Despite the title and how you interpret it, I am a strong supporter of Dragonite and a life-long fan. But Smogon we have a problem... There is this horrid stigma surrounding Dragonite that he is a "novelty" Pokemon or just an inferior Salamence. Well guess what- he is inferior... and he isn't. It depends on how you use him. And from my understanding of usage stastics, he is being grossly misused. So allow me to explain:
Take a look at Dragonite's base stats:
(HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe)
91 / 134 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 80
Now, take a look at Salamence's base stats:
95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100
So for the sake of comparison, I've highlighted the things Dragonite has over Salamence: Defenses. In many cases, that 80 Base Defense of Salamence is often augmented by its great ability, Intimidate. Don't pay attention to Salamence's 4 HP and 1 Atk advantage over Dragonite, the difference in most instances is negligable, and believe it or not they do share the same base stat tier. However, Salamence has what most would consider to be a much more favorable stat distrubution. And they would be right. Salamence has a much better stat distribution for sweeping. So why use Dragonite? That is the point of this thread... why use Dragonite? And how to use Dragonite. Lets start with how to use Dragonite.
Quote:
Take a look at Dragonite's base stats:
(HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe)
91 / 134 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 80
Now, take a look at Salamence's base stats:
95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100
So for the sake of comparison, I've highlighted the things Dragonite has over Salamence: Defenses. In many cases, that 80 Base Defense of Salamence is often augmented by its great ability, Intimidate. Don't pay attention to Salamence's 4 HP and 1 Atk advantage over Dragonite, the difference in most instances is negligable, and believe it or not they do share the same base stat tier. However, Salamence has what most would consider to be a much more favorable stat distrubution. And they would be right. Salamence has a much better stat distribution for sweeping. So why use Dragonite? That is the point of this thread... why use Dragonite? And how to use Dragonite. Lets start with how to use Dragonite.
*How to use Dragonite*
Okay, so for starters, I'm making these extreme claims about how Smogon is misusing Dragonite so I have to back it up with facts. Take a look at these statistics:
| Dragonite | Nature | Jolly | 20.6 |
| Dragonite | Nature | Jolly | 21.9 |
This statistics were taken from January 2009, and December 2008 respectively. Over 20% of Dragonite used are Jolly. This is a huge mistake. Listen up, and listen carefully:
DO NOT EVER USE JOLLY NATURE ON DRAGONITE!!!!!
I don't think I could make myself more clear. But the reason why you should NEVER use a Jolly nature on Dragonite is because that is the quickest way to make Dragonite 100% inferior to Salamence. One hundred percent. Let me explain further:
A Jolly Dragonite that Maxes Attack and Speed will produce the following stats (same order as above):
323 / 367 / 226 / 212 / 236 / 284
A Dragon Dance Salamence will produce the following stats:
331 / 405 / 196 / 230 / 196 / 299 (Adamant)
331 / 405 / 186 / 256 / 176 / 299 (Naughty)
Now, Salamence is superior to this Dragonite for two reasons:
1) Higher Attack and Speed Stats that are important for Dragon Dance
2) Higher accumulated stat total due to Dragonite boosting its WORST stat. Salamence achieves 1657 stat points with an Adamant nature, and 1663 stat points with a Naughty nature. Dragonite achieves 1648 total stat points.
So, through this demonstration, we have learned that Salamence, because it is boosting its highest stat, and in the Naughty spread is reducing its lowest stat, is accumulating better overall stats than Dragonite, and has a stat distribution better suited to sweeping already. If I wanted to "dumb down" Salamence to Dragonite's level, I would have to use a Careful / Calm nature (Bold / Impish works too, but Intimidate obviously changes that). So, if I change Salamence to Careful nature and attempt to duplicate Dragonite's stats here is how it plays out:
I would have to use Careful nature with
120 Atk / 120 Def / 76 SpD / 192 Spe
Yields these stats:
331 / 336 / 226 / 230 / 236 / 284
with a total stat total of 1643 stat points. This is actually lower than Dragonite's total since I lowered one of Salamence's better stats to try to mimick Dragonite's better stats. Since no one uses a Careful nature on Salamence, why should you ever use a Jolly nature on Dragonite?
