Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

The reason I'm bringing this up is simple. You can apply such logic to every uber that exists. You can bring it down, and claim that it is OU, using the "you can find ways to deal with them" line of logic. The metagame will always centralize around the most powerful, and of course people will find ways of dealing with it.
What makes a pokemon uber by that argument is if its checks are so gimmicky and specialized, such as scarf ice shard Weavile (for Rayquaza), Scarf Suicune/skill link Cloyster (d/p chomp), etc, they cannot effectively deal with other threats, and makes your team mostly specialized around beating that one pokemon, and prevents your team from handling other threats, or being a threat itself.
 
If a pokemon has a to wait until the mid to late game to sweep it is not uber based on the offensive characteristic.
I completely agree with and second this statement. Garchomp is best known for its ability to easily sweep late game. However, as stated above, Garchomp cannot simply come in early, or even mid game, and expect to sweep successfully. These facts make it very similar to most top-tier OU sweepers.
 
I'm thinking Garchomp is Uber and here's my main two reasons why.

1) Garchomp is a ridiculous wall breaker. It can poke holes in all teams, by drawing out certain pokemon that you want Garchomp to kill and then destroying them. This is the "no counters" aspect of Garchomp. It doesn't really matter that it is "easier to check" than Salamence and co, because Garchomp can bascially just net a kill before it dies, even early game, forcing some hole into your opponent's team.

I remember in DP I had a relatively good stall team, but I lost practically every time if the opponent just sent out Garchomp before I got my Toxic Spikes up. I was forced to Roar it out with Hippowdon, which left me much more vulnerable against Lucario, despite having my own Garchomp to help ease that burden.

In this way, Garchomp is a bit like Wobbufett (Tangerine pointed this out to me on IRC), as it basically says "fuck you I'm killing a mon you can't do anything about it". And similar to how you had to blindly guess in the dark about which pokemon would be best to 'sacrifice' against Wobbufett, you have to do with earlygame Garchomp "unless you have Skarmory" (though obviously this effect is lessened because you can switch against Garchomp while you can't against Wobb).

Still, what stops pokemon like Lucario or Salamence from being just as guilty of this trait? Lucario has many more pokemon that you can just switch into it early game, like Rotom-a, Gyarados, Zapdos, and Gliscor. With some of these pokemon you may have to hope that Lucario is not running <fourth move>, but really they are much more solid switchins overall than almost anything you can switch into Garchomp.

Salamence has, as many point out, longevity issues. This would seem not to apply when all its looking to do is kill one pokemon, but it also has a slightly harder time finding a chance to set up than Garchomp does. It also has the same amount of pokemon overall (actually more because of less bulk) that can come in on it and take a hit, and then proceed to kill it. MixMence, which does not need a set up, is also not guaranteed a kill the way Garchomp really is. Garchomp on the other hand, can switch in, take whatever hit you need it to while setting up (if it even takes a hit), and then just kill a mon.

2) (this one is much shakier... so if I'm doing this wrong tell me!) There is no reason not to use Garchomp on a team. It's just about that versatile, to work well in any style of play, especially offense. (I suppose you could argue that stall teams may not want Garchomp but I can easily argue from experience and theory that just placing ScarfChomp on a stall team works fine to help revenge kill threats "just in case"). Obviously other than the fact that he is highlighted on suspect, that is probably the next reason Garchomp has such insane usage. And... this limits the team building game quite a bit, and it actually (imo) makes the game a bit stale. Garchomp also magnifies this staleness thanks to the limited number of pokemon that are able to adequately check/counter it. The metagame almost forces you to run something that can act as a general Garchomp switchin, something able to revenge Haban Chomp (like Ice Beam Starmie), and something able to revenge Yache Chomp (like Latias). Or you can run some Garchomp lures... but I can firsthand tell you that lures lose their effectiveness, like in team NCIS (regardless of whether or not you find it to be a good team).

[20:25] <elevator_music> (there is no "stale characteristic" for uber though rolfkip)

And that's true... but I think there is something to be said for how limited Garchomp is to the team building process. Its astronomical usage practically forces teams to have filler/Garchomp/<initial Chomp switchin>/revenge killer 1/revenge killer 2/filler/filler.

The common argument against this is "oh well Starmie/Latias/ScarfTar/etc is common anyways... those pokemon serve other purposes". How many people use both Starmie and Latias on the same team in standard OU ? hint: not many... probably because there are boatloads of Scizor, Tyranitar, and Blissey on standard. How many would find this more practical on suspect? To illustrate this fact, Latias is Starmie's tenth most common partner on standard, while it is Starmie's fourth most common partner on suspect (if I could show it vice versa I would, but Starmie is not in Latias' top 5 on suspect, which are the only ones shown. To be fair though, it is Latias' 20th most used partner on standard). That's not to say that there aren't a lot of Scizor/Tar/Blissey's on suspect too, but Garchomp makes this advantageous to the team building process despite that!

