Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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hell, or even a footnote in the vote post itself. explaining that "oh by the way this member didn't vote because [insert reason]" would spark a lot less outrage. even if you think the outrage is unreasonable, it's preventable

People really shouldn't be getting pissed because one guy abstained from one vote regardless of the reason and if said reason was or wasn't published, it's really pathetic. These are volunteers we're talking about and people have lives.
 
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I literally mentioned it here hours ago, on discord, and on Twitter. I do not know what more you can possibly want.
I see, that's my mistake, then. While I am not a part of the discord and rarely use twitter, I did miss/skim over his mention in this post (and it wasn't picked up in my search to try and find stuff mentioning xav since I only searched 'xavgb' in this thread) and that's on me. Apologies.
 
Lol people losing their mind..

some of the sentiment is a little explainable.

it’s not like it was rocket science to see that if Chien-Pao (not CP:mad:) was busted with these near broken threats in the tier, it would be worse if even just 1 of them left.

anyway, it’s enjoyable now, mag was way overdue a quick ban, it and eleki warped the meta too much.

It’s still warped, just less extremely, and now let’s see how things progress!

Not being quick banned don’t mean it won’t be removed lmao.
 
I'm unhappy about the quickban threshold being lowered give that regular suspect tests require a 60%+1 vote, and 2/3 is not much higher that, but I guess the OU Council can't please everyone. I believe that the higher the threshold is, the less likely we get a reactionary ban. This is not to say I think Zamazenta-C and Chien-Pao are balanced though. I just like it when the testing process is as rigorous and objective as possible.
 
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Hello, I figured I'd explain my votes. I will order the subjects from most problematic to least problematic in my eyes.

My ban votes:
:magearna: :chien-pao:

Magearna should be clear. Setup sets with Calm Mind + Shift Gear/Iron Defense + Stored Power + Draining Kiss have a very limited range of checks, have proven to be too much when you add in Dual Screens, Weakness Policy, and Tera, and can easily snowball out of control. If that's not enough, it can catch you off guard with an absurdly wide array of other devastating sets to boot, ranging from Choice Specs to Spikes.

Chien-Pao was banned with a suspect test earlier this generation and remains tremendously strong. I voted to drop it back into the tier with the idea that Pokemon like Zamazenta (both forms), Magearna, and Urshifu and a higher general power level would help combat it. However, while they help to a certain degree, Chien-Pao's damage output just remains too much. For instance, Choice Band + Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOs Magearna, Urshifu, and the vast majority of the rest of the metagame. It helps that Sacred Sword allows it to cleave past Zamazenta's Defense boost, while priority options in Ice Shard and Sucker Punch make it a strong revenge killer on top of an oppressive wallbreaker.

My do not ban votes:
:zamazenta-crowned: :zamazenta: :sneasler: :urshifu-rapid-strike: :ursaluna: :volcarona: :light clay:

While I agree that some of these Pokemon have problematic elements, mainly the Iron Defense Zamazenta sets sweeping ill-prepared teams and Dire Claw cheesing past Sneasler's checks, in my personal opinion not quite enough time has passed to confidently say these Pokemon are outright broken. Frankly, I think people that argue that most of these should have been blatant quickbans in this slate are kneejerking too hard, similar to Walking Wake's first couple days in the tier. Hypothetically speaking from hindsight, I'd rather have kept a broken Pokemon in the tier a couple days longer than have wrongfully quickbanned a balanced Pokemon. It has been a mere five days, two quickbans have taken place since release (though I do personally wish it were three) and I would like to give these Pokemon a couple more days in this fresh metagame before I reassess their place in it and adjust my vote accordingly in the next quickban slate that will take place this upcoming week. The new 2/3 rather than >2/3 treshold should also mean that this slate will result in additional quickbans.

As for Light Clay, I believe the fact that it's on the radar is a symptom of certain Pokemon being broken, like Magearna, rather than the item itself.
great writeup, really appreciate you guys discussing your votes. whilst i disagree with your Zama votes (id have voted the same as Star did), your reasoning makes sense, especially with the Wake comparison who was never broken and was only suspected out of collective inexperience. if you think the Zamas aren't as outright broken as something like Pao, it does make more sense to hold off for a few more days.
 
Honestly, as this point idgaf. I asked for my account to be nuked like two or three months ago or something like that. It took them many weeks to even get back to me, asking if I still wanted it deleted. I said yes, and still no action has been taken.

bro just get offline and go outside, you don't get to be an asshole just because you can't control yourself, i disagree with the councils current decission as well but that doesn't mean i can be an ass about it
 
Zapdos in UU is just what. Mon fits very well into the tier both offensively and defensively. It's not dropping.