So, in conclusion, don't use a Jolly nature on Dragonite. So what natures should you use? Your going to want to captilize on Dragonite's standout stats. Adamant nature works for both dragons because it is their highest overall stat, which means it will grant the most overall stat points. If you wanted to get the absolute most stat points out of Dragonite and Salamence, use a Brave nature ofr Dragonite and a Naughty nature for Salamence. But for Dragonite, stick with an Adamant nature for offensive sets and Careful / Calm nature for defensive or support sets to amplify Dragonite's great special defense. Now, Mixnite requires a Rash nature, which is not a bad nature at all for Dragonite. Statistically, it is similar to Salamence using a Naive / Hasty nature, but Salamence lacks a second 100 Base stat to decrease.
So, my final "burn" on using Dragonite correctly is a good transition into the next part of this topic, and that is why to use Dragonite. Dragonite has a superior movepool to Salamence. Period. Accept it, take it in now. Dragonite has more move options and more roles he can play on your team other than the kickass sweeper. So stop relegating him to that role. In the last two months, these were the typical movesets used for Dragonite:
Quote:| Dragonite | Nature | Jolly | 20.6 |
| Dragonite | Nature | Jolly | 21.9 |
This statistics were taken from January 2009, and December 2008 respectively. Over 20% of Dragonite used are Jolly. This is a huge mistake. Listen up, and listen carefully:
DO NOT EVER USE JOLLY NATURE ON DRAGONITE!!!!!
I don't think I could make myself more clear. But the reason why you should NEVER use a Jolly nature on Dragonite is because that is the quickest way to make Dragonite 100% inferior to Salamence. One hundred percent. Let me explain further:
A Jolly Dragonite that Maxes Attack and Speed will produce the following stats (same order as above):
323 / 367 / 226 / 212 / 236 / 284
A Dragon Dance Salamence will produce the following stats:
331 / 405 / 196 / 230 / 196 / 299 (Adamant)
331 / 405 / 186 / 256 / 176 / 299 (Naughty)
Now, Salamence is superior to this Dragonite for two reasons:
1) Higher Attack and Speed Stats that are important for Dragon Dance
2) Higher accumulated stat total due to Dragonite boosting its WORST stat. Salamence achieves 1657 stat points with an Adamant nature, and 1663 stat points with a Naughty nature. Dragonite achieves 1648 total stat points.
So, through this demonstration, we have learned that Salamence, because it is boosting its highest stat, and in the Naughty spread is reducing its lowest stat, is accumulating better overall stats than Dragonite, and has a stat distribution better suited to sweeping already. If I wanted to "dumb down" Salamence to Dragonite's level, I would have to use a Careful / Calm nature (Bold / Impish works too, but Intimidate obviously changes that). So, if I change Salamence to Careful nature and attempt to duplicate Dragonite's stats here is how it plays out:
I would have to use Careful nature with
120 Atk / 120 Def / 76 SpD / 192 Spe
Yields these stats:
331 / 336 / 226 / 230 / 236 / 284
with a total stat total of 1643 stat points. This is actually lower than Dragonite's total since I lowered one of Salamence's better stats to try to mimick Dragonite's better stats. Since no one uses a Careful nature on Salamence, why should you ever use a Jolly nature on Dragonite?
So, in conclusion, don't use a Jolly nature on Dragonite. So what natures should you use? Your going to want to captilize on Dragonite's standout stats. Adamant nature works for both dragons because it is their highest overall stat, which means it will grant the most overall stat points. If you wanted to get the absolute most stat points out of Dragonite and Salamence, use a Brave nature ofr Dragonite and a Naughty nature for Salamence. But for Dragonite, stick with an Adamant nature for offensive sets and Careful / Calm nature for defensive or support sets to amplify Dragonite's great special defense. Now, Mixnite requires a Rash nature, which is not a bad nature at all for Dragonite. Statistically, it is similar to Salamence using a Naive / Hasty nature, but Salamence lacks a second 100 Base stat to decrease.
So, my final "burn" on using Dragonite correctly is a good transition into the next part of this topic, and that is why to use Dragonite. Dragonite has a superior movepool to Salamence. Period. Accept it, take it in now. Dragonite has more move options and more roles he can play on your team other than the kickass sweeper. So stop relegating him to that role. In the last two months, these were the typical movesets used for Dragonite:
December:
Typical moveset:
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
Typical moveset:
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
Quote:
January:
Typical moveset:
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Roost
* Fire Punch, Draco Meteor, Superpower, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt can replace any of the four moves listed.
