 1 circumstance and see that many more Dynamaxed Pokemon can take a hit from Ditto and KO it in return.

But as I stated above, this is only if they don't Dynamax on the turn they switch in, while your Dynamax is still active. What if they Dynamax? Does any counterplay exist? Well, as we all know Ditto is heavily reliant on its Choice Scarf item to effectively revenge kill things. And it is an in-game mechanic that completely nullifies the effects of Choice items under Dynamax, both the boosts and the choice-lock status. This simply means that if Ditto chooses to Dynamax vs you, then it will be a Speed Tie at all times and I find this quite unreliable. Calcs will be quite similar, where you actually may deal more damage because of your abilities and items, such as Life Orb, which points out that Ditto is at a disadvantage facing against a Dynamax.
 
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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sword-shield-battle-mechanics-research.3655528/page-13#post-8287541

tl;dr based Anubis has confirmed beyond a shred of a doubt that Choice items are essentially embargoed while Dynamaxed or when using Gorilla Tactics, giving you free reign to change up your moves but not giving you the Choice boost in the meantime. This applies for Choice Scarf as well! This revelation has huge implications for Galarian Darmanitan and Ditto. The former can't really use Dynamax at all without nerfing itself now, and while the latter is still a good revenge killer, its ability to countersweep is severely damaged. What other Pokemon does this affect majorly?
So choice band does not work with gorilla tactics? Does that mean choice scarf doesn't as well? Maybe I'm just tired but that linked post doesn't make it super clear if that's what it means. If so that makes g-darm a lot more manageable
 
I'm very new to Gen 8 OU still so I'm not aware of all the tricks, but I really like putting Leftovers on my Dynamax Gyarados. Set is as follows:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

The spread was made so that Gyara outspeeds Timid Greninja in Gen 7 OU, so needs to be updated a little. Adamant allows Gyara to always 2HKO Toxapex even at +0, which is huge since it means Toxapex cannot just come in, Haze away the boosts and proceed to Recover.

252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It also means Gyara can put up a Sub (that needs three Scalds to be broken) and then proceed to spam Earthquake till Toxapex drops. Meaning you can save your Dynamaxing for another poke if needs be. Substitute also really pisses off these Ferrothorns throwing Leech Seeds or Thunder Wave, all the more than Earthquake does not make contact and does not proc Iron Barbs.
Of course, then you need to have someone else to handle Rotom-W

Since Gyara is usually in for a few turns, Leftovers really have time to kick in. See in below replay where they allow Gyara to live Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Gyara then proceeds to finish off the ennemy team. Yeah, it's super low ladder, but that's where I'm at for the time being.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1012519732
 
Do we have a single generic special wall to check elemental (Fire/Ice/Electric) damage in general? Is there anything better than Snorlax/Tar/Umbreon?
Assault Vest Cursola with Giga Drain/SDef Utility Corsola with Strength Sap. Goodra, Still. AV Dracozolt/-vish.
 

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sword-shield-battle-mechanics-research.3655528/page-13#post-8287541

tl;dr based Anubis has confirmed beyond a shred of a doubt that Choice items are essentially embargoed while Dynamaxed or when using Gorilla Tactics, giving you free reign to change up your moves but not giving you the Choice boost in the meantime. This applies for Choice Scarf as well! This revelation has huge implications for Galarian Darmanitan and Ditto. The former can't really use Dynamax at all without nerfing itself now, and while the latter is still a good revenge killer, its ability to countersweep is severely damaged. What other Pokemon does this affect majorly?
Other than Gorilla Tactics, we've known about the Choice items not working during Dynamax since I want to say Sunday at the earliest. Good to have closure on it, but other than Darm that was fixed very early in the beta testing.
 
scarf rotom-wash has been used for pretty much the same niche (minus some coverage) and has the bulk to take a hit from gyara
Sure, but it doesn't get double speed under Electric Terrain. It does most of what A-Raichu does, but Raichu provides a bit more speed and a bit more coverage for considerably less bulk. I think there are some niches that Raichu can cover that Rotom-W can't.
 
