Move Stealth Rock

[SergantGold]

There are also only two good defoggers at the moment, and more people are using Excadrill, so...

Rocks are quite a bit more common in Bank, where you can just slap the move on a Lando-T or even Garchomp. Defog is too, but it's not that easy to use, especially with teams stacking set-up sweepers.

Do you mean pre bank or post bank. Because post bank there are a lot more than two of good defoggers
Ex.
Empoleon (resists SR and is immune to TS, you can give it a balloon to get around mamo)
Flygon(resists SR and is immune to the other hazards)
Lati@s(no explination needed)
Mandibuzz (still useful post pokebank)
Skarmory(can use it to help set up SR)
DURH HUR HUR ARCUES
Scizor(apparently has a good utility set according to its new analysis)
Crobat (Infiltratior, great typing, fast, can taunt other defoggers, can destroy stall)

 

[Strykeypoo]

Do you mean pre bank or post bank. Because post bank there are a lot more than two of good defoggers
Ex.
Empoleon (resists SR and is immune to TS, you can give it a balloon to get around mamo)
Flygon(resists SR and is immune to the other hazards)
Lati@s(no explination needed)
Mandibuzz (still useful post pokebank)
Skarmory(can use it to help set up SR)
DURH HUR HUR ARCUES
Scizor(apparently has a good utility set according to its new analysis)
Crobat (Infiltratior, great typing, fast, can taunt other defoggers, can destroy stall)

Empoleon and Flygon are deadweight in OU. A defogger needs to be able to contribute more to the team than just Defog. Crobat's new usefulness is incredibly overrated, as stall hasn't been viable since 4th gen and Crobat itself takes 25% from SR.
Mandibuzz is probably one of the better users though, with it benefiting from the new Knock Off and Dark type changes.

Stealth Rock still is much easier to set up than it is to get rid of, regardless. Most of the pokemon that will be running Stealth Rock (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landours-T) are giant threats without factoring in their ability to set up rocks. Meanwhile those that run Defog have to limit a lot of their offensive or defensive potential by taking the move. Latias has to give up on either dual stab, recovery or calm mind to run it, while Scizor will have to choose between Pursuit or Superpower if it wants Defog.

I think if Garchomp or Tyranitar got Defog, it'd see usage on about a third of their sets. A lot of viable OU pokemon that get Defog are either sweepers or heavy hitters though, relying on good movepool coverage and item usage to fulfill their roles. Excadrill is much more like the prior, and as has been speculated on, I think it will see more usage with Rapid Spin than these Defog users.

 

[Jin White]

Empoleon and Flygon are deadweight in OU. A defogger needs to be able to contribute more to the team than just Defog. Crobat's new usefulness is incredibly overrated, as stall hasn't been viable since 4th gen and Crobat itself takes 25% from SR.
Mandibuzz is probably one of the better users though, with it benefiting from the new Knock Off and Dark type changes.

Ajwf and the entirety of the stall thread disagree.

Also Defog Lati@s for President 2014

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Empoleon and Flygon are deadweight in OU. A defogger needs to be able to contribute more to the team than just Defog. Crobat's new usefulness is incredibly overrated, as stall hasn't been viable since 4th gen and Crobat itself takes 25% from SR.
Mandibuzz is probably one of the better users though, with it benefiting from the new Knock Off and Dark type changes.

Stealth Rock still is much easier to set up than it is to get rid of, regardless. Most of the pokemon that will be running Stealth Rock (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landours-T) are giant threats without factoring in their ability to set up rocks. Meanwhile those that run Defog have to limit a lot of their offensive or defensive potential by taking the move. Latias has to give up on either dual stab, recovery or calm mind to run it, while Scizor will have to choose between Pursuit or Superpower if it wants Defog.

I think if Garchomp or Tyranitar got Defog, it'd see usage on about a third of their sets. A lot of viable OU pokemon that get Defog are either sweepers or heavy hitters though, relying on good movepool coverage and item usage to fulfill their roles. Excadrill is much more like the prior, and as has been speculated on, I think it will see more usage with Rapid Spin than these Defog users.

LOL, i dont even play stall yet i find this sentence hilarious. Just because stall is harder to run than before does not mean its not viable. I've faced plenty of excellent stall teams this gen and they are definitely still viable. Crobat, alongside every other stallbreaker definitely has a niche and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The above post is a great explanation of this.

