STAB STABmons [Mamoswine yOINKED]

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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There's been a little bit of a shuffle in tier leadership recently, and yours truly is the new STABmons tier leader.

As we are very close to the next DLC dropping the STABmons council does not plan to make any significant updates either to the tier itself or to our resources prior to that. Once we get our new toys we will do our best to act swiftly where appropriate and think carefully where necessary, all while considering community input.

We are looking for a fifth member for the council. If you are interested, active, and feel you are qualified feel free to PM me here or on Showdown. This decision won't necessarily be made immediately.

in other news...

:ss/cinderace:
Libero is officially released! While Cinderace's most potent tool is still V-Create, the boost in power on its coverage, and to a lesser extent the defensive utility, from changing type is a huge buff.

Cinderace is a definite potential candidate for a ban, but we're going to give it a little time in the new DLC meta to see how it plays.

:ss/rillaboom:
Rillaboom also had its Hidden Ability released. Grassy Surge certainly increased Rillaboom's viability, turning it into a versatile and potent threat. However it hasn't reached Cinderace's levels of scary, for which I am grateful. Rillaboom seems able, at first glance, to be able to run many sets, including Band, Scarf, AV, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, and SubSeed. However it will likely have issues with Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Toxapex being common.

:inteleon: This thing also had its Hidden Ability released and... nobody cares.

Let us know what you think about these newly buffed mons and what you think their most potent sets will be!
 
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With the release of the DLC having an assortment of new moves, reintroducing new Pokemon, and a few new comers, STABmons will surely get a large change.
First and formost, Urshifu.
While kind of underwhelming and overrated in regular OU, having similar firepower to Terrakion but less speed, a noticeable difference here is Urshifu’s ability Unseen Fist, which ironically works really well with High Jump Kick.
With Unseen Fist, Urshifu will ignore protect for all its own moves, so Protect no longer screws over HJK.
As far as which form you should choose, both actually have identical movepools (which I don’t know if that’s a bug or not).
Regardless, Urishifu-SS will have STAB on its Dark moves to beat Ghosts and Urshifu-RS will a better defensive typing and STAB on its water moves.
This thing in both forms will be pretty difficult to deal with.

However
:Gengar: :Salazzle:
These 2 now have access to Shell Side Arm, Galarian Slowbro’s signature move.
This move essentially is Download the move, but because it’s a special move instead of an ability, it always checks your special attack.
If you face against Chansey, the move will hit on the physical side while still using your better SpA.
Not only does it switch between being Poison Psychic and Poison Psyshock on the fly, but it’s not a bullet and it can also Poison.
Having Gengar/Salazzle or SSA banned won’t be a huge surprise.

:Mamoswine:
Among the Ice types that didn’t get Triple Axel and are not banned, Mamoswine (and Beartic) now get it in STABmons.
Cloyster also gets it, but Skill Link will have 125 BP for Icicle Spear anyways, while Triple Axel will have 120 BP when all moves hit.
For Mamoswine, this means that it has a much stronger Ice STAB.
Sure it has an effective accuracy of 72.9%, but there are moves with worse accuracy and how Triple Axel works, that inaccuracy is more forgiving.

:Scyther:
Unironically, Scyther really benefited from the DLC in STABmons.
With Technician, Dual Wingbeat has 60 BP for each hit, making it a Flying type version of Double Iron Bash, just without the high flinch chance.
Scyther in general also has pretty decent stats. A solid speed tier and good power.

:Dragapult: :Aegislash: :Mimikyu:
A fantastic new move in Poltergeist was added to the DLC, and while it was distributed to plenty of Pokemon, they weren’t for these Ghost types didn’t.
With Poltergeist and Moongeist Beam, Ghosts have very powerful STABs on both sides, and they don’t have Pursuit to worry about.
 
These 2 now have access to Shell Side Arm, Galarian Slowbro’s signature move.
This move essentially is Download the move, but because it’s a special move instead of an ability, it always checks your special attack.
If you face against Chansey, the move will hit on the physical side while still using your better SpA.
Not only does it switch between being Poison Psychic and Poison Psyshock on the fly, but it’s not a bullet and it can also Poison.
Having Gengar/Salazzle or SSA banned won’t be a huge surprise.
Has it actually been confirmed one way or another that it always draws from Special Attack? Most of what I've heard says that it checks if acting as a regular special attack (SpA->SpD) or a regular physical attack (Att->Def) would be stronger, then uses that.
 

drampa's grandpa

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Huge post incoming!
Gonna break this up into three parts
The council has been discussing the new additions brought to our metagame, and here are some thoughts so far!

:ss/gengar: or
USE THIS FOR STAB POST.jpg

Shell Side Arm's mechanics are still a little up in the air due to insufficient testing, but as we understand it now it uses the users higher offensive stat and the defenders lower defensive stat. This is incredible for breaking non-mixed walls.

However it's only 90 BP and more importantly, Poison type. Poison resists and immunities are common, and there are few Pokemon that can abuse the move well.

The one Pokémon that this understanding of the mechanics pretty inarguably breaks is Gengar. Already a potential suspect pre-DLC due to its incredible power and disruptive potential, we were hoping that it would gain some increased counterplay with this release. What it gained instead is a move that lets it easily bypass Chansey and other Special walls.