Arc Tech put it well with:
What makes a pokemon uber by that argument is if its checks are so gimmicky and specialized, such as scarf ice shard Weavile (for Rayquaza), Scarf Suicune/skill link Cloyster (d/p chomp), etc, they cannot effectively deal with other threats, and makes your team mostly specialized around beating that one pokemon, and prevents your team from handling other threats, or being a threat itself.
This is unhealthy for any metagame. And I'm not quite certain how to draw this into any of the characteristics that we currently have (hence it being a much shakier argument...), but I would think that Garchomp not only supports teams by being such an incredible wall breaker, but also during the team building phase of pokemon, where it forces team builders to almost overly prepare for it at the cost of being less effective overall. The combination of the two, in my eyes, breaks support characteristic (actually I think Garchomp breaks support char in both of these ways, but I find it much more arguable that they do it in tandem...).


I really think this second point is more of an elaboration on the first point, but whatever. I'm tired. this is as good as it gets =s

Sorry if this sucks.
 
If a pokemon has a to wait until the mid to late game to sweep it is not uber based on the offensive characteristic.
This is not correct at all. A good majority of the Pokemon that are already, and uncontroversially, labeled "uber" also hold this same characteristic. There are only very exceptional circumstances where any Pokemon can sweep in the early portions of the game. The potential to immediately and easily sweep at the start of the battle is not what defines an uber, and the fact that Garchomp lacks this potential does not differentiate it from Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and overrall about 60% of the current "ubers". So unless you think all of those Pokemon should be OU as well, your argument really doesn't hold any water.
 

Delta 2777

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This is not correct at all. A good majority of the Pokemon that are already, and uncontroversially, labeled "uber" also hold this same characteristic. There are only very exceptional circumstances where any Pokemon can sweep in the early portions of the game. The potential to immediately and easily sweep at the start of the battle is not what defines an uber, and the fact that Garchomp lacks this potential does not differentiate it from Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and overrall about 60% of the current "ubers". So unless you think all of those Pokemon should be OU as well, your argument really doesn't hold any water.
I think it all comes down to the "with little effort" part of the Uber characteristic, whereas Rayquazza or Mewtwo can have a much easier time sweeping than Garchomp.

Still, previously being strict OU-Garchomp camp, I'm not sure what my opinion is anymore (as of five minutes ago, fantastic that it happens to be the day before voting starts lol). EM's post was interesting to me, although I have some different opinions from him. A while back I posted a list of pokemon who do "well" against Garchomp, meaning win 1 on 1 (so Chomp can't switch in unless said threat is severly weakened or paralyzed). I then gave a list of a bunch of lures that could be used to take Garchomp out. In total, I believe I came up with about 30 or so pokemon from OU alone, 40 with a bunch of gimmicky crap (lolol Skill Link Cloyster + Shuca Mawile).

I'm simply unsure of whether I like this meta or not. TBH, I usually like metagames with top-tier threats (unless they're rediculously annoying to deal with unless I make a team specifically designed to beat that one pokemon -.-), but Garchomp is just waaay too common. If Garchomp became the #1 most used poke in OU fine, If Garchomp vs. Garchomp speed ties occur once every ten games fine, if Garchomp is used on 8/10 teams in standard play (the other 2/10 being stall teams), well... That's what I'm unsure of. Pokemon is just that much less "skill" (if you can call it that) and that much less team building when its x/x/x/Garchomp Check/Garchomp Revenge Killer/Garchomp. :( If I do decide to vote it Uber (which I probably still won't but...), it'll be because the metagame is too centralized more than it is because Garchomp is too powerful.
 
2) (this one is much shakier... so if I'm doing this wrong tell me!) There is no reason not to use Garchomp on a team. It's just about that versatile, to work well in any style of play, especially offense. (I suppose you could argue that stall teams may not want Garchomp but I can easily argue from experience and theory that just placing ScarfChomp on a stall team works fine to help revenge kill threats "just in case"). Obviously other than the fact that he is highlighted on suspect, that is probably the next reason Garchomp has such insane usage. And... this limits the team building game quite a bit, and it actually (imo) makes the game a bit stale. Garchomp also magnifies this staleness thanks to the limited number of pokemon that are able to adequately check/counter it. The metagame almost forces you to run something that can act as a general Garchomp switchin, something able to revenge Haban Chomp (like Ice Beam Starmie), and something able to revenge Yache Chomp (like Latias). Or you can run some Garchomp lures... but I can firsthand tell you that lures lose their effectiveness, like in team NCIS (regardless of whether or not you find it to be a good team).
Garchomp is definitely usable on any team, from my experience and from the info I've gleaned talking to old DP players. But regarding the rest of your points:

'Staleness' is undesirable, but it wouldn't be a good reason IMO because any metagame inevitably becomes stale and centralized to one degree or another regardless of the Pokemon in it. However, the enthymeme (at least the enthymeme I derived) of your second point: that Garchomp can still sweep or score KOes with entire teams ready to stop it, is a good argument for it being Uber under the Offensive Characteristic.
 
I haven't said much while playing in the test, but here's my view of it (it came out a little long):

For the purpose of this post, Garchomp has a set of Swords Dance/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Fire Fang with a Jolly nature and is holding a Yache Berry.

Stealth Rocks are up on both sides of the field. The player with Garchomp on the field is referred to as the offensive player.