 

[SergantGold]

Empoleon and Flygon are deadweight in OU. A defogger needs to be able to contribute more to the team than just Defog. Crobat's new usefulness is incredibly overrated, as stall hasn't been viable since 4th gen and Crobat itself takes 25% from SR.
Mandibuzz is probably one of the better users though, with it benefiting from the new Knock Off and Dark type changes.

Stealth Rock still is much easier to set up than it is to get rid of, regardless. Most of the pokemon that will be running Stealth Rock (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landours-T) are giant threats without factoring in their ability to set up rocks. Meanwhile those that run Defog have to limit a lot of their offensive or defensive potential by taking the move. Latias has to give up on either dual stab, recovery or calm mind to run it, while Scizor will have to choose between Pursuit or Superpower if it wants Defog.

I think if Garchomp or Tyranitar got Defog, it'd see usage on about a third of their sets. A lot of viable OU pokemon that get Defog are either sweepers or heavy hitters though, relying on good movepool coverage and item usage to fulfill their roles. Excadrill is much more like the prior, and as has been speculated on, I think it will see more usage with Rapid Spin than these Defog users.

I've been using Balloon Defog Empoleon with Scald/SR/Defog/Roar and it's been pulling its own weight and getting rid of hazards for me. Empoleon's large amount of resistances and great defensive typing let it function really well as a SRer and Defogger. The phasing utility is also useful but a lot of utility mons can phase so that isn't exactly special to empoleon.
And I found a bulky flygon set somewhere (probably in the Defog thread) that seems to be viable for its ability to be good way utility. It's big problem is that it can't do anything to fairies or steel types.
Note I am not saying these are the best defoggers around I'm saying they are (in flygon's case barely) viable. They have different things that make them preferred over a different defogger depending on the team.
I do think empoleon is a really great defogger/utility mon with Defog though. I'm also not saying that these guys should only be used for defog

To clarify: Empoleon and Flygon are crap in OU only if you try to use them offensively. Utility wise they are pretty great

 

[DaiGuren]

Give up on making Scizor offensive if you're going to make him your defogger. Outside of it's offense, it boasts lots of utility such as sd + baton pass, knock-off, roost, and a slow u-turn.

 

[effyouzion]

You can use Latios as an offensive defogger almost exactly the same as Starmie last gen, with the advantage that defog doesn't cause life orb recoil and can't be blocked by a switch in.

 

[ModelT]

I'm personally a fan of the fact that they expanded the "Anti-Hazards" list by tossing Defog in w/ Spin for removal, but a little sad that the most common users of Fog are weak to the threatening of the Hazards. Personally, I can't wait for the move tutor that will be inevitably released in the next game, in hopes that not only will more mons get Stealth Rock (as usual), but mostly that more will get Defog. I'm also hoping that they include Rapid Spin on the list of tutorable moves, even though it's kind of a complete trash move on its own, as the primary counter to Hazards (with Web joining the fray), it would be nice to make it more universal.

But more in the present, adding Defog hasn't expanded the fairly short list of mons who can De-Hazard by all that much, and almost not at all if you yourself want to use hazards or screens.

Personally, I like usign Skarm for the rocks, as Whirlwind/Rocks is just too much fun to pass up. I even went as far as to use Hariyama as an additional phazer to get that extra kick, and because Phaze/Rocks/Knock Off tears teams apart at the roots. It's a bit convoluted though, but when it works, it works wonders.

 

[SergantGold]

I'm personally a fan of the fact that they expanded the "Anti-Hazards" list by tossing Defog in w/ Spin for removal, but a little sad that the most common users of Fog are weak to the threatening of the Hazards. Personally, I can't wait for the move tutor that will be inevitably released in the next game, in hopes that not only will more mons get Stealth Rock (as usual), but mostly that more will get Defog. I'm also hoping that they include Rapid Spin on the list of tutorable moves, even though it's kind of a complete trash move on its own, as the primary counter to Hazards (with Web joining the fray), it would be nice to make it more universal.

But more in the present, adding Defog hasn't expanded the fairly short list of mons who can De-Hazard by all that much, and almost not at all if you yourself want to use hazards or screens.

