Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

Status
Not open for further replies.
I just had a question, because I definitely don't understand something :

:sm/flareon:


The Special Defense is for living Modest Specs Pult's Draco Meteor after rocks (if running Leftovers).
What's the point in tanking a Draco Meteor ? I mean, if it's on the switch, you're dead next turn or after SR anyway, and if you were already facing Dragapult, what's the point in tanking it ? Is that to WoW or Wish ? I'm wondering.

Still a really great job for all the theorycrafting man !
 
Last edited:
I reeeeally like the idea of using Flareon as a viable mon this gen, but what niches does it have to be preferred over Rotom-Heat? Wish passing comes to mind, but is it worth dropping Rotom for that? Flareon also has better special bulk, but Rotom gets a ground immunity and much better defenses. Maybe it could have a niche on stall??? I don't actually understand anything about Stall but Wish pass and Stall being able to use more niche mons than other less extreme playstyles makes me think it might be the only place Flareon can thrive.
Also nice spreads TheDraugr!
 
Last edited:
What's the point in tanking a Draco Meteor ? I mean, if it's on the switch, you're dead next turn or after SR anyway, and if you were already facing Dragapult, what's the point in tanking it ? Is that to WoW or Wish ? I'm wondering.

Still a really great job for all the theorycrafting man !
Assuming that you switch in to rocks the previous turn and then Drag comes out and drops Draco, you can Wish and heal back up. That calc is quite strange to express. I should probably move the attack EVs into SpDef. Thank you for the complement!

I reeeeally like the idea of using Flareon as a viable mon this gen, but what niches does it have to be preferred over Rotom-Heat? Wish passing comes to mind, but is it worth dropping Rotom for that? Flareon also has better special bulk, but Rotom gets a ground immunity and much better defenses. Maybe it could have a niche on stall??? I don't actually understand anything about Stall but Wish pass and Stall being able to use more niche mons than other less extreme playstyles makes me think it might be the only place Flareon can thrive.
Flareon is currently quite niche. In fact, you would be better off using Rotom-H over it most of the time. Scarf Rotom-H can revenge-kill +1 Gyarados and bulkier variants can switch into G-Darm. Stall teams can run mons like G-Corsola to handle them. Flareon is a better answer to LO Clefable because it has recovery outside of Rest. That is really the only niche I see and it also has to compete with Centiskorch, which is also more viable than Flareon for it can set-up against defensive teams, though at the cost of solid recovery. Rotom-H is much easier to wear down than Flareon. You are correct that Flareon would be reserved to bulkier playstyles, but it would not be primarily used for Wish-passing as it has low HP compared to Vaporeon or Sylveon. I may have missed some stuff in this response.
 
I reeeeally like the idea of using Flareon as a viable mon this gen, but what niches does it have to be preferred over Rotom-Heat? Wish passing comes to mind, but is it worth dropping Rotom for that? Flareon also has better special bulk, but Rotom gets a ground immunity and much better defenses. Maybe it could have a niche on stall??? I don't actually understand anything about Stall but Wish pass and Stall being able to use more niche mons than other less extreme playstyles makes me think it might be the only place Flareon can thrive.
Also nice spreads TheDraugr!


Flareon, Sylveon, and Centiskorch

These 3 mons are able to act as specially defensive pivots/tanks. They are reliable when it comes to checking Fairy-type attackers such as Life Orb Clefable, and Hatterene. They can also handle Choice Specs Dragapult and Choice Specs Aegislash. Flareon and Sylveon both rely on Wish + Protect for recovery, while Centiskorch utilizes a Rest + Sleep Talk set. Flareon and Centiskorch rely on physical Fire-type moves to threaten Clefable, using Flare Blitz and Fire Lash respectively. Flare Blitz packs respectable power and Fire Lash has a 100% Defense drop rate to allow Centiskorch to avoid remaining passive. Centiskorch has further utility with Knock Off, which in this generation can be very nice as nothing is immune to Knock Off anymore. Sylveon relies on Mystical Fire to lower the special attack of opposing threats, and can also threaten Substitute users, such as Hydreigon, with Hyper Voice.
Basically it's what you have said. A LO Fable check, but with the Wish-passing bonus. Also, with 130 base Attack, Flare Blitz does good damage, even without investiment. Centiskorch only differs from it with the access to Knock Off and the lack of Wish, but both do almost the same job afaik
 
I don't think it's being underrated or anything, but can I just say how absolutely amazing heavy duty boots has been for teambuilding? Oh shoot this particular mon is pretty weak to hazards? Should I have two defoggers on my team as support? No sir, use...