The situation is that the player brings in Garchomp on something it forces out, either after a kill or on a predicted Thunder Wave, ect. At this point, the defensive player can switch in any of the Pokemon listed below to either outspeed or take and hit and attack back as Garchomp Swords Dances. This is not a very uncommon situation in the course of a typical battle, as Garchomp can threaten a good amount of common OU Pokemon. After the switch, Garchomp is attacked as it hits back with its most effective move. There can be no advantage gained by the defensive player switching at this point, as that would allow Garchomp a 'free turn' which it would not otherwise get. Each of the pokemon below gets one attack, and their most effective and commonly used options are listed below:

Scizor, Choice Band: Bullet Punch(47.21-55.59)
Latias, Life Orb: Draco Meteor(OHKO), Dragon Pulse(OHKO)
Heatran, Choice Scarf: Dragon Pulse(69.27-81.56)
Infernape, Life Orb: Close Combat(63.69-74.86) w/neutral nature
Lucario, Life Orb: ExtremeSpeed(38.37% max damage)
Gengar, Choice Specs: HP-Ice(63.69-75.42)
Swampert, Leftovers: Ice Beam(37.99-45.25), Avalanche(54.75-64.80) w/min attacking stat
Starmie, Life Orb: Ice Beam(72.07-84.92)
Azelf, Life Orb: Psychic(59.78-70.67), Explosion(OHKO)
Skarmory, N/A: Whirlwind(N/A)
Flygon, Choice Scarf: Outrage(OHKO) w/neutral nature
Jolteon, Choice Specs: HP-Ice(71.51-84.36)
Suicune, Leftovers: Ice Beam(40.22,47.49) w/min sp.attack
Bronzong, Leftovers: Gyro Ball(41.06-48.6), Explosion(90.5-106.7) w/min attack
Weavile, Choice Band: Ice Shard(56.98-67.6), Ice Punch(OHKO)
Aerodactyl, Focus Sash: Ice Fang(34.64-40.78) w/252ev, neutral nature
Mamoswine, Choice Band: Ice Shard(60.89-72.07)
Cresselia, Leftovers: Ice Beam(46.37-54.75) w/252ev, neutral nature
Crobat, Life Orb: Brave Bird(60.61-71.51)
Alakazam, Choice Specs: Psychic(79.61-93.85), 2.56% chance OHKO w/SR
Dugtrio, Choice Band: Earthquake(56.98-67.04)
Ambipom, Life Orb: Fake Out(34.36-40.5), Double Hit(59.22-70.4), Return(56.42-66.48)

All damage calculations assume 252evs and a positive nature unless noted. Attacks noted at a OHKO are regardless of entry hazards or any previous damage. Usage stats are from October on the standard ladder. Only pokemon in the top 60 in usage are listed.

Some other pokemon could use a Choice Scarf and/or uncommon move to hit Garchomp, but that will be addressed later. Of the above choices, four have a clean OHKO and two more will OHKO some of the time.

-Latias forces Garchomp out. It has two options to outspeed and OHKO Garchomp without harming itself. However, Latias cannot switch into a Dragon attack, and is not a very good initial switch in, although it is the closest to a counter that can be found.

-Azelf can explode to take out Garchomp. Each player loses one Pokemon, and this aspect of the battle is a draw.

-Choice Scarf Flygon can use Outrage to OHKO Garchomp. However, Flygon is in the same situation as Latias in that it cannot switch into a Dragon attack, but can outspeed and OHKO once it is in. The majority of Flygon already hold a Choice Scarf.

-Bronzong can explode for an 80% chance to OHKO Garchomp. This is a similar situation to Azelf. The chance of a critical hit or Fire Fang critical hit are small, but will happen from time to time.

-Choice Band Weavile can switch in and OHKO with Ice Punch. However, Weavile cannot switch into an attack itself, leading to another situation similar to Latias. About 1/4 of Weavile hold a Choice Band.

-Choice Specs Alakazam will be mentioned as it has a 2.56% chance to outspeed and OHKO Garchomp, however this percentage is so low that it should not be considered a reliable way to take out Garchomp before it can attack.

Skarmory presents a unique situation. It can switch in and Whirlwind Garchomp out, essentially putting off the situation for later. Skarmory will take a signifcant amount of damage while doing so, but will force Garchomp out barring a flinch or critical hit. This will result in the same situation occuring later in the match, although Garchomp will take entry hazard damage upon switching in again. If Stealth Rocks are the only hazard up, the only significant difference will be that Bronzong's Explosion is guarenteed the OHKO. This can be a viable stratagy on teams that employ additional entry hazards and are able to keep them on the field.

Ambipom is another unique situation. Its Fake Out allows it the chance to 2HKO Garchomp without being hit. There is about a 50% chance that Ambipom can do this with a combination of Fake Out followed by either Double Hit or Return. The chance is slightly higher for Double Hit, but this options presents the opportunity for a miss yielding no additional damage. Ambipom is also the least used Pokemon mentioned, and, being this uncommon on current OU teams, is not a large factor in taking down an opposing Garchomp.

Now, if the defensive player does not have one of the above options, they must use another Pokemon on the list to attack Garchomp for as much damage as possible. This attack will deal a varying amount of damage, but not enough to take out Garchomp. Therefore, it is imperative that the user use at least two of the above Pokemon with the listed moves/items. Once again, there may be other options, especially in choice of items, but these are the most common and powerful in the current OU metagame that accomplish this task. Upon seeing this second pokemon, Garchomp can switch out and come back in later without a harmful side effect, as it will have a reasonable amount of HP (40-50% is not uncommon) and will not take much damage on the next switch in. Garchomp's good defenses for a sweeper of it's power make this possible.