+2 252 Atk Gengar Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-459 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gengar Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (41.5 - 49%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This frees up space that might be spent on Substitute (still a great move btw) or Taunt for something like Focus Blast, making Tyranitar less reliable as well.

The council is leaning towards a Gengar suspect. However this is not currently our top priority.

:ss/porygon-z: or
300px-Boomburst_VII.png


Boomburst is notorious for being super powerful and breaking various mons in various OMs. 140 BP with no drawbacks is sort of ridiculous.

With Porygon-Z dropping we have a familiar new abuser in the meta with a whole new level of power. This guy (computer virus? Whatever it is) can 2hko Chansey WITHOUT hitting its weaker defense.

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 298-352 (42.3 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Porygon-Z can also run Scarf, Nasty Plot [insert various items here], or even Fighting Memory for those pesky Tyranitar which are otherwise the only reliable walls. Nasty Plot can run a variety of sets including 3 attacks, SubNP, Double Dance, NP on a Choice set (this was a thing last gen, but I think it's a bit worse now thanks to more ghosts in the meta) and probably others.

However Porygon-Z without Boomburst is just good, and not crazy insane stresh-let-us-ban-this broken. Other abusers of Boomburst are less standout, however there were some calls for a Sylveon suspect prior to the DLC due both to the centralization of the metagame around it and the difficulty of countering it. Post-DLC the presence of Magearna and Chansey will likely make Sylveon significantly more manageable, both as competition and as counters.

The council is strongly leaning towards a Porygon-Z ban over Boomburst, and consider it a top priority.

:ss/cinderace: or
V-create_VII.png


V-Create has been rather controversial for awhile, and we've recently had two new incredible abusers added in Libero Cinderace and Marowak-Alola. Both have the means to easily bypass many common Fire resists such as Toxapex and Tyranitar and V-Create nukes even the fattest non-resists.

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola V-create vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 300-354 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's difficult to build and play against V-Create spammers, however Cinderace is especially restrictive thanks to its great speed tier and Libero. With its wide coverage and high power level it is effective and restrictive against every almost every playstyle.

We are looking more at V-Create than Cinderace right now. This is decently high in priority for us to deal with.

urshifu-single-strike.png


Wicked Blow is tearing up the metagame right now. It is the equivalent of a 120 BP move with no drawback that ignores Attack drops and Defense boosts. It is an excellent offensive type, forming superb dual type coverage with a number of other types including Fighting, Ground, Dark, Steel, and others. It is also extremely spammable on its own, unlike say Close Combat, as it has no immunities and fairly few good physically bulky resistances. There are a large number of abusers of this move due to Dark types tendency to be both offensive and physical. Tyranitar, Krookodile, Crawdaunt, Obstagoon, and Weavile all hit absurdly hard with this move, several of them being near impossible to wall without niche picks.

This is clearly a case of the move being an issue rather than the abusers.

I don't mention Urshifu because, while proving to be a great mon and abuser of Wicked Blow, a ban on the move would not effect it directly.

This is currently probably our top priority behind Porygon-Z / Boomburst.

...............................................
A note: while we have been discussing this in the council chat, pretty much all of the meta analysis, as well as the prioritization comes only from me. Some of the things, notably Shell Side Arm, has been pushed by me more than anyone else.

I encourage the other council members to give input of course, and other community members.
A lot of these will have been discussed in the Discord. I'm posting them here too both for posterity and because I think they're cool :3
urshifu-single-strike.png


Urshifu is honestly incredible. I undersold it super hard when I first saw its stats. It can run so many sets, and run them really well. I can see this being broken once we figure out the meta a litte, because it is just so hard to wall.

Urshifu @ Life Orb / Blackglasses / Shed Shell
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn / Poison Jab / Mach Punch
- No Retreat

This is a fairly standard No Retreat set. I prefer Close Combat and U-Turn

Urshifu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn / Parting Shot
- Poison Jab / Iron Head

Scarf Urshifu. While it regrets living in a crowded Speed tier, it still hits hard, and Unseen Fist is actually really nice for a Scarfer because opponents can't use Protect and clones to scout its moves. Urshifu is one of the first really good scarfers I've seen in STABmons this generation, and I'm glad to have it.
:ss/indeedee:
Indeedee (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Boomburst
- Teleport / Trick
- Mystical Fire / Dazzling Gleam

This set is super hardwalled by Tyranitar, but if the opponent doesn't have that it nukes pretty much everything.
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Psychic (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 279-328 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The rest is all normal Indeedee stuff.
:ss/azumarill:
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD (whatever)
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet
- Surging Strikes
- Play Rough

Azumarill works well as a check for Urshifu and the various Dark types which are infesting the metagame. It is decently bulky meaning it can tank a couple Wicked Blows from most Pokemon from full, and has an excellent typing. Flip Turn was amazing for it as it can work as a bulky offensive pivot, hitting stuff hard and going into something unwallable, which your team probably has three of at the moment. Surging Strikes is also really cool to het herd.

