Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Mega Breloom said:
To be fair, at the start of the gen Treads was better in a lot of match ups (always outspeeding scarf chi-yu with booster or a spin was super good to keep the fish in check) but with some bans and some additions to the tier those match ups became bad for Treads.
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No offense but that's one scenario and that's not even a good enough reason to prefer Treads over Tusk, because you still couldn't switch-in into Chi-Yu, booster is also one time use and it's usually preferred on mons that are able to sweep or at least knock 1-2 mons. Treads is too weak in order to have that happen (able to sweep). I understand that Treads had / still has it's own niche but viability wise it's not close to the various things that many tusks sets can do.
 
awyp said:
No offense but that's one scenario and that's not even a good enough reason to prefer Treads over Tusk, because you still couldn't switch-in into Chi-Yu, booster is also one time use and it's usually preferred on mons that are able to sweep or at least knock 1-2 mons. Treads is too weak in order to have that happen (able to sweep). I understand that Treads had / still has it's own niche but viability wise it's not close to the various things that many tusks sets can do.
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Not saying that it was a full counter, but it was more than enough back then due the nature of the meta before Chi-Yu, Ape and Ciclyzar bans, the meta was too HO oriented that Treads lack of power wasn't a big deal because most stuff was frail anyway. In that sense, Treads speed tier was great back then especially with Volt-switch making easier to keep the momentum, however after chi-yu's ban and fat becoming more relevant, stuff like Meowscarada gained more popularity and new additions with better speed were the causes of Treads fall.
 
SnackWasTaken said:
Amoongus stuffs entire lower body into a shoe, a mushroom in a shoe. Enamorus wears shoes on hands, uses shoes as shield. As for glim idk how the hell it wears shoe
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images - 2023-07-12T154937.301.jpeg

This actually makes sense, instead of getting a lot of them for all their feet they just get one big enough (like the ones some big legendaries would wear) to cover the lower part of thier bobies, we have seen this on other Nintendo games.
 
awyp said:
After playing the ladder quite a bit, Kingambit is a bit much (definitely centralizing). I feel like if Kingambit ends up not getting banned there should at least be Tera Preview at the end of the eventual tera suspect test (if it happens), tera preview would literally fix so much stuff on these end game matchups. (And you still get to keep the gen 9 mechanic untouched)
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Agreed with everything in regards of Kingambit. My question is that, what is the timeline of a suspect test? Do we really have to wait after World Cup to make a decision? This monster needs to go ASAP. :blobpex:

ianlazerbeem said:
Literally zero people oppose tera preview. There are zero people who would be upset about it becoming the norm. The only argument that exists against it is "it won't solve all the problems of Tera" which is likely true but is not an obstacle with the alternative being no action. "Blind Tera" is a concept that ONLY exists on Smogon at this point. A suspect is not a necessary prerequisite to adding tera preview, and spending 2 weeks in a suspect where the 2 options are tera preview and no action would be a waste of time and a waste of a suspect, akin to suspecting Flutter Mane or Palafin. We all know unrestricted tera is an issue and we should make the council feel comfortable "quick restricting" this mechanic since this action would be one that no one opposes.

we need tera preview passed as quickly as possible. We can assess from there if more action is necessary, but there is zero reason to not implement tera preview right now.
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I don't even know what to say anymore. :blobshrug:
 
WildWave said:
Agreed with everything in regards of Kingambit. My question is that, what is the timeline of a suspect test? Do we really have to wait after World Cup to make a decision? This monster needs to go ASAP. :blobpex:



I don't even know what to say anymore. :blobshrug:
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There hasn't been any word from the council outside that there will be a discussion thread opened up separately from this thread to converse about tera. So there doesn't look like a timeline in regards to Kingambit suspect test at the moment.
 
Honestly shocked Volcarona was seen as urgently needing a quick ban…

..meanwhile in regards to Mr gambit, lol.

volcarona/gambit/eleki and maybe urshifu are critical Pokémon at the inflexion point of “Tera is breaking them”.

everything before Eleki/Volcarona/urshifu was arguably broken with or without Tera. Although I wouldn’t include annihilape, espathra and maybe even super dolphin?

now that the discussion is going more towards Tera, I’d hypothesise that if Tera stayed, the total pokemon at that inflexion point might look something like this:
  • Clearly OP: Eleki
  • Clearly OP: Kingambit
  • Clearly OP: Urshifu
  • Clearly OP: espathra
  • Clearly OP: annihilape
  • Contentious Volcarona
  • Contentious dragapult
  • Contentious zamazenta-H
  • Contentious Iron Valiant
  • And maybe even contentious baxcalibur, sneasler, garganacl?
So …

basically, it may vary slightly, but there’s at least 8 or so pokemon at that inflexion point.

the point where, with unrestricted-Tera, there’s potentially 8 less Pokémon in OU.

the exact domino effect is hard to predict, but in theory it could go from gambit, to dragapult, etc.