As many common OU pokemon are on this list, it is not a stretch that two of them be used. Upon closer glance though, Heatran must run a certain set, as must Gengar, Flygon and Weavile to provide the support needed. Other than Flygon, these Pokemon do not use these sets the majority of the time. Latias loses out on the sure OHKO if it uses either of it's two most common items, Leftovers and Choice Scarf, with Dragon Pulse. Aerodactyl is used almost exclusivly as a lead, so its ability to check Garchomp later in the game is questionable. Swampert must be at high health to check Garchomp, and could not be if used in the lead slot, which it frequently is.

This situation could arise at many points in the mid-game, so there is the possibility that one of your Garchomp checks has fainted and can't provide the support you need. Therefore, it is very reasonable to need to use three of these checks to stop Garchomp. Another reason to need three checks is Sand Veil. Now, the ability will not always be active, but it must be acknowledged. As most of these checks require that Garchomp be hit twice to take it down, Sand Veil makes it only a 64% chance that both of these attacks hit. Having a third check raises the chance to stopping Garchomp's sweep to 89.6%. With Sand Veil not always active, this represents a very reasonable chance to stop Garchomp.

For the reason of needing this third check to stop Garchomp from sweeping, I believe that Garchomp is Uber under the Offensive Characteristic. There is no other OU sweeper that currently requires three checks to ensure that it does not sweep. For example, Salamence, in the same situations, can be forced to Outrage and then taken out by a number of pokemon or taken out by priority regardless of what move it uses. It also does not have the luxary of being able to switch in a second time without any negative effects if it gets forced out. In some cases, Salamence can even be stopped by a single Pokemon such a defensive Swampert. Lucario does not need more than two checks in any case, as by choosing between Ice Punch, Crunch, and Thunder Punch, it looses coverage on key checks. With most Lucario opting for Cruch now, it has somewhat reliable counters in Gliscor and Gyarados. The counters to these OU sweepers may be weakened when they come out, just as Garchomp's may, but a second check alleviates many of the issues this poses. This is not so much the case for Garchomp.

For needing to choose three checks from a small list of possibilities, Garchomp fits the Offensive Characteristic. This forces drastic changes in a metagame where half of these checks are seen on less than 7% of current teams. In playing the suspect metagame, many of these checks are seeing huge jumps in usage. Skarmory, Bronzong, Scizor, Latias are all being used much more than in a Garchomp-less metagame, showing just how necessary it is to use these checks. Of the other checks, most have not fallen in usage. This shows the increased usage of Garchomp checks--and not by a small amount (Skarmory usage in particular has skyrocketed). The induction of a new, powerful Pokemon into OU should cause changes, but not the extent that Garchomp forces.
 
@Reflect Suicune:
If a good uber sweeper such as Darkrai or Mewtwo was brought into OU I bet it would sweep a large portion of the opponent's team with relative ease at any time during the battle. Garchomp cannot simply come in at any time during the battle and expect to sweep.

@Delta 2777:
I hate overcentralization and lack of diversity as much as anyone. However, I don't think that Garchomp can be judged correctly when played in the Suspect arena. In Suspect Garchomp (and Manaphy and Latias) is what's on people's minds. It is used 80% of the time because it is the focus attention. In Standard OU, if Chomp is brought down, it will not be used nearly as much.
 
I'm going to now challenge the Garchomp OU Camp to answer the following question.

What stops your arguments from being used against Rayquaza? What stops your arguments from being used against even slower sweepers? Why is it that these Pokemon are Uber and Garchomp isn't? This is the line that you guys need to establish, what makes Garchomp not uber not just because "he's too slow to sweep" or "he's not bulky enough" or "We can deal with him because he has a 4x ice weak", why doesn't similar arguments hold for the currently Uber Pokemon?
I'm trying to follow you, I really am, and I appreciate your efforts to bring proper perspective and fairness to the discussion.
However, I think you have raised the bar impossibly high for anyone making the argument that Garchomp is not Uber.

Basically, what you have said is that we cannot argue that he does not fulfil the Uber characteristics.
We cannot argue that his speed does not give him enough of a jump on the metagame to sweep with little effort.
We cannot argue that he is not bulky enough to serve as a game breaking defensive wall.
Is the Garchomp is Uber camp equivalently banned from arguing that he fits the characteristics?
If so, then on what basis does any side have to construct an argument?

I don't think the arguments are as threadbare as you suggest either.
There have been very detailed posts on what outruns Garchomp and hopw much damage he does and takes.
So I don't think we have been merely saying he's 'too slow' etc though that might be said, in SUMMARY, after points were made.

That's the issue with the line of thought users like deluge, RaikouLover, and Ciaran are using, and while I think it's effective in giving another perspective to the current "GARCHOMP IS UBER BECAUSE IT DOES THIS", you need to establish why Garchomp isn't uber and everything else is still uber. This is the issue with the Garchomp is OU line of thought, and since it'll be completely uproductive and handwaving to try and prove Garchomp is OU in such a manner, I recommend you guys find a new line of attack, or clarify the arguments more (RL's entire post fails if you start applying the same concept to other ubers, for example, and all the other posts are completely handwavy)
The Garchomp is Uber camp's arguments can be likewise applied to current OU Pokemon and that deficiency has been exploited and often poorly refuted.
Therefore, it would seem to me that if anyone on the other side believes that our argument applies equally to some current Uber they should raise than point so that we can respond.
[These challenges often prove absurd since it'll be obvious after a little consideration why the Uber in question outclasses Chomp in OU]
It seems counter-productive for us to go through and pre-emptively enumerate why every Pokemon that is ALREADY considered Uber is REALLY Uber.
It is irrelevant, IMO, UNLESS someone issues that challenge that our argument admits them.