H E A V Y D U T Y B O O T S

I'm excited to test this metagame over the next month or so to see how things go. I'll make a post later going into what I'm vibing with, and what I'm finding to be pretty eh.
 
Assuming that you switch in to rocks the previous turn and then Drag comes out and drops Draco, you can Wish and heal back up. That calc is quite strange to express. I should probably move the attack EVs into SpDef. Thank you for the complement!
I got you, and I guess Flareon won't be your primary check to spec's Dragapult. But even if, indeed, in some particular cases it can work to heal back an ally up to full (since the damages will be hardly diminushed by the Sp.Attack drop), it also sacks Flareon almost all the time. It's so situationnal that I'm pretty skeptical, but it might be worth the try. Thanks anyways mate !
 
Warning: The following post contains thinly-veiled Grimmsnarl propaganda. Read at your own risk.

So I've been playing around with a team I built since even before the Dynamax/GMax ban and I'm pretty happy to say that despite Grimmsnarl losing its amazing Gigantamax form it still holds up very well thanks to the reduced power level of a post-Dynamax metagame. This may be more of a team showcase than anything, but I feel like this team's structure does a great job of reflecting every single top-tier trend I've bumped into thus far:

https://pokepast.es/c9d2a26dba052eca

So first off, while Specs Dragapult is arguably one of the bigger losers of the Dynamax ban since it loses a lot of its leeway to switch up its moves, SubDisable+Hex Dragapult is arguably one of the biggest winners of the ban because now it does a much better job at battering slower teams with its great typing, offensive spread, and utility movepool. There isn't too much in the tier that would appreciate eating a status-boosted Hex from Dragapult, and it's generally just extremely consistent at what it does: spread burns, cripple shit, and break down stuff that isn't extremely bulky.

G-Darm is G-Darm: regardless of whether or not the Dynamax ban benefits it, it's still very safe to say that it is far and away the best mon in the tier, and it's pretty safe to say that it's always been a contender for that title. The only time G-Darm isn't consistent in its role as a Choice Scarfer is when it has to play the 50/50 against an opposing G-Darm lead, in which case an entire game can be determined during that very first turn. Protect scouting is invaluable against this thing whenever it comes out since it will literally always be Choice-locked unless it's running that gimmicky Zen Mode set. Any team that isn't full-blown Stall benefits from having Scarf G-Darm on it, without question: it's just that consistently good.

Corviknight is one of the biggest losers of the Dynamax ban, but it will always have a place in this tier as long as Excadrill has a place in this tier. It is one of our very few viable Defoggers and is our only true Excadrill counter, and it can provide invaluable U-turn support to get one of this team's other threats in. Its typing in a Zoneless meta is downright incredible, and while it can't set up entry hazards its setup sets are still a level of threatening that Skarmory could never quite match.

I hate to make these sorts of comparisons, but I'd argue that Seismitoad is basically this generation's Walmart-brand Landorus-Therian in that it offers an absurd amount of utility to any team that opts to run it. It kept Toxic where tons of other defensive stuff lost Toxic, and in a metagame where random lures with Grass moves are few and far between it is able to spread its status, pivot in on stuff, and get up Stealth Rock on an incredibly consistent basis. It offers a ton of set diversity, too: I opt to run a defensive variant with a slightly specialized EV spread for this team, but it can function quite well as an offensive Rocker on Rain teams, too. Getting Liquidation and Power Whip this generation expands its set diversity even further: now it can flex that higher Attack stat and punish would-be switchins to its special variants quite heavily, making its Swift Swim sets very difficult to check. It can force a ton of switches and get its Rocks up that way, and it can be quite tough to scout for. An Electric immunity, a Water immunity, a Dracovish check, a reliable Rocker, a physical or special sweeper, a tank... Toad can do it all - or it could do most of it with just one set - and it can do it all incredibly well.

Life Orb Clefable appreciates the removal of Dynamax somewhat since that effectively reduces the amount of things that can sponge hits from it while simultaneously reducing the number of things that can reliably 2HKO it drastically. That said, it also loses its ability to Dynamax as well, though this doesn't hurt it very much in the long run. This thing still wallbreaks like a champ, which is incredibly atypical of Clefable given its use as a predominantly-defensive mon in prior gens, but it's clear that offensive Clefable is here to stay. LO Clef is absolutely incredible and absurdly difficult to prepare for, and when it comes in cleanly it turns the game into an enormous prediction war since with a good prediction it can 2HKO anything in the tier.