The lack of room for coverage on this set is pretty nasty. Once defensive mons start being run again, it might be good to drop a Water move (Surging Strike probably, or Aqua Jet depending on the team, just not Flip Turn) for Superpower or Ice Punch so that Ferrothorn or Amoongus can't just come in and eat your hits quite as freely.
:ss/Porygon-Z:

This thing has a bunch of sets. The big one everyone knows is Specs. 2hkos Chansey after rocks. I'm going to post a couple others because that's really, really not all it can do.

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam / Nasty Plot / Psychic
- Trick

This set works both to hit hard and as a revenge killer / cleaner. It's a pretty superb scarfer thanks to its power level, although it has some drawbacks such as a sub-100 speed tier, common immunities to its STAB, and no pivoting. I recommend giving it a try!

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Boomburst
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock / Ice Beam

Time for the first of many Nasty Plot variants! This one runs Sub specifically to make defensive mons even more sad. I think Life Orb is pretty clearly the better option due to enabling the 2hko on Tyranitar at +2, but lefties gives you some longevity. Coverage move is coverage move, it hits things Boom doesn't like Gengar and Kommo-o.

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility / Rapid Spin
- Boomburst
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball / Psychic / Ice Beam

This set is a Double Dance! Either boost to break or boost to go fast. Rapid Spin doesn't really give you enough of a boost to outpace common Scarfers, but brings some nice utility to the table. Coverage is once again coverage. Can't hit everything well when Normal + Sound is your primary.

Porygon-Z @ Fighting Memory
Ability: Download
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Boomburst
- Nasty Plot
- Ice Beam / Shadow Ball

This is probably the weirdest set here. It is specifically targeting Tyranitar and Chansey. The Attack EVs guarantee the 2hko on Chansey after Stealth Rock at +1, while Tyranitar is always either 2hko'd or OHKO'd no matter how you EV (depending on the Download boost).

This is the only set I'm running Download on because it's the only set that runs Mixed and can actually use an Attack boost. Not only that, it really wants that boost to KO the aforementioned walls. This set is more a lure than a standard set, but it's still decent, although how usable it is depends on how common Ttar (very common) and Chansey (not very common right now) are.
:ss/Weavile:
Last mon!

Weavile @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Triple Axel
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

This is really simple. You spam Weavile's incredible STABs against the right mons. Urshifu, especially Rapid Strike, forces you out but gets chipped fairly easily. Wicked Blow and Triple Axel (assuming 3 hits ;-;7) both hit really hard. This is a really fun set.
Here's a core I was building around before the DLC dropped. Will it be as good ¹now? Who knows. I think it likely will be once the tier settles a little.

:ss/cinderace: + :ss/indeedee:

The idea of this core is for Cinderace to be able to spam Psychic + Fire coverage to KO... basically everything. Cinderace's Zen Headbutt is boosted to be super powerful and spammable under Psychic Terrain, and it loves not having to worry about priority given that it outspeeds almost everything unboosted naturally.

Indeedee hits decently hard but tends not to put in a ton of work other than keeping terrain up. It's there because it has Psychic Surge and not because of much else.

:cinderace:
Cinderace @ Life Orb / Choice Band / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- V-create / Fire Lash / Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Bulk Up / Sucker Punch / High Jump Kick

Being able to switch moves is really useful for Cinderace, so I prefer Life Orb to Choice Band. V-Create is the best Fire move, but not having to switch is nice for a mon weak to rocks so the others are worth considering. U-Turn hits Tyranitar, Hydreigon, and is a pivot move. Last move is mostly filler. Sucker Punch might look weird but this set can work when not in Psychic Terrain as well and can revenge Pokemon such as Scarf Gengar

Boots are an option for those who really hate passive damage but the damage drop is noticeable and you lose the incredible damage output which is the reason to use this set.

:indeedee:
Indeedee (M) @ Life Orb / Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike / Expanding Force (maybe? TF does this do?) / Terrain Pulse... obviously I'm adding new moves now and I don't really know what they do but they seem maybe useful.
- Boomburst
- Healing Wish
- Teleport / Mystical Fire

Indeedee can play a slightly more offensive role or a more supportive one depending on your item. In my experience Terrain Extender seemed more effective, but honestly it does about the same thing no matter what. Healing Wish and Teleport are both good for momentum, and Healing Wish can bring Cinderace (or another Pokemon) back to full which is really helpful for continuing your assault.

---
This core appreciates hazard support; removal, setting, and offensive pressure to keep hazards down. Cinderace can get worn down by Stealth Rock + Life Orb really quickly. I paired other fast offensive mons with this core, stuff that appreciated Psychic terrain but wouldn't be too reliant on it. I tried Gengar and Terrakion. I considered Zeraora but didn't test it out.
 

Attachments

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Note that the reintroduction of various Pokémon allows their exclusive moves, that previously could not be selected, to be usable in battle.
New moves, italics denotes moves that are new altogether:

Normal
Conversion, Conversion2, Milk Drink, Head Charge, Terrain Pulse

Fighting
Coaching

Flying
Dual Wingbeat

Bug
Skitter Smack

Rock
Meteor Beam

Ground
Bonemerang, Shore Up, Scorching Sands

Ghost
Shadow Bone, Poltergeist

Poison
Shell Side Arm, Corrosive Gas

Steel
Steel Roller

Water
Flip Turn, Surging Strikes

Fire
Fiery Dance, Burning Jealousy

Grass
Jungle Healing, Grassy Glide

Electric
Rising Voltage

Ice
Triple Axel

Psychic
Kinesis, Expanding Force

Dragon
Dragon Hammer, Scale Shot

Dark
Lash Out, Wicked Blow

Fairy
Floral Healing, Fleur Cannon, Misty Explosion
 
After spending the last half an hour trying to see what could be cool with the new toys, I've compiled the ones I thought deserved a shout below. I'll also share my opinion on the problematic stuff drampa mentioned.