From the looks of this of this, the standard moveset is commonly Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Dragon Dance. It is evidenced by the usage statistics as well:
| Dragonite | Move | Fire Punch | 29.9 |
30% of Dragonite are packing Fire Punch, and Choice Band is not listed as an item meaning that this is the most common build. Stop it people! Again, you aren't doing anything to separate Dragonite from Salamence. So whether you are using an Adamant or Jolly nature, Salamence is still doing this set better in some way or another! I think I've said enough, so on to the next section!
Conclusion!!!!
Typical moveset:
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Roost
* Fire Punch, Draco Meteor, Superpower, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt can replace any of the four moves listed.
From the looks of this of this, the standard moveset is commonly Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Dragon Dance. It is evidenced by the usage statistics as well:
| Dragonite | Move | Fire Punch | 29.9 |
30% of Dragonite are packing Fire Punch, and Choice Band is not listed as an item meaning that this is the most common build. Stop it people! Again, you aren't doing anything to separate Dragonite from Salamence. So whether you are using an Adamant or Jolly nature, Salamence is still doing this set better in some way or another! I think I've said enough, so on to the next section!
*Why should you use Dragonite???*
I already alluded to it before. Movepool. This is the single most important reason why you should use Dragonite over Salamence. In terms of moves, he can do everything that Salamence can do, and some that Salamence cannot do. In fact, the reason why he is called an inferior Salamence is because the combinations of moves that he can use identically to Salamence he doesn't do as well. So, stop doing that! So I here is my favorite part: I am going to attempt to convince you to take another route with Dragonite with some sets.
Dragon Dancing:
If you really want to use Dragonite as a Dragon Dancer, there are two sets you should try, and neither is outclassed by Salamence. Both involve "bulky" Dragon Dancing. So here we go:
Set: Bulky DD Dragonite
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/88 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
Now, this set yields the following stats:
379 / 358 / 226 / 212 / 236 / 245
I really have to prove my point on this one, because Salamence can run a similar set. Now, the concept of Bulky DD Salamence is that it can double as a sweeper and sort of defensive wall with an obligation of countering Lucario via Intimidate. Since Dragonite has to run a Jolly nature to have a shot at duplicating that, just remove him of that resonsibility and call this a straight up sweeper. The main benefit of this set is that it IS bulkier than Salamence. Intimidate is only active factor making Salamence seem bulkier than Dragonite at times. However, since this set is designed on setting up 2 Dragon Dances in the late-game (which is not hard by any stretch of the imagination), speed becomes a non issue, and Dragonite's higher natural physical bulk leaves him less susceptible to revenge kills by Scizor, and higher special bulk makes setting up on special attackers a viable tactic. Having played both Bulky DD Dragonite and Bulky DD Salamence extensively, I found that they both have their perks but if the objective is setting up a sweep, Dragonite actually does so because it no longer has that walling responsiblity, and has natural bulk after it nabs the first kill.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
If Salamence uses a Jolly nature to counter Lucario, it loses the attack power. However, if it were to attempt to duplicate this Dragonite's attack and defenses starting with defense, it would have to run this EV spread:
192 HP / 120 Def / 160 SpD / 36 Spe
This yields the following stats:
379 / 336 / 226 / 230 / 236 / 245
Reaches the same stats, but loses 22 points in attack! Starting from attack, it would look like this:
192 HP / 88 Atk / 120 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe
Yields:
379 / 358 / 226 / 230 / 216 / 245
Loses 20 points of Special Defense. So, give this set a try! Onto the next:
Set: Bulky LS DD Dragonite
Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/64 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Light Screen
- Roost
Details for this set are found in the analysis.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence doesn't get Light Screen, or base 100 Special Defense.