Grimmsnarl is a weird case, in my opinion: it has tragically lost out on its amazing Gigantamax form, but the lowered power level of a Dynamaxless meta artificially increases Grimmsnarl's somewhat respectable bulk enough that it can flex its incredible support movepool much better. It still maintains the awesome utility of its Dual Screens set, but now it can better utilize Prankster Trick and Power Swap for additional shenanigans and its Bulk Up sets have a little extra staying power. The set I opted to run for this team combines the utility of its Taunt sets with the power of its Bulk Up sets and is to an extent the best of both worlds: Prankster Taunt+Sucker Punch is an incredibly scary combination that gives offensive teams an incredibly hard time and after some boosts Grimmsnarl hits ludicrously hard with the move. Spirit Break punishes switchins, scares Hydreigon out, and gives Grimmsnarl a way to "boost" its Special bulk, thus granting it more opportunities to set up.

Overall, I'm a huge fan of this meta. Dynamax getting banned has opened the door for a metric ton of new and creative options. And speaking of new and creative options, you guys need to start experimenting with Grimmsnarl some more. Though plenty of people have used it because of its utility sets, the thing's movepool is absolutely absurd and its amazing typing+ability give it some of the most incredible set diversity in this meta. Its potential is highly unexplored, in my opinion.
 
I would like to talk about a pretty good defensive core I saw recently:

Jellicent+Fairies

+
/:clefable:/:grimmsnarl:

I was just talking about Jellicent here and how good it is, and i've found some good partners for it, fairies. Water/Ghost/Fairy has beyond amazing type synergy, Water/Ghost deals with Fire types(such as the niche fires we were discussing,like Flareon, and Cinderace), Steel types(such as Copperajah and Drill), and Poison types(just poison coverage or choice locked poison types), while fairies deal with dark types in return, Grimmsnarl, Sylveon, and Clefable make for specially good partners, since they can check Dragapult and Hydreigon, a huge annoyance for Jellicent.

This core has few overlapping weaknesses, but Aegislash, Bisharp and Toxtricity can take advantage of it. So maybe Kommo-o, which can deal with those well, could be a good option to finish the trio.

I built a team using this core, and tried both Grimmsnarl and Clef as partners for my Jelli, and they both worked pretty well. I've liked Clefable a little more since Grimmsnarl's additional Dark typing invites LO Clefable that takes advantadge of Jelli's passive moveset.
 
Really today i can start playing OU ladder with a balance team of:
-Seismitoad
-Corviknight
-Clefable
-DracoVish
- Band Dragapulk
- Rotom-Mow, yes Mow, not Wash or Heat, Mow
Rotom and Dpulk form a volturn core and has working pretty nice rn, in 1350 aprox ladder. Also Mow check all Water Absorver for Dracovish letting switch free in all of this, pressuring with Leaf Storn and gaining momentum with volt swicht

Pastebin: https://pokepast.es/6b7153b96d65f726

I love the new meta without Dynamax, it was stupid mechanic, and rn the meta fells great
 
Following the Charizard discussion, the only thing I have to say is that if I ever try it on Rain, I wouldn,t use gay items like Boots or Umbrella and would just run Specs to do actual damage, protecting him from hazards with some other defoguer/spinner. Moltres was a good Specs user in Rain for 3 gens, Charizard is weaker than Moltres, but the Meta is also weaker in general. In any case, I don,t see the point of running offensive Heavy Duty Boots Mons, unless they have some really good set-up move ( like Frosmoth or Volcarona if it existed in Galar) or use some suport roler ( like Cinderace with Court Change). Leave that item for Mandibuzz and hazard-weak removers.
I'd just use Solar Power Zard. Once someone sets sun:

Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
Timid Nature
252 SpA/262 Spe/6 HP
-Fire Blast
-Focus Blast
-Air Slash/Hurricane
-Solarbeam

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Focus Blast to hit Tyranitar, Air Slash as STAB to hit Pelipper/Flareon/Centiskorch (Hurricane can make Char workable on rain), Solarbeam is kinda there but it can be nice to surprise some water mons.