it is worth noting that darm can run both eq and stone edge, although the latter is rarely seen. but i'm pretty sure CBCBdarm OHKOs not very defensively invested sets.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Centiskorch: 391-460 (114.6 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
note that i have used weavile and volcarona for the calc, but i have adjusted the base stats accordingly. and the +1 is to emulate the ability.
Also, relying on prediction is not a good way to counter it, as a well predicted darm can OHKO your ferrothorn, and proceed to butcher your team.
I don't see a good reason to not run a bulky attack Centiskorch - it's speed is too low to abuse, and unlike Frosmoth, it doesn't get a speed boosting setup move. The only speed it should have invested is just enough to outspeed specific mons assuming it even needs that, with the rest in HP to bolster its reasonably respectable bulk. (Even if its a bit lower on the physical side).

CB G-Darm CAN still oneshot with EQ even fully bulky Centi, true, but it becomes a dice roll - even Adamant isn't a guarantee.

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 403-475 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 368-433 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

And scarf variants fail to KO at all.

It's certainly no counter, as it can't switch in on it at all aside from predicting a flare blitz and it is a dice roll if it'll live to KO back with Fire Lash, but it's also not exactly the worst option. Anything that can live and KO CB G-Darm back is a good mon in my book.

There's also been some talks of CB / Gorilla Tactics not actually stacking above, though I don't know how accurate that is. I've also heard how it might not be a 50% boost like CB is. More testing into the ability could tip the 1v1 more in favor of Centi.

... all assuming it doesn't run Stone Edge of course :D
 
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sword-shield-battle-mechanics-research.3655528/page-13#post-8287541

tl;dr based Anubis has confirmed beyond a shred of a doubt that Choice items are essentially embargoed while Dynamaxed or when using Gorilla Tactics, giving you free reign to change up your moves but not giving you the Choice boost in the meantime. This applies for Choice Scarf as well! This revelation has huge implications for Galarian Darmanitan and Ditto. The former can't really use Dynamax at all without nerfing itself now, and while the latter is still a good revenge killer, its ability to countersweep is severely damaged. What other Pokemon does this affect majorly?
Is this a mistype? Anubis' post mentions nothing about the interaction between Gorilla Tactics and Choice items.
 
Is this a mistype? Anubis' post mentions nothing about the interaction between Gorilla Tactics and Choice items.

It’s more confusing than anything. The post goes back to this post:

- Gorilla Tactics + Dynamax has no damage boost or move locking.

So, to be clearer, a Dynamaxed GT Darmanitan has its own Ability neutralized as long as it stays in Dynamax form. So, it won’t be locked in a single move anymore, but it will lose the GT damage boost.
 
It’s more confusing than anything. The post goes back to this post:




So, to be clearer, a Dynamaxed GT Darmanitan has its own Ability neutralized as long as it stays in Dynamax form. So, it won’t be locked in a single move anymore, but it will lose the GT damage boost.
Ah ok, so it's referring to the general interactions of GT under the condition of Dynamax. That makes more sense.
 
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I don't see a good reason to not run a bulky attack Centiskorch - it's speed is too low to abuse, and unlike Frosmoth, it doesn't get a speed boosting setup move. The only speed it should have invested is just enough to outspeed specific mons assuming it even needs that, with the rest in HP to bolster its reasonably respectable bulk. (Even if its a bit lower on the physical side).

CB G-Darm CAN still oneshot with EQ even fully bulky Centi, true, but it becomes a dice roll - even Adamant isn't a guarantee.

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 403-475 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 368-433 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

And scarf variants fail to KO at all.

It's certainly no counter, as it can't switch in on it at all aside from predicting a flare blitz and it is a dice roll if it'll live to KO back with Fire Lash, but it's also not exactly the worst option. Anything that can live and KO CB G-Darm back is a good mon in my book.

There's also been some talks of CB / Gorilla Tactics not actually stacking above, though I don't know how accurate that is. I've also heard how it might not be a 50% boost like CB is. More testing into the ability could tip the 1v1 more in favor of Centi.

... all assuming it doesn't run Stone Edge of course :D
Yeah the minute Centi becomes too common a counter , you just know that's gonna happen. Personally I feel that Flare Blitz just puts G-Darm over the edge.
 
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