That's all I have for Dragon Dance... try some of his other sets:
Set: Bulky DD Dragonite
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/88 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
Now, this set yields the following stats:
379 / 358 / 226 / 212 / 236 / 245
I really have to prove my point on this one, because Salamence can run a similar set. Now, the concept of Bulky DD Salamence is that it can double as a sweeper and sort of defensive wall with an obligation of countering Lucario via Intimidate. Since Dragonite has to run a Jolly nature to have a shot at duplicating that, just remove him of that resonsibility and call this a straight up sweeper. The main benefit of this set is that it IS bulkier than Salamence. Intimidate is only active factor making Salamence seem bulkier than Dragonite at times. However, since this set is designed on setting up 2 Dragon Dances in the late-game (which is not hard by any stretch of the imagination), speed becomes a non issue, and Dragonite's higher natural physical bulk leaves him less susceptible to revenge kills by Scizor, and higher special bulk makes setting up on special attackers a viable tactic. Having played both Bulky DD Dragonite and Bulky DD Salamence extensively, I found that they both have their perks but if the objective is setting up a sweep, Dragonite actually does so because it no longer has that walling responsiblity, and has natural bulk after it nabs the first kill.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
If Salamence uses a Jolly nature to counter Lucario, it loses the attack power. However, if it were to attempt to duplicate this Dragonite's attack and defenses starting with defense, it would have to run this EV spread:
192 HP / 120 Def / 160 SpD / 36 Spe
This yields the following stats:
379 / 336 / 226 / 230 / 236 / 245
Reaches the same stats, but loses 22 points in attack! Starting from attack, it would look like this:
192 HP / 88 Atk / 120 Def / 80 SpD / 36 Spe
Yields:
379 / 358 / 226 / 230 / 216 / 245
Loses 20 points of Special Defense. So, give this set a try! Onto the next:
Set: Bulky LS DD Dragonite
Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/64 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Light Screen
- Roost
Details for this set are found in the analysis.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence doesn't get Light Screen, or base 100 Special Defense.
That's all I have for Dragon Dance... try some of his other sets:
Support:
Dragonite has so many support options... so why hasn't anyone tried them? Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, and Light Screen are all completely absent in the usage statistics!!!
Set: Heal Bell / Para Shuffle
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/52 Spd/208 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell / Light Screen
- Roost
In a time where status seems to be everywhere, no one considers a heal beller? Is Rotom burning everything in sight? Has your whole team been crippled by paralysis? Are your walls aching from Toxic? Dragonite to the rescue! He can even do some special walling of his own with the great special defense investment. I pumped the speed up on these to 209 to outspeed no speed Rotom, since you can buy an Electric resist when roosting. You can also throw Light Screen in there for more support.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence doesn't get Light Screen, or base 100 Special Defense. Salamence also lacks Heal Bell and Thunder Wave. Hell, how many other pokemon learn Thunder-Wave
Set: Toxic Staller
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/52 Spd/208 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Light Screen
- Roost
Need something to outstall the Vaporeon / Swampert's switching in to you. Toxic them and laugh as they cry and their Ice Beams fail to knock off 20% of your HP.
This line is getting tired: This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Reasons that should be obvious by now.
Set: Heal Bell / Para Shuffle
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/52 Spd/208 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell / Light Screen
- Roost
In a time where status seems to be everywhere, no one considers a heal beller? Is Rotom burning everything in sight? Has your whole team been crippled by paralysis? Are your walls aching from Toxic? Dragonite to the rescue! He can even do some special walling of his own with the great special defense investment. I pumped the speed up on these to 209 to outspeed no speed Rotom, since you can buy an Electric resist when roosting. You can also throw Light Screen in there for more support.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence doesn't get Light Screen, or base 100 Special Defense. Salamence also lacks Heal Bell and Thunder Wave. Hell, how many other pokemon learn Thunder-Wave
Set: Toxic Staller
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/52 Spd/208 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Light Screen
- Roost
Need something to outstall the Vaporeon / Swampert's switching in to you. Toxic them and laugh as they cry and their Ice Beams fail to knock off 20% of your HP.
This line is getting tired: This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Reasons that should be obvious by now.
Wall-breaking:
I'm going to have to prove my point a little harder in this section, but Dragonite wall-breaks differently than Salamence does, so it is not outclassed despite what you may believe. Onto examples:
Set: MixNite
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 112 Atk/196 Spd/200 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Superpower
- Roost / Thunderbolt
Mixnite can be an absolute terror in the right hands. For a full rundown on how this works, visit the Dragonite analysis.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence has two mixed Life Orbed Wall-breaking sets: NewMixmence and Classic Mixmence. The new Mixmence utilizes Draco Meteor and Outrage, often with high speed for a sweeping threat. The main reason why Dragonite is not outclassed by this varient is that the new Mixmence MUST Outrage to beat special walls, thus locking itself in for the easy steel switch-in. That often forces mixmence out to take more SR damage. Classic Mixmence plays very similar to this 'Nite, but must use the weaker Brick Break. This means the user has to predict the incoming Blissey to 2HKO, which means she can just switch out and recover health later. Mixnite flat out OHKOs her.