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet / Superpower
- Sucker Punch
- Wicked Blow

Crawdaunt @ Black Glasses
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Crabhammer
- Dragon Dance / Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch / Aqua Jet

Crawdaunt seems to be one of the biggest winners with the DLC, gaining a bunch of cool moves that make it even more unpredictable and much more threatening.



Sharpedo @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat / Protect
- Earthquake / Protect

Pretty self-explanatory, just Sharpedo doing Sharpedo things and abusing the new moves.


Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Shell Side Arm
- Clanging Scales
- Clangorous Soul
- Scale Shot

Fairly certain this isn't the optimal set to run but Shell Side Arm Dragalge hits reaally hard and this is the set I think is most fun to run.


Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Soft-Boiled
- Transform
- Teleport

Glare + Transform seems pretty fun to try out.


Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Misty Explosion
- Freeze-Dry / Encore
- Nasty Plot / Encore

Misty Explosion seemed really useless until I realized Ninetales-Alola can use it really well to setup Aurora Veil and be much harder to deal with as it can now not only block Defoggers like Corviknight but also just straight up chunk them.


Slowbro @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike

Just a very nice defensive option if you're in need of a special wall that isn't Chansey.


Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scorching Sands / Scald
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Knock Off / Toxic / Flip Turn

Huuuuuge buff this guy got. Problem is picking what moves you wanna use.


Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Corrosive Gas
- Strength Sap
- Shell Side Arm

Another good Regenerator user just updated with the latest techs.

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- King's Shield

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind


Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Earthquake / Knock Off / Superpower


Scyther @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- U-turn
- Thief
- Fell Stinger


Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn


Lilligant (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid
- Strength Sap
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder


Clawitzer @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Terrain Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Dragon Pulse
- Water Pulse


Keldeo @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Water Spout
- Flip Turn
- Secret Sword
- Water Shuriken / Hydro Pump


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Teleport


Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Flip Turn
- Toxic
- Recover
- Haze

Let's be clear here, while Shell Side Arm is a great move on itself it isn't busted by any means and Gengar is what really pushes it over the line. It already had no switchins pre-DLC and with this drop it gets the tools to bypass the new special walls as well. It has the broken NP set that has no counters and then still has the option of running some of the other unpredictable options such as Specs Hex, Baneful Bunker, Will-o-wisp...
It is, in my opinion, deserving of a quickban.

Porygon-Z is too good and too versatile. Not as good as Gengar by any means but has the ability to take over any game with one of its many great sets. Losing Z-Conversion does hurt it a bit but it's still only really walled by Chansey and strains building quite a bit even when you're only considering Scarfed or Specs sets.
I think a quickban is the most appropriate measure but a suspect isn't a terrible idea, although it's very likely it will get banned regardless and the time could be used focusing on Wicked Blow or other things we haven't seen yet.
V-Create lost a lot of value with the new set. Its most popular answers all got buffed in meaningful ways such as Tyranitar and Hippowdon getting Shore Up, Toxapex getting Flip turn, Seismitoad getting everything it ever wanted, Slowbro... It should be kept an eye on but it's not nearly as relevant as the other issues.
Ideally, with both PZ and Gengar banned this would be the only thing on the watchlist as it is a very very strong move but we'll still have to see what will be the faeries roles (especially looking at Magearna) but it's likely to be deemed as problematic down the line.

And congratz vivalospride on the council spot!
 

In The Hills

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1592775021573.gif

Quickban Update #8
The STABmons council has decided to quickban Gengar! Gengar had been on the council’s radar from before DLC due to its Nasty Plot, Substitute, and Choice Specs sets each having very limited counterplay, and it has proven to be just as if not more of an issue now, and as a result it has unanimously been quickbanned.

This is the first of many things we plan to vote on in the very near future, so expect updates soon!

Tagging The Immortal and Kris.
 
Ive been using Type: Null for a while to pretty great success.
Now, with the addition of the Urshifu moves, it's ability makes it so much more viable, basically countering the sniper strikers of Kingdra and Drapion.
Not to mention that the addition of Wicked Blow makes dark types less likely to run Knock Off, also makes him much more viable.

*muffled scream* (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Roar
- Rapid Spin / Court Change / Heal Bell
- Slack Off / Wish

This is a mixed wall, basically you can switch into any attack besides powerful fighting moves and recover your health.

Boomburst does a surprising amount of damage. I prefer special over physical because it weakens Strength Sap and not affected by burns.
Roar is to stop any setup mons, trappers and ghost types.

This mon won by himself way more than it should have.
 
Probably too late, but Shell Side Arm works like Photon Geiser, as in it becomes a physical move depending on the user's highest attack stat

In other words, is worse than Sludge Wave, and a Gengar Shell Side Arm does less than a Focus Blast to, say, Blissey.