I don't know, i'm not saying its not good in OU, its still really solid, but it kinda feels a lot worse and a little underwhelming sometimes this gen without its utility so I could see it, and if I want to use an offensive flying type, I would just use torn-t unless my team really needs the defensive qualities of zapdos, and I very much think its dropping this gen, as it just kinda feels like it misses the mark a tiny bit
 
Lol people losing their mind..

some of the sentiment is a little explainable.

it’s not like it was rocket science to see that if Chien-Pao (not CP:mad:) was busted with these near broken threats in the tier, it would be worse if even just 1 of them left.

anyway, it’s enjoyable now, mag was way overdue a quick ban, it and eleki warped the meta too much.

It’s still warped, just less extremely, and now let’s see how things progress!

Not being quick banned don’t mean it won’t be removed lmao.

I kinda see why people are pissed when things dont get QBed as fast in this gen, considering it has brought some monsters. It shouldn't be taken for granted that tiering action this gen has been faster than any previous one afaik, but i kinda understand the frustration with Chien-Pao and maybe Luna staying (personally I haven't had too much issue with the zamas but others disagree). It's quite stupid to get pissed off over an abstention especially when a new meta has jsut dropped but others have already said that. Hopefully there will be more from most of the council about why they voted a certain way, that's the one criticism I kinda agree with.
 
This is really uninformed.

Xavgb is currently in STour and WCOP qualifiers, two insanely time intensive tournaments that are both pre-HOME. It is very reasonable for him not to have had a lot of time over 2 full days to play, which is what we had between Regieleki vote and the second vote.

Would you rather an uninformed, guess vote or an abstain, which doesn’t impact the threshold at all? The latter is obviously better.

I wasn't aware that he was doing two tournaments at a time. I thought he was just inactive due to life. Cause I never seen anyone Abstain on every vote. The later is obviously better, so I apologize. What I would suggest is that keep the threshold as is, and if something like this occurs again, just go with >=2/3.


Edit: Seems, we have a solution. Sweet :blobwizard:
 
I wasn't aware that he was doing two tournaments at a time. I thought he was just inactive due to life. Cause I never seen anyone Abstain on every vote. The later is obviously better, so I apologize. What I would suggest is that keep the threshold as is, and if something like this occurs again, just go with >=2/3.
Thank you for listening. I understand things can seem weird, but I try to provide as much info as I can to everyone. It is very appreciated that many people are reasonable.

With this in mind, we are doing exactly that: any future 6-3 votes will be a ban now.
 
For all the people moaning about the QB threshold being lowered, do show me how many mons would have been unfairly banned in this generation and how many fairly banned mons would have been banned sooner had the threshold been as it is now at =2/3 vs >2/3 (or whatever it actually is)
 
I wasn't aware that he was doing two tournaments at a time. I thought he was just inactive due to life. Cause I never seen anyone Abstain on every vote. The later is obviously better, so I apologize. What I would suggest is that keep the threshold as is, and if something like this occurs again, just go with >=2/3.

Remember that people have lives, we often forget this sometimes about council members, as a reminder...
great writeup, really appreciate you guys discussing your votes. whilst i disagree with your Zama votes (id have voted the same as Star did), your reasoning makes sense, especially with the Wake comparison who was never broken and was only suspected out of collective inexperience. if you think the Zamas aren't as outright broken as something like Pao, it does make more sense to hold off for a few more days.


I think crowned is definitely outright broken, hero I think should be saved for a suspect personally
 
Thank you for listening. I understand things can seem weird, but I try to provide as much info as I can to everyone. It is very appreciated that many people are reasonable.

With this in mind, we are doing exactly that: any future 6-3 votes will be a ban now.

Just saw it now. Appreciate you and the councils hard work:)
 
I don't know, i'm not saying its not good in OU, its still really solid, but it kinda feels a lot worse and a little underwhelming sometimes this gen without its utility so I could see it, and if I want to use an offensive flying type, I would just use torn-t unless my team really needs the defensive qualities of zapdos, and I very much think its dropping this gen.

It lost defog... And that's kinda all the notable losses. It doesn't feel much worse, if at all and still has heaps of valuable defensive utility with the the fantastic typing and static being as obnoxious a disruptive tool as ever. Volt switch is valuable and the offensive presence is great too.
 