Set: Choice Band
Dragonite (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake / Superpower / Focus Punch
- Fire Punch
This set is listed because it can give stall teams an absolute nightmare.
This set 2HKOs everything in OU. Period.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
The difference between Choice Band Dragonite and Salamence is very subtle. This set fairs slightly better against stall teams than Choice Band Salamence, and is an easier fit for beginning players for another. For starters, a fighting move in the 3rd slot literally means the user does not have to predict at all. If you suspect a steel, you can use either Water Move or Fighting move since they both give perfect neutral coverage that I harp about in my last discussion. However, the difference for you advanced players against stall teams is that Choice Band Dragonite can 2HKO every pokemon in OU. Well, Salamence can too! But the subtle difference is that Dragonite has a physical Fire Move to maim Skarmory and Forretress. Salamence has to rely on a neutral nature and Fire Blast to beat them, and to 2HKO Celebi sometimes so it doesn't lock itself in. However, the reason this is significant against stall teams is the fact that Dragonite 2HKO physical walls with the Fire move will keep Blissey from being so eager to switch in unless its at full health. Don't underestimate the importance of this, since its easier to stall a Salamence that is using an unboosted special Fire move by prediction. Dragonite's Fire Punch allows for a steadier stream of damage and keeping Blissey at bay when playing against advanced predictors is instrumental.
Set: MixNite
Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 112 Atk/196 Spd/200 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Superpower
- Roost / Thunderbolt
Mixnite can be an absolute terror in the right hands. For a full rundown on how this works, visit the Dragonite analysis.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
Salamence has two mixed Life Orbed Wall-breaking sets: NewMixmence and Classic Mixmence. The new Mixmence utilizes Draco Meteor and Outrage, often with high speed for a sweeping threat. The main reason why Dragonite is not outclassed by this varient is that the new Mixmence MUST Outrage to beat special walls, thus locking itself in for the easy steel switch-in. That often forces mixmence out to take more SR damage. Classic Mixmence plays very similar to this 'Nite, but must use the weaker Brick Break. This means the user has to predict the incoming Blissey to 2HKO, which means she can just switch out and recover health later. Mixnite flat out OHKOs her.
Set: Choice Band
Dragonite (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake / Superpower / Focus Punch
- Fire Punch
This set is listed because it can give stall teams an absolute nightmare.
This set 2HKOs everything in OU. Period.
This is not outclassed by Salamence. Why?
The difference between Choice Band Dragonite and Salamence is very subtle. This set fairs slightly better against stall teams than Choice Band Salamence, and is an easier fit for beginning players for another. For starters, a fighting move in the 3rd slot literally means the user does not have to predict at all. If you suspect a steel, you can use either Water Move or Fighting move since they both give perfect neutral coverage that I harp about in my last discussion. However, the difference for you advanced players against stall teams is that Choice Band Dragonite can 2HKO every pokemon in OU. Well, Salamence can too! But the subtle difference is that Dragonite has a physical Fire Move to maim Skarmory and Forretress. Salamence has to rely on a neutral nature and Fire Blast to beat them, and to 2HKO Celebi sometimes so it doesn't lock itself in. However, the reason this is significant against stall teams is the fact that Dragonite 2HKO physical walls with the Fire move will keep Blissey from being so eager to switch in unless its at full health. Don't underestimate the importance of this, since its easier to stall a Salamence that is using an unboosted special Fire move by prediction. Dragonite's Fire Punch allows for a steadier stream of damage and keeping Blissey at bay when playing against advanced predictors is instrumental.
Conclusion!!!!
So after my absolutely horribly long OP, I hope you all will finally consider Dragonite for what he is: a DIFFERENT Pokemon than Salamence. Hes not inferior or superior really, it all depends on how you use him. So work on that Smogon, and I don't want to see anymore Jolly Dragonites!
Also, in the future, please refrain from "Dragonite sucks use Salamence" comments in the future, or us Dragonite lovers will refer you back to this thread. Thanks for reading!
Works Cited - Smogon Dragonite Analysis:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite
Also, in the future, please refrain from "Dragonite sucks use Salamence" comments in the future, or us Dragonite lovers will refer you back to this thread. Thanks for reading!
Works Cited - Smogon Dragonite Analysis:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite
