why are you assuming a z will be released. - x2 and y2 or Pokémon omega
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Move Stealth Rock
- Thread starter Ryker
- Start date
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Defog is not a TM in HGSS. Trade from DPPt to HGSS, then to BW and finally to XY.
Lol, I'm just refering to the inevitable sequal/s as 'Z', and both these posts are off topic. I wish more things knew Rapid Spin. It seems like the kind of move more things ought to be able to learn. All you need to do is spin around really fast and have the extra appendage (Tail, trunk, various floppy bits like ears, in case of Hitmontop everything because he spins on his head, tounge?, MIND POWERS, etc) and that it really seems like an ideal candidate for the Tutor. Ultimatly, it's still a normal move (thus "spin blockers" would still be useful), but more pokemon would have access to it, allowing for better checks on specific spin blockers. Of course, there would be ONE mon w/ scrappy that they would give it to, and he would suddenly rocket into OU (Any of them, all of them, Pangoro w/ Spin and Parting remark for momentum!?).
Though this seems off topic, I just think with how powerful Stealth Rock IS (spikes and toxic spikes too... I guess. Oh, and Sticky Web), making it's answer more common would make it a less required strategy. As it stands, if you want to compete, you NEED a spinner/defogger on your team. With the full list of Defoggers from Gen 4 and forward, and another equally large list of Tutorable Spinners, I think it would free up the meta a bit. Hazards would still be crazy common, they're just too useful, but with a larger selection of answers, it would be a whole lot less easy to prepare for the counter strategy.
If you think you need a spin/defog user in every single team youre doing it wrong. Unless youre particulary weak to hazards, theres absolutely no reason to waste a slot with one, specially considering that with enough offensive pressure no hazards will be up on the field at any point. There are enough people running talonflame and co already that almost everyone has defog/spin so it might look like its necessary to do so, but thats absolutely not true. In fact, the high prevalence of defog on the meta is slowly killing the niche of suicide leads making hazards easier to deal with even if you dont carry something to deal with them.
TBH, I believe Defog is hurting stall / defensive teams more than suicide leads. Deoxys-S can easily prevent Defog with Taunt while it stacks up layers. Even if Defog users come in later, that's just free opportunity for an offensive Pokemon to switch-in / set up. It's the more defensive teams that cannot sustain the offensive pressure that are aggravated by Defog's ease in eliminating hazards, since there is nothing that they can switch in to block its attempt, unlike Rapid Spin.
Exactly my point. With a much more common solution now (Defog), that strategy is really feeling the hurt. Still, Stealth Rock takes a turn and currently goes on some of the beefier defenders (Fort and Skarm are good examples), meaning strong Physical types make for easy switches, allowing your wall to set up. Though the strategy is hindered, it's still very powerful and (at least w/ Stealth Rock) easy to use. I'll believe you don't need to at consider Stealth Rock an obstacle when team building when every single damage calculation tossed around on this very forum doesn't have a clause for "#HKO after stealth rock." The only other thing as common a concern as Stealth Rock is Earthquake.
To totally change the topic... Why the hell is it called Stealth Rock? I get that there are rocks, but how are they at all Stealthy!? The game makes a point to let you know they are there when they show up, and every time you switch, they jump up and go "HI! WE'RE HERE! JUST REMINDING YOU!"
Why not Homing Rocks, Assault Rocks, Blast Rocks, Obvious Rocks, Flying Death Rocks, Murder Rocks, anything?
To totally change the topic... Why the hell is it called Stealth Rock? I get that there are rocks, but how are they at all Stealthy!? The game makes a point to let you know they are there when they show up, and every time you switch, they jump up and go "HI! WE'RE HERE! JUST REMINDING YOU!"
Why not Homing Rocks, Assault Rocks, Blast Rocks, Obvious Rocks, Flying Death Rocks, Murder Rocks, anything?
Status, Taunt, arguably Voltturn. Do they count as common concerns?
Assault Rocks sounds pretty cool to me. make it happen game freak
If you are not using entry hazards then defog is a fine move.
Meh, remember that stall keeps around hazard setters a bit better than most other styles, so we can reset the hazards if need be. It just forces stall not to rely on spikes, which is fine. I was always bothered more by spikes on my side of the field anyways. Allows me to no longer have to find a way for a spinblocker to beat jellicent.
Stealth rocks are mobile enough and have enough distribution that stall doesn't mind having to reset them 10 times a game if that's what it takes to take out the opponent's setter and clearer.
Edit: We also love it when you have a setter/clearer all in one. Makes the job twice as easy.
Stealth rocks are mobile enough and have enough distribution that stall doesn't mind having to reset them 10 times a game if that's what it takes to take out the opponent's setter and clearer.
Edit: We also love it when you have a setter/clearer all in one. Makes the job twice as easy.
It'd be nice if there was a more consistent way to punish hazard setting.