So if someone says that Rayquaza fits our argument we can say what its much higher attack allows it to OHKO and how ExtremeSpeed or DD allows it to circumvent speed issues making it likely to be overwhelming in OU unlike Garchomp.
There is no better argument we can make for Rayquaza's Uber status as it has never actually been tested alongside the current OU Pokemon!
So we can only argue how its traits would likely make it overwhelming in the OU metagame above and beyond what Garchomp is able to do.
However, this is apparently not acceptable to you given your admonishment of another poster so it makes we wonder what would be acceptable.

Actually, I can't really think of any argument that does not run afoul of your latest guidance since we're obviously going to relate Chomp's traits to the metagame.
I would respectfully ask you to clarify or else the thread is essentially closed.
Not a big deal anyway, since the sides will never agree.
 

Tangerine

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Basically, what you have said is that we cannot argue that he does not fulfil the Uber characteristics.
We cannot argue that his speed does not give him enough of a jump on the metagame to sweep with little effort.
We cannot argue that he is not bulky enough to serve as a game breaking defensive wall.
Is the Garchomp is Uber camp equivalently banned from arguing that he fits the characteristics?
If so, then on what basis does any side have to construct an argument?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1703006&postcount=46

The arguments I want are specific metagame based arguments.

You can't argue that his speed does not give him enough of a jump. You have to show this to me. Which Pokemon, in particular, are capable of serving as checks? And even if these Pokemon are used, can a Pokemon still perform what it intends to do? Does using these Pokemon make it more difficult for people to deal with other more significant threats?

You can't only use traits. Traits by themselves, are nothing and its only a way to trivialize what a Pokemon can do. A simple comparison is similar.

You have to argue based on metagame centralization in the context of the Offense/Defense/Support characteristics, that's the key. The characteristics ask you to tell us what portion is indeed "significant". This is precisely what this user tried to do and I believe he did it effectively.

I don't think the arguments are as threadbare as you suggest either.
There have been very detailed posts on what outruns Garchomp and hopw much damage he does and takes.
So I don't think we have been merely saying he's 'too slow' etc though that might be said, in SUMMARY, after points were made.
I'm sorry I wasn't around earlier to moderate the thread so that you guys had to start resorting to summaries. But honestly, I really don't have the time to read through all of those posts.

But the point is this. If you tell me "it's too slow", then the first thing I think is "What about the ubers that are slower than Garchomp and lack a priority move"? You can't use that as an argument, it needs to be backed up (you can perform this by linking to a previous post)

The Garchomp is Uber camp's arguments can be likewise applied to current OU Pokemon and that deficiency has been exploited and often refuted unsatisfactorily.
Therefore, it would seem to me that if anyone on the other side believes that our argument applies equally to some current Uber they should raise than point so that we can respond.
It seems counter-productive for us to go through and pre-emptively enumerate why every Pokemon that is ALREADY considered Uber is REALLY Uber.
It is irrelevant, IMO, UNLESS someone issues that challenge that our argument admits them.
Yes, the Garchomp is Uber camp's arguments can be likewise applied to current OU Pokemon. I never said they were doing a great job overall.

But I honestly don't want this discussion to be "It's OU automatically and we just have to disprove it so", since that kind of discussion is limiting (this isn't a debate we're doing for points now, afterall). This is why I'm emphasizing that you guys also draw lines and clarify your views.

Actually, I can't really think of any argument that does not run afoul of your latest guidance since we're obviously going to relate Chomp's traits to the metagame.
I would respectfully ask you to clarify or else the thread is essentially closed.
Not a big deal anyway, since the sides will never agree.
See the link in my sig - it should cover all of the basics (it'll need to be updated however, in the future). But the biggest thing everyone needs to realize is that you're not convincing anyone by repeating traits and saying that the traits are "good enough". I want to see people use the statistics that we have, and use those statistics to put together an argument. I want to see which Pokemon can be used to stop garchomp and how using these Pokemon isn't "too much" in the sense that it doesn't make you instantly weak to threats. That's literally the only way you can argue since nothing is inherently broken but broken relative to the metagame at hand. This is why I'm linking to alot of the longer posts as "good", mostly because they do a good job covering a lot of the options available and what happens.

The way you're approaching right now is that you're trying to just trivialize Garchomp and say "It's just another top OU sweeper". That's fine, but you can't just say "LO Salamence hits harder" or "Lucario hits just as hard", etc etc, but that's not honestly enough since you have to look at it beyond just it's ability to 6-0, but what it can do for someone's team relative to the metagame at hand.

One thing you guys can do is to firmly establish the OU/Uber line (no, not just saying "it's too slow" or "you can sacrifice a Pokemon for it" since all of those arguments also apply to our current ubers), but establish it in terms of the metagame effects (like bigfoot did).

I hope that clarifies things.
 
Thank you very much Tangerine+, that does clarify!