..

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the Pokémon’s at the inflexion point?

More Pokémon may come soon too

..

the Tera vote will come down to do you want these Pokémon [that are currently at the inflexion] in OU, or do you want Tera?

Tera is not broken, it’s nothing like dynamax. It just causes many Pokémon to become way too OP
 
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Ctann said:
Honestly shocked Volcarona was seen as urgently needing a quick ban…

..meanwhile in regards to Mr gambit, lol.

volcarona/gambit/eleki and maybe urshifu are critical Pokémon at the inflexion point of “Tera is breaking them”.

everything before Eleki/Volcarona/urshifu was arguably broken with or without Tera. Although I wouldn’t include annihilape, espathra and maybe even super dolphin?

now that the discussion is going more towards Tera, I’d hypothesise that if Tera stayed, the total pokemon at that inflexion point might look something like this:
  • Clearly OP: Eleki
  • Clearly OP: Kingambit
  • Clearly OP: Urshifu
  • Clearly OP: espathra
  • Clearly OP: annihilape
  • Contentious Volcarona
  • Contentious dragapult
  • Contentious zamazenta-H
  • Contentious Iron Valiant
  • And maybe even contentious baxcalibur, sneasler, garganacl?
So …

basically, it may vary slightly, but there’s at least 8 or so pokemon at that inflexion point.

the point where, with unrestricted-Tera, there’s potentially 8 less Pokémon in OU.

the exact domino effect is hard to predict, but in theory it could go from gambit, to dragapult, etc.

..

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the Pokémon’s at the inflexion point?

More Pokémon may come soon too

..

the Tera vote will come down to do you want these Pokémon [that are currently at the inflexion] in OU, or do you want Tera?

Tera is not broken, it’s nothing like dynamax. It just causes many Pokémon to become way too OP
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Genuinely stupid idea, but like, what if we just dont tip the first second domino? Volc was, as noted by many other commenters, sort of glue holding back gambit and other threats from their full potential, as well as provide useful coverage when things are dicey in the teambuilder. Really, we should ask ourselves what good has come out of a volc ban, besides less volc, and less volc is le fuckin obvious.
Kingambit and possibly Valiant have only grown stronger, while Ghold is only stopped by a Kowtow Cleave, instead of burastah baan or whatever fire type move that lepidopteran ran. In all likelyhood, shit's only gotten worse instead of better for all but the volc h8rs, but thats me assuming rather than asserting.
 
I think Sneasler's contentiousness might be an exception in that it's not really tied to Tera. Outside of the Unburden Acrobatics set I rarely even see Sneasler use Tera. For me it's more that Dire Claw backed up by its Fighting STAB makes it extremely difficult to play around for many team archetypes without risking getting fucked over by an untimely Dire Claw sleep/paralysis.

I would argue the problem is entirely with Dire Claw and not Sneasler as a package but we already had this discussion with Houndstone and Last Respects. As the decision was to ban Houndstone in that case despite it being a complete trashmon without Last Respects, I can't see a Dire Claw ban being on the table when Sneasler would actually be reasonably threatening even without it.

That being said, recently this community has a strange fetish for turning this game into a slot machine simulator with uncompetitive RNG-based mechanics (I guess when you're bad at the game, removing control of the game from the hands of both players is a net benefit to you) so I think action against Sneasler isn't all that likely any time soon. If the broader community doesn't think MonoClaw is uncompetitive cheese, I doubt you could convince them Dire Claw or Sneasler as a whole is.
 
Divine Retribution said:
I think Sneasler's contentiousness might be an exception in that it's not really tied to Tera. Outside of the Unburden Acrobatics set I rarely even see Sneasler use Tera. For me it's more that Dire Claw backed up by its Fighting STAB makes it extremely difficult to play around for many team archetypes without risking getting fucked over by an untimely Dire Claw sleep/paralysis.

I would argue the problem is entirely with Dire Claw and not Sneasler as a package but we already had this discussion with Houndstone and Last Respects. As the decision was to ban Houndstone in that case despite it being a complete trashmon without Last Respects, I can't see a Dire Claw ban being on the table when Sneasler would actually be reasonably threatening even without it.