Personally, I like usign Skarm for the rocks, as Whirlwind/Rocks is just too much fun to pass up. I even went as far as to use Hariyama as an additional phazer to get that extra kick, and because Phaze/Rocks/Knock Off tears teams apart at the roots. It's a bit convoluted though, but when it works, it works wonders.

Literally any pokemon that has anything resembling wings that was made before gen 5 probably has it[defog]

 

[alphatron]

Defog skarmory sounds really bad. Turns spent setting up hazards can be used for many things. Why would you waste even more turns getting rid of the hazards you set up just to get rid of your opponent's SR as well? Unless I'm missing something here.

 

[SergantGold]

Defog skarmory sounds really bad. Turns spent setting up hazards can be used for many things. Why would you waste even more turns getting rid of the hazards you set up just to get rid of your opponent's SR as well? Unless I'm missing something here.

The stratedgy is to not use spikes first of all, and what you do it come in defog and then Use SR. You wipe the board with an unblockable RS and then turn it in your favor. If the hazard setter is out I believe you whirlwind it. Both Skarmory (SR/Defog/Whirlwind/Roost or attack) and empoleon (SR/Defog/Roar/Scald) can do this.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Defog skarmory sounds really bad. Turns spent setting up hazards can be used for many things. Why would you waste even more turns getting rid of the hazards you set up just to get rid of your opponent's SR as well? Unless I'm missing something here.

Skarmory is one of the best defoggers around. He is extremely bulk and is capable of switching in several top threats. You are looking at it too much like past gens. Skarmory can perfectly run hazard+defog. The point of defog is for teams with things like talonflame or dragonite that desperately need rocks off the field much more than they want rocks on the opponent side. Once the opponent hazard setter dies you can easily come in and start setupping your own.

 

[effyouzion]

Defog skarmory sounds really bad. Turns spent setting up hazards can be used for many things. Why would you waste even more turns getting rid of the hazards you set up just to get rid of your opponent's SR as well? Unless I'm missing something here.

Skarmory is probably the best defogger for defensive teams. Skarm can switch in on a lot of things, and once you're in you just defog and switch out. No need to put spikes or SR on your defogger (BB/WW/Defog/Roost is my set).

 

[MagicMissingno]

I just realized, Mew will be able to get defog. Might not be much of a thing for most teams, but it's there.

 

[Mastamune]

It's the setters that are the problem atm, there are like 5... think they are Tyranitar, Mamo, Donphan, Tyrantrum, Aggron, off the top of my head, might be one or two more. Problem is, many of those can't be fitted on any team, Tyranitar is the most splashable atm. My current best team only runs defog and no SR becasue of it, and has been doing fine, tho I'm actually kinda looking forward too new setters, since SR is always going to be useful in a battle, and if you can, there is no reason not too run it.

I agree with this. Poke bank should see a resurgence (at least on cartridge) of SR usage. Right now there are just too few setters and not enough people can justify putting those pokemon on their team. (Except Tyrantrum...he's ba...give him a shot!). I still have this mentality of "Definitely need a spinner" and often times there's nothing to spin so it's a loaded slot. But at the same time, we get back possibly my favorite Spin blocker (jellicent) and also Rain Dish Tentacruel becomes live after pokebank!

 

[The Great Gastly]

I agree with this. Poke bank should see a resurgence (at least on cartridge) of SR usage. Right now there are just too few setters and not enough people can justify putting those pokemon on their team. (Except Tyrantrum...he's ba...give him a shot!). I still have this mentality of "Definitely need a spinner" and often times there's nothing to spin so it's a loaded slot. But at the same time, we get back possibly my favorite Spin blocker (jellicent) and also Rain Dish Tentacruel becomes live after pokebank!

Wow, I never noticed that Rain Dish Tenta isn't available pre-bank!

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the return of Heatran -- it's such a reliable SR setter and it fits snugly into many teams since it can run either an Offensive or Defensive set. :]

 

[alphatron]

Wow. I was being way too narrow minded. I guess Skarm can be a dedicated defogger. But simply using defog before setting up your own hazards seems pretty good. Especially against those teams that are still running suicide hazard leads.

 

[SergantGold]

Wow. I was being way too narrow minded. I guess Skarm can be a dedicated defogger. But simply using defog before setting up your own hazards seems pretty good. Especially against those teams that are still running suicide hazard leads.