Though, in all fairness the comparison with other OU sweepers was more a counter-argument to the claims that Garchomp was over-powered rather than a standalone argument in itself (but I think you had acknowledged that).
Furthermore even in that counter-argument, Garchomp's traits were linked to the metagame in pointing out that his great defensive stats actually mean less than resistances aginst some common attacks.

Also, inasmuch as the ability to contain it though sacrifice and revenge killing might apply to certain current Ubers, the lack of 100% reliable counters applies to existing OU Pokemon sets as well.
Therefore, I think it is important, for consistency, not to arbitrarily apply criteria to Garchomp that we are not applying to other Pokemon we accept in the OU tier.

But the above is an aside.
I do understand your point now and think a thread reboot with better moderation is a good idea.
 
Tangerine, why is that, as a Garchomp for OU proposer, we simply have to prove he isn't Uber? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Smogon strives to acheive a viable metagame with the least amount of bans possible, and runs on the basis of the old Latin dictum that the burden of proof lies upon the accuser and not the defendant. Under that process of logic, all Pokemon are considered unbanned, until they have been proven to be worthy of a ban. As a Garchomp for OU proposer, if I was required to explain why Garchomp is OU, then I'd require "OU Characteristics", which we simply don't have. Instead, in order for Garchomp to be OU, I should simply have to point out he doesn't fit any of the Uber Characteristics, which to my mind he doesn't.
 

Tangerine

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Tangerine, why is that, as a Garchomp for OU proposer, we simply have to prove he isn't Uber? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Smogon strives to acheive a viable metagame with the least amount of bans possible, and runs on the basis of the old Latin dictum that the burden of proof lies upon the accuser and not the defendant. Under that process of logic, all Pokemon are considered unbanned, until they have been proven to be worthy of a ban. As a Garchomp for OU proposer, if I was required to explain why Garchomp is OU, then I'd require "OU Characteristics", which we simply don't have. Instead, in order for Garchomp to be OU, I should simply have to point out he doesn't fit any of the Uber Characteristics, which to my mind he doesn't.
You can't point out garchomp doesn't fit any of the Uber Characteristics.

You need to prove to me that Garchomp doesn't fit any of the Uber characteristics.

Nowhere did I ever say you can't define OU by "does not satisfy the Uber characteristics". The point is that you need to prove this, and my entire series of posts was simply pointing out how some people approach the proof is completely and utterly wrong (making statements based on traits rather than metagame effects)

Finally, notice that this is a discussion. We're not scoring for points (if we were, then yes, I'd 100% agree with you), since that kind of system makes any sort of discussion pointless. The point of this thread is to discuss so that others can make informed decisions, or to help many of you clarify your views.
 
ps the test is over tonight, one month etc

"dont bother cramming for this"
So playing suspect won't do anything starting today? Cool.

If I retain my voters right's this round I am going to be voting Latias OU (this needs no explanation), Manaphy OU (I beleive we vote OU or Uber based on their power in the Suspect Metagame. Manaphy is defininitly not overpowered here, and its likely to be tested again if Chomp goes Uber), and Chomp to ubers just like I did last time.

Now since Chomp seems to be the main subject over all else, I guess I should have a lenghier explanation. Garchomp is a solid poke, with minimal flaws and excels near perfect in the current metagame, resisting both SR and Sand, having a speed that will ensure speed ties won't happen (though opposing Chomp's make this occur much too often anyway, lol), and enough attack, SD, and STABs to be a fierce attacker WHILE still holding a defensive item in most cases to further protect it. Most sweepers arn't holding defensive berries, they need the power of LO to achieve a sweep. Garchomp on the other hand can pick an item that essentially nueters either Ice types or Latias, other Chomps, and other Scarf Dragons from stopping it.

Choice Chomps are dangerous too, but I feel they arn't exacly broken (although if an opponent expects an SD set and its really a scarf set, it could be bad. Plus SD Chomp can bluff Scarf by switching in on Latias or something and scare it out). Really though, I feel the common Skarmory or Bronzong can easily take these sets. However, against SD, Skarm takes roughly 50% while only forcing Chomp out of combat, and Zong must explode or be lucky with Hypnosis.

I also agree with many other arguements for it being uber already mentioned here (except the overcentralizing thing. Chomp allowed in OU for possibly the last time and being a suspect means people are obviously going to use it, it means nothing).
 
I don't have a problem with most of what bigfoots says as most of it is true and factual.
However, his conclusion, that Garchomp is Uber based on what he said is still open to question.

For example:

For the reason of needing this third check to stop Garchomp from sweeping, I believe that Garchomp is Uber under the Offensive Characteristic. There is no other OU sweeper that currently requires three checks to ensure that it does not sweep. For example, Salamence, in the same situations, can be forced to Outrage and then taken out by a number of pokemon or taken out by priority regardless of what move it uses. It also does not have the luxary of being able to switch in a second time without any negative effects if it gets forced out. In some cases, Salamence can even be stopped by a single Pokemon such a defensive Swampert.
I think the comparison with Salamence trivializes it in comparison with Garchomp.
Though this helps to make the point of the threat Garchomp presents, I think it ignores a few factors.