The transparency around the abstention that led to a quick policy review on the majority needed for QB could be considered a win (I also loved ABR's consideration of reducing the number of council members), plus having a council member explain his ideas behind the votes also turned out to be very satisfying.
I'm still hopeful about some exceptional ban before next week's end, or maybe an extra round of QB beyond schedule before the formal and lengthy suspects.
It wasn't a bad day after all. Let's let things happen. Survey is coming too. It's late here, good night and week everyone.
 
It lost defog... And that's kinda all the notable losses. It doesn't feel much worse, if at all and still has heaps of valuable defensive utility with the the fantastic typing and static being as obnoxious a disruptive tool as ever. Volt switch is valuable and the offensive presence is great too.
Remember it did lose roost pp and toxic too so that really hurts as well
 
It lost defog... And that's kinda all the notable losses. It doesn't feel much worse, if at all and still has heaps of valuable defensive utility with the the fantastic typing and static being as obnoxious a disruptive tool as ever. Volt switch is valuable and the offensive presence is great too.
i agree that zapdos is still worthy of ou but it did lean really heavily on defog for a good 4 generations so it's understandable for some people to think that's all it is. you have to remember that some of the people posting here weren't even born when zapdos was ravaging gens 1-3

but yeah, zapdos is ou. it checks tusk, which automatically gives it at least a spot on the vr
 
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Zapdos in UU is just what. Mon fits very well into the tier both offensively and defensively. It's not dropping.

yeah i genuinely believe Zapdos will end up at around A+ in viability, and may even be a top 10 mon given enough time.

here's some of its good matchups.

:zamazenta: he might stay, and if he does, zapdos is one of the better switchins to fighting+steel+dark coverage.
:great-tusk: a ground + fighting resist with recovery is huge! before we only had dragonite, who still struggled from being a physical mon. zap now switches into tusk and threatens with a hurricane + static.
:gholdengo: good vs scarf sets & twave recover 2atks balloon. ghold needs to fear heatwave
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 145-172 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:landorus-therian: is forced to run stone edge. zap actually punishes uturns and eqs from lando, and can deal significant permanent chip to it unlike other electrics.
:urshifu-rapid-strike: static and a higher speed means you realistically beat all urshifu sets.
:samurott-hisui: :volcanion: outspeeds, volt switches, free momentum
:zapdos-galar: :hawlucha: one of the few fighting/flying walls.
:tornadus-therian: takes hits from even offensive sets.
:garganacl: can break vs tera water garg, its best set rn imo
:sneasler: :roaring-moon: :meowscarada: fears static so can't spam u-turns
:corviknight: :toxapex: punishes common balance cores.

zap also likes rain, which is better than ever thanks to legion. it also appreciates lower knock distribution, since boots are now even safer than gen 8. tusk is an issue but that's always a momentum gain if they knock you on the switch.
 
yeah i genuinely believe Zapdos will end up at around A+ in viability, and may even be a top 10 mon given enough time.

here's some of its good matchups.

:zamazenta: he might stay, and if he does, zapdos is one of the better switchins to fighting+steel+dark coverage.
:great-tusk: a ground + fighting resist with recovery is huge! before we only had dragonite, who still struggled from being a physical mon. zap now switches into tusk and threatens with a hurricane + static.
:gholdengo: good vs scarf sets & twave recover 2atks balloon. ghold needs to fear heatwave
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 145-172 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:landorus-therian: is forced to run stone edge. zap actually punishes uturns and eqs from lando, and can deal significant permanent chip to it unlike other electrics.
:urshifu-rapid-strike: static and a higher speed means you realistically beat all urshifu sets.
:samurott-hisui: :volcanion: outspeeds, volt switches, free momentum
:zapdos-galar: :hawlucha: one of the few fighting/flying walls.
:tornadus-therian: takes hits from even offensive sets.
:garganacl: can break vs tera water garg, its best set rn imo
:sneasler: :roaring-moon: :meowscarada: fears static so can't spam u-turns
:corviknight: :toxapex: punishes common balance cores.

zap also likes rain, which is better than ever thanks to legion.

Zapdos doesn't beat Urshifu anymore, almost every Urshifu set runs Protective Pads/Punching Gloves as item. And Urshifu OHKO Zapdos after a single SD

+2 252 Atk Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 378-444 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
Zapdos doesn't beat Urshifu anymore, almost every Urshifu set runs Protective Pads/Punching Gloves as item. And Urshifu OHKO Zapdos after a single SD

+2 252 Atk Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 378-444 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
Urshifu has 98 speed, Zapdos has 100. you switch hard into Zap when Shifu hits the field. they either get paralysed (scarf), or are forced out.
 