And if it did attack Blissey's lower physical defence, it would come from Gengar's weak attack stat

tl,dr Gengar actually didn't get any new toys in the dlc,
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
With Gengar's ban everyone has been scrambling to find stuff to replace it. Perhaps the most obvious choice, yet overlooked as silly is...

:ss/haunter:
Haunter has the same excellent dual STAB as Gengar coming off of 115 Special Attack, only 15 points lower than Gengar's. It has a much better ability in Levitate (RIP LeviGar) which when combined with its typing leads to it being able to hardwall Pokémon such as Hippowdon and Mudsdale that rely on Body Press + Earthquake. If it uses Taunt it also walls Chansey, allowing it to chip away at the blob.

It's not all spoopy for Haunter though, it loses out on quite a bit compared to its evolved form. The Speed tiers between 95 and 110 are notoriously crowded, including threats such as Urshifu, the Swords of Justice, Porygon-Z, and many, many more. Haunter is much less effective against offensive Pokemon than Gengar was because of this, and mostly sticks to pressuring switchins.
Haunter's movepool is also missing a couple key moves from Gengar's: Focus Blast and Nasty Plot. The lack of Focus Blast means Tyranitar is a hard counter to every Haunter set possible, although the possibility of burn exists to threaten it I guess. No Nasty Plot makes Haunter less of a potential sweeping threat in every matchup, although, as I talk about below, Acid Spray can replicate it to a degree.

Haunter @ Life Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Acid Spray
- Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Substitute

Moongeist Beam is mandatory; it's the best special Ghost STAB.
Acid Spray is very important for Haunter as it's primarily a Balance / BO breaker and Acid Spray lets it break down the SpD of threats such as Chansey to KO them, while also easing prediction and forcing switches. It acts as a pseudo Nasty Plot, although much worse in that it can be switched out on and does nothing to Steel types or mons immune to stat drops.
Sludge Wave / Bomb are the best available Poison STABs given that Shell Side Arm was a dud. Sludge Bomb is probably overall better unless you'd prefer not to Poison (on paraspam or if you're spreading burn or w/e) as Bulletproof is pretty much nonexistent right now.
Taunt lets you prevent defensive Pokémon from recovering or statusing you. Taunt stuff. It's especially helpful versus Chansey, which only runs Normal and Fighting non-status moves. Sub can be used to protect yourself from Status as well and to get in hits versus more offensive mons, but costs HP, mandating Black Sludge, and lets Chansey recover on you making it tough to break.

Eviolite isn't run because Haunter won't tank anything while chip damage can hurt it, especially with Sub.

Set #2! Totally unrelated :]
:ss/porygon-z:
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Terrain Pulse
- Ice Beam / Psychic
- Teleport / Trick

This set is run with Rillaboom. It's designed to do one thing that normal specs PZ can't:

252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

RIP Tyranitar, formerly the best counter to Porygon-Z
 
Hi please ban pz as top priority

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1137766025 - pz 2hkos chansey and can ohko 5/6 mons
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1137787155 - pz weakens ttar and can ohko 5/6 mons

I think theres a single digit number of viable mons that dont get OHKOd by boomburst let alone 2HKOd (including soundproofs/ghosts). The literal only mon that avoids a 2hko is Tyranitar and that's forced to recover (giving pz user a free turn) or it dies the next time. Ttar isnt good counterplay (easily abused just like why corv isnt a good aaa noivern check) so you probably need soundproof and even then kommoo takes 90 from tri attack. Replays speak for themselves, idk if any suspected/qb'd mon has been anywhere close to this
 
Ok, so Shell Side Arm doesn’t not work like the move version of Download, and acts like a slightly different version of Photon Geyser.
Instead of just just choosing between which offensive stat is higher on the user, it calculates this equation: ((((2 * the user's level / 5 + 2) * 90 * X) / Y) / 50) simplified: ((3,780 * X)/Y)/50
This equation inputs your Atk after stat stages for X and the target’s Def after stat stages, and then the move compares the value of outputted to the same equation but with SpA and SpD respectively.

What you need to know;
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the special side, ignoring burns, abilities (besides Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat? Need more clarification), and items, it will be a special move
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the physical side, ignoring burns, abilities (same as before), and items, it will be a physical move
-If its physical, it will be a contact move
-It’s not like how Photon Geyser can become a pseudo physical Psyshock
-This does however mean that the move will be doing the most amount of damage it can if you can avoid being burned or fighting against damage reducing abilities

This can be a good thing or a bad thing.
If you’re a Pokemon with the ability Tough Claws with 299 Atk and 212 SpA, and you come across a Pokemon with 299 Def and 200 SpD
The calculation would give a 75.6 value for Atk and 80.136 value for SpA, which means that SSA will do Special Damage, which means that you are actually doing less damage since Tough Claws would be boosting your SSA if it were Physical.

If you don’t use an ability like Tough Claw, or an item like Choice Specs, and also do not get burned, this move is a benefit as sometimes a physical move will be doing more damage.
 