A special nuke alright. Not optimal because it's reliant on a timed support, it's pretty susceptible to priority and there's many things to negate the nuke factor unlike some other prime attackers (Galar Darm and Vish for example) but the absence of it's Mega counterpart means there's little to work with Zard for now. Also no Chansey means special attacking nukes are much more likely to succeed now than ever.
 
Been experimenting with nasty plot lucario recently. I've found that a set of

250px-448Lucario.png

252 SPA, 252 SPE+
Life Orb

Nasty Plot
Psychic
Flash Cannon
Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere


does wonders in the current meta as a wall breaker. Pex is dealt with for most variants with some prior rocks damage, and this even snaps corsola with the dark pulse variety. flash cannon is there as a way to dig into potential fairy type shenanigans. Obviously scarfers pair well with this mon in order to catch things that it doesn't cover with it's missing move, think corsola/ferrothorn depending on that last moveslot. I've noticed a very physically biased metagame this generation, and a special wall breaking has surprised some players.
 
So I wanted to talk a bit about Trick Room.

First of all, I find Oranguru is a really interesting setter because it is normal type. The only other normal type Trick Room setter is Indeedee, which I honestly thinks belongs in a lower tier. (I'll save that rant for another time.) From my experiences, Oranguru is just generally better in most cases because of superior defensive stats. I also am discovering that pairing a normal Trick Room setter with a Ghost type setter is much better defensively than most setter cores. There is still the potential dark type weakness just because all the normal type setters are also psychic type. However, there are also some fairy type setters available. My point is that using Oranguru allows you to potentially create a core of Trick Room setters that has less common weaknesses than we typically see.

I'm still experimenting so I'm going to leave most of my bit on Trick Room abusers out for now. I just want to ask, does anyone know if Steelix or Copperajah is better for Trick Room? I can't decide.
 
So I wanted to talk a bit about Trick Room.

First of all, I find Oranguru is a really interesting setter because it is normal type. The only other normal type Trick Room setter is Indeedee, which I honestly thinks belongs in a lower tier. (I'll save that rant for another time.) From my experiences, Oranguru is just generally better in most cases because of superior defensive stats. I also am discovering that pairing a normal Trick Room setter with a Ghost type setter is much better defensively than most setter cores. There is still the potential dark type weakness just because all the normal type setters are also psychic type. However, there are also some fairy type setters available. My point is that using Oranguru allows you to potentially create a core of Trick Room setters that has less common weaknesses than we typically see.

I'm still experimenting so I'm going to leave most of my bit on Trick Room abusers out for now. I just want to ask, does anyone know if Steelix or Copperajah is better for Trick Room? I can't decide.
Copperajah hits significantly harder than Steelix. I'd lean towards Copperajah if I was going to use one of the two.

I'd also recommend giving Crawdaunt a look if you're not already using it. Imsosorrylol's Gen 7 Trick Room team proved just how terrifying Crawdaunt can be under Trick Room, and it helps patch up your problems with opposing Dark and Ghost types.

I think Escavalier is an underexplored option for Trick Room teams. Fantastic defensive typing and bulk, high Attack, good coverage, very hard to switch into.

Rhyperior is another obscure Trick Room abuser that I think could be an option worth exploring. EdgeQuake is unresisted in the current metagame and Rhyperior is the only remaining Pokemon to get STAB on it, along with Fire Punch to blow back Ferrothorn. On the other hand, its typing is still just as shit defensively as ever.
 
Alright you know what, I'm too hyped about this. It's time to make another post focusing on my absolute favorite playstyle in Generation 8 regional OU.

R A I N


From the threatening amount of new sweepers introduced to the absolute utility and in some cases safety that rain brings, it's not hard to see why so many people are using this playstyle (*cough* Dracovish *cough*), but I wanted to take a moment to focus on Pokemon who benefit from rain that received very specialized buffs in this new generation that have a chance at life under this playstyle. These Pokemon could have benefitted either in the form of access to new moves, dexit removing a lot of options to handle it, or just having the metagame be kind to it. I will also be mentioning other options for the Pokemon to use that aren't on the primary sets. Let's dive on in!

Dhelmise

Dhelmise @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Liquidation
- Power Whip
- Switcheroo / Earthquake / Shadow Claw / Phantom Force / Rock Slide​

Dhelmise (A Grass / Ghost type Pokemon) somehow got access to the coveted Water type Physical move - Liquidation. With a base Attack stat of 131, a Choice Band, and under rain, this hits like an absolute truck. Steelworker essentially gives Anchor Shot (a base 80 power trapping move) STAB, while also preventing double switching tactics and allowing you to regain momentum from an opponent's switch-in. STAB Power Whip also handles numerous would-be switch ins. The last moveslot is mostly filler depending on the specific coverage needs of your team, tailor it to how you need it. Unless you feel like running Switcheroo to get rid of your Choice Band.