Remember it did lose roost pp and toxic too so that really hurts as well

The roost nerf didn't hurt it that bad like it did other mons. And toxic was a very specific move that definitely was not standard so losing it, cuts a set option at worse but primary sets are still good. And at the time of writing this

yeah i genuinely believe Zapdos will end up at around A+ in viability, and may even be a top 10 mon given enough time.

here's some of its good matchups.

:zamazenta: he might stay, and if he does, zapdos is one of the better switchins to fighting+steel+dark coverage.
:great-tusk: a ground + fighting resist with recovery is huge! before we only had dragonite, who still struggled from being a physical mon. zap now switches into tusk and threatens with a hurricane + static.
:gholdengo: good vs scarf sets & twave recover 2atks balloon. ghold needs to fear heatwave
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 145-172 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
:landorus-therian: is forced to run stone edge. zap actually punishes uturns and eqs from lando, and can deal significant permanent chip to it unlike other electrics.
:urshifu-rapid-strike: static and a higher speed means you realistically beat all urshifu sets.
:samurott-hisui: :volcanion: outspeeds, volt switches, free momentum
:zapdos-galar: :hawlucha: one of the few fighting/flying walls.
:tornadus-therian: takes hits from even offensive sets.
:garganacl: can break vs tera water garg, its best set rn imo
:sneasler: :roaring-moon: :meowscarada: fears static so can't spam u-turns
:corviknight: :toxapex: punishes common balance cores.

zap also likes rain, which is better than ever thanks to legion. it also appreciates lower knock distribution, since boots are now even safer than gen 8. tusk is an issue but that's always a momentum gain if they knock you on the switch.

Coral fan has a great write up of nice match ups for Zap.
 
I'd like to make an extensive post about what I firmly believe is the single best support mon in the entire game, and a top 5-10 mon in the entire metagame altogether: Galarian Slowking. I think that it's pretty widely accepted to be a fantastic mon, but I think that it's the ultimate support mon in this relatively fresh metagame and that it deserves some serious time in the spotlight.

1685922833189.png

What does Galarian Slowking do?

Glowking's got a lot going for it, but it's generally accepted to be a hard-hitting defensive pivot that provides a ton of defensive utility and offensive pressure at the same time. It's got a good typing, fantastic bulk, solid Special Attack, an amazing movepool, Regenerator, and the immense power of STAB Future Sight alongside Slowking's signature move, Chilly Reception. More on Chilly Reception later; this move is a fucking gamechanger.

That being said, it's more than just one of the best pivots in the game. It was already a top threat in SS OU by doing that with its classic Assault Vest set, but in this metagame a lot has changed.

What changed for Galarian Slowking?

The tier prior to HOME had a gross lack of strong Psychic-types. The best you'd end up seeing were Hatterene and the occasional Indeedee+Armarouge PsySpam core, and Slowking had its place but wasn't super splashable. Glowking faces basically no competition, from anything prior to HOME or anything new or returning alongside it, in the role it fills besides its Kantonian cousin. What did come with it, though, was a massive influx of powerful Fighting-types, ranging from both Zamazenta formes to Sneasler to Urshifu-R, and other strong wallbreakers like Enamorus-Incarnate and Ursaluna, that all benefit from some part of Glowking's wide support movepool. Of course, mons like Chien-Pao, Great Tusk, Kingambit, and the like also really like its support, but still. The Future Sight+Wallbreaker core was a prominent part of SS OU ever since Urshifu-S tore the metagame a new one, and it stayed prominent even after it was banned through Urshifu-R, Weavile, and the like.

That being said, Glowking got access to a move that completely alters how it plays the game: CHILLY RECEPTION. This move sets Snow and pivots Glowking out, and with it very much living up to the "SLOW" in its name, this mon went from becoming a powerful offensive pivot to becoming one of the best offensive pivots ever. Now, this isn't a completely new move; its Kantonian cousin had this move all generation, and used it to great effect alongside mons like Baxcalibur. But in regular Slowking's case, this move simply replaced the Teleport that had been removed from its movepool going into Gen 9; Glowking, however, never got Teleport last generation. Getting that slow switch move changes everything, since Glowking can use its bulk, typing, Regenerator, and ability to force switches to get a free slow Chilly Reception off and bring something in.