Ok, so Shell Side Arm doesn’t not work like the move version of Download, and acts like a slightly different version of Photon Geyser.
Instead of just just choosing between which offensive stat is higher on the user, it calculates this equation: ((((2 * the user's level / 5 + 2) * 90 * X) / Y) / 50) simplified: ((3,780 * X)/Y)/50
This equation inputs your Atk after stat stages for X and the target’s Def after stat stages, and then the move compares the value of outputted to the same equation but with SpA and SpD respectively.

What you need to know;
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the special side, ignoring burns, abilities (besides Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat? Need more clarification), and items, it will be a special move
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the physical side, ignoring burns, abilities (same as before), and items, it will be a physical move
-If its physical, it will be a contact move
-It’s not like how Photon Geyser can become a pseudo physical Psyshock
-This does however mean that the move will be doing the most amount of damage it can if you can avoid being burned or fighting against damage reducing abilities

This can be a good thing or a bad thing.
If you’re a Pokemon with the ability Tough Claws with 299 Atk and 212 SpA, and you come across a Pokemon with 299 Def and 200 SpD
The calculation would give a 75.6 value for Atk and 80.136 value for SpA, which means that SSA will do Special Damage, which means that you are actually doing less damage since Tough Claws would be boosting your SSA if it were Physical.

If you don’t use an ability like Tough Claw, or an item like Choice Specs, and also do not get burned, this move is a benefit as sometimes a physical move will be doing more damage.
So is there a good user of this move?
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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:porygon-z::ss/porygon-z::porygon-z:
Quickban Update #9
Porygon-Z has been quickbanned by a unanimous council vote. Because of the absurd power of Boomburst backed by Adaptability or a Download boost Porygon-Z is nigh impossible to wall. Even the mighty Chansey is 2HKO'd by Choice Specs Adaptability Boomburst after chip from Stealth Rock, Sand, or other sources. Porygon-Z's expansive movepool gives it coverage options for all potential walls, and it can set up with Nasty Plot or Agility. However the nuke that is Boomburst which OHKOs the vast majority of the metagame and 2HKOs everything else that isn't immune to it is the main reason for this ban.

:bw/porygon-z:
Some replays of Porygon-Z in action:
aesf v 1vjcbyron - Porygon-Z 2HKOs a Tyranitar with Boomburst while surviving a Sucker Punch

aesf v jrdn - Porygon-Z utilizes Nature Power to deal massive damage to a defensive Tyranitar then cleans up by pivoting into Porygon-Z repeatedly and spamming Boomburst.

aesf v betathunderr - Porygon-Z 2HKOs a Chansey in sand.

:dp/porygon-z:
Links to discussion of Porygon-Z

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8515058
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8514883
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8510815
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8509390

tagging The Immortal and Kris
 
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:Indeedee-F: :Alakazam:
A core I can see potential in is Teleport Indeedee-F and Alakazam (and also Teleport Indeedee being useful to pass Psychic Terrain to fast frail Pokemon)

Indeedee’s primary use obviously is to provide Psychic Terrain, giving Alakazam powered up Psychic Attacks, even more powered up Expanding Force, and of course an immunity to priority.
That’s the obvious part.
Another reason why Alakazam benefits from Indeedee (it honestly could be either but the Female form is bulkier) is that Indeedee can really force a Special Wall to come in with its own Expanding Force and Boomburst (and honestly shocked isn’t banned yet), then also has Mystical Fire to make sure what comes in to it isn’t a random Steel type. With Alakazam, you don’t care about non-Dark type Special Walls thanks to Psyshock and Nasty Plot.
Nasty Plot is also why I picked a teleport users and Psychic Terrain summoner too. Despite being both Psychic type special attackers, a lot of Pokemon that Indeedee can’t beat, Alakazam can and can also force switches thanks to its incredible Speed and offensive power.
Even if you find yourself in a scenario where an opponent predicts a Mystic Fire and goes to Zeraora or when a Dark type Scarfer comes in predicting Expanding Force, you can always Teleport/Switch to another even faster teammate or a defensive teammate that can wall them.
 

drampa's grandpa

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is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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WICKED BLOW HAS BEEN BANNED FROM STABMONS

Quickban Update #10

The council has voted to quickban Wicked Blow on non-native learners 4 Ban 0 No Ban 1 Abstain. Wicked Blow has proven a broken and centralizing wallbreaking tool on numerous strong Dark types over the past weeks in STABmons thanks to its excellent offensive type, effective base 120 BP, and immunity to certain types of defensive counterplay. Wicked Blow has vastly increased the offensive potential of already strong Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile, Incineroar, and Bisharp. Due to the varied coverage and secondary STAB most Dark resists cannot keep up with all of these at once, forcing many teams to double up. Non-Dark-resisting physical walls cannot handle the power of Wicked Blow from the majority of these abusers. Defensive Pokemon that rely on stat changes (E.G. Intimidate, Stamina, or Iron Defense) or Prankster cannot begin to wall Pokemon with Wicked Blow thanks to the autocrit bypassing the boosts and the immunity to Prankster from Dark type.

The abstain vote (drampa's grandpa AKA me) did not believe they had seen enough of Wicked Blow on non-Urshifu abusers to make a call either way for this vote.