Dhelmise also has access to a few new tools not mentioned in this set, and also buffed tools as well. Dhelmise has access to the newly buffed Rapid Spin to take care of hazards and speed creep certain bulky mons with the +1 boost. Along with this, Dhelmise has access to both Swords Dance (for a boosting set under Trick Room), and Switcheroo for tricking an item onto a specific Pokemon. So why would you use Dhelmise right now? Here's the tl;dr simplified version.

  • Access to new tools such as Liquidation, Switcheroo, and a buffed Rapid Spin
  • Pursuit is no longer in the game, and Knock Off has vastly lowered distribution
  • 70 / 100 / 90 Bulk along with 131 Base Attack is much more impressive in this regional metagame, many of the options used to handle it were nuked with Dexit
  • Access to a third STAB with a high powered trapping move is absolutely critical in this fast paced metagame.

Jolteon

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch​

Jolteon started off strong in old generations, but slowly started to lose out to different picks over the years due to being outclassed. With Dexit removing a lot of the things that outclass it, 110 Special Attack and 130 Speed are looking far better this generation. Under Rain, perfect accuracy STAB Thunder hits like an absolute truck, and having a 30% paralysis chance is also a great option. Shadow Ball as coverage is even better right now than previously due to the rampant Ghost types and Psychic types running around the tier, and access to Weather Ball allows Jolteon to nuke options under rain that it normally wouldn't be able to handle such as Excadrill. Life Orb is the best set for Jolteon due to the ubiquity of Ground types looking to get a free switch-in under rain, as the ability to switch from Thunder to Weather Ball is crucial for this niche to work. Volt Switch is great for keeping up momentum as well. Having a Bolt Beak immunity is wonderful too.

  • Access to 100 BP Water move in Weather Ball and Shadow Ball coverage is great in the current meta.
  • 110 Special Attack and 130 Speed is a lot more impressive in the OU Regional Dex metagame.
  • Dexit nuked a lot of the options that outclassed it, and a lot of the options that handled it.

Noivern

Noivern @ Expert Belt
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Thunder / Shadow Ball
- Super Fang / U-Turn (Thanks Zukrad for other set options)​

Now you're probably thinking, why use Noivern when Dragapult exists? Both have Infiltrator, and Dragapult has a 3 point SpA edge over Noivern. The answer is simple. Noivern has access to a slew of unique tools that Dragapult doesn't get including STAB Hurricane (never missing under Rain), utility in Super Fang, U-Turn, Taunt, and Defog, and it isn't weak to Ghost type moves (while still being able to nail them super effectively with access to Shadow Ball). Also Noivern isn't affected by Stick Webs (Thanks qways ) Super Fang in particular is great for wearing down Special walls that Dragapult or others wouldn't be able to wear down otherwise (Super Fang removes 50% of a Pokemon's HP). Noivern also has a bevy of other support options and some additional offensive options that will be listed below.

  • Access to STAB Hurricane that never misses under Rain and ignores screens and subs with Infiltrator.
  • Immune to Sticky Webs unlike Dragapult who is slowed down
  • Access to Super Fang to wear down Special walls that other Special attackers can't handle.
  • Access to various other utility options like Taunt, U-Turn, Tailwind, and Defog.
  • Neutral to Ghost type attacks while being able to hit them super effectively.
  • 123 is a fantastic speed tier.

What are you waiting for? Go try out some of these Pokemon! Let the rain wash over you!
Unless Bulbapedia and Serebii are both wrong, Noivern doesn't get Thunder, so IDK why you have it slashed in next to Shadow Ball.

Regarding Dhelmise, would it be worthwhile to gear it specifically for anti-Trick Room purposes with an Iron Ball to help it underspeed stuff like Hatterene? Or is that too memey for a Rain team considering you give up the Choice Band boost to do it?

(Also Rain solidarity high-five.)
 