I don't think defog/rapid spin is actually a counter, just like how no-miss moves, no-guard and the like aren't really counters to evasion. They're just checks, they don't punish, or counter it, they're just able to function despite it. Spin/defog don't punish the act of setting hazards, just cleans up after them. But they don't consistently prevent the damage they do.
I always thought some garbagemons like muk, swalot, garbador, slugma, and golurk should have an ability to boost their defenses and absorb hazards.
Magic bouncers were a good idea because there's risk/reward for hazards, but it'd be nice if we had more ways to punish hazards like how Bisharp punishes sticky web
I don't think defog/rapid spin is actually a counter, just like how no-miss moves, no-guard and the like aren't really counters to evasion. They're just checks, they don't punish, or counter it, they're just able to function despite it. Spin/defog don't punish the act of setting hazards, just cleans up after them. But they don't consistently prevent the damage they do.
I always thought some garbagemons like muk, swalot, garbador, slugma, and golurk should have an ability to boost their defenses and absorb hazards.
Magic bouncers were a good idea because there's risk/reward for hazards, but it'd be nice if we had more ways to punish hazards like how Bisharp punishes sticky web
There are punishes in magic bounce and checks in Magic guard... You can't really punish a pokemon for using a move other than making a good play around it, right? Ice beam doesn't cause the user to explode.
Magic bounce is a punish, that's true, hence why i brought it up as such. But there are only 3, all of which are frail as hell. They're also fairly difficult to utilize properly, and once rocks are out, there is no punishment for it.
They're pretty negligible in the battle against hazards, overall.
And yes, you can punish pokemon for using moves. Absorption abilities (flash fire, sap sipper, etc) are perfect examples. That's what this ability would be most akin to. Or maybe the abilities that punish attempts to drop stats.
Maybe giving it to Golurk would be a bit much because i think that would make him way too much better than the others. Maybe macargo too because he's a powerful answer to a lot of the hazards setters. But Muk, Garbador, and Swalot(who it fits best with anyway) would probably be fairly balanced, I think.
Most hazards setters are steel, or have EQ access. That gives them some inherent vulnerability for this would-be amazing ability. Kind of like magic bouncers with TTar SR setters.
They're pretty negligible in the battle against hazards, overall.
And yes, you can punish pokemon for using moves. Absorption abilities (flash fire, sap sipper, etc) are perfect examples. That's what this ability would be most akin to. Or maybe the abilities that punish attempts to drop stats.
While I'd be content with this, I don't really feel rocks are worth nerfing directly. I really like the idea of using their existence to indirectly buff old pokemon, kind of like what defog did.
Maybe giving it to Golurk would be a bit much because i think that would make him way too much better than the others. Maybe macargo too because he's a powerful answer to a lot of the hazards setters. But Muk, Garbador, and Swalot(who it fits best with anyway) would probably be fairly balanced, I think.
Most hazards setters are steel, or have EQ access. That gives them some inherent vulnerability for this would-be amazing ability. Kind of like magic bouncers with TTar SR setters.
If we're going to discuss theoretical ways to balance SR, I'd rather see direct variations of it. Instead of nerfing SR, buff spikes so it only takes 1 turn to set up and can deal ground type damage. Then introduce more variations like a grass type (thorns or something lame like that) and remove the stacking nature and people will actually be able to use flying and fire types more consistently.
Since theory is pretty pointless, I'll just say defog is more than enough to balance hazards for now
Since theory is pretty pointless, I'll just say defog is more than enough to balance hazards for now
Honestly, my problem with Stealth Rock is because it deals different damage to different types, which automatically makes particular pokemon unviable. *cough**volcaronaanddragonite**cough* That's why I'm fine with Spikes, because it deals (relatively) equal damage to each pokemon.
well the lack of rocks does not make them op in any way has proved last gens stealth rock less ladder
what i like it is now due to defog buff rocks are no longer a cheap commodity and a brain less move because now its easy to remove then from the field
I think that the ideal hazard would affect everything barring rare things like Magic Guard, but would deal typeless damage. However, I don't think Stealth Rock needs any more of a nerf than the Defog buff - they're quickly losing their place as an assumed condition in every match because there are so many more good hazard removers.
I hope showdown implement an OU no stealth rock tier again even though I don't really use showdown often thanks to easy iv breeding, but still, it was fun last Gen even if it made volcarona and dragonite (and this Gen megazard and talonflame) a bit OP
Scizor, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Crobat, Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Moltres, Mew, Togekiss, Salamence, Latias, Latios, and Empoleon are all viable users of defog. It obviously depends on the team you use, sometimes a spinner is easier to use and sometimes a defogger is. But one thing is certain, there are a lot more viable defoggers than spinners.
Fair enough, I guess there are more than I thought but I feel most of those do not fit easily onto an OU team. At least not with the ease people seem to be suggesting in this thread re: why SR is going down in popularity/relevance.
That would be cool but I don't think there going to make Scizor more powerful (and useful) than he already is. Plus he gets defog if you didn't know. :P
"Rocks would be so much easier to remove than to use a risky move like defog"
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