The list of Garchomp checks from the most used Pokemon is relatively small but I can construct the Salamence list by basically crossing off the Garchomp list.
[Exotic scarfers could work but we're talking about common sets, and things like Scarf Latias could be added to the Chomp list as well]

All of the below are outrun and OHKOed by a +1 attack so they can be crossed off:

Latias, Life Orb
Heatran, Choice Scarf
Infernape, Life Orb
[may use Fake Out but that set is usually a sucide lead]
Gengar, Choice Specs
Starmie, Life Orb
Azelf, Life Orb
Skarmory
Jolteon, Choice Specs
Aerodactyl, Focus Sash
[usually suicide lead, low chance of having sash mid-game with SR]
Crobat, Life Orb
Alakazam, Choice Specs

So that leaves us with:

Scizor,
Lucario,
Swampert,
Flygon, Choice Scarf
Suicune,
Bronzong,
Weavile,
Mamoswine,
Cresselia,
Dugtrio
Ambipom

Similar to what was pointed out for Garchomp, a minority switch in without risk as
Scizor
Lucario
Flygon
Weavile
Mamoswine
Dugtrio
Ambipom
are all OHKOed by a move Salamence has even if unboosted by DD.
The remaining bulky ones had better be in pristine health as they take +1 LO Outrage for the majority of their health.
And of course the consequence of being locked into Outrage is the same for Garchomp as it is for Salamence.

Granted, the reasonable Salamence checks are more likely to score KOs due to LO recoil and the absence of Yache or Sand Veil but they are fewer in number and are thus more vulnerable to being weakened or eliminated before Mence beings to sweep.
So Garchomp's advantage really comes down to being able to avoid an attack if Sand Veil activates and require two Ice attacks (w/o SV) to take down with Yache (though more things are able to deliver the 2nd hit without being hit themselves than Salamence).
I had already considered this and thought this was not enough to make Garchomp Uber but I suppose this is a matter of opinion.

Just a few concluding notes:

1. Specs Starmie wasn't mentioned but it has a good chance to OHKO through Yache with SR.

2. I do believe usage percentages in Suspect are somewhat artificial so I'm not sure what to glean from them.
 
Not to mention Specs Starmie can also do 78-93% with Hydro Pump and a Timid nature, just for the sake of listing who you don't HAVE to always use the Ice Attack in every situation....

And Mudkip, I don't mean to completely rip up your argument, but it really isn't what Tangerine said hes looking for:

Garchomp is a solid poke, with minimal flaws and excels near perfect in the current metagame, resisting both SR and Sand, having a speed that will ensure speed ties won't happen (though opposing Chomp's make this occur much too often anyway, lol), and enough attack, SD, and STABs to be a fierce attacker WHILE still holding a defensive item in most cases to further protect it.
Your listing traits. This proves nothing.

Most sweepers arn't holding defensive berries, they need the power of LO to achieve a sweep. Garchomp on the other hand can pick an item that essentially nueters either Ice types or Latias, other Chomps, and other Scarf Dragons from stopping it.
I already explained a page back how Salamence and Lucario not only can out-damage Chomp, but they can take out threats normally faster than them, which Chomp can't do.

Choice Chomps are dangerous too, but I feel they arn't exacly broken (although if an opponent expects an SD set and its really a scarf set, it could be bad.
Choice Scarf alone was used in the same frequency as SD yache / haban sets, yet this is the set that apparently makes Chomp Uber? You just stated yourself they aren't broken, and this isn't even taking into acount Choice Band, SubSalac and LO (which no one complains about either 3 of those being impossible to counter or "broken").

EDIT: Just to clarify:
| Garchomp | Item | Choice Scarf | 33.4 |
| Garchomp | Item | Haban Berry | 20.5 |
| Garchomp | Item | Yache Berry | 12.9 |
| Garchomp | Item | Salac Berry | 12 |


I also agree with many other arguements for it being uber already mentioned here (except the overcentralizing thing. Chomp allowed in OU for possibly the last time and being a suspect means people are obviously going to use it, it means nothing).
Yes.
 
You can't point out garchomp doesn't fit any of the Uber Characteristics.

You need to prove to me that Garchomp doesn't fit any of the Uber characteristics.

Nowhere did I ever say you can't define OU by "does not satisfy the Uber characteristics". The point is that you need to prove this, and my entire series of posts was simply pointing out how some people approach the proof is completely and utterly wrong (making statements based on traits rather than metagame effects)

Finally, notice that this is a discussion. We're not scoring for points (if we were, then yes, I'd 100% agree with you), since that kind of system makes any sort of discussion pointless. The point of this thread is to discuss so that others can make informed decisions, or to help many of you clarify your views.
Mmhm, I get it. The only quandry I have left is this: the Uber categories are not exact, and cannot be quantified. As such, it is entirely impossible for either side to "prove" anything, since the subject matter is largely subjective - ie, how good is too good? Since neither side can prove anything, this will end up cycling (which it devolved to briefly earlier), with each side repeating what's happened before, and only very few posts dealing with relevant subject matter. In order to prevent this from happening, is there any chance posts which are simply lists of traits or otherwise fallacious can be deleted, so this thread can be streamlined? I know it would be a lot to ask, but I really think it'd help.
 

Tangerine

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Mmhm, I get it. The only quandry I have left is this: the Uber categories are not exact, and cannot be quantified. As such, it is entirely impossible for either side to "prove" anything, since the subject matter is largely subjective - ie, how good is too good?
If we could actually prove something, we would never have the suspect test to begin with. The biggest reason we had this entire suspect test was because people were incapable of generally putting together solid arguments.