I dont know how soon its appropriate to talk about the next ban but darm is just fucking stupid. The scarf set easily sweeps teams after some chip dmg unless you are running a whole bunch of fat mons but if ur using a fat team you get 6-0 by the band set. The instant power it gets is just dumb and it needs to go ASAP.

e: i forgot to mention this stupid ass flinch chance if god forbid you are actually able to take a hit
 
Last edited:
Copperajah hits significantly harder than Steelix. I'd lean towards Copperajah if I was going to use one of the two.

I'd also recommend giving Crawdaunt a look if you're not already using it. Imsosorrylol's Gen 7 Trick Room team proved just how terrifying Crawdaunt can be under Trick Room, and it helps patch up your problems with opposing Dark and Ghost types.

I think Escavalier is an underexplored option for Trick Room teams. Fantastic defensive typing and bulk, high Attack, good coverage, very hard to switch into.

Rhyperior is another obscure Trick Room abuser that I think could be an option worth exploring. EdgeQuake is unresisted in the current metagame and Rhyperior is the only remaining Pokemon to get STAB on it, along with Fire Punch to blow back Ferrothorn. On the other hand, its typing is still just as shit defensively as ever.
I realize that Copperajah has better attack and an excellent move pool. The thing with Steelix is it gets Body Press at 200 base defense. It also gets Head Smash and Rock Head, which basically makes it more powerful Stone Edge. So with Head Smash and STAB Earthquake, it can use the same ground/rock coverage that you mentioned with Rypherior with better defensive typing. Or it can Sheer Force Psychic Fangs and/or Crunch to open up Body Press more. I'm not saying Steelix is better or worse. I'm just saying that it's an oversimplification to say Copperajah is more powerful. The thing that would make Steelix most relevant here is Body Press.

Crawdaunt is a pokemon I have really liked trying in past gens. I might try it again.

Escavalier seems like a more defensive oriented option to me than other steel type attackers. The biggest thing in its favor as a Trick Room attacker is Megahorn, which has a good deal of types that resist it.
 
I realize that Copperajah has better attack and an excellent move pool. The thing with Steelix is it gets Body Press at 200 base defense. It also gets Head Smash and Rock Head, which basically makes it more powerful Stone Edge. So with Head Smash and STAB Earthquake, it can use the same ground/rock coverage that you mentioned with Rypherior with better defensive typing. Or it can Sheer Force Psychic Fangs and/or Crunch to open up Body Press more. I'm not saying Steelix is better or worse. I'm just saying that it's an oversimplification to say Copperajah is more powerful. The thing that would make Steelix most relevant here is Body Press.

Crawdaunt is a pokemon I have really liked trying in past gens. I might try it again.

Escavalier seems like a more defensive oriented option to me than other steel type attackers. The biggest thing in its favor as a Trick Room attacker is Megahorn, which has a good deal of types that resist it.
Fair point on Steelix but I think you're underselling Escavalier a little. A Pokemon with Base 135 Attack that can afford to run a +Attack nature is hardly defensive-oriented. It's going to leave big dents in just about anything. It's also one of few Pokemon who retained access to Knock Off, and none of the things that can take a Megahorn are going to like switching into Close Combat or Knock Off. I admit I haven't really experimented much with this Pokemon myself, but I intend to. This thing seems like quite the frightening breaker, and a good fit for a Trick Room team.
 
A core that I have been having fun with post D-max:


Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball

Max Def Chandelure can come in on any of Darm-G's moves aside from EQ (obvs), and threaten the OHKO with flamethrower in return. At full health, Scarf Darm even fails to OHKO with EQ. It helps to have protect-scouting in the rest of the team but that seems to be quite popular at the moment regardless.

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 84-100 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- 6.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 23-27 (7 - 8.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Plus, due to its ridiculous SpA it can do decent damage to switch-ins uninvested. If you get a sub-up, attacking checks like dracovish will be taking a decent chunk, too. Lastly, Chandelure can also take on the bulky fire, psychic and fairy types that have been popping up around the place.

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect

It's already been pointed out in this thread but this is a good mon rn. The biggest threats to Chandelure at the moment are Hydreigon and Dragapult, which Sylveon handles with ease. Wish support is really nice, too.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Yo I know someone pointed this out like a few pages ago but the GOON is absolute flames. I've seen people talk about only using it on Webs but tbh I've just been using it on a bulky offense team as my breaker and it's put in a ton of work. The meta is definitely starting to gravitate towards bulky offense, with Ferro, Clef, Corvi, Pex, and Toad remaining staples and shit like SpD Skorch, Vap, Sylveon, Gastro, and Jellicent etc. starting to get more usage, Obstagoon legit just tears these common defensive cores apart. Stuff like Jellicent not running Scald and garbage Corsola let it in pretty much in for free. With all Clef's being either SpD or LO, Facade is like a 75% chance to kill from full. There really isn't anything that can just outright comfortably switch into Obstagoon, and the few that can stomach hits just get knocked anyway.

Obstruct is definitely the best filler move imo. I've seen some dudes run Parting Shot but that seems pointless to me considering most of the shit that forces out Goon are faster than it anyway, and the few fat mons that force it out aren't really crippled much by it. Obstruct is fantastic for scouting out revenge killers like Darm/Scarf Driller, as well as messing around with something like Brave Bird Corvi that might try to stall you out. Sub Disable Pult also just gets completely cucked by Goon too. It can't touch you with Hex and even if it tries to Disable Knock to stall you can play around it pretty easily with Obstruct. It sits in a great Speed and can comfortably run Adamant, although I think it's definitely worth running Jolly on some teams for Driller just because that Pokemon is broken. Really sucks this mon doesn't get priority or SD though otherwise it'd be insane.

Overall this Pokemon slaps. More people shoudld definitely run it because post Dynamax this Pokemon definitely has great potential as a breaker. Also people sleep on Bisharp that Pokemon is disgusting too. Actually keep sleeping tbh I can't be bothered facing it.
 
Last edited:
I have used obstagoon aswell. And while it certainly is viable, i think conkeldurr is the better guts wallbreaker. I used conkeldurr and obstagoon on the same team and preferred to switch my conk in. conkeldurr having drain punch is extremely useful.
 
I have used obstagoon aswell. And while it certainly is viable, i think conkeldurr is the better guts wallbreaker. I used conkeldurr and obstagoon on the same team and preferred to switch my conk in. conkeldurr having drain punch is extremely useful.
Conkeldurr also has a form of priority in mach punch and more bulk and utility in defog... knock off is a good weapon in Goon instead..
 
I dont know how soon its appropriate to talk about the next ban but darm is just fucking stupid. The scarf set easily sweeps teams after some chip dmg unless you are running a whole bunch of fat mons but if ur using a fat team you get 6-0 by the band set. The instant power it gets is just dumb and it needs to go ASAP.

e: i forgot to mention this stupid ass flinch chance if god forbid you are actually able to take a hit
I gotta disagree, Garm, although strong, has some pretty decent checks, that can even fit on offensive teams, such as the very common Rotom-Heat, if you end up getting swept because your Rotom got chipped, than that's a misplay, playing recklessly with your Garm check is one of the easiest ways to lose a game. Banded Garm loses the sweeping/cleaning potential for more damage output and for more wallbreaking potential, but the lost speed really hurts it, since 317 max speed is not that good against offensive teams, and against fatter teams, than there's just a loot of place to add a Garm check, sometimes more than one check can be used. The rocks weakness also doesn't help.
Dracovish is, in my opinion, muuch more over-centralizing and much more "broken".

But yeah the flinch chance sucks.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Image result for appletun

I'd just like to state how fun Appletun is on stall. Even past being a thing that doesn't insta-die to Fishious Rend, it matches up well vs stuff like both common Rotom forms, Seismitoad, Cinderace, Dugtrio, Barraskewda, so on and so forth.

Appletun (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Recover

This is my preferred set: You eat Vish blows, then you annoy the foe with Leech Seed and Recover spam. Apple Acid lets you wear down opposing fat mons like Galarian Corsola. This guy is so hella thicc that it can even be an emergency Darm check if it's already worn down enough, and while that particular role is admittedly very situational and won't happen 99% of games the fact that a Grass/Dragon type can even do that at all is still something to be admired imo. You can criticize it all you want, it won't stop it from str8 applin'

I might make a dedicated post on stall in the current meta sometime soon tbh. It's a very interesting playstyle with heaps of potential
 
Conkeldurr also has a form of priority in mach punch and more bulk and utility in defog... knock off is a good weapon in Goon instead..
Just want to point out that Conkeldurr does not have more bulk then obstagoon, even though he LOOKS more beefy. His special defense is much lower, and his defense is BARELY higher.
92 Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 139-165 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 222-262 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

92 Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 132-156 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Obstagoon: 186-220 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I just used Abomasnow cuz he's right there on the calc)
Also tangent, defog conk is pretty bad in my humble opinion
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top