This vote will NOT prevent Urshifu-Single-Strike from using Wicked Blow. While Urshifu-SS certainly still has the potential to be broken, and the council is looking into it, banning Wicked Blow completely (other than as a side effect of an Urshifu ban) will not be considered an acceptable solution.

tagging Kris and The Immortal

What's Next?
So far the bans we've made have been pretty obvious. Things that we were pretty sure how things would go from the first couple days after the DLC dropped, and just wanted to give it a little time to be sure. Past here it's a little more complicated.

Urshifu has been on our radar for a little while. This ban will undoubtedly change the meta in ways that will significantly effect it; will the lack of Dark types empower Urshifu through lack of competition and relatively fewer Dark-Type switchins being brought, or will it mourn the free switch-ins from the Dark moves being spammed too much? It's sort of hard to tell at this point. However it will undoubtedly remain an incredibly potent offensive force, so we will keep our eyes on it.

What we would like to see discussed more is Cinderace versus V-Create. I have seen arguments both saying that V-Create is broken sans Cinderace and that Cinderace is broken sans V-Create. It could be both of course, but we're not going to ban both at the same time. IF we were to ban one of these, as we are discussing, which should it be? This is not the first time we've brought this up, but please continue to give input.
 
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In The Hills

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Gonna submit a team for samples to try and spark resources up again some post-DLC
Alola Form
Short Description: This team was designed around Flip Turn Toxapex, which is a nice check to new threats that have recently popped up like Marowak-Alola, Azumarill, and Cinderace. I decided to forego Haze on Toxapex in place for Knock Off support, which can hinder Marowak-Alola and is just a solid move otherwise. Ferrothorn+Marowak-Alola finish of the FWG core, and both can alleviate Toxapex's weakness to electric types like Rotom-Heat and Zeraora. Glare Sylveon is a nice support option that outside of its normal Rapid Spin support, can paralyze opponents to reduce the offensive counterplay to the strong breakers on the team. Urshifu and Alakazam form a nice offensive core to finish the team off, with Urshifu often using its limited switchins to gain momentum for the rest of the team. Focus Sash Alakazam is an amazing option to have in a pinch, as you can stop offensive threats in their tracks, as well as set up more safely in a metagame with a lot of priority. Overall this team has been super solid and can be picked up easily by just about anyone and do well on the ladder or in roomtours, so try it out :)

Only have a couple replays because i was using /hidereplay wrong for like a week lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1151744523 vs Zeraora Bulky Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1149851766 vs Bulky Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1138883941 vs Balance
 
WICKED BLOW HAS BEEN BANNED FROM STABMONS

Quickban Update #10

The council has voted to quickban Wicked Blow on non-native learners 4 Ban 0 No Ban 1 Abstain. Wicked Blow has proven a broken and centralizing wallbreaking tool on numerous strong Dark types over the past weeks in STABmons thanks to its excellent offensive type, effective base 120 BP, and immunity to certain types of defensive counterplay. Wicked Blow has vastly increased the offensive potential of already strong Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile, Incineroar, and Bisharp. Due to the varied coverage and secondary STAB most Dark resists cannot keep up with all of these at once, forcing many teams to double up. Non-Dark-resisting physical walls cannot handle the power of Wicked Blow from the majority of these abusers. Defensive Pokemon that rely on stat changes (E.G. Intimidate, Stamina, or Iron Defense) or Prankster cannot begin to wall Pokemon with Wicked Blow thanks to the autocrit bypassing the boosts and the immunity to Prankster from Dark type.

The abstain vote (drampa's grandpa AKA me) did not believe they had seen enough of Wicked Blow on non-Urshifu abusers to make a call either way for this vote.

This vote will NOT prevent Urshifu-Single-Strike from using Wicked Blow. While Urshifu-SS certainly still has the potential to be broken, and the council is looking into it, banning Wicked Blow completely (other than as a side effect of an Urshifu ban) will not be considered an acceptable solution.

tagging Kris and The Immortal

What's Next?
So far the bans we've made have been pretty obvious. Things that we were pretty sure how things would go from the first couple days after the DLC dropped, and just wanted to give it a little time to be sure. Past here it's a little more complicated.

Urshifu has been on our radar for a little while. This ban will undoubtedly change the meta in ways that will significantly effect it; will the lack of Dark types empower Urshifu through lack of competition and relatively fewer Dark-Type switchins being brought, or will it mourn the free switch-ins from the Dark moves being spammed too much? It's sort of hard to tell at this point. However it will undoubtedly remain an incredibly potent offensive force, so we will keep our eyes on it.

What we would like to see discussed more is Cinderace versus V-Create. I have seen arguments both saying that V-Create is broken sans Cinderace and that Cinderace is broken sans V-Create. It could be both of course, but we're not going to ban both at the same time. IF we were to ban one of these, as we are discussing, which should it be? This is not the first time we've brought this up, but please continue to give input.
V-Create should be banned, because it's not just Cinderace that abuses it.
Any fire-type with a decent attack can use it-
Alolawak, Coalossal, Flareon, Centiskorch, etc.
Not to mention that in a few months we're going to get more abusers, like Combusken, and V-create with Speed Boost sounds disgusting.
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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Check out the STABmons V-Create suspect!

COMPLETELY UNRELATED EVENT!
The first STABmons unofficial ladder tour is now open!

To sign up post in this thread saying IN and give us the name of the alt you will be using to ladder. The alt you use should have... let's see... how about VCS in it! :bloblul: The alt also needs to be a fresh one (made no earlier than 8/7/2020).

The top three contenders will automatically get reqs if they do not already have them and be enshrined in our Hall of Fame (to be made).
The winner will have the option of assisting the council with the re-creation of our viability rankings once the suspect has finished.

example:
Good: DramVCSpa
Bad: VDraCmpaS
 
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drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Check out the STABmons V-Create suspect!

COMPLETELY UNRELATED EVENT!
The first STABmons unofficial ladder tour is now open!

To sign up post in this thread saying IN and give us the name of the alt you will be using to ladder. The alt you use should have... let's see... how about VCS in it! :bloblul:

The top three contenders will automatically get reqs if they do not already have them and be enshrined in our Hall of Fame (to be made).
The winner will have the option of assisting the council with the re-creation of our viability rankings once the suspect has finished.

example:
Good: DramVCSpa
Bad: VDraCmpaS
In as AntiVCS

Might as well give my thoughts on the suspect while I'm here
V-Create is busted. The most broken abuser currently is Marowak-A, which has 0 switch-ins on most teams and frankly 0 reliable + viable switchins overall. Even Tyranitar loses unless it's running speedy Pdef. Cinderace also pushes the envelope with its incredible coverage capable of punishing resists and just nukes everything that doesn't resist. There's nothing subtle or difficult to quantify about V-Create honestly. It hits too damn hard. We've been discussing Cinderace a lot, but I think Marowak is what really pushes V-Create into clear banworthy territory.

Other abusers tend to strike me as good but not broken. Incineroar is by far the best and could have been considered busted when Wicked Blow was allowed, but not anymore imo. Flareon I mentioned but... it's really not that great. Mostly a Mage counter useful for its defensive utility. Skorch sets webs and rarely puts in much more work than that for me. Talonflame is saved from hitting like a wet paper towel by V-Create, but it's so weak naturally that even a 180 BP move won't make it hit hard without a boost, especially when holding Boots.

Darmanitan should NOT be part of the rationale for voting here. It was busted either way, with Pyro Ball being more reliable and hitting almost as hard, getting most of the benchmarks it needed.

I'll probably post more when I get some replays and calcs together but these are just my thoughts for now.
 
Hi guys, may I suggest this set:

Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Megahorn
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail / Baneful Bunker
Ok I'm not exactly sure about the spread (the ladder is kind of dead so it's hard to have a solid opinion) yet it looks nice on paper but feel free to tell me what you think.
So basically, gaining access to Coil makes this thing bulkier while giving it 100% accuracy on its freshly gained new STAB which also are the strongest it could get. 3rd move can give you extra coverage (EQ for steel types, Aqua tail for bulky ground types...) while Baneful Bunker is the opportunity to get +1 speed while potentially scouting an opponent move/poisoning it.
Cya!
 

drampa's grandpa

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is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
never gonna give you up<click for importable
Thought I'd post the team I made reqs with in case anyone else wants to use it to scramble to reqs.
I built around the offensive core of Rillaboom + Marowak-A, which is absolutely awesome right now. Rillaboom takes advantage of all the defensive threats that switch into Marowak, including Rhydon/Rhyperior, Toxapex, and Thick Fat Azumarill, only really fearing a burn at worst from any of them. I use High Horsepower because it gets rid of Toxapex, which is otherwise quite problematic for this team, as well as letting the Rilla beat non-Cotton Guard Ferrothorn (and Cotton Guard Ferro is just Marowak bait usually). Marowak in turn KOs everything. Er I mean. It helps with Rillaboom's Ferrothorn and Amoonguss issues. Ditto is important support for these two as it helps scout for Knock Off and other coverage / support moves that may cripple them (mostly Knock Off cuz rip Thick Club). It also provides excellent Speed control.

Ferrothorn + Toxapex is possibly the best two-mon defensive core in the meta. ChansPex might have it beat, but it's still really really good. Toxapex is 100% the single best mon and there is no team that is not better off without it. Sylveon provides relief from hazards, some paralysis support, and a decently powerful special attacker. It is, ironically, my primary recourse against bulky Kommo-os.

Threats: Gyarados is an issue for this team. You have to play smart with Ferrothorn and Ditto to avoid losing a mon to most sets, however Apple Acid on Ferrothorn means that it is doable. DON'T try to spam Strength Sap on it, Dragon Dance will out-PP you. Heavy Duty Boots Cinderace can be nasty if you let Toxapex get Knocked Off because it can come in over and over again. Marowak can also be scary, especially with Poltergeist, but that's kind of a given for any team that isn't like... rain.

This team went through several incarnations before it ended up like this. Older versions included one with Clefable, one with Urshifu, Alakazam, and Rhyperior... none worked very well. I like this one though! If we weren't about to vote on something in a suspect I might try to get it made into a sample :3


As for the metagame, and V-Create's place in it... I stand by what I said before. V-Create hits too damn hard. The metagame has centralized to an incredible degree around Marowak-A and its few counters. I think banning Marowak would help, but not be enough, as Cinderace also smacks a huge portion of the meta around with V-Create. Toxapex is the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, and that is in no small part due to its ability to both counter and support our fiery phenoms.
 
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