But yes, what you said is correct. It's hard to actually 100% prove something, and to a certain extent, it depends on the style of play you prefer. The idea is to prove it the best you can using the data you have available, and make it logically consistent so that the only thing you can attack is the preference portion.

It's difficult, especially without any solid theory (since no one actually cares about the theory, apparently) so that everyone has to make their own theory up, but it's possible.
 
Tangerine said:
It's difficult, especially without any solid theory (since no one actually cares about the theory, apparently) so that everyone has to make their own theory up, but it's possible.
nothing is ever solid because it's not always possible.

Especially since not all theorys come to pass in actual combat since no one knows what the enemy is holding, sure Garchomp packing a Yache Berry is a good guess but they could be scarfing or banding or holding something else too like an expert belt.

Once one enters a battle nothing can be changed, you have to stick with what you have until it's all over.

As a side note where does the voting take place at? i'd like to see the results.
 
So just to clarify, testing is over right? So all that's left is determining who has voting rights and all the other stuff that goes along with it?
 
I already explained a page back how Salamence and Lucario not only can out-damage Chomp, but they can take out threats normally faster than them, which Chomp can't do.

Yes.
Why is that relevant?
A life orb Garchomp outdamages both. Also the fact that it doesn´t need life orb to sweep is frightening enough.
 
Why is that relevant?
A life orb Garchomp outdamages both. Also the fact that it doesn´t need life orb to sweep is frightening enough.
The reason that most Garchomp don't use Life Orb is because they are more susceptible to revenge killing than Lucario or Salamence. Salamence can boost its Speed to ridiculous levels and Lucario has Extremespeed. So, Garchomp needs a berry for the extra protection against super effective attacks.
 

Tangerine

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RaikouLover, you're not getting it.

I already explained a page back how Salamence and Lucario not only can out-damage Chomp, but they can take out threats normally faster than them, which Chomp can't do.
Out-damaging does not mean anything. You are absolutely TRIVIALIZING what a Pokemon can do and turning them into single dimensional entities. Your posts here have been absolutely atrocious in that regard considering your arguments have been consistently doing this.

"They can take out threats normally faster than them", So what? That statement is also wrong, why can't Garchomp do that? There's a TRADE-OFF involved in using Lucario and Salamance but of course, you choose to analyze them in only the way that makes your argument look good. Oh, Lucario can OHKO some threats Garchomp cannot. So what? Lucario is NOT Garchomp, Garchomp has utility beyond it's role as a "PURE" Sweeper. The fact that Lucario can "deal with" things that can revengekill chomp doesn't mean anything since they are DIFFERENT Pokemon. You'll have to explain why the DIFFERENCE doesn't matter and you'll have an argument (Hint: the difference does matter so yeah...)
 
RaikouLover, you're not getting it.

Out-damaging does not mean anything. You are absolutely TRIVIALIZING what a Pokemon can do and turning them into single dimensional entities. Your posts here have been absolutely atrocious in that regard considering your arguments have been consistently doing this.

"They can take out threats normally faster than them", So what? That statement is also wrong, why can't Garchomp do that? There's a TRADE-OFF involved in using Lucario and Salamance but of course, you choose to analyze them in only the way that makes your argument look good. Oh, Lucario can OHKO some threats Garchomp cannot. So what? Lucario is NOT Garchomp, Garchomp has utility beyond it's role as a "PURE" Sweeper. The fact that Lucario can "deal with" things that can revengekill chomp doesn't mean anything since they are DIFFERENT Pokemon. You'll have to explain why the DIFFERENCE doesn't matter and you'll have an argument (Hint: the difference does matter so yeah...)
I agree and disagree with you Tangerine.
A simple comparison of two different Pokemon to conclude one is better is indeed erroneous.
However, the purpose of the Uber characteristics is to establish some particular ASPECTS we can compare.
Outdamaging and outspeeding are extremely relevant when one is discussing how a particular Pokemon fulfils a particular Uber characteristic such as offense.

In other words, the offensive characteristics asks the question about Garchomp AS A SWEEPER!
Yes, he has other attributes and can fulfil other roles but those are irrelevant from the perspective of whether he fulfils the OFFENSIVE characteristic just as Wobuffets inability to sweep is irrelevant to whether it fulfils the support characterstic.
So comparing Garchomp, AS A SWEEPER, to another Pokemon, AS A SWEEPER does not trivialize Garchomp anymore than it trivializes the other Pokemon.
A single Garchomp cannot simultaneously fulfill the role of sweeper, defender and supporter effectively so comparing one dimension of Garchomp to other Pokemon, IN THAT DIMENSION or CAPACITY, is completely relevant and logical in my opinion.

Now maybe Garchomp is a better defender than Salamence but the question we have to ask is whether Garchomp is a broken wall relative to other OU walls and attacks not whether it is a better wall than a Pokemon that sweeps on par or better than it.
IOW, we need to prove that it is broken in its performance of any of its roles not that the ability to perform multiple roles converges most impressively in Garchomp.
However, your complaint that assessing Garchomp strictly as a sweeper trivializes it swings very dangerously in the direction of giving more weight to its versatility (which is not even that excessive) than the question of whether any of its particular activities breaks the metagame.
Remember, a particular Garchomp cannot do everything at once.

Whew...I've finally been able to articulate what has been nagging me about what you've been saying.
 

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