That's still not everything, though; Glowking has also gained access to Terastallization like everything else, and it can utilize the mechanic extremely well as far as support mons go, and if it wants to go on the offensive it can still take advantage of the mechanic very nicely. Moreover, Trick Room has proven itself to be a viable strategy for the first time in a very long time thanks to the infamous Cocaine Bear, Ursaluna, and with Magearna's recent quickban (good) Glowking is finding itself in a prime position to set up Trick Room and get this absolute behemoth of a mon in safely, guaranteeing it gets statused and giving it an opportunity to obliterate an entire team with OHKO after OHKO.

What does Galarian Slowking support?

If it hits hard but needs to preserve its HP and thus can't directly switch into an attack, Glowking facilitates (or even enables) it. Here are a few examples:

:sneasler: :urshifu-rapid-strike: :zamazenta: :zamazenta-crowned: all of these Fighting-types really like Glowking's strong Future Sight, as well as the obvious abillity for it to pivot them in with Chilly Reception. A STAB Close Combat, Surging Strikes, or boosted Body Press is already very strong, but with Future Sight support these moves' few drawbacks are largely mitigated. A Toxapex aiming to switch into a Fighting-type move risks getting obliterated by the Future Sight, and a Dark-type sponging the Future Sight gets OHKOed by a Close Combat or Body Press.

:ursaluna: :kingambit: They're bulky, they hit hard, but they're incredibly slow. Now, both are phenomenal mons as is despite their Speed, but both appreciate Glowking's Future Sight support letting them wallbreak more easily. If it opts to run Trick Room as support, these two become powerful sweepers even against fast threats that could outspeed them, live a Kingambit Sucker Punch, and possibly OHKO them. Ursaluna can become a lategame cleaner and an early-game wallbreaker all the same.

:toxapex: :tornadus-therian: :amoonguss: :alomomola: Other Regenerator mons like the slow switches provided by Glowking, and they can form a core that can be quite difficult to break past.

What sets can Galarian Slowking pull off?

The short answer? A lot. But with how customizable it is, there's a little bit of a longer answer here, too:

Slowking-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Chilly Reception
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Beam / Slack Off

Shoutouts to Alkazoth in the OU Discord for sharing this second one with me!

Slowking-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Shuca Berry / Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 21 Spe
- Future Sight
- Chilly Reception
- Surf / Slack Off
- Sludge Bomb

So here are two potential Chilly Reception sets. They're good; they do what they need to do, and sometimes they can pull off a lot more. That said, you can mess around with these IVs in quite a few ways; sometimes you just want to outpace Clodsire, sometimes you want to just outslow a max-Speed Glowking, and sometimes you want to go as slow as humanly possible to get the slowest Chilly Reception possible.

Slowking-Galar @ Shuca Berry / Colbur Berry / Mental Herb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
- Sludge Bomb / Psyshock / Future Sight

The Trick Room setter, which can facilitate a Kingambit or Ursaluna sweep with ease.

Slowking-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying / Fairy
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic / Sludge Bomb
- Surf / Ice Beam
- Flamethrower / Slack Off

If you want Glowking to go on the offensive, here's a possible option! Tera Flying allows it to set up on Great Tusk, and then it can utilize its absurd coverage and great power after a boost to break past a team's defensive backbone. This is an underrated set that I firmly believe is worth exploring.

Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy / Dark / Flying
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Slack Off / Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Sludge Bomb / Ice Beam

Or you could run Trick+Black Sludge and cripple something with a bunch of free passive damage. Mons that rely on their items for longevity HATE this!

Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 124 SpA / 120 SpD
Calm / Sassy Nature
- Future Sight / Psychic
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Scald / Ice Beam / Earthquake

Or you could go back to basics, with the classic Assault Vest+Future Sight set! This is the best check to special Iron Valiant we've ever gotten, and even Earth Power Enamorus doesn't have the easiest time beating it; hell, even physical Iron Valiant sets kinda rely on Knock Off to beat it. I think the Chilly Reception sets are overall the better ones, but this set is the epitome of what Glowking has always been about and is still a blast to use in my experience.

Conclusion:

Galarian Slowking is a mon that is respected by many at this point, but I think it's outright one of the best mons in the tier and will only improve as time goes on. The Chilly Reception sets are gamechangers for the metagame's landscape, make no mistake, but I think this mon is so incredibly customizable that you could pull off a lot of different things with it, and pull them all off very well.

So go on; use Galarian Slowking more! There's so much room for experimentation with this mon, and the support it provides is unrivalled. I'd easily argue that this is one of the best glues in the entire tier.
 
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