That being said, recently this community has a strange fetish for turning this game into a slot machine simulator with uncompetitive RNG-based mechanics (I guess when you're bad at the game, removing control of the game from the hands of both players is a net benefit to you) so I think action against Sneasler isn't all that likely any time soon. If the broader community doesn't think MonoClaw is uncompetitive cheese, I doubt you could convince them Dire Claw or Sneasler as a whole is.
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I've played vs a fair bit of Sneasler ala cart, and let me tell you that Dire Claw isn't the full problem. 130 Attack + 120 Speed + Unburden is the issue. If you don't have priority, and they're on something greedy af like Sash SD, you can just lose at the drop of a hat. Most of the ones I've ran into are Jolly Life Orb, Jolly Band, or Adamant Scarf. Might've seen one or two Sash sets, but Corvi/SR ruined that for them.
Poison/Fighting by itself is a major powerhouse STAB combo. It's like Fire/Fighting, you just hit so many things for neutral+ damage that it isn't even funny. Gholdengo is a ""good"" check if they don't pack Fire Punch or Night Slash. If they do, you're kinda just SOL.
 
SpritePony said:
I've played vs a fair bit of Sneasler ala cart, and let me tell you that Dire Claw isn't the full problem. 130 Attack + 120 Speed + Unburden is the issue. If you don't have priority, and they're on something greedy af like Sash SD, you can just lose at the drop of a hat. Most of the ones I've ran into are Jolly Life Orb, Jolly Band, or Adamant Scarf. Might've seen one or two Sash sets, but Corvi/SR ruined that for them.
Poison/Fighting by itself is a major powerhouse STAB combo. It's like Fire/Fighting, you just hit so many things for neutral+ damage that it isn't even funny. Gholdengo is a ""good"" check if they don't pack Fire Punch or Night Slash. If they do, you're kinda just SOL.
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Agreed. Dire Claw is stupid and uncompetitive but from playing with and against it its Unburden sweeper sets they are the real problem. Even in this massively speed crept meta where Pult and Zama are on a lot of good teams and there are so many ways for others to boost theirs to that level (chiefly Booster Energy) it sits in such a good speed tier especially after an Unburden boost and it puts enough offensive pressure on most teams that it'll probably get a chance to SD and at the very least put a large dent in the opponent's team. Besides ghold, corv, and pex not much can reliably switch into it atm (even then that's only if its not running fire punch or tera ground). This might change with the DLCs bringing stuff like Gliscor and legendaries that seem to be poison/[x] type (assuming theyre actually good) but atm it's one of the more egregious examples of something that can be given once chance to setup, a chance that it commonly gets, and just completely wreck your team alongside valiant which is potentially suspect worthy imo and bax which is more borderline but subDD sets are kinda bonkers.
 
artificialdeath said:
Agreed. Dire Claw is stupid and uncompetitive but from playing with and against it its Unburden sweeper sets they are the real problem. Even in this massively speed crept meta where Pult and Zama are on a lot of good teams and there are so many ways for others to boost theirs to that level (chiefly Booster Energy) it sits in such a good speed tier especially after an Unburden boost and it puts enough offensive pressure on most teams that it'll probably get a chance to SD and at the very least put a large dent in the opponent's team. Besides ghold, corv, and pex not much can reliably switch into it atm (even then that's only if its not running fire punch or tera ground). This might change with the DLCs bringing stuff like Gliscor and legendaries that seem to be poison/[x] type (assuming theyre actually good) but atm it's one of the more egregious examples of something that can be given once chance to setup, a chance that it commonly gets, and just completely wreck your team alongside valiant which is potentially suspect worthy imo and bax which is more borderline but subDD sets are kinda bonkers.
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Please don't mention SubDD to me. :zonger: I've been screwed by SubDD Pults left and right since SV came out. I'm lucky that I RARELY run into SubDD Baxes. (Those that I did run into ran into a terrible fate ala Skeledirge.)
 
SpritePony said:
I sincerely hope you guys take into account the suggestions for the potential Tera suspect that was briefly covered in this thread. Specifically the multi-phase trial run for it.
Tera is one of those mechanics where unforeseen circumstance can come from it not existing, even if Tera itself causes some Pokemon to be over the top.
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i've been reading. not necessarily agreeing with a lot, but reading nonetheless despite by LoA/vacation last week

and there will be another Tera thread for more ideas to surface if needed
 
Finchinator said:
i've been reading. not necessarily agreeing with a lot, but reading nonetheless despite by LoA/vacation last week

and there will be another Tera thread for more ideas to surface if needed
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I hope we can all agree that it’s essential we still use ranked choice voting for each option, but with a single question vote.

This is because, in the previous tera suspect vote, I speculate that some individuals who initially favored voting for tera at team preview might have opted for "no action" in the first question to prevent a complete ban on tera by voting for "action."

Cuz imagine you were a voter and you slightly preferred “tera at team preview” to “no action” on tera, but you definitely did not want tera to be fully banned. You might’ve voted for “no action” in the first question because you didn’t want to risk “action” winning and the ban tera completely voters outnumbering the tera at team preview voters.
 
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