Thats the point :)

 

[Jukain]

To clarify: Empoleon and Flygon are crap in OU only if you try to use them offensively. Utility wise they are pretty great.

bulky specs empoleon is a solid mon, don't hate .-.

tbh i don't think defog is that good, primarily because running a spinner is so much easier. think excadrill. it's a way better mon than any defogger out there. starmie, tenta, etc. are similarly good. defoggers are like...latios and skarm, both of which have horrible 4mss and crippling weaknesses.

 

[Jaiho]

bulky specs empoleon is a solid mon, don't hate .-.

tbh i don't think defog is that good, primarily because running a spinner is so much easier. think excadrill. it's a way better mon than any defogger out there. starmie, tenta, etc. are similarly good. defoggers are like...latios and skarm, both of which have horrible 4mss and crippling weaknesses.

Mandibuzz has a new lease on life this gen, and despite the SR weakness itself, it is a pretty good defog user.

 

[SergantGold]

bulky specs empoleon is a solid mon, don't hate .-.

tbh i don't think defog is that good, primarily because running a spinner is so much easier. think excadrill. it's a way better mon than any defogger out there. starmie, tenta, etc. are similarly good. defoggers are like...latios and skarm, both of which have horrible 4mss and crippling weaknesses.

Empoleon is a good defogger as well. More resitances than excadrill, less weaknesses, and can mitigate the ground one easily in the same exact way, through Air Balloon. While it is really slow, its superior defences make it better at utility mon.
And its has less 4MSS because it doesn't need to worry about spinblockers.

And I personally prefer subpetya over bulky specs. The +1 Stab Torrent Scald/Hydro Pump man.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Physically defensive latias is one of, if not the best defogger in post bank, boasting excellent resistances to common water, fire, electric and fighting moves and being capable of switching easily on threats like the thundurus and landorus formes, keldeo, terrakion, breloom etc. Throw in reflect type and watch as nothing bar shitvile can pursuit trap you. Mega Scizor is also excellent thanks to only having one weakness and being able to build momentum with a slow u-turn. Mandibuzz excellent bulk, immunity to weather passive damage (not to mention spore) and access to knock off to disrupt any switch in is another great choice. Latios can easily run an offensive 3 attacks+defog set similar to starmie rapid spin while boasting similar advantages to latias. Zapdos, crobat and togekiss are other options as well. You really need to look more into the possible defog users. Rapid spin is still useful, but dismissing defog instantly is ridiculous. Keep in mind that there are plenty of things that prefer defog reliability of being impossibly to block with any random ghost type. Theres nothing worse than seeing your starmie/excadrill/blastoise spin being endless blocked by a smart ghost switch in at the right time, when your talonflame is unable to get on the field safely. Its all about the team youre running, really. Not all teams can afford to let hazards stay in for too long, and the choices of rapid spin users are too limited compared to defog. Basically pick up what works best for you, they both are good as long as your team is working.

 

[Jukain]

Empoleon is a good defogger as well. More resitances than excadrill, less weaknesses, and can mitigate the ground one easily in the same exact way, through Air Balloon. While it is really slow, its superior defences make it better at utility mon.
And its has less 4MSS because it doesn't need to worry about spinblockers.

And I personally prefer subpetya over bulky specs. The +1 Stab Torrent Scald/Hydro Pump man.

Oh, I was thinking of the wrong thing as being missing...I'm sure SubPetaya is solid, if a little less due to the rain nerf.

I just dislike Defog because it disrupts hazards entirely, which is just not fun :/

 

[SergantGold]

Oh, I was thinking of the wrong thing as being missing...I'm sure SubPetaya is solid, if a little less due to the rain nerf.

I just dislike Defog because it disrupts hazards entirely, which is just not fun :/

I like the scatter it causes among some people as well as being easier to use, as you don't have to worry about spinblockers. The fact that its hard to stop makes it worth it to me

 

[ModelT]

I had entirely forgotten about Bank and that Defog was an HM once. That changes a lot. The argument still stands that most things that can learn Defog are still probably weak to Rock (flying and all), and removes YOUR hazards.

So far, this gen has been all about completely screwing the old Meta, and it would be par for the course if they let the Tutor teach Rapid Spin